No Laying Up - Golf Podcast - NLU Podcast, Episode 490: Michigan Trip Recap

Episode Date: October 20, 2021

With Season 7 of Tourist Sauce set to air on our YouTube channel this Wednesday, October 20, we spend 3+ hours recapping our trip through Michigan. We chat about the trip coming together, and each course that we played, including: Detroit Golf Club, Rackham, University of Michigan, Pilgrim's Run, Diamond Springs, The Mines, Forest Dunes, The Loop, Kingsley, Belvedere, Bay Harbor, Boyne Highlands (Hills), Wawashkamo, and Greywalls. Enjoy! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

I'm going to be the right club today. Yeah. That's better than most. How about him? That is better than most. Better than most. Expect anything different. Better than most. in Michigan if you are only a podcast listener and not familiar with what Torah Sauses it is a YouTube series we have done we are approaching season 7 is premiering this Wednesday October 20th 9 p.m. on our YouTube channel we travel around many different areas of the world this time we traveled around the state

of Michigan filming documenting golf courses and we always do record a podcast to compliment the individual episodes of the series kind of gives us a little bit of time to flesh out our thoughts on the golf courses. The state is a whole we get into it a little bit on this one. There's some ups and downs to this one. You know, there's some controversial opinions that will that will stand out when we get to a particular course towards the middle of the trip. But the series is presented by our friends at precision pro. We greatly appreciate their support of the series. We the series is presented by our friends at Precision Pro. We greatly appreciate their support of the series. We'll be telling you obviously more about them as the season

goes along. And I know a lot of you guys have supported them buying their range fighters throughout the course of the year. They greatly appreciate that. So this episode here is brought to you by our friends at the stack. If you are interested in gaining an extra 30 yards off the tee, maybe you have a little wedge into a tough par four at your home course. I don't know who wouldn't be interested in that, but the stack system may be the solution you're looking for. It provides speed training for golfers by pairing precision hardware. It's a single club configurable into 30 unique weight combinations

with an industry changing training app. The stack app acts as a personal trainer with customized speed programs that dynamically change based on the golfer's performance while also guiding workouts and recording key training metrics. It's basically like Peloton for speed training and get this. You can even talk your swing speed into the app while using it using their voice entry feature. So your whole session can be done hands-free or wearing AirPods or whatever you use and it even cheers for you when you set a personal record with the weight system. The stack system was created by leading golf biochemist Dr. Sashio McKenzie

and the vice president of fitting and performance at paying Marty Jertson. These two guys aren't just PhDs and engineers. Sashio is a two-time defending club champion at his course and Marty has played in six major championships. What are the experts saying Chris Combo, the coach of the longest hitter on the PGA tour, and the PGA tour history, Bryce Neshambo says, the stack is by far the best speed training system available. It's the easiest way for a golfer to reach their maximum speed potential. So join the dozens of tour players and thousands of amateur golfers that continue to set new

personal best by training with the stack. If you're not getting faster, you're getting passed. Check it out at the stacksystem.com. Use code, no laying up all one word to save 10% at checkout. Let's get to the pot. Taurusauce, Michigan, season seven. Gosh, we have a lot, a lot to talk about in today. Hopefully, I'm not sure exactly when the set-up is going to come out, but we will have a nine-part video series on our travels through the state of Michigan coming out. Sometimes, I believe this October, DJ. Is that correct? That's exactly right.

Okay, very much looking forward to that. The videos don't always give us the best outlet to fully verse our experiences in a long form way on the golf courses, our favorite holes, just, you know, sometimes just doesn't fit in there. So we love to make complimentary podcasts that talk about our trip, how it came together, why we ended up at the certain courses,

and just overall our overall experiences, gives you a little chance to debate things. I think we might debate a few things today. So, solid here, obviously it came together, why we ended up at the certain courses, and just overall experiences, gives you a little chance to debate things. I think we might debate a few things today. So, solid here, obviously, DJ Pi, you heard his voice, hello, D.H. Greetings. Neil is here in the Killhouse, Neil, hello. Hello, gentlemen. T.C. is here, got a lot of scorecards in front of them.

Big, big scorecard, guys. Big scorecard, guys. A lot of directions we're gonna go with this. And the big guy is calling in from the mountain times on Hello Big. Good morning, guys. I cannot wait to embrace debate this morning. We, uh... Skip, skip.

What's gonna be the most controversial? What do we think is gonna be the most, the strongest debate? The loop. Yeah, not even, yeah, it's not even gonna be close. I don't even know if there's debate out of anything else. I think we're all pretty universal on most of the other stuff. I think we're gonna agree there. Well, T.C., you are the resident logistic coordinator.

What is the official title of your role here with NoLeng up? VP of the TC way. VP of the TC way. No, I think, you know, please spare the other guys. You're, you know, if you are a 10-year-old guy, please spare the other guys. Direct all complaints to draw. They just have a message and just send it to me.

I'll fall on the sword for the guys there. I will say maybe the most positive feedback I can recall seeing in terms of like, what our itinerary was. Like some people were like, hey, you got to play here, but most, most of our people were like, dude, I'm from Michigan,

like you guys covered it in this season. We tried to, we certainly tried to. There's not a lot of golf in the thumb, which is over east of Saginaw and Flint and Bay City. We did get up to the UP as we'll talk about incredibly diverse states. Our pasties can prove that. Exactly. We have receipts from the pasties.

We did spend time in Lake Huron. That's right. Which Lake Huron, like that's the creepiest of the great. It's the forgotten lake I would argue. The creepiest? Yeah, it's just, it's just creepy. Can you unpack that a little bit? I don't know, it's just, it's just weird.

It's just, it's just, it's just, it's just, it's just, it's just, it's just, it's just, it's just, it's just, it's just, it's just, it's just, it's just, it's it's just, it's just, it's just, it's just, it's just, it's just, it's just, it's it's just, it's just, it's just, it's just, it's just, it's just, it's just, it's just, it's it's just, it's just, it's just, it's just, it's just, it's just, it's just, it's just, it's just, can you unpack that a little bit? I don't know, it's just, it's just weird. It's not forgotten. Nobody knows what they're doing up there, you know. It's just a weird, there's no, it's not very scenic, it's not a great shoreline, it's, I don't know, I just, like, you're on kind of creeps me out a little bit. Take it all away, like, you're not interested. You know, so we started in Detroit, wanted to get a good sense of Detroit

or as good a sense of Detroit as we could get. Before we talk about where we started, why Michigan? Why do we go to Michigan? The biggest of Detroit or as good a sense of Detroit as we could get before we talk about where we started Why Michigan? Why don't we go to Michigan? The biggest thing is it's like a super diverse place as far as A as far as golf is concerned You've got lakeside golf. You've got classic designs from Alistair McKenzie You've got new designs from a host of you know modern architects There's how many golf courses in the state of Michigan? There are just under a thousand golf courses in the state of Michigan? There are just under a thousand golf courses

in the state of Michigan. Thank you for asking. How does that align with what you were expecting? I don't know, you should ask Randy that question. Okay. Because he estimated higher than I did for the record. Randy did, I didn't speak to that. Yeah, I guess there's 6,000 courses in Michigan

and I'll stand by that. It feels like it, right? How could we possibly know? Yeah, I think there are a lot of them that just aren't counted. When you add up the mid-trick golf courses, the backyard courses, the golf simulators, and the winter golf, come on.

I mean, by the time we got to the back nine at Greywalls, it felt like we had played 6000 golf courses. So, you know, you've got city golf in Detroit, a little bit in Grand Rapids. You've got the dunes over on the west side of the state, forest golf, you've got what feels like mountain golf a bit boy and a gray wall. So there's all sorts of stuff.

Michigan's very, very proud place as well. It's got a distinct sense of place and uniqueness as far as the culture goes as well, even, you know, different parts of the state, great beer culture, great food culture. So I think all of that should shine through just great people as well. And then you would say on top of that, the accessibility of the golf in this state and the price for some of the experiences we had is kind of blew me away a little bit in terms

of, I've kind of lost a little bit of hope in terms of finding like, you know, it may be just because we're, where we live, there's not good public golf, it's just a fact. And I just can't imagine, you know, aside from Jack's beach, which is very crowded these days, it's hard to picture like having a place like Pilgrims Run or Diamond Springs or the mines,

like right in your backyard, if you lived in Grand Rapids, or if you lived in Detroit driving up to Forest Dunes and playing there is a lot like what we have here with Streamsong nearby. It just, it punches above its weight in terms of accessible golf. And just like stuff, I was maybe a little worried

about like stuff popping on camera and the eye candy of the golf courses, but like I'm not even remotely worried about that. Well, that's what I was gonna say. I wanna formally apologize to Mr. Big who brought up the Michigan season many years ago. I think before we did California, right? And we had done Australia-

Yeah, heels of Scotland. No, before Scotland. That was- I think it was after Scotland. It was when we tried to do them in back-to-back months. Yeah, and Randy was kind of floating like, man, I think Michigan we could do some pretty compelling stuff. And I think we were all kind of, at least for me, like I just hadn't spent enough time there.

I didn't really know what we were getting into. I think I was a little worried. I'm like, man, what's it gonna look like if we go from Australia to Scotland to Michigan? Is that gonna feel like a let down? And I will say, I don't think we quite probably had the tools in our toolbox to be able to pull off the Michigan season back then. I think it's a lot harder to really capture that sense of place like you were talking about, Tron, which I think we did a pretty cool job of this week and I'm excited for people to see the videos.

But all that is a long way of saying, like, I mean, Michigan's up there with anything I think we've ever done. It was awesome. And it blew me away for all the reasons you guys said and I can't wait to keep talking about it. One thing I'd add, just overall vibe, Michigan takes summer seriously. Oh, gosh. Yeah thing I'd add, just overall vibe, Michigan takes summer seriously.

Oh, yeah. I feel like, and they, you know, summers of full context. Yeah, they cherish it. They, as Nick Kelly, who came with us, helped with a lot of the bringing this to life from a, you know, photographic standpoint, they recreate hard.

Yeah, so all you mentioned, it almost feels like you're up a little bit. Yeah, it's like totally, and that vibe is, to me contagious, of like, man, I need to cherish this because everybody else here, they want to be outside, they want to be active, and then they want to have a cold beer. And that is, you know, I could spend the rest of my life doing that. That's why, aligns with your interest.

That aligns with some of my principles for sure. So I think two things to kind of point out, A, this season, it feels like it's very approachable as a set of kind of long weekend trips, right? So you could go to Grand Rapids for a long weekend, you could go to the Traverse City area for a long weekend, you go to the Boine, Charlowboy area for a long weekend, you go up to the UP for a long weekend, that sort of thing. So I think, you know, granted, like in these domestic trips are actually harder from a planning perspective

because we're constantly on the road. I think we should- You're basically packing in a bunch of different trips. Exactly, yeah. Exactly. Whereas, you know, if we go to Scotland or somewhere like that, granted, I think we do Scotland a little bit differently than we did initially, or Australia or Ireland,

like we're, there's more density, I think, in the courses or a little bit. You just don't have to move around. Or centralized around certain towns and stuff. So that's one thing. And then, too, just as far as what we left off, obviously, you'll hear about where we did go, where we didn't go. A, Detroit is just, it's a big beast. You've got so much good classic golf.

So. Like a private golf as well. Yeah a good private golf. Yeah, yeah I think you know certainly tried Oakland Hills. They just reopened They haven't had like any member play since the renovation so they're chock full member play couldn't get on there We looked at meadowbrook, but we thought you know where we did play was probably a better Summation or approximation of Detroit golf, but like you go to you get a Detroit and play seven days, 36 whole days and play unbelievable private golf up there. We kind of skipped over Kalamazoo, battle Creek, Lansing, and then down on that Southwest

coast to like lost dunes and the dunes club and that sort of thing. We decided to really shine a light on Grand Rapids. We did not under travel. I will say that too. You're kind of covered off a lot of places we didn't go, but you'll see too quickly in our route that we covered a lot of ground. And then also feel a little bit like more Chicago area, a little bit to me. It's to that whole Southwest corner. Yeah, because no game. It's very like weekend, you know, drive out on Saturday morning and play golf here. Yeah, and then, so DJ and I, on the day,

we left Grand Rapids and drove up to Forest Dooms. We actually went all along the coast, went through Holland, Grand Haven, Muskegon, Manistee. Nobody turns a two hour drive into an eight hour drive like me and T.C. One up through. It's like you guys getting in your process.

It's truly a stuff. But we did. You want to drive four hours out of the way, just so we can see this golf course for six minutes? Hell yeah. So the biggest thing that people are going to say is, oh, you guys didn't go to Arcadia Bluffs. Nope. No Arcadia? Yeah.

That's going to be the old head of this season, which we certainly tried. I really wanted to see the South course. I've played the Bluffs course before. DJ and I stopped and drowned from off property. I will add, wish them nothing but the best, but yeah, they're not big on filming. Not down. Not big on filming.

Yeah, it was a hard pass from the boys at Arcadia Bluffs. And then, yeah, a couple, a few courses that we didn't make it to, like hill up in Bula There's another one called Pinecroft up your crystal lake just some really really fun little old school courses up there And then otherwise I think you know plenty of plenty more courses We could have played it at Boeing like I'm sure there'll be some a lot of different ways we could have gone Heather, you know people ride for the Heather course up there or even the Ross course We played the Hills course and then there's a the Ross course, we played the Hills course.

And then there's a few up in the, up in the UP, up near Eskinawa area, the island resort, a couple of cool courses up there too. So all that's to be said, like it's, you know, I think we scratch the surface with Michigan, but it's tough to, it's a big surface. Well, with that, without further delay, let's get right into the golf courses.

We're going to, we divided up the courses. Each person here is going to lead a few different courses and talk about some of the highlights of it and lead a spirited discussion. First up, first stop, we divided and conquered TC Randy and I went to Rackham in Detroit. Public golf course, we'll talk about shortly, but Neil and DJ went to Detroit golf club

to play the North course. You know, what can you tell us about the North course at Detroit Golf Club? Yeah. But the house that Bryson built, he could argue, or the house that Henry Ford and his boys built, I would say. In a much more true sense. You know, a little history Detroit Golf Club found in 1899. I think the true course, the 36 whole complex that we played really got started in 1906 and the 1913 and 1916.

You know, the OG Horus Rackham, we got to get Horus on the wall and Horus is placed at the birdhouse. Rackham was the first lawyer for Henry Ford. He bought, I think, five shares of Ford and everybody told him not to like all the automobile to novelty. It's it's it's going away. Horses have been around for thousands of years. Yeah, the the automobile is not going to be anything. Well, it turns out those shares were bought back from him by Henry Ford's son and you know, I think it netted them like somewhere between 12 and 20 million dollars. He became basically a professional philanthropist and it sounds like if you wanted to get anything done in Detroit

from an arts and culture scene, the zoo being an example, Rackum, which we'll talk about in a second, you went and talked to Horace. So he helped him buy the land to build the 36 holes. He was friends with Donald Ross from spending time down at Pinehurst. And Alec Ross. And Alec Ross, who is Donald's brother,

who became the head pro at Detroit Golf Club. Sounds like they were all thick as thieves. So, Donald designed the North Course and the South Course, DJ, you and I played the North Course, and then a few of us played the South Course. It is a PGA Tour, a proper test of golf. Yeah. And it's in phenomenal shape.

The way I would describe the course, and well, I'll start with the complex first. Can I just start with that? It's a unit of a complex. Well, I was gonna say, just starting with that, like proper test of golf, it's interesting feedback to me because it is kind of pedestrian for the Tor Pros. Well, again, putting into perspective

how good those guys are, they show up. And I have some thoughts on that because that's how it was described to me. And I feel like the course, the strategy of the course was dictated heavily by the trees. And to me, I feel like the course, the strategy, the course was dictated heavily by the trees. And to me, the strategy of trees is much more like a math problem, where it's like on the tee you know, the strategy is obvious.

There's trees on the left, you got to be on this side of the fairway. It's basically dictating you have to hit this drawer or this fade. And for pros, that's, you know, it's a yes or no question. Well, also, I feel like they have the answer key a lot of the times where it's like, oh, I'll just hit it over the truth. Yeah, that too. But whereas with, like, when we go play the loop, we talk about the loop. It's all about like, oh my God, it's 100 yards wide.

It loels you into thinking, oh, I can do this anywhere, but then, oh, actually, I can't, like, I didn't think that through. So it's more of a discussion question, that kind of question. So I felt like Detroit Golf Club was much more, you know, you're trying to hit specific golf shots on. It's a checklist. You know, it's like in your backswing, like someone's calling fade. Okay. Like the games that only the tour pro's can play. Technical skiing. Also, they, you know, it's a place where they actually do slow down the greens. Of course. You get here that as well. The greens are wild. The greens are really cool. That was a great example of, I'm sure we'll get into this, but, you know, playing a PJ

tour golf course and seeing the difference between what your eye is seeing and what your eye sees on TV. How much do you get to flat? Yeah, two very different things. There's not a whole hell of a lot, you know, TV can do about that, but they're just shooting from so high up to catch so many balls coming into greens and stuff. You don't get a great sense of how wild those greens were. They're really fun to play.

Greens and bunkers. Well placed bunkers out there. I mean, it was definitely an old school course that's been, you know, modernized for pros, basically. So my two favorite holes out there, indeed, I'll love your feedback on this, were number five, which was a par five on the front nine. Trees on the left. Kind of a really, you had to hit a really tight T-shot with OB left,

and then you wanted to be on the right side of the fairway. I ended up on the left side, and then there's these overhanging trees, kind of a hundred yards from the green. So like, you have an option to maybe go over them, but like, are you hitting five iron in, or you're trying to punch like a draw around the trees to a green, just like you were saying that's sneaky elevated with a false front. And so that, to me, kind of summed up a lot of the strategy of the golf course. And playing it will make me enjoy the tournament a little bit more. No, I totally agree.

That was going to be number one on my list as well. I really, really like that. I'm cool green as well when you get up there. You know, I felt like you're playing too. It was a really flat piece of property. Reminded me, you know, I know Wingfoot has a little bit of movement, but where where? Just when you kind of throw the drone up and when you kind of start looking around,

it like it did remind me of Wingfoot a little bit. Wingfoot probably has two better golf courses, I would say, but it's very similar in that it's just very expansive, relatively flat, and the two courses kind of wind with each other. It's a big, massive clubhouse, old, a lot of history. Just, it was a really cool spot, but where I was gonna go with that is, feels like for relatively flat piece of land, you're also like kind of hitting uphill into greens a lot.

And number five was a good example of that, where it was short for, you're not hitting a ton of club in, but just kind of uphill into some of those greens with wild ass greens. It made for a lot more demanding shots than maybe the scorecard yardage was. Yeah. Neil, how did you play area 313? I went 635.

I think I went 655. Yeah. So and I would motion to, you know, Dan and the Rocket Boys. We need to make that a career three run, three challenge. I think that would add a long term, like if a guy has birdies, always looking for his that hole in one. Like in case people don't know what we're talking about. The three one, three challenge

in the Rocket Morgan Classic. A player has to go Eagle, hole in one, birdie. Back to back to back. And then Rocket Morgan, which gives like 300 grand or something. 313 grand. Shotgun star boys have been all over this that, you know, they've brought in some actuaries, figured out that that policy probably cost them about $12.

Yeah. It's so unlikely. I'm with you. It's the dumbest promotion in golf, but if they made it a career on it, got you talking about it. No, it was a career, playing the course, maybe think, God, that would be a reason for guys to come back. Yeah. Like, it could, you know, we got to make some tweaks to it.

But getting back to the course, I think the hit, I love a place with a lot of history. I was talking to, I think Cody about it after the round, feels like a course where if you were a member, there's a ton of value, right? They had the full facility, like a 36 hole track or a mine of me have placed in Cincinnati. I like a lot Kenwood Country Club,

where you got two different, very different golf courses. You've got the pool, you've got tennis, really nice clubhouse. We had a drink in the, in the grill afterwards, it was a great vibe in there. So I think that's Johnson. So I felt a little bit like, the architecture is from a bygone era.

And one thing that really stuck out to me was, the pool is right next to 18 on the North course, and it's now just covered like a hundred feet up in nets. Right? And it's just like, I thought to myself, like, man, look at how this place has had to adjust, just the layout of it, like they built the clubhouse too close to the finishing hole,

and people were probably just like, knocking kids out with, you know, with like, hitting a hook into that green. And now it's just like covered in netting. And it's just like kind of a very visual, like visceral, like look at what the modern, like look at how far everything's going. Look at how big these misses are

from, you know, amateur golfers at this club. So, you kind of got a sense of an old school golf course, like 36 whole complex, which, you know, I think you could start to list off a bunch in the country meets the modern game, right? And what they're trying to do to keep a PGA tour event at that course. Yeah, a couple, a couple more things for me. I wouldn't say that this is going to sound very backhanded and I don't mean for it too, but the, I don't think it even totally wowed me.

I mean, I don't think if we were building like a composite 18 from the trip, I don't know that necessarily any of their holes would be on there. I thought it was a little bit, not forgettable. It's just, well, there wasn't a ton of like really distinct stuff out there, but- It's like high floor solid, though wrong. But that said, it was in incredible shape. I had an absolute blast.

It was a delightful walk. It was an easy walk. It was truly a place that like, I'm with you. It would be so fun to be a member at it. Get a lot of like, I'm with you, it would be so fun to be a member. Get a lot of value as a member. Yes, it would be a blast to go, know all those holes intimately and go out there and play every Saturday.

But that said, I don't, I think it stands up to like a PJ tour. It's the perfect place for a PJ tour test. There's not a lot of quirk, there's not a lot of things guys are gonna bitch about. There's a plenty of space, It's an immaculate shape. I want kind of championship test of goal. I want to take that and lead us into the South course because I played both.

And it felt like from the members and some of the folks on site that we talked to, they prefer the South course. I found the South course more interesting and more fun. And what I thought was funny or interesting was people were like, well, yeah, the North course, that's the tournament course. So like, you know, we have to do it to keep the PGA Tour. And I just think there's like a disconnect when the excuse for a course being less interesting or like the people that play it every day,

don't want to play it is because it's hosting a PGA Tour event. Shouldn't it be the opposite? Like we are seeing these guys play the more interesting course? Or, and that's a wider topic, but that's how I felt and you guys saw the more interesting course or, and that's a wider topic, but that's how I felt and you guys saw the South course. So, it's kind of funny about that is at least they have a PJ tour event.

You know, like think about how many clubs are like that and don't have a PJ tour. It's massive for the local area and I think, because I think, you know, with Detroit, there's the definite, like it's a massive deal for them. Totally. That was gonna be the other thing I was gonna say was, it's easy and kind of cheap thrill,

sometimes to poke fun at the PJ Tour schedule. And oh my God, there's 45 events, who the hell's watching all these events, what's going on, why are we doing this? And then you go talk to those members, or go talk to, you know, the people who work there, the people who benefit from the tournament. And it just, yeah, it's a good constant reminder

that we all probably need that, like these events are actually doing a lot of good things for a lot of good people. And it's, it's, it's, would be really hard to go, just pluck those away. I just wish that didn't make the course less interesting to have it amateur golfers like us. Well, that said too.

It sounds like it goes back to the ball going too far. I mean, I would go in the tour, like they're, they're so averse to setting up pins on anything remotely resembling a slope, or there's teal occasions that they use on the North Course during the club championship that they don't use during the tournament because like the whole would be too long or the window would be too.

