No Laying Up - Golf Podcast - NLU Podcast, Episode 552: Shane Ryan on "The Cup They Couldn't Lose"

Episode Date: May 11, 2022

Shane Ryan stops by ahead of the release of his upcoming book The Cup They Couldn't Lose which profiles the US's dominant Ryder Cup victory at Whistling Straits while also exploring the history of the event.  We discuss all aspects of the Ryder Cup including the evolution of the competition, what makes a good captain, and some of the notable mistakes both sides have made in recent years.  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

I'm going to be the right club today. Yes! That is better than most. How about him? That is better than most. Better than most. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to the No-Lang Up Podcast. Sally here. Today's guest is our friend Shane Ryan. He has got a new book out, which I'm sure you have heard about it.

It is called The Cup. They couldn't lose. I know he's doing a lot of interviews these days. You probably have seen his face pop up in a lot of places. We did our very, very best to make this interview very unique. And more about, I would consider the book to be more about the history of the Ryder Cup than it is. About the 2021 Ryder Cup, we do talk about that in detail on the podcast, but Shane has tremendous appreciation and enthusiasm for the history of the cup. And he does a great

job telling that story in the book and was nice enough to come on and share some of those stories and some of that insight on the podcast with you with all of us here today. So I think you're really gonna enjoy this episode. No link up is brought to you by our friends at Precision Pro Golf, the official rangefinder of NLU. Having doubt before a shot is never a good thing, whether you are stepping off distances

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precision pro swing with confidence and hit more greens. Here is Shane Ryan. What did you learn in the process of writing this book about the writer cup that you didn't already know going into it? Yeah, there's an awful lot. I think the main thing I didn't know, and which is a big part of the book, is the history of the writer cup.

And by that, I mean, the pretty recent history. Like, I knew Europe was better. I knew Europe had dominated us for a long time, but I didn't know how it all started. And I know you actually got to do it, I did, which was talk to Tony Jacqueline, one-on-one, which is one of, you know, you did an amazing job. And I think it's really cool that you got that. So it's archived.

He and I met at his club, and it was just so cool to sit there and talk with him. And here the story about really how the Ryder Cup was on the verge of death in the late 70s and early 80s, to the point that the people in charge at the British PGA and the four runner to the European tour were kind of going all around the UK desperate to get sponsors and nobody would bite.

To the point that like 1983 seemed like there might not be a Ryder Cup at all. They finally did get a sponsor from Bell Scotch whiskey, which is, yeah, funny. And they gave them a lot of money. They, one of those things were like, nobody else was bidding in the scout. Just like, we take 300 grand. And they're like, oh, okay. At the time, at the time, a lot of money.

And so it continued. But at the same time that it continued, there was also this urgency about it. Like we need to get competitive fast. Okay, because it had already expanded to Europe, that didn't make a lick of difference in 79 or 81. The US was still killing them as they've been doing since 1927. And we're entering you know, a period where, you know, TV is becoming more important. You need to make a profit eventually. And so Tony Jacqueline, you know, who was this very unlikely figure, he didn't like the writer cup at that point, the, you know, the institution that was in charge of it,

they didn't really like him, but they needed to do something radical. And so they made him captain and he had to change things so fast. And I think the way he did it, the way he kind of overnight made Europe competitive, they almost win in 83 in Florida. And then they go on to win 85. And of course, the rest is history. I think that's one of the great turnaround stories, not just in golf, but in sports. It really amazed me. And I had no idea about any of that coming in. Well, it seems like there may be some identity issues in that time period about how competitive they even wanted it to be. And I'm approaching this from the standpoint of the viewpoint, I guess, of Jack Nicholas at the 85, 87, 83 or 87 Ryder Cup.

I forget which one it was when the Europeans rolled out their singles lineup. He says something in particular and reaction to that in terms of, you can't do that the way that they had ordered it. And I always viewed that as like, I mean, that makes a lot of sense if you're just like having like a member guest. And like, it's almost like I got that kind of vibe

about the Ryder Cup. And you make this point too in your podcast as well. Like the miracle that is the survival of this thing for so long. And then all of a sudden it became like, I don't know, holy shit, we are at each other's throats. And so I don't think there is a one moment when that happens.

You've done a great job with 83, 85, 87, the run up into 91, which is when I think things change, but there's not a snap of the fingers for this thing to totally flip. Yeah, you know, and the way you described it is perfect because especially on the American side, when you're winning all the time, it's your way to go over and oh yeah, look, all the British people are going to get to see us play. They don't get that that often. And then we kick their butts and pat them on the back. It's almost like condescending or patronizing a little bit. They were very much not ready for things to get that competitive as fast as they did. And yeah, the story you were alluding to is hilarious where there's always been this agreement

that you, you know, you put your best players at the end. That's how you do it. And Tony Jacqueline in 83 knew he needed to do something dramatic to have a chance to win. He put all his best players up front. And it's just such a funny thing because you don't see people call it this nakedly unaware. Jacqueline was just being like,

you can't do that. You can't do that. Barbara, you're not gonna to bully what they do. Come here. The picture like flapping his hands. But yeah, so that and that was a shock. And then like you said, there's no one moment. But another big one was 85 where there's this gentile kind of things surrounding the rider cup. And then they go to Europe and the fans are really no different than you might see at a soccer match today or something in England.

They are well, can you back, can you just real quick back up to a huge thing for me with 83 was and we'll we can kind of backtrack as well to talk about Sevy at a certain point too. But the reaction among the team and it's kind of haunting quotes that come from, you know, where things I really do think things change was the reaction after 83 when Europe almost beats them in in West Palm and to the almost immediate reaction in terms of what was said in that locker room afterward. Yeah. And then it is such a great moment. And I'm like fast forwarding through my book here because I would look to give you an

exact quote. But there was. So 83 Ryder Cup and, you know, America had never lost in home soil and they came awfully close that day. It ended where, you know, Lanny Watkins hit a great ship against Cana Zaris at the very end to win it and basically Europe was totally distraught in the locker room after.

And there's this moment where Sevi came in and he walked in and he sees everybody there, you know, basically looking, you know, down-tron, they weren't crying or anything, but they were really, really low. And he, the message he conveyed was essentially, this is not a failure. This is the start of something. You know, what we did here shows what's going on and we're going to win next time. But, you know, tears are streaming down his face as

he's giving the speech, he's marching around like a general. And these guys are completely swept up in the energy. There's nobody, you know, who's cynical about it or isn't listening to them. They're completely caught up in the energy. There's nobody, you know, who cynical about it or is it listening to them. They're completely caught up in the charisma of this man and they completely believe them. And you've had some really great things about seeing what makes the European environment unique.

