No Laying Up - Golf Podcast - NLU Podcast, Episode 520: Netflix Producers Chad Mumm and Paul Martin

Episode Date: February 9, 2022

The producers of the upcoming Netflix golf series, Chad Mumm and Paul Martin, join Soly to detail their plans for the show and how they've secured the participation of players and a variety of organizations in the game including all four major championships. We also get into their backgrounds and lessons learned from crafting the Formula One Netflix series "Drive to Survive". Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

I'm going to be the right club today. Yes! That is better than most. How about him? That is better than most. Better than most. get into how it's just not, not just PGA Tour. I struggle to come up with a title for this episode. We get into both their backgrounds. They explain how this project came along. And basically through every question I had at them in terms of the upcoming Netflix series,

which I know we've heard a lot about and talked a lot about and excited to see. So before we do get going to question, I struggle to answer myself is why do golfers usually play a blade putter? Is it the way it feels or looks? It might just be they see pros on TV playing one thing. Maybe hey, I should be playing that same one too.

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white hot insert. The TriHot 5K is truly a blade unlike any other. See the TriHot lineup from number one putter on tour at Odyssey golf dot com. Without any further delay, let's throw it to Paul and Chad. Well, let's start with some backgrounds for listeners. Chad, why don't we start with you? I know you're the golf guy, Paul, maybe not the biggest golf background, but I'm very curious to cover that ground, but Chad, let's start with you. I mean, how far back do you want to go, Chris? Well, I mean, people want to know who's, if you know, who's making the series, if you're a golf fan, which it'll it'll stick out from the first

Five minutes of an episode if you're not a if you know, it's not being run by golf fans But I know that's not the case. So tell us that still. Yeah, I mean, I started playing golf in In a small town actually not too far from Baghdad on the panhandle of Florida a nice bill and Yeah, I started playing when I was six played I played a ton of junior golf, played high school golf in Georgia, learned that wasn't gonna be a way to make a living when I played in high school state championships against Brian Harmon and played best round of my life and lost by like 10 strokes.

You know, it was like not even close. After one round, by the way, this is like, yeah, there was no chance. But yeah, I'd played golf my whole life, moved to New York, so I lived in New York City. So, you know, it would take the subway with my golf bag on my back out to Penn Station and take that soldier out to Beth Page and spend a whole Saturday out there and then, you know, ride back on the train, back into the city.

So I'm a golf guy, you could say. But my background is, you know, I've been a part of Ox media since we started a company. I started our studio almost seven years ago now. So I live in LA. We produce a ton of nonfiction programming, television shows, things like that, and have been working on this one for a little over three years. And we are here at the farmers, and it's like our third shoot day. So it is like a dream come true to finally see it out there in the world. And here we are talking to you. What about you Paul? Will you want my golf background or my... Just the whole story. Why are you here? Why are you talking to us today? I mean listen I think first and foremost I'm a massive sports fan. I love

sport. I love to be obsessed with sports and sports at the elite level. And I, you know, I just play all sports as a kid, mainly football soccer, cricket, which is what I like to say I'm a bad golfer, which is if you could crick it, a lot of it is like, I was really good at cover drives, which means you kind of open up your body, so I mean, I just got a massive slice when I go, which I cannot ever end off. Doesn't matter what anyone tells me,

it's not how many YouTube videos I want, I just cannot get rid of. Doesn't matter what anyone tells me, it's not how many YouTube videos I watch, I just cannot get rid of it. And so I just clubs went into being about 20 years ago, couldn't even look at them for 20 years until this show came along. And it's been great because it's sort of, I used to watch a lot of golf over the years. And I'm not joking when I say that,

I used to love Nick Fowler, I used to love Nick Fowler, I used to love Nick Fowler, you know, great Norman, you know, watched the rider car, you know, all the time. And I was really, you know, thinking about it the other day. And I did used to watch a lot of golf. And then, when for a period, a long period where I didn't. And what's been great about this show is just to be able to sort of re-engage with golf again and get to know, you know, the Brooks Cup, cause the Column of Maracalas, you know, the Justin Thomas' all that kind of stuff. And realize it, you know, actually golf's a little bit sexier, a little bit cooler, and a little

bit more interesting than perhaps it was 20 years ago. So it's been great. I'm really enjoying it, loving me in here, been to a couple of tournaments kind of previous. And it's just been, you know, for me, it's just a dream to kind of sit and watch these guys. And I don't know why it's a surprise, but it's a surprise how good professional golfers are at golf. You know, that's so good. TV doesn't do them jobst justice. So every I've done this, I do this for a living. I go to a tournament, I come home and I'm like, guys, I don't know how to say this, but like my takeaway is these guys are really freaking good. Like I wish I had a more creative way to say that,

but it's very real. But so tell us, you know, for the listeners, you know, we've obviously been huge fans of drive to survive. And guy I've gotten into F1 in large part, thanks to that series. So tell listeners kind of your experience with that, what it was like, what that series is, if people somehow don't know what it is to this point

and how that vision kind of matches up well with golf. You know, that's sort of a long but kind of short history. Myself and my business partner is a guy called James Gay-Reece. And back in the day, he made a film called Santa about her and Santa, which was sort of the seminal, spools dark, that kind of kickstarted really, you know, I think without Senna, there'd be no ESPN, so if a 30s, it sort of just gave rise to that as a genre, really.

