No Laying Up - Golf Podcast - NLU Podcast, Episode 506: Rory McIlroy

Episode Date: December 17, 2021

Rory makes his long awaited return to the podcast as we break down the state of his game, his performance in majors, his mentality on and off the course as well as the all the changes in his life and career over the last few years. We also get into this year's Ryder Cup, changing swing coaches, PGA Tour pros playing in the Saudi Arabia event, his plans moving forward and a ton more.  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

I'm going to be the right club today. Yes! That is better than most. How about him? That is better than most. Better than most. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to the No Laying Up podcast, solid here. We have a very special episode for you today. Four years in the making, if you will, Roy McElroy is back on the No Laying Up podcast. We cover basically everything we possibly could from the last several years, the state of his game mindset,

his how he manages his time, other golf leagues, tours, just it's got it all. I'm not going to waste any more of your time teasing it. I am going to tell you, of course, that no-ling up is brought to you by our friends at Precision Pro Golf. They are proud to announce the next big thing in golf technology. It's the long-awaited Ace Smart Speaker. It's a groundbreaking portable Bluetooth speaker that reads distances to you over top, whatever tunes you might be listening to while playing on the golf course. We use this up in Michigan. If you haven't seen it, we just published the final episode of Taurus Sauce Season 7. We were using this out on the golf

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using Afterpay. So add sound to your round by going to PrecisionProGolf.com or Amazon.com. It's a perfect gift for yourself or the golf or your know. You'll never second guess your distance, you'll never second guess adding the audio, caddy experience to your golf bag. Swing with confidence, hit more greens with PrecisionProGolf. The only further delay, Rory Cummins. All right, as we're sitting here, December 16, 2021, how would you describe your relationship with the game of golf right now? I'm not warming you up. Wow. I think I have a wonderful relationship with the game of golf. I think as anyone

knows that knows that's played this game at any sort of level, whether it be the level I play out or the level that you play out or lower than that. There is a part of a love-hit relationship that goes on. There's days and weeks and months that you love this game and then there's weeks and maybe goes into months where you sort of hit it too and you need to work your way through it. But just purely the game of golf and the journey of trying to get better at it and trying to become a better player and a more

well-run to player. I think you're always on that journey. There's never an end point, but I love that. That's what I... You look at like Steph Curry and what he did a couple nights ago and breaking the three-point., like he loves the game of basketball. And golf. And golf very much so. But if we could all have just a little more of that playfulness and joy in the game of golf that, you know, I, I've said before that sometimes I felt like golf has become a job and I try so hard to make it not feel like that.

And I've had to work out it's, you know, there's going to be like 15 years on tour for me. It sometimes gets to, you know, to be aggrined. But the more you can make it fun and you just remember why you picked up a golf club in the first place, I think that's really important. So you've learned, you said you've learned a lot there in golf being a job. What, what does that mean? What have you learned? What have you maybe changed on that front? Or trying to, I'm trying to bridge a gap here in seeming like at times, maybe seem like you're burned out at times. This past year has kind of almost burned out

everyone in some way. What does it mean to you when you say you've learned how to make this a job or treat this as a job? Well, no, I've learned how to try to not treat it like a job. I think that's what it is. I think in that separating I feel as my career has went on I've started to wear a lot of different hats within the game of golf It was it was just a golfer and then you know, it's an ambassador for brands and companies and then You go into like the administration side,

pack chairman, and to be on the PJ tour board to being investor in certain golf products and being involved in trying to grow companies within golf. And sometimes I need to just really separate everything and be like, okay, that, all that other stuff will go well if I do what I'm supposed to do on the golf course. So performance on the golf course and hitting fairways and hitting greens and making pots and shooting good scores is the most important thing in the world and all of the other stuff

sort of just falls in place after that. Is it, have you learned things over the years when it comes to time commitments? I feel like you were very good at making yourself available. Have you ever, have you overextended yourself in the past? Is that something that's evolved? Yeah, I think so. I think so when I won my first major at the US Open in 2011, I felt like that's when my

career changed. I was still a, you know, I went into that US who have been probably top 20 in the world. So it's a decent player. I'd won the PJ Tour. But once you win that major, you're just pulled here there and everywhere. And you have to learn how to say no.

And it's not in my nature to say no. I try to be a giving person. And I try to give people time. And I try to treat them with respect. And you have to say no no and not burn yourself out. And time management and in my career has been a really, really important thing. And again, I feel like it's easier to get to the destination than it is to stay there. And that's always been, because then once you get there,

your time is then limited. And you've got all these other responsibilities and everything else going on. But you have to remember, OK, I still need to spend the time to be the best player that I can be. And then everything else is secondary. And again, as I said, you do what you're supposed to do on the golf course, everything else just sort of falls

into place after that. Easier to get there than it is to stay there. That seems like something to unpack there. What is that something specifically on the golf course as well? Does it, you know, after you've won, say, three, four majors, is it harder to process a T6 after that? Whereas on the way up, you just said, hey, I played good this week, five guys beat me.

It is, yeah, I think you get to stage in your career where no one's gonna remember a T6 at a US Open or a, you still have to take the little victories from it and you have to realize, okay, I did that well this week or I did that well and that's something I can take into the next week, the next major, the next whatever. But you walk away from a T6 or you walk away from a close call and people aren't really gonna remember that and I think at this point in my career I'm trying to sort of cement my legacy more than anything else. And I'm not saying seconds and thirds and top fives aren't good.

Of course they're good and it means you're on the right path. And but yeah, you walk away and you're always nitpicking at things. And I think that's just the nature of our game. You're nitpicking and I think I could have done that better. I shouldn't have made Boogie there. I should have been more efficient with the birdie tries I had. So yeah, they're good finishes, but people don't remember good finishes.

Right, and I feel like if I can, see normally I have Kyle Porter here to help cycle analyze you, but we can just do it with you here in the room. But I feel like you have gone through ups and downs in terms of what to tell yourself about specific results. I think if I were to guess,

I think you want to win so incredibly badly. Yet, at the same time, you have a wonderful life, and it's almost like why ruin, why bring myself down, why beat myself up over this result that I am not happy with if I have all these wonderful things for me. And you're trying to reconcile those two things, I think, I'm not been in your shoes, but I feel like it's a difficult thing in your shoes. Am I onto something there? Yeah, for sure. I mean, I think I spoke about this at the open this year.