Particularly at the Soulheim Cup, I think you saw it. You had a really good story there, which is actually in the book. But there is something about them where it almost feels like in the moments after a devastating loss, they somehow turned it into a victory in their minds. And then it goes forward. And what Sefi predicted does come to pass, where suddenly it's a new day. Well, I think it even, I feel like that phrase, we will beat them in 85, we'll beat them in 85, kind of trickles down into, I believe it's Sam Torrance says that in a press conference at some point because that's used in the intro of your podcast Run and like that just that just seems to me is where you know if we were to point at a certain time of things changing

It's right right after 83 if I had to pick a moment to wear like all right We're coming like there's a certain player here that has is changing the tide We have a captain that's changing the tide and a player that's changing the tide. And I think you also, and again, for people that aren't familiar with this book, the, you know, we said it mentioned the intro. It's called the Cup. They couldn't lose. It is not about the 2021 Ryder Cup or the 2020 Ryder Cup, where I don't know what it's officially called. It is a, I think I viewed it more of a history book about the Ryder Cup, the modern Ryder Cup. I think I viewed it more of a history book about the Ryder Cup, the modern Ryder Cup.

And I found the relationship between Sevy, Tony Jacqueline, the British PGA, the European tour, Lord Darby, all of this crazy stuff that goes on. I'm wondering if you can kind of lay out kind of what, you know, Sevy first playing on the team in 79, why he wasn't on the team in 81. Back on the team in 83, how that all happened. I know it's a long story, but if

you could give a bit of a history lesson on that. Yeah, and so the basic first of all like the foundational history is that it's used to be the UK. It didn't expand into Europe until 79 and America won all the time. I think UK the British team won twice in 50 years. And so that is sort of the history. And you've got this guy, Tony Jacqueline, who I, it's funny now, I don't know how you feel about this Chris, but I think the perception of Jacqueline, or he's mostly known for being a Ryder Cup captain at this point. I think what people forget is what a pioneer he was as a professional golfer. I mean, there were decades where no British golfer want to make your championship. And he's the one who broke that at the open. And

then he went and won a US open as well. So he was a really big deal, you know, Justin Rose when he won in Marion, thanks Tony Jacqueline, right? So his influence on not just the following generation of British golfer's, but even the ones today, you know, it continues on. He was a really important figure. He played in Ryder Cups, he had a famous moment in 69 with Le Jack Nicholas, the concession. And so he goes on, you know, he has a good career and then he kind of falls off after he loses a British open and open championship to Lietra Vino. And so he gets left off the team in 1981.

And it's a big insult to him because these two guys, Mark James and Ken Brown in 79 had gone over and really we're kind of like disrespecting everything. It's sort of hard to understand exactly what happened now. It doesn't sound that bad, but at the time it was appalling, right? And it was like this, you know,

they didn't go for the national anthem and they were kind of jerks about everything. And then the next year comes and they don't put Jacqueline on the team with a captain's pick. And they also don't put Sebi on the team because Sebi as part of being on the European tour, had started to want appearance fees

and he probably deserved them. And they said, for a while, they gave it to him and then they said, we're not doing that anymore. And that annoyed him, but it annoyed him even more when they still gave it to American players who came over. And basically Sevy's like, look, if I go, 50% more people are coming. I'm worth 50,000 pounds or whatever.

So this is the 81 comes, the US brings a really, really good team over to Walton Heath. I'm hope I'm getting that right. And absolutely decimates the European team. And so Jacqueline is pissed off, Sevy by a Starros is pissed off. The world in which the two of them are leading the team just two years after that is so far from being a reality at that point.

But what happens again, as I said, is they can't find sponsors, they can't find money, and they are having this big debate inside the British PGA and the European tour of, do we continue to award the cap to see as a sort of lifetime achievement thing, or do we pick someone more of the player's vintage, more of their generation who maybe can relate to them and maybe can turn this thing around. And it was a really, really profound debate. I think Bernard Langer was one of the big

ones who pushed for Tony Jacqueline. And so when they, when they approached Jacqueline, it was the summer before the 83 Ryder Cup or actually that spring. So, you know, now Ryder Cup captains have two years to prepare. They were getting the guy just months before it was actually that spring. So now Ryder Cup captains have two years to prepare. They were getting the guy just months before it was gonna happen. And his inclination was to say no, but instead he came with a list of demands that he thought they would say no to.

Like, I want to fly over in the Concord. I want to have beautiful facilities there, a nice locker room that we can be in. I want captains picks, and the litany just went on. And they said yes to everything. And he was like wow, well, the other thing I want is I want to say by estero and this guy, Lord Darby who you mentioned, he's like this very like, what Jaclyn tells it, like a very pompous, you know, member of the

landed gentry of Britain, a cousin to Queen Elizabeth, and you know, somebody who is just really too good, he wouldn't approach Tony Jaclyn to ask him if he would accept the cap and see. But once his underlings approached him and he said, yes, you had a conversation with them. And Jacqueline said, you know, what about Sevy? And his quote was, well, he's your problem now. And so then Jacqueline's mission then was to meet with Sevy and they did

before the open championship that year at the hotel, met with him, listened to him, cried because Sevy was really good at complaining for what sounds like an hour as their breakfast got cold. And then basically told him, like, I need you. I can't do this without you. And also, by the way, it's a good way to sort of increase your profile in the US,

in the UK, and all these other things that were kind of important to him. So he said yes, and then you had the ingredients for this writer cup team that would that would totally change history. I love Jacqueline's telling of that tale too. After all that, he said, okay, I helped. Okay. I hope. Yeah. What this may be a silly question after what, you know, we just kind of ran through, but who were who would you say are some of the most important people that you spent time with in the process of writing this book? And maybe it's a different category that

Tony Jacqueline goes in because it seems like that the time spent with him was, was pretty special. Yeah, that was great. One of my favorite conversations, it won't surprise you. It was Paul McGinley. You know, and it was funny because I talked to him right before the pandemic hit at the the day before at the players championship Or the day before it became a big deal and it already hit but you know Nobody understands. I think the strategy and the tactics of the rider cup quite like Paul McGinley and You know, he just laid it all on the line. He told me everything. He had read

I think the chapter I wrote about the rider cup in my previous book and kind of saw that I did my research or whatever. And so he for three hours we talked and he just told me everything. And you know, down to the minutia, little things, big things. So that was really cool because I think, you know, as good as Jacqueline was, the strategy and the tactics at that time were still pretty rudimentary compared to what they are now. And so he gave me a schooling on the modern modern Ryder Cup, what things are happening now, what that's like. I talked with Power of Carrington, I talked with Steve Stricker, funny with this book,