And we were, so we had a little background in kind of Formula One, but we weren't particularly active in it, we had a chance meeting with someone at Red Bull, Red Bull, like, look, we really want to do a season with Red Bull, but we can't get it past Bernie Echelston. Would you guys kind of try and help us? And we were like, sure. And it was just at the point that Bernie was exiting and Liberty Media came in. And then we went in and met those guys and they were like, look, frankly our audiences get an old and smaller every year and we need to get this sport on a platform and they didn't really have any idea what the show was, they just knew that they needed to somehow find a way to get this sport in front of a newer, younger, sexier audience. So,

they ended up doing a deal with Netflix. We had a relationship with Netflix and with Formula One. It brought us into producer. And we didn't really have an idea of what the show was, was really going to be until we were in the thick of it and we were kind of making it. And the more time you spend in a Formula One Pad, you realize that there's a racing that goes on on the track and then in the Pad, and in the team hospitalities and in the garages, there's a whole soap opera going on.

You know, there's a whole soap opera of Toto Wolf and Christian Horner and Cyril Bitborn and these guys are an ill-poster and a maneuvering and trying to stab each other in the back and trying to poke drivers and bring it in drivers and get rid of drivers. And it was just like, so it became, we were suddenly like this game was

thrown for race cars here. They're really is. And that's kind of how the show evolved, because we knew that we couldn't make a show about who won every race, because that just becomes a highlight to you when everyone knows about it. And so we had to do something kind of different and point the cameras somewhere else. And the sort of the format of that show

really kind of evolved out of just being on the ground and beating that well. And I think this show will be the same, you know. We were at the point where everyone's kind of used drive to survive as a way in, and when we spoke into the players, it's been a really good reference point to say, our end goal is to do drive to survive for golf. But that doesn't mean that we're going to do everything that we do on forming a one and just drop it onto a golf know, onto a golf course,

because they're different athletes, it's a different game, you know, to completely different sets of rules and all that stuff. So honestly, we're here figuring out the show, you know, that's that's to beauty of these things, you know, you trust that in a least sport, there's enough drama, there's enough kind of emotion, there's enough states in it anyway, that if you spend enough time in there and you ask the right questions and you're in the right areas, the show kind of emerged and I think that's the great thing about doing these shows. There's no, we haven't got a format where we're like, right, we need to get changed here at this tournament and we need to get Ricky F're like, right, we need to get changed here at this tournament and there's a third and we need to get Ricky Fowler here

and then we need to get Brooks here. It's really like we're here, we're immersed in ourselves in there, we're talking to the players, we're figuring out what it's about and hopefully the end of it will come a great show. And I think it will, you know, I think all the ingredients are that. Chad, maybe this one's for you. I'm curious to kind of see, you know,

and knowing you and hearing hearing your guys previous interviews, the authenticity question of it is almost a prerequisite, right? I think a lot of people are wary, fans of golf are wary of the PGA tour that, you know, state-run media kind of have controlled things in the past. I've heard you on other interviews, particularly the shotgun start saying, there's a side of professional golf that you're a story within professional golf that you want to tell. And I'm curious to hear from you, what do you think? What do you think fans maybe don't know about professional golf? Or what do you think is the story about either this, these events or these guys

lives that are particularly interesting to you and you think will make for good content? Yeah, I mean, it's a great question, Sally. Like I think, you know, people, a core golf fan is like, get and understand that this is like a traveling circus. But I don't know if general sports fans really understand that golf is, you know, really the ultimate meritocracy

in sports. There's no guaranteed contracts. There's no guaranteed money. You know, there's, there's players who are paying their own way to be here. If they don't make the cut. They're slamming their trunk. They still have to pay for their team. They paid for their travel.

Like, there's nothing really guaranteed. And as we've gotten into talking to the players, they all have a different path to get out there. You know, it's like, zander's path so different from JT's path. And in fact, you know, like, it's just striking how, how different. And they all have, it takes like a drive that, you know, that to be that elite level, they all have some version of a chip on their shoulder

about that it created for themselves to like, to drive them to do it, you know, weekend and week out. But, you know, you've been out there at these tournaments and you've just seen it, it is a crazy traveling circus. And traveling circus is like that. There's like little details that, you know, are surprising to people. And I think people are unexpected to cameras in the broadcast

You know they're here at farmers. There's a lot of beautiful scenery. There's whales Herglyres. I don't know if you knew that but there's not here But we are more interested in like the you know the the sea of equipment trucks and the crazy characters in there And like what it's what it's like interacting you know before around after around how do you get yourself ready, how do you go out there and play. And I think that the fact that like these guys are ultimately still playing for their living weekend and week out, it's really interesting. And golf is like one of the few sportswear, there's only one winner, you know, there's no team, it's not a one-on-one sport, like tennis or like other sports.

And so it just, it truly comes down to like, you know, and these guys all hit it great. And so it's like what's going on in between their years? What's going on in their lives? How does that affect the success off the golf course, on the golf course? It's just a fascinating universe. And you know, I'm a, I'm a golf sicko, I think is what Brendan Borath called me.

And like, so I love this stuff, and I'd listen to your podcast forever, and I, you know, I can consume everything. So it's like, you know, I am a fan, and it's awesome that I get to help bring this thing to life. But the storytelling, just even in our, we just got started. We've been working with the players.

I've been working with them to put it all together for the last year or so. But just like really sitting them down for the first time at the hero and the Bahamas and even my kind of cynicism as a fan, they surpassed that in the first second, like just how ready and willing they were for something like this.

Where we just said to them, like at the end of this, we want you to watch it and we want you to feel like you guys got it. Like that's what my life is like. And so that's our kind of guiding mission. And as Paul said, like you've got the benefit of, we can look back, like We're shooting the entire season. We're going to start editing it later.

