No Laying Up - Golf Podcast - NLU Podcast, Episode 512: Joel Dahmen

Episode Date: January 12, 2022

GOOD MORNING DAHMEN! Joel Dahmen returns to pod fresh off his week at the Tournament of Champions in Maui.  We discuss his progression through professional golf from the mini tours to becoming a winner on the PGA Tour as well as a number of current topics in the game from greens books to alternate tours, his practice round match with Phil and a ton more. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

I'm going to be the right club today. Yes! That is better than most. That is better than most. Better than most. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to the No-Lang, a podcast, solid here. Got a fun interview with you today with Joel Damon. He's out in Hawaii, talk a little bit about playing at Cap allue this past week, how you transition over to Wai-Lai and the Sony Open. What it's like to play no cut offense.

Now, he's a winner on the PGA tour. Joel is, I think, his third time coming on the podcast. He's always a delight to talk to. This interview is brought to you by CashApp. I cannot recommend this app enough. Any other app you would be using to send money to friends, collect money from friends, out the window, and not only that, once you got the money in your account,

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We've had a lot of fun with it. We're going to be settling all bets on the golf course this year in Bitcoin through cash app. It's weird to describe a money related app as fun, but I honestly have fun just looking at and scrolling around on cash app. It's weird to describe a money related app as fun, but I honestly have fun just looking at it scrolling around on cash app. So trust us on this one, use code no laying up, gives new users $15 cash app will also set aside $10 to sign for each sign up to a 501c3 verified charity of our choice. So the more people using the code, the more support they're giving to the charity. And also you're getting $15 and every friend you invite to cash up,

you get signed up, you get $15 for that as well. So again, find cash up in the store, use code, no laying up, it's signed up without any further delay. Here's Joel Damon. We're going to start with a little exercise. I want you to pick a moment in time can be McKenzie tour. It can be whenever pick a moment in time when professional golf felt it's hardest when you were at a low, maybe you know, wondering if you could make it. That's part one of this question, but first I need you to pick that moment.

What would the moment be? Man, I was really low last year. Even my rookie year when I missed a bunch of cuts, I was still excited to be a rookie. I was wide-eyed and pushy-tailed. Let's put it on the PJ tour. It was all good. Probably, I think I missed seven of eight cuts to start the calendar year last year.

That was low. I didn't know it was going on. I couldn't figure it out. I was practicing pretty hard. I was still playing terrible golf. I wasn't like I was missing a couple either. So I'd never really been on a run that bad before. So that was probably it for me. And then I won the following week. I don't know what happened. really been on a run that bad before. So that was probably it for me. Um,

I won the following week. Well, I was going for some, I was going for some different that because I was going to ask you have you go back in time to whatever that moment would be and tell if somebody came up to you and said, if you years, you're going to play an tournament in one of the most beautiful places in the world, you're going to beat nine guys total and you're gonna get $110,000, $110,500. How would that make you feel? Really is mind-boggling, actually. I was a little jaded maybe my first year or two on tour, like watching the good players

gonna play in all these no-cut events and make a bunch of money and set a set points and all that stuff. I'm like, how am I supposed to compete with this? This is fair, like I got to play in these half-point events. I gotta, you know a set points and all that stuff. I'm like, how am I supposed to compete with this? This is fair. I got to play in these half-point events. I got to, I don't have that opportunity. And now I'm pretty happy with the way things are.

I shot 15 under as long as I'm doing that bad. It's crazy. That's how do you, did you play well to shoot 15 under? How do you reconcile that being bottom half of the field when you shot 15 under par? I don't know, you know, when the conditions get easy like that. I know your expectations probably change, but yeah, it's hard to like point at anyone and be like, yeah, you didn't play very good last week. Yeah, and I just didn't get the ball in the hole like I chipped and putted pretty poorly all week. I mean, if on Sunday alone,

I think I had seven chips and three holes. So I three chipped on six, I two chipped on nine, and I two chipped on 15. So like something like that, like you're just getting the ball on the whole, but I played fine. Like it's easy off the tee. I think that's a big deal. So open off the no one gets in trouble off the tee. There's no separation there. You can hit it far, but everyone's going to hit it on the green because they're so big. So then it just comes out to you know, how close did you hit it? And you know, did you make them bow your two?

But I didn't play that bad. I'm kind of excited to play Sony to see actually how my game really is on a, I mean, it's still you have to make a bunch of pretty easier, but it's that least kind of narrow and like a real golf course. You got, you know, served a little bit of humble pie on your way to the course on one of the days. I need you to tell us that story. She know she know out of that on Twitter. She does an amazing sort of follow up by the way. But tell us that. Yes. She knows actually here next to me. I just

say to breakfast pretty good. And he's comfortably doing nothing. Yeah, it was Tuesday. We were going to the golf course for nine hole practice round. Almost everyone stays at the ritz, which is just at the bottom of the hill, shuttle up to the top. And we hopped in a shuttle. They take volunteers, they take players, they take fans, they kind of take everyone. And we hopped in, he's like, is this your first time here? I said, yeah, I had genos with me and my father-in-law was with me. And so we just kind of, and all of a sudden he kind of went into his spiel. I'm sure he said a hundred times that week to everyone else of how to watch the pros. You know, you got to get to 18 early to get a good seed. You know it's you know, I said kind of don't hike the front line. It's too long. Go to the

back then and hang out and I was in the middle seat and Gino was behind me and I didn't realize he'd start filming until we got out of the van. He's like, I was like, were you filming that? He's like, yeah, I caught some pretty funny moments there. And Gino being Gino, he tweeted it out there like pretty innocently, you know, just to show like, I mean, I'm a no one really out there and I wasn't wearing my bucket hat, which is maybe the only reason anyone would notice me anyway. So it was, it was just quite funny. It happens more often than people would ever think probably and Gino tweeted it and it kind of a little bit of steam and then I don't know if you saw in the comments the shuttle driver actually

commented back that no I didn't. Oh not good. He goes I'm not here volunteer in 14 hours a day. I don't appreciate you making fun of me. At least I don't clean another guy's balls for a living. So he was pretty pissed off. And then Geno kind of, you know, he apologized, he said, you know, I wasn't trying to, you know, attack him or anything.

It was just kind of a funny moment. And we're actually on Sunday, we're walking from 14 green to 15 tea in the show that I ever pulled Geno aside. He's like, hey, man, I just want to kind of squash everything. Like, you know, I'm sorry for what I said. And it was a gal like thanks for volunteering. Like it wasn't anything malicious. So it kind of carried throughout the week.

It was all good. I didn't know that part. I was the next thing I was going to ask was how often did does that happen to you? Like little instances where people don't recognize you or are you pretty anonymous out there just in normal everyday life and PGA tour? Yeah, I mean, everyday life. Like it's getting a little more.

