No Laying Up - Golf Podcast - NLU Podcast, Episode 544: Bob Harig on Tiger and Phil

Episode Date: April 13, 2022

Veteran golf journalist Bob Harig joins Soly ahead of the release of his upcoming book Tiger and Phil - Golf's Most Fascinating Rivalry. Bob details his process for researching the book, his reaction to the current controversy surrounding Mickelson, and shares some great insights from his front row seat to the biggest moments in their careers.  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

I'm going to be the right club today. Yes. That is better than most. I'm not in. That is better than most. Better than most. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to the No Laying Up Podcast. Solid here. Got an awesome interview with you coming up here soon with Bob Herrick. He has written a book called Tiger and Fill.

You know what? I kind of figured we would do for some fill content that wasn't focused on the many, many occurrences of the last several months. A lot of us have a lot of great memories of Phil's career, coinciding with Tiger's career. Bob's book is great. It's called Tiger and Phil, you can order it wherever you get your books. We have a great conversation about what his experiences have been like with both the players over the years, the major championship experiences, the stories, the, it's great.

I really enjoyed talking with Bob. He's been around both of these guys for such a long period of time. It's great to just, you know, for somebody that hasn't really been that close to so many things that happened in the early 2000s and their amateur careers. It was great to learn that through the book and talk about it with Bob. No-ling up is proudly brought to you by our friends

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swing with confidence, hit more greens with precision pro golf. A quick heads up on this interview, we did record it before the masters, so if you hear anything that might sound a little bit outdated, we knew nothing about Tiger playing in it or anything like that. So just keep them in mind as you listen to it. Here is Bob Herrick.

So let's start here. Why this book and why now? Well, it's been a two year process. So the idea kind of cropped up after Tiger won the Masters in 2019, and there was the thought of trying to capture that quickly and turn something around, and you know, kind of quickly realized I was going to run out of time. And so I just kind of kicked around some other ideas, and there's been a lot written about Tiger, and I thought, well, there's really not been a lot written about Tiger and I thought well there's really not been a lot written about Phil so why not combine them and why not talk about their rivalry because we kind

of like rivalries and sports you know bird magic or red socks Yankees or you know whatever and Tiger Phil while obviously the records are quite different. Tiger is above everybody. They were really sort of at each other, friction, whatever you want to call it for 15 years, you know. And as I sort of researched, you know, the idea of could this really work, it became more and more parent that it was, it was an idea that had some, you an idea that had some legs because their careers really did intersect a lot. He didn't have the duels that we would have liked. There wasn't enough of that, frankly, but Phil won six majors and four of him.

Tiger was right there. An annoyed tiger to no end, but not only he didn't win, but it was Phil. You know, and so there was, and then Tiger had the big lead on him, eight to zero in majors and Phil fought back. And so, and also I like to point out, Phil was tiger before tiger. You know, he had an incredible amateur career,

incredible junior career, cleaned up in Southern California. Everybody knew who he was by the time he was 15. And you know, we all sort of know that about Tiger maybe, but not as much about Phil. Yeah, it's kind of dawned on me as I was reading it just how much as we're in this era, that we're not going to see what we saw. And it's hard to appreciate it when you're in that time, especially for me as kind of a kid during this time. Like, it was just second nature that, you know, Tiger

wins seven out of 11 majors. And that was like, well, yeah, well, why didn't he win more? And then you get to 2005 and Tiger wins two of them and Phil wins one of them, Michael Campbell aside, like, it's just like, how are we going to see two players emerge from an era and compete at that level ever again? I'd be hard pressed to imagine that we would. You've covered golf for a long period of time. Did you know while all of this was happening, how special that this was? Probably didn't appreciate it like I should have at the time.

You write it sort of became what you expected. I mean, it was, it's crazy to think back. There were many times when Tiger, you saw this bed out there, Tiger or the field. You know, and I mean, people would take Tiger. You know, I mean, it's crazy talk, right? I mean, who would do that? But that's how good he was and how solid he was. And, you know, it was exciting actually, though, I mean, that's crazy talk, right? I mean, who would do that? But that's how good he was and how solid he was.

And, you know, it was exciting actually, though. I mean, just, there was, some people had this sense, well, you know, he wins all the time, but I go, yeah, but it's, he's not supposed to. And, and, and sort of the drama of him, sort of getting there almost always. Can you do it again? It was a story. It was a huge story always.

And you're right, I mean, today, I mean, there's a lot of factors, I think. Would we have a rivalry with that? I mean, unless you talk about Brooks and Deshambo who haven't really gone head to head and golf, there aren't rivalries now. These guys are all friendly. Tiger and Phil were not like these guys at all.

I mean, look, they all want to be each other, and I'm sure they're stone cold on the course. But the chuminess afterward, that never would have happened with Tiger and Phil. They weren't waiting around for each other. And I'm not saying there's anything wrong with how these guys handled it today. It's just different.

Tiger and Phil were, they scoffed at each others at each other's accomplishments a little. It may be not so much Phil towards Tiger. I just remember this one of time in 2009 Phil won at D'Areal. He actually played a really good tournament and that he had food poisoning, one of the nights in the tournament. And Tiger had had come back at that season from the knee surgery. And it was only his third or fourth event back. And somebody asked Tiger, hey, how impressive is it

that Phil was able to do this despite food poisoning and Tiger went right to, what's the big deal? I won the PGA two years ago, at Southern Hills, it was 100 degrees. It wasn't that high. He just wasn't going to give it up for the guy. It took a long time before that ever happened. We're going to jump around timeline-wise, you know, kind of last dance style. I imagine through this conversation. But I get to the part where we're talking about the writer cup later on in the book and talking about Phil and Tiger. You have a line in there that talks about the exchanging numbers.

And I'm stunned by this maybe to find out that did Phil and Tiger not have each other's phone number until 2016 or 2017? Is that right? You know, I'm not sure if that's exactly true. Okay. I think Tiger probably changed his number a few times because there's references earlier when Tiger reached out. Excuse me, Phil reached out to Tiger around the time of the scandal. I'm assuming he did that via text, but he never really said how he did it.

I don't know if he called him and left a message or what have you, but he reached out to him and sort of offer some support. That was one of the rare times anything like that happened in those days. It happened later in the time frame you're talking about, but not back then. What is, I don't think that there is one thing you can point to as far as the genesis of the Tiger Woods beef. I'm not even, the Tiger Filt beef, I should say.