But yeah, I love the South Course. There was so much variety, and it never felt short. They changed the routing a little bit for the tournament. So they add in, I think, to South course holes and they change like a little bit of the routing. They start on eight, I think. So that's not, it's not exactly in the North course. I just wanted to, for all the, well, actually is out there.

Well, to your point on the South course, the word that came to mind for me was just complimentary. And I didn't play the North course, but I cannot imagine that the North course was point on the South course, I thought the word that came to mind for me was just complimentary and I didn't play the North course But I cannot imagine that the North course was anything like the South course and we kind of we just kind of went out and played Scotch Forshams out there as kind of an afternoon kind of again a compliment to our day if you will and we started on the fifth hole Which I think contributed to a big takeaway. I had we played what 14 holes out there If I never saw the scorecard and if no one ever told me that it was sub 6,000 yards in a par 68, I legitimately would have never noticed. It has two par fives. We got to play both of those and it just had a lot of

par through a lot of one shot holes. And it like was not short. The holes are not short. I mean, they're about 400 yard par fours. They're not long, but it was just kind of right there in front of you simple, but intricate little designs to each hole. It was trees were a factor on this golf course in a really fun way. It was kind of like, I think it was on the seventh hole where if you pull a T-shirt, you don't really realize it yet.

You pull a T-shirt, there's a tree that overhangs the front left of that green and you're like, oh gosh, I'm paying a price for being out of position here. And I gotta forgot, do I go under this tree, over this tree, great part threes, and just kind of three 50 par fours that had a little bend to them that you had to kind of figure out

what kind of strategy you wanted to play there. And nothing about it is really short other than just having the more one shot holes. And I think it, that's what is really interesting to me too, is like when someone sees a course that has a very small scorecard yardage, like sub 6,000 yards, they never seem to put together, like no, that just probably means more part threes.

And like who's birding too many part threes? You know what I mean? It's like, it's almost like when you have a longer yardage and more part five, like that's less of a test. Yeah. I was in up using way more clubs when it's sub 6,000 yards. And I just wanted to give a shout out to this course and because we, I feel like we rave about courses like this

when we go to Scotland or Ireland or like, this wouldn't believe it, like, it's not a par 70 and it's sub-6,000 yards. They just do it so much better there. Well, here is an example in the US of embracing a different set up of a golf. I got a private, very nice country club. I had imagined like this,

there's not where I would have picked, you know, members being volunteering for something that was sub-6,000 and less than a par-70. You know, usually that's kind of a, it's starting to come back, Dough, because working on one at San Valley and I think trying to reintroduce that to Americans, but I feel like people are very resistant to that idea

and it works and it's a great model for golf courses. If you only, how much smaller of a footprint, 6,000 yards takes up other than 7,500 yards from the back to you, it's like, holy shit, let's focus on that. We were out there on a Tuesday, they were having their men's league. There were hundreds of guys. I mean, thriving membership, it sounds like they've seen it grow by leaps and bounds over the last five years or so diverse membership, it looked like society, right, which was refreshing. And we should mention on that note

there's a lot of reasons why the PJ tour chose to go to Detroit Golf Club, like you mentioned there are you know dozens of pretty elite private golf courses around Detroit and kind of in the surrounding areas, but there are not many that feel like you're in Detroit. You know what I mean? And Detroit Golf Club was kind of, they kept calling it kind of like the first suburb of downtown Detroit. It was, it was one of the first things put. It still feels like you're in Detroit. Some of the areas around the course are a little rough, but look like they're kind of coming back. I mean, even on that note, some of the tour players kind of but look like they're kind of coming back. I mean, even on that note,

some of the tour players kind of bitch or make off handed comments about that. I thought, you know, like, yeah, there's some up and coming, you know, like you can tell people are buying up some of those houses and fixing them up because there's some majestic spots around there where they're all lining the courses

and they sold the houses to basically pay for the course way back in the day. But at no point did I feel like the immediate area was at all. No, right. Like a, there's other areas of Detroit that do look that are truly run down. And I did not think the area around the course was that way.

And some old homes that are ready to be redone, like had ready to be fixed up for sure. I was told that that was the first development, like golf and property, like using property to... It felt like a big part was all around the outside, right? They didn't sell off any of the land inside, which is, wish more developments. I do that.

And we kind of got a little bit of background in case I forget to mention this later, but just about how the tournament actually ended up there, which I thought was pretty cool. And Dan Gilbert, obviously obviously has been kind of the poster person for trying to revitalize Detroit and pump in a bunch of money into a bunch of different things. And part of it was like trying really, really hard to get a PJ Tour event back in Detroit. Of course, they had the War Kills event. Forever. It was a pretty big mainstay on the PJ Tour, but the war flint. That was right. Exactly. But yeah, not much else kind of like in Detroit proper.

And so his whole thing was trying really hard to bring a PJ Tour event to Detroit. And according to the story that we heard, I mean, I think a big part of it was sponsoring the event in DC. Genius DC that was kind of like sponsor list for a while there. The, what we kind of heard was he worked with the PJ Tour and basically said, all right, I'll prop up this sponsor list for a while there. What we kind of heard was he worked with PJ Tour and basically said, all right, I'll prop up

this sponsor list event, but as soon as you have an opening on the calendar, we're moving something to Detroit. And so say what you want about Dan Gilbert, Randy, maybe we take that on another podcast, but the idea just of doing that and kind of throwing money in an event that you're kind of not really even tied to, just to hopefully invest and get something back to Detroit,

kind of ties back to what I was saying a little bit earlier there too. And like, yeah, I know this event probably doesn't have the biggest ratings of the year. I know I'm probably not fascinated to watch it every year, but it matters. It matters to a lot of people. Not everything is for you, not everything's for me.

And that's important, less than I think I'm still learning. So. All right. Let's clubhouse. We just need to mention the clubhouse. So. All right. Let's clubhouse. We just need to mention the clubhouse. Please. Albert Conn. Albert Conn, excuse me.

He's a complete menace architect and destroyed. It just designed the forward headquarters, a lot of the factories, a lot of the very regal factories that are now abandoned. It, they look awesome. You just wish somebody was doing some, was making some shit in them. I was gonna say people I think are doing stuff in them. I don't know if anybody's making stuff in them. I was gonna say people I think are doing stuff in them.

I don't know if anybody's making stuff in them. We wanna be making stuff in them. That's what they're for. I think he did the Clevver's at Rackham as well, right? We did. I think Detroit overall, it's more hopeful than it is depressing. I think it's a really interesting place.

There's some great restaurants we ate at an East African place called Balbab Fair that was fantastic. The urban farm right on the street. I was blown away. I'd never spent any time in Detroit and I absolutely loved it. Would love to return for baseball game, I mean hockey game, something that, getting into that downtown was really fun and obviously talking to a bunch of people there. It probably wasn't always that way over the last 20, 30 years.

And just tease the content a little bit. One of the, I think feature moments of No Doubt or Sauce coming your way in episode one or two. And I infiltrated a tango cabal. We'll get into that. We ate some conies. We ate some Detroit pizza. I had a blast.

Could've hung out in Detroit for a couple more days. My overall takeaway from Detroit was just pretty much like, there's obviously remnants of a previously existing society and it's still there. The concrete is still there from just near abandoned city at some point, but it is, like, if that wasn't there, you would never think that Detroit's not doing very, very well. It's just so big and so flat that it makes, it just feels, it just makes those buildings, some of the abandoned stuff feel very present, right? Because these blocks are massive, man.

And it's just like one of them is, nothing's going on. And the next one's like, oh, look at this. This is like, this is up and coming. So it just changes from block to block. Yep. Next up, TC, Rainy and I went to Rackham. Tron, you previously had played Rackham this past year at Maximania in May,

I believe that was. Tell us about Rackham. Yeah, Rackham is, it's not in the city of Detroit. It's actually outside, but it's huntington woods, I think. But the Detroit golf runs it and owns it, I think. So yeah, Horace Rackham donated it. It's right next to the zoo. They moved the front nine.

They had to, the first two holes, they built I-696, front nine. So they had to kind of squeeze in nine holes on what was the land for six or seven holes. So the front nine is not necessarily Ross or even original Ross, but the, the back nine is pretty much untouched. And it's, you know, certainly it's, it's, I, I think it's a success story. We're talking to Karen Peake. She's runs the place and runs golf Detroit. And she's just a remarkable

woman. And she basically said, had they, they went back from, you know, I think a few years ago, I think in the late 90s, they did 77,000 rounds. They got down to probably 30,000, a few years back and they're back up in the mid 50s and it's growing and growing and growing and they have more resources to improve the course, improve drainage. The greens are super, super smooth. But the back nine is the main event out there.

It's just a classic, like give me 18 good greens and the playing golf here is gonna be fun and interesting. And unfortunately, they had, like when we're talking about rain, they got like 17 inches of rain in the previous five weeks before we got there. Drench city. And it was Drench City, USA. I've never seen so much water on a golf course.

It's unfortunate for the drone footage, but like it didn't really affect the playability of the golf course. We were in it maybe one time. It had to take casual water or temporary water, but it didn't really affect the playability of the golf course. We were in it maybe one time. It had to take casual water or temporary water, whatever it's called now. It's 30 or 40 bucks to play. Unbelievably class, it looks like a train station,

that just like the golf course took over. Similar to Detroit Golf Club, and it's just a very diverse community of people out there playing. We'll be talk to a bunch of people that have played there for 25, 30, 35 years and just what they like about it. It's very different.

They're like, what I liked about the golf course, but I found that super much more relevant. What do you live here? You play here a lot. What do you like about it? What don't you like? It was also instructive knowing that you're stakeholders with municipal golf.

You know what? I don't like that the handicapped spot is through the shoes. I've got to fix the roof shingles. It's too far from the clubhouse. That was awesome. It was great. We played the back nine, which is the untouched

Donald Ross nine, just great feature holes. I was totally engaged in that round of golf, and I would play there quite frequently if I lived in Detroit, especially for the cost that it is to play, which I believe some are between $24 and $49 greens fees at work. And I think as far as standout holes, 10, 11, 12, you know, just solid, but then you really get,

like the meat gets going 13 is a really cool hole, kind of some deception bunkering up on 13. And then 14 is a short par five, kind of some deception bunkering up on 13. And then 14's up, short par five, kind of runs along this neighborhood. And then 15 up till shorter par four, next to the giraffe, and at the zoo, which Randy said, said hello to his family over there. I couldn't see him. Only Randy could see the giraffes.

That's right. And we have a little secret hand signal that we did. T.C. I wanted echo whole 14 the par five. I think was my favorite hole looking back on the on the round with the neighborhood running down the left. And I just remember where that pin was in the front. And you know, the greens were a little slowed down. Sully mentioned how much water they had gotten. But still being above the hole on that green, it was death. And you could just imagine during the competition when they get the greens a little fiery, like being above the pin anywhere, especially on that back nine at Rackham is just automatic, you know, bogey or double bogey. It was, that's a real

treat at a public course, I think. 18 similar. I was going to say similar to a public course, I think. 18 similar. Well, I was gonna say similar to the South course, I meant to give this a shout out to, like the greens were not lightning speed on the South course at Detroit Golf Club, but like that is great for when you have really undulating greens.

It does not, it makes you not play silly golf, and I felt the same way with Rackum. Those greens were pretty wild. Remind me of Placca a little bit. Placca's greens are slower, but these greens, Placca's greens in here in Florida have 8% grades on some of them where they will put the pin, but they stimp at about 6. And it just, like, that's the way golf was played, then that part is actually preserved. And I love that, you know, I don't know what they were stimpin'

up when we played maybe 8. Yeah, and it worked. It totally worked because anything else would have just kind of been silly golf. And I really honestly don't have interest in playing raccom when they're at 11 for the city am, the annual city am that they have there. But that would be super, super, super challenging. And there's some teeth there. I mean, you got a couple long par threes on the back. You got a 213 yard par threes.

You got a 220 yard par threes. Dude, the old school, it's like the more old school architecture we play, they loved long ass part threes. Like, they're almost like drivable fours back in the day. And, but there are so many, every time I play a down-race course, I feel like I'm hitting four iron, driving irons into part three. They also built like, there's 12s, a 350 yard part four, 17s, a 350 yard part four.

They built great short two shot par fours. The blending between three and fours is a lot closer in those cultures. Which I think makes a lot of sense too, especially, I mean, you know, you get it. We'll talk about this later in the episode when we talk about Washcomo, but, you know, Neon Hour Playing Hickories, and it's like,

it's just not a game where you're throwing it straight up in the air and stopping it, right? So when you're playing like those, I think of like number four at Belvedere, when you're playing a, you know, of 230 yard par three, it's like, yeah, man, you're going to keep it on the ground anyways. It's probably firm. It's probably almost, I don't want to say easier to play back then, but it's easier to wrap your head around back then probably. I think overall just keep doing what you're doing at Rackham, Karen, and you're doing a great job.

I think we talked to a few people out there that are volunteers with the first tee, that were saying like how truly wonderful and patient and accommodating they are to the first tee. Like, you know, everybody wants to talk in cliches about growing the game. Like they're legitimately growing the game at Rackham. You know, just like keep lifting that place up.

And it's 18s of 448 yard par four, like really. All buster. Yeah, so it's like, there's, it's proper golf. Randy, I was going to ask, I didn't get to see Rackham, but it sounds like an absolute strapped paradise. I'm curious how it, how it kind of fit with some of the golf golf quarters we've seen it strapped. Yeah, that's, that's exactly right.

Would, would fit right in and I think you and yourself and Neil would absolutely love it. Honestly, I think what it most reminded me of is probably a few of the courses that we saw in Peoria, maybe, like these guys have said, it's really proper golf and those greens are no joke. And it's a great value and a great challenge. And you have a lot of people out there that are at all levels of the game, they just love

golf. And I think for that, yeah, absolutely captures the spirit of what we try to do on strap. Next up, we piled in the Sprinter Van and are wonderfully provided BMW X6. What do we have? X6, M50. Drove to Ann Arbor, DJ. Take us to Ann Arbor. Well, it's a Perry Maxwell, Alistair McKenzie joint ever fucking heard of them.

So, listen to this trick. 1931, Alistair McKenzie, I think it's the bulk of the credit, but also Perry Maxwell, much like their work at Crystal Downs. I think there were some symbiosis. I think they worked pretty hand in hand. Midwest, so see. Yes. Working on that one.

It's kind of hard to wrap your mind around a course that, you know, in Alistair McKenzie golf course that students can go play for $38. That's about as good as it possibly can get. And I think that's reflected always. I know golf week always used to do a, possibly still do, always, always did a top campus courses in the country. And I think it was always kind of back and forth between this and the Scarlet course at Ohio State.

And Yale to Yale's up there as well. But I mean Michigan, like from a, from a campus course perspective, it, man, it's going to be really hard to beat that one. A culver. And culver. The nine hole course in Indiana is always very, very cool as well. Right now the current ratings. Number one, Yale, two culver, three to conic, four plowing up these standings, the foul course at Indiana, five the Rawls at Texas Tech,

six University Ridge in Wisconsin, seven, the Oklahoma course, eight, the Scarlet nine Pete Die River course in Virginia Tech, 10, Paloose Ridge at Washington State, and 11, University of Michigan. Wow, that's been insane. That's that's my, I take great exception to the scarlet is not better than the University of Michigan.

In no way, it's not even seen in that universe, damning from big nut. Biggest home or from high state, Randy. Yeah, I got a, not this. You guys don't, but yeah, you see those rankings were, I agree with a lot of them, but no way University of Michigan is behind Scarlett. Well, thank you for that. I agree with you.

I think a lot of, it's almost kind of hard to pinpoint what I really loved about this place, just because it felt like, again, the floor was just really high. It just felt like everything was done so, so well. Can we talk quickly about the pricing structure? And now I just freaking love, for students, it's $38, faculty and staff, it ranges from $45 to $52,

and unaffiliated guest, $135 to $160. Yeah. I love pricing structures like this. It's like, all right, if you're traveling and you wanna go play this course, it's gonna cost you more than it costs the locals. Yeah. No, we're gonna count on your revenue for this, but you can access it and play it.

And it's still a value asset for you. It is. Similar to Harding Park for residents. Torrey Pines. California State residents and then somebody from out of state. And that's a no-brainer, right? Because if you are on vacation, you will pay. That's fair.

Yeah. And it is a place, I think, even at that 135 to 160, I think that, like you said, Trump is an absolute value. Would seek it out at that price as well. So props to them for getting that in place and kind of running it the way that they run it, because it is an awesome, awesome place to see.

The pride of the people that work there was evident in terms of what they had on their hands. They knew exactly what that golf course is and that shine through. And it's cool to worry about Jack Nickless coming in and destroy the course. And it's cool too that, you know, you have, I didn't go to a big university. I don't have the big like necessarily that Ra Ra football pride that a lot of the people at Michigan have, but you almost, it's very weird and very cool to see them kind of tap into that as it relates to golf courses as well.

You know what I mean? Like everybody has that for their football team, for their basketball team, but it is kind of cool to just see them have that same like go blue pride about like, this is the best fucking golf course in the country. Like you have no idea. We're gonna, we're better than every other golf. It's just, it's really cool to see that. You know, Maze and Blue on the course,

and score an absolute army of students out there taking care of the course. You know, it looked like some summer jobs going on, which probably why it's in such good shape. But to the course itself, only 6,700 yards, I think, from the back, but a ton, ton of elevation and land movement, which is kind of crazy, considering the fact that, you essentially feel like you're right in the middle of campus.

I mean, it's some of those teas you're, you're looking right over at the football stadium, you're looking at campus up on the hill, all the, all the, you know, libraries, the dorms, all that kind of stuff. It feels like you're kind of right in the thick of things, but still it's wildly up and down, and to a much greater extent than what I was saying at Detroit Golf Club.

I mean, it's 6,700 yards, but it just feels like you're hitting uphill all day. And blind. Yes. A lot of blind shots. A lot of quirk, a lot of weird stuff. I thought it was really funny that they, you know, you have this Perry Maxwell, Alistair McKenzie Golf Course, and they're using it at times to park cars during the football game.

Which I think is overstated a little bit. They do it basically where you see all the big Heather, uh, during the summer. I think they kind of knock all that down. They, they talking to the students that we played with, Henry and Sofia. They do a great job of, of keeping cars off the course, keeping them on the car path. They have a great system. Uh, it's just, they were saying, you know, cars, a bunch, they'll, they'll have thousands and thousands of cars on the golf course on Saturday and you wake up

Sunday morning. It looks like nobody was ever there. So it's, uh, just a really cool operation. I think one of the things, and this is certainly probably a little bit of a recency biased, we're gonna get into talking about Mike Dvreeze and all his work, but as someone who has kind of become like Mr. Michigan Golf, it just seems like the place is absolutely calling out

for a restoration renovation. From him kind of turning everything up a little bit more even and getting some of the original stuff back. Basically, they need to find someone to write the check, but not change the name of the golf course to their family name. Exactly. But I had an absolute blast. I think if we're looking at a couple of favorite holes, I think this will probably be repetitive.

You're probably going to hear about a lot of short parfours for me, as always. But number six is about as much fun as you can have wild boomerang green. We had some great thrills. Maybe some of the most thrilling moments of the whole trip on that green, I think. I love walking off a short four and then realizing, like,

I don't know, driver was totally not the full. Yeah, it really was not. Number two was wild, kind of blind to T-Shot way up over that hill. Almost felt like something you'd see in Scotland or some really quirky, weird stuff. And number three was one of the most fascinating, intimidating brutal part fives. Just a big time downhill, dog like left. Never gonna have a flat lie on that hole. Absolutely brutal green.

Our Sherpa Sophia made one of the greatest birdies in the history of golf on that hole. Absolutely brutal green. Our Sherpas O'Fiya made one of the greatest buries in the history of golf on that hole, I think. Just really fascinating stuff. What'd you guys like about Michigan? A great piece of land. You're kind of playing up, you know, up onto the hill for one of the nines, and then the other nine,

you're kind of playing along the outside of the hill. I thought the par threes were exceptional. You know, I think three could definitely use some tree removal on there. been along the outside of the hill. I thought the par threes were exceptional. I think three could definitely use some tree removal on there. Some of those greens, like the one that you mentioned on the short four was the six.

The green on 14, 14 was under use. Well, they're like these hourglass shaped greens that, it's almost like two greens. The hole could change so drastically day to day based on where the pan is. I'd say horseshoe pointing sideways, right? Like top tier, and then wraps around, gets skinny, and then there's a bottom tier.

There were a lot of greens out there. You could almost do the sweetens things, right? Or you just have two pins in some of those greens, because you're never gonna hit it. You're never gonna accidentally hit it by the other one. You know what I mean? It's basically two different golf holes. I thought six was one of the best,

like best green sites I've seen for a par four this year. I was just so handsome. Eight was really cool. Great, great par three. One of those par three is that they have to look and see where the pin is when they're setting the T markers out each day because you can get blocked out by a tree up by the green.

I mean, I was expecting it to be a lot, say, scruffier or rough around the edges because I heard so many people say, hey, it's calling out for a restoration. But I think that's actually like, hey, I was so impressed by the firmness of the greens, the speed of the greens, the size of the greens even. There's certainly something that could probably be pushed out a little bit more even. But the bones are there to make this. This is easily a a top 100 course in the country. They do it right. It was it was a sticky hard walk I thought it was just a sneaky hard course. Yeah That's well said the my only

Recommendation and and perhaps I could propose to you guys. Maybe we make a an anonymous donation I would have loved to have some bells. Sure. You know, I felt like... They're good on money. Michigan's good on money. I'm not saying I would love it. I would love some bells in the fairway.

Hey, ring the bell when you've cleared because I felt like I was hitting into the group ahead of us, I felt like you guys behind us were hitting into me. Balls going everywhere, something's whole switching back. Some holes should play it up the wrong fairway. So the blind shots being the first time you've played it, like obviously that shock gets easier and easier if it's a college course and you're playing it every day.

I like flourishes like that where there's a, I love bells on courses, so I think that would be a, a good tagum. Well, no, I, no, that's, I wouldn't tag the bell. I never, and I wanna put on record, I didn't tag the bell at Wilmington. Okay, did not tag that bell. That tag was already there. Or you're introduced to the court here. You're introducing evidence to put on record. I didn't tag the bell at Wilmington. Okay, did not tag that bell. That tag was already there.

Or you're introducing evidence to the court here. I tagged a water fountain at the restroom on like six or seven. I did not tag the bell. What do you give a shout out to the Ann Arbor Police Department? Oh, the campus police department. The campus, sorry, the University of Michigan Police Department. Some of the response teams, you know, response times like we've never seen like we've never seen there is

an unman to aircraft uh... to of them that were circling the property that uh... they made prompt arrival and uh... ground of the aircraft quickly who's thrown is this identify yourself and then they gave us great breakfast recommendations they did we uh... we had a great report with them but it turns out that there was miscommunication on our permission to get aerial footage of the golf course and a police car. I think scrambled was the right word. Up the 10th hole in the car path and met me by the sixth screen to say, hey, get that drone out of the air and detained me and interrogated me now.