If you have a good week, maybe you just kind of were on TV. Like we get noticed a couple times for a couple of days, but that's about it. You know, I don't have to hide or anything. Every now and then I get a high five or something like that or an airport, but very rarely for me. And out of golf term, obviously, if I'm wearing a bucket hat, it's a lot easier for people to do it. But other than that, I'm not noticed very often. But I mean, there's been a couple of times where a volunteer told

me, you know, to stay outside the ropes or something like that. They don't think I'm a player that week, but it's getting less and less when you wear the bucket hat. So back to Capelua, there's a lot of discussion going on Twitter. People were really fired up about how low the scores were and golf getting out of control and all this stuff. And I was kind of trying to serve up a little bit to say, there's not a winless and soft golf course out there that Tor Pros are not going to just pick apart, especially like a resort course that is just not that challenging to you guys.

It, you know, what, what is, I guess it's a better question. What is challenging to you guys? What makes a hard golf course and why does Capeloo and not play like a hard golf course? When there's no win? Yeah. I mean, Capeloo and number one is a resort golf course. It is built for people pay four or five hundred bucks to play their beautiful views. It's just, it's what it is.

It's wide open off the tee. It's big greens. Obviously every week everyone's complaining about how low the scores are, but I mean the guys are just that good at the top that week. I mean it's just a fact. So I also think it's okay to have a shootout of like I mean it's like record breaking stuff. People should if it happens like the 33 guys are 30 plus under par. They should appreciate that. They should be like, wow, this is his story. I mean, Ernie yells at Helvet since he was in three.

So it's not like it's happening all the time. You know, in the courses are like that, it's soft, winded and blow. So I think people should just appreciate what happened last week and appreciate the theater of Matt Jones on the weekend. Ramen came Smith on Saturday, was incredible. Both making pots.

I mean, what did Cam shoot eight or nine under again on Sunday? Like that's just for just holding off number one in the world. I think it's it should be appreciated more than talk down about. Yeah. And it's also, you know, I actually every now and then we'll enjoy a look into like, Hey, when there's no defenses, like you guys don't, you can't fathom how good these guys are. Like you just, you really can't like, you see it a little bit the PNC championship.

I know it's a scramble and I know, you know, whatever. But like the, the, the tour pros are carrying those teams, but they play very simple 400 yards straight away, par force, and it's like, dude, get six of nine birdies or you're losing pace. Like that is the level. That's the level out there. I, I got to play Saturday and Sunday.

So I play with my coach, Robert Shell, and then my father-in-law, Joe, who's, he's like a 12-handy captain, his home course in Phoenix. You know, what does that mean? He shoots about 90, I guess. You know, it was good scores or low 80s, but he's basically a bogey golfer. He shot. So it was, it was pretty wet. So when we played the back teams, it was long, but my coach who played on the pd 200,000. It doesn't play much anymore, but he shot 75 like 80 Saturday Sunday, and he's a legit scratch call for, but it's so long. We were hitting four irons and hybrids and everything when it firmed up on the weekend. You know, we're hitting eight irons, but my bogie golfer father-in-law shot 92-100 at this golf course.

That is, it's 7,600 yards. It was playing long. And it's just, I don't care, like, it's just a difference in, I think a normal scratch golfer would go out there and still shoot his normal scratch course. I'm using it all of a sudden shoot five or six hundred every day out there. When it happens like that, people should just appreciate it for the week and then hope the wind blows here at Sony and that it gets baked out in the scorjones. Do you guys make a vacation out of going out there for and kind of, you know,

did you, did it feel like you were enjoying the perks of being a PGA tour winner that week? Yeah, for sure. We flew out the previous Wednesday, so the 29th of December, we flew out with my mother-in-law and father-in-law and then my coach and his girlfriend came out the following day. So we did hikes, we did well-watching, dinner crews, we did fishing, drinks by the pool, jumped in the waves, kind of we did it all. And then when Tuesday rolled around it kind of got a little more into golf stuff, you know, as I can normal golf

week. But we definitely took advantage of it. It's not a cheap week, staying at the ritz. I mean, you go down for lunch and it's, you know, for two people in a beer, it's $100. So luckily, obviously, it's no kind of evidence. A nice purse. But we looked at the bill and we left. I was like, Oh, my, that is, that's a good week. So we enjoyed it all. We had a blast. I think it's just kind of one of those things. Actually, the first time there, we enjoyed the whole thing. And there's not too much of the golf course. I think that I would have to come out as early. The fairways and the second shots are all basically the same. If you can just put on the green and greens, and either hit it good or if you don't hit it great that week, then you're not winning.

Yeah. Last place got 100K in there. So I don't feel that bad of the Ritz. With that view of the Ritz lunch is expensive. Like I hear you, but I just I just don't feel it's of the Ritz with that view of the Ritz lunch is expensive like I hear you But I just I just don't feel it's not a typical week for me. Let's put it that way So is it I know you guys an underrated I think part of your guys job is Your ability to pick up from and go from place to place different grass different wins different climate different everything The next week. And not just play good golf, like go beat the best players in the world. And, you know, it's so different, right?

I just speaking personally, like if I, there's courses in my own climate that I'm like, this one fits my eye great and the next one just does it. And you got to go compete on all of those. So is it easy to go from something like Capelua as up and down as it gets to wildlife about as flat as it gets? Like is it a flip of the switch? Is it a couple, you know, nine holes on the golf course and you're pretty climatized? Yeah, I think as far as this is because they're both sea level and so you kind of have

how far your balls are going to go and with track man and quad and all the other stuff you have like you hit like 10 balls you pretty much have have your number sell them as far as that's concerned. So that's not too bad. The grasses are about the same. Green spees, they're always about the same every week. So it's not too bad for us. We have a lot of things going in our favor to do that. I think, and I haven't looked into the data per save,

and I'm sure someone has it out there that. Guys who grew up on the West Coast or played a lot on the West Coast, and then all of a sudden you go to Florida. And like what's the difference in, we play on Bint or, you know, over-seated Rye, like the perfect Rass to kind of scragly Bermuda sometimes in Florida, I'd be curious what the difference is

because it takes me a while to figure out how to chip and, you know, it's just a different contact point in your irons and things like that. I think that's the biggest difference. So I know you hear a lot of guys not liking the West Coast when they grew up on the East Coast and vice versa. So I think that's much more difficult. I think it's kind of where you grew up and what you're used to.

But everything's so good out here. Our green speeds are about to say everything's manicured nicely. It's not too bad. And then when you have all the technology we have now, you hit a couple of balls and you have your distance figured out and you're good to go. Yeah, I think a shorter way of saying what I was trying to say

was you don't really have a choice of like, if you're not that comfortable with a certain grass type or a temperature or any kind of weird things about a golf course, you don't have a choice. It's like, all right, well, you can't just wait for everything to be perfect for you. You got to like get it figured out. That's basically it. And I think that, I believe in not, I've actually had good events on Bermuda as, you know, as I've had on the West Coast. So I think you just play a good golf wherever you can and it kind of all, you know, if you play a long enough

career, it's all going to probably figure itself out. So after your win in the Dominican, you told the boys at Mesa Country Club, open up the tab. I'll be home next week. How bad was it? I couldn't believe how nice it was. Actually, I didn't know it, but it was our club championship that weekend. So there was a lot of people in the bar. It was not bad at all. It was like 12, 50 maybe. It was under 1500 bucks. Pretty good deal there. And then like a month later, Travis, I had, it was kind of my first Friday back of actually playing like in the boys game and everyone out.