And I'm not even sure beef is the right word, because if I'm reading it, how I read it in the book, it sounds like there's a little spat here that maybe a guy took a little too personally, but it came kind of tangentially. Like Dave Pell's makes a bold statement, and then Steve Williams makes a bold statement, and it reflects on Phil and Tiger,

and maybe they use that internally to drive their competitiveness. But where does it stem from in your mind? Yeah, I don't know that there's a specific point in time. You're right. I don't think there was just this hatred or any kind of rank or between them. It's just that, you know, they were chasing the same things. And they were, there was a five-year age difference.

Phil already had a family. Tiger was very much on his own. They lived in different parts of the country. We've heard this many times, too. But Tiger didn't let anybody in his age group get close. He was going to, his friends back then, and I write about them, Omira, Marco Mira, John Cook. Those guys were a lot older than him.

He didn't view them as threats. They showed them the ropes, they were friendly. You know, obviously he wanted to beat them when he played them, but he didn't see them as being long-term threats. His rivals filled Ernie to some extent, Ernie L's, DJ Singh. You know, he was gonna keep them at arm's length,

certainly Sergio. Early on, you know, there wasn't the friction between Tiger and Sergio that grew over time. He just, you know, he just really didn't have close friends out there and I think that's where it stemmed from and sometimes people took it the wrong way. They took it like, oh, God, he hates that guy. No, he just wants to beat him. He not letting them get close. Phil was far more pragmatic, far more deferential,

always talked about what how great Tiger was for the game. Tigers' praise of Phil was a little bit harder to come by. He gave it, you know, you'd have to coax it out of him. He gave it, but it was far less than what you would hear from the other side. Well, that's funny. You say that because you say in the book too that Phil has, you know, for every veiled comment or kind of jab that Phil ever threw publicly at Tiger, it's, you know, coded

with 35 other things he said positively about it. And it seemed like it seemed like, you know, the equipment line. And for those that don't know that story, kind of take us to, why was the, what Phil said about the equipment such a big deal? Was it a big deal, I guess? What was the line? And why did that, because if I look back at that, it seems more or less that he is kind of complementing

Tiger more than he was, throw it a jab at him, but it seemed like, it seemed like anything that those guys gave each other, they were gonna use in some way as fuel against the other guy. Yeah, I mean, that, the story there was, they were going to use in some way as fuel against the other guy. Yeah, I mean, the story there was, that was, I believe, in 2003. And this was at the time in the game when the equipment was really evolving.

And you know, some of these guys were still using steel shafts and smaller headed drivers. And Tiger played a driver that was 43 and a half inches. You know, now we're talking 44-45-46 is the limit. It's going to be the limit. Pretty much everybody's playing 44-45 today. But back then, it was a lot of guys that moved up a little bit were lengthening the shaft to hit it farther. Tiger resisted. He didn't go to the bigger headed woods. He kind of stuck with what he had gotten there with, for the last few years. And why would he?

He was playing so great in the early 2000s. Why would he ever change? He eventually did. Obviously he went to the Nike ball, which meant a huge deal. But Phil basically said, hey, he's, tigers meant a huge deal. But Phil basically said, hey, you know, he's, he's, Tiger's playing with inferior equipment and he hates it that I'm blowing it by him now. Well, the inferior equipment was taken by many to mean

all those Nike clubs that he's using. And by the way, Tigers get millions of dollars to endorse those clubs. They're not any good. That's how they took it. Phil, I believe, and he has since said, and others back him up, he meant inferior equipment in terms of not utilizing the better technology that he had available. Like Tiger could have used a longer driver, he could have used a bigger head of driver,

and he didn't, and he was still beating them all. So, to your point, yeah, it was sort of a compliment, but it wasn't really taken that way by a lot of people. It was viewed as a big diss on Nike. You know, they were sensitive. You know, there was some question about their equipment. You know, there were guys who went to it and went away from it.

But some guys had success like Tiger and David DuVall. And John Cook, who was a friend of Tigers, was very put off by those comments. Like he actually sort of confronted Phil about it once. So, but yeah, like is that a huge big deal in the overall scheme of things, of the things that we talk about today? No, but in Tiger's world, it became something

he had to deal with, you know, and he had to talk about it and he had this sort of address and he wasn't going to say a whole lot. He certainly wasn't really letting Phil off the hook and that's where he would kind of use it to his advantage. Let Phil squirm a little bit. Let him get all the questions about that, you know, and that's sort of how these things played out.

How much of writing this book was from memory, note taking, and first hand experiences versus how much was research and things you learned for the first time. Yeah, that's a good question too. I mean, I would guess it was about 50-50. I mean, I was there for all this stuff. So like, you know, like I did not get a sit down interview with Tiger or Phil for this book. That was never going to happen with Tiger, given that he was at the time he was working on his memoir

and he was always told, he can't do anything like that. And I always sort of planned to get him here and there and ask a few questions. Well, COVID really impacted that. We had no access, basically. And then, of course, the car crash last year, he just wasn't out there. Phil was a little bit different in that. He never said no, but we never got it to work.

So a lot of the quotes in the book are from either interviews I had done with them over the years, from what they said at tournaments, from transcripts, what have you. But there's, I probably talked to a hundred and some people, 125 people, you know, in the last two years in reporting the book to get their views on these various incidents or issues in time. So it was a little bit of both. I mean, it helped to have been there for a lot of it. I mean, certainly I didn't remember it all.

You know, there was little things I found out. There was a lot of stories I did not know. You know, you wish you knew them at the time. They come out later. And so it was kind of fun to dive back into that and get to some of that. I mean, the chapter I did on Phil and Wingedfoot, that was such an opportunity missed.

For Phil at the 2006 US Open, I mean, Tyga was sort of out of the picture. His dad and Doc died. Missed the cut in the major for the first time as a pro that year. And you know, Phil had the whole stage and he's leading on the 72nd hole. It would have been a third straight major. You know, only Tiger had done that. So there was a lot to, in my mind, there was a lot to dive into in that US Open. I mean, you know, Monty almost got arrested afterward and, you know, just that was news because I did not remember that Monty part. What happened there? Yeah.

Yeah. I mean, you know, Monty had, you know, and, and, and in retrospect, he gets a little short shrift here. I mean, Monty had just as good of a chance to win that tournament as Phil as it turned out. You know, he, he, he messed up on the last hole too. And he's often sometimes put aside. And frankly, he had an easier shot. He had a seven iron to the green. He was in play, Phil was not. But afterward, Monty was just so upset,

so distraught and he's walking off the 18th and he's going to scoring. He might have been out of scoring. And there was a crowd and people around and it was hectic, chaotic. And somebody put his hand on his shoulder and it was meant to try to help him through. And it was a policeman.