It was, they were very kind, but yeah, turned out, we may not have aerial footage of this one. Big, what do you think? I loved it. I, you know, it's the good doctor, right? I was the thing reflecting on it that I was most surprised about was the elevation changes. I don't know why in my mind,

I don't think of Ann Arbor. I just kind of thought of it as flat, I guess. Like you said, going up the hill, and then those views back into town and seeing the campus, those were among my favorite, especially like the ninth and 18 tolls. But yeah, that's a, I mean, that would almost make me reconsider my college choice to go up there

and be able to play that course, you know, dozens of times each year. I was really, really enjoyed. You like to get back there and play it. The only problem is you don't get to play it when you're at school that much. Because it's short season. Yeah. Yeah.

I know exactly. Great reason to stick around in the summer. Find some summer classes. I think we do have to talk about the 18th hole. Great T-shirt. Polarizing hole effect. Great view from the team. But maybe not the greatest. Good green, too. The green totally fit the hole. Great T-shot. Polarizing hole. Great view from the tee, but maybe not the greatest.

Good green too. The green totally fit the hole. It's this downhill par 4. What's the other part of the par 150? It used to be a stream, but part of the drainage and irrigation and water management for the whole campus. It's somewhere where I guess the clubhouse would flood every few years. So yeah, so they basically added this big pond and it's a pretty, it's a tough drive. There's this massive bunker down the right and you've got it, but like there's no,

it makes no sense to take on the bunker and try to fly it because it's directly downhill after the bunker into the pond as well. So you're basically just left with like laying back off the tee so you can hit a 210 yard shot into a, you know, a massive green, but it's still 210 yard shot over water at a campus course. It was just an uncomfortable golf course. It just provided a lot of shots that were just not cozy. I played a lot of golf in Florida since moving down here, obviously, and just felt exposed a little bit out there

in terms of like, oh, a jumper uphill, gap wedge to a tucked pin, having no idea how this is gonna come out. It just reintroduced elements of golf to me that I haven't really experienced in a long time that being this early on the trip. And you would get so much better at golf playing that golf course. Even seven, it's like a 370 yard par four down a hill. And you're hitting there and you're left with, all right.

If you're a driver, you're probably running off the right side of the fairway. You got a shape shot out there to hold fairways. 40 yard shot into a green that slims up, you know, back right. If there's just, there's a lot of strategy and a lot of layers there. Yeah, I would put it, you know, having played Scarlett Yale, Stanford now,

so on, I would put it right there, it's neck and neck with Yale, best in the country. I would toss Toconic in there too. Of course you would. Of course you would. Of course you would. Let's check in briefly with our friends at Walker Trolley. The Walker Trolley Cape1.5 is the number one premium push cart

in the market bringing classic style with an ample use of modern technology. If you prefer to play golf at three miles an hour than the K1.5's polished aluminum frame and use of wax canvas and leather creates a trolley that stands out all over the golf course. I cannot play around with golf where I don't get asked about this trolley in some way.

I actually have it on loan right now to a golfer friend of ours who is playing in Q-school right now. He wanted to take it on on Q-school. How cool is that? It's not only the an outstanding product that makes Walker trolley different. The company prized itself on its outstanding customer service.

It's a company of golfers, making an outstanding product for golfers. For a limited time, the company's flagship trolley is on sale. If you've been on the fence about pulling the trigger on one of these things, now is the perfect time to get yourself a Walker trolley. Go to walkertrolleyes.com and just for no laying up listeners, use code no laying up 20 to get an additional $20 off your purchase.

Walk the game in style with Walker Trolleyes because golf was meant to be played at three miles an hour. Let's keep it going with the pod. So next up, we headed west. A couple hours towards Grand Rapids. Did a little divide and conquer. TC DJ and I went out to play Pilgrims Run. The Strat boys went to play Diamond Springs. And then we met up in the evening and got nine holes in on the mines.

We're going to go to Pilgrims Run first. I promise Randy's going to get to break down some courses here on the back half. We saved him for the boy in section for the most part. But I want you guys to check me if DJ and Tron that were there on this day. Check me if I get into any hyperbole talking about this golf course. I walked off like wondering like, are you my over reacting here? Like am I losing my shit? How much I love this place? What am I missing? What's going on here, right?

Because that was truly one of the, I have not come up with a name of a course, a public non-resort course where I've had a better experience. Like bar none. We haven't even talked about the price yet, which the price is between $47 and $71 to play this golf course. That is immaculate.

And we're going to go through a lot of golf holes. And it is a par. So this course opened in 1997, Mike DeVries designed par 73 laid out in a wooded area. And Doke wrote in the confidential guide to golf courses. The program for this course sounds like a complete disaster where six of the developer's friends were entrusted to design three holes each with the help of a young architect and superintendent to build them.

And it seems like Dvreeze in the architect said, a little more leeway than the designers had laying it out. But which a little bit, a background on that. So it was the Van Campen fund, I believe, out of Chicago. The guy had purchased the land and was kind of trying to do almost like a fun program for, I think, six of his best employees. So imagine that, your boss says, hey, I just bought this land. Why don't you, you know, you six are my brain trust.

Why don't you each pick three holes and just go design them. And so guys were horse trading on, you know, oh, well, I don't want each pick three holes and just go design them? And so guys, we're horse trading on, you know, well, I don't want to have a par five and a par four and a par four. I want to have a par three or I want to have a three or four and a five. And so just imagine how hard it is to design a golf course in general. And imagine trying to do it like that and being someone like Mike D'Vries, who is, you know, well-decorated, shaper architect for, you architect for a number of people

leading up to his own solo design career, like inheriting all these plans and then making them into a cohesive, cogent golf course. It's absolutely befuddling and shocking that it turned out as well as it did. I mean, it's tremendous. It's truly not a walking course. I want to get two things out of the way

in that my, two of my favorite things in golf are walkability and turf conditions. I love the walk, I love connected golf courses, and I love courses that play fast and firm. And this course had neither of those things, and I'm still about to just go absolutely ape shit about this golf course. It's the one I've thought the most about since we left

and the fact that it's maximum $71 just blew my fucking mind. I mean, the width is tremendous. It's carved out of a forest and trees, but every single hole there's breathing room. If you are behind trees, it's probably because you took on risk and you probably deserve to be behind that tree. There is a safe route every single hole.

The trees are set very well back from the conservative lines of play. Again, there's a couple holes where you might try to cut a corner or shape one around there and you know you're bringing on the risk, but it is truly your own prerogative if that's the case. And something interesting I noted about all the degrees courses we played on this trip, what I thought about the first hole fell in line almost perfectly with what I noted about all the degrees courses we played on this trip. What I thought about the first hole fell in line almost perfectly with what I felt about the golf course at the end of the day. The first holes set the exact tone for what my overall takeaway of the golf course was.

And the first hole, a brilliant par five, and I know we're going to talk a lot of degrees here, but all of these holes being such great scene setters. This is a par five. It bends to the left. You're welcome to try to cut off as much as you want if you play over a left bunker. This is going to bring that left tree line into play. If you try that, if you don't cut the corner, there's a good chance you're going to run into the bunkers that protect the right.

The fairway then snakes back to the left and your path to the hole from the right side is like clear through a shoot of trees, which just like blew my mind. But if you cut off, if you go hook it around the corner and cut it off, you actually have trees in your way and you'll have to draw and fade around them. Then you got to think about those trees on your layup. The third shot is interesting. The layup shot is interesting. The green is interesting when you get up there, the bunkering around it is interesting,

the big dip, if you're trying to come in from the right side is interesting, I'm trying to like, take in that hole after just kind of rolling out of the car, I was like, holy shit man, like what are we, honestly I think we walked off that green and I just looked at DJ and trying, I was like, you know what, fuck Torrey Pines, like this is what golf design looks like,

okay, like that is so thoughtful, so interesting for all skill levels, every shot that was involved in that. Like I just was like, you know what, we're not wrong about ripping on some certain golf courses that don't require strategy, because this whole like defined it. We started playing the game, like would your brother play here or?

Yeah, we just started naming off like pretty elite private courses and like this and pilgrims run one one out against very very very many courses that you get they could name. There was there was so much substance like five you know par four five is just a you know regular par four but like a ton of variety eight six is when we were gonna talk about. 18, six, 17, 16. Like, there's just so many cool holes. I thought one of the best holes we played on the entire trip was number 13.

Oh, God damn. Or five, just one of the most handsome falloffs on this green, and it was something that we saw with from de Vries over and over and over again, and it never got old. It was like almost like gust of ask with the way that, you know, these long broad slopes, you know, fall off off of a green.

I think what blew my mind about pilgrims around was it felt like a course that I had been to a thousand times. And I remember a lot of these kind of from growing up. And this is a very random poll, but I remember a place like Aldine, golf club in Rockford, Illinois, just like these kind of like mid-tier, like my upscale public golf courses that are usually around a hundred bucks where you show up,

and it's like, all right, here's your range bucket ticket that comes with your greens fee. Here's your hot dog package deal. You get this and this with your hot dog. And here's, we have this kind of membership for the season. If you want to buy, here's this package. Just never see those golf courses being exceptional architecture. Exceptional.

They're always just immaculate. They're always usually have super lush, really green greens. But they just never seem to have really, really, really high end golf courses. And this totally did. It was mind blowing how many boxes it checked. I know that some of this stuff doesn't translate, but I still have several more holes. I need to break down the sixth hole.

Well, I try to find what it was rated as one of the best holes in Michigan or something like that. I think the best sixth hole in Michigan. It won the composite. Yeah. Tremendous Part V. Big downhill tee shot with a hole just bends to the right super wide fairway, but a center-ish line bunker that actually protects the right center of the fairway,

which sure enough, you stand on that tee box. It is the exact line you want to take. And we had the wind in our face, and I tried to do a hero carry that bunker, got eaten alive by it. It's just the whole, it was so well designed. I love being caught by a hole that I know what the challenge is. And they're asking the question, I try to take it on, I fail.

That is the most enjoyable failing in golf. And awesome uphill shot to this green protected by bunkers. It's just a tremendous golf fall. And then TC mentioned the 13th. It is a mind bending par five. I mean, the fairway pinches in and bends to the left, but it can'ts to the right. It kind of reminded me of the T-shot on number four at Pinehurst number two, where you want to kind of draw one to go against the slope that's banking from left to right.

And if you want to get there in two, it is going to require two great shots. And the approach shot, everything's kind of banking from left to right, you can use a kicker left of the green and then there's a fall off short right of that green with short grass or so many great fall offs around the greens with short grass. Two center line bunkers that are actually way short of the green, they kind of distract you

from that shot. It was the most thrilling shot I can remember hitting in the trip was the approach shot into that green. And then I've never seen an 18th hole, a drivable 18th hole. Yeah, it's not true. I've seen some drivable 18th holes, but I don't see many stateside, right? North Barrett kind of comes to mind with an easy drivable four, but this one, again, you can take on all the junk to the right. Like, you will be lost ball if you miss this green to the right, but you can try to drive this green. If you want to bail left, you're not even going to see the green surface from green side because the slope is so big next to it.

Just incredible shot value from holes one through 18. I went through it last night without looking anything up and I could vividly picture 17 of the 18 holes. I struggled with one hole in the back. I couldn't quite figure out which one was which. That is just such a mark of an incredible golf course. I skipped over like four other really standout holes, just for the sake of time.

And I don't think it's hyperbole to say like, this is the model for public golf in America. And you know, it's a bit out there. It's maybe 30 minutes from Grand Rapids. That's important, right? It's not engulfed by homes. It's not surrounded by homes. It's not likely.

A lot of golf courses I grew up playing were had homes around it. And the land just became too valuable to have golf on anymore. It became made more sense to sell it and build houses on it. I don't get the sense that's gonna happen out in this forest.

It's incredibly well-managed. It's affordable for the users, and I am sorry if this causes an influx of people playing there that, in ruining this, like hidden gem for the people that do play it, but I can't stop thinking about it. The conditioning's perfect, and I'm just smitten. Well, another thing that kind of made me laugh,

when we teed off the starter was like, hey, it's jammed out there, man. Like, you know, basically, I think he saw the camera, it was kind of like, you know, like, keep up, like, it's packed. We didn't see another fucking group all the time we were out there, and a lot of that is like,

we were joking about this with Salim. Not joking. He's like, you know, like, he's almost like looking around, like see if anybody can hear him before he says it. But he's like, you know, it's almost like pine valley. Like every hole is like totally onto itself. Like you just, you feel like you're completely alone out there and you're just doing your own thing.

It's really awesome. Well, and they were, they're so on it with all the maintenance and like it's in such good shape. Like it's not such good shape. It's not firm. They've gotten so much rain and everything. It was relatively firm, but it's just not a fast course. They were doing all sorts of cleaning up the cart pass and editing the cart pass.

Which is a good sign that you have you shake together. If that's how you get the maintenance crew working. Can the super intended, and we talked to Jeff for a little bit, the director golf. He was fantastic fantastic just a Well, well operation the only whole I didn't really care for was number nine Because I just felt like they had all this land to work with next to 18 there and they picked this kind of nondescript. Yeah, I thought about nine also but the green site was really cool Like they had elevated that green just a little bit like I remember we each first showed up

I got some of the first greens you've seen, you're just like, oh, okay, that's what we're in for today. Like each green is thoughtfully designed. And that is just an shout out to Andy Johnson, who's identified a lot of these courses around Grand Rapids and a big reason why we ended up there. But like this, if you're looking for publicly accessible

great architecture, Pilgrims Run is quite, is honestly coming like top of mine in my mind. Yeah, so. On these courses we're talking about, we'll talk about Diamond Springs next. You can play Diamond Springs, the mines, Pilgrims run, three courses for like $150, $160.

Like Max. Yeah, and go and fly direct into Grand Rapids or drive over from Chicago, downtown Grand Rapids. There's a great bar scene, restaurant scene, breweries, all that. Like, what a, like, might be the ultimate. That's what Andy kept saying. Which interest. Yeah, he's like, if you can find a better, better bang for your buck, more affordable,

buddy's trip in America, like, you know, I haven't seen it. And that's where it, it it kinda, it's so cool because there's a lot of people, obviously, who listen to this podcast, who follow our stuff that know what band is all about, know what's dream song, and San Valley, and they take the game very, very seriously, and they love seeing those places.

But there's also a lot of people who don't take the game that seriously, right? Who just, you know, might be 20, 25 handicaps who just are getting into the game or just don't maybe understand what makes a great golf course, a great golf course. And this is such a good way to go see it for, you know, less than $5,000. So whatever it's going to cost you to go to those other places.

I, I try to, I grew up playing the Robert Trent Jones golf trail in Alabama, like going over there for tournaments. If anything from Taurus sauce, I hope a Mike D'Virige trail comes about. Because it was, like this is a perfect example of a collection of the same architect. And, you know, I didn't play Pilgrim's run, but I feel like when we talk about Diamond Springs here, it's gonna be, you know,

I just want to just copy and paste the conversation. We just had, I was, what a trend, I was gonna say that. I was gonna say that. I was gonna say that, you know. So yeah, so Randy and I went out and played Diamond Springs I was going to say that. I was going to say that. So, yeah. So, Randy and I went out and played Diamond Springs with Andy Johnson of the Shotgun Start and Fried Egg fame.

I would say that I improved my enjoyment of the round immensely, just because he wrote a really good piece on his website, which I'll draw from here in a second, but he swings so hard. Well, just a great, no, he's a great architectural mind, watching him geek out on architecture. He and Randy debate the value of centerline pawns and centerline trees was probably the highlight of my day. But from just specific to diamond springs,

it's in Hamilton, Michigan. It's about 40 minutes outside of Grand Rapids. The other direction. The other direction. And it's a strong 40, not like it. You know, oh, if there's no traffic, it's, you know, you're out there in what feels like the middle of nowhere. And then you come upon this course and, you know, three words, value, value, value, baby. 35 dollars to play, probably maybe gets up to, you know, 50 or 60 at times, but I mean, truly like, that's something I'd seek out for $100.

A single cut everywhere. Yeah, so we'll get to that. But from Andy's piece on the Friday, which I'd encourage people to read, it was spilt founded in 2002 by group investors. They hired a talented young architect, Mike DeVries, gave him a nice piece of land and the task to build an affordable golf course. It's currently owned by Mike Shroten-Bor. I believe is how you pronounce it.

He has owned it the last five, six years. We actually got a chance to talk to him. One thing I noticed there and at the mines, it felt like the owner is on site. He has involved, it felt like his place, and I love that, and that kind of shows through. And there's a lot of pride in the golf course. It's not owned by a massive corporation.

It's not owned by an owner that lives five states away. It's just like, yo, this is my, I bought this course. I thought it would, you know, be a good business and I'm trying to make it work. And not to, yeah, not to get too heavy about it, but that felt like all of green rapids, right? Where it's just, and it feels like, you know, Sally, you mentioned it, but a lot of those, a lot of the courses, I know the course I grew up on, probably a lot of the courses you grew up on, like, are a lot of those family-owned golf courses that just don't exist anymore, right? And that's such an essential part of kind of a golf landscape, and it just feels like some of the middle of that landscape is being ripped out, and it feels like the bandins are getting a lot better,

and the Jack's Beach munis are getting a lot better. If you have a municipality who's willing to invest in those sorts of things, but a lot of that middle ground just really seems like it's being ripped out, and golf doesn't make sense as a business. Yeah. For a lot of those families anymore, it was really awesome and unique.

And almost like, I don't know, almost like nostalgic, I guess, to kind of see Grand Rapids be a place where that was absolutely thriving. Well, you cut, I mean, we kind of, I don't know when I came to this realization or even if you guys would agree with it, but it seems like for public golf, it either requires a really well run muni,

which are few and far between, we're fortunate enough to have one here close by, but you know that, or like somebody who is just willing to take a bath on a golf course, like, and just it's not gonna be, it's not a great business, it's not profit. If you are looking for a well-maintained affordable golf course,

like whoever owns that golf course is probably not making money off that. If they are, they are turning out so many people on it that the experience is not going to be very good. Especially when it's a season like Michigan. Yeah. That's the craziest part that this exists in Grand Rapids. We one thing, if it was your long season down here in Florida or in Arizona or somewhere, but you're talking about a seven-month season

Well, I think there's some stuff to glean though like I have three things like what did I like? I tried to sum it up and the first is one is maintenance, right? So this is again from Andy's piece But it kind of summed up how I was feeling is quote 95% of public golf course should take a closer look at diamond springs maintenance Practices it employs a single cut height of grass across the property and native grass to contrast it, which I thought was awesome. The course plays pretty wide and then the Heather

is, it's not really watered, but so it's not very thick. And Randy and I were talking about this out there. If you hit it in the Heather, it is a penalty, but it's not a loss ball. And I just wish that more courses, I wish Michigan played a little bit like that. The U of M course, it was like, if you hit it in the Heather, you're's not a loss ball. And I just wished that more courses, I wish Michigan played a little bit like that. The U of M course, it was like,

if you hit in the Heather, you're, you're boned, right? And so, but if you hit in the Heather here, you still have a shot, but it's gonna affect a lot of variables. It's kind of, I feel that way at Pinehurst number two, where if you hit it in the native area, it's like, oh, you might have a look, but it's, you're gonna be thinking about your lie and, you don't wanna be there.

You don't wanna be there, period. So I love that, and I love thinking about that as like, man, oh, this is just a perfect straw man for golf around the country. Like, make it easy on yourself, guys. Like, just sing, everything was just the same length until you, you know, we're in the shit, basically. The routing was another thing I loved. I felt like it weaved in and out,

but I never had a question of where the next hole was, which I hate when I'm on a course and it's like which direction am I going? Every hole as Sully said, felt like it's own environment, but there was always a peak at the next hole, either through like a standard trees where like, and it just had my like synapses firing, like curiosity, like, oh man, what's next, right?

And then you would go through these trees and almost like going through the wardrobe and CS Lewis book, like, oh my God, I'm in a whole different place now. And so like every hole is like its own environment, but you're still getting a peek at what's coming. So that felt like in a way, band and trails, you're on a walk in the woods,

but the path is very well designed, very marked, so you're not going to get lost, which I really, really liked. And then just strategic. So this is going to be a little bit of echoing what Sally said. One thing that stuck out to me, Sally, was I feel the same way after a trip where we played 10 plus courses. I remember every hole with ease. It was like, oh, yeah, that's number four, that's number five.

And that to me is like the, one or zero test of a good golf course of, and one thing that he was doing out there that I loved, that I wish more public golf courses were due, is he was having one or two big features on each hole that were dictating the strategy. And some of them are really simple, like a hogs, like a speed bump mound

that bisected the fairway. I don't understand why more munis don't have just not a bunch of mounding. Like, we'll get to the loop. I think that is sometimes overdone. We'll get to the loop. But one big mound where it's kind of like on a diagonal where like, oh, I need to be on this side or that side of it.

And then that's dictating what my next shot's gonna do. There was a big ravine, Broncin' Arroyo, you know, whatever you wanna call it, Peranca, that was the feature of the course, that the course kinda routed around. I love it when a feature like that pops up multiple times during a round,

but not like all in the same spot. So you saw it early on the first hole, and you saw the ninth hole, then you saw it on the 15th hole. So it was really, really, really clever the way they used that ravine. Usually I let these things go, but can you help me out with Bronson and Arroyo there? Arroyo, it's like Arroyo.

And Arroyo, like a small candy. You need a graphic feature. Gotcha. So that's a geographic feature. Mainly not my color, I call it a Bronson Arroyo. Okay. It just hit very close to home with being a red space. It's the Bronson Arroyo. Like I would, like I look forward to home with being a red space. It's a ronson red.

Like I would, like I look forward to I plan to go back to Grand Rapids next summer at some point, because I, like I, I mean, I need to play Diamond Springs. I want to go play Diamond Springs and then I think that brings us to our next one, the mines. Well, hold on, hold on. So I'm, and I have a few more things I'd like to say as well. I have not seated the mic. I will.

Randy, I would like to ask you, how did you feel about Diamond Springs? Yeah, it was great. I think you did a great job breaking down what made it great. I guess where I wanted to ask you, Neil, was talking about a few of our favorite holes. I think they're tough competition to pick just one.

I'm guessing you would pick the 15th, the short part four, but before we get there, I just wanted to mention the fifth hole is probably the wackiest, wildest green that we played on the trip, I think. It's a part three decent length. We played it, I think, around 180 to 190, and it's like a redan into a beer it's. So it's got this, like, I guess a reverse redan. It's got this, like, build up left side that can kick the ball down into this long green that has a swale in the middle of it

that that tickled my fancy there, Neil. So I wanted to shout that one out. And then I really liked the 11th, the par five with the center line trees. I was shocked that, you know, I think a lot of the customers aren't necessarily fans of the center line trees. I truly don't understand that. I think a good center line tree is one of the more interesting features that a hole can have, because it just tests you in a multitude of ways, right? Both left, right, up, down. It forces you to really pick a shot, pick a route, but it also gives you a lot of

creativity and flexibility in which to navigate. And I thought that whole was fair too, like it was wide enough. There wasn't a ton of trouble by the green, but I also love it when a hazard comes into play on both. It's on your mind, on the drive and on the second shot, because if you're, if they're in the way, then you're thinking about it on the next shot. So I agree with you. Eleven was great. You nailed it. And when it's asking a clear question, like you know exactly what you need to do. And

it heard there was a center line pond out there too. Number six, blind center line pond. Mm hmm. I would have liked it to be a little bit more blind. They had some stakes up around it. So it kind of gave it away as a water feature. But yeah, the center line pond is provocative. Neal and Andy, you know, the architect wasn't asking them the question. He was only asking me the specific question. Those guys flew it way past the center line pond, but I had to navigate it. I played a little squirter, kept it right, and it was fun.