I did talk to a number of the players, but they weren't the most important, because of what you talked about. This is kind of an analysis of the Ryder Cup, a history of the Ryder Cup, and telling the story of it. And so the players are, you know, the cogs in the machine, they're really important and they do heroic things, but it's the guys behind the scenes, the guys leading it, that are really important. Davis loves another one. I don't think anybody cares about the writer cup as much as

Davis love. And over time, he has become incredibly smart about it. I would say, you know, and I want to pick your brain as to why, why you care about the writer cup as much as you do as someone who also, you know, I think we're maxing out the scale at which we can care about the writer cup. I must say after reading your book too, I had the clearest picture of what the task force and Davis love in particular were responsible for in changing of the culture on the American side. And I found that to that point, some of the things that Davis loves says are, you know, I think he's kind of almost somewhat famous for being a cookie cutter personality on the PGA tour, yet some of his things that I read about are the statements I read from him in the book are as clear cut and committed as any statements you get from any other person involved in it. Yeah, he's great. I mean, he was instrumental. You know, Phil Mickelson obviously is in the news from, you know, much different reasons now.

Phil was, you know, a very public engine of change because he's somebody who always wanted to win Ryder Cubs and what he did at Glen Eagles was really important after Tom Watson's disastrous caps and see, you know, he kind of attacked Watson but he also basically said, hey, we had Paul Azinger. We had Azinger in here showing us how to win.

What happened? Why didn't we stick with that tactic, those strategies that he had? And Davis Love was somebody who had listened to all Azinger. Well, he did Medina. There were a lot of similar things. There was the pods were there and all that kind of stuff. It just so happened that there was this flukish

miracle on Sunday where Europe comes back in wins. And then Ted Bishop comes back and wins. And then head bishop comes in and writing his horse and waving his hat and basically saying, you know, these guys, these guys are soft and they need somebody to whip them into shape. And we have to endure that whole load of bullshit with him in Tom Watson, where they think the pods are nonsense. The players are just soft. They need somebody who's strong and all of this stuff. And that was a nightmare, completely detached from reality, those guys.

So then after that happens though, that kind of then opens the door, gives the US permission to say, OK, what has worked in the past? What can we implement? And then how can we implement it in such a way that we learn every time we win, that we learn, every time we lose, that's called institutional memory. And so again again, a lot of it is stuff that is laid out, the pods, but it can go all the way down to these really granular details about, okay, when

do we want to have our team meetings? What's going to be the most convenient? You know, how do we, how many motivational speeches should we have? What are our players like? You know, like, what kind of food should there be? On and on, how are we going to do the course? How are we going to do the pairings? Who can we get to be our stats guys that can help us, you know, give an advantage when we're at home? On and on and on.

And the important thing is, once they opted to do that, then it was sort of inevitable that they would have success because they were committed to learning the truth about how this thing runs. And then just another example of what they do, there really isn't much difference anymore

between the president's cup team and the writer cup team. It's the same series of captains, the same series of people they're grooming as assistant and vice captains to become captains, and they get to learn from both things now. And it's just sort of like this weird, like biofeedback ecosystem or something where they just keep getting better and better.

And you know, I was somewhat skeptical of stricker going into this past rider cup. I think because in hindsight, it's a compliment. He kept things so close to the chest from a media perspective as far as all the stat stuff that was going on, all of the things that he placed importance on. I think I'm just maybe speaking of institutional energy or whatever you want to call it for the past, I am just prone to thinking that they're gonna do, they're gonna make huge mistakes.

It's a buddy system and that Phil is being considered for this team and the Kevin Kizner and Kevin Naw are playing really good down the stretch and they're being considered for the team where behind the scenes and burger kind of alludes to this at the Torchampion chip and says like, guys, the team's pretty much set. Like, we don't, we don't need this crazy, you know, change of plan at the end. Like, we have a plan.

Like, we have six captains picks. Like, there's a reason for that. Like, we want to be able to take control of this team. And again, you kind of spell all this out. The specifics of what the task force is responsible for being and again, it all seems obvious, but like a cap and C succession plan. So we don't have these little two-year phases where Ted Bishop can come in and say, you know, I do want to talk some Tom Watson in there, but so the Tom Watson situation doesn't happen, which I don't think is

Watson's fault. I think it's Ted Bishopishops fault. But current captains previously having been served as vice captains. A, you know, a recent captain head captain is now serving as a vice captain. The role of furec play this past year. Embracing statistics, fostering chemistry through small pod groups, reducing stress on players as much as possible, choosing players whose game fits the course, invest the players in the process of forming the team. Like all that makes so much sense. But as little as eight years ago, like practically none of that was in place, is that fair to say?

Totally fair to say. One of my favorite, like little anecdotes to show how far the US was behind, is that, you know, Jacqueline talks about in 85 when he has controlled the bell-free, slowing the greens down because the Americans were used to playing on faster greens, and then you know, lifting the rough up all the stuff that we see today, controlling the course, right? And so Azinger in his book and then when I talked to him, he told Carrie Hague at the PJ of America at Valhalla, I want to, you know, I want to manipulate this course to give this as best an advantage as we can. And Carrie Hague was like, wow, no American captain has ever asked to do that before. I'm like, I'm sorry, I talked to that 23 years ago and nobody caught on. I mean, you could hear people like Americans saying at the time, wow, they really manipulated the core. They really changed the course. It really made it hard for say that the Americans were just like too good, right? They were so used to being better than Europeans that every single Ryder Cup almost,

they came in with a better team on paper that to dane to strategize, to dane to like, have to like, you know, really get into the books and figure out how to beat these guys, it's almost like beneath them until things get so bad that then they begin to look at it. And luckily, you have the right guys in place. A quick break to check in with our friends at Roeback. I was absolutely stoked to see a fresh box on the front porch of the Kille House, ripped it open, found a bunch of polos, performance Q-Zips, performance hoodies from Roeback. We have had a great experience with them and after wearing them for a while,

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Go check them out and start 2022 off with some rowback. Let's get back to Shane Ryan. Help me refresh my memory on this one. I don't think it's in the book, but I feel like I've learned this, this quote from you at some point, but I don't remember which captain or which, you know, I believe it was something on the US side, but there was a, it talks about who should be the next captain blah, blah, blah. And someone involved in the process says something along the lines of, well, how important is winning the cup? Is this ringing

a bell at any point? That's interesting. Not really. No. I would. I'm not relaying the story very well at all. But to me, it always seemed like, you know, just rotating the captain, Willie and Ili every couple years is like, not the best strategy for winning. But like kind of both sides, you know, maybe did it a certain way and it seemed like it's a bit ceremonyous, right? You know, in terms of you deserve to be captain, you want a major blah blah blah, you're going to do this yet. It didn't really add up if you were trying to win. Like ideally, you would have like a Jerry Kalangelo, USA basketball model of like, hey, you're going to run this program and, you know, the coaches may cycle blah blah blah, but like, you're going to run this program and, you know, the coaches

may cycle blah, blah, blah, but like somebody's going to be dedicated this full time rather than just rotating former players in. And I don't, I don't have anywhere, I don't really have anywhere else going that other than I think there was at a time someone along the lines asked the question, like, well, again, how important is winning to it? And it feels like now winning it, this thing, it sounds obvious. It sounds crazy. Like, of course, it's always been important. But now it's like, no, no, no, no, no, we're taking this very seriously and this is about winning it.