I've not the open, and then maybe after the win in Vegas as well, where I said, you know, when I try to soften the blow of maybe not playing my basketball for not getting a win, it's like, oh, well, you know, I'm already winning. I've got this great life and I've got this wonderful family and I've made all this money and all this sort of stuff. So it's like, it's almost, I think Jordan might have talked to you guys about this a couple of years ago about using all that as

like a crutch. And it's very true. I started to use all that as a crutch and I had to realize, well, no, that's all great. And that's my life and that started to use all that as a crutch and I had to realize, well, no, that's all great and that's my life and that's wonderful, but you can't separate these two things and I want to be the best player that I can be and I felt sometimes that mentality of brushing it off or being a little too soft on myself Didn't allow me to be the best player that I could be or at least give myself the best opportunity to be the best player that I could be, or at least give myself the best opportunity to be the best player I could be. I'm smiling so much right now,

because after you said that at the open, I pulled up that speed quote, and I was like, man, look at these two quotes right next to each other. This doesn't quite seem right, but I'm glad to hear you say that, that seems. So you win four major championships up through 2014. You have four as we sit here now.

Yet I think if we roll out in 2010, if you were sitting here, we fast forward 11 years and say you're gonna have four major championships That would make a lot of sense that'd be that would feel amazing Does it ever feel like you shot 27 on the front and shot 33 on the back to shoot 60? I mean is it is is it harder to reconcile you know winning so many early with you know going Seven six years whatever it is to reconcile winning so many early with going seven, six years, whatever it is now without winning any? It is.

I think there has been opportunities for me there to win major championships. The Masters in 2018, I didn't put any pressure on Patrick that final day, finished second at Carnus D, had a great chance to birdie a team to put some pressure on Francesco, tied for the lead with nine holes to go to the US open this year at Tory Pines. Like I've had chances. I just haven't capitalized on them. But then again, thinking about it, I'm still, I'm 32 years old, you know, Phil Mikkelsen had zero majors at this point and he went on to win six of them post 33 or 34. So I still feel like I have a really long runway ahead of me. It's not, I certainly don't think my

major winning days are over. And I've since 2014, I've basically won everything there is to win in the game, apart from a major championship, WGC, the players, two FedEx cups, rest to the buys. I mean, I've done most other things in the game, apart from winning one of those big fours. So I keep playing the way I'm playing, keeping in this mindset that I think I've finally got right. It's not far away. Well, and that's in the math, too.

You say it like you won, you won four. And I would say you had five good chances up through winning that fourth. I'd say Western Straits was obviously a very close call in 2010 PGA. But you had it, you ran away with a couple and you had a couple that you just closed out. But the math would say like, all right, you're going to have a couple here where you're just a couple shots off the pace. Brooks is kind of the same way. He got four quickly, and then now he's had some close calls, close calls, close calls, and I was just curious as to how you were personally reconciling that. It seems like you're in a good place with

that. Yeah, I'm in a good place. I mean, I'm still, you know, I'm very proud of the fact that I've won four major championships, but, you know but it's not the end of the road for me. I'm still young. Yes, I'm going into my 15th full year on tour and I've been out here a long time, but I started young. I get off to a great start. I feel like I've kept that sort of pretty good start going. I'm pretty much on a 10% win rate throughout my career. So if I just keep going with that, then, you know, keep giving myself chances.

You're not going enough doors, you know, summon them a loop in for you. And that's sort of my attitude going forward. So let's talk about this past year. You had some comments earlier in the year. You said, you know, I'd be lying if I said, you know, what happened with Bryce and at Wingfoot didn't kind of influence some things. One, how did that kind of influence some things? You had some coaching changes and changes back, or I don't know how well reported all

that was. Kind of walk us through your golf evolution in this past year. Yeah. So I started like the year. You rewind back to maybe October 2020. Bryson is just one of the US as open and he did it in a way around wing foot that I just thought wasn't possible. Yes, wing foot has openings at the front of the greens. You can hit it way up there and the rough

run it up onto the green and so you know other courses he wouldn't be able to do that wing foot he did but huge greens there too. Yeah, so unlike I'm I've always been a pretty good driver of the golf ball, but I was like, you know, maybe a little bit more speed could be good for me. And I think as well, you see one of your contemporaries do something like that, and you think, for me, it's almost like I wanted to prove myself that I could do it too. And that's probably just my ego sort of getting in the way a little bit. But I did it, and I got some some good speed and I got some good numbers. But at the detriment to the mechanics of my swing, I try to get the club one of the easiest

ways to get more club head speed is to take the club back faster. And I started to try to do that, but once I started taking it back faster, it started to get more and more inside. And once the club gets behind me early, I'm done. I don't know what to do from there. I've historically thrown my career, I've taken the club out in front of me or outside. And then from there, I know what to do. The club just sort of drops and that's just a natural pattern for me.

But once the club gets behind me early, the club has to travel such a long way to get back out in front of me. And it's like, I just can't time it up. I can't sync it up. So I went into the 2021 season with that pattern of taking it in, getting it up and then throwing it out in front of me which is like an over the top move that I've never done. So goes two ways. I go all over the place. And I started out in Abu Dhabi managing it and had a chance to win there at an appropriate't play a great final run, finished third. And then just progressively over the course

of the next couple of months, not working on it and not really focusing on it, it just got into this pattern that seemed really, really hard to get out of. So I sort of pieced it together a little bit. Mysticut in LA. Harry and I talk about this all the time. Probably my best performance this year was the T6 at the work day at the concession. I could not find a club face. Oh, it was so bad. And I just, I

just got it around and pieced it together and like, it's fine, Harry and I always joke about concessions. And if you can finish T-Sex with no game. At that golf course. At that golf course, then, what can you do if you actually get this right? So I think I finished T-10 at Bay Hill, and then I went to the players. And the players is where it started to just,

you talk about two-way misses. I missed the 10th fairway at Sawgrass on that first morning, 40 yards left. I mean, this ball just came out and went where did that come from? Michael wasn't with me at that point. Pete Cowan was there on site. And Michael had traveled, like Michael said, difficult to do.