So true links, my shoe sponsor, they came out, they donated like 200 pairs of shoes, we just backed up a truck and started to hand them out to everyone. And then Travis Matthew put up hats and shirts in the bar and open the bar to have that day again for everyone and they took care of that tab. So it was cheaper I thought it was going to be but maybe that's just the prices that may start are pretty good to me but it wasn't nearly as bad as I thought it was going to get out of

control. I have picked up a couple of Bev cards to in the last I guess in the last couple months so it's all working so out. Well it's like like say what people the richer you get like the less you actually have to pay for things anyways, like other people start paying, pay everything for you. But it's amazing how that works. A quick break here to check him with our friends at original penguin. Of course, you saw the big penguin on Cameron Smith's left chest as he was winning the Sentry tournament, Champions this past week.

Original penguin also partnered with us on a wild world of golf episode with Cameron Smith. They helped us crash one of his shoots at stream song last year. If you have not seen that on our YouTube channel, please do check that out. Big shout out to those guys for being big supporters of our content. And we are big supporters of their apparel, where that's why you see it in so many of our videos. I'm rocking their hoodies on a near daily basis.

They're lightweight. Keep you for Florida weather. They're absolutely perfect. You don't need something too heavy down here. They're great for spring. Great for fall, and more warmer climates, if you will. I love them.

I sleep in their shorts every night. I have their underwear. I have their long sleeves. I have their sweaters, quarter zips, half zips, whatever you, whatever they can possibly come up with. I've gotten my closet and I'm wearing on a near daily basis. Go to originalpenguin.com, check out all of their offerings. You'll continue to see their stuff

in our content in the future because we absolutely love it. I think I'm due for a new order. I think I say that every month, but I really am putting one in now without any further delay. Let's get back to Joel Damon. You touched on this. You were missing cuts left and right, leading up to this event.

How does the switch flip? I hate asking a question that generic, but like, could you sense anything that week? Does it, you know, does it help that you're playing in windier conditions? And maybe that makes puts you more in a competitive mindset and less about the swing. Take us to that week and how you were able to flip the script on how your year was going. Starting off, I did, I guess I started palm spring. So I played the whole West Coast, but I just, I typically play a little fade or a little push and I couldn't get the ball going right.

I mean, everything was kind of missing left for me and kind of found out that my clubs were had gotten bent a little bit upright So that's kind of my fault for not realizing that but eventually we kind of dialed in that was it so I had played a couple good rounds in between there But if I'm not hitting it well, I don't have a short game or putter to kind of keep up with it all the time It just kind of goes down a spiraling hole for me and I was getting very frustrated. I felt like I was getting closer and closer and I played Bay Hill. I felt closer and then players was like when I was really low. I terrible putter that week. I had three putter to a bunch coming. I think I only missed cup by one and I was pretty bummed there. So I knew I was getting closer though.

Geno was super positive with players. Like, man, I really wish we could have made that cut. You were training towards the weekend. Like just have a couple more competitive rounds. I think that, you know, where we're. Players is when we feel like we kind of crested and we were kind of on our way back. So, and then that following weekend,

I took off Valspar. And, or I don't know whatever week that was, but took it off for a friend's batch of party in Vegas. And it was kind of hard to take a week off because I was going nowhere. I think it was outside the 125 at the time. It was like I kind of told my wife at the time and told buddies, I'm going here a complete reset.

Like 48 hours, give it a go. We played golf both days actually. We actually played really well the second day. It's had a creek even You know having a couple of averages. So complete reset Flu home Sunday packed up and then fluted Dominican and I got there and I felt great on Tuesday afternoon I told you know like I think we're winning this week I've never said that before in my life really and I

Hit the ball. Okay. It's a wide open easier golf course, but the wind blows and that's, you know, I get it favors a better ball striker like myself. So I can fly it down pretty good. I played well there in the past. You know, everything was kind of trending my my way and I think after full reset in Vegas, you know, a little change in attitude and get into a place where I've had success in the past kind of all clicked that week. And it did fortunately.

Well, it seems like I don't remember exactly when this was. So you can correct me and tell me when this was, but either short, almost, almost immediately after your putt or before you even left the green, you were caught on camera saying pretty loudly, like it is so hard to win a golf tournament. Why was that? Like the first place your mind went after just winning one? Why they know take us there? What made that be your one of your first thoughts?

Yeah, I hadn't won anything in a while. I didn't win on a corn fairy tour. I won a couple times in Canada. You know, and it's like I just it's hard to win. So and I'm not there all the time. You know, maybe a couple times a year, a handful times a year. I'm kind of in that position where the adrenaline's going to win. So, and I'm not there all the time, maybe a couple times a year, a handful times a year, I'm kind of in that position where the adrenaline's going late Sunday,

but I think I had a two or three shot lead on the front. I was four under, three of my first five or three hundred through four hot start, just kind of cruising around. And I was absolutely cruise control. I didn't really have any nerves. I was just really relaxed calm. And all of a sudden,

I made a bad swing on 11, tough part three and my world started spinning. Like I still felt okay, but it was like everything was moving so fast. June, I had a crazy long discussion into, I think it was 12 to par five second shot, couldn't get my head around like normal shot, right? It's like Thursdays.

Oh, you just grab this club. You just hit it. No big deal. Everything was moving so quickly for me. I couldn't grasp simple ideas of target club. How far the ball was going? Little things like that. So, and it never slowed down.

And then I, whatever it was, I bogeyed like an easy par five on 14 and all of a sudden it just kept getting faster and faster. And it never slowed down. So even freezing, walking slow, whatever it was, I bogeyed like an easy par five on 14 and all of a sudden it just kept getting faster and faster and it never slowed down. So even freezing, walking slow, whatever it is, I couldn't, I was like an hour ago, I was just fine, like I was playing around with my boys on Sunday hanging out and now I couldn't wrap my head around what was going on and you know, hit some good shots down the stretch but just trying to quiet your mind out and think like I hadn't been there really before and I couldn't stop spiraling out of control basically. So I think that's why it was like the last two hours of was an absolute rollercoaster I'd never been there before. So I think that's why I was just like wow this is so hard to win

I hope it gets easier next time we met position because that back nine was was hard You know, I mean you have a hell of a shot in 18 there with, uh, yeah, our best shots. I've hit. Yeah, for sure. With that much on the line, that's where like, I don't know how you don't aren't incredibly aware of everything on the line with that shot yet, you know, knowing that your best chance of having the most successful shot is not thinking about that's everything that's on the line. So do you stand over that with any different swing thought than any other shot that you hit in your life?