It's right. And it, but it took somebody making the first leap into, you know, the tactical side of things, like with Jacqueline and Nicholas, even just like front loading that Sunday line up and Nicholas being shocked, right? It took that, yeah. It took that happening before any of this could change. Like it could have just gone on being ceremonial forever, except it couldn't have, right? Because the Ryder Cup wouldn't exist anymore. We wouldn't still be playing it

because it would be too boring. But yeah, Europe was in a position where they needed to do it. Europe needed to do this in order to compete. The US never did. And then finally, over decades, the US realized, oh crap, we need to do this. And they did it too. I mean, that is like, that's a very basic way to reduce the history of the Ryder Cup. One side needed to do it. And then the other

side did. And eventually they both did. Anyway, you know, to your point about striker, I had a similar thing. And I think it was still, I was stuck in some old ideas with striker, particularly, I was like, he's not very charismatic. Yes. And that was something that struck me. But then, you know, the truth is, and what Stricker knew, these guys don't need a charismatic figure. These Americans don't need it.

They don't need to be pumped up. We get confused because every time Europe releases these motivational videos, and some of them are pretty cool. And some of them seem cheesy to me, but even the cheesy ones, like a lot of people like, and it's all the old captains going, you're a peon or like, in a row, it's like, Sam Torrance saying, guys all the time, they're getting bored more dramatic too, as the years go on. But it works for them. It works for those players. And they need that. And they like it. And it means it's meaningful to them.

Whereas like you get guys like Justin Thomas or Speed or Scotty Sheffler, they're I think they're more prone to scoff at it. And I don't know why this is the case. I don't know what makes them different. But it's important to realize, you know, that you need American solutions to the problem. Right. And I think for a long time,

very, very tempting to have European solutions to the problem. But that doesn't work. But striker knew, you know, we don't need motivational speeches. We don't need to have these videos. In fact, it lest the better because he hated them when he was playing. And so that's like something that he was good at. And it didn't matter that he really couldn't give a speech without, you know, crying or whatever. And he couldn't. And so I think he's smarter than people gave him credit for. Certainly than people gave him credit for. Certainly than I gave him credit for. I was one of the people who fell into the Kisner trap

this time that you were talking about where I was like, come on, Kisner's so good at the Ryder Cup. We need a panic move. We need to put somebody like that there. But I was like, no, he was so calm about it. Like, Stricker was like, look, it's fine that Kevin Kisner is playing well. But I know people like Scotty Schaeffler

are gonna be much better for, of course, like, Whistling Straits. That's why I'm not the leader and he is I mean that was like a smart move And he every step of the way he kind of had his finger on the pulse that way Well, and it's another thing too that like a traditional way of thinking of playing better is you know Winning it like Kevin Kusner won a tournament, right? So that means he's playing better right? Well the next week I think he was DFL or close to DFL at the next playoff weeks.

You can't just pick the top result and say, that's the guy we're gonna get at the Ryder Cup. You gotta look at the totality of how they perform, how it fits in with the team model, which I have no issues with how Kizner would fit into that, but how their games translate onto that golf course. That's why I thought it was a total non-starter. And I said a million times, like 2018

is a conversation that should have been had. And you kind of touch on the book there as well as to how things worked out so poorly for Jim Furik in terms of how the captains picks played out. And how he, I thought I agreed 100% with the four picks he made at the time in hindsight. I think I would go differently on all but one of them Yeah, even even that one like Fina was not a great great course fit And he was the only one that had a winning record of that group

But it just goes to show also a big reflection upon reading this as well as I think this rider cup goes differently if they're if a pandemic never happens I think COVID was way worse for Europeans than it was for Americans. Both travel wise, family wise, the fans not being there. A whole taxing year full of travel restrictions and different. It's just different. It was just different for them than the players that could just stay stateside for the entire year. And the way game cycle Jordan speed kind of finding his game in 21 and the way the teams kind of changed over from 2020 to 2021. It's like one of the only things that's like throwing a little cold water on the biggest beat down in modern Ryder Cup history for me.

Yeah, you know, and it's funny like Poverty Harr was, I think he was like a decent captain. The players really liked him. I think he made, you know, he goofed some things up, but he really expected more Europeans to be there. And I think he was shocked by just the fact of, and he shouldn't have been probably, but how difficult it was to get any fans in. And that's like such an advantage.

I mean, even just to have a few Europeans there would have made a big difference for them. I don't think big enough difference to win. Well, the other thing about it is, and this goes just into, you know, the difference in the captains. One thing that Stas have showed us is that captains picks perform better than people who make the team qualify at the bottom end, right? So let's say you have four captains picks, they're going to probably be better judged

over history than the guys who qualify six through eight on the bottom of the list. Steve Stricker knew that. And when the pandemic hit, he's smart enough, he used that to go from four captain spicks to six. And when the pandemic was over and they said, okay, we've got another year, well, not over, but you know what I mean, when we have another year to play up to the 2021 Ryder Cup, he kept the sick captain's picks. He didn't go backward, despite huge pressure from use golf facts on Twitter. But, you know, on the other hand, Poverty Harrington went down from four to three captain's picks, and his kind of thing was like, well, you know, people who are captain's picks feel a lot of pressure because they didn't make the team automatically. And simply not the case if you look at the numbers, but that pandemic worked against him in the

sense that it gave Stricker an excuse to do what he would have done. If there was no pandemic, he would have only had four captain's picks. Stricker, or sorry, Sheffler wouldn't probably be on the team. A lot of things would have been different, but yeah, even the accidental things of COVID ended up favoring the Americans. And it just these things, I, you know, it becomes more and more clear to me how much it comes down to depth. And, you know, we, a great example of this on the other side was Europe was deeper than the US in 2014. It was just, and Paul McGinley had the luxury of taking Graham McDowell, one of his best players, and saying, hey, you're going to babysit, Victor Dupesong in ForSums. And but what that, what that means is you're going to babysit. Victor, do we song in four sums? And