We know what's going to happen. We come back and look at how we shape those stories and really tell the story of this year. I think it's going to be super exciting. We've gotten so much already that just the fan in me is like, oh my god, this is better than I even expected right out of the gate And you know, we're just like three days into it really This was probably, you know, based on your answers probably way too early in this process to ask a question like this

But you know, maybe you know as you're putting together a mission statement and whatnot you have answered it But who is who is the target audience for this show? Is it you know hardcore golf fans? Is it you know casual golf fans non-existent golf fans? Is it for all three? And how does that decision affect how you guys would shoot or edit the series? I mean, it's definitely not for me. I think we want to make a show. I mean, Netflix is an enormous global platform. So we have a huge opportunity to just do dramatic and fun storytelling that's just entertaining for like, you know,

250 million plus households all over the world and not all those people like watch golf every week. You know, maybe they watched the Masters, but we want this show to be for everybody. Core golf fans to show it to their friends who may have never thought about the sport in this way. You know, maybe they're football fans or whatever. And just say to no, let's watch this together and create new fans for the sport. That's who it's for. I think anybody who's a fan of real life stakes and getting inside a professional world like this, that you don't get to see and see a side of it, that you've never get to see on

a broadcast, that's who it's for. Fans have great stories, really. I want you to say Paul. I would agree. I think, you know, I think it's for everyone. And I think that, you know, the hard-core gold fan is probably going to be pretty cynical about this endeavor. No, no, no, I think they'll love it, you know, because it was the same formula one. You know, when we did that, the hard-core formula one nerds, I mean, still now, they give us a hard time over, hey, but you had the wrong time on this bit, and you're like, guys, it's storytelling. But if you sit them down, they absorb it, because it's like,

we're taking them into a world that they love, and that they're passionate about, and they're seeing another side of it, and they can't help but feed on that and you know and we don't you know we're not making this show to ignore them. We want them to we want the golf you know the avid golfant to love this show as much as somebody that it's never thought of picking up a club or watching golf or kind of TV because it'll be about the characters. I think the golf fan will see another side of these guys for sure. There will be one or two characters you'll go, wow, I never thought he was going to be like that. I never thought he did that. I never, wow, you see that guy's house. Just all things like that.

It is for everyone and that feels like a massive kind of cop out to say that. So, you know, it is for everyone and that feels like a massive kind of cop out to say that. But you have to do that when you make things for Netflix, you know, you can't afford to go like, we're just going to make this for X, Y and Z. Netflix is such a broad platform that you have to make the broadest show that you can. No, that makes total sense. And I think what you do have working in your favor too is hardcore golf fans are ready for a look into this that is not produced by the PGA tour. I mean, there's just a sports league is not necessarily against it, just a totally different ball game for independent content creators versus a sports league creating content. I think, you know, you guys do have that work in your favor and Paul, so I mentioned

this, I am a drive to survive convert. I had never watched a Formula One race. I didn't know who Louis Hamilton was before drive to survive. And now I'm watching every single race. And I have some thoughts kind of as to how those things have merged. And I think some of the questions I have in relation to that are maybe outside the scope of this particular project. But I'm curious in your mind, what made drive to survive work? Why is Formula One? I refuse to believe that Formula One has gone, you know, the ratings have gone parabolic. It's not strictly because of Drive to Survive, but it seems to be an approach that they have made.

And I'm curious, and you're, I'm sure I'll have some follow-ups after that. But in your mind, what makes it work? What has made their recent run happen? Honestly, I have no idea. But yet, newly, like, we made that show the first season. It was the hardest show, hardest thing we've ever done. Like navigating the teams, just finding the right tone. Everything about that show was difficult.

And we, I remember we finished it. And we always have this crazy schedule where, you know, the last race of the season is like the first week of December and our hard lock for Netflix is like the Friday before Christmas, whatever that Friday is. So it's like December is a complete right off where you were just, and that first year we were in these edit suites and we were doing it, we lost all perspective over, is this any good? Do I care if it's any good?

No, I just want to get it done. I just want to get done on it. And so we made the show and we went away and we came back after Christmas and we were posting it, doing all the kind of the sound and you know the mix and all that stuff and then we kind of sat down watching it. Like okay, this is pretty good actually, this is all right. But you. But there's no secret formula. We go into it every year and we're like, can we pull this off again? Can we make a season that's better?

We don't have a kind of a tried and tested formula. We sort of, I think it goes back to that thing of believing that these worlds are interesting enough. And if you find the right stories, and if you find the title of stories that people feel like they can relate to, for whatever reason, because you feel like Pierre Gazzley, got five from his job,

oh, I once got five from my job, oh, I really like Pierre Gazzley now. It could be as simple as that, but for whatever reason, that show has just resonated with people above and beyond what we expected it to, what for me, what I'm not expected it to. And I think it partly goes to, you know, all sport, you know, athletes have just become, you know, manufactured versions of themselves, whether by the league, by sponsors, by teams, whatever

that is. And I get that, and I understand why it works like that. But I think for these shows, because we're coming in from a completely different angle, athletes feel like they can be themselves a little bit more. And I think that audience is just relate to that. And I think they will on the golf show, because I think they, you know, came into it. You know, you may it, Colin Markauer is this, but I promise you, having, you know, sat down with him for a couple of hours and spoke to him, you're like, I'm just shit, I didn't expect Colin Markauer to be cool, interesting, you know, all those kind of things and people are going to love it.

You know, and so I think it's that, I think it just is, it's pulling the veil enough to make them relatable because the way they come across because of all the demands on them, sometimes people just see them as robots and they think that they walk up to, they're getting that race car and they've got nothing going on in their lives

and they've got no problems and, you know, and oh, why didn't you win that race, you know, well, because, you know, I've got this sword hang over me and I might lose my job and I might, you know, my best because, you know, I've got this sword hang over me and I might use my job and I might, you know, my best friend just died in a race. And for golf it's the same, you know, you see them walk up to the verse saying you think, you know, they've got no problems in their lives, they've got nothing going on, you know, and I'm worrying about, you know, they're left the eye and on in the hotel room or whatever it is, but they do, you know, in the same way as we do.