But Monty didn't know that and he reacted incredibly badly. He wheeled around and he might have said a few bad words and, you know, it got a little bit ugly. And I mean, if some USGA people had an intervened, it might have gotten bad. You know, it was like one of those things like, well, you know, there's a certain point where you know, okay, I don't do this anymore. He, he apparently took it a little bit too far. So, and, you know, just the whole, that whole thing, you know,

Ogle V doesn't think he's got any chance to win. And, you know, Furek was in that, Padre Carrington, they all had chances. I mean, it was a brutally hard course, five over tied for the, or would have, five over was a winning score, would have tied a filmmaker's bogey. So, I just thought that tournament was so interesting because Phil actually didn't have it and was

there with a chance to win, didn't get it done, would have been a third straight major, and then what happens? Ty here comes back and wins the next two. You know, I mean, it's just sort of typical of how they rolled back then. No, I think that chapter tells it really well in terms of, you know, it doesn't, didn't bother Phil that much. Obviously, you know, it's, it's very synonymous with an enormous collapse. Yet at the same time, it was a really hard hole. And the guy couldn't find the club face that day. And I forget the name

fairy. I forget the guy's first day in his playing partner that day, very unerleded player. Yeah, Ken is very. Ken is fairy said, said something along the lines of I wish I wouldn't have broken 80 from where he was off the tee And I think that that helps set the scene for what happened there Which I just as I get more and more into covering golf the historical nature of some of these things It can get really dumbed down into all what a choke by fill and it's like if you dive back in

That's what I really enjoyed about this book is diving back into some of the sequence of of all these events and you know I it maybe part of the reason it took me a while to get through the book is I would go back and go back and watch highlights after after reading about something. And some that stuck out was reading about the 2004 masters with Phil. And how there was so much build up to that. You mentioned it was eight to zero Tiger at one point in majors. And as I was doing, as you said, I was doing the math and it finishes seven to six Tiger after that.

I mean, it gets a lot more interesting but he was criticized frequently for his playing style for being aggressive and he has a quote in there he says, I'm gonna play this way, whether it's Thursday, whether it's Sunday I'm gonna play this way at Augusta and I'm gonna play this way at the US Open. And if you go back and watch that back nine

at the 2004 Masters, he's down, Ernie's doing stuff all over the place, all over that golf course. And he shoots five under on that back nine and makes that putt. I just thought that was very prescient to the point where it's like, this playing style is going to be my way. I'm not going to change it, no matter what you guys say about it. And that's what ultimately leads to his first major. True. That's true. And he played great coming down the stretch. And he knew he had to be aggressive and that fit into his mindset. But I think earlier in the tournament, he played a more conservative style.

He certainly did no six at the Masters. You know, he's hitting cuts off the tee and he's trying to get it in play. I think a lot of bold talk from Phil there. There was a players championship where he really like sort of opened up a vein and talked about that. He had kind of let a, he had been in contention at Bay Hill and wasn't able to get that one done. He hit a ball in the water on 16 and people thought he was being too aggressive. And actually, he didn't really have a great shot anywhere. And he, you know, he hit it in the water

and ended up, you know, I believe Tiger went on to win that week. And Phil was heavily criticized for being too bold and he said, I'm not gonna change the way I played. He actually got a letter from Arnie from Arnold Palmer, you know, basically tell him, don't change. You know, that's the way you play. You're gonna win a bunch winning that way.

You know, and so it's sort of emboldened him. And that wasn't Tiger style. You know, for as great as Tiger was off the tee and all the great shots he hit, played a pretty smart, methodical game. He wasn't a great driver of the ball, but he tried to get it in play. He tried, you know, he tried to make the others

have to come after him and make the mistakes and it worked beautifully for him. You know, it's funny watching that putt fall in in 2004 watching walk off the green, you know, kisses kids and hug his wife and all that stuff. It made me, it was very weird 18 years later to kind of see this heel turn, this recent heel turn from Phil in terms of, you know, here's a player who has made me feel very, I remember exactly where I was in 2004 as a 17 year old watching that putt go in at the masters jumping off the couch and cheering, yet now seeing kind of how, how things have developed with Phil over the last year or so. Is that surprise you would all based on your experience with Phil and, you know, kind

of following his career, kind of how these last few months and years have gone? It does surprise me. Not from the standpoint of Phil's always sort of had this reputation as being, he's the smartest guy. He's got all the answers. And he knows this and he knows that. And he's been outspoken about things.

But it never really was to the point where it hurt him that much, certainly not publicly. You know, he was viewed as an outgoing guy, signed autograph, smiled, did interviews, came off well on TV. I think where the whole thing surprises me is, is where did this quest for chasing this big money come from exactly? I mean, it couldn't have all been about,

I want to make change for the PJ tour. Well, a lot of that is true. Phil has long thought that there are things wrong at the tour. And he has long had issues with transparency and some of the things that they do. So he actually has some points in this whole thing. It's just that the way he went about it has hurt him greatly because it's overshadowed the things that he's right about. When he talked about the media rights, that was very, very poor path to go down because it's just not true. It's not true.

No sports league gives players their media rights. It's the whole essence behind how they pay the salaries or how golf the purses are what they are. It's pretty basic. And as far as, you know, well, then using this new league is leverage. Well, like, were you that concerned about your peers coming up for the next 10 years that you wanted to make this better for them? Or was it about you? And remember, we're talking less than a year ago

that guy pulls off one of the most incredible feats. And frankly, it's probably been underplayed. Yeah. I want a major at 50? It had been 53 years since Julius Boros became the oldest major champion at 48. We'd had guys flirt with it obviously Tom Watts and Kenny Perry, but nobody had done it at that age.

He beats Keppga, you know, who's going for his fifth major, Louis Oost-Hasing, who's obviously still in the prime of his career, on a kind of a US open playing course that he had never been able to master. And now he does. I think the title score was 600. I mean, it was an accomplishment that should have carried him for years.