but what that what that means is you're going to be super fresh for singles. You're going to go out spank and blah, blah, blah, blah. That's a luxury that is was not afforded Patrick, Patrick Harrington. And it was a luxury that that Steve Stryker had, you know, in spades this go around with Scotty Sheffler. You're going to sit, you're going to sit for some. You're going to play for ball price and you're going to do that. And then you're going to be fresh for singles. And he goes out and smokes, John Rom. And I just think like, you know, depth can, you know, these things can change by the next go around. But if I'm Europe, the thing I'm concerned the most about is a core of US players that there's going to be some

cycles in and out this year. I mean, who knows what happens? A Bryson Fee now, Harris English, even burger this year. But like they have a core of six or seven guys and just a whole slew full of Sam Burns's and who knows Cameron Young's Max Holmas that are ready to play the death role. And I'm just, I don't know why you think about it, but I've just not seen that death on the European side. Yeah, and not at all. I think the biggest way you can tell is when you get

optimistic European people, and they're talking about like the hoi guards and they're throwing names at you. And I'm sure they're all good players, but it's so speculative that any of them are gonna ever be good, period, much less like in two years for Italy. And so you're like, oh boy, that's your best hope.

Like you're in trouble. You know, you got you're like, oh boy, if that's your best hope, like you're in trouble. You know, you got hovelin, Rory, Rom, you know, like maybe Fleetwood, like Fitzpatrick doesn't seem like he's that good in Ryder Cups yet. Yeah, and then it's just kind of like, once your old guard is gone, which most of them you figure would be by Italy, it's just big question marks everywhere.

And like you said, the US is just spoiled for it. And then you, you know, you hear someone like Max Homo yesterday talking about how like the writer cup and even said the president's cup. The president's cup is like this huge goal for him. These guys really care. And just like Sheffler, they're going to be happy to play whatever role they're told to play. They're not going to like be divas about having to play three out of the four sessions. If they get to play two alternate shots and then go and try to like poach a single's point, they're going to love that. And yeah, luxury is the right word for it. It's just it's just a really, really good situation. It felt like especially it kind of really clicked for me to read in the book thinking about how significant in hindsight the Sheffler

Pick was. It feels like an enormous, I don't think I'm overstating when I say it feels very transformative in terms of thinking back to Tom Watson and a text message from web Simpson ultimately deciding, you know, that he gets his way onto the team versus a rookie, a stroke's gain stalwart who hadn't yet won on the PGA tour, quiet personality, getting that call to get that 12th, that 12 spot instead of leaning on some a veteran of some kind or somebody that just really wanted to be on the team. And that's ignoring what has happened with Scotty Shuffler's career since that moment, which has been absolutely insane. But like having that level of talent as the 12th guy on the team is what's got me way over confident. Listen, was I way over confident after 2016. Of course, that didn't go great in France. But I'm wondering if you see it differently this time around as we look forward into Rome.

I see it differently. I see it or the same as you, I guess. I see it differently from Paris. I think, yeah, the Chefs of Thing was a great example. That makes me think like I wonder if Bill Haas would be a multi-time major winner now. If only Watson had picked him for the team. No, but yeah, so you look at Italy and it's, it's the ultimate hard thing to do to pick America to win in Europe when they haven't done it in 30 years.

But this seems like the time. It seems like the time is going to happen. They've got a system guy as Captain Zach Johnson. You know, he's going to be like a solid hand of the till, right? He's not going to screw anything up. He's going to bring everything they've learned. They're going to have, you know, stricker isn't assisted. They'll have Davis love there. I'm sure. And you're just spoiled for depth. And I just can't get over that I think Paris was fundamentally one of the most unlucky rider

cups for Furek in terms of the timing, which is not going to be the case anymore. They had to come over the next week. We talked about the captain's picks. Tiger was dead tired. Phil and Bryson were awful for the course as it happened. Things just went wrong from the beginning in a really strange way. That I don't think was definitely not fear. And I also don't think is repeatable.

So. If we look at Hazelteen and Wistley Straits and how well the US did then, and we think of Paris as maybe an anomaly, and now I know I get, I'm picking and choosing things that fit my narrative, and narrative being that they're going to win in Italy. But I think there is, like, again, it's going to sound hollow until it actually happens, but I personally believe they're going to win in Italy. The only thing that gives me hesitation is quite literally like, well, gosh, we've been favored so many times before

and gone over to Europe and shot the bed. But like I think again in your book, you do such a great job of, let's, like, why was that? Why did this happen? Like, what are some of the specifics of how this happened? And one of the things that you talk about that, honestly, this is the best,

the best light I've seen shine on it. I, as a huge stats nerd myself, I don't think I say that, I probably don't know 1% of what goes into how they do their modeling, but it seemed like it was as convincing as anything on strikers process and the US teams process in general. How much their statistical process has evolved?

When did that transition or decision on their end happen to say like, we are way underperforming on the statistical front or in the analysis front. This needs to change now. And you're my when did that happen? 20s, they were with a task force. And it was beginning was using stats in 2014. But this is one where they weren't that far behind Europe. Daren Clark was the first one to use their group, which is called the 21st group, which is called the 21st

group, which comes from English Premier League Soccer. They hired them in 2016 at Hazeltine to be part of their staff. By then, Scouts Consulting, which is the American group run by Jason Aquina, who by the way, if you ever get a chance to talk to him, really, really not. This is someone who, as a kid, would be taping writer cup press conferences and watching him so much that the tape would disappear. Like really one of the most writer cup obsessive people, I think probably in the world. But he, you know, he became a, as you read, he became like a military, uh, analyst, and eventually went out on his own and got hired by these guys to do their stats for them. And not just stats, but all

kinds of analysis and consulting work. And yeah, so that started a little bit at Hazeltein and they were really good at Hazeltein and Davis level is really impressed with them. So they had a bigger role in Paris at the same time that the 21st group did a really, really good job in Paris, figuring out how to set the course up, the pairings to make like Molinari Fleetwood, that was them, right? That wouldn't have occurred to anyone. They were the ones where like green means go. This is going to be a really good pair. And then they had the biggest role yet. Scouts consulting for the Americans that whistle straight. So the point that they're basically sitting in the captain's meetings with all the captains.