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Back to the podcast. Well, what is, you know, the process for shooting something like Drive to Survive and how will that translate to the process for something like this? I think some of the things you have working in your benefit on driver's survive is it's 20 drivers, you know, you know exactly who the fixed field are. PGA tours a different amount of drivers, you know, different amount of players every week. And I know you have a list of guys that you're, you're focusing and honing in on. But are you, I heard you mentioned something about this earlier and it doesn't sound like

it's the case. But are you following particular players at particular events? Have you sketched out? This is the Justin Thomas episode or is it going to be following Justin Thomas throughout the course of a year and how do you marry that up with well we follow Justin Thomas at farmers but he won blah blah blah event that I mean that is a challenge in golf story telling for anyone. How are you guys handling that. How does what you know your experience with that show translate to that. you know your experience with that show translate to that. Yeah, I think it definitely won't be episode one's adjusting Thomas episode two's the Brooks episode. I think we want to create this, you know, we're going to create this kind of marvel superhero universe where, you know, they all kind of exist in this kind of ecosystem and and over the course of an episode, you know, Spider-Man or coming to the fore or Iron Man or coming

to the fore, but you can still see it all in the background. And who wins the tournament is largely irrelevant to our story telling. You know, the goal is always going to be to pay off to the story telling. It's not going to be the main driver of the story telling. So, you know, we've got the luxury of time and of hindsight. And if we're not in the right place at the right time, we can make it look like we were in the right place at the right time. You know, and we do a lot of that, we're forming a lot. Everyone's like, oh my God, I can't believe you were in that garage and you're like, well, it's the only thing that it does. Yeah, yeah. We knew a guy, we had a friend of a friend that was in the garage. So, you know, these shirts are like massive jigsaw puzzles.

And you sort of have a vague, cloudy picture of what that end picture is gonna look like. And it's just about over the year, just getting enough pieces that you can assemble that picture at the end. And what we wanted to do with our cast was really like put those pieces out there where we could take that story and sort of the full, you know, paint the full picture of like professional golf.

So it's, you know, we have obviously five of the top seven players in the world. We've got like superstars. We also have like rookies like Mito Pereira. We've got, you know, we've got like Harry Higgs and Joel Damon and, you know, and Max Homa and people at like different levels. We've got Ian Polter and Bubba and Max Homa and people at different levels. We're going to be in Polter and Bubba, sort of in a different phase of their career. We really wanted to be able to paint that full picture of what it's like out there. I did not go Jima, playing Augusta National for the first time as one of the Amateurs

playing in the Masters. We'll be there for that, you know, and, and that is like a, it's a very different experience for him than it is for like, Dustin, you know, it's like a winner, you know, a champion. So like, I was really important to get that cast right. So we could be able to like, pull pieces when we need them, you know, and and go chase after the stories, you know, knowing that we had this group of guys that have opted in,

that have said yes, that are a part of the show, and at any point we can go to and build that relationship where they really invite us in. And some guys, as you would imagine, are really leaning in all the way, and the curtains wide open, and other guys, we don't have to open it that wide to really show more of who they are than you would expect. And I would say just like as a you know, as like we're already further and we've gotten more than I would have expected even at this point. And I'm super confident that we're going to have, you know, all of what we need from the guys up there. Did it take much convincing at, you know, either the PGA tour level or honestly, I wouldn't, he wasn't in my realm of even possibility that we'd be seeing a gust of national, the old core, all the, all the majors involved in this because it's not a, that

means it's not a PGA tour show. It is a story about a year in professional golf. So how, what was the convincing process like for that? I mean, what do you get the sense that, you know, having this blueprint like the drive to survive to put in front of somebody helps you get in the door and move those conversations along. No question. That was extremely helpful. You know, I think the history of the show, you know, it came about three years ago in January 2019, and I had a meeting with some of the tour execs. Actually, it was at a golf course, which was fitting. And we talked about this idea. And I'd see them every year and sort of pitched them on doing something like this.

And at the time, our comp was like hard knocks. You know, some really authentic real story telling and just kept saying how important it was for the NFL to let people see that relatively unfiltered and big golf, probably more than any other sport, like could benefit from that kind of. Especially as this new class of player came in and Tiger, see that relatively unfiltered and that golf probably more than any other sport could benefit from that kind of. Especially as this new class of player came in and Tiger, we were sure of you was going

to play again, obviously, we know what happened in 2019. But it was just always like never the right time. And then when Jay became a commissioner, kind of heard that maybe there were things for changing over there a little bit. They were going to open up the doors a little bit. So we played golf and the first T time off, I brought it up on the first T. It said maybe it's time to do it.

And by the time we finished 18 holes, we had sketched out what would basically become where we are now, which was what would it take to give us the ability to tell the story in a real way without that editorial control, to get the kind of trust from the tour, to just be able to like let someone else do that and how important that was to do it that way and what it meant.