I mean, sort of. I mean, he still came over during COVID and whatever, but yeah, it was a little more difficult during COVID to get over and back and everything and just the restrictions that were placed on people that were traveling in terms of testing and quarantines and all that sort of stuff So it was just it was a little more difficult than it then it usually is like it has been for everyone But as well like at the start of the year you want to get into tournaments and play and and Michael and I've always worked great away from the golf course and away from golf tournaments. And then I go there on my own and know what I'm doing.

I feel like I've done the work. So my head's clear just to go and play golf. But obviously at that point during the players this year it wasn't. I was, my head was sort of fried. And I played a really bad round on that Thursday. So I, you know, on Thursday afternoon I just said to Pete, I've known Pete since I was 13 years old. He was a consultant for the Irish national team. So I've known Pete for a long, long time, not quite as long as I've known Michael, but he's always been a trusted, if I want his

opinion on something, he's always been someone that I've trusted to give me a good opinion on things. I'm advisor. An advisor, Michael's talked to him a lot as well. So it's not as if this was a new thing. And it wasn't. So we started doing a couple little things at the players. And it was technique. There was some things I needed to really work on. And so after the players, I committed to, you know, OK, let's see where this goes with Peyton

and commit to a few months working with him and see if I can get a little bit better. And Michael was totally okay with that. He was like, I'm always going to be here for you if it doesn't work out, and I'm more than happy to come back. And so it was very, very, everything was on good terms. So I worked with Pete, and I got a lot. I learned a lot.

I thought my arm play got a lot better. My wedge game got better. He just wanted to try to, I was getting very flippy at impact. So just trying to stabilize the club face through impact and just get the consistency of the ball flight a bit better. And then I go to Quill Hollow when I win, but I didn't necessarily win Quill Hollow with my ball striking. I potted really, really well that week.

And you could say the same thing about the CJ Cup but in Vegas, I potted really well that week and those two wins were to do with my potted more than my ball striking. But I thought I was at least making a little bit of progress. And then going into the US open, I felt like it felt like I had a sweet spot with Peyton terms. Okay, everything feels good, hitting the shots I want to hit.

And then the result followed. I think as everyone in golf knows, you can feel really good on the range and hit the shots. And then once you get on the course, it's a different animal. Sometimes it just takes a while to trust what you're trying to do. So that was the sort of journey and then it got to the point where in the summer I felt like every time I played a bad drawing or had a bad shot, it was just all technique. So then I just got wrapped up in my head about technique and just started to think about my swing and then...

You're playing golf swing, not golf? 100% sort of freed myself up a little bit more. So, like, I was open, I was open, I was open, I was open, I was very, you know, it was more golf swing. And I didn't, you know, I didn't allow myself to play with the freedom that you need to play with, to win golf tournaments.

And I went to the Olympics and tried to play with a bit more freedom and played a bit better there, played a bit better in Memphis. But then, you know, you still need to, there's something to do with playing with freedom and seeing shots and all that, but you still need to have somewhat of a technique to match up, to be able to make sure that everything's coming out consistently.

So I go into the Fettish Cup playoffs, play OK, finish fourth at KIDS Valley, I didn't play great at Liberty, played OK at the Tour Championship, and then Ryder Cup was just a, I think, I got into this mindset of like when I got under pressure and got under the gun, especially at somewhere that's as pressure practice Ryder Cup, I just reverted back to technique because it's all I was thinking about for the last few months and like I played horrifically the first two days, I mean so bad. And it was even to the fact where Harry said this to me,

he's like, you're not even getting into your chip shots and your pots, because you're still thinking about the swing you made to get yourself here. You're not even just like, for getting about it, hitting a good chip, hitting a good pot, you're still thinking about the swing you just made. And it just, it got to the point where I needed to completely free myself of all technical thought.

And I sort of did that on the Saturday night. I said, right, I'm just going to go out and play the team. And Patrick put a lot of fear to me to go out number one. I hadn't won a match going out number one the last two times. So I went down, I beat Zander, and I played the best golf of the week. And I just, for me anyway. And I just, that was a huge realization.

And I think the emotion that I showed at the end was, was to do with the writer Cuppen to do with how emotionally charged that week is, being with your teammates and playing all for one thing and it's such an authentic event. But I think the tears were also me realizing, like, you know, not what have I been doing for the last six months because I still feel like I made some progress. But, you know, why did I just, I need to just get out of my own way

and that was the realization and then you know go to Vegas and like I didn't know I was going to win in Vegas I just wanted to go there and free myself up and there you go my win. A quick break here to check in with our friends at Elijah Craig the holiday season is in full swing if you're looking for something great to bring home for the holidays, look no further than Elijah Craig after Max Holmas stellar 2021 season. We are hoping he's giving a couple of bottles to his caddy Joe. It's probably what'll have to give everyone this year as he is Elijah Craig's new brand ambassador. Also, if he's doing that, he's probably just regifting it. Just just to warn you, he probably didn't pay for those.

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No-langups brought to you by Elijah Craig, Kentucky Strait, Bourbon Whiskey, Bardstown, Kentucky, 47% alcohol by volume. Elijah Craig reminds you to think wisely and drink wisely. Let's get back to Roy McRoy. I go back so frequently to Burkdale, what I forget what point of the round it was that JP said to you. Do you remember what he said to you? It was the, I think it was four over three, four. Um, first drawing to Burkdale. Um, there's a lot of learning and not mourning in that week as well. Not because of that, but yeah he said to me on the

fifth year Berkdale, he said, what are you doing? You're really fucking McLeary. I was like, well that sort of makes sense and I came back, I shot 71 that day and then I ended up finishing fourth that week and if I didn't lose the ball on 16 on Sunday, I would have had a decent chance. That's where I think you just walked through the whole process of a technical flaw. And you said something interesting there, too, of like I know.