I got a big thrill out of it. Not as surprised to learn that people don't like that feature though. I think the the back to back the 15th hole and the 16th hole were probably two of my favorite on the trip. The 15th is a reachable par four. I think Andy also sums it up well in his piece. One of the most dramatic short par fours in golf. The 15th fits the land beautifully. To describe it, it's the ravine that I mentioned earlier is squarely in your view, and it's all the way up the right side, the green sits perched above it.

On the tee, it looks like you have this very skinny landing area. And the ideal layup is right next to the hazard. What you don't see, especially on the first time playing it, is that there's about 50 yards left down this hill where you can lay up to, which is a very easy layup. Now, if you hit it there, you're going to be approaching the green from a pretty much blind or semi-blind wedge shot

into a pretty, you know, from that angle skinny green. So it's not a guaranteed par, it's not obvious to lay up. And then what else Mike does is, there's, he introduces doubt on the tee where the full carry to the greens about 300 yards. But then there's like a 250, like the fairway wraps around and you start to, I don't know, bargain with yourself. Well, you know, if I take this line, I only have to carry a 250 to 60. That layup looks really shitty.

I don't want to do that. You know, and so it's just, there's a ton of options off the tee that I just think introduce like a very stimulating conversation with yourself, which is awesome. The 16th hole is a short part five onsite, Andy and I nicknamed it the credit card hole, where you're just putting off,

you're putting off the trouble, you can put it off all the way down the hole. So the ravine is all the way down the right and you can just, there's miles of room left both on the drive-in on the second shot and you can just keep hanging up the left. It's a short part five, so. But eventually.

But eventually, which is what happened to me, I had a six or seven iron on my second shot, but it's a very skinny green that's perched up on the ravine, and it's like, oh, just miss left. So I miss left. Minimum pavements. And then you have a chip to a very skinny green from that angle with just the ravine just waiting for you behind.

So it's like, hey, I've been making these minimum payments on this credit card. All of a sudden, the interest rates up to 40% and they've sent me to collections. And I got to make this big ass shot here Coming down the stretch and I thought that was really really good design just lowing you into yeah, man You know just yeah minimum payments totally fine Yeah, we'll take that and then just later on boom. They're gonna drop the hammer. Yeah

So I think the loop was brought to you by master card. Yeah, I got it. I got a real check out a capital one, so I Think you know, and I I thought about this as a provocative statement, but I would say Diamond Springs. We'll talk about Kingsley. I loved it. I think Diamond Springs might be my favorite course of the trip. I really do. I just had so much fun. It was just really fun, thoughtful golf. And it just felt like this is sustainable. We can do it. There wasn't a lot of the guilt factor that sometimes I feel playing golf,

like, oh, this place is, it takes so much money. It's private. Like, sometimes you're like, man, I, you know, this isn't, this isn't the way it should be. That diamond springs is how it should be. So. What if ringing endorsements? Yeah.

It's awesome. And like, I'll make the minds quick because I think not to shortchange it, but it's just the same themes again. But even in a different sense, so we went out, we played Twilight on the back nine, and Andy was raving about the first four holes. Place was slammed, legitimately. We do have like 640.

Not a spot in the parking lot. There weren't any carts left. I think the big reason for that too is it almost feels like it's in downtown Grand Rapids, right? It's four minutes from downtown. Four or five minutes from downtown. It's an absolute roller coaster golf course, outrageous land. So I think that's the thing.

It's on the side of an old gypsum mine, the front nine, a back nine kind of plays over a road and then under some power lines. And it's definitely an interesting piece of property. There's a lot of severity in certain spots as far as holes to call out. Like, and it's again, it's like independently owned. Yeah, new ownership looking to just, you know, same kind of thing, just looking to make a very honest go of family-owned golf course.

It's like $30 to $60. We played the alternate T on 11, which that's a theme that we saw again at Kingsley later on. Then we'll talk about a little bit more. It's part three, 13, 14, 15, and 17 are like absolutely bananas. Like three of the last six holes, I think three of the last five holes out there, 468 yard par four, 475 yard par four,

468 yard par four. hundred seventy five road poor four four hundred sixty eight yard poor four. A lot of golf course. With wild wild undulations and slopes. Like there was there was stuff out there that I saw it at like crystal downs and at and at gray walls and and I think that's the thing with the reason is like you see the guy grew up playing like working at and playing crystal downs and that was kind of his introduction to golf and you see those themes so inherent everywhere else and really the university course as well.

Like you see those themes presenting themselves, like the Horseshoe Green is the same thing. They've got it on number seven at Crystal Downs, you know? DeVries decidedly not Mumford and Sons. No, it's interesting to say that because one, I had something, maybe more for DJ, but Diamond Springs and it sounds like maybe Pilgrims Run. It was a band, I would say Weezer. On its face it looks like very simple, simple music, but then the deeper you get into it,

it's like, here's the good stuff going on here. Why don't you go try and write a real simple song? Because that is easy as you think. Try it. Yeah. You know, with a few like one or two hooks, really simple song structure. Let's see how easy it is for you to make that interesting over and over and over again.

Exactly. You can't do it. Totally. So I think biggest thing with the minds is it's a lot more turned up than pilgrims run. That's what I'm saying. It's like their, it's like their, it's their, it's their, it's their, it's their their, it's like their, it's like their,

it's like their, it's like their, it's like their, it's like their, it's like their, it's like their, it's like their, it's like their,

it's like their, it's like their, it's like their, it's like their, it's like their, it's like their, it's like their, it's like their,

it's like their, it's like their, it's like their, it's like their, it's like their, it's like their, it's like their, it's like their, it's like their, it's like their, it's like their, right where he's reacting to whatever the land is, which I think is another way of saying minimalist and it's something you hear from quite a few different architects, but just seeing the way he treated, it wasn't him imposing his will on any of these pieces of land, right?

It wasn't him showing up and saying, like, yeah, no, I'm gonna totally be minimalist, but let's take that hill out or let's blow out a big hole over there or whatever. It was truly just like, hey man, here's what the land has given us. And yeah, the mind is going to be pretty fucking severe because that's what the land is. And it was just really cool to see that restraint and see him, you know, we saw a bunch of different Mike Diveries golf courses and I think they all felt very different because they were all

on very different pieces of land. So that's a credit to Mike. Which to clarify, that's what I meant by not being a Mumford and Suns. Exactly. You don't know what you're getting. When you step on a, if you go into a Diffreeze course blind, it's not like you're getting something textbook. Yeah. You know, his style is, we saw many different styles from him just on this trip.

Yeah, and then I think going like just moving ahead, we drank some great beer and Grand Rapids. For the itinerary crowd, DJ and I, we skipped American Dunes, the Jack Nicholas. Jack Nicholas tribute course. For the course, he's supposed to be giving tribute to the military, but he's actually giving tribute to Jack Nicholas on every single whole,

which, you know, just fascinating stuff from Jack there. And then after this one, we ripped across face and got up north into Ross Common, which now we enter the, I think it's safe to call this the big Randy Legg of the trip. Impassioned, impassioned, the loop fan, which we'll get to. But first, Randy, much take us to Forest Dunes.

Can I interest you guys in a macular conditioning, fast greens, and an intriguing layout? You can. You can. That's kind of Forest Dunes in a nutshell. When I say Forest Dunes, Forest Dunes is now, you know, people know it as a resort with many golf courses, two of those being the the rowdings at the loop. They have a new short course. But for students, the course for students that that is the original

course there and where the resort gets its name. It's a Tom Wisecoff design opened in 2002, completely public pricing ranges, depending on the season, you know, you can play it just under 100 bucks, probably up to a couple hundred bucks. And I have to admit, I want to start with something. I've played Forest Dunes. Oh gosh, now three or four times. And the name of it completely sailed over my head until this time around.

Forest Dunes. The front nine runs through Forest. The back nine is through Dunes landscape. And I never, sheepishly, I'd never made that connection. Should be a forest then Doons. Yeah, so now it makes total sense to me. Forest, common Doons. Yeah.

And so that's kind of what you can expect. The front nine, you know, the thing that just keeps coming to me is it's just like handsome, proper golf. It's gonna test you in a way that like a classic, it's just a classic kind of difficult test to golf. It's going to test you in a way that like a classic, it's just a classic kind of difficult test to golf. You have to position your ball, you have to execute good shots, you got to fly certain distances, you got to make putts. It's not tricky necessarily, right? You're not going to, you know, get a ton of like bad breaks. I think you walk off forest dunes and you can be pretty confident that, hey, my number

was a well-deserved number, whatever, whatever that would be. It's penal. Like there's, there's lost balls and water hazards waiting for you, you know, one of the other on every hole is how I, I felt out there, which, which I didn't think unfairly penal, but like in the classic sense of American golf, of like, you know, don't hit it here, because you're gonna lose the ball. You're gonna have a bad time.

I thought it was only like thing I would love to change about it, just could use a little more width, right? Some of those holes back through the trees are, you know, so they're strong tests of golf, but like between a foursome, you're probably gonna be looking for some golf balls. That's kind of my takeaway on it and seeing like a lot of other, you know, new resort courses pop up, like with seems to be a very, very common theme on almost all of them. And that comparing the width,

like at forest dunes to even the loop, along the same property, and a lot of other courses we played on this trip, that was one thing that just, that was the only thing I really wanted for on that golf course, because like you said, it was interesting greens, interesting design, fun shot value, I really enjoyed the challenge, it was just, it was difficult, it was a difficult golf course. We came out to see you guys, like we'd gotten there late after our, you know, sojourn of the coast, and it was fascinating to see just how firm the greens were.

Yeah, the third. The third, like when, you know, watching you guys play into the by-hole there and hitting wedges in and seeing them take one hop and not even think about, you know, spinning or anything like that, I was like, whoa, okay, this is turned up, this is sweet. I, it's all, I think that's interesting.

I think if everywhere had width, I think the novel, I guess what I'm trying to say is I'm glad some courses don't have a ton of width. And I think if you know that about for students, it just presents a different challenge, especially considering that the loop is ultra wide, you know? Yeah, so I guess I would, I would push back a little there and that you know I I like going through the woods and and having to navigate trees if you get way off line

If you're not hitting the ball well, yeah, it's gonna be a long day and you're gonna get frustrated You're gonna look for a ton of balls But if you are hitting it well and then controlling your golf ball I think it's you know, know, it's a difficult yet challenging and can be rewarding test to golf. So that's cool. That's cool. I was going to say that's perfect because this is a very personal thing. It is not that there's anything wrong with four students, right?

It's very much just like a, that there are other people will be very much more interested in that style of play. Maybe that I would be very curious to hear like the feedback that they get from visitors on the, what people like more of the loop or for students. Because I can totally see a certain client tell people like not liking the loop and just being obsessed with for students.

We're understanding how well conditioned and how fun and playable that golf course was. It was playing firm. The rough was so much fun to hit out of the fairways where you're in Mac with greens perfect. I'm not even sure which one I like more for students of the loop. And I'm a lover of all things link-sitch golf. So just to be clear, it was not a flaw in the golf course, just something I would prefer. Sure, that's fair. And I totally accept that. Just a couple holes to call out. I really like number eight on the front. It's we played it about

420 yards dog leg right bunker protecting the inside of the dog leg See if to really position your t-shot and then it the green it opens up where the green is surrounded on the right and then very deep by the lake and And I think it's a, it's very pretty golfful. It requires two good shots. That's one that sticks to mind for me. And then on the back, I wanted to call out number 17. It's a short four. I think, you know, certainly we had a little game going, a little match going. It's a fun short four at a fun time in the round, right? Number 17, it plays anywhere from like 270 to 300 yards. Neal Sali, no problem reaching with driver. I had to

take a different route. I laid up with a hybrid, but it's an interesting green and that's one that that kind of sticks with me from the back nine. So I think the biggest takeaways though for forestdoons are it's just a really proper golf course. And that's the conditioning, that's the design. I think Wyzkopf, I was trying to think if I have played any other Wyzkopf and I don't, I may have, but I didn't know it was Wyzkopf, but this might be the only one. And it kind of makes me want to see some of his other work because I think he did all in all a good job with four students here. One other hole I call out, almost echo,

maybe the shortcoming saw us talking about is number 15, par five, really, really beautiful hole off the tee, felt strategic, and then the second shot in the green, it's uphill, blind, and I was like, God, this green's gonna be awesome. It's like in this kind of grassy amphitheater. We get up there and it's was like, God, this green's gonna be awesome. You know, it's like in this kind of grassy amphitheater. We get up there and it's just like,

oh, it's just like tiny, almost like flushing meadow pitch and puck green. And I was like, damn, man, like you guys, like there's just like little things like that. Where I'm like, if you blew this out, like get rid of the rough, just make it fairway. Like it could have played so cool to be an uphill five that you can get up there and

where my shot end up? Is it close? Is it rolling off these hills? Did I roll over the hills? And it just, some of those magical moments, I guess, were missing out there a little bit for me. And that exact green, I think it was... I don't know how drainage works, really. I really don't. I've never designed a golf course. We're just now beginning to understand how drainage works really, I really don't. I've never designed a golf course. We're just now beginning to understand how drainage works. But it looked like, all right, well, we can't do like a punch bowl here because we need the water to go somewhere, right,

on this style of turf. And that's what, like the architects we talk the most about seem to have that figured out better than the ones that are not the ones that roll off the tip of your tongue. And that's exactly what that felt like. You crest that hill and it's just like, oh, I see why you have rough here and everything goes towards that drain.

But man, this would be such a cool punch bowl green and it should be welcoming over here, but in reality, it's just not. And it's almost like the foundation of the punch bowl was right there. That's the part, I wouldn't be saying this if it wasn't shaped like a punch bowl. And then it's just like, well, wait a second,

why can't we do that? And I'm sure that, like you said, there's probably a great reason. So maybe talking out of my ass, but it's just like, well, wait a second, why can't we do that? Right. And I'm sure that, like you said, there's probably a great reason. So maybe talking out of my ass, but it's like, I want it. I want to say, we do. We do. Big. You have played another Weisscoff. Where was the place you played in Steamboat?

Oh, Catamount. Is that a Weisscoff? That's a Weisscoff. Oh, wow. And that's a fun, you know, entirely different piece of land, very undulating. I was very impressed with that too. And then I did the Cliffs course at the Olympic Club too, the par three we played. Nice.

I'm not sure if you've played double eagle in Columbus, but you did that. That's the only one in Columbus I haven't played. All right, well, I think it's time. Let's talk about the par three course real quick, the boot lagger. Very different from what I was expecting. Very difficult. It was turned up. It was a great preview for the loop.

It was absolutely beautiful. I thought it was a really pretty walker reminding me a lot of the cradle. It was stunning. Very small, intimate kind of piece of land. Was it 10 holes? I believe out there? 12 holes?

Something like that. 10 or 12. Just really beautiful walk, difficult greens. Maybe that was somewhere the pins were, but it was not necessarily. I don't think we were expecting. I think in a lot of those part threes, you're expecting like, let's go out and, you know,

maybe make an ace. Yeah, there's 10 holes. Like maybe we'll have six or seven shots at an ace. I'll be honest, I don't get on the sandbox. Which is like, I'm smitten by the sandbox. There's a lot of grinding for parts out there, which is I think a good a good lead into the loop, but. Which and then just one of the more interesting soundtracks of our time.

The playlist a lot. Alia into like the scorpions into. To poison on there. Sure. Maybe I'm treating for the sickle or stuff. Kelly Clarkson. Yeah, it was very intriguing. Avant. It's made my tree. It's all the sickle stuff. Kelly Clarkson. Yeah, it was very intriguing. Avant-Garde.

Fun place to play the game of what songs coming on next. Yes. And nobody came close on that game. And I think, so talking about, we stayed on site at Forest Dunes for two nights. We've got, I think it's important to make the distinction. We played the loop as part of the duel, right? Which is, you know, you rarely,

like they do this what four times a year? Three times I think. Three times? 30 on the 31st. Yep. Which is the only three days where you play the course in two different directions on the same. With the same pins.

With the same pins. So. So, all right, let's get into the loop. The loop of course course, opened 2016, a tom from the twisted mind of Tom Doak. You probably know at least a little bit about the loop, but if you don't, it is America's true first reversible golf course.

What that means is, you know, if you're playing in from the north on into a green site, on the black course, you're probably gonna be playing in from the south or the opposite site on the black course, you're probably gonna be playing in from the south or the opposite direction on the red course, it plays clockwise on black days. So it alternates every other day, you play the black course or the red course.

The black course plays clockwise, the red course plays counterclockwise, obviously heavily influenced by the old course at St. Andrews, which used to play as kind of a occasionally reversible old course at St. Andrews, which used to play as kind of a occasionally reversible golf course as well. 18 greens. 18 greens, true reversible. The sum of the holes on the red, if you add up the whole number on red to the whole number on black, it is, it always equals 18. And a couple of things, I mean, I think it's pretty,

hopefully it's pretty straightforward, you know, explaining kind of the reversible concept. It's the greens and teas are obviously pretty close to each other for reasons that you would expect. It's all pretty much the same corridors, but there's a lot of interesting stuff that has to go into the design of a place like this. We were lucky enough to sit down with Tom for 30, 40 minutes.

Cody and I did a lengthy interview with him. And I think that honestly opened up a lot of the loop for me. Unfortunately, it was the day after we had played 36 holes. I had gotten my teeth kicked in and full context here. I shot a bazillion at the loop. I shot the high, I think I shot 95 on the black course, which is probably the highest round I've shot in five years. And some of that is to what Tram was saying when you're playing the duel, they have a lot

of good players, there were a lot of plus handicaps. So they were trying to set it up as difficult as possible. And I think a lot of that difficulty, which we'll get into, sure, at least, is in the greens. It's a super wide golf course. There's plenty of space to drive the ball out there. The real challenge is hitting into those greens. The greens are severely undulated. Pin placements were extremely difficult

where we were playing. And it's a lot of, you know, 370 yard par-fives out there, essentially, right? It's just pins that are not accessible. It's really, really, really hard to get to. And a lot of that we can talk about, you know, some of the reasons behind that. But I, is really, really, really hard to get to. And a lot of that, we can talk about some of the reasons behind that, but I think before we get there, just some kind of interesting demographic stuff,

I think when you, I think first, I know someone said this on film when we were doing our debrief, but I mean, it's a really, no matter what you think of the golf course, it's a true genius execution to lay this out, to think about it from that many different angles, to think about something as simple as at its most basic level when you have a 200 yard par three, that green's going to have to be a little bit back to front, to be a little receptive of a long iron coming in there,

and then thinking about what that has to be coming back the other way so that the ball's not just completely running away from you I know there were some you know instances of where it felt like that was not thought all the way through to at least Some of the folks in this in this group, but just going through that exercise constantly 36 times and figuring out all of those different problems and Not only that but making sure that you can that it doesn't feel like you're playing the same eight, it feels like you're playing 36 different greens instead of playing 18 different greens.

Well, the only thing I'll add, but I didn't have appreciation for it in the middle of playing it was not moving the pins, right? It probably makes a lot more sense to have like a pin you would use on the red and a pin you would use on the black and not have them overlap. Right, like that's the way the course is designed and that is not the way we experience the course.

So take that, you know, with some of our feedback that I think is about to come. And I think that, keep that in mind. I think also hearing Tom talk about the piece of land that it sits on and how actually having a kind of more relatively boring, pretty flat, pretty nondescript piece of land is actually a benefit to a reversible golf course because you just can't do, you know,

you can't have big, massive elevation changes where you're hitting this dramatic, great T-shot downhill to this scenic part three. I mean, when that plays the other way and you've got all of a sudden hit up 40 feet, 50 feet, like it just doesn't work. And so extrapolate that out towards, you know, really big mounds,

or really big boulders, or rock faces, or water features, or all these different things. Just, it's so much easier for a reversible golf course to work on a relatively boring piece of land that it would be some crazy dramatic piece of land. So I thought that was really interesting, which I thought the land was more lively than I thought it was gonna be.

That was my big takeaway. One of my big takeaways was I was expecting a true like St. Andrews flat piece of land kind of nondescript and no like there was a lot more elevation and you know relief there than I even like it just didn't pick that up at all and any of the pictures or the videos that I'd seen. The other thing that was really interesting I kind of mentioned it but making sure that your 18 greens feel like 36 different greens you you have to really, he had to think a ton about changing the angles by which you're approaching these greens the second time around.

And you know, meaning that a golf hole, you know, if you're looking at the green, I'm trying to think of a specific example, but let's just say you're looking at a green that looks really narrow and long, you long, to your first time around, making sure that that thing looks really wide and shallow. You're second time around. He does a good job of moving that around and making all those shots feel really different. It doesn't really feel like you're,

it doesn't really feel like you just hit rewind, right? And play the same holes twice. It really feels like you are, at least to me, it felt like you're playing 36 different holes. And I thought that was really, really cool. Who's next? I can go next.

I am thrilled that this concept exists. I think it's awesome. I think it's really good for a resort, like four students, to maximize the value of one piece of land. I think the turf was great. I love playing on the Fescue. Sally was raving about the sound that Paul makes coming off of land. I think the turf was great. I love playing on the Fescue. Sally was raving about the sound that ball makes coming off of it. It's, you know, putting on Fescue greens is always difficult. I think it's like poet's and attitude.

Grass on the greens. Like, I had a tough time reading puts and just a lot, a lot going on. And I would like to see this concept done again elsewhere. Like I think, you know, it's really cool. It's really invigorating. It sparked a lot of discussion with us. I do think that the two courses take away from each course itself. Like I felt like the black course would have been better without the red course and vice versa.

I felt like it was interesting to hear that maybe the red course is the primary routing because I felt much more like the black course were the more natural approach shots. I felt like on the red side, a lot of blind shots, not blind, but not a good view of what's going on on a green where there's a ton going on. So that to me, especially down the stretch.

Yeah, I felt, I don't wanna say unfair, maybe unfair. Again, it has to do with where the pins were, but just like, man, what, what's the point, you know, a little bit of just frustration in, and one thing we talked about is, one thing I loved about Diamond Springs is that there's one or two big features that are that you're navigating that can either help you or repel you. I felt like there were thousands and thousands of little minds, little landmines, little mounds, little landmines, little mounds, little humps that it was just a game of chance in a lot of places. And that, to me, gets a little old over time when it's every single hole where it's like,

yeah, sure, I can try from 150 yards out to hit that one hump. But if I miss that hump, I'm going to hit these three over here or these four over here. And God knows where the ball is going to go. And that gets a little frustrating on repeat. So I know TC felt like it might have been over-shaped. I found myself agreeing with that. I didn't feel like I was trying to put the strategic shot.

I was trying to hit the middle of the green a lot. And I felt like it was still like, yo, I don't know what to do. I don't have that shot. I think what's interesting is, and I know a lot of this probably comes from hearing Tom's actual explanation of it, but, and I'm probably gonna wait

into some fairly eye-roly, pretentious territory here. Can we talk about it? Can I get one thing in before you do this? I don't think we've emphasized enough how firm this place was, in terms of like a shout out to the conditioning and capturing the essence of,

I know it's not technically Link's golf, but like 100 million percent they got it, which is a contributing factor to a lot of the discussion of, I know it's not technically Link's golf, but like 100 million percent they got it. Which is a contributing factor to a lot of the discussion points, right? We're talking about the firmness of these greens, the firmness of these fairways, and the Humps and Bumps and Mounds that come with it. Like it was as fast and firm as I have played in the United

States. Rob does a great job with a pretty skeleton crew, I think, too. I think there's certain stuff that he'd like to do more of, like, cutting down some of the native in certain spots, you know, especially on 18 for the red course. Right. Like, a long down the right there. But going back to your point about the greens, you know,

I think they're actually bent. It's like a bent. Okay. Fescue mix, but the bent kind of takes over. And that's the other thing I think they struggle with ergonomically is the bent gets attracted to all of the spots that are irrigated. And so there's a little ring of bent that kind of slows things down into the greens.