And so it started with that and I mean honestly to the credit the tour like they within like two months they were in like fully in like we were ready to go and then and then we had to get players because obviously they can't make players do anything so I went to the Masters in 2019 great masters to go to. I wasn't there Sunday but I didn't like cry watching it at home with my like then three-year-old daughter and I still cry when I watch the replay on YouTube. You know we just I sat under the tree like basically and would like I had a list of agents and I had pictures them, and I would just go up to people and be like, I think that you're, you know,

face dancing or, glance young or, you know, Sam McDonough, and, you know, we started having these conversations. The tour was great, it just sort of making intros, but like, they weren't involved in the player conversation. They were not guiding those, they were not saying to players, you should do this, you shouldn't do this. They just, they got out of the way and let us build those relationships. And from the beginning, you know,

did not insert themselves in that process really anyway. And so, and this was like very early on, we hadn't set it up in Netflix yet, we were just building that consensus. So Ricky, we had a great meeting with Sam and Ricky's team at Wasserman and Ricky was the first player on board and then quickly after that Justin Thomas came aboard and then Cameron Champ and Tony Fina, so that was kind of our core crew. And then we started putting all of it together and then COVID happened. So it didn't make sense to like watch the show then

and we still were, so we kind of held off on pitching it wide. And then this year last I guess, came around. And we took it to Netflix and drive this ride was doing really well. And I hadn't met Paul and James yet. But, you know, Netflix really started to take interest. And it started to move along a lot faster at Netflix. And I give one of the execs there, Dan, to Stefano, a lot of credit

for really being the champion internally. He's a huge golf fan. He, you know, and all of a sudden, that started picking up the pace. And so, you know, for Netflix, it's like, we're going to do this. Like, we're going to do the ultimate version. So, so they said, look, if you can get, you know, the majors to sign up, sign up, then, you know, I think we're just going to happen. So then we did, like, it honestly was, it was surreal to, like, be on a Zoom call with, like, people from Augustine National. That was just, like, crazy. And it was like to be on a Zoom call with people from Augusta National. That was just crazy.

And it was like, I, you know, like, oh my God. Augusta National, and we're talking on Zoom, and I'm like, you know, LA, and here we go. But to their credit, like, we met individually with all the majors, the folks from all the majors, and Augusta was like the first to say yes, they got it right out of the gate and said, like, yeah, we get it, understand it.

You know, they had already met like Fox Debox and Paul and Paul and James had come aboard at that point, you know, once we had started to get more serious and that looks that started to pick up steam. We had a meeting and joined forces on it. And then, you know, and once Augusta said like, hey, we're in for this, the ball was started rolling a lot faster. And, you know, but all of them were, I mean, we're in for this. The ball started rolling a lot faster. But all of them were. I mean, there was no holdout.

I mean, I give it a lot of credit to the PGM America, to USGA, to the RNA. Nobody had to be convinced that this was a good idea for the game. And honestly, I know it's like this integral. Like, I get it. But the tour was willing to make it not a tour thing. And they saw that too. And I think that set a lot of spoke volumes without even having to pitch it.

No, no, this is golf. This is a year in golf. And we're going to do what's best for the show, not necessarily what's best for the tour, because we know that in success, if you do it right, and tell the right kind of story, it's going to be great for everybody. And so they got that from the jump. And so yeah, and then obviously the majors came on board. And we got so lucky with the draw being like St. Andrews for the open championship and Colin and the cast. So here's the defend chip champion golfer of the year. And it's like sort of surreal even thinking about it. And then even just know country club at Brookline like the France Swimette story I mean there's so much that people don't know that

story you know and it's like one of the best sports stories of all time and so other hills gonna be epic like they just you know the redesign makes that course is gonna be a beast and yeah we got a great year ahead of us so so yeah anyway so once the majors came on board you know that thing picked up the pace and and you know here we are like a few months later on board, you know, that thing picked up the pace and, and, you know, here we are, like a few months later, like on site, you know, with the cameras out, we got the movie cameras out here at Torrey Pies. Well, Paul, I think, you know, a couple of questions within this. One thing is I think that makes drivers survive great is the sound. Like it is, the sound is very immersive.

It is, you feel like, you know, it's, you know, sound. If it's, you know, transitions you use, just's, you know, sound, it's, you know, transitions you use just race cars are exciting. That makes it pretty easy to do. Golf doesn't have the same sounds, you know, to help, to help with that. But I'm curious, do you, will you have on course audio access? Will you be able to mic players up at all during the weeks of tournaments? And, and what does the production look like for a week of a tournament?

Is it Monday to Sunday? How many cameras? How many crew does that vary on tournaments? Are you going to be at all of them? What does that look like? I think it, you know, in terms of crew size, it's been a very autonomous, you know, it will depend on, you know, characters and stories and all that stuff. It has it doesn't drive to survive. You know, we, people always amazed at how few kind of crew we send to some of those races, you know, and it will be the same here.

Some will have a big crew of, you know, 14, 15 people. Some of it will be kind of three or four, you know, this, you can, you can forward to do it. You know, we get a lot of, we get a lot of access to, to what's been shot on the course, you know, the golf is, is pretty well covered and it's just about us kind of adding to the experience and I think, you know, I think sound will be an important part of this show as well. Again, it just goes back to that authenticity, it's about finding those authentic sounds and moments that lend themselves to kind of being dramatic, you know, it's not about and moments that lend themselves to kind of being dramatic. It's not about being constantly over-dramatic

and playing with sound effects and stuff like that. But when it warrants it, you want to go big, when the drama can take it, you want to go big with that kind of stuff. In terms of getting mics on players and caddies and stuff, we've already had mics on caddies here. So we're off to a great start. It's super interesting. We're always driven by when people say, well, you'll never be able to do that.

There's no way you're going to get people to do that. That sort of drives us on. We're like, OK, OK. And then six months later, that I can't believe you've got those guys to do that, and where those mics are, or do that. You know, because I think you go into it, and the players know what they're coming into, because there's that reference of drive to survive,

and they know that they've got to pull the curtain back a little bit. Otherwise, the show's not going to work, and we're not going to force anyone to do that. We're not going to position to force anyone to do that. As we're not going to force anyone to do that. We're not going to position to force anyone to do that. As we're not going to drive to survive, we've never forced Christian and Cyril to needle each other and Lauren Stroll to get upset about a rear wing in a car park.