No, I had hit four iron into 16, four iron into 17, and it was a perfect number for the four iron again on 18. And I was, I mean, I was visibly shaking, but it was one of those like, it's so wide up there. Like there's no real, you can kind of mishit it and still get it up and down from almost anywhere, one of those like, it's so wide up there. Like there's no real, you can kind of mishit it and still get it up and down from almost anywhere, one of those deals. So it's not like I'm trying to like cover water, like, hit it just, it was just like aim left, hit it hard, hit it off a club face, and the wind's gonna take it

somewhere on the green. So like those things helped a lot in that situation for me, I think in that I just hit the previous couple, pretty solid. So aim left, hit it hard. I think in that I just hit the previous couple, pretty solid. So aim left, hit it hard. I think that's my, when I'm nervous, I just start dummy it down as much as I possibly can. So, and luckily it, you know, worked out to,

it was one of those things too. Like I had perfect number there too. I had a great number on 17 years front edge. Like I think those things kind of happen when, when you went, you just kind of look into perfect golf shots at that fit your eye. That makes sense. Was it, you know, I don't know what your expectations were for either what life would be like or what the feeling would be like winning a tournament? You know, the reality of it was it, you know, is it similar to what you were expecting it to be? Yeah, I mean, I also recognized it wasn't a major. It wasn't what you were expecting it to be?

Yeah, I mean, I also recognize it wasn't a major. It wasn't, you know, it was half point event. It was big deal. Yeah, it was, but for me, I mean, it was over a hundred events. I think it was like my hundred tenth event or so. I was, you know, I was getting to a point. You're like, whoa, like, let's kind of get one here. Let's, let's close one of these things out. So, yeah, I think there's kind of get one here. Let's let's close one of these things out. So, um,

Ev, yeah, I think there was just so much raw emotion, immediately, like between Geno and my wife coming on the green, like, that was just, you know, we've been together for, ever, you know, all three of us have. So, uh, I was just kind of raw emotions of that. And then kind of following the week, the two weeks following, just like, cloud nine, like you're responding text for a week. You're playing Valero the next week was just kind of fun. You just find everyone beers and hang it out. And I didn't even play a practice round. I played nine holes in the program and didn't really do anything that week. And then the following week was a master's, which I had off. So hung out with everyone, Tata back yard, Parvie,

you know, had a keg in the backyard, did all that stuff. So that part was kind of everything you, yeah, you kind of plan for hope that it all works out, and that was really fun for me to have a lot of people involved. I don't think that was good, and then the reality of it is you've got to go back and play Mark Golf again. I didn't do that as well as it probably could have. I was like, I'm exempt and whatever. So he's definitely like a couple months of whatever kind of, you know, whatever golf I would say. I had a couple good events, but nothing great. And I wasn't working as hard as I probably could have at the time, but I was enjoying it. I had never had stress-free, like, not worrying about my standing on the tour. And you know, I had to exempt at that time. I was student fine.

So looking back, you know, at this point, I didn't finish top 70, at least on the FedEx Cup. So there's one of those things I think next time, enjoy it for whatever, a couple days or a week, and then kind of, you know, let's move up to the FedEx Cup. And let's get to tour championship, or let's one another one, you know, something like that.

It sounds like yeah, the one question I had was, you know, did the win change your expectations for yourself and it sounds like it kind of does change some expectations for yourself. Yeah, I think it's addicting. I want to win again. I want to win a bigger one. I want to win again. I want to win a bigger one. I want to win multiple times. It's, it's, there's no, you know, there's nothing else you can do to replicate what you're doing on Sunday afternoon when you're trying to win a golf tournament. Like that's, that's like a crazy,

adrenaline junkie stuff that you just want to do again and again and again. So I want to do that. You know, I bought, I want to play out here for a long. So I want to do that. You know, I want. I want to play out here for a long time. I think I can. I think I have the game to do it to be a steady solid player out here for a long time. So I would I would I guess I just crave getting I right now. And I'm pushing too hard. I think on Thursday, Friday's get kind of in the lead

on Saturday Sunday to have that feeling. Need to just chill out and play golf and let it happen type of a thing. Well, that's one thing, too. How do you manage expectations, or balance expectations versus goals, kind of what I'm getting at, it's like, how do you channel setting high enough goals for yourself

that aren't too far ahead of what you've accomplished, right? Because then if you are, if you don't set goal high enough goals for yourself that aren't too far ahead of what you accomplish, right? Because then if you don't set goal high enough, if you say I want to win another event again, and then you get up in the top five of a major at some point, you're going to feel uncomfortable, but that's going to be even more uncomfortable because you feel like you're out of your gourd, you're out of what you would even expect for yourself. So yet at the same time, you don't want to set your sights too high and feel like you're out of your gourd, you're out of what you would even expect for yourself. So yet at the same time, you don't want to set your sites too high and feel like you're failing at all times. How do you balance?

Right. I'm not great at setting goals, I guess. I should probably be better about that. I mean, kind of going back to your point of the major day. I was in the top 10 for sure of PJ going into the back night on Saturday. And I played well there at Harding Park. 10 for sure of PJ going into the back nine on Saturday. Yeah. And I

Yeah, I played well there. Harding Park. I was kind of around and this one at QY was playing really well on Saturday. And disappeared off the leaderboard quickly. And then I played great again on the front nine on Sunday and then disappeared again. So it was one of those things like it's a different feeling for sure. I think it's just under, you know, it's kind of a hard

balancer for to me that I'm trying to figure out of like, not to push, just play golf, just do what I've been doing type of thing instead of looking at the leaderboard and realizing where I'm at what I'm doing at times. So as far as the goal stuff, like I, I guess it's easier. I'm not like, oh, you know, obviously, I want to make it to East Lake. I want to get to 15 the'm not like, oh, you know, obviously, I want to make it to East Lake. I want to get top 15 of the world. Those are two huge perks that kind of take care of the year after and, you know, maybe a couple years down the line. So,

those are kind of simple goals I have. And I think they're very attainable and anything beyond that is fun, I guess, or just trying to have fun with it. You mentioned Gino there, you know, talking about, you know, celebrating that win with him and your wife there. I don't know if I knew the story or that was shared really shortly after that about the letter he wrote you about coming, coming to work for you and how that happened. I wonder if you could just tell that story here on the podcast. Yeah. podcast. Yeah, it was so I was playing P.D. tour Canada in the summer of 14 and I had actually, I've known Geno since we were kids growing up, but I'd actually live with them right when I turned pro for like six months. In my town, my dad and I didn't get along for a bit. I was a,

I was a, I was being an idiot son and whatever. I was kind of, so I moved in with, you know, he took me in, basically lived on his couch or his spare room. And did that for our super super close, but then I started playing at golf and he didn't like his just job. But as soon as I won two of the first three in Canada and apparently he had pinned this email to me about how we wanted to do this thing.