So yeah, that's a task force thing. People give actually Phil Mickelson again, credit for that. He was one of the people who was like, we need to figure out the analytics part of this stuff. And so, yeah, recent, but a really, really big addition, especially with all that Europe has, you needed that. You needed a counterbalance to that. Yeah, at the same time, it seems like they are, they're not saying this is what the computer's spitting out. This is what we're going to do, right. Dustin Johnson and Colin Moorakawa was not jumping off the page at them statistically but they said you know kind of we know we're bucking the trend here but with good reason blah blah blah and they pressed the right buttons in this past year I mean that's it's I don't know it I have more and more it's not like it's not like this book is filled with just you know reckless or relentless hype it just it's, it's like specific

to the process, right? And I kind of want to backtrack a little bit too of like what I mentioned earlier saying, I, the only thing that has me, I fear about when it comes to Rome is just like the uncertainty of like, we haven't done this in forever. And two, like, it just has happened way too many times where I get that gut feel.

It's like, oh, when they get down five, three, it's like, oh my god, it happened again's like, oh, my God, it happened again. I didn't see it coming and it happened again. What you kind of take them step by step and I'm wondering what you want to lead with here in terms of you go, you throw out six or seven theories as to why the European dominance has been so strong over so many years and kind of pick them apart one by one. What what really jumps out to you? In terms of like the false ones, there's a lot there.

And there's some I've been tempted by, like the idea that, you know, Europe is a more socialistic culture. So they're stronger. And that to me was like, you know, as someone with like a political mind, it was like, oh, yeah, that's really, really persuasive, you know, it's really seductive kind of line of reasoning. But then you're like, well, America does just find

a basketball or whatever the case is. Like there's other team sports where we win. I don't think we're worst teammates or anything like that. There's things, the original thing, which actually, I think most people have discredited by now and nobody really says it is, hey, we just needed to play better. That's like the rudimentary sort of like

very simple-minded thing to say, hey, it's just a small sample size when you need to play better. Europeans play better under pressure. That's obviously not true. More Americans would major. So you go on and on, and I think what it comes down to,

is just basically, they found the strategy faster than the Americans did. And if you look at it from a really detached perspective, again, you can just say it's a case of historical necessity. They had to find the strategy to win in America because America was already winning based on their talent advantage. It would just be like of some kind of military thing, right?

Where you're like, if you were the, like the stronger military you had more people and better weapons, you would be more likely to be outstratigized in the beginning because you're used to winning. Europe has had better leadership, I think, is the last theory that I said there, theory seven. And to me, that's the decisive factor. That's been it. And that's not true anymore. There's one point, I'll spoil a dramatic line in the book, but basically, I think you and I, and probably a lot of other people while Europe was winning, we're thinking, what if you took their tactics, what if you took their leadership and put it on the American team?

What if you added the really great leadership, we'd disappear your talent. What would happen? And the answer is, what happened at Whistling Straits, that 1999 blowout, and that's, I think why there's room for hope. I will say this, to add to your hesitation, it's really hard, I think, for golfers to play with a hostile crowd. I just think that is like a fundamental truth. They're not used to doing it.

It's hard for anybody in any sport, maybe a little harder. And that kind of thing is like, we talk about what will give us pause. That for me is one of them where it's like, they still gotta go in there with like a bunch of screaming drunken singing Europeans in their face for three days and win. Maybe that's maybe that's something to to kind of consider too. Yeah, I mean it's granted that you know they only have this thing every

two years and there's been two one-year delays within that but there's only been two away teams that have won going all the way back to Valderama. And that's, you know, that's at Oakland Hills in 04 and that's at Medina in 2012 and the home teams have won every one, every other one since then. If I'm remembering right, I'm I'm I don't think I'm missing one in there. No, because Valderama was the Europeans and Brookline and then, uh, yeah, 0206 in Europe of four in Oakland Hills. Obviously, was the exception. And yeah, then since, uh, since Valhalla, Medina's been the only exception. And it seems to be stretching out more and more. I mean, the close there was close ones in 2010 and in 2012. And then since then, it's just been home teams just kind of dominating. And I am,

you know, one thing that kind of looking back at it too and reading about the picks and how they've come together, it really does sound like Patrick Reed is out from all future teams, barring an automatic qualification. And I still can't believe that Tiger took him at role Melbourne after what happened in Paris, but it seems like they're not even being that secretive about the fact that he does not fit in with this team anymore. Yeah, and that's the thing with Tiger is it's like the way to look at it is, okay, well, he's getting another chance after Paris. To me too, it seemed like Paris was going to be the end of the story. What happens when you give him another chance? He just embarrasses you twice, really.

The first time with the Bahamas stuff and then with his caddy getting in a fist fight with a fan in Australia. I don't know if I said this in the book or not, but at one point, to me, it was going to be so interesting to see if Stricker would give him a pick. And I thought not, but then when he gets sick, it kind of takes the drama away, right? Because it's like, he's got a built-in excuse. If he didn't want to or if you wish you watched,

so you can't look at him not taking read and say anything decisive about it, which is a shame because I wanted it to come to a head and feel like, is this guy on the out-sort-not? But anyway, I texted Stricker just for the heck of it, very late in the writing process and said, you know, I spoke with Stricker a handful of times. I don't want to give a wrong impression

that he and I were like buddies for anything. So for me, the Texan was kind of like taking a leap. And as just said, you know, would you have taken read if he had been healthy? And he wrote back, I'd rather not answer that question with a winking emoji. So like, yeah, I think there, I think that's a clear answer, isn't it? It kind of depends how you interpret it, but I don't think he's

going to be picked. I think they learned their lesson in Australia. And Stryker was right there to see it. And it's just bad news. I think it goes back to we listed out the seven or eight things that the task force is, you know, and the last one among that was, you know, the team be also feeling responsible, you know, the team also feeling responsible for who fills out the team. And there can't be one single guy. I mean, I guess I know Tiger and P have a have a weird relationship in that regard. And that would have been, you know, that was maybe two things just aligned to perfectly

for Reed to, you know, to get selected by Captain Tiger in the 2019 Presidents Cup. But I don't think there's another guy in that locker room. It's going to swear off on that. And from sources I have that are close to that team as well, that's the sense I get as well. Yeah, and you would know you would have far closer sources than I would. So yeah, they're saying that I think that's as close as you're going to get to affirmation of that.

But he just is a strange guy. And I think, yeah, I think they understand. it's pretty easy to have a good chemistry on these teams. Most of the guys you're going to want are going to fall in line, even having Bryce in there wasn't that bad. But there is one person where if he doesn't win every single match, he's just not worth it. And in Paris and Australia, he didn't win his Paris matches. So what are you taking him for anymore? Well, of course, we have of course, Tiger apologized to be for how bad he played,

even though we reached out about 84 that day. But that's what read a ledges that the Tiger apology. Yeah, yeah, right. I'm sure he came up and I'm bending. Yeah. How will history look back on the press conference after the 2014 Ryder Cup? Has that changed at all over the last eight years? Yeah, I just think, you know, Phil Mickelson will always be this respected figure for it and nothing will ever touch us like this. No.