It happens. It happens, and it will be the same here. If they let us in a little bit, which they are, the show's going to be great. Well, as I was going to say, you just, you just made my job easier. I'll just give you a bunch of things that I don't think you'll be able to do. One, get the guys to talk shit about each other. That, if you can get me that, I bet you can't do that here. Take that part. Because that's a get another thing that, like, the, the buy-in amongst Formula One for this, this, I don't want to say overly dramatic presentation, but they understand

the drama, but they understand the drama of it. They put the two team principles next to each other in a press conference, right? And that is, that is not the way golf operates. And I guess that, this question maybe is more for Chad. And I think my hesitation in this is like, I think the tour in a way sees this as a great way to bring in new fans. And I completely agree. I think there's a lot of things that they do regarding the presentation of their product that should and need to change if you want to retain those fans. When I flipped on my first Formula One race, I sat strap to that chair without commercial interruption and had announcers that were taking me through all the considerations of everything going on and it was

a great experience. And I don't consider this as well documented. I don't consider the professional golf viewing experience to be that great. Do you get the sense that this, you know, this is a, you know, something the tour is wants to be a part of and doing because they have this grand plan to evolve the way their product is presented. Is that question outside of the scale of this project? What I just curious your thoughts on that. I wish I had an answer. I don't.

I mean, it's not inside this scope of our conversations really at all. I think that they saw what drive to this scope of our conversations really at all. I think that they saw what Drive to Survive did for just the sport in general, like in terms of driving interest and deepening the connection that fans, the core fans had with the drivers, in our case, the players, and also expanding that audience and getting people who've never watched a race, maybe like yourself, to wake up super early and watch it. And I think like, if we do our jobs right,

people are gonna be like, is Amy answer playing this week? Like, oh, he's on TV, it's Thursday afternoon. Like, where is he? Where can I watch that? Because he's just so cool. And like that guy, I just connect with him. Like he loves tequila.

And he has Safari animals on his house. And it's just, you know, like, he's just cool. And I think that like we, that's the real opportunity. And but yeah, I mean, that other question about how golf is presented on TV. I mean, it's, you know, it's like not in the scope of our, you know, that's not our real responsibility. And I think, you know, what we want to do

is show golf in a way that you've never seen it before. And I think we have the benefit. We don't have to cover it live, you benefit. We don't have to cover it live. We don't have to have something to say about every single thing that happens on the course. And we were just like walking around the production area, actually, right before this interview. And it's mind-boggling.

It's terrifying. I walked into that truck. And it's almost at a heart attack. But we have the benefit of being able to look at stories and go in, you know, and if all the cameras are pointing in one way, we want to point somewhere else and we want to show you stuff that you're not going to see on the broadcast and, you know, hopefully maybe that stuff, you know, people love it and and and and and they reevaluate sort of how they want to, you know, retain that audience, but, you know, at the end of of the day, sports are exciting and they're dramatic and people care because the athletes care and it's like real and competition is just, is everything. And I think that we want to give people hooked on that. We want to give people hooked on that energy.

And I still think, I mean, I'm telling you, you could show that tiger's chip in the masters. Like when he made that ship on 16, I'm telling you, I can walk up to anybody on the street and show them that for the first time, and they're going to have a smile on their face. It's just like sports are electric in that way. And I think if we can sort of peel back the curtain on a side of it, you never understood or expect it in a world of golf that has so much predisposed like notions of what it's like, you know, especially if you're not a golf fan.

You think of professional golf, your mind goes to like, it's a rich person's sport. It's the Malcolm Gladwell article about Los Angeles Country Club. And these guys don't have those backgrounds. They work so hard to get here. And we think that if we can sort of subvert people's expectations about professional golf in the first five minutes, that was the first thing that we talked about. We sat down for dinner in LA when this idea about

teaming up and working together came up. And it was like, we have a chance to, in the first five minutes of the show, completely subvert your expectations. If you're coming in, you're sampling it, because you let you know it's from the people who make driving survive. And you've heard about you may you know, you may like books kept going You maybe you should DJ's life or you want to see it?

You know, we got five minutes to get you hooked You know, we will and it's because we're gonna be able to show golf in a way that's ever been shown before and you know We take that responsibility like pretty damn seriously. Yeah, I don't think I I think if we're successful with this show I think it will be It will be quite liberating for how the sport is broadcast as it was before me to one you know for me one Until drive to survive would never have thought about you know Mike and up good in turn on the pit war when having him as their pit Him as their pit by the law is like well Let's go to Horn and Rototo and I get that,

I completely understand why they did that. And I think what drives us a my did, for the guys, do the broadcasts there, it just liberated them and gave them more options where they're like, okay, the audience will engage with a good and so, or they will engage with an Esteban archive. Okay, it's okay now for us to feature them

a little bit more enough. And I think that, you know, if we're successful, hopefully that, you know, that will resonate with, with, you know, the broadcasters. You do a great job, you know? They do a different job to us, you know? The art story, tenons completely different, but I think it will hopefully liberate them to then go,

it's okay to focus on the guy, it's not going to make the cut. Enough of our audience want to see that, and they're interested in that. It doesn't have to be the lead group on a Friday or whatever it is. So I think hopefully in success, everyone will figure out that it's okay to deviate from those kind of lines. And take more risks. That's one thing about Formula One and Drive to Survive is it makes you care who finishes in fifth or sixth. That's something that I find missing in golf or making the cut even. It's not something that's heavily emphasized as much by the television and things like that. Yet if you have a chance to follow somebody

grinding for the cut, like that's a very real thing. I've had friends that I'm following out in events, watching them try to make the cut from two off the cut line is about as intense as you'll get watching golf. Yet you'd never see any of that stuff on television. So I do think it's right. Will you have access to tour footage, either like from current events or past events as a part of any of your storytelling?