In the greens. What I was gonna say there was, it feels like I'm probably gonna wait into some pretentious territory here, but I felt like it was a true work of art and like a controversial work of art. In that, I don't think, I think a lot of the complaints are totally justified

and valid in that this ball didn't do what I thought it was gonna be or this shot was way to turn up for a 15-handy cap or whatever, but I just don't think that Dope either cares about that or is trying to do that. I didn't get the sense at all that he's trying to mimic like, okay, this game of golf that you're playing in Grand Rapids at Pogom's Run should translate to this golf course. I think what he's legitimately trying to say is like, no, I'm asking you to play like

a different thing. And for you and your skill level, this might be a par 83 straight up. And like if you can't hit that shot, then yeah, maybe you're not good enough to try to hit that shot. Maybe what you should be doing is playing short of this green and bump it up. And for some people, I think that's totally not fair.

And like that's not what they are interested in. But if I was going out there and playing a match against somebody and just trying to beat them, I think it's really an interesting way to think about it. And the way that he said it, I basically asked him, I'm like, what do you think? Like, what do you think about people who say it's too hard

or say that it's unfair? And he was, I basically said, like, do you think people need to change the way that they play golf to play your courses? He said, no, I think they need to change the way that they think about playing golf to play these courses. And he's like, everybody who steps on that course has the ability to get the ball in the hole.

It just might not be like the traditional route that they're thinking. It might take you three shots to hit the green. It might take you four shots to hit the green, but like that's the challenge. That's where I push back on that because I truly was emphasizing, like I am playing safe here. I'm playing the

smart shot. I'm trying to play on the ground. I'm trying to play away from this. I'm trying to play your game, Tom. I'm trying to play your game, Tom, and I'm cool with Bogey here, and I'm still making double. And I'm cool with you making me think, and I'm cool with landed it not near the pin, and I'm cool of finding a route and considering all of the risks, and all that is my favorite part of golf, is like trying to unpack my route to a hole. Or, you know, how to like, straight, from the tee all the way back to the tee,

like, all right, well, I gotta play up the left because I can't come in from the right because this is gonna run away from me and this, this overall theme of this green is gonna make the ball do this. And the, it just didn't seem like, you know, it felt like taking an exam, it had a lot of exam analogies, it felt like taking an exam, it looked a lot of exam analogies.

I felt like taking an exam, and then you walk out of the exam, and you're kinda like, well, not only was none of that in the study guide, I couldn't even, I couldn't have prepared myself for it. That wasn't the class I attended. But that's where it's also fucking resort. No, the, the,

it's all like a private club that's called it. But it's a resort that times it. No, I play to the same side of the green. I do everything like, yeah, man, I'm playing so sensible. And then because of how mounted some of these greens are, it's like, I'm three putt, I'm chipping. It's like, it was almost like the closer I got to the whole, the harder it got.

Yeah, I'm getting physically angry right now. Like this is so good. I love hearing you guys bit. And that's what I, the only thing I know. I'm not bitching about the challenge. I'm bitching about trying to do, I'm trying to, no, no, I'm trying to explain that I went in, doing exactly what it sounds like,

Dokes said I should be doing, and still be in like, just maybe you didn't do the right job of it. DJ, go, finish your, finish your thought thought and then I'm gonna fucking go off. Please, before you do, I just would like to point out that on this exam, one team shot a, best ball, 63 gross. That's fine. They're also like the head golf coach at State

or Northwestern or Northwestern. That's what I'm saying, I think it was five. Yeah, I think it was a true like par 83 the day that we played it. And it's not, I don't mind like shooting a big number or like, yes you do. You really don't. You really don't. No, I am fine with like a golf course,

like kicking my ass if like, if it was, you know, all right, you know what, I just didn't execute on this day and this exacerbated this. And but when you walk off and you're kind of like, dude, honestly, I could hit that same shot again. I don't know what I would do. I, that's, that, it was a little, that Randy, I'm with Sully on this one.

I'm, I'm, it's a little bit of chaos throw my hands up of like, there's no strategy to it. That's, that's what I'm getting at. DJ just said that's Tom's thing. He's like, you're thinking of like, the same shots you've hit elsewhere. No. No.

No, I changed my ball flight for this day and I love that. I want to go with artwork. This is like hanging a freaking abstract Jackson Pollock on my wall. It's like, yo, I don't really need the paint splatter. And that's what I'm saying. It's like, that's fine. Maybe it wasn't designed for you to love it. But what I'm to Randy's point or something we discussed is like, dude,

it's fucking jammed with people who absolutely love getting their key tickets. It's a great concept. I think, all right. So first and foremost, final thing, just setting up. The morning we played, the first morning we played, we played the red, correct? And it was as spicy and doubt up as it possibly could be. The greens were slick as glass. It rained in between 18s, and the golf course,

not only did we all enjoy the black more, I think it will get to probably why that is. If the course felt way more playable, and the mounds felt more appropriate after just a slightest amount of rain, would you guys agree with that? And a little bit of light. A little bit of light.

A little bit of light so you could see some of the features. And then I'm a little bit more. First impression we got with something so turned up, like just total rejection everywhere. That was why I said earlier, like hey, it's important to keep in mind. And so I think this is a course, kind of like Cabot links where like,

you gotta play it 10 times to really formulate, but there's certain themes that carried through for me that I just didn't care for, right? I thought I went in thinking that, you know, and again, this is a me problem, but, you know, and we're in, Dough, can I just on different pages here? But like I went in thinking

from an old course perspective, there's a couple, maybe, you know, two, three features on each hole that are gonna dictate the strategy for the entire hole, a bunker here or a big turned up mound here or whatever. I felt like he was throwing 35, 40 things every time. I felt like the challenge was, you know, it's like making a bet. Like I felt like I was having to pull off an 18 parlay on every approach.

I'm with you on that. And then also like to where you're definitely flying blind on this course, I get why there it's tough place to staff for caddies, Ross Common Mission is very remote. So you got to have a better yardage book. I think there's so much going on if Doke wants to ask all of these questions and present all these unique specific challenges on every hole, you got to tell us what the challenges are, especially on some of the holes down the stretch on the red course where it's a green

that's running away from you that's pushed up and you can't see anything that's going on up on, and I thought the flat spots on some of the greens were just way too small. You know, to where like, hey, like I know what I'm supposed to do here. I know what he's asking me to do. And like, I legitimately just can't do it.

Yeah. Right, I think the, I thought it was over-shaped. I thought it was drastically, drastically over-shaped. No, the part I don't like with you and now. Hold on, hold on, hold on. Randy's laughing, I wanna push back. Hold on, the art stuff. I thought I felt like I played 70 to 80% of the greens out there

or pushed up to the point where like, I felt all day like I was hitting the same shot over and over again. I was chipping, I was chipping uphill to a tiny little plateau. I just felt like that was the test, right? Can you chip uphill, can you, or put it for that matter? There were certain greens that I didn't like on either direction. There were certain greens that I thought were great

both directions. I did appreciate how he mixed up the angles that you're coming in. I thought a great example of that was like the fourth hole on black, that's an awesome green. Some of the par threes were super interesting. I'll say a comment to your point, a theme tying this all together,

the firmness and the slickness of the golf course contributes to this where a slope might be eight feet tall in certain cases and if it would have been 18 inches, it would play the same. It's gonna have the same effect. It's gonna reject balls, but it's so dramatic that you are paying, like, the next shot is that much, like, I don't know what the analogy is there, but it's like, all right, I can't high jump eight feet, and I also can't high jump 12 feet.

So the different, like, make it eight feet and little overdone. And, all right, I want to go back to the art thing for a second or or docks Well, you should think about it differently. I take Exception with the vibe of that to me is well, you just don't get it man. Just feel so fucking airing No, no, you don't you well, you just don't get it. You just you're just never gonna understand. I am a Fucki golf junkie. I'm here trying to understand Help me understand. I want to appreciate your work. And it's like, based on what you're telling me,

give a fuck if I appreciate it or not. No, I think he'd be very open to talking through any shot on the golf course. Okay, well I would love to talk through it with you. I enjoy the experience, but I had some. I was going to speak to the manager. I know, I thought it was a little, I'm with TC and then I thought it was just a little

over the top and in Several places and I just need more information on how like how to do some of this stuff or like on the that closing stretched on red Where it's like you know those those four or five greens are like running directly away from me or even on black. What was that said? 16 or 17 at green. I was like, Oh, the beer, it's, yeah. What we supposed to do here, like this is, and then, you know, like, to me, it just felt like all the pushed up, I felt like I was hitting the same shot

into a bunch of pushed up greens the whole day. And like, that to me, it takes me back to, a lot of my other dope experiences at Barn Boogell or Pacific Dunes or not as much at Ballon Neal, but like, it just feels fucking mean spirited. I think, yeah, I totally agree, see, this is where it's gonna seem like I'm talking

about both of them. You're on the fence, Pie Man. No, I'm totally on the fence. I, that's why I prefaced it with like, yo, I got my fucking ass kicked. Do you think I had a good time with that? No, it was horrible. I guess that's the thing.

I was like, I walked off the course. I was miserable after the moment. Shooting 95. And like legitimately didn't wanna I guess that's the thing. I was like, I walked off the course. I was miserable after the moment. Shooting 95. And like legitimately didn't want to go back out in the afternoon. Like I had that little fun. And that's what I'm trying to say is like, okay, if I'm going to Band-In and I have to play,

you know, would I rather play 10 rounds at sheep ranch or would I rather play 10 rounds at Pacific Dunes, I would pick sheep ranch a million times out of a million because I don't, I'm not good. Like I don't like grinding and trying to hit tiny little shelves and trying to do all these different things. What I'm saying and what I have the utmost respect for when it comes to dope stuff is like,

at least he's trying to do something different. He's not trying to do a carbon copy of other things. He's trying to put his own stamp on stuff. And I think that's fucking awesome and it's probably really hard to do. But to this, and this is where I know Randy Loan credit for. Yeah, which I know Randy's gonna disagree with this part.

Are you though? Yes, I think I'm thrilled. I is a very unique experience and I like the concept. I just think it's overdone. Well, to that point, it's my stake. Yeah, this would have been a great, that cannot think of a better opportunity to flex the subtlety muscle than a reversible course.

Like the subtle features that you design around could have been the defined, and that's again, what I was expecting and that is a total hand up Randy, that is maybe that's my own fault. Speciations were down there. Yeah, that's whatever. But like when I'm thinking about the old course

in the reversible nature of that, like it's just a couple of mounds, couple bunkers that really would have structured the way you would play that. And I was looking forward to that part of the challenge and there are elements of that. But I think, I honestly think it's probably like six greens that are just like, it's not a coincidence that the holes I liked going one way on red, I also liked going

on black and the ones I didn't like on red, I didn't really like on black. It's just a few greens that are just like, man, I've never really been like, dope does too much crazy green stuff until this golf course. 17's a perfect example. 17 on red. It's this 185 yard par three. And there's this ramp up in front of it that's like eight feet tall and you're supposed to land it short and run it up this ramp. But like the, all right, what happens if you don't run it up the ramp or it's impossible. You can't hit it into the ramp

because it's going to kill it. So you have to hit this five foot square area that, you know, and then bounce it up and dribble it up there where like I like you're talking to someone who I love getting in a yardage book and plotting my way around a golf course and getting technical as fuck out there. Like I just didn't feel like I could even do that here. I felt like he was just throwing so much at me that the test got so randomized and watered down to where it's like, I just threw my hands up and I'm like, well shit man, like what, you know, what am I supposed to do? Or, or you're just not good enough.

And he's like, he jays point. And that's not a shot on you, Tron. I'm not good enough. But there are people that are. Like that's, I think that's what I, like, I don't, I'm not trying to convince you guys to like the chorus, but it's not bad because it was hard for you.

I understand, and I think it's, you know, it's some, no, and like, I don't even mind that it's hard. It's just, I don't like when it's hard and it's doing, and not possible in some spots. It's doing, yeah, it's doing, like, I can't bail out somewhere. I'm gonna be hitting that same shot regardless of whether I hit a good shot or a pretty mediocre shot.

They're both gonna end up in the same spot. I'm gonna have to hit a great shot and I get what he's trying to do there. It just felt like going back to the over-shaped thing. It took away from a lot of the brilliance for me. I think he could have asked the exact same questions and even turned up the strategy and having to tack your way around the golf course. Even more if you knew exactly, you know, just not simplify it, but just kind of codify it a little bit more. And it's probably again not a coincidence that some of my favorite greens had some kicker

of some kind that could be used in either direction, right? The shoot, what is the, there's a long par three on the red, I think it's number 11, which would make the par four, short par four, number seven on black, where you had kicker along the left side. Okay. You could hit a big kicker along the left side that was going to feed your ball to the back right spot where the pin was the fourth hole on black, the 14th hole on red, 14th to par three on red, four holes, four holes a short par four, had like a half pipe that you could run, like you wanted to play up the left and like hit a shot through the half pipe and that was awesome.

Like that kind of stuff would, is, is, is for me, again, this is a personal thing and I think you're along the same lines T.C. That is more fun. Maybe it's easier, and that's what makes it more fun, other than watching balls get rejected, like legitimately 15 of the 18 greens, that's just a lot, you know? And when they're all pushed up,

it's like there's nowhere to play it off of, right? You're just, all right, there's this shelf here, and then there's this little knob here, and there's this other shelf here, and all that, but but there's no runaway truck ramp or anything like that. I get that and you got to land it short and bounce it on and all that. But listen, I'm a three or four handicap and I'm like, if I'm not having fun out there then maybe it's like my expectations are out of whack, but I don't mind going out and shooting 85 on a golf course. Like, that's totally fine.

But like, did I have fun shooting the 85, or was it a, did I feel like I was, I had a variety of different challenges? And I guess that's what I'm saying here is like, I didn't feel like I had a variety of different challenges. I felt like I was hitting the same fucking shot around. That's exactly it.

That's my pushback to Randy's point. Hard, it's like the same hard on repeat of like, oh, can you hit this touchy chip? And if you're on the right side of the hole, you got to go over 15 mounds in the green. If you're on the short side, it's like, I'm, you know, yeah, definitely bone. But I'm bone up both sides. It's the same concept of like having to, having to, I'm sorry, Neil, I put on repeat. Like, am I allowed, why am I not allowed to say

that that's not very fun? You're totally not. That I didn't enjoy. I'm not saying that. I thought that it's akin to, with the US Open, like pitching out sideways from crazy ass rough all day. Like, it's a technical challenge and you gotta hit the fairway. But like, you know, at some point, let's introduce some other variables or challenges here.

I thought in certain areas, there was too much Heather close to like a corner or just-. I thought in certain areas, there was too much Heather close to a corner or just. Weird Heather cut it. More for life. And that's more just for your resort retail guest. And maybe I'm turning into Matt Genello where he bitched at Dope for the last decade

about his greens or two turned up and food severe. And I haven't felt like that at certain places. Pacific dunes, I like Pacific dunes. There's certain courses where I, you know, Ballyneal, for instance, I love Ballyneal, common ground. Like I like some of dope stuff. There's just certain instances.

And this was one where I thought the conditioning almost matched up too well with the style of play where I bitched about it at a barn boogle where you couldn't use some of the slopes and you because it was just a little bit hairy around there, whereas I think on the flip side here it was like you almost couldn't use some of the slopes because it was going to funnel off way too far or I don't know all that. I just like it gets me. I haven't felt like that walking off a golf course and maybe this is his intent, but like

I haven't felt like that walking off golf course where like you maybe this isn't his intent, but I haven't felt like that walking off golf course would be like, you know, like, I don't even really want to play this afternoon. I'd love to go back and play, you know, red, like, I would love to go back for like a four day trip and play red four times and black four times and really dig in and understand the intricacies and play it from different teas

and play to, you know, different pans and everything like that. And the people of Michigan are lucky that they can go do that. But for playing each course one or two times during a trip, like, I'm not able to get that deep. I'm 100% believe it would grow. Like if we went back and didn't play it in the duel, I think our reactions would be different.

And just knowing, even I've heard other people say this too, like your set, whatever course you play second, you're more likely to enjoy more, just because you know what the green does. Like you have an, oh, I remember when we came in from this one, all right, now I know there's this slope here, I need to worry about this bunker blah blah blah blah, that helped so much the second time around.

So much. All we can do is share my experience. Experience. And I think I agree, I think I would end up liking it more and more. I liked it better the second time around. A good example of the, one of my favorite holes out there that I thought was one of the most subtle was 18 on black. It was a short car for.

I hit it, what I thought was a great drive up the left side, plenty of room, and there was one bunker, and the pin was on the back left shelf, and I had to hit a 50 yard 60 degree wedge to a 40 foot putt and I was thrilled about it. And it was all of that grass up to the green before it elevated on the green was flat. Which to me.

And it was like, yo, I was thrilled to make par there. And that shows you that, like that shows me that you get the concept. You're not, like, it's not like we're asking for a trophy when we didn't accomplish anything. It's not, it doesn't have to be easy. Like that, that just very much was like, ugh!

I should have known that he met. I should have known like, yeah, it looks like this left side is safe, but if I challenged the Heather on the right, I would have been able to get close to the pin. And that's interesting to me. What's not is on every other hole, it felt like there were 15 like pimples. Yeah.

You know, like almost like freaking guard towers on the castle wall, like, oh, sorry, but all around the green. Right. Randy will give you the last word. Well, we talk a lot about slopes on greens. And I just, I'm not a fan of random humps and bumps, and that's what I felt like was on repeat on this golf course.

I love broad gradual slopes. I love funnel pins, because those putts are not easy. I don't love when it just feels, and again, the pins are really diabolical spots for this event specifically. Which compared to Pacific dunes, I feel like it Pacific dunes, it's big. It's long broad slopes.

It's big, one or two like blowout bunkers, big features, very difficult, but like, I don't know, just a little bit more. And it's not minimalist, right? Like that's the thing. It's like you can tell all the shit we're shaped and all this stuff. Like it's kind of like with Hans's black course

it's stream song where you've got the punch bowl. Oh, and it's like, it's not a punch bowl. It's like a fucking dumpster, right? There's all these little ridges all over it. And there's no discernible strategy to it. It's like, hey, just throw it in the dumpster and see where it ends up, right? You know, I do want to give a shout out, like Tyler and Don,

who run the duel. It was one of the most well-run, great. I think I've ever been to. I loved it. You know, talking to Super Tenant, Rob, just like you can tell there's a certain element of pride there and I'm really like, I'm excited to go back and play it because I wanna dig deeper, I wanna go see it.

It's just, this is just my stuff that's, I'm trying to take all my reflections with a green assault, but I can't get away from feeling like it was over-shaped and there were too many pushy greens. And on top of what it felt like was 20 minutes of us bemoaning the place, I highly recommend people go and play it. I'd be curious to hear other people's feedback. Yeah, I think it's a really awesome, it's a lightning rod a little bit and I think that's

awesome. That's what I'm glad it exists, which is what I started with. I thrilled it exists. That's it, man. Like God, like this is more passion than we get walking off of 99% of places that we ever play. And I think that is like dope fly the banner, mission accomplished.

But I feel like it's the kind of passion that like social media gives our society of like it's getting me all amped up in the wrong way. Which I think a lot of that. Like I wanted to walk off and like punch me fucking face. Yeah, it's like in raging. It's like, wait, wait, is that good though? He did do any of it.

Which until you do play it 10 times, like that's your feeling now. Sure, I think you have to realize that's after playing each routing one time and under mega tricked up dual condition. You've been there multiple times. What was your takeaway this time?

I played it three years ago in the dual and it was not nearly as tricked up and I thought I really enjoyed it. I mean, even this year, I'm a 10 handicap. I didn't come close to losing a ball. I played 36 holes with one ball. Like, there's a lot of things that it's... I could complete the course. And for me, it's a bogey golf course. Like, I should be very happy playing bogey golf there.

And if I play better, then that's awesome. And if I play worse, then, you know, I wasn't playing as well. I just... I'm not telling you any of your thoughts or experiences are wrong, but I just, from like a bigger picture, I hope it doesn't come off as like, it's not a good golf course,

or it's not an interesting concept, or somehow it's like a flawed place, because I think it's doing exactly what Dope wants it to do, and I think it's a fabulous golf course. I think you have to be extremely explicit. And this was a big lesson I learned because I think I've for sure fallen into this trap, but there's a massive difference between saying,

quote, I didn't like that and quote, that is bad. Right? Those are two very different things. And I fell both. That's fine. But I insert now just to agree. There's some, and, but I insert now, there's some stuff that's in me problem. And there's some stuff that like, yo man, like you

purport to be a minimalist golf course architect and, and strategic and this and like, it felt like the worst elements of penal golf to me in certain spots. I would echo rainy sentiment about not losing a ball. Love that about the place. I guess where I, I net out is it was, I see place where I guess I think it could be better, which all, you know, like,

well nobody cares. Fetters towards what you like. And better towards like other courses. Better towards what Tron saying in the strategic elements of the golf course. I feel like there's spots where it could be more subtle to be more strategic. And that seems to be what Dope is all about.

That's like going up to a piece of art in a gallery and saying, well, I could make this better for everybody. It's like, no, dude, like, no, no, no, no, no. Not on purpose. It's based on my experience listening to Dope on podcasts, listening to talk about his, how he thinks about golf and playing his other golf courses. That's where I'm getting that from. It's not me saying I could make it more strategic. It's me saying a little bit more restraint in certain areas, like number 18 being the example of him doing less and making the course better.

And I will say that's where the art analogy ends for me because you don't like look at a golf course. You go and experience it and a bunch of people experience it in very different ways, right? And it's one thing to just, that it's a much more immersive experience than just like looking at a painting of different ways, right? And it's one thing to just, that it's a much more immersive experience than just like looking at a painting of some kind, right? And I'll push back.

And our friends would push back on, you know, not experiencing art. So just to fight you on a little bit of something else, Randy, my scores were fine. I think I shot 73, 74 on the two days. I'm not, I don't need my score to be low to enjoy it. It's the actual enjoyment of the shots, right? In the enjoyment of the challenge.

And I've had much better times shooting 82 than I did, you know, getting to 73, 74, whatever on those questions. I would argue it's probably a better match play course than a stroke play, which is, totally. I love match play golf courses, right? You throw the strokes out the window. I just thought like at some point, like it's like, you know, the prevailing wind

is coming from the west or southwest and like, you know, the last three or four holes on the red or like the green feeds away from you. It's pushed up. You can't see anything that's going on and they're downwind. Like, what the fuck am I supposed to do, Tom? Figure it out, man. I think that's the whole point.

I guess that's why I come back to people do figure it out. You know? You see, you'll never understand. It just, it reeks a lot to me of just like, I would just, if Radiohead just like had more hooks, it would be easier to listen to. It would be more fun. That's such an area.