Clearly, his endorsement deals were going to go up. If he wanted to do TV, he could have done it and made a lot of money. He could have made Trump change easy money on the Champions Tour, a few times he went out there. And look, he still is exempt on the PGA Tour for years. US Open for five years, and obviously the other majors he's in. So it's just odd that this became a quest

and that he became the leader in it and how much this damage is reputation now. And it's you know I find it a shame because I you know I don't want to make a judgment about what's right or wrong. He's a very popular player who we should be embracing now and unfortunately we're not. A quick break to check in with our friends at Original Penguin. There is a very, very, very good reason why you see us wearing so much of their stuff in all of our videos. I'm wearing a pair of sweatpants and a sweater right now that I've had for several years. Actually, their stuff is very durable.

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I would tend to discreep there because there are so many offerings, they've got jeans, they've got golf pants, hoodies, sweatpants, T-shirts. You name it, they've got swimsuits, they've got shoes, they've got belts, they've, sweat pants, T-shirts. You name it. They got swimsuits, they got shoes, they got belts, they got absolutely everything you could possibly imagine. Go to originalpenguin.com. Check out the new arrivals, check out some of the stuff that you would have seen us

wearing in previous years on our YouTube channel or wherever you have may have seen it. I promise you're going to enjoy it. They've been fantastic to work with and I truly love wearing their stuff. Originalpenguin.com. Let's get back to Bob Herrick. They've been fantastic to work with and I truly love wearing their stuff. OriginalPingwan.com. Let's get back to Bob Herrick. I'm I guess glad to hear that perspective from a seasoned journalist who is for me who's not been in this industry that long.

It hasn't added up and I was wondering if you know someone who's been around him for 20, 25 years or however many it's been. If you were like, Oh, yeah, this was always going to get this. I'd have been surprised if that was your response, but I you know, there's certainly, you know, people that haven't thought highly of Phil, there's probably been some things behind the scenes, eye rolling, you know, we really don't know the extent of all the gambling. Clearly, that's in the background of this. You know, look, Alan who's writing the book, Alan Shippnut, who's writing a book about him and talk to him, you know, look, Alan, who's writing the book, Alan Shippnut, who's writing a book about him and talk to him, you know, he's been around for a long time.

I'm sure he's got a great book coming out on Phil. If it's me, I know what the generalism rules are. You know, I know what the rules are and I know what reality is. And the rules are, yeah, if you don't say it's off the record, I can use it. You know, well, all of us have had dozens, hundreds of conversations where those words are not spoken, but then it becomes apparent that the guy is talking to you as a human being and not as the person on the other side of a tape recorder or an opa. And there comes this point where you have to, in your own mind, say to yourself,

there's no way he can be intending for that to be written. And given the language Phil used, that would have been my clue. No way, he's just riffing here. And so, okay, now, do you ruin a good story? In my case, I say to him, Phil, we're on the record. What do you, you know, we're on the record here. What do you, what are you saying? Probably he recoils, he pulls back. Oh, no, I don't

mean for this to be on the record. Okay. Now if I just let him off the hook, probably, but not really, I would say, no, no, look, you said that. We never agreed to anything here, but I have a sense that you don't mean for me to use that, but I need something from you on that. You said that. Now, give me something I can use. And you put him in the place of, okay, I'm, I've just, he's just saved me somewhat, but now I need to give him something on that.

So in the case we're talking about here, the live golf and the saudi stuff, all right, what's your true feelings on it? What do you think about it? And then if he says it again, then everybody knows. I mean, I certainly don't think he was misquoted and I certainly don't think Phil ever said it was all off the record. But judging by what he said,

I don't think he meant for it to be used and he's been buried because of that. And I just think it's a great journalism lesson. It's a great kids coming up thing. How do you handle that? I mean, we've all been there where somebody says things. In all of my dealings with Tiger, I typically had an agreement with him.

If I'm going to use something, I'm going to make it very clear I'm asking him about it. Hey, look, I need to ask you something for a story I'm working on. And then boom, and then of course, his tenor changes a little bit. He's a little more guarded. He's not quite as flamboyant maybe. If we're just talking, and I'm not necessarily thinking this is for publication. If I, if he says

something that's of interest to me, say, Hey, look, I'd like to use that. Can I, how can I use that? And then he might say, no, no, that's, I, that is completely between us. Well, if I want a burn them, am I ever going to talk to them again? You know, so this is, this is how these things work out. And there's a part of me, look, Phil's a big boy. He's been through all this. It's his bad.

It's on him. He needed to make it clear. He's talking to a reporter that he knows. He's talking to an author writing a book about him. How do you say those things and not make it clear? That's where it seems like a culmination of so many of the things we've already talked about in terms of him just needing to be the smartest man in the room and you know needing to metal in this book despite you know,

Alan had made requests for him to sit for it and he didn't and and I talked to Alan about this too and he made a great point of like look if he to set off the record I had to push back on that like no this no, this is our chance to talk about the book, like talk to you for the book and had that conversation in a different way. It just feels like he just couldn't help himself. And with that much media training and that many years of doing it, he should have definitely, definitely known.

It's, yeah, I got to know. Yeah, I mean, he could have taken that part of it off the record. And Alan was going to honor that. And obviously, I understand where he wouldn't have, he'll look, he's been trying to get the guy forever to talk to him about his book. You're not going to let him waste the entire conversation. And I can't use any of it. Certainly not. The whole thing is shocking. I mean, that Phil would get himself into that mess like that. And of course, that was set a long time ago before things had really heightened.

And of course, that was set a long time ago before things had really heightened. You know, we didn't know as much about the live golf stuff back then as we do now. We didn't know how serious it was, how organized they were, frankly. You know, they've, they really are. And so it's just, no matter how you feel about what he said, though, I just think from the golf standpoint, it's crazy that we are not talking about him going to defend his major, you know, his major at the P.J. Championship.

Have you had any unpleasant run-ins either with Phil or Tiger over the years, kind of what's your relationship been like individually with both of them? I've had a couple of instances with both, neither of them were particularly bad. The one time, I had two times with Tiger where like he snapped at me pretty good, but it was all in the heat of battle and it was completely understood and it was all fine later. One of them was, I'll never forget this in 2011.

And I think I wrote about this in the book to some degree, where this was when things were the Achilles issue with the masters that year, the knee issue. And he comes back at the players and plays only nine holes. He didn't play again until the bridge stone that year, which was the week before the PGA. And I remember asking him after one of the rounds, like, you know, he was just kind of shaky

and not looking great. And it was something about after one of the rounds, like, you know, he was just kind of shaky and not looking great. And it was something about, he was very annoyed, very upset with himself. And I asked him a question about expectations. Like, why don't you just lower them? You know, like, why are you, why are you putting this on yourself?