He wanted to caddy, you know, he didn't want to just jump on when I got on the PJ tour. He kind of always believed in me. And so the next day after I had finished number one on the order of merit up there to gain full corn firt to his status, he sent me an email. And I kind of blew it off like originally because he had this whole plan of like buying a Honda Civic, modifying it to where he'd live in it, drive across the country. He had this whole deal like because he knew the money was going to be tied out there. I think he had just had his kit. Did you just have Hudson? So Hudson, his first kit is like four months old, five months old when he writes this. And I'm like, what do you, you can't do this?

Like there's no money out there. So we chatted about it for a while, talk to Holly. She's like, hey, I think he'd be happier doing this. He wants to give it a shot. I was like, okay. So we did it. I think the first year on corn fairy, he made like $200 profit maybe. Luckily his wife kept him floated home. And then the next year, like we got our card,

but we didn't make hardly any money. He didn't make any money. So here we are, start our middle of our 60 year on the PJ tour together for eight, I guess. So he's always believed in me more than I believed in myself at times. And he really is like my life, Catti. He takes care of so much crap for me.

Make sure I don't get too much trouble. And I'm so lucky to have a guy like him by my side. And it's not, you know, there's so many guys, Katty, it's just for business. You just pay this guy to carry your stuff, take care of all the course stuff. And I'm very lucky that I get to share this, you know, kind of awesome life we're living.

And we get to do it together. I don't know if we need to have him leave the room so you can tell us all the all the things you wouldn't say if he was in the room with. Well, someone I want to ask you about you, you know, you've talked about, I think to golf, I just about some of this stuff. We're trying to get everyone's possible perspective on I would say in the golf media world, it feels like there are changing times. I don't know if that's safe to call it. Just the shift, there is a shift going on in some way in the golf media world, it feels like there are changing times. I don't know if that's safe to call it, just the shift, there is a shift going on

in some way in professional golf. What, how that's gonna shape out, what that's gonna end up looking like is still very much in question, but there's threats of other leagues, rumors, but does it feel the same way out on the PGA tour or are people making too much noise about it? Every time I talk to some of you guys,

it seems like you guys are as confused as we are as to what's going on. So I want your what your stance is on that. I think we're all pretty much as confused as you are. There's got to be what, 10 or 15 guys are talking to, maybe 20 guys are actually talking to about getting over there and paying in money and X amount or being the team leaders. Like, I don't even know.

There's two leagues. Now there's one. And one is still two. No, there's. Like, I don't even know. There's two leagues. Now there's one and one is the team. There's still two. No, there's like two. I don't even know, like, but I think the only people actually going on are a couple of the agents who actually are talking and a couple of the top players and they're just kind of mumbling behind the scenes, I think, to each other about what to do.

The rest of us are like, oh, let's hope that the PTA tour is still strong and healthy so we can still have all of our goodies, you know, that we get out here. So It's always in discussion. It's always like, oh, did you hear this? Did you hear this? What'd you hear? But it's all just hearsay and it's all we don't really know what's going on and I Is I think competition is always good like it's only gonna make Product better one way or another. If you can complain about guys getting 40 million for the PIP stuff,

but it's going to keep the tour, the top guys around for the tour, it's going to do stuff and so be it. The simple answers play better, tweet more, Google search your name more, whatever you have to do to make that money. So I don't think I've never heard anyone really complain about it as far as that's concerned. But I think competition's good, and whatever comes out of it comes out of it.

But I'd, sounds like the tour is doing everything they can to keep everyone on this side. And so far so good, I guess. I don't know. Well, it's it's it's incredibly complicated one. And I think it's not it's not as simple as saying like, all right, you know, take that $40 million that they're handing out to tour the top guys, which is now going up to 50. You know, you got to invest that in the corn fairy or you got to do this. You got to do all that. It's like, no, like this is this is serving a very specific purpose. And we're critical of a lot

of the things the tour does. But that one makes a lot of sense. When you and Rory tie in a golf tournament, you get the same amount of money for it. And Rory, sorry to say this, probably puts a few more butts in the seats than you do. Yes. 100%. So it makes sense that there's some compensation for that. So it doesn't sound like you're as versed in like the premier

golf league, which was in a way going to be potentially, you know, the most recent iteration and proposal would be something that's a part of the PGA tour that PGA tour players would have equity in. And the top 48 guys would be playing in a separate league, almost of some kind. And I think you would be right right maybe on the cusp of being in that, but maybe one of the guys that would be just outside of that as well in terms of how would that affect me? Does that, would that, you know, can you see how something like that could benefit? Somebody that's outside of that 48 or do you think that every one outside of 48

is going to pay a price in that world? Do you have a strong opinion about it? Do you see what I'm getting at? Yeah, that's a super question. We've talked about that as well. I mean, I could be, you know, if I'm playing good golf, I could be on the verge of, you know, being whatever one of the four or five guys on one of those teams. And if there's guaranteed money and I'm guaranteed to be set for life and my kids for life, I'd have a hard time saying no to that as well. If it's guaranteed, like, everyone's it's dirty money, I think there's a lot of dirty

money everywhere. I mean, it's all... So PGL and Saudi are different things. Yeah, well, so if we're talking Saudi, so if we're talking strictly Saudi Arabia, super golf league, live golf, whatever this is. So let's ask that. You would strongly consider that if it meant setting up your family for life. If I was, if it set up my family for life,

I would definitely consider it. I mean, that's kind of what I'm trying to do out here on the PJ tour and, you know, I need another 10 or 15 years or whatever, but if they guarantee a contract out there and I would be like the bottom half of that field and they're guaranteeing enough, like I would have a hard time saying no. That'd be an interesting one.

You get booed for a couple weeks and then no one cares about you again. Like that's fine with me. I don't know. It's it's it's it's be it would be a lot tougher for the top guys who have a legacy in the game. We're going to be Hall of Famers who want to put their spot in the game. Like when I retired, no one's going to remember who I am, which is fine. I understand that. I'm not going to be in the Hall of Fame. I'm not going to be like this legacy player that a lot of these guys are. That'll be the top guys. So they have a bunch different decision to make. And they already have enough money to basically be set for life. So it kind of depends on how much they want to trace that more, which I understand. But on the kind of going back to your original question is if those top 48 or 50 guys leave,

that leaves me then in the top 50 of the next guys. And if the purses are still there, then that's pretty good deal for me too. Also, then I became one of those better players out here, week to week. That's a great deal as well. And you know, you would see, I think, a lot of guys emerging. Well, obviously, you would see a bunch of guys come up that you don't really hear

day to day, but it may be changed the mindset of a lot of guys as well as, oh, I'm one of the better players out here now. You know, some guys may be take off in their careers, changing that way as well. So, I don't know. It's super interesting to hear talk about because then there's rumors of what, 2023, 2024, that the fall season is going to matter or it's only going to matter for like half the guys for the FedEx Cup and I don't know, that weird stuff as well. So yeah, there's rumors that the fall might just become a sprint season of some kind or

like kind of thing. It's complicated. I feel like you know way more about this stuff than I do. It's all a big question mark though. Like there's nothing, you know, especially with the super golf league thing. It's like they talk to player A, and they say, I don't know, maybe, but they've had the conversation. They go to player B and say,

hey, player A is in. We already talked to him and player A didn't actually commit. It's almost like this. There's some distrust going on as well between some of the relationships. I think I had heard that in JT's podcast with you. He mentioned that. He's like, you go talk to another guy.