That's what it's like. That's what it's like. But that would be fair to listen to. It would be more fun. That's such an everyday. That's what it's like. That's what it's like. But that would be fair if I didn't listen to every single radiohead album and like a lot of them. Like I just, I guess. What the whole thing is, they're trying to probably do something different with each album. Maybe he's trying to do something different here.

I know he's trying to do something different. And that's great. And I like the car. That's for me, not all that landed. And that's fine. Yeah, totally. All right. I think that's it. That's it. Like, it's so personal. I enjoyed that thoroughly. It was cathartic. I was cathartic for sure.

I've been holding that in for like a week and a half. I think we could tell by the volume of the F-bombs. All right, let's move on to Kingsley. I think this one's gonna be a little less polarizing. Oh, God, get me back to Mike. The secret garden. T.C. tells about Kingsley. Gosh, Kingsley, what a...

Just to tell you, I think I'm gonna have to say, I'm gonnaizing. God, get me back to Mike. The secret garden. T.C. tells about Kingsley. Gosh, Kingsley, what a just happy place. What a comfortable, not easy. I mean, definitely there's a lot going on. It's, to me, we played. What, tell us about the course. Who developed it, what kind of?

I'd have re-s developed by two buddies, such business partners, late night. It was basically Diveries' first solo design. I think first kind of the solo, Mike Diveries course. It's in... 2001. It's in Kingsley, Michigan,

which is about 25 minutes south of driver's city. Pretty extreme farmland, a slash timber. They had taken some of the trees out for timber. There's some exposed rock out there. But to me, it felt a lot like we played the mines, programs were on diamond springs. University of Michigan, you can certainly see degrees as inspiration from that course

as well as crystal downs. And then we played gray walls as well. So there's a current of Mike D'Vries running through this season. But to me, Sally, to your point, like, I've never been a place before we get to the golf course. I've never been a place where they've got a big national membership in the clubhouse,

which is essentially like a trailer, and the cabins and everything fits, so fits the aesthetic and the attitude of the place so perfectly. What a first impression too that play. The drive you make in and like the views you get of the golf course just to start is just like whoa, holy shit. Yeah. Top one or two first impression in the history of NLU for me. What a thrilling T-Shot? Well, no, no, even just driving up to the levels.

I love it. On the putting grid. No, they're like, what drives that? Dry stacked rock stone walls that remind you of New England. And it's a pretty big land. I mean, there's some extreme stuff, but at no point do you ever feel like you're being asked to do anything.

It plays really well on the land. And then, yeah, yeah, so that's kind of, great cabins, just really, really generous, cool national membership and local members for that matter. Kevin Frisch, who helped us put together a lot of the trip, was able to come over and play with us over there. Just fantastic asset for us on the entire, and guide kind of to Michigan,

and guide for Kingsley specifically as well But as far as the course is concerned, you know, it's still I think Mike grew in the course with Superintendent that's still there. You's fantastic to talk to great He gave that guy great title. So the best guy I've ever seen grow grass in my life Which again, and this is kind of a repeat theme on this podcast, but the conditioning was just 10 out of 10. I mean, the greens were perfect. The slopes played like they should. It was firm turf all over again.

Not quite as firm as the loop, but gosh, it was just, it was everything I want golf to be. And I think, you know, just starting, like number one, it kind of gives you like, like we talked about with the other degrees courses. It gives you a sense of, hey, let, you know, here's what you're in for. Here's what the course is about today, right?

And it's, and I think there's a certain sense with a lot of these courses where it's, if you survive the first three or four holes, you're gonna have a good day, if you struggle on those, you're probably gonna struggle today. Which I think, we should have mentioned this during the loop conversation,

but I think that was a big part of it. Mentally for me, it was showing up at the loop and Getting punched in the face on the first one two three holes all the offensive all day all of a sudden You have 32 more holes in front of you where you're just like oh my god bad shit's gonna happen And it's really hard to hit good golf shots when that's your mentality It's it's interesting on the loop for me like I I actually got off to a pretty good start and I kinda had, you know, I didn't let my guard down, but I'm like, all right, I can do this, right?

And then that's where it got frustrating. And we're like, some of the stuff that he was clearly asking me to do, I thought I did it and it didn't play, I expected it to, I guess. So, but going back, I mean, you know, number one, you play up this little neck thrilling, like Mackenzie, kind of Pasatiempo, Crystal Downs, like these whole hillside of bunkers

is laid out in front of you. And not only that, but just like what, 60 yard wide fairway, 70 yard wide fairway, where it's like you could very easily, there's almost a full-sized fairway on either side of those bunkers, but your eye dramatically snaps to like, all right, I'm going right over the top of it. And it's uphill part five, but you can see the whole, the pitch laid out from you,

with the green up on the hill in the distance. Right over there. Yeah, and then you play part three next. And then there's a really, really difficult part four in a row. Part three on the car, but as you know, the members will call it the shortest part five on the golf course. Correct. It's a crazy difficult hole. It's a test of distance control.

And then I thought, like really for me, I thought the four was crazy hard, Ben had one of the best. We mixed up, there's plenty of T-boxes. You can play cross country golf here all day long too. There were a few spots where I looked over to green and I'm like, oh, okay, like there's an X hole. Like there's clearly an X hole.

It looks like the most handsome hole you've ever seen. It's like, oh, actually, that's not even a hole. Really for me, I thought, I thought six was really cool. Like that stretcher of six, you know, I know you loved seven. Love seven. Loved it. Seven's got this massive, massive hillside

that cuts into the fairway. All right, really, really a couple, but this massive hillside that cuts into the fairway. All right, really, really a couple, but this massive hillside that cuts into the fairway both where you land your drive and then you gotta play around that hillside kind of coming back in for your second shot as well. And it just tricks your eye and there's the standard trees down the left.

You know, what'd you love about seven? It definitely had shades of number three at... I loved, what I loved about seven was, and I want to preface this by saying, Mike DeVries spent the whole day with us out there, which was absolute treat. What a legend. Basically, let's go back to the art analogy.

The artist walking around, wanting you to enjoy his work, wanting to explain to you, wanting to hear what you think of it, and then explain to you what he's thinking, was a great way to experience the golf course. Number seven specifically. I'm standing on the tea with them and It's a par five. I'm reaching for driver and he's like I'm gonna tell you right now You cannot hit driver here, and that's the point. I'm taking driver out of your hands It's a three a true three shot par five. You can see it all out in front of you

You're still gonna reach for driver. I'm not gonna tell you not to, but let's see what happens. And the way that the fairway can't so away from that hill up the right, sends all drives. You can't, it's almost impossible to shoot driver through in front of those trees. But when you're down behind the trees, which is where I was, you're not dead.

You still three shot Part five, but now you have to hit a different type of golf shot. If you played it smart with three wood or driving iron or whatever, off the tee, you have a much better, he said to me, he's like, you could go, it's not a long par five, you could go three wood three wood here. If you lay back off the tee,

but you're not gonna do that, that's fine. It's, you know, you're still gonna... I've watched your videos, I know you're not gonna do that. Of course. And then the green, I found, you know, interesting. Get the real reason why you like this whole. What's that? You buried it twice.

No, I buried it once. Oh, okay. I made Bogey the second time. And I played it smart the second time. But I feel like it was a Mad Max Fury Road type hole, which I always like. There's just stuff happening everywhere. But if you're just sensible, you can...

And disciplined. And disciplined, there is a way to make birdie. And even when I hit the wrong club off the tee, I made birdie, you know, the hard way, basically. But you're not out of the hole, and I thought it was a very strategic, interesting, unique golf hole. I'm struggling to kind of think of a comp for Kingsley, like that, that kind of inland, but tons of land movement, yet all the subtleties you really want.

For me, or remind me a lot of Positampo, where you've got some, especially the back-night in a Positampo, where you've got some, you're going up and down these hills, and it was like Positampo and crystal downs out of place. But the vibe of the place, remind me of, I should preface this, a private version of Sweet and Skov in the way that that's a place I could spend all day at,

play different teas, play different games, play cross country and not get bored. That's the kind of, it's unique, there's not a lot of courses where it's like, sign me up for two or three days, right here. I'm not going anywhere. It's truly about golf as well. I'm gonna play this course five or six times

and can't wait to get back out there. I don't remember me of Carn. Honestly. Yeah, that's where I needed to go. I was asking Mike about, he traveled around Ireland and Scotland and was picking his brain a little bit. I was like, have you been to Carn?

He's like, no, I haven't. I was like, that's funny enough. That's kind of where some of these mounds and the dramatic landscape here, that's the place that some of the fairway and the dramatic landscape here. That's the place that Some of the fairway sloping and I actually watched the car in episode of Taurus off last night getting ready for this And it was just like yeah seeing some of those dips and and you know hollows and things like that really kind of set the scene there But and we started about the mines. We said about pilgrims around in Diamond Springs

I mean Mike is truly reacting to what the land is right. He He's not trying to, he's trying to make it feel like what it feels like probably the first time he walked that piece of property, right? And it's dramatically different from Pilgrim's run. I mean, the same principle is kind of carried through, but it's truly honoring the landscape, which is pretty cool. I thought, and it was a big relief for us, I think, after we all love Diamond Springs and Pilgrim's run

so much, I think for Mike to show up and be like such a wonderful guy. He kind of reminded me like Craig teen Ellsson from Coach. Just such a unit also. Yeah, just kind of a, I had to say it's a joke, but kind of a, you know, kind of remind me like a hockey player. Hockey guy. Yeah, it's like, very, you know, the boys are coming. We got to host them. Yeah, there was no other option.

36 holes to it. I know. I know. He went out for nine with us. He was water-skating with his son. He just absolutely ripped up his hamstring. He had one of the gnarliest bruises ever seen on his hamstring. And like I know, he flew over to London yesterday,

when we're recording this too, he's working over there at the adding tin, he's got seven mile beach going with clates down in, in Macoggan down in Tasmania. Cause like I just straight up asked him after the morning round, I was like Mike, like I don't want this to come off as condescending or negative or anything like that.

But like why don't I play, like why haven't I played dozens of like debris golf courses around the world? Cause like this is between, and this is before we even got to gray walls. Like playing your stuff was the highlight of the trip for me and probably one of the highlights of the lat of no laying up just in general. Like these light bulbs going off and just playing such thoughtful

golf and it's all like it's, you know, he's got great relationships with the superintendents. He's got great relationships with all these courses still. Like he's like such a thoughtful brilliant designer and like let's like like fuck like band in higher this guy. San Valley higher this guy. Pinehurst higher this guy, pine her, hire this guy, like there's so much more room in the sandbox for these guys to play in that's outside of,

which DMK's brilliant and Dokes, obviously brilliant if polarizing, core and crunch are brilliant, Hans is brilliant, like Mike DeVries is on that level, he's fucking brilliant. Yeah, and the body of work is there. It's not, to me, it's not taking a risk. And at all price points. Yeah, yeah.

So, I echo everything you just said, TC. Hopefully, yeah, hopefully that starts to happen. More, just outside of Michigan. Like, it's great that you can play in Michigan, but this is my first time playing Mike Dvreeze courses. I can't wait to play more. And I think seven mile beat would be a big part of that too. I mean, if that makes as big a splash as everybody kind

of thinks it will, I'm sure that'll make it a lot more of a household name, which is. Cape Wickham, we didn't get there. But, you know, and I think, you know, like, talking about Kingsley, like, you know, eight was an awesome short, like, shortest par four, super strategic, massive centerline bunker there.

And then nine was like, nine was like the Colosseum of Colossus. Cata holes awesome. It was like this, there was this alternate, there was like three alternate T-voxes. You basically play it from like 220 different degrees. And you know, very, very exacting green, but so much fun up there by the clubhouse. And then I thought the back nine was even better.

I thought the back nine was hands down the better nine. Yeah. It just grew and appreciated and changed like landscapes and kind of, it's a little mixed like we said, car, but kind of reminded me a little bit of heath and golf, like a Sunday day out. Some of those holes will be they've been through, through the forest and the back part,

drivable for some really fun par fives and just crazy fun shots. Like, all right, if you carry this far enough, you're gonna hit a hill and it's gonna run for like a hundred more yards. And idyllic just talking about golf being artwork, just Mike is really into wildflowers. Like flowers, he planted all these wildflowers out there,

which I noticed right off the bat and asked him about, he's like, oh, the flowers are, you know, that's me. Like I love. It was the best native I've seen. Yeah, it was just really thoughtful. And then like, pair that with the rock walls. Raining, I found a spot, rock wall on 14, 15T. I mean, sign me up.

Well, we wanted to throw a hammock up and just hang out there for the rest of the day. And that's where I wanna, you know, going back a little bit to some of our polarizing loop discussion. Like I don't want to seem like I'm speaking on both sides of my mouth. Like would I rather play Kingsley or would I rather play the loop? Ten times out of ten I would rather play Kingsley. Like I love, it's so much more fun.

I love the slopes were designed to help you. It was, you know, there were a couple spots where there were some Mutumbo, you know, swatting the ball away. But by and large, I thought it was, you know, it's designed to help you have a enjoyable round of golf. And I don't know if we had a more enjoyable one, the whole trip. And challenge, it's challenging. Yeah, like that.

And that's where... And Kenzie. Yeah. It's a Halister McKenzie, like a modern Halister McKenzie. And that's where I emphasize and get it. I don't mind challenge. I love challenge. I play golf for the challenge.

And I don't think I scored as well challenge. I play golf for the challenge. And I don't think I scored as well at Kingsley as I did the loop. And yeah, I'm with you on like Kingsley is just that's it. Like that's what we're looking for. I think, you know, Randy, I know you're like quite taking, like I was on number 12, bunkerless hole, and just super handsome in the way of the green. There's, you know, mound on the, on the, on the left up on the green and then there's

a little fall off on the right. It's a pretty long, long par four. 13 was crazy, crazy green. Different teeing areas. It's the short par four, 280 yards from the tips. But it has turned up to a million. I thought, I'll just go ahead and spoil it right now. A 14 was, a 14 was my favorite hole we played on the entire trip.

It's way up there. That's the best reveal. Like one of the best reveals I've ever seen. Big downhill dog leg right, par five. With crests. Crests is hill. And then that's where this beautiful green sight with the flowers and the wall.

It just looks great. It plays great. It's fun. Really one of those two that, I mean, Kingsley was what, 2001, it opened. It's one of. It plays great. It's really really one of those two that I mean Kingsley was what 2000 2001 It opened. It's one of those green sites here like oh cool. That would spend there since 1875 Like that that's been there for I would say the one drawback of playing with Mike for Randy was he insisted on us playing certain T boxes that were not

Teed for the day they were they were you know all you guys got to play it from here at Randy Hates hated that you know hated that you guys got to play it from here. Randy hates, hated that. You know, hated that we weren't playing. Has gin hates it. You know, from the blue teas all day long, Randy, I'm sorry, you had to experience that. Thank you, but I thought I handled it pretty well though. I thought I was a good sport about it. You were just passively, passively upset.

I would say there was so many fun little like nooks of the course that so when we played in the afternoon on 14 I I swung as hard as I could on a drive and connected as good as I possibly goes Probably the best drive I hit on the trip and we got up there and TC was 50 yards Because he got his off the speed slot and I like I mean I couldn't have hit one better. And he got me by 50. And it was just like, oh, fuck, like, okay, there's just so many different ways you could play these holes.

And knowing like, where did you get the bounces, where you get the speed slots and stuff like that. And that's golf. Well, then 15 is 450 yard par four, straight up a hill to the screen that falls away and three sides on the front and then death bunker and back. 450 yard par four, straight up a hill to the screen that falls away and Three sides on the front and then death bunker and back and like you got to hit Two proper golf shots and even then you may still not be making par which which is a challenge at the loop

Pretty much on repeat But it's once or twice on this court and I'm like, yo, I'm down to take that on. I just, I don't want it to be the same thing every hole. And then, and then, sorry, Randy. And then, great redan on 16. 17's got one of the most severe slopes I've ever seen in a golf course. You know, you basically hit over this big hill and it's, it's gotta be like a 60 feet. It's gotta be like a 12% grade.

I mean, it's just outrageous. And then 18, just like a really cool cerebral finishing hole, it's not long, it's not gonna beat you up, but like, it's very, very, it's very technical and it's very, you know, angle oriented. Almost like a split level fairway that you can either go up top or down to the bottom, just really cool.

Yeah. It's as exciting as I've been sitting there at lunch, great food, but sitting there at lunch, I'm like, I cannot, I'm shopping at the back to get back out on this golf course. And maybe we can even play another nine after we get off. Yeah. Kingsley just captured a lot of what I love about the game of golf. Moving on, next stop on the trip is Belvedere in Charlot Voy,

am I saying that correctly? Charlot Voy. In Michigan. 1927 William Watson, public golf course. You really style. Fees range from $48 to $95. The word I come up with with Belvedere, it was just comfy.

It was extremely, extremely comfy, especially after playing Kingsley. It just looks a lot more like a traditional golf course, and that contrasting those two styles back to back was, that really was, that was hitting very well for me. It struck me also on that note is sometimes you have these courses where if you just kind of got in a cart and drove around them,

you might not be super loud, right? But once you actually like have clubs and are going out and playing it, I think it really comes to life and that's how Belvedere was for me. I think if I had just seen it from the drone or from the road or whatever, I probably would have just driven it right past,

but getting out there and playing it, you're like, holy shit, man, this is so fun. And I think, let's take this opportunity where I think if we, I know I was hard on our friend, the dokeeto, Mr. Tom Doke, I will like Bruce Hapner and Doke have been working on this for a few years and like the stuff that they've done to bring in, you know, to bring the greens out to the edges

and bring all this internal mounting in. And it was, it's a brilliant restoration. I know they're not done yet, but like, I could put that golf course for the rest of my life. Like it's like DJ, you said it during the trip, it reminded me of County Slido. Yeah, very soulful. Just elegant, soulful, throwback, vintage.

Yeah, it was just that was, that was inland golf at its best there. And it captured so much of like what we love about going to Ireland and playing places like Slido, which is like those courses just operate, it, they're private, but they're like open to people, right? And everything about Belvedere, like the super small, really quaint old school pro shop,

which is like, this is a private golf course. This is not a state road, you know? It's just no frills, but still very alien. I know, I didn't even go in the clubhouse actually, but just like it looked like a regal country club. This is a private golf course. And it's great logo, great flags. Yeah, but just everything was just super subtle.

And again, the fact that this course is readily available to the public and at that price, just kind of also just blew my mind. I love seeing we, there's a single that just rolled up to the first tee before we were getting ready to go out and just look like somebody that was there on a family vacation sneaking in a morning round, which I can't think of like a better place to do that. And again, just had proper width Like a lot of classic golf courses are just overgrown if they're not properly cared for and this was this was freeing

It wasn't like really wide fairways, but like the corridors were very wide and it was freeing off the tee Kind of there were certain holes it really dictated. Hey a a draw would play really well here, but like, if you want to hit a straight shot, you can. It might not be in the best spot, but like, you have that option here. It just never strangled you. There was a proper, just the very appropriate amount of quirk, like some real funky shots. There's a dog leg right, a par four, the sixth hole on the, on the front. Is that the one that, the crazy one that goes through the trees? Yes. Yes. Number six. Yeah. That one was just crazy one that goes through the trees? Yes, yes, yes.

Number six. Yeah, that one was just like, hey, you gotta hit like two, 15 off the tee here. Like two, 30 might be too far in your blocked out by the left tree. That hole was really cool and then getting over the back. Seven even, look where you can tell they've beefed up

this bunker down the right. Yeah. And you can bail right, but you're gonna be blind. You can have a totally blind shot or you can have a clear view at it and it's like the difference of five yards in the fairway. And then getting over to the back nine,

the 15th hole is this par five that Ben's way to the right has two totally different shelves. You can hit like a hybrid or a foreign or something to the top shelf and hit like a hybrid and another four iron into the green or you can try to hit a crazy cut to get down to the lower tier, down to the right, but you got to wrap around some trees.

It was just a couple holes, they were just like, ah, God, I want to go back and do that one again, because now I see it, and now I see how I would play it. The 16th hole blew all of our minds. It was a shortish, par four, maybe 360, something along those lines. Maybe a little less than that.

And just this, this whole, this purged up green, everything sloping left to right, and you could bail out, left up top if you want, and anything less than perfect on an approach shot is getting rejected and coming back down the hill to the right. And as I'm saying this, I'm wondering why it works so well there,

and I did not like the lot of the shots on the loop, but it just was. It's in moderation. Yeah, it was the proper, yeah, it was like just a super challenge. And I was I was smitten by by Belvedere. It just was very comfortable. I just felt very connected with the game of golf. And I don't know how to define that other than just,

it was striking all the right emotional chords for me. It's very very intimate. Yeah, kind of place. Very, very small, but very interesting. And you just felt very, like almost weirdly, like at home there, even though none of us had ever been there, except for Rania, I think. But it was, we'll get to, this one, get to, we'll wash them out, but would have been probably the second best course on the trip to play

Hickory's. Yeah. It was obviously designed for that. And with that in mind, it was a place you could keep the ball on the ground. Obviously it wasn't playing super crazy firm, but I mean, you could bounce it up there. I think I know I mentioned this eight hours ago when we started this podcast, but the fourth hole was a really, really long, was a plan, like 220, 220, 250, something like that. Part four, but it almost had a short part four type of green, just some wild

swales in there. And it just, I just, I was blown away, man. I really loved it. Great little chipping and putting green there. Great, great. Great scene on the first tee, looking down over everything. There's a little fruit stand off like you cross over the road.

There's a little fruit stand right there by 10, 10 tee. We're, we're too early for it, but it just encapsulated all the best of Northern Michigan in the summer. Which we got to mention the road. The whole front nine has Randy pointed out. The whole front nine is in the dry county, and then you cross the road into another county, which is a wet county. So if you want to get fucked up, you got to do it on the back nine now. Which we failed to mention number 10. I think the best example I've ever seen of the Muni template, the Dead Straight, right in front of you, par five.

We walked off there like, God, deal, it's gonna love this. Beautiful golf ball, beautiful golf ball. And the last thing I'd like to say is, I would like to pitch the committee on renaming the superintendent of Haberdashir. A very elegant course, it felt like an old man in a very dapper three piece sheet.

That's how I would sum up the... Greens were... Habard Asher's do hats though, don't they? No, I think they do both ways of tailoring. Tailoring? Yeah, okay. I thought it was just hats, but I'll stand out on that. To that point on the Greens, like what you're talking about with Hapner, I didn't see the

course before the Greens were expanded, but what huge greens with big contours does, it just increases the enjoyment level in almost every way. There's a lot of holes to have some kickers to it, but like you get the par 4th, 13th, had these crazy mounds to the left. You almost didn't know until you got left of that green. You're like, oh gosh, this was a big green, and I missed it, and I'm gonna pay the price,

because there are some big contours to deal with. That, I don't know, you have so much more pinnable space for a course that you're gonna play on repeat too, like for local people. That adds so much more enjoyment than you're playing a different course every day. Mike Toreco is a member there, as well as Tom Watson spent his childhood

through his college years summering in Northern Michigan. Belvedere became his home course in the summer. And to this day, Watson pronounces Belvedere as one of his three favorite courses in the country behind Augusta and Pebble Beach. So he still makes occasional visits to the club. Gratzi. Randy, what any thoughts to add on Belvedere? Randy, what are any thoughts to add on Belvedere? Randy, what are any thoughts to add on Belvedere? Randy, what are any thoughts to add on Belvedere? Randy, what are any thoughts to add on Belvedere? Randy, what are any thoughts to add on Belvedere? Randy, what are any thoughts to add on Belvedere? Randy, what are any thoughts to add on Belvedere? Randy, what are any thoughts to add on Belvedere? Randy, what are any thoughts to add on Belvedere? Randy, what are any thoughts to add on Belvedere? Randy, what are any thoughts to add on Belvedere? Randy, what are any thoughts to add on Belvedere? Randy, what are any thoughts to add on Belvedere? Randy, what are any thoughts to add on Belvedere? Randy, what are any thoughts to add on Belvedere? Randy, what are any thoughts to add on Belvedere? Randy, what are any thoughts to add on Belvedere? Randy, what are any thoughts to add on Belvedere? Randy, what are any thoughts to add on Belvedere? Randy, what are any thoughts to add on Belvedere? Randy, what are any thoughts to add on Belvedere? Randy, what are any thoughts to add on Belvedere? Randy, what are any thoughts to add on Belvedere? Randy, what are any thoughts to add on Belvedere? Randy, what are any thoughts to like my favorite up in Northern Michigan just for the playability, you know, on an everyday basis. And I wasn't sure if that would play or if what felt that you guys would pick up and feel the same way.