Your body, as well as anyone in the world, knows what to do, has made thousands of thousands, and not millions of swings, and knows what to do from certain positions. But if you wanna change something, now you have to unlearn some things and relearn them on the range, in practice, on repeat, then take it in competition, and then trust it under the gun,

when it feels a little different on Saturday than it did on Friday. And like, it's super easy to try to tell yourself, like, oh, just go be a rory, go play, but it's just, that, getting, you can't just like skip steps in the process either and just go right to the finish and cheat. No, of course not. But there has to be that point where you say to yourself, all the works being done,

you've done all the hard stuff on the range at home, you know, the best mindset going to tournaments is you go and you play. And if there's things that aren't going great during that week, you go with what you have. I mean, that's what, you know, what did Jack say? He said, you got a dance with the girl you brought. So, and there was times during the year where I certainly was looking for other girls that dance with. It's just compete. Go compete. Go compete. Go grind your ass off. Yeah. Turn a 74 into a 70 and that's golf. That's that is golf and that is playing golf and and I figured out I need to just start playing golf. More and and Bob

Ratell has been a big help in that too. I had a great chat, I had like a five-hour conversation with them about all this stuff in April of this year and he has been a big help as well. Just reminding me of certain things and he says some, you know, like when I was talking about technique and I'm thinking so much and he said, have you ever been to Disney? I said, yeah, I've been to Disney. He goes, when you were there, did you ever get one of these caricature artists to draw a picture of your face? I said, yeah, I remember that.

I remember that. And he said, so whenever they're drawing your face, are they looking at your face? Are they looking at their hand? And I said, well, they're looking at my face. He goes, exactly, they're not looking at their hand, telling their hand what to do to try to draw your face, right? They're just looking at their hand. And I said, well, they're looking at my face. He goes, exactly, they're not looking at their hand, telling their hand what to do to try to draw your face, right? They're just looking at their target and letting their hand do what it needs to do. And he goes, that's the exact same thing as golf. And then we go back to what I said about Steph Curry

at the start. Like, he, you know, he thinks about absolutely nothing. But you need the technique. You need to drill a technique. You need to drill a lot on the range, out home, whatever. But when you go and play, the less thought the better. The hardest thing is knowing that good golf comes from the right side of your brain and shutting off the left side. Like you're left side trying to tell your body what to do. Flow state comes from right side.

But left side is still important in the game because that's where you have to course management on logical decisions and laying up instead of going for all this sort of stuff, right? There's so much. I mean, it's an endlessly frustrating game, but when you get it right, those seldom times that you do, it's so rewarding. Patrick Harrington has said, I think it was at the PGA or a phrase we've repeated a lot, which is just something along the lines.

As you get older and get longer into professional golf, you lose your innocence. You're nodding as I say that. Have you experienced that and what does that mean? Oh, yeah. I mean, it's, yeah, you get, I think in life in general, you get more careful as you get older. So you lose your innocence, those experience. I mean, we're human beings.

We're designed to survive. So if we have something bad that happens to us, we're going to put that under my mind, say, well, I'm not going to let that happen again. For survival, just our survival instinct, it's just who we are. So whenever you're on the golf course and something bad happens, and that's when, it's like, oh, well, I missed the last screen on the right.

I'm not going to do that. So then you double cross it. It's like, so yes, you do lose your innocence. So again, you have to work so hard on your mindset to not let that creep in. You had talked about it at some point. I don't have the date on this when you went over to Tiger's house and you saw trophies. There wasn't. All the trophies weren't out.

There wasn't a room that had all the trophies in there. And there was something along the lines of, you know, you onlyies weren't out. There wasn't a room that had all the trophies in there and there was something along the lines of, you only had the majors out and you almost had a reflection point of that of like, that's what matters. I'm paraphrasing a little bit, but I'm asking you to explain it, but I'm also trying to marry that with you taking on

leadership roles within the PGA tour and being heavily involved with the PGA tour. And I don't know what my question is really. Yeah, yeah, no, I so, so this was back in March. It was actually the Sunday of the Honda Classic, because I remember sitting beside him. He was in his sort of hospital bed there

and sort of, you know, leg up and healing and really early in the process. And in his family room, he's got four shelves or whatever, and they're just the major trophies. And it just really hit me because, you know, I would say the Gulf media has given tiger a hard time in terms of what he gives them, in terms of like letting them in,

and he's a very private person, and he wants to keep it that way, and that's him, and that's good for him. But I just looked at those, and I said, that is just probably one of the most authentic things I have ever seen because all he has ever said his entire life is all I care about your major championships. And you go to his house, his inner world, like his private home, and that's what you see. It's like no, that he wasn't bullshitting everyone, that is exactly what. So it just to me was such an authentic realization of like, no, this is, that's what matters to him. And I'm not saying that's what should only matter to me, or only matter to the rest of the

golfing world. But to me, it was just a realization of, no, he was telling the truth all those years on this as well matters to him. It was just it was a pretty cool realization. So that didn't necessarily change anything for you? Well, I mean, I think as you get older and you get to a point in your career, it's like, you know, what I rather have, what's Billy Cosper's, how like 50 PGA Tour of Winds and 3 Meagers, something like that. Or what I rather have 30 PGA Tour of Winds, three majors, something like that. Or would I rather have 30 PGA Tour of Winds, but 10 of those be majors.

I say, well, I'd rather have the 30 and the 10. So yeah, there is a point where it's like, no, this is these are water important, but you can't, again, you can't put yourself under too much pressure to perform in them because then, as we were just talking about with mindset and about freedom, and you don't play free and it becomes too important to you

and you become careful. And that's again, going back to Tiger. And I've seen it, Tiger won major championships not hitting driver anywhere. And that's the left side of his brain, basically going, no, that's not what you do. You hit an iron under the fairway and an iron onto the green and you just keep doing that over and over again.

So, if anyone shouldn't play careful in the game, it's him. He has nothing to lose. He's proven he is who he is over and over again. But even he gets on golf courses, and I'm sure at the top of the swing says, oh don't miss it there or don't miss it, you know, it's just it's human nature. And that's the best player in the game who doesn't have it.

He, like I've always said, if I was Tiger Woods, I'd hit driver everywhere. I either should 62 or 82, I'm not care. So marrying up here a couple, you know, topics in the game of golf these days with your role with PJ Tor. You had, you were asked about it. I'm sure you will continue to be asked about it and said that, you know, the PJ Tor should release players to play in the Saudi international. From what seat are you saying that from?

So when I was asked to be a part of the, the PAC, the player advisory console, I said, yeah, I'd like to learn a little bit more about the tour business and sort of know the goings on. And being on the pack doesn't mean that you don't have a say, right? You don't have a vote. But it's a, you know, the pack basically, the board takes the temperature of the pack

and see what a cross section of the membership are thinking and talking about. And then from that temperature that they take, they go and make some decisions and then vote on it and it's a yes or no. And then I get promoted to PAC chairman and I'm voted into that position, my term members. And then once you serve a year as a PAC chairman, you go on to the PGA tour policy board. So I'm on, in my position on the board, I'm not, I'm not on that board for the PGA tour.