You haven't played, you know? And he was sort of like, well, I don't do that. And I'm like, well, why not? You know, why not? Anybody else? Well, I'm't do that. And I'm like, well, why not? No, why not? Anybody else? Well, I'm not anybody else. He was very abrupt, you know? And it was awkward, you know?

And I knew him pretty well at that time, but he just wasn't going to go there. And another time was the year in 2013, when he at the tournament in Abu Dhabi, when he got the two-shot penalty for the bad drop, he thought he had an embedded lie. It was under this brush, but actually the ball was in sand, and so the rule is, yeah, you know, through the green it's a drop, but not in a sandy area. And so, you know, he got hit with two shots, and he missed the cut by one.

And, you know, I've went, go 9,000 miles to the Middle East, and it's the second round round in all of the sudden boom, you know, not only is he not around for the weekend, but that's a huge story. And he barely talked afterward, you know, a couple of minutes. So I'd like trailed a minute locker room or tried to. And I just got a very abrupt. Not now, Bob, sorry, not now, and he just kept going. And then, you know, he turned around and he said, I'm sorry, and that was it, you know, and but I mean, that's the worst of it. Really, I never had him question me about anything. I wrote, never gave me any grief about any of that. I had an issue with Phil, though, just last summer, which was kind of funny. You know, remember the thing in Detroit, with the gambling story that came out just as he

gets there. And he known it was an old story where he had actually won $500,000 him in a group of guys years ago, 20 years ago, in something the book he was in Detroit. And what happened was is they never got paid. Well, it's not exactly something you can go file a lawsuit over. And what happened was this, this stuff came up in a trial in 2007 with some mob figures. And so there was this whole taint of maybe he was involved with some people like that. It was kind of ugly. And a guy in Detroit wrote about it. And there was no, but there was no hook other than Phil was in town. And so, you know, Phil was enraged by this. Like, why would this be coming up now? So I was trying to decide

how to handle this. And kind of just came to the conclusion that if he talked about it or if any of his people talked about it, we would do something. But if not, we would sort of let it go because it really had no point. It had no, there was no hook to it. So I called his attorney and Glenn Cohen, he's based in Jacksonville actually, and they were obviously very, very mad and he said, look, let me see if I can talk to you. I'll call you back. And a few hours later, he did.

And he was very careful with what he said, but he basically said, look, you know, we're not disputing that this happened. We're just wondering why is his name getting dragged through on this right now? He comes to this town, he's supporting this tournament, the local media, attacks him. You know, why would he ever want to go back there? And so I wrote what he said, you know, I gave their side of it. I gave what was in the story and I wrote it. Well, and also Glenn said, Phil's not gonna talk about this anymore.

Well, Phil did talk about it. He ended up talking about it like after every round and he was, you know, he got more and more frustrated by it. And then he was very active on social media about it. And a couple of my stories got tagged into his feed. All of a sudden, I look one day to see what he's saying. I think it was on that Saturday. And I see that he's blocked me on Twitter.

So I'm thinking to myself, now how petty is that? Really? So I texted him. And I was pretty, Stern, I'm like, Phil, really? You're gonna block me on Twitter over all this stuff? I go, you do realize that I wrote what your attorney said. Like, I basically gave your side of the story.

I go, I don't understand why this has you so upset. So I get this long text back. You know, look, you know, if you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem. And in this case, you're part of the problem. And he kind of went on and on. And he was giving me a hard time about, you know, like, not about what I wrote exactly, though,

which was what I couldn't understand. Like, what about what I said, did you have a problem with? And so I wrote him back and I said, look, Phil, I go, I understand your upset about all this. I go, I don't understand why you're upset with me. I said, I have written far worse things. I have made far bigger errors than this. Even as they relate to you, I don't understand this.

I said, can we talk about it? So he writes me back and he goes, look, he goes, you're right, he goes, I've made a lot of mistakes too. He goes, let's talk about this later. So I think I noticed the next day or two, I was no longer blocked. The next time I see him is at the open at Royal St. George's. And I actually, it was the Monday of the open week. And I actually went out there to try to find him. He was actually playing with Bryson. Bryson had his own issues in Detroit that week,

you know, the caddy thing, he, him and the caddy split. Something of a job that, this is, yeah, exactly. This is a two for one here. Maybe I can get these guys. And so sure enough, Bryson wanted to clear the air. I got a few minutes with him. And I was up by the green.

I want to say it was like the tenth hole. I had been following them for like two holes. I was up by the green. And I happened to be looking. I think I was writing something in my notebook. And all of a sudden Phil comes right up to me. I hadn't seen him walking over. And he's right in front of me, towering over me,

pretty good bit. He's a tall guy. And he's just looking down at me and he goes, are we good? And I said, I said, are we good? I go, well, I said, actually, I came out here to let you, let me have it if you wanted to. You know, like if you, if you still were upset with me, here, I'd rather you just go ahead and give it to me. You know, and let me, let me have it. He goes, nah, nah, nah, nah, and he basically kind of apologized. And then this is one of those things about on the record, off the record, right?

We walked like the next whole. And he just kind of went on a rant about the whole thing. And he's explaining his side of it, he's explaining, you know, when national media guys say that, you perpetuate it, you make it go farther. And, you know, I was sitting there not thinking that we were talking on the record, but at one point I said to him, I go, look, I want to be able to write about this. What can I say?

And then he gave me something that I used and it was far more toned down. He said, look, I don't want to make a big deal out of this anymore. I'm just explaining it to you. I made my point. I wanted to clear the air with you. And that, you know, after that, everything was fine. Now, look, I haven't really seen them much since then, obviously. I chatted with them in Memphis about the rider cup. He was fine. You know, I saw him somewhere out at the Northern Trust. Everything was cool. So, but look, that's going to happen, you happen. And the good guys let you get over it. You'd like to think that if I had done something

that the Tiger didn't like, okay, you know, listen, in 2000, I didn't get it from him, actually, I got it from his girlfriend in 2019, no, 2020, I guess it was, over the holidays, I did a long, a long kind of timeline, the whole tiger scandal. Here we are, what, 10 years later. But it was all the good and all the bad.