You know, just viewing just what happened there, though, ignoring what has happened. No sense. And what's happened with the Ryder Cup? Has that changed in your mind? In terms of how it was perceived at the time? Yeah, I just wonder if, you know, how you perceived it at the time and how people in general, I know you can't speak for everyone,

but. Oh, no, yeah, it's a good question. I think at the time, from my memory, it was a pretty like stark debate. I think people were really torn on whether this was something that was necessary, or if it was just an insult to a legend of the game. And I think it was probably both, but I do think it was necessary. And I think, yeah, I don't think, I think as America gets better in the task force,

you know, when that was originally launched, it was a punch line because it's just kind of a funny self-important name task force. But as that becomes, you know, through the historical rear view mirror, we see what it accomplished and what it's doing. I think people more and more see 2014, you know, the press conference as something maybe that had to happen and maybe was inevitable. I don't think it's going to become worse with hindsight would be my

guess. Yeah, I think as time goes on, and if you read it really closely, it is, it does dig at Tom, but again, I still maintain that it was not Tom's fault. It is Tom was brought in to do to be exactly what he was. It was a mistake to put him in that spot. And that is what Phil is calling out. And you know, even, even Tom's response to it, like he sees differently. I think we, you know, it's not about pods. It's about 12 players. Like, dude, you're totally missing the point. Like you've totally completely missed the point. And you are part of an era that was just different talent wise and they could get buy on all the stuff. And this, this part of the game has passed you by and you're not connected with these players. You should not be in charge. And like, that's not your fault,

but this is, this cannot happen again. And I found it interesting too. You, you include a tweet from Lee Westwood about, you know, the Europeans were piling on when the task force was formed. And since the task force has been formed, the US is two in one. Granted, they've had two home ones. But it's going to look really all of a sudden, if they, if they're able to flip Rome and Beth Page looking really, really, really, really good for the US as of right now. It's going to be, and if Lee Westwood's off in the Saudi tour and, and, you know, instead, and not sticking around for, for what's, what is looks like is on the horizon.

It's going to be a little interesting footnote in history. And I'm all for remembering that Lee West would quote, because I did a tweet that was about Robert McIntyre when he was like making waves last year at the match play, where I was like, you know, say what you want about Robert McIntyre when he was like making waves last year at the match play, where I was like, you know, say what you want about Robert McIntyre. I think you love when you do these. He's great to have a villain in the game. And Lee West would quote tweeted me, it was like, what is this clown saying? And went back and forth with me and all these like British people were screaming and yelling about me for calling Robert McIntyre a villain. And in the middle

of that, I was like, Lee, how about a one-on-one interview? I'm writing a book about the Ryder Cup. And he's like, not bloody likely or whatever. And I was like, I was just like, oh, man, what a humorless, like, anyway, the fact that he's going to the Saudis, like, you know, I'm like, confirms like he's a bad person for attacking me on Twitter. But rest assured, I will remember his task force tweet and throw it back at his face if it becomes more and more comic with time.

I think that you've done this. You've done that tweet a couple of times now or it's my favorite. When you do it, I think at what point I replied like, Hey, 2015 Twitter would have absolutely loved this one because it was it was a fun website back then. And you could make jokes and people got it. And now everything is just way, way, way too self serious. But I don't mean to pile on Tom Watson, but you know, it may be I just need to separate out this next question from it.

But what makes a bad captain? And I say that through the lens of like holy shit, listen to your 2014 episode, I honestly kind of forgot how bad he was. It's a captain, but I hate, I hate saying this guy lost. He's a bad captain. Not a lot of people are saying that about Padre Harrington, but like there are things, you know, a bad captain does. What are those things? Yeah, those things are, first of all, if you have a system in place that's been successful, deviating from that system makes you a bad captain. We saw that Nick Fowldo is probably the most

famous example of somebody who was riding a tide of unbelievable European success. They had just won by nine points two times in a row and he had his own thing going and it was a nightmare because he was too arrogant. So, I think he do specifically though, for those that aren't his for me. Yeah, yeah, sure, sure. So, you know, it was essentially just not preparing and being too arrogant to prepare that the template that we understand from the Europeans is all

the same stuff we said about the Americans that they've done. But basically having these really attentive captains who for two years are preparing, getting to know their people, studying them. Bernard Langer was a great example of somebody who was like in constant communication throughout his year and a half before the Ryder Cup, sending out surveys to people to know who they want to play with, being really attentive about, if you're at home, which Faldon wasn't figuring out how to make your course the right way, paying attention to captain's picks,

and then bonding with people, trying to bond with them over time. Faldon did none of this. Faldon basically rolled into Kentucky at the last minute and thought he might come and win because the US had a weak team. So that's one thing you can do is deviate from a good system. If you don't have a good system, which we've seen with Americans in the past, you're already up against, you're already up against the eight ball a little bit, but not having a coherent plan really and backup plans like A's anger with somebody who came at a really bad time for the US writer cup and didn't have a particularly strong team.

However, he had this really, really solid plan that he had envisioned for a long time because he thought about the writer cup non-stop. He implemented it, he had the charisma and the leadership abilities to make this work. He got the team invested. So having a plan is important, even if it turns out not to be enough to win.

And the other thing a bad captain can do beyond being arrogant and not having a plan is to not make any effort to understand his players. And I think Watson, you would file him under that of somebody who just never attempted to understand what the new generation was like and why maybe they would respond to the old stern ways or whatever.

So those are just a couple of things. And then you could get down into the granular stuff of ignoring like pop power Carrington nobody's saying he's a bad captain. However, at this point in the time in the rider cup, you have to know that captains picks are good and having more captains picks is better. You have to know what balls your players are going to play. You can't be surprised by that the week of that you're going to play in the Ryder Cup. You should have them practice at Whistling Straits in the week leading up and not scramble them around and then tell people it's because Oh, I wanted to preserve some mystery for the day of the day. That was bizarre. It's so insane. You can't do that.

Like, and so I'm not saying he was a bad captain. All those people love him. I don't think any of this would have changed the outcome at Whistling Straits, but those are some examples of you got to be smarter than that. It's not rocket science. That's where I still go back to with with Harrington when you're that outgunned. You're almost you're choosing between a bunch of bad options and it can look even more silly when you don't have a bunch of things you can toggle around and and he did not have

the luxuries that that's trick or had, but it's we just said that unprepared and and arrogant about that about Fowdo that I don't get that at all from watching him on television for the past 15 to 20 years at all. I don't that's that's not all how I describe his approach to that, but very controversial to call Nick Fowdo arrogant. There's going to take a lot of flack from the Fowdo it's on Twitter, which is an also just looking at that. Oh, eight roster on the US side.