I'm representing the tour members and I'm representing the players. I'm not doing a good job for them if I don't think about what's in their best interests. So, for me, looking at it, I'm going to the Saudi thing. The tournament, this is not the SGL. If these guys have an opportunity to make 10 or 20% more, say a guy makes three or four million bucks a year, and he's getting paid half a million dollars to go and play the Saudi international, whatever it is. Between 10 and 20% of his early earnings, I don't think the tour should prohibit him from going and being able to do that. So I'm just looking from a player's best interest type of

deal. And I'm not saying that I'm happy or on board or anything that's going on. You're representing. I'm representing the players and trying to represent their best interest. I think that that makes a lot of sense. And what is your involvement then, I guess, in conversations or anything going on out there, both with PGA Tour, is I get the sense that the Tour gets the feeling with the memo that went out recently about communicating what the purse increases are, the Tour's model, I get the sense that at least they think that the players may not fully understand how money flows

through the PGA tour. Do you feel like that is the case out there with the players? Yeah, I certainly didn't know when I first came on tour, the business of the PGA tour worked, or I didn't know what a 501 C6 was, and I didn't know that there are these flow throes for tournaments and charities, and how the PGA tour is separated from the entities that run the tournaments and all this sort of stuff, right? It's complicated. It is complicated. When you get your tour card, all you want to do is play golf.

Get in as many tournaments as possible. Create as many great experiences as you can and try to play well. That's basically what you're trying to do. But I do think there should be like some, and I think there is for the rookies, I didn't come through the traditional rookie route of like whatwastheweb.com, what is now the corn fairy of being in the top 25 of that, getting onto the tour.

And then from there, you have what's called a rookie orientation where you go to Sawgrass or a day or two and you learn all about the PJ tour. And that involved learning about the PJ tour business and its business model and revenues and seeing where the money flows and all that sort of stuff. So I didn't know that that happened because I never had been through that, but I think it would be important for guys to maybe every three or five years to have a refresher on it. Guys that aren't involved in the player advisory council, that aren't on the board to be like, hey guys.

And yes, they have an annual tour meeting. It's usually at Wells Fargo every year in May. There's 156 guys, and it's a slideshow, and it's like, no, let's try to do this a little more productively. Because I think it is important that all the guys are educated on tour business, where the money comes from, where the money goes, how that benefits them, all that sort of stuff. So, I certainly, in my younger days on tour, I didn't know and I didn't care. I really didn't care. But as I've got a little bit older and got more involved in this side of things, I think

it is important for not only the tour, but the guys to want to be educated on the operation side of things. Well, because it's in history shows us that players can get together and have conversations with each other about things that they're aggrieved about and that might not be accurate. They might not have the full amount of information.

And it just seems like that kind of goes through the little cycles if we're talking about the history of the PGA tour. Yeah, it does. And you're always going to have, I think the thing is, well, I said this a touch on it earlier about the pack being a cross-section of the membership. You have John Ram on the pack, who's currently

a number one player in the world. But you also have Roberto Castro or Peter Maldonado. You guys that are either on and off tour or struggling to keep their cards and trying to get into events and all the sort of stuff. So representing a group too. Right, so it's like you've got John Ram who gets in any tournament he wants, gets whatever.

And yeah, there's top guys, but there's also these other guys and there's guys that are somewhat in the middle. And it is a good cross-section of the membership and just to see where guys are thinking. And again, in my role as Pac-Tarman, not on the policy board, I have to think of those guys that are that are on at the bottom, right? So then going on to, you know, PGL and you have an Andy Gardner on here and him saying, well, I think I can create five billion worth of equity for the players

and distribute that amongst the 210. So I'm sort of adding that up and I think that's like $20 million each. I'm like, again, I'm not doing a good job for the players. If I don't bring that to the attention of the tour and be like, just like, sit down and listen to this guy or do something because yes, okay, I get that the business model that the PJ Tour is currently under is, you know,

Andy said, hamstrung in terms of this is just sort of what they can do and they're doing the best with what they can and I agree with, I think they do a wonderful job within the structure they're in because that was what was created before Jay took into our, it is what it is. But if someone comes along and says, I think I can create this amount of revenue and distribute it amongst every player, you have to listen to that, right?

Because that's, again, if that's my responsibility to all the players that voted me into this position. We had a talk before that we turned the mics on too as well about golf being, you know, what is golf? Is it an entertainment sport or is it participation sport, right? And yet some interesting thoughts on that. I'd like to pick your brain on, but my answer to that would be that it's both. I participate in an I play. I play, you know, I watch football. That's an entertainment sport for me. I don't play football,

but I think your role is an entertainment for the game of golf. And one of many roles you play, but your roles to entertain me through the television, I'm watching it. What is your view on that? As you grimace and grin at me. So I agree, right? I think someone high up in the game of golf said that elite professional golf is the window shop into our game. That is what you view our game through, right? So it is certainly an entertainment product or sport or whatever you want to say. It's not purely that though, right? It's also a participation sport.

And I think for the whole game of golf success, what is success? Success is just getting more people on the golf course, getting more people playing, making it more accessible. You've traveled to my part of the world, you've traveled to Scotland. I mean, it's so easy to play the game of golf. Sure. So easy. So I would love to see that more in this country

and other countries and make it more accessible. I think the golfs had this stigma long enough of being a rich white fans game basically. And I'd love that to be broken and to make it more accessible. And there are some great programs out there in this country that are doing that. First T, youth on course, all sorts of PJ Junior League. There's so many great, great organizations that are doing that work. But I get that if it's not entertaining, people aren't going to want to go and a PJ Junior League, there's so many great organizations that are doing that work, but I get that if it's not entertaining,

people aren't gonna wanna go and play. So there is that side of it too. So, and all these things are constantly being talked about, being addressed, but it's golf, and golf traditionally has moved really slowly, and it hasn't been at the forefront of innovation. So, I think you will see things coming down the line, but they're just sort of tip towing their way to it. I think that's sort of where it's at.