And come to find out, Erica was extremely mad about this. And she kind of gave me the cold shoulder for a couple of tournaments until I figured it out. And I finally tracked her down at Riviera and I had this conversation with her. And it was obvious that she was really mad. And I had talked to Tiger before and I said,

hey, look, I look like I caused some problems at home. And he kind of chuckled and he goes, yeah, he goes, look, I get it. I understand what problems at home. And he kind of chuckled and he goes, yeah, he goes, look, I get it. I understand what you were doing. He goes, we've been through this. And I try to explain what we did. And he was like, yeah, I understand. He goes, obviously, we're not all that thrilled with it,

but I get it. But she wasn't getting over it. So it took a little while, but that we thankfully cleared that up because it was right before the pandemic. So look stuff happens, you know, and we all make mistakes too, you know, like I, I'm fine with being called out if I, if I messed up. And that's where the, the struggle of your job in, in my job too, to a lesser degree, to, you know, knowing when you can and should be critical of somebody knowing that also might lead to losing access to that person weighing.

What do you owe the readers and your listeners, you know, in that regard, what's what's the proper answer? And it's a it could be a tough answer, especially I find that players reactions to stuff that I've said or written or whatnot. Almost like to your point on the field story, I almost never coincides with some of the severity, right? Some of the more severe things I've said about people, they don't usually have an issue with, but a harmless joke they may take totally the wrong way or something like that. It's a weird, weird kind of nature of to what we do. But what is, you know, something that, apart of the book, I found super interesting and I feel like I've I've read this in in other books about Tiger as well, but definitely some new nuggets that I hadn't picked up on was just the dramatic

turn from Tiger turning amateur to turning professional. How much his life changed in an extremely short period of time from the USAM to the greater Milwaukee open. Explain this to me. He tried to play the pro am at the tournament as an amateur with another professional. Is that sound right? He did. He actually did. I think I believe it was Duffy Waldoar if I'm not mistaken was the pro. And see, this was good. This was interesting for me too, because I wasn't there for all that stuff.

And so I had to dig back into this, and it's fascinating to think. First of all, we all know Tiger won the US Amateur on a Sunday night in Portland, and he's in the Milwaukee Open the next week, and turning pro and having these huge endorsement deals announced. Well, there's no way that's happening in three days. That stuff had been going on for months, probably back to May. And so some

of what he was doing that summer was a bit of a charade because he kept talking, you know, like he would get asked the question all the time, and he kept putting it off. It's sometimes he talked about going back to school. He told people he'd be going back to school, but yet secretly they had lined him up for a bunch of PJ tour events, and if you were going to, if you were going to go back to school, why would you be entered in those, but people didn't know it? And so as part of that, though, they were trying to keep the secret for as long as possible. And they weren't going to announce it until that Wednesday afternoon. And so Tiger actually played in, you know, he was in the tournament as a sponsor's invite, allegedly as an amateur.

So he played in the program as an amateur with another pro. Like they were trying to keep this ruse and but it actually had come out like on Tuesday it's sort of you know the world kind of knew he was turning pro that week and he didn't actually have this official press conference I don't think until that later that day. But yeah it was sort of kind of a weird deal how that all went down and and and you know he didn't have any money yet. You know, there's a- So, entry fee, yeah.

Back then they had to pay $100 to enter and they don't do that anymore. And he didn't have the money. He had a, he had a borrowed from Butch Harman. I mean, you know, Tiger had signed all these deals, but, you know, he didn't have any cash in his pocket. So, yeah, it's just kind of, you know, look, he's 20 years old, you know,

he didn't, you know, he just still, he didn't know how to live life. I mean, he had been announced as, you know, being from Orlando, Florida, and he hadn't even been there yet, you know? So just a lot of crazy stuff that was going on around that time, which actually makes the way he started his career by winning like he did, all the more impressive. Oh yeah, I mean, it's just,

it's super interesting to me, somebody that was not around for the hype and the buildup to read things like 5.3 rating for the US amateur final, like for an amateur golf tournament, out rating every PGA Tour event from the past, how many years? I mean, it's not even comparable. That blows my freaking mind.

And how much the hype actually was before he even got there. You know, golf was not as big of a sport as it is now. I mean, he used the one that kind of, you know, brought this sport to the masses in a way that we had never seen. Yet at the same time before he was even pro, he was drawing those kind of numbers.

I mean, how the crazy intersection with Phil is that on that day that he won the third straight, Phil beat Greg Norman to win at Firestone. It was then called the World Series of Golf. It wasn't a World Golf event. And that was his ninth tour win. And it moved them into the top 10 in the world for the first time. And like nobody paid any attention to it hardly because of the tiger in the USA. Or at least it didn't get the attention that it should have.

A guy who's Phil Sage at that time, 25 winning his ninth title. A guy gets to nine wins now. We're celebrating him. JT, speed, those guys. It's a pretty big deal when you get in that realm. And then you beat Greg Norman, who at the time was, that was 96th, the year he had blown the masters. He was still around number one or two in the world.

And it's sort of like a secondary golf story, you know, because of what Tigers doing. It was pretty amazing. Hmm. And speaking of secondary golf stories, the one that I had never heard before and totally got me was, tell us about what happened media

wise when Tiger is playing in the what is now the John Deere classic in the this is 96 fall 96 right tell us tell us what happens there what what the first of all what the John Deere was up against and how that worked out for the media. Yeah well you know the John Deere seemingly is run into these issues a lot. They were staged against the second president's cup. And so, and that was being played in Virginia at the Robert Trent Jones course. So, you know, most of the top guys were there at the time, Fred Couples and, you know, guys like that were playing in the, in the president's cup. And, and that was where a lot of the media was.

in the, in the president's cup and, and that was where a lot of the media was. And Tiger was, Tiger entered, he had entered what, five or six, seven tournaments, trying to, the idea was to get his card before the end of the year. He was going to try to earn enough money to be within the top 125, so he didn't have to go to Q school. You know, in Milwaukee, you only want a couple thousand dollars. So, you know, the thought was, is this is going to be really hard. What's it going to be like if Tiger goes to Q school? And then I think he went to the BC Open, was next, finished third, you know, rain delayed, they shortened it to 54. And I want to say that John

Deere was either this third or fourth tournament. I think it was this third. And obviously Tiger gets into contention. He's the third round leader. And all those media guys at the presence cup said, see ya, and they left. And they all went to Western Central Illinois to cover Tiger, who for one of the rare times in his career didn't finish it off after having a 54-hole lead, ed fury of all people beat him.