And he's like, no, I didn't say that. It's like, that's hard to do. I just heard two players have signed two pretty decent names. But I'm like, I'm sure. Maybe they did. But I've done believing it at this point. But so how would it, you know, how would it work for at this point but so how would it you know How would it work for you? I view how would it work for you like let's just talk about the Saudi international the Asian now

Asian tour event paying big appearance fees for a lot of guys Have you got an offer would if you got an offer would you go? How does getting an appearance fee offer work? Do you reach out to them they reach out to you? Are you involved in that at all? I'm not but I would certainly entertain the idea fee offer work. Do you reach out to them? Do they reach out to you? Are you involved in that at all? I'm not, but I would certainly entertain the idea. I know I think the minimum over there that I've heard is going as 500K to appear. That's a lot of money. Like, would I go do it for a week? Like, yeah, I mean, I certainly would. The bone-sci-in fight or whatever you guys want to, I mean I certainly would the bone saw in fight or whatever you guys want to I mean I understand completely why there is an argument of not to go do it and I completely understand it but I mean yeah it's dirty money is it grow I don't know I think the US is dirty money I think China is

dirty money I think there's 30 money all over the place so you just kind of wherever you want to drag your line is is whatever but you're gonna give me 500K at a flight of Saudi for weeks of going to play golf and probably gonna take it. And I imagine everyone on Twitter who says, oh, I wouldn't do that, I wouldn't do that well. But let's put 500K in front of you for an free flight and go play golf to make some more money over there.

You might go take it. But I don't know how you reach out. I haven't done any of that out. I haven't done any that obviously they haven't approached me You know, maybe if I win three more times this year then my price goes up and they'll entertain me but I Haven't approached I don't have no idea how it goes. I know that you can write the exemption It sounds like they granted it to those guys going over Yes, they have so with with conditions, you go have to add. Oh, that's right.

At some point, or kind of playing a vet, there's some kind of conditions that they're making them do. Right. It's a bad habit to have to play Pubble Beach the next year. Like, rough go. Man, you got to go hang out in a public for a week. So it's my favorite place on earth. So if they're going to make me go,

if I go play Saudi, they're going to make it like, tuples, and I'm definitely doing it. Well, I mean, I think it's slippery for the tour, though, too, of like, yeah, I mean, you lose. It's not just one week, also, like, you're budgeting in. You're probably not going back to back, you know, with that event. Maybe it's three weeks you're missing out on the PGA tour. And the more normalized that becomes the bat, that's not good for the PGA tour.

They're at, it seems like they're adding more and more players every year. That's not going for the marketability tour. They're at it seems like they're adding more and more players every year. That's not going for the marketability of the tour. So it's, it is a tough one, man. It's hard for like, you know, I appreciate the very straightforward answer there because it's hard for I, I, I get high in mighty in my chair, but I do not have an offer in front of me to do it. I can say confidently I don't think I would, but like, I've not been in that situation.

So, you know, and that, and that's what I get the sense that it's not, you know, guys just don't feel like it's their moral duty to take a stand on something like that, which I don't know how I feel about that, but I do appreciate your honesty. Yeah, I don't, it's super interesting. I don't, it's like I said, and maybe, but the other thing, we live in such a new cycle that is so short, right? And the amount of people that I would actually care and the little bubble of, you know, some people chirping at you every now and then about going and playing over there would be so little and so small, I think that it, if like, you know, if that's what you're worried about is the is a public eye of what they think about you, you know, or whatever. I think that would be so limited and so small and last such a short amount of time that it wouldn't really matter.

Yeah, like I said, for me, it's more the big names that decide to do it that have earned plenty. A lot, a lot, a lot of money that are doing it that I think is just the most frustrating as a golf fan. But anyways, that makes sense. I want to talk a little bit about you, you had a fun match that was played this past fall.

It got hyped pretty big, but I want to hear, you know, you had a, how did the pairing with Phil come about, you know, how did the match with you, you know, you and him against Keith Mitchell and Harry Higgs at the North and Trust come about. And really, I wanted to like, what the buildup was like, because I know that guy had to be texting you motivational quotes like weeks in advance. Yeah, it's kind of funny. I don't know exactly how it worked, but I saw Harry tweeted Phil and I'm pretty good buddies with Harry. And I, it was like midnight. Like I was drinking and I texted Harry and Phil and like his group

chat and I'm like, Hey, guys, I want to get on this match. And next thing I know I wake up with the morning and feels like, all right, me and you, Joel, Harry find a partner. And I was like, Whoa, it's kind of expecting to be on Harry's team because I always want to play against Phil and kind of, you know, I want him to talk crap to me. And, you know, I kind of want to be on that side of things. But then, you know, Keith loves playing for money and whatever. So they grabbed each other and all of a sudden, Phil's on my team. So we had, there was a couple of tax about you know Tows your game get like kind of like building us up like it was a bigger deal and

Obviously kind of all in fun and I I was scrambling around at multiple ATMs the morning of to try to grab all the cash has a cash How to be cash soon. You just pay on the spot. And Harry did thankfully nicely. So it was good. I was afraid of losing. But I would got so the first toll. I kind of.

Oh, Geno gave me a wrong number on the first toll. I had a per he lasered it with a bad number. So in that Harry made an input and on two, we both have like 40 feet and I'm right in front of Phil. So Phil hits it and he's like, all right, let's break that. We have 40 feet like up a tear that breaks three feet and I miss it by like six inches. He's like, dude, I told you didn't break that much.

And I'm like, Phil, if you think I'm not good from 40 feet, we got a problem today. So I was already like, okay, on three we hit it out there and he hits a bad drive. He hacks down. He's got like 50 yards for birdie. I had a good wedge in the four feet. Phil and Harry and Keith have like 10 12 footer for birdie. So I stuck it in there. Phil walks me down. It puts his arm around me. He walks me down on the green and goes Joel. You know, like, you know, let's let arm around me. It locks me down and the green and goes, Joel, you know, like, you know, let's, let's get

into these guys. We're not fucking losing today. Let's, let's, you know, we got to change your attitude right now. We got to get, you know, focus. Let's style this in and go, all right, you're going to put first because I'm away. I'm, you know, at least 50 yards away. You're going to put first, but do not put this unless you're guaranteed to make it. It's like a four footer that's like outside left edge downhill.