And you're not in a huge hurry to turn golf into Formula One. Not after what happened last week. Oh my goodness. So again, that's where, look, and Netflix is about to come and do a documentary on the PJ tour, just like it did with Formula One. And I think that'll be a wonderful, you know, that's a great, you know, that's the other thing as well, right? I think the PJ tour has provided us all with this platform to grow our brand and hit sand that word, but to, you know, lift our profiles and do all that. So, you know, they have provided us a platform to go out and create opportunities

for ourselves and do these things. So I think people have to be mindful of that too. But you know, yeah, they're going to do this Netflix thing and that's going to be great for the profile of some of these guys. But again, I think what happened last Sunday in Formula One is the narrative was more important than the result, and that can never happen in golf. That story shouldn't be more important than the actual result. And I think that's where it got a little clouded last week. There was a great tweet.

It was a cop order throughout there. Like, all right, I need somebody to make a golf equivalent of what just happened. It's like, well, Rory's beating Tiger by five. Charlie Hoffman got struck by lightning on the 14th hole. So Rory and Tiger having to chip off for the win. I'm Tiger's using the driver and Rory's using the wedge. It probably still beat me, but it's true. It was just, it was on anyways.

It, again, I'm so glad that, officials in our game aren't as, you know, they don't make the rules like that and they're not as, you know, we're not playing God. Yeah, we're, we govern ourselves and for the most part and that's, that's a good thing. Again, this will, this will be projecting a little bit, but if I may, uh, saying about, watching the Ryder Cup, watching your emotion after it, seeing, you know, Kyle Porter again, wrote an awesome piece on just team golf in general. And what really stuck the line that from that that stuck with me was like failing together can be more rewarding than, than winning can be alone. And I watch something, like we're talking about managing energy, we're talking about the evolution of a career

and just, and from my experience, covering the game, it's not as glorious as a lot of people think it is to travel. And it's a lot more lonely playing professional golf than a lot of people would think it would be. You don't necessarily travel with huge posse, it's not great fun every night and whatnot. Yet you get together for this team event. All that gets washed away almost.

And it seems like it rejuvenates you. It gives you this purpose. And I'm wondering if that can be more, if team golf being more frequent in professional golf is something that kind of helps alleviate those other two years. Do you have any thoughts on that? Yeah. So I would say that like part of the reason that that? Yeah. So I would say part of the reason that I think all, part of the reason that the United States

maybe haven't done so well at Ryder Cups before, it seems like this bunch are really like they've grasped it. And they really, they want to be a team. They all get along. They all, it just seems like a more cohesive, I'll say, friendlier bunch, but even like on tour and seeing everyone play practice runs together, it does seem like they're all there is a bit more togetherness. And that probably starts with Presidents Cup and going into Rider Cups, but

I think that for Europeans, what it feels is special to us that it is once every two years that we play a team event where the American guys they play one a year and they maybe don't get as amped up for it as we do because it's they don't have to wait that extra year. And that's what makes the Ryder Cup special is the fact that it's only every two years. The World Cup and Soccer's once every four, Olympics once and every four. So there is a the World Cup and soccer once every four, Olympics once every four. So there is a NFL's only, whatever,

I'm at 20 weeks long. So, and then you're in another 32 weeks for it to start again, there is that exclusivity that people yearn to, I think that's a part of it, but there is certainly space within the professional game to have some team events. I don't think it has, like look what Cricket has done with the IPL.

These two month long series, ones in like May and ones in November, where you get these teams and it's 2020 and it's, you know, runs and it's a lot of fun. So, and yes, Cricket is a team sport, but then there's a different element to it when everyone gets involved with the IPL. And that could be something within golf that I think would be pretty cool.

Something like an IPL model where, okay, we're gonna take the month of, in between these two measures, and at the end of the season where these are the two months where we play team golf and we get together and it could be fun and could be exciting and different formats, playing night golf, like all the stuff that we talk about when we say product, right?

Is like that, that would, I think that would be a good thing for golf and it would rejuvenate things and I think it wouldn't only be a good thing for fans, but it would be a good thing for players too. I think it would be a nice break from the typical 72-hole stroke play week after week grind that we all go through. What is what is product to you? It's I mean the product is yeah the product is the outward facing brand that you put it to the consumer or the fan, right? So no one would argue and say that the four major championships products are feeling because

they're traditional events and they're... so I think the product, and I'm doing this, we're not... Close. Yeah, air quotes. I think over the years, it's become very saturated. I think that's the thing. It's like I turn on the golf channel and every week there is some different tournament on multiple tournaments. You know, there's going to be one in Europe, there's going to be one in the States, there's going to be, and that's good. I think that you need that. But I think to get, you know, we want

to say the product of getting the top players playing together all at the CM time, I think there maybe needs to be less saturation and maybe cut the tournaments down a touch. I'm not saying I, again, talking about my role within the tour, like I recognize that these tournaments really benefit the guys that are 125, 150, 175 on tour, so you still have to give them a chance. It's a hard one because I think everything in this world has become more and more star driven as the years have went by. People don't have time to turn into watch 5R on of golf. They, you know, a little 15 minute highlight package at the end of the day and they're happy. So there's all of that stuff that needs to be thought about. And, like, I think we're all in agrarians that the consuming golf and golf being an entertainment sport, I think if we're going

to have it every single week of the year. There are some opportunities where we can change it up and make it a little more fun and exciting. I'm all on board with that. No, and it's like you talk about these and you talk to yourself right into it being about, go on all the way back up to top, 501 C6, right? You keep pulling on it, it's like, well, these events exist to support these guys right here,

right? So, you can't just cut a turn. If you cut 10 tournaments, like, guys are going to go find somewhere else, but they're going to go play the European tour. They're going to go cutting events right now. They're going to find alternatives. Sure. And again, I'm like, whether guys want to play on an alternative turn, that's not of my

concern, and nor should it be. Like, I'm happy playing where I play. And this is my line is, no one benefits more from the current system than me. No one. It's from the PJ Tour, a DP World, to the PIP, to Concos Top 10, to FedEx, to our benefits in terms of pension.

I like, no one, if you're a player like me, to FedEx, to our benefits in terms of pension. No one, if you're a player like me, or a certain, like, no one benefits more than us right now. But that's not to say that things shouldn't change and evolve and I'm getting better. And because, again, I'm trying to take my, I'm trying to remove myself from this for a minute and be like, okay, what would be better

for the overall game? And again, I think, and that's, you know, you go to like a drive chakra top golf or one of these things, like that's not golf, but it's a wonderful introduction to the game for a lot of people. That's less intimidating, that's fun. Like, and from then, if people are like,

oh, I wouldn't mind going and taking a lesson from a local PGA Pro. I mean, that's a great thing. So the tradition is to be like, well, that's not golf, that's not whatever. But it gets a club in people's hand. They play. So if you can have these innovative fun formats that I think there is room in the game to put on and to do and get the best players to play in them.