And it was still a great story because Tiger was in the mix that soon. And I had a triple bogey early in the round, he made some mistakes. And obviously only a couple of weeks later, he won his first one. That's just that blows my mind. Leave it the president's cup to go. One that he's competing opposite it and Yeah, it's funny the only time he's ever been on the podcast We just had him on for a short period of time. I asked him what is his biggest

Amul again, he would wonder the biggest regret he'd have and he referenced that that tournament off the bat losing to the gripper Yeah, as he called him in in 96, but, again, for someone that had not experienced those, I really enjoyed that part of the book where you go through the sequence of events of what he went to to get his card and how there was still this kind of underlying uncertainty as to how successful he was going to be as a pro. Compare his, I mean, because one of the things that sticks out too and reading it was, he was not a slam dunk performer in professional events as an amateur. He did not perform anywhere near to the performer in professional events as an amateur.

He did not perform anywhere near to the extent that Phil did as an amateur. No, I mean, if you, if you didn't know what happened after Tiger's pro career began and you just looked at their amateur careers, you could easily make the argument that Phil would have been much better because Phil won a tour event as an amateur. In 1991, he's the last guy to do it too. He won the Tucson Open. He was a junior in college. He actually came back to school,

finished fourth in the NCAAs that year, and then won it the next year. He had played in a few pro events. He had a very good first master's in 1991, whereas Tiger never really did all that great in pro-events as an amateur. Like he missed a bunch of cuts. In the Majority play,

he was really not that impressive in terms of where he finished. His game was impressive, but his scoring wasn't. Finished way back at the 96 US Open. Like 80 some guys made the cuts. His best finish was 22nd at the 96 British open that Tom Lehman won and at the time a lot of people said all you know this is as impetus for turning pro now he's ready Tiger has even said that but of course as I was saying earlier I think the decision had already been made but so you say that Tiger Tiger

yes looked the US Amateur is incredible but as yes, look, the US Amateur is incredible, but as we all know, winning the US Amateur does not pour 10 pro success. It's a completely different event. The guys he was beating, you know, Buddy Marucci was in his 40s at the time. Obviously Steve Scott was a nice young up and coming player who he beat, you know, he beat in the last one. And the first one he beat was a Trip Teenie, you know, who never turned pro or didn't have much of a pro, it was Hank, you had the pro career.

So none of that meant he was gonna be a great pro, and his attempts to play well and to play in pro events weren't all that great. So yeah, like the fact that he came out, yes, it was a ton of hype. But there was nobody expecting he was going to win at the rate that he did so fast. Yeah. A couple of things where you mentioned this earlier about Phil winning the 96 and EC. What did blew my mind? 10 year exemption at that time for that event, is that right? Yep, and that mattered a great deal to Phil. He talked about it.

It seems ridiculous in retrospect. You know, a guy he was never going to have to worry about that, right? But he was what, three or four years into his career. And he, you know, yes, he had won nine times, but, you know, in his mind, having that 10-year exemption meant tons of security, you know, I mean, that was huge to him at the time. And yet, obviously, it never mattered. He was never gonna have to worry about that.

But at the time, it's sure did. I'm gonna ask you a spoiler, a few more fill stories here in that maybe this one seems like it's on me, but I don't think I'd ever really fully heard the details of what happened with Amy's pregnancy with their son Evan and how kind of scary some of those quotes were and how that may have a trickle down onto the golf course in 03, but it's kind of hard to think about the golf after reading that. I'm wondering if you could tell us some of that story. Yeah, and that's one area I really wish I could have

addressed with Phil all these years later. You know, now that his son is, I think 18, Evan would be, no, 19, 19, 2022, that was 2003. You know, and the bottom line is, is, is both Evan and Amy nearly died during childbirth. Evan was deprived of oxygen for quite a long time. Amy, I believe there was a good bit of internal bleeding. And there was panic in that hospital, and there was a sense that they were gonna lose them both. And in the aftermath of that, Phil was very, very shook, as obviously you would expect. It's sort of, it turned into kind of a lost year for him.

He went and played the masters the next month. He kind of went through the motions that year. And after a few months went by though, like he kind of used the off season and into O4 to really refocus and to try to sort of, you know, all right, look, you know, I'm very, very lucky to be in the position I'm in. And he did, he got with a trainer and he did some things.

And he came right out in O'Fourney, won the Bob Hope Palm Springs tournament. And then obviously we know what happened at the Masters. But yeah, that was a, that was a very, very difficult time. You know, apparently there was some pledges, you know, like he, he said he was never going to gamble again. You know, he told his mom that, you mom that there was just all, you just was, as you would understand, he was just incredibly distraught. And it had an impact on him big time.

And I think it helped him get refocused on golf and realize I don't want to squander what I've got here. Yeah, the quotes from them over here in the nurses talk about, you know, what a shame she's, she's not going to see her, her three little ones grow up or things along that. I just, if you read that part of then go watch 2004 and watch him run off and, and hug and kiss Amy and the three kids, it hits just a little bit different, you know, through that.

I mean, his son was a year old at that time. Yeah. It's amazing. I want to completely different out. I want you to tell us about the jab that Phil threw at Michael Clark the second, which I got to admit is a name that I had not heard before this book. Yeah, that was a good one too. That was one that I discovered in the reporting in this book that I had never heard.

I can't recall off the top of my head. I'd have to look in the book myself to tell you which British Open it was at. But apparently this was back in the time of the grooves and all the stuff that was being talked about. Guys had to really make sure that they were playing with conforming clubs and Phil hit some shot that Michael Clark saw on TV

that just reacted in a way that he was like, no way, no way. You know, like Phil had like a 40 yard pitch shot that spun back a bunch and was really close to the hole. And so I think the next tournament that we're talking about was Hartford. Hartford must have been after the open then. and Phil has somebody of rules person come up to him and tell him, hey, you know, we, we need to check your clubs to make sure they conform and he's like, what? And you know, like,

basically one thing leads to another and he finds out who it was who apparently, you know, you're allowed any players allowed to tell them, I want you to check someone's those clubs. or is allowed to tell them, I want you to check someone's those clubs. And this, this, this obviously annoyed Phil to no end. And so he found out who it was and the clubs were conforming. And so he basically wrote Michael Clark and note that he left in his locker. Something, it was to the effect of dear Michael.

Thanks for your concern about my clubs. Good luck at Q school this year Phil. Looking at the time, you know, they played in in November and in July and there was no indication that he was gonna lose his card. I mean, I don't think he was doing well, but Phil rubbed it in pretty good there. And as it turns out, he did have to go back to Q school.