And so it was it was delighting for me that as like, oh, yeah, like this is this isn't just like me. This is this is what it is. I guess it was a little firming and I'm just very glad that you guys enjoyed it. The only other thing that I'll notice, they don't sell coffee in the Marty the Pro. I was like, yeah, I haven't sold it for 90 years. I was like, cool. I'll be begging them just to brew a pot of coffee, maybe in the morning.

Great merch though. Fantastic. As a trade off. Marty's running a proper shop in there. I'll say it's, it reminded me of the best elements of the British Isles and if no offense to anyone with coins book, it would be one of the, it would be like the Great American Golf Course.

Yeah. For me, everything that I would look for in an American Golf Horse. Randy, it is time for to head to Boine. First starting at Bay Harbor and then let's get to the the hills course that we played. Bay Harbor is part of Boeing resorts. A boy is a big player up in northern Michigan, specifically as you get east and north of Charliboy where Belvedere is.

They own and operate 10 golf courses around northern Michigan. They have two at Boyne Mountain. They have four at Boyne Highlands. They have Bay Harbor. You know, you can kind of split it up into three distinct courses. They have 27 holes there. They have Crooked Stick, which is kind of between Bay Harbor and Potosky. And so, yeah, our first stop was Bay Harbor. We split up and played some of us played the links nine, some of us played the quarry nine. I think before I want to get into that, sorry, just real quick, Randy, it's crooked tree.

Just so the Indiana people aren't all over you, but continue, please. No, we'll come to the tree. No, we'll come to the tree. Yeah. Yeah, that's right. That's right. Thank you, Sally. Before we get into that, Neil, I know you got a lot of good information on like the building and restoration of Bayharp. Do I know if you could share just some

of that with the folks? Yes. The information I got from Arho's Ken was that it was the most expensive golf course ever designed in the United States, ever built and designed due to the reclamation. It wasn't just nine of the holes, the most expensive nine holes. I believe the Query nine. Query. I think the links. Or the links. The links nine, because just the, it was like a brown field.

It's a supersite. It was a cement factory in mine and they had to purpose the land, which is, I think is great. The money, specifically, I mean, you can tell a lot, a lot of dirt is moved. It's a definitely a cart course. Yeah, some of the costs had to be putting in 486 miles of interstate car pass. Yeah, but I would say,

And I'll tell you, the Corey might have been even more Arthur Hills could build him since his car pass. The King of Car Pass, Mr. Hills. But I think most of that cost was just trying to, you know, cap the, yeah. Sure. The cap that's stuff in the ground, so it doesn't seep out. So, but I mean, similar to stream song, like, I think that's a path forward for golf courses is.

Remediated land. Remediating land. Yeah. So, getting into Bay Harbor, they're, they're three nines. They have the preserve nine, which is probably the, the most placid of the nine. It just meanders through the woods, very secluded, very pretty, but the one that we did not play on this trip, the quarry nine. I think it is probably the coolest. You just have some stunning visuals with, with some rock outcroppings and they've built

some fun holes into that nine. Tron and Neil want to ask you about some of your favorites here in just a second. And then finally, the links nine, which, you know, it gets its name to links, I think, because it's the closest you get to Lake Michigan. There's some absolutely stunning views of Little Traverse Bay. It doesn't really play like a links course, so it's a bit misleading that way, but that's the nine that I played. So anyway, you have these 327 holes.

You can play 18 holes in any type of combination. It's a real logistical feat that they do being able to get people around all three nines with scheduling 18 whole rounds. And just the logistics that go into, you know, well, they're starting there and have to play this nine. They started on this nine and have to play that nine more badly speaking. I think Bay Harbor, you know, they want to position themselves. And this is some Kent Toloas. I like as the Pebble Beach of the Midwest, and I think at first blood, it's easy to kind of laugh or snicker at that. But then the more I think about it,

the more it becomes a little bit apt in ways that I think are both good and maybe not so good. So starting with the good, it's really, really scenic golf. And I think for a lot of people, a trip to Northern Michigan and getting the chance to play Bay Harbor,

some combination of the three-nines, it's probably the highlight of their golfing summer. And they're gonna get tons of really, really nice pictures. They're gonna see some really cool things that they haven't seen on golf courses before. And I think in that way, it's a little bit like Pebble Beach, where we think of Pebble Beach as, God, the views, man, it's all about the views.

Where I think it's also a little bit like Pebble Beach and Tron, I know you sit firmly on this block is like outside of that stretch of world famous holes. The course can kind of lose a little bit, especially as you get a little bit inland. And I think Bay Harbers is the same way. You know, they're absolutely stunning holes. But you can tell that the course was built first and foremost as a real estate play. And so, you know, when you get away from the lake or some of the like the starting holes,

you know, they're not the greatest, but all in all, I think it's a tremendous experience. When I take away from Bay Harbor, I thought it was an excellent condition. I thought the turf was, it wasn't as firm as what we saw in Ross Common or at Kingsley. It gets a lot more precipitation just being right by the lake, but very lush and very well maintained. I think on the links 9, you played that with me. My favorite hole is 3 is like this downhill.

It almost looks like a split fairway, but it's like one big connected fairway. As it goes downhill to this green side, it's kind of right on the lakes edge. That's a fun one. You can hit any different club off the tee, really from like driver to seven iron. I think if you wanted to. And then number four is just this kind of postcard, part three that sits in the corner of the property. There's a really nice big, not quite mansion, but big house that frames it on the back. And then just beyond, you see all down the coastline, you have great view of Little Traverse Bay, the area of Bay Harbor.

And to me, that's the spot where it most feels like I'm not in Michigan. I almost could be not quite like Mediterranean, but you feel like you could be in a different country somewhere, standing on that Tia number four. So those, those are the two highlights. And then number seven is the big part five that, that hugs the cliff overlooking the lake. I think that's another one to mention from the links nine that those three holes are probably the standouts for me. I was just gonna make a quick comparison.

You're saying not being a Northern Michigan. It honestly reminded me of like a 75% version of curry cliffs in New Zealand. I mean, it is. I mean, you are up there on those cliffs. The views are insane. It is extremely well maintained. I thought, honestly, I, the views are insane, it is extremely well maintained. I thought, I don't see how the golf holes were, they were much, like the nine holes we played

was better than I was expecting it to be. I'm not a huge Arthur Hills fan and that is some of the finest work. I think with the two Arthur Hills courses we played on this trip are the finest Arthur Hills courses I've seen. I mean, the greens were interesting. The shots were interesting. There was plenty of width. It, I was very, very, very engaged,

much more engaged playing those nine holes than I was anticipating when we teed off. I'm totally with you there. I thought the golf was a little better than, you know, the vibe, it's set up. You mentioned kind of some of the cons of, the pros and cons of, quote, the American Pebble Beach.

One thing, I don't know if you totally mentioned another very similar aspect is that it's exorbitantly expensive, which I think we probably need to mention. I think it can push up to up in the $400 range, which is, again, if you've got a full T sheet, it's much like Pebble Beach, it's very hard to argue with that strategy, but it's kind of one of those things. It's like, man, would you rather play there once or go play Belvedere six times? It's a pretty easy answer

for me, but all that being said, like you almost kind of expect a little bit of a watered-down golf experience and kind of something just catered totally towards the views. And I actually thought the links, nine was super fun. I had a blast out there. I think it's not, I would not classify this whole place as a place for golf enthusiasts. It's more vibe enthusiasts, right?

Like, it big getaway, big vacation, and like a spectacular sight to play golf, 100%. But like, if you love, you know, if there's not a, there's not much overlap between Belvedere and Bay Harbor. Like as far as this day, like they were two opposite ends of the spectrum. And I think even within Boyn, you know,

you go to other boy places to get your true golf fix. Sure. And I think Bay Harbor, you can view as like, Hey, let's go, let's go enjoy the scenery. We'll have a drink on the deck and it's almost, yeah, you just fill up the tank a little bit on views. Which there was a true moment standing off the seventh green where I just was like looking around for once, I just turned back to the group on the green.

It was just like, we are so lucky. Just like, just that setting was, it was hitting me, man. I mean, it's not, again, it speaks to, you know, and that's what to give TC a special, even more compliments than we already have on the itinerary was like the variety of different things we did on this trip and the variety of different things Michigan can offer kind of blew my mind, right?

I mean, like this being this, you know, a same day's drive away as like the Belvedere experience was just insane. And like I said, it's not like where we would normally gravitate to, but gosh, you can understand why people that have the money to spend on something like that would gravitate to a place like this. And Corey was, I think, the first two holes

are kind of, they kind of get you out to the Corey and everything, but maybe never say the Corey's right there next to the lake as well. I mean, kind of get introduced to some of what's to come on number three. It's part five. Second shot, you kind of got to make a decision, hey, am I going over this or am I laying up short? And then, you know, there's a number five, there's a pretty, I mean, four plays down to the lake. Five comes back. It's a par five, six short par four, pretty exhilarating shot downhill.

But like the lake is always within arms reach of you. But you're kind of playing through the main part of the quarry as you get into like four, five, six, and then you climb this hill to seven, and then downhill, par three to eight, which, and then nine's a cool, really, really funky little closing hole, right there by the clubhouse,

but kind of a blind tee shot, you're hitting, you're kind of uphill, and then downhill to this green that's hard up against the lake. So. Yeah, the only thing I'd add to the query is, and I don't want this to come off, maybe, I hope it doesn't sound as like a backhanded compliment, but it reminded me of like a blown up miniature golf course in that it was very fun.

And there are some very like, like, wow, I'm wondering how much this cost to make. I'm like this is crazy. You know hitting into some of these queries. So it's fun to me. It was very fun. Fun golf shots which you know you know you just suppose that with the price like okay maybe not as much fun but you know it is it's it's good for what it is. So after playing Bay Harbor, we went to Boyne Highlands, the Resort, Boyne Highlands proper, which sits technically just inside Harbor Springs, Michigan. And the course we played there is the Arthur Hills course, which I think, if you're going up, especially as a first-timer weekend trip, it's going to be everybody's favorite course at Boyne Highlands. And I think very deserved it. The biggest, the best views of any course

at Boyne Highlands, in my opinion. So just to set the stage a little bit, Boyne Highlands was developed by a guy named Everett Kirschner, who was originally from Detroit, and had a dream of bringing snow skiing up to Northern Michigan. And in the 1940s, he bought the land, which is now Boyne Mountain for $1, and slowly began building this ski resort. Boyne Mountain was successful. He then built a second resort about, it's about 30, 35 minute drive up at Boyn Highlands, a little further north, and developed another

ski resort there. He was making money in the winter, and then naturally it was like, okay, how can I make money in the summer? And so that's where golf comes in. And so the first course built at Boyn Highlands was, and is the Heather Golf Course designed by Robert Trent Jones. That's the golf course near and dear to my heart. I worked in the pro shop there. And for my money, it's the best everyday golf course. It's walkable, it's challenging. It's, it's just a very good tournament golf course. And that's where they do, you know, they've done various events. We'll be at the Heather one of the

players in the game. And the the Heather features one of the best, worst finishing holes anywhere in golf downhill par four setting up like a 200 yard shot over water to a slender green with the only bailout area being this tiny little strip of fairway that runs left of the green. That's like impossible to hit from the diagonal angle, which you would have to hit it. Just an extraordinary golf. Well, anyway, I digress. We played the Hills course. The Hills, if it was the only thing keeping me, I think, from being my favorite golf course at Boyne Highlands, aside from

like the Heather having the special place, obviously, is just it's not a walkable golf course. So that's, I think that's the thing that detracts it ultimately in my book is you got to get in a car and you got to ride. Fortunately, a lot of those drives from green to tea or through the woods and very interesting. So points there for at least making the carting a little bit fun. I think I want to, you know, it's an Arthur Hills course obviously. Arthur just likes big broad landscapes. Every Arthur Hills course I've played is just big and

brawny and open. Next time you're in Columbus, you need to get out to the virtues east of town. That's an Arthur Hills course, very, very good golf course. That used to be Longerburger? Yeah, that's exactly right. Which, to be longer burger? Yeah, exactly right. Which, and I think would be remiss if we didn't say Arthur Hills recently passed away.

You know, he's kind of one of the quintessential Michigan golf course architects. And ready, like back to your point about it being, you know, riding golf course, I think once a course is not walkable, it's like what's the difference between having a 15 second ride between a hole and a 90 second ride between holes? If it's getting you to like better land and cool features and stuff, I'm with you. It's just a big, it's an American golf experience, right? I mean, part of the American golf

is riding in a cart and I love finding those walkable places, but it does not detract from my experience to go ride in a cart on a cool piece of land like this. Well, that's what I was gonna say, especially at the hills, is like some of those drives are shocked, like beautiful, right? Like going through some of those, like the planted forests in the timber.

Yeah, it was like, it was weird, we were joking about it, but you know, usually get done saying like, man, what a great walk and that was like, man, what a cool ride that course was, it was weird, we were joking about it, but you know, usually get done saying like, man, what a great walk. And that was like, man, what a cool ride that course was. It was awesome. Nora, would you want to walk some of the slopes up to 13, 14, you know, up there? King of the carpets.

Yeah, there are a few holes that I just want to specifically call out. I think one through four kind of eases you into the round. They're very playable opportunities to score. And then from one of the aforementioned drives off four green, you get into a planted pine area. And then all of a sudden you emerge into this fifth hole. And it just is, it's a gorgeous golf hole.

It's just carved out of this. I don't know, nursery or just this area of pine trees that I think is among the most scenic that we probably played all trip. Long dog leg left par four, challenging golf hole, kind of some mounting off the fairway all along the right side to a green that's interesting. So I think that's where the Hillscores really, you know, that's the first time we're like, oh, okay, like this is a really awesome golf hole. And then from there, like number 10 is this amphitheater, a short four, to a pushed up kind of tabletop green. And depending on where they put the flag

that you really have a choice off the tee, right? If the flag's in the back, I think you can hit driver and get as close to either on the green or just off the green, it's an easier chip. And where if that pin is front of the green, there's a huge bunker protecting the front. And so I think you wanna be further back, you wanna hit like a five iron off the tee

and have a full swing wedge into that front green. But again, it's just the mounting and just the setting of the hole in the midst of this pine tree forest, it's just, it's incredible. And then of course, 13, I'd be remiss if I didn't say, uh, really, I think 12 is a very good golf. It has one of the biggest blowout bunkers, uh, protecting the left side kind of forces you to play off of that on your drive. And then

it's a really interesting, difficult green. It plays a lot more uphill. I think then a lot of people realize for the second shot. So you get off that. And then almost sudden, it's, you know, it's like you're on a roller coaster or like on a ski lift, you just snake up this cart path literally through dense forest. And you're like, where am I going? What is this, you know, what is this leading to? And the reveal then on 13T, you kind of pop out of the woods. And just in front of you is miles and miles of Northern Michigan hills of Arthur's hills and on a clear day, especially on a clear fall day. Guys, it's one of the most beautiful spots on a golf course that I've ever been to. And the whole itself is pretty cool. It's a big downhill, part five. And those

tee shots, man, they seem like they hang in the air forever. Those three holes in particular, I think, are my favorite. And then including 12, I guess those four holes are my favorite. But curious if you guys have any others or any other comments on the hills. Yeah, Randy, I'll sit like I think five spectacular. I don't think it's probably the strategy's probably a little bit backwards on it, but in 10s, 10s, the legitimately great golf hole. I think from 12 onward, it's that part three after, part three after the 14. Yeah, 14 is a fantastic little part three. I love the finishing hole. That's what I was going to say. It's really fun, risk-reward finishing hole,

drive it as close to the water as you want and leave yourself kind of this hero, second shot into the part five to finish. That was blast. It's hard to place this course, right? It's very different from everything we played. On the surface, it just doesn't seem like it would be a golf course that I would feel very strongly about, yet I do.

I really genuinely enjoy this golf course. And we've played it on previous trips too, like Randy, you played it dozens of times. Sully and I both played it. Neal's played it. Prior as well on previous trips, something I'm gonna miss again. And I recall it fondly every time

and it never lets me down each and each time I play it. Which I was nervous like having a little bit more architecture knowledge going into it. Am I gonna look at this and kind of scoff but I did not have that experience at all. Something else I like about a course like this is it has distinct sections of the course, which you could argue that can make a course feel disjointed,

but Randy said like the first three, four holes is a little bit of a warm up, and then all of a sudden it's these pine trees, just very iconic, and then it gets very hilly. And then the 18th hole is so different from, you know, the 13th hole that we talked about, like just a straightforward, par-five over water. So you just get like different from, you know, the 13th hole that we talked about, like just a straightforward, par five over water.

So you just get like different sections of the course, keeps you interested throughout the round. All right, next up, we are going to Mackinac Island and Mawashkamo, DJ. Take us there. Yeah, hard to talk about this golf course without kind of first talking about how to get to this golf course,

and Mackinac Island for those that don't know is kind of the the distant remote island between the lower peninsula and the upper peninsula of Michigan. And you have to get there by ferry. There are no motorized vehicles on the on the on the island that you know is within reason except for the car except for the golf cards on the golf course, couple of food delivery trucks, et cetera. But you have to take a ferry over to Mac and

on Island. You land, Neil said it maybe absolutely perfectly. It feels like getting off a steamship in San Francisco in like 1865, 1890, something like that, where it's just kind of hot. There's a lot of shit going on. There's smells. There's horses going down the road. There's just horses it's kinda hot, there's a lot of shit going on, there's smells, there's horses going down the road,

there's just horseshoes and fudge in the air. Yes, provisions everywhere, your general stores everywhere. It's, Randy, you kinda warned us for this and we're building to something here, I promise. But that scene right off the ferry at McInauze, I would say, Mucho, not for me. It kind of feels like the worst parts of

Epcot, center, Disney World, just a lot of hot, just densely populated people walking down the street looking for fudge, and that is just not my type of vacation. But once the island clears out, which we kind of got a good sense of in the evening, things lean out a little bit, and then all of a sudden you've got like a bunch of cool restaurants, some really awesome little hotels and B&Bs, and there's just a ton of people making day trips to the island, and a lot of the people who are there overnight as Sully

unpacks some of his remaining. I forgot to have my fudge. I'm going to eat some. So much fudge. We can take that on another podcast. Who eats all this fudge? Possibly like 20 fudge shops in like the main Randy, or the ones that are eating it.

Two Blocs, big fudge boys. It was crazy. But the point of all of this is to say that to get to a Wawashkamo golf course, which is a nine hole golf course laid out in 1898 by NFL quarterback, Alex Smith, is you have to take, what is it, about two, two and a half mile, a horse-drawn carriage ride up from kind of this main downtown

mac and awe area, all the way straight up the hill. You've got two, they almost look like small collage sales. Kind of some very proper carriage horses taking you, taking you up the hill, winding you through a much more like residential part of the island, taking you out of kind of the busy hustle and bustle of downtown out into what is truly one of the most like quiet, peaceful, awesome settings for golf that I think I've ever seen. Which I will say about the horse drunk carriage.

I thought it was like, well, this would be kind of a gimmick and something, you know, we can do for the camera, go to the course. That was the option. That is the only option. Like, there was no like, oh, yeah, you can't walk there. Like, that is how you can go. Well, the hacks felt like the electric bike scene. A lot of electric bikes.

Yeah. Yeah. But there was, I think going into this episode, it was kind of like, you know, I think we always try to kind of identify, you know, what's the question we're trying to answer here, what's the point of this one? And for me, at least it was, it was kind of like his Mac and I island on novelty or is it something very substantive? And I think the answer was like triumphantly both, right?

Like I think it has sections that are kind of a total novelty. And like I said, I'm not super big on kind of that downtown section, but I think seeing the rest, like we didn't even get to see the rest of the island, but just seeing like the bike path that goes that kind of circumnavigates the whole island, seeing some of the different hotels, seeing some of the summer houses, some of the roads that you can, you know, you just take these long bike rides and picnics and getting out away from that and seeing what the rest of the island was, including the golf course was like seemed to like

the kind of place you'd wanna spend every summer day possible. And so to get into the golf course a little bit, Alex Smith, two time US Open Champion, Alex Smith, we need to throw that out. And also his brother won the US Open. Very interesting stuff. But it was laid out in 1898. Like I said, it is nine holes with 18Ts,

which we'll get into as well. I wouldn't say kind of the most dramatic, fascinating golf course from an architecture perspective, but I think with how firm the golf course plays, and that's not only by design, but by necessity. They only irrigate, this is kind of one of the things they're famous for, but they will only irrigate the greens and the teas.

There's no irrigation of the fairways whatsoever. So they're rock, rock hard, and I think you can kind of see that to your eye. You're like, okay, that's a little, you know, it looks a little browned out in that spot or whatever. The grass still plays, like it still looks a little, you know, it looks a little browned out in that spot or whatever. The grass still plays, like it still looks a little shaggy almost. So you kind of don't really believe it

until you see your first ball bounce in the first fairway. When you see the ball take off, like when you actually, you know, you loft one up in the air and you see the ball come down and then bounce 25 feet up in the air, It is so fucking thrilling. It's awesome. And so one of the big things there, it's only about 6,000 yards.

They have a hickory option. They got a bunch of hickory sets. You can rent in the clubhouse and just from seeing how the course plays that way, I truly can't picture a better way to fill up the tank. And I think we've said that a bunch whenever we've played hickories, but it's great to launch drives a better way to fill up the tank. And I think we've said that a bunch whenever we've played Hickories, but it's great to launch drives and to have control

over your irons and to be able to actually hit proper golf shots is obviously a really fun way to play golf. But to have Hickories is, it kind of gets you out of that mode of looking at a golf hole and saying, all right, I have 160 yards, there's nothing in my way. It's a stock eight iron. And if I don't hit this shot, like all of a sudden it becomes unfun. With Hickories, I think it's totally the opposite.

It's all upside, right? You're almost, you're almost expected to not be able to pull off the shot. So when you do, it's, it's just a complete thrill. So any of the other people who played Hickories, I don't know if you guys agree to disagree. There's, well, and there's a big building advantage to playing Hickory's at World Wash Mo 2 and that you don't have to lug your own bag. That's the very, totally.