Yeah, everything. Great. All their footage, broadcast calls, all that. Radio, everything. So a lot of names on there that, you know, we expected to see some that we definitely didn't expect to see a good mix. Some people though that we maybe would have hoped to have heard from that we don't see on the list. I'm just curious if it's an overarching reason why some guys like maybe Rory aren't involved. Phil Mickelson, Bryce and Tiger Woods, were you finding players that had content deals in place to be a little bit

prohibitive to getting them involved? Or did you come in across some guys that were not interested in being involved and wonder if you could speak to that process? Yeah, I mean, I think most of the guys understood what we were trying to do. It's our first year, so I get it. Like we still have to prove it. And, you know, we can talk a lot about how great the show is going to be and how great it's going to be for them and what it's going to do for the game and terms

of exposure. But, you know, the best evidence is going to be the show itself. And so, you know, there were some guys that we would love to get and they would always have a seat in the show if they want it. You know, there's nobody that we wouldn't say yes to. And we had a lot of great conversations with some of the players that you named and there's definitely real interest. And we keep telling them that the doors always open. So they can they can come aboard at any point. And we can, you know, make room for them and build the show. But it's not my business, why? They can't do it or can. We presented them with what it would look like if they did participate and walked them through what that access is.

And it's different from like golf media. Like we're telling a different kind of story. This is going to come out a long time after things happen and we'll have the benefit of hindsight. And you can see ARCs, right? Like, our story has to be relevant. The story of this tournament, the farmers insurance open in 2022, has to be interesting and relevant a year from now

when this thing comes out or whenever we release it. And so the stories just, by design, have to be character driven. And they have to show ARCs and people can have bad days because that means we have to see them on good days. And you get, you know, storytelling, you have to have those kind of ups and downs. And so, you know, we walk everyone through that, and we talked about, you know, the sound reality show, we're not showing up at your front door, the day you sign the agreement, walk in, and film you going to the grocery store, like, you know, we want you to invite us in. And like, the people who lead into it, the most are the, we want you to invite us in. And like the people who

lead into it the most are the ones who are going to get the most out of it. And that's been basically how we've approached everybody. And as you can see, like the list of guys that have said yes, it's an amazing group. And you know, we feel like we can do, you know, we can really show this world an authentic way with the guys that we have and the guys that, you know, you named on that list who aren't on it, Like the door is always open. They can they can come in at any point and we'd love to have them. Yeah, I mean, first season of Drive to Survive didn't have two of the biggest teams on that one. But all this questions for you.

I don't know, you know, exactly how much this relates to, you know, drive to survive and form in the one. But, you know, what did you feel watching the final form of the one race of the year? A lot of there was some criticism out there, even among scolfers, but you know, what did you feel watching the final formula one race of the year? A lot of there was some criticism out there, even amongst golfers, if you ask Roy McElroy, where he, you know, theorized that the entertainment value maybe had steered too far in terms of, you know, shoe horning in a final racing lap. And I know if you don't follow for me, the one, you may not be able to follow this. But the result, a lot of people had some issues with how the championship was decided. And it seemed like they may have been the most entertaining, but most entertaining, but maybe not the most fair way to do it.

Do you, what was your reaction to watching that final race? I just extraordinary, you know, it was, it was hard to know. At the time, it was hard to know what to think. Honestly, it was so, I wasn't in Abu Gaby. I was at home watching it. I thought it was a done that. I thought it was all over. And I suddenly heard my 12 year old son scream

from upstairs and ran to the TV and maps was in front. And I was like, what the hell, what the hell, and then the guys at the raise my phones blowing up. Like, oh my God. And so I think all of us were just in shock genuinely. I think everyone involved in it was just like, I don't know what happened, I don't know. I don't know.

I've been making that show for four years. I still don't know what rules are. That's for sure. So I didn't know whether it's in the rules, whether it was against rules, whatever. It's not going to get any easier with golf, trust me. Yeah, so it was hard to know what to think. I understand why Lewis and Mercedes felt hard done by equally, you know, I think that Max and Red Bull did

nothing wrong, you know, that they, and they were given the kind of victory, it's a damn hard episode to cut. We're still wrestling with that episode right now. You know, it's extraordinary. And I think it will, from a selfish point of view, I think it sets up, drives to season five for an amazing season, because he's not going to go away. His toe-toe feels as, you know,

as wronged now as he did then, rightly or wrongly. And, youly, and it will just ramp up Christian and Red Bull even more. So, from the producer in me is like, great. I just want to categorically say we had nothing to do with it whatsoever. I think on the front page of a English newspaper, I was like Netflix to blame for guys. If only we had that much. So yeah, I was at home in my house with my family, nothing to do with us whatsoever. That's exclusive.

We've never spoken about that before. And we've got to be agorically nothing to do with us. Well, I don't know if the experience on site so far this week changes the Sansa or you know what not, but maybe you can view it from what you've seen so far or just coming into it. What do you view your biggest biggest challenges being of creating a series like this? I think it's just, you know, it's just pretty quickly we're gonna have to start to drill down on story, you know,

really. And that's the, you know, and it's there and we've got a lot of options to kind of play with. And you know, there's a lot of tournaments to come, but you know, that it starts to creep up and you pretty quickly where you sort of have to start to make, you know, tough decisions about story and, you know, how we're landing land and all that stuff. That's going to be the biggest challenge. It's a big field of characters.