I think that could be good for everyone. Part three courses, 50 yard holes, easy entry points to getting people into the game that don't need to hit driver, don't need to lose golf balls. I wish I had a place to take my wife to play where hit pitch shots, hit puts from 50 yards or things like that. She does not need to hit driver and things like that. No. And then you look at like I had to command Bryson in the Bahamas a couple weeks ago. I said like I have never chained in the watch a long drive competition before. And I was on YouTube

and I was trying to get I was like this is unbelievable. Even the comments that everybody. Even stuff like that is cool. It's different and I was trying to get, I was like, this is unbelievable. You should've even in the comments, that everybody. Even stuff like that is cool. It's different and I commanded him for at least being comfortable being different, right? This is something that's a big passion for him and he went out at Nice. I mean, it's amazing to watch him hit the golf ball at the minute.

So just all that different stuff, I think there's a place for it all in the game. I think this whole exercise of potential other leagues has made everyone in professional golf ask themselves, like, what do you play for? What do you want? Like, right? And as you just mentioned, no one benefits more in the current system. And I think you even said things of, you know, I've got more money that, you know, I've got my money. I don't need, you know, I don't need to play for money. So what, what do you, what do you play for? How would you answer that? What, what matters to you?

Truffees, pin flags. All my pin flags for my wins are up in my gym. All the trophies are obviously in my eyes. At this point in my career, I would give all the prize money back to just win trophies. All of it. Not what I've currently made, but going forward, you wouldn't have to pay me a penny.

How common is that on the floor? Probably not very, but I'm in a position where I've worked my ass off for the last 15 years to get to this position, so I'm very fortunate that I can say that. But I think that is it and I think as well, one of the things that really makes me smile is when someone comes up to me and say, like, I really enjoy watching you play golf. That's like, that's really cool. That's really, really cool. So if I can win trophies and put pin flags on my gym wall and give people a little bit of joy through watching me play the game, awesome.

What would you, how would you define or describe how you have set up your off course structure? How integral is that to you succeeding on the golf course and how does your structure compare to some of the other top guys out on tour? Yeah, so the way I think some other top guys have started to do what I'm doing in terms of investing and that side of things, but it's just that I've started a little younger. I've sort of just had a head start on a couple of those guys. So obviously Tiger started to invest in some things

and Phil and Ernie and those guys that are 40s, 50s, I just started at 30 because I benefited from where the game was at at that certain point. I benefited from the fact Tiger came along, you know, 15 years before I did, and I reap the rewards of what he built for all of us. So my structure is it's a really just trying to plan for the long-term and plan for the future. As I said, like I've got to the point now where I And as I said, like I've got to the point now where I try to make my money work for me. So instead of, like I still have endorsement deals and everything like that, but I would

imagine in the next five to seven years, I will get to a point where it might not make sense to take any money from companies because I value my time more with my family when I go home. And I can make my money work for me better by Investing in things and being a part of companies and you know, so that's what I've started to do so whether that be Golf pass golf channel and having an ownership stake in that whether it be The whip investment whether it be true and golf that we just invested in. These are all just sort of golf. We've got a bunch of different.

I set up an investment vehicle with Sean, my agent, and then Donal, who's my business manager. So three of us have an investment vehicle, golf symphony ventures. We've made 20 investments in different companies, all throughout the world, in different sectors. And it's just a way for my money to quietly work for me in the background so that I can just go and play golf

and not really worry about it. But I have long-term contracts with Nike, Taylor, Mead, Omega, Optum. So golf channel, golf pass,, like that's a long, long, long term deal. So I obviously have an obligation to that, but that's me being more of an owner in that, rather than actually having to commit time

and do all that sort of stuff. So yeah, I think at this point, I'm also a husband and a father, and I want to spend time at home and quality time, not time where I'm at home, but I'm having to go and do this day or that day. So just trying to make my money work for me, and that's a really nice position to be in. So whenever my contracts are up, whenever that is in the next few years, I can come to a point

where it's like, do I want to do this again? Or do I really value my time and be like, no, I'm just going to spend time at home when I am home and just sort of let my money work in the background for me? That is, that seems like lesson learned, right? Is it getting better every year in terms of the time that you're able to commit to things that you want to be spending your time on? That seems like the only, the very finite resource that we're talking about here. It is, it is time. And I think that was back to what we were talking about. At the start of this conversation was time management

and what, where do you need to invest your time and spend your time? And as I said at the start, if I invest and spend my time on the most, the two most important I invest and spend my time on the most two most important things to me or my family and my golf and if I can be present in both of those and really try to be the best golfer I can be, try to be the best person off the course in terms of a father and a husband, then everything else just sort of falls into place from there.

Talking to me about fatherhood. What's that been like? And I don't want to relate it just directly to golf, but second part of that being, how has it affected your routine? It's not a zero sum at all, but what's the perspective is the word that everyone falls back on in that one. It's not perspective. It's time management again.

It's like when we had Poppy, and especially those first few weeks, and just sort of trying to figure it all out. Like you, you're not prepared at all. Like everyone thinks they are, and then you get into it, and you're like, I have no clue what I'm doing. But we've kept it alive for 15 months, so that's good.

15 months already, wow. So that's good. But I think what did I do with all of my time? I just, you know, I feel like I must have just procrastinated so much. So I think that's been a big thing. And yeah, just trying to be more present when I'm at home and trying to, you know, not be scrolling on my phone

and not be doing stuff. And it's, you don't want to miss those moments where, you know, your daughter's growing up and you're not there for it or you're not present enough to catch that first data or that first step or whatever it is, right? So it's been great. People say it's good for your golf board, for your golf, whatever. I don't think it makes a difference, as I said at the start.