That is, that is, that's just, that's fantastic. Along the same lines are somewhat similar. I want to tell us the story of the, the rules official tool, Will Nicholson, and the story about the 2000, was it 2004 Masters with Ernie Ls? Yeah, exactly. Yeah, that was, that was an amazing one to hear that too. I think you have to sort of understand the context a little bit. Phil's trying his tail off to win a major, and you know, he's got that tiger eight-nothing hanging over his head, always being asked when he's going to win a major, and finally, you know, he's really playing well at that old four masters. And Ernie's playing well too. And Ernie's in the group in front of him on Saturday.

And Ernie hooked the T-shot left off the eleventh fairway. And down the left is a bunch of trees. And his ball had come to rest in this kind of this rubbish where they had like left a bunch of debris, trees, branches, sticks, whatever. And Ernie felt he deserved relief from that. And two rules officials said no. They said they wouldn't give it to him. And Ernie asked for them to bring in the head guy, had rules and competitions. Will Nicholson, who used to be the USGA president, he was a long time a custom member.

He held that job. Fred Ridley later had that job before he became chairman. And I believe Ernie referred to it as he called it, it was something about Greenskeeper's rubbish. I think he was the term he used. We call in South Africa, we call that's Keepers rubbish. I think it was the term he used. We call it in South Africa, we call that Green's Keepers rubbish. And you're allowed to drop from that.

And look, the masters has always been notoriously pro player. They have always looked out for the player. And you can think of rulings over the years where this has been the case, going all the way back to the one if you've ever read about the Arnie wanted this, at the 58 masters, the first one where he had the embedded ball on 12. Tiger's thing in 2013 with the drop in the score card. For the most part, they

side with the player. Well, Will Nicholson sided with the player and he gave Arnie the drop. And Ernie turned what probably was gonna be a double into a bogey. You know, because he was gonna have to take a penalty and still chip out. And this is all happening. And yeah, obviously Phil hears what happens. And it always rubbed him the wrong way. And it just bothered him that even though he won the tournament.

And so Phil sees Will Nicholson at the PGA that year at Wistling Straits and Will's working as in a rules official for the PGA. He's a rules guru, you know. So, and they're, I guess in a practice round and and what Nicholson comes up to him in a cart and just, you know, like driving around or whatever and waves and and feel I guess can't help himself. And he said, Hey, Will, if you're looking for Ernie, I get he's back there, you know, like a total diss on the attorney ruling at the masters. I didn't say what he was looking for, but he immediately went to Ernie and will drop an F-bomb on him, you know, like, hey, Phil, you know, F yourself. And then he sped off and apparently he later came back and he apologized. But I just

think this is like kind of the epitome of Phil, right? You know, like he's going to stick the needle into an Augusta guy of all people, you know, a guy who's in charge of the rules there. And he had won the tournament, but that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's some of the stuff that has gone on. I love going back in here. The old quotes, the stories like that. It's, it's fantastic. You know, and I never really connected the dots of how all, you know, these particular scenarios worked out for Phil in terms

of how the 72nd whole played out three different times for him where the protagonist in the story is out of position off the tee, meaning pain Stewart and 99 punches out gets up and down for par. Tom's I forget where he drove it in 2001 at Atlanta athletic, but lays up gets up and down for par and Phil when he's out of position at wing foot instead of punching out trying to get up and down for par and Phil and he's out of position at wing foot instead of punching out trying to get up and down get get away with par goes for it and and loses it there. And it just after reading all these, it's like man, Phil's a six time major winner. That's a class of his own, but it's really hard to not feel like a, I don't know, sympathy

is not the right word, but kind of like you're kind of a, you could you should be the Tom Watson category. You should be an eight time major winner probably. And you know, and I know he's had some close calls. The ball lips in in 2004 who knows what happens if it doesn't, but you know, Trune is another thing too that, you know, is just, he finished 11 shots, clear a third place and didn't, didn't win. And it's just, that's what a takeaway I had from reading it all.

And I'm wondering at the conclusion of the, of writing this book, was there any big takeaways you had that maybe were different from what you thought going into it? Yeah, I mean, certainly Phil, you can make the case that he could have had 10 majors. Some of it was of his own doing, you know, he was in contention at a US soap in that I believe the one that Cory Pavein wanted, Shinnecock. The sort of bad luck in a way that, not completely, Phil had his chances. Pinehurst was difficult that final day. Guys were making mistakes, but Phil had chances down the stretch. He actually led with a few holes to go and then found himself behind.

You know, had a really good chance on 17 and didn't make it. And then he's behind. And then, you know, he has a guy get it up and down to beat him. And then it happens again at the PGA Championship where by the way, at the time, Phil's score was the lowest of any other PGA Championship, but one guy beat him, you know. And then he doesn't learn his lesson from that in O6, and one of the great wedge players of all time, take your medicine, punch it out, I winged for it, get it on the green, you have a chance to win with a 10, 15, 20 foot pot for par,

or you're going into a playoff. You know, those guys beat you that way, you didn't do that. The true example is a really good one. You know, that was, that was a tournament that, you know, one guy, he played great, you know, he nearly shot 62 the first round. You know, there's others.

I mean, Marion, that Justin Rose won. That was a great opportunity. He gave himself a pretty good chance at Beth Page in 09 and Lucas Glover, not a very hailed player, Beatom. So yeah, I mean, look, we can say this about a lot of guys, but again, a point to their greatness, how many times are you there, too? It's not just the six that you won, but there's five or six more that possibly he could have. Yeah I certainly hope that there's a better conclusion to to Phil's story career than the one we're kind of left with right now I have a feeling there will be and there's a chance for for redemption here

But the book is called tiger and Phil where can people get it and where's what's the best place to order it? Amazon's probably the best place to order it. Amazon's probably the best place to order it. It's pretty simple, you know, you just plug in name tiger or fill or whatever, it'll come up, my name, it'll come up. That's the easiest way. It'll be in bookstores on the publication date or if not a little bit sooner,

it should start trickling in. So I always encourage people to support their local bookstore if they can. So yeah, a lot of places it'll be available. Great. Well, Bob, thanks so much for taking the F1. Thanks for the advanced copy and thanks so much for taking some time to share some stories. I promise we left a lot out so there's plenty to read in there for people that are still up in the air on whether or not to buy the book. Please do. And thanks for coming on the podcast and tell some stories. No problem Chris. Thanks so much for having me. Appreciate it. Bet cheers.

Right club. Be the right club today. That's better than most. That is better than most. Better than most. That is better than most. Better than most.