And my experience of doing these shows is suddenly, you think you've got all the time in the world and then suddenly you realise you're running out of time. And so you need to get get out of it pretty quickly. I think we've got a couple of events where we're still feeling our way and letting the players get used to us, we're getting used to kind of moving around, but pretty quickly we're gonna have to really take it to the next level and really start landing

on character and story and really getting that access that we need. Paul Paul what are some of the similarities and differences between forming the one drivers you've worked for and the PGA tour athletes you've worked with so far? They're all elite athletes just there's a reason that they're at the top of what they do. I don't know what it is but it just is whether it's a focus or a dedication to what they do or just that ability to shop everything else in their life off and really hone in on that one thing that they're really, really good at. And I think that's really the biggest similarity.

It's like, you know, it's that thing we said, you know, guess what? Formula One drivers are really good at driving race cars. Conflicts are really good at golf. And you know that that's what, as someone that played a lot sport, I sort of realized, oh, I like a bit of tennis, I like a bit of cricket. I love football, I think a bit of rugby. That was never gonna help me. I think you have to, you've got to pick one. And they all pretty much, all about the same age,

11 or 12, which is extraordinary to me. I'm 45 and I still don't know what I want to do in my life. So being 11 years old, going, this is the one thing that I want to do in my life. And I would say that 99% of all athletes I met have that mindset and make that switch. Let's say you're doing something pretty cool at age 45 in your life. Well, I guess I, I, I had a theory, a theoretical question that I was going to try to game out with you guys, but I think maybe we can, we can go back to your, uh, your drive to survive experience on this one. If you have a piece of content, an area content, a question, a clip or something

that you know is going to make someone mad, be it an agent, a player, you know, maybe it's key to your story. And that's why you would want to include it, but you know, it's going to make someone mad. How do you, how do you go about that? Do you warn, you know, a player or agent or a racer agent, you know, with drivers, survive to say, so just so you know, this is going to come out. So they're prepared for it. Do you post it and deal with it later? I, I constantly battle that with our show sometimes as well. Sub curious your approach to that. We, the honest answer is we, answer is we'll talk it through. If it's something that we really know,

like this is going to be super sensitive to them. I think you have a responsibility as a producer. If you're going to be bold enough to make those choices, that this absolutely has to be in our show for X, Y, and Z, then I think you have to kind of man up and go and look them in the eye and tell them why you've made that decision. And it'll always be stories.

Never because, hey, it's a salacious thing that we really wanna show you in a terrible life. So, never that, it's all about, well listen, we think this is really germane to your story and the narrative that we're trying to tell you. And you're probably not gonna like it, but this is why it's in there. And I would say that 90% of the time you get there with them and you make them understand. But I think it's the only way.

We're not producers that just kind of take the easy way out and kind of cut and run. If we've made that decision to put something in there and you want to question our decision, let's talk it out because there'll be a valid reason that we've done there. Sometimes we do get it wrong. Sometimes we'll go through that process and we'll talk and then we'll say, do you know what?

Actually you're right, we're trying to be a bit too smart, a bit too clever with that. And we'll maybe make kind of adjustments on it. So it's not, we never take it of like, it's in there. There's not, you know, if you feel strongly about it, let's, let's talk it through. Well, I know the golf media world is watching closely to see who the, who are the, who is, who's playing the journalist role on the golf side or the media role or whatever you, the will Bucks didn media role or whatever you the will bucks Then roll whatever you'd call it

Is that an audition? Sully no, no, I Listen, I could give you my reasons why I think it probably wouldn't I would not be at the top of the tors list for that But you know what's what could we expect there? I mean, you know what what's so cool about golf? It's an individual sport like in general across the whole across the whole industry. And there's all kinds of different journalist personalities. There's a bunch of new media of people like yourselves that have really changed the way that golf is covered. And in a real way, and introduced a whole new facet of journalism

to the sport, and what you guys do is super important. And there's younger writers out there doing the same thing, and what Andy and Brendan do on the shotgun start, Dylan to share, Dan Rappaport, folks like that, KVV, who's just on the podcast. And then there's some amazing other characters golf in general that brings these big individual characters And we've seen that with like golf coaches too, you know, we've had a lot of interaction now because this ecosystem You know it breeds some real unique individuals and whether that's Caddy's, you know, who are gonna be a huge huge part of the show That I don't think people expect like huge part of it You know in their stories that almost never get told like the the, you know, the, even like, you know,

on the agent side, like some of those are big characters and then you've got these journalists or these reporters and these personalities and the golf coaches, it's just, you know, it's a world of individuals that might not be able to exist in an environment like the NFL or like visually-based or like Formula One and that's what makes golf kind of fun and special.

Yeah, I mean we're at that stage at the moment of just figuring that stuff out. Who are the who are those voices that are going to kind of guide us through this world and all together in a way that's kind of interested and I think we're open to suggestions. It's the honest answer, you know, it's like you tell us, you're like, I'd really love to hear this guy's perspective on that and it's because it doesn't have to be on PGA message. It's authentic and it's long as it's warranted, it's always kind of be stood up. No one's saying you have to have this guy, this guy, this guy, it's kind of down to us. Yeah. Well, I think I would say after listening to you guys for about an hour now, I think your

biggest challenge is going to be cutting this thing down because as soon as you start talking about caddies and agents and all this stuff, I'm like, man, there is, I have known this, but there is a big story to tell, right? And so getting this into like digestible episodes that move along is going to be, it's going to be quite a challenge a good problem and challenge to have I think because there's plenty of great content to work with but we really appreciate you guys spending some time with us tell us about it we can't wait to watch it and I know the longer I keep you the longer it's going to take for this thing to come out so we're going to let you go on that but thanks for spending some time with the best luck with the project. Thanks so much. Thank you. Give it a big thumbs up. Be the right club today. Yes. That is better than most.

How about him? That is better than most. Better than most. Better than most.