I'm really trying to separate those two things. You have them on the road with you. Sometimes. Not separate hotel rooms. So we try to do like a just adjoining room. Yeah. Just adjoining room. So sleep matters a lot. And pro golf massively. So yeah, it's not as if, yeah, like when I'm at a tournament and if she were to wait, thankfully, we've been blessed with a really good sleeper So that hasn't been a problem, but yeah, like if I'm at a tournament and she wakes up at 3 a.m I'm not gonna go and try to put her pacifier back in or like change a diaper I mean like Erica please come on that, but that means when I'm at home I'm happy to take a little more responsibility and do some stuff. Sure. I

Saved this one towards the end, so you don't rip my head off on this one. But why was the rip shirt in Dubai such a sensitive question? Because it's just a rip shirt. I guess that's not normal though. That's your serious rip shirt. I mean, broken enough clubs, so I was gonna do that again.

That's pretty normal. So, I just, it was like, what is the fascination with this rip shirt? I mean, the image is pretty priceless. You're still not. I didn't try to rip it down to the nipple. Especially in Dubai, like a, like a Islamic country where that sort of frowned upon, showing skin.

So, anyways, I was so frustrated. Like, I wasn't playing my best on Sunday, but I hit the, you know, I was okay. I was still tied for lead. I was like, right, you know, 15s of birdie hole, birdie this hole, you know, see what happens. And I hit this lovely little pitch shot from like 50 yards. Hits the pin comes into the bunker and like just, I mean, and then after that, I tried to go for a birdie on 16. I rammed a pupa by from like 30 feet,

like eight feet by, I missed it when coming back. So I wasn't frustrated at like, I wasn't going on OG, I'm so unlucky, per me. It was more like such an idiot for reacting to that bad break the way I did. That's what I was angry about. Happy for Colin, he played awesome. He birdied five the last seven, he deserved the win.

But my reaction to getting a bad break was like, you dumbass like what was that? So that was why I was angry. That's why I ripped the shirt, but I mean two weeks later in the Bahamas I'm still getting asked about it. I'm like, what it like is a rip shirt. I mean geez, it's okay I went in the pro shop. I got another one. I went back to the hotel and I was fine. See, that's a funny image as well. You buy a D-shirt. I sent Sean in the pro shop. I was sitting in the locker room saying, Sean, could you give me a shirt please?

So anyways. Last, we'll get you out of here on this, one of your favorite topics, I'm sure. I feel like you've done a lot of different, almost annually, you change up your routine before Augusta in some way. I feel, is that fair? Well, what is that fair to say too?

Yeah. What is the approach towards that? So I'm gonna play the Middle East, Abid Abid Dubai, and then I'm not gonna play until Augusta. Really? No. No. That feels like news.

No, I am. So the one thing I would say over the last couple of years is traditionally for the top players, the last event you play is the match play in Austin. And I think having a match play event, your last reps before going to Augusta isn't necessarily a great thing. So I think I'll play through the Florida swing,

again, work at home, work, getting things right. And then I think I'll potentially miss the match play and play San Antonio and then the Masters. I think that could be a, I did that back in 2013. I played San Antonio, played well, and then went into the Masters and played okay. I had a bad nine holes like I usually do. But I think that playing before, I think not sort of, you know, having your mind on something else rather than getting dragged into the

whole hype train of the Masters in first major of the year and all that, I think is probably a good thing. So that's the plan at the minute that could still change depending on how I play and what goes on, but that's the thought anyway. Do you feel like the hype train is dying down at all? You're, does it get bigger? Let's stay the same, get lower going into it.

Do you have a personal hype train? Like what is, get lower, going into it. Do you have a personal hype train? Like what is it? Yeah, I think it gets lower every year. Like it was massive in 2015 after coming off, you know, what I did. Pretty big in 16 as well. Maybe a little subjewd in 17 because of the injury. 18 was big coming off the win at Bay Hill. 19 was big coming off the win at the players. 20 was weird just because it was in November and was just different. And then this year felt very lucky just because I didn't have my best stuff going in there. So, but it hasn't felt as hype since 2015 when it was just like, felt like I was on the cover of every magazine going in there.

And I played well, I finished fourth. Jordan just absolutely obliterated everyone else and had an awesome week. So I shot 12 under par for the tournament, played okay, but it wasn't anywhere near good enough to hang with him that week. Has your personal, I don't want to say desire. That's the word that's coming to mind here.

So you can take that however you want. Has your personal desire for it evolved at all over the years? I still want to win it as badly as I did back in the day. I mean, but I feel like if I can cycle in a little as a bit, I feel like you've at times tried to downplay how badly you want to win it. Of course, but like you have to. Yeah, for yourself, just again, talking about, you have to go in playing these tournaments

with as much freedom as possible. And Augusta more than any other golf course in the world can get you all tied up in tents and all that sort of stuff. Tentative is the word that I sort of use. So yeah, you have to do that. You have to try to do, but I think embracing it and embracing the fact that you have a chance to do something that very few people have done.

Yeah, and Routell says this to me, like what's wrong with going and chasing your dreams? That seems pretty cool. I, yeah, that seems really, really cool. I get to chase my dreams for a living. It's gotten you pretty cool. So that's sort of my attitude towards it. You know what I rewatched last night was your Chronicles

of a Champion Golf or the Open Championship film. That thing is so good. All that footage you as a kid and just like, I think it's just freaking awesome. All those range swings, your parents did a great job archiving footage. That's the, a lot of those videos are bonnets as well. Oh, really?

Yeah, yeah. But again, like, if I, I look at that kid, and that's who I want to be, in love with the game, just absolutely in love with the game, can't wait to see what's next. Like that, that's the sweet spot in terms of the mindset. That's where I'm trying to be. Because you know what caught me was rewatching it was,

you did use past tense when you said love to golf in the very beginning of that that caught me on the second time. Okay. Yeah. I don't know if that's if that's reached it a little too far. No, I love golf. I don't I don't I I certainly present tense. I I love this game. It's I mean it's been very good to me. It really has. And, yeah, it's, again, there's a love-hate relationship and you go through your periods of frustration, but at the end of the day, you have to realize why you picked a club up and it's because we loved it and we had fun and the more you can do that on the golf course, the better. Knowing it, time is a precious commodity of yours.

We are going to get you out here and And we appreciate you making an hour for us and really appreciate the time where I'm going. My pleasure. Thanks for having me on again. Cheers. Good right club. Be the right club today. Yes.

Be the right club. That's better than most. How about it? That is better than most. Better than most. How about in? That is better than most. Better than most.