So I would say for anybody that's on the fence, it's like, it'll make your day on Mac and all much easier if you do commit to playing Hickory's at World Wash Camo. A lot of half shots, just a lot of, you're not playing golf swing. You're playing golf shot, very imaginative golf. And then we talked about the turf, but it was firm, but it felt like a trampoline.

Like the way that I just couldn't get, it was so weird out. The greens were soft underfoot, but they, the fairways too. Yeah, well, the fairways were the closest thing I've seen like, Nairn, year it was like burned out. I mean, just, you can see the low spots where any sort of moisture is collecting

and it's green down there and then it's, and they're getting shaved in certain spots by the, the mower. It was just exactly what I love about Scottish Link's golf. Couple of balls went like 20 feet in the air. I'm the first bounce. It was crazy. Tell us about the rumpels and two, what else this land is known for? a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a kinda almost trough feeling things, which hard to drive a card over. Very hard to drive a card.

So most of us walked, but for our camera ops, Cody and Nick and Ben had a bit of a tough time driving the cards over the ploughed land, but that was really cool. And then I think what, what Walshka was probably best known for would be the third hole, third slash 12th hole, you know, as you're playing it twice. And that is, of course, the circus ring.

We've all kind of posted some photos from Willashkamos. If you haven't seen it, you don't know what we're talking about. Essentially, it's really short, par four, three, 50, something like that. Less than that, it's like three, 30, and three, 15 the second time through. Yeah. 50, something like that. Less than that, it's like 3, 30 and 3, 15 the second time through, yeah. And the main defense of the hole is a strip of probably foot wide, like a high-heather grass that goes all the way around. It looks like straight up out of a circus, you know, you see the lion sitting up on top

of the box that's engulfed in flames, right? It's the whole trick of it or the whole intent of it back in the early 1900s, late 1800s was this idea of getting your ball airborne and getting it to stop was such a novelty that you would show up to this hole and whereas you'd be used to bouncing everything up and playing short of these greens and rolling it up there and making your putts, this demanded that you have to either bounce it, time your bounce correctly,

so bounce it over the Heather or truly like loft the ball up in the air and get it to stop before it would run through to the other side. And I got to admit, man, I thought that I knew I would like it. Like I thought I would, I didn't know if I'd like it from like, kitschy, you know, kind of like novelty purposes. So bad it's good. Yeah. Or if I'd like it from like, Kitchie, you know, kind of like novelty purposes. So bad it's good. Yeah. Or if I'd like it, like it, and I fucking loved it. That's cool. It was so fun.

And again, like I was talking about playing the Hickories, but back in the day, it used to go all the way around 360 degrees. Now it's like a 310 degree kind of thing. There is a little cut out in the front, and I drove it wide right into the header both times, and the circus ring absolutely dictated how I had to play the rest of the hole, because I had to, if I was gonna try to run it up,

I couldn't fly there out of the lies that I had. So if I was gonna try to run it up, I had to hit that little throat, and it just, it was a blast to navigate that. It's a hole, I truly wouldn't get sick. It sounds so stupid, because it's so outrageous, but I could play a whole all day and I would not get sick of it.

I was almost kind of bummed that I didn't hit it in the head there just because I wanted to see what that was like as well. The other holes I bring up from a historical standpoint that maybe known for big battle in the War of 182. Well, took place out there specifically on the six slash 15th hole. There's a hill next to the green. It's where the lads beat up the boys pretty good back in the day. I think that right up there with the dual hole, take that San Francisco golf club. This place

has, I'd say, even more history and more bloodshed going on, but they got some good, really good signage. Not only on that whole circus ring, there's a lot of historical signage out there. It's like a museum. Yeah. Which I'm a big, you know, at viewpoints and vistas on the highway, love to read the signage. I absolutely loved it. I was so tickled by the place. It was, you know, I went there thinking it was gonna be kind of a novelty, meeting chuckles in the head pro, who's, you know, reminiscent of like Craig Stadler.

He's just such a, just a fun, you know, happy, go lucky guy. And I loved playing that, like, it was so fun to go around it again for the second nine, but from slightly different T-boxes and play a whole new golf course all over again. I was amazed by that concept. Yeah. Yeah.

The par five's were so fun. The green on number five. Number five was number five. Number five and number four team. Has to be the smallest green in America. Oh my god. It's like a small screen in America. And then there's like one of the gnarliest false fronts you've ever seen too on a third of the green.

Just a lot of variety in the par fours. 18 goes from a par five, the first time around, or nine's a par five, the first time around 18's a par four. Just thrilling driving hole. I loved it. It was a tour de force. I can't wait to go back. I imagine it only works in situations where you don't have a very full T-sheet,

but I'm kind of amazed that I've never seen this concept of 9 Greeds 18T boxes before. Other than the dunes club, right? Yeah. Yeah, I've never been there. So it's private. Yeah. It really worked. Each hole was different. There was maybe number one was the most similar, but like it's hard to explain. I mean, there was a number seven and number 16. It's again, same green, and it plays like a 220 par three the first time around, and then a 284 par four the second time around.

And it worked so well for both shots. And 9 and 18 was like a tough little par five and then a 370 par four, same corridors, but like just different teas and different golf holes. And 2 and 11 was probably the best example for me was we were looking at the scorecard and you know we were playing a match and so we're trying to figure out handicap holes and what's going on. And we're looking at it and we're like, well how the hell is number two going to be like the number one handicap on the back? That doesn't that holds there's nothing to that hole. And then we get up, how the hell is number two gonna be like the number one handicap on the back that doesn't, that holds, there's nothing to that hole and then we get up there and the pin is,

or the, the, the, the second time around is just jammed like 50, 60 yards back, jammed up against the right property line. And all of a sudden you're feeling, you're standing there, it felt just like the, the 50 shot at Colonial. It was like, true, I can't believe I hit this fairway. Yeah, type of territory.

And, uh, just a blast, man. It was, this is gonna sound like kind of an outrageous statement probably, but just considering all the world class golf courses that we played on this trip, but I don't think anything filled up my tank like more than Will Wash come out. Because I think some of that is, we're playing like it sounds kind of dumb,

but we're playing like pretty competitive golf, right? So you're trying to make birdies, you're trying to play very solid, you're trying to play very solid, you're trying to play as good as you possibly can. So then, at least for me, I get so stuck in like, okay, right elbow is doing this, left hips here, load into this,

what's going on with this? And that's where I get into just like, when I'm not hitting shots and I'm doing that, I just don't have a good time. And especially when you're not practicing a ton going in, or you just, when you're not, when you're trying to play at your highest level, and that's the objective, and you're not playing at your highest in or you're just, when you're not, when you're trying to play at your highest level and that's the objective and you're not playing

at your highest level, you don't have a good time. Whereas at Walsh, come on, I had none of that. You also had, I think it was the point on the trip where you had low expectations on the first TD. Yeah, can we play, let's just play up. Maybe we'll just play nine. We'll go get some like shots in town.

Like he was already in, it is mind up that he didn't really want to be playing golf. And then total flip, 180, and by the end of the round he's like, God, let's go again. You know. I don't think you can give a higher compliment to that than like this was day 11 of the trip.

We're getting no sleep. We've played a million rounds of golf. All of a sudden we're out in this place that's like, what's that? You don't water the fairways like, all right, cool. I a sudden we're out in this place that's like, what's that? You don't water the fairways? Like, all right, cool. I'm sure we're gonna love this. And then to have that feeling of just like,

oh my god, let's play this 30 more times. We even talked about the blind, blind, out, part three that runs away from you. Yeah. Fucking outrageous golf course. Yeah, number four and 14. 13, yeah. It's a Randy's point of like, you know, sometimes moving around T-Boxes manually Yeah, it's so cool. Four and what? Four and 14. 13, yeah.

To Randy's point of like, you know, sometimes moving around T-Boxes manually just feels a little disconnected, right, when you're not playing from an actual teen ground. Something about it being like, no, this is the fourth hole and this is the 13th was really, really working for me. And yes, so you play the fourth hole as a blind part three. Almost like a Dell. Yeah, part three, like a wide shot. The first time.

But then the second time through, you're up elevated into the right with a clear look at it, right? It's like, well, you've seen it. You know, you now know it. Like let's, let's give you a view of the green second time. We should go, we should do that at Jack's beach for one of the NIT rounds or something like that. Like play the same nine twice and just mix it up. Yeah. Yeah, that could be interesting.

I thought it was just a total delight. It reminded me a lot of just courses that I played in junior tournaments growing up and in a lot of ways and super smooth greens. It was a total blast. I love wash, well, it was a super cool. Again, the full spectrum of golf was played on this trip.

Female superintendant too. Only one in the state of Michigan. And the course played as exactly as it should. It was awesome. Randy, what are we missing? Anything? Shelterhuts. They have so little structures.

I think probably five or six of them throughout the course. They almost look like many old school churches. And I would encourage everybody, the golf shop. Ideally, you have a lot of time, you know, I could have spent the whole afternoon in like the living room of the clubhouse. Great piano. Great piano.

Yeah, piano. It just is such a comfortable spot. I echo everything you guys say, legitimately, I think we'll wash goes one of my like 20 favorite courses anyway. Love that. Karen O'Dell is the super intended only female super intended in the state of Michigan, which is cool.

Good segue into a course. It's probably the other end of the spectrum. The last course we played, which is gray walls. We're already on the last course in the UBER, the upper part. The head golf club, gray walls course. Yeah, so two courses at Marquette Golf Club. Great walls and the other one, TC.

It's like the, they call it the Heritage Course. There's nine original Langford and Maraud. Holes there were Craig, the superintendent there, who's wonderful, we got a chance to talk to him. Mike Dvree is kind of, they've been kind of trying to, it's like a passion project for Craig, kind of expanding these greens out, dusting this thing off a little bit

and kind of showing people like, yo, you have like very rare architectural bones here, you know, and trying to get them because they're kind of interspersed between the 18 holes on that heritage course. So trying to get, you know, kind of keep dusting that off and get it back to where they want it to be. And then they've got a completely like, you know, Mike Strands LSD style.

Yeah. So great. The gray walls course. First off, designed in 2005, at the end of, it seems like the end of Mike, the reason is absolute heater in Michigan. It seems like the end of Mike Derry's absolute heater in Michigan. It's on extremely provocative land and rock outcroppings everywhere. Hence the name Greywalls. They show up a bunch on the front nine. It's up on the South Coast, just off the South Coast of Lake Superior with views of the Lake. We didn't have a ton of them. It was a little bit of an overcast day. I got some, you know, north of the wall,

Viking vibes up there, you know? That was kind of even the logo with the two flags. I was just like, you know, we got to, you know, fear the north kind of thing, keeping the wildlings out. Was also blown away that Marquette, the school was not in Marquette. I kind of thought maybe. Northern Michigan's there, the superior to them.

The world's largest wooden dome. Yeah, so. I'm amazed you guys thought a biggie school was in the openness of Michigan. I just thought you guys. That's what you guys. I was just the other one to market. I just never put the, I guess I just assumed.

I was like, oh, okay, that's where we're going. Anyway, not, doesn't matter. I would say the course was, like I said, it's very unique. And I wouldn't create, it's there to be experienced. I had some, it wasn't my favorite course that we played. It was very extreme. Extreme, yes, which I think people, like as a golf experience, it felt like an amusement park

It was laid out. It was probably the longest just to kick things off the longest Cart ride from the club else to the first T was I would I think it was over a mile and you go through the course And you're like you just like where is the first the first? He's almost the center of the maze Yeah, and then you tee off and it kind of unwraps itself. And it's very confusing, the routing's confusing. So all of that was like, wow, this is like, why did we, you know, I have a lot of questions about why it was done, the way it was done. It's the eighth wonder of the world.

Like you're almost wondering, like, at least the front nine, like, man, like, I know that it's cool that they build a golf course here, but like, should they have? Yeah, but there's some, some holes. I'll never forget The first one is number five. It's short par four over a You know blind t-shot with a lot of a lot of blind shots out there with a I would say over a hundred foot Rock like

Sheer rock wall behind the green on a dribble par four where you can't see where you're going with this like lone Massive pine tree at the top which probably made it like 200 feet high and I just found myself just staring at like truly Amazed and I felt that way on several of the holes now Part of what I loved about diamond springs. I almost wish there was more of that at gray walls, which was one or two really thoughtful features that are dictating the way the whole plays. And a lot, many times during the round, I felt like there was a lot of mounting. There was a million hums and bumps in the fairways, not so much around the greens that made a lot of balls roll to the same spot, which is not my favorite thing on a golf course.

When everybody's drive, no matter what club he hits, ends up in the same spot, kind of take some of the strategy away from me and just a lot going on where maybe it didn't need to be or a hole that comes to mind for that is number 11. It was a par four, kind of goes way down and then up. And there was, I want to say four or five bunkers, just kind of scattered within a hundred, from 150 yards to the green, making the decision off the tee, like just, you know, just hit an iron, right?

There was no... But you have a hill to climb if you're gonna hit an iron. I know, but there was nowhere to hit. It was just like, but... On the tee, it was kind of random. It's like, yo, why would I, there's no reason to hit. I'm just take the blind shot from the fairway. So some of that is like, take up, maybe take a couple,

I don't know why all those bunkers were there is what I'm getting at. So some of that is like, maybe a little too much in spots. And then, you know, similar to the loop when what Tron said, the, you know, playing that course for the first time, being so remote, the, you know, playing that course for the first time, being so remote, the Yarditz book wouldn't, wouldn't help me out much on, on, where to go, right? And it's a course that played long, and I think I hit two or three drivers all day. So there wasn't a whole

lot of reason. Not, not saying I wanted to overpower the course, but sometimes I want a reason, like I was saying at 15 at Diamond Springs, I want a reason to hit the hero shot, to go for it, to try to hit the hard shot now instead of later. And he had to be very, very patient out there with that course. It struck me a lot as much less, especially looking at Kingsley or Pilgrims around the it, you know, or even the minds like much less strategic and much more just like, you know, I've bet you've never seen something like this before. Which, again, much like the loop is like, was it my favorite course that we played?

Like, no, but do I respect that idea of just like, yes, yo, here, you know, I bet you didn't think we could do this, but here it is. So I felt like, it felt like a double black diamond with, you know, it's got, it's either just crazy steep or you got just really, really technical moguls. This felt like you're off-peaced, you are doing, you are just like, you're dropping in off of,

you know, backcountry. The ski patrol warning signs at the gate are waiting for you. We're not responsible for anything that happens on this side of the mountain. And like, you know, number one, can we just talk about that green? Do you wanna talk about like, we kept saying this with, can we just talk about that green?

Do you want to talk about like, we kept saying this with all the other degrees courses we've mentioned. Like, man, what a first impression. I think I said this to camera. It was like, after I made fucking 15 on that whole, I'm like, all right, if that, if he's trying to like, lure us in with the first impression. Like, my first impression of this place is like,

oh my god, I'm terrified to see what the other 17 holes are like, this might be a long day for me. And that long broad slope that fronts the green, you've got that on either side of the green. And so it's that same theme you've seen from some of the other degrees courses. But you could legitimately ping pong it back and forth on that green like five, six, seven times in a row

and just not, you know, just keep hitting it back and forth. And I did wonder to what our opinions, I mean, I don't think anybody disliked it. I think any criticisms were probably stemming more from the fact that it was our 17th course that we'd seen on this trip or whatever. I wonder what it would have been like if we would have got off the plane and played that first. I think it would have been an absolute sensory overload in a good way, just like, oh my God,

I can't wait to see what's around this corner or what's going on. I think by the time that all of our bodies are a little broken down and we're not quite as in control of our golf games, it felt like it was a lot. Tough course to play with low energy. Yeah, it was. And I think the conclusion I came to this was just like,

it came highly recommended, came highly louded, and I had pretty big expectations for it. And it just wasn't a great match for me. That's not the, I don't feel passionately about that. Like I kind of did with the loop on the specific features about the loop that I think were just not appropriate for any skill level. It just, it, like, to Neil's point, like, I, you kind of,

I tried a lot of pretty difficult shots on that day, and I got up there and I was kind of like, yeah, you know what? Like, there was no reason to even try it. And I like the balance of like, you can try it, but here's the price you're gonna pay. And after seeing a lot of them, it was kind of like, no, you don't even need to try it. And that kind of golf on repeat, I love,

like having to strategically place your way around a course with irons, if it's a kind of a narrow course, or you're navigating a couple pop bunkers here and there. But on something like that wild, I love to explore the golf course and you know, feel like I'm free to hit shots and I just didn't get that feeling especially after seeing and looking back at the holes like, dude, shit, I don't even really know what, because like if I hit three, what it's going to end up there, if I hit driver, it's gonna end up there, if I hit four, and it's gonna end up riding that same spot. And it just, it, it, not much land was moved,

if at all, in building this, and you could kind of tell in some spots. Yeah, that's what I was gonna say, is I think a lot of that's just dictated by how severe the land is, right? Like it's hard. Right, it's hard enough to have one way to play the whole, let alone trying to create two ways to play the holes,

is gonna be just almost impossible. It fell, it fell a little bit like Todd Hill farm. Yes, totally. You know, very extreme and you know, they did the best they could on certain parts of the property. And it's thrilling like to hit a lot of those shots. It's crazy to sit out. What was it?

Part of the part three six. Six, yeah. It's like you're standing on that T-box. You're like, and that's not like there's a bunch of strategy to that hole. It's just like, yeah, either you hit the shot or you don't, but like, take some pictures. This is pretty fun. I have a 5-6-7. Yeah.

I can't wait to go back. And like, I want to play with the fresh set of eyes and with a second time around knowing what I know. I think some of it on the part three is just kind of how disjointed the routing has to be to fit these holes in. I thought it was one of the best sets of part three's I've ever played. Number three was awesome. Three was unbelievable. Six was unbelievable. Seventeen was a great hole. Like it's very, very like thrilling part three shots.

What's the other teams were great? 15. The other ones just teams cool. It's cool on those long part three's. They were yeah, long broad slopes, cool ways to feed the ball in. It was really cool. I would, we've said this a couple times on this pod alone, but there were a lot of course we played that were great match play courses. Randy and I were discussing this felt like the other way

around, where you're trying to, if you're, we're all playing matches out there, and it's like you're trying to, like, if you're, you know, we're all playing matches out there and it's like you're trying to play your opponent, but we were just, you feel uncomfortable on the T's, right? And it's like, you know, it's stuff to play the course and your opponent, you're kind of, yeah. You don't know which one to stand off a little bit

out there. And it's kind of the opposite of what I didn't like about the loop was T-Degrean. It just wasn't really working for me. What you got on the greens and the approach shots were really interesting and the slopes and how they kind of had some friendly kickers and some punishing kicks as well.

But that was all really working for me. It was just kind of like, this shit. There's a lot of knobs out there and a lot of visual stuff going off of T. I think like standout holds, I thought 10, that short part four, kind of up the hill, that was a really, really handsome, cool looking hole. I love the back nine.

Another back, like the front nine gets all the accolades as far as the, well the front nine's a lot more dramatic, right? You have a lot of the rock faces and that stuff, and the back feels much more traditional. I thought the back was where the juice was. I didn't really care for 11, but like really after that, I thought 12 was cool.

I thought 13 was like one of the better par-fives we played on the trip, awesome green, like some kind of a Maxwell style mound there. It looked like you were hitting off into just outer space, you know, long, long of that green. And then you get up there and realize, oh, there's another 20 feet back here. 14 was just a no bonkers or anything.

It plays up, there's just a little canyon there. I thought 18 was really, really interesting. It's like you're playing into this like funnel or colander and you're, it's, it's wild. And then it just, it spits you out through this little spout, to this little neck. And then you play up and the green looks super benign from 200 yards out.

And it's actually sloped right to left. And there's a big mound right in the middle of it that we had a left pen. And that was a really, really tough pen. And if you were on the right side of that, that was gonna to be an impossible pin to get to from, you know, short ride at that dream. Every ball is off the tee, like from six iron to driver is ending up in the same spots, like a governor on the engine. I talked to Mark, the, the, the director of golf about it afterwards and I was asking him because they had had their club championship

and he was saying, no, like actually a lot of guys had driver there and get it down past the neck. And you've got, you can get it down past there. I think there's something to be said for. You know, really? I mean, that's just not to see pops. The five-year-old-wide neck, yeah. I think there's something to be said for, I agree. Like, it does seem like six-iron driver

is gonna end up in the same spot, which from a hashtag shot value perspective, probably not great, but from a, is it fun to give everybody a chance to go for a part five and two at the end of the day? That's where I'm at on like, it's just not a great match for me, right? I'm not saying that's wrong, I'm not saying it's a shock.

It's a second shock, of course, sir. Yeah, I'm not saying it's a flaw in any way, it just didn't strike me. But I thought overall too. I thought it kind of completed the loop on. We saw Diveries do some really, really gentle subtle stuff at Pilgrim's Run and Diamond Springs. And we saw the same themes in play

but at different application of them here. So I thought Kingsley was the perfect distillation of all those things in one place. Well said. Randy, any thoughts on Greybones? No, I think you guys pretty well captured it. I think I fell prey a little bit to the expectations of it. And I'll say it certainly didn't disappoint in my expectations of the wildness and the

scale. I think where it came up short for me personally was just being more difficult, I guess, not as pleasing round of golf as I was hoping. And I think as our last Mike D'Vries course, you know, I just wonder had we, like you said, had we played it first or played it before Kingsley, you know, I think it would have slotted in a whole lot better. To me, like the whole timing of it felt so much like NSG grown. And we ended Ireland and just the type of course and some of the harshness and blind aspects of it. It's what I really want to get back to. I want to spend, I think I could spend two days in Marquette. I don't know if I'd be dying to spend more than a couple of days there, but, you know, certainly

would love to get back and also play the heritage nine, which has a original, has nine lengths and maraud holes as well. I think would be a lot of fun. I'm dying to get back there, especially to play those, but also just like, I think I would like, you know, some of the same criticisms I had of the Greens at Forest Doons, I probably had some of the tee shots, you know, it feels like there's some of that there, but for me, Greywall is completely redeemed itself

with having some spectacular Greens and, you know, just knowing what I'm supposed to do and there's different ways to do it, there's different ways to accomplish it, but the objective is clear. From a thanks perspective, Kevin Frisch, thank you so much, Coach Dowling from Michigan, Women's Golf Coach, she was wonderful in helping us get that set up. Everybody, Kingsley. debris Mike. Yeah, I mean just like there's just too many people to thank here It's the Andy. Yeah, Andy was an invaluable resource like he's the reason we want to grant rapids in the first place Remember calling them up and saying hey man like you think this would be a fit

You know, I love like I'm so keen to see these places. He's like yeah, it'd be the perfect thing And for him to drive over from Chicago and and you know spend spend a day and a half with us was awesome So just a fantastic, fantastic trip. Can't wait for you guys to see the videos. Thank you for tuning in somehow to almost four hours of people talking about their golf trip, which would not have imagined that this would be content people would want to hear, but it turns out it is. So can we just do real quick, favorite hole?

You got to just shout it out. Go into your head, favorite hole of the trip. 13 at Pilgrims Run. I'm gonna say the circus ring, it will wash. 14 at Kingsley. 14 at Kingsley. 16 at Belvedere. Oh, sweet.

Hell yeah. That's a good mix. That's a good mix. One of the special shout out to both 15 and 16 at Diamond Springs. All right, you can't do the TC thing here because we're gonna be here all night. So thanks everyone for tuning in.

We'll see you next time. Cheers. That is better than most. Better than most.