And I'm like, all right, well, I'm going to make it. It's like a four footer that's like outside left edge downhill. And I'm like, all right, well, I'm going to make it. So he like, he goes through the entire read. I'm like, isn't it just outside left? He's like, tell me his whole thing. I'm like, thankfully, I make the pot. And then I they make it on top. So we're still one down, but then feel like, you know, completely starts coaching me up on every shot.

Like to the moon, tell me on the greatest player alive. Tell me why we're gonna beat these guys. And then I went on an absolute run. I think I made seven or eight buries that day and he made an equal on the sixth hole from another fairway. And we kind of, we beat him up pretty good, but I couldn't believe how into the match he was.

I couldn't believe how much he was coaching me up. I couldn't believe like, it was kind of cool for me. I mean, growing up with Phil's like, you know, one of my incredible watch this guy throwing up. And now he's like putting his arm around me and tell me how great I am and how we're going to beat these guys. I was like, I didn't expect that, but it was pretty awesome. I was like that.

I feel like Phil as your partner is like that gif of Dreymon green pumping up Kevin Durant. Like that, that always goes around and hyping him up. That's what it feels like. Bill will turn a 10 handy cap into a scratch call for overnight. I assure you of that. And the way that he reads the greens,

we would come to the same kind of conclusion of a right-edge putt, but the way that he got there was a lot different than the way you and me get there, which is super interesting to me. But I was just super impressed overall with everything. there was a lot different than the way you and me get there, which is super interesting to me. But I was just super impressed overall with everything. Like he couldn't have been a better partner. He didn't play as best, but luckily those guys didn't either, and I kind of got hot that day. So

I could see how like what he took Keegan Bradley under his wing, like at the Ryder Cup or something. No, there's no, I mean Keegan would would win 19 majors to fill caddy form every week. I think it's just, it's amazing. And that was just a little fun game for him on a Tuesday. Like I can imagine like what it really is, you know, a Ryder Cup or something like that. It's the amount you're playing for comfortable, uncomfortable. Where's that line?

Does it? I had never played for that much in a day. I mean, I don't play for a ton, but I mean, I was I didn't want to lose. That's for sure. It wasn't like anything. I mean, it wasn't uncomfortable. It's like if you lose like you're, but I was like, this is this is a real golf. So for Phil, probably pennies, but for the rest of us, yeah, we really cared. I mean, I tried really hard. Typical. I mean, every Torpro answer is the same way. Like a putt that would involve you losing $10,000 makes you more nervous than a putt that would mean getting an extra 100,000 on the 18th green. 100%. Yeah, it's exactly what it is.

It would be coming out of my wallet, not just gaining less money from the two or a per se. And that's, I didn't really understand that until, because I'm like, you know, last whole just last week, I had like a 10 footer for birdie on 18 and Gina's like, if you make this, it's worth $5,000. And I was like, I don't care. Like just, let's just get out of here. And then I kind of got reading the putt and I'm like, this is for $5,000. Like, this is a lot of money. What are you doing? And I made it, luckily. And he was correct, like this is for $5,000. Like this is a lot of money. What are you doing?

And I made it, luckily, and he was correct. It was actually worth $5,000. So it was like those things, but if I could lose $5,000, if I don't make it, it's a complete, it's really scary. It shouldn't be, but it's different. It's completely different. So it's a lot of lunches at the ritz,

if you can make that actually. That's a lot of lunches at the Ritz if you get make that actually. That's a lot of lunches at the Ritz. That's for sure. Is that a normal 18th hole thing for Gino to tell you how much the Putsworth? If we're not, yeah, a lot of turns. I'll even ask him like, I'll be like, hey, like, what's this

worth? It's if you're not winning or if you're not really like, it's easy to break it down into money. And that's kind of like, hey, dude, if you can shoot 300 on this back nine, you're going to make an extra 30k. Like, oh, that's easy to break it down into money and that's kind of like, hey dude, if you can shoot three under on this back nine, you're gonna make an extra 30k. Like, oh, that's a lot of money. I should try to do that.

So if you think about it, it helps me kind of stay motivated for the last couple of holes or whatever it is. And I think really he's just being kind of selfish because he wants more money for himself. So I think that's really what it is, but he's somehow motivating me into making him more money for himself. So I think that's really what it is. But he's somehow motivating me into making him more money. What I don't really know my question is related to this, but you we we're we're

talking about, you know, the timing of getting this interview started and whatnot. And you're doing laundry. How often you got to do laundry out on the road. And what's that? Did you do it at the hotels? Do you have to go find a place? Yeah. What's that like? I actually do the laundry at home as well, most of the time, including my wife's stuff. So laundry's not a cute, you don't form it. It's what happens when you're on the mini tours

and you don't work and your wife works two jobs so you end up getting all the chores. And then when you become successful, you still, I get to do the dishes because that's what I started up doing. It's just those kinds of things. So, typically I run a house on the road. I'm big Airbnb guys, so I try to,

and that's easy just to throw in loads of laundry here there, but I typically pack enough. So this is, I've been in Hawaii for, wow, this is my 13th day, I guess. So, time to do laundry. I just went downstairs here at the Marriott through in a couple of loads a laundry and got them done. It'll get me through Monday to when it's like home

and good to go. If I'm looking at your numbers so far for this year, it's kind of a weird time period to look at numbers from the fall wrap around into early 2022 here, but numbers are looking really solid on the Stroke Skain Day to off the tee approach, putting all positive 49th overall in Stroke Skane total. Do you do look at those week to week? Because that's something like, you know, I know I'm kind of

hitting it good right now. I know it's going to look good. Do you how often do you evaluate that? And you know, what what looks like a real gain for you? Yeah, my driving has always been pretty good, even though in the shorter hitter. It's always been pretty high up there because I hit a lot of fairways and I hit driver when other guys They'll hit a hybrid or two wire into 150 marker hit driver down to 125 So that's where I gain my strokes Last week I could hit every fairway as hard as I could and it wouldn't matter because I just don't hit it far enough on a course

Like that, but I'm a course like this week at Sony's great because the guys will hit it to the dog like and I can maybe hit a driver That covers just a hair of it and goes a little bit further down there. So, I don't really care about my driving too much. I know it's effective, I guess. I was, there's a couple of other people out there who drew driving effectiveness and I was top 40 in that last year, I think which is pretty darn good. I always hit my irons pretty good.

I think it kind of depends on how smart I am. Sometimes I get a little aggressive with my irons and I end up making some bogies. But I don't worry about that stuff too much. I know if I'm hitting it good enough. The big thing I look at is putting, and I kind of figured something out at the end of last year. I changed my setup a little bit.

I had always, my previous five years out here, I've been outside the 150, I think, just really inconsistent. Strieky weeks, but super inconsistent, and I changed my setup going into the fall, and I've just decided I'm sticking really inconsistent. Strieky weeks, but super inconsistent and I changed my setup. Going into the fall and I've just decided I'm sticking with it. I'm not changing ever again. I'm just going to do the same couple things set up the same way. Do it over and over and over again. I threatened to change a couple times in the fall with Gina. I've been known to switch it up mid-round

and do some different things, but when I get to see that final number of like, you know, I think I was top 50 in the fall. Like that's positive side of putting for me as a huge deal. And if I can keep that going this year, I think it'll be a really good year. And so I'm just going to keep kind of doing what I do with that, not worry about it too much.

Just know that this is how I set up. This is my feel. I'm just going to do it over and over again. Instead of trying to change something. So I look at putting the most because I know I'm gonna hit it good enough most of the time to be just fine So if I can keep putting in the in the stroke, see and positive and it's be a pretty big year for me Where do those gains come from like what is the most important? I know every put's important blah blah blah But like is there a range or a specific, you know, area that's like, you know what, if I do this, well, I know I'm going to gain shots on the green.

Is that something you go through? Uh, well, I guess if you're looking at like it, I was horrible from eight to 15 feet. Like, that's like where you make a lot of birdie putts from. Um, you know, if I could just make one or two more of those like a week, even, that's a huge deal. So I was pretty bottom of the barrel there, and I think a lot of that is just my speed issue. I've cleaned up my lag speeding issues pretty well, but now it's matching, you know, if it's speed in its line, you kind of mirror those up and you could be reading

every pot correctly, but if your speed's off, one's a little hard, one's a little short, obviously it's not gonna go in the hole, and I think just seeing way more consistent of speed on shorter pots is kind of where I'm at right now. So 8 to 15 feet, make a couple more of those. It's a good par save, but I've always

been pretty solid inside of five feet. And so just a couple more of those birdie pots go in. I think I'll be in good shape. And that's kind of just where I'm focusing on right now. I don't know if I could ask him by asking this question the right way. But what have you, or what can you learn about putting on the PGA tour, where I'm coming from this, I remember Zach Blair saying something once. He was surprised when he got to tour level. How many puts from inside eight feet were not, did not leave the whole.

We're not outside the hole. Like, is there anything that's philosophy-wise on speed and break and marrying those two lines that you would say you've learned over the years that I was contributed to making more putts? I should probably have a better answer. Like maybe I'm not learning enough after five years. It's not a very good question.

I don't think. You see what I'm getting at. Like how do you learn to be a better putter? It's not just hours on the green. It's kind of what I'm getting. No, not at all. Yeah, I think a lot of it. Greenering number one.

And the thing out here is, and I'm talking to the veteran players, they have changed where they put the pins a lot in the last five years. They have the green books as well. And they'll go put them in a transition spot where it can, it'll be breaking to the hole and then the last foot or two straightens out. You know, it's not just on a 3% slope anymore,

like you used to be like a planer, easy three, these are, they're putting them in transition spots, which makes it a lot tougher to put from or two. And that's something that I don't think is talked about enough. If you just give us a straight two or three percent slope, that's super easy. We know it's just a consistent break across, and you know, from 10 feet,

it's gonna break six inches, and that's simple. When they start doing double breakers around the hole, they put them on crowns, they put them on lower flat spots, that's what they're doing now, they're putting them in a little different spots that make it a little more difficult. And I think that's why you've seen the putting numbers actually go down the last three or four years,

just slightly, but that's why you've seen them go down here. Huh, I never thought of that. Yeah, so it's, and you can really, when you have a green book, you can look, you can just, they put them on the transition spots, which totally make, and if there's Bermuda grass, they stick them right where it changes as well, which is obviously smart of them.

Is that, so that makes me think that green's books are maybe as important as a lot of people think they are. I've heard some theories that say, like, they shouldn't be banned, and this whole thing is kind of a weird thing of the process now of gathering information is super weird. Probably really hard for caddies. What's your stance on the greens books? I'm glad they're not around anymore.

I used one as much as anybody and probably too much. I'd bury my face in there. But every time I've played well or put it, my best putting events without a greens book. I mean, Dominican didn't have a greens book. I won. I've played well in Mexico. They don't have greens books down there. So it's, and I don't use them really on pole greens out west.

Like I know what I'm doing out there. Bint greens. So I'm glad they're gone. I think green reading is a skill. I think you can get better at it. I think you can use the end point if you want. There's certain ways you can do it, but you can definitely practice your green reading

and you get better at it. And I think it's a skill. So there doesn't need books for it. I don't think it's really going to speed up play that much. From 40 feet, it's easy just to look in your book and just be like, it's probably about two or three feet out left and just hit it that way with proper speed and it'll go around the hole and you can get out of there. Instead of walking around a bit more, guys are probably going to call on their caddy a little

bit more. So I don't think it's going to speed up play, but I also don't think you're going to see anyone make or miss more Puts because of it either. I mean, when we play every day at home, we don't have a Greens book. Everyone Puts just fine on our day-to-day stuff. I mean, you know, you play with plenty of pros.

They probably don't use a Greens book when you play with them and they put just fine. So I don't think it's going to be a huge difference, but I can see why they did it. It's not a great look when we have our heads buried under books all the time, but I don't think it's going to change anything. Do you think anyone's going to be,

have you talked to anyone about the process now of trying to maybe learn greens yet not being able to write any of that in their books? Is anybody talking about that out there? I've heard a lot more people have taken A& Point express classes in the off season. Plenty of caddies are out there doing that. I know that much.

There was quite a bit of discussion amongst a couple players the last week of trying to figure out what they can put in their book and what they can't. You can probably guess who that one main player was last week. I mean, I would what name is you? What? It's unbelievable how much like every time you saw me just chatting with rules officials about what he can have in his book, what he can't.

Given that, I don't know his putting stats, but I talked to one guy who he played with. He's like, yeah, he's still one of the best punters. Like this guy's pricing so unbelievably good at putting that. Yeah, he hits it far, but he's ridiculously good at putting. And yeah, you can say it's a green books We're gonna find out this year because I don't really I mean he's gonna figure it out. Yeah, so there's I

I think that there'll be some people trying to maybe fudge some stuff for a little bit and try to get some extra lines in there Whatever it may be, but I don't think it's really gonna matter too much You still have to hit a pot from, like, I could put a tee down, you know, until exactly this is, it's a roll of ball, 12 inches past the hole, you have to aim at this tee from 10 feet. Still got to do it. Yep. Yep.

So last question, we'll get you out of here on this. What is, what's going on in the foodie world with your wife's blog? Yeah, my wife's blog travel eats and treats on Instagram. She... Give her a right club. Feed her right club today! That's better than most. How about in?

That is better than most. Better than most.