It's almost like, you know, Zing there's approach kind of only could have worked if they were if the US was in as dire of a straits as they were in terms of getting signed off on, right? Coming off losing three rider cups, but two by the worst margin ever. And you know, no tiger on that team and having it's a, it's kind of a joke of a roster.

If you look back at it, like I don't know if he could have gotten away with kind of that model. If that had if they weren't, you know, in that dire of straits. And there's a lot of parallels to Jack where he had this meeting with the PJ of America saying like, I want to, you know, the qualifications system to be different. I only want it to be the year of the Ryder Cup. I want, you know, the power. I want more captain's picks. I want four instead of two. And these things that

they said, you know, they buy into it. They're like, yeah, of course. And like you said, can't happen probably if they're winning the last three or something like that, but things are so bad that they weren't. I think it just clicked for me. The awkward question I asked earlier about who said, how badly do you want to win? I think that Zinger said that on our podcast actually when he was talking to DJ of America folks about putting that strategy together or what kind of captain you wanted that it just Now I might not be remembering that right, but I think that just clicked for me. It definitely sounds like him. Yeah, it sounds like Something like he's unlike striker. He's like a really charismatic kind of guy who can like talk to people that way. So I can definitely see him doing that. The one quick funny thing about that team too,

is as weird and bad as the roster looked on paper, then when he let the pods make their own captains picks, it worked even worse. Like the captains think they picked, we're not the logical ones to bolster the team. I love like, I think it was in his book, Cracking the Code, where he was like, Johnny Miller went on TV and said he wouldn't

depict any of those guys. But it worked, right? And it's not, the rider comes a whole different beast and it was a really good plan and it worked. Steve's trick or Hunter Mayhan, JB Holmes and Chad Campbell, Stricker Mayhan and Holmes were all rookies. Chad Campbell had a one, three and two record going into it. But then Hunter Mayhem comes out.

He plays five matches goes two, oh, and three. Stryker goes oh, two and one. Chad Campbell goes two and one and JB Holmes goes two, oh, two, oh, and one. So they were pretty much the difference makers. Just because I know he's been getting hammered on this, but just just for support, can we revisit some of the some of the stuff that went out of the 2014 Radar Cup that was quite the comedy of errors that was the Capitzi of Watson because DJ DJ texted me as soon as he listened to the 2014 episode. He's like you got to listen to this

Watson's even worse than we remember Yeah, absolutely She's just one thing after another I Don't know what your favorite is mine might be the Saturday night meeting. Yes, that's good. Where he just like, he reads the room completely incorrectly. I they're down 10, 6 at that point. And he starts thinking that the really smart, funny or good thing to do is to go to the European singles lineup

and just insult them. Like he's an insult comment. It's just going down the line and insulting them. And then they give him a like this replica of a rideder Cup trophy that they've all signed and he's basically like, I want the real thing boys. And it's all it's like such a it's almost a tragic story because you can see what he's going for and it's just it's just so misplaced in time. But yeah, that was a fun one. I don't know. You guys think it four sums. That's great. He starts starts with that one. And then mangling the Reed speed pairing and going with Ricky and Jimmy Walker for their fourth

straight match when they were obviously gasped and pairing up guys that hadn't played together. I think did did. Did Furek and Hunter Mayhand play all shot or something together that week? And they weren't supposed to or Mayhand hadn't prepared for that. I think there was a future pairing too that was just sort of out of left field. That wasn't what they were waiting for. Yeah, you know, and it's really funny with these things because that speed read decision in particular, their afternoons were disasters, right? So they both mornings they did pretty well on Friday and Saturday. Then I think it was three and a half to a half point each afternoon that you're appointed by. That's something where you're like, boy, I wonder what happens if the dominoes start to fall if you have spieth and read there.

Maybe some other guys are in different positions. Maybe the right group is left off. Maybe they leave that first day with a lead, right? I mean, it's just, there's all this stuff where you go. That actually might have been bigger than we think. I actually think that about Whistling Strait sometimes and I think I'm wrong about this but I have that thought once in a while of if they hadn't screwed up the ball the asco if they hadn't had to that the last minute switch up all their alternate shots they were down right away and being down right away made them desperate and panicky and had to make these crazy line of decisions that fed right into stricker. What if they're too too at the end of the first session? How different could it look? I don't know. Probably the answer is not very different. But anyway, yeah, that's spetan reading

in particular. I would kill to know the alternate timeline. What would happen if they played in that afternoon? Because I don't think they were going to lose. I mean, those guys were so fired up. And what a buzz kill. Not just for them, but the entire team to tell them that they're going to sit. Yeah. And then Phil sits for the whole day on Saturday, kind of unexpectedly. They just seem like there was just no game plan, right? Just got punched in the mouth and just kind of threw everything else out the window. And it's a fascinating, fascinating one to revisit. One other thing I wanted to chat with you about was, you know, this concept, you mentioned it earlier about dispelling the notion of just playing better, right? Which I've, I've subscribed to for a long time, like, hey, like straight up, like the Americans

are not playing good golf in this, right? It's not always the responsibility of the captain, you know, to magically press the right buttons for pairings, but there is, there are responsibilities the captain can have to put his players in the best position to play their best golf. That sounds like a theory that you kind of subscribe to. And I think it kind of what you included in the book from what I said on the podcast from the Soulheim Cup was a team environment that it comes from a place of team support versus a bunch of individuals that really want it very badly.

They just want to do it in their own way. Seems to drag Americans down, you know, has in the past seem to drag the Americans down the Ryder Cup side. And that's what I felt like I saw the Soulheim Cup. And the European support system seems to give a rise to unheralded players or less heralded players. Do you think I'm on to something with that? Do you see that as well?

Is that a theory you subscribe to? Definitely, yeah. And that's why I mean, I thought the way you put that in your podcast, I actually remember where I was when I was listening to it. I was driving to Whistling Straits for one of my researches trips and listening to that. It was just like, ban, that's it.

And you got to go right into the locker room and see this. I like the dancing thing. Yeah, whereas if somebody wasn't out in dancing, somebody else from that European team would drag them in. There was nobody left behind. And that's the sort of collective atmosphere they have.

And it does. It gives them a little bit of an advantage, I think. And in some cases, a big advantage. I'm trying to get my brain back on track. The question was, you know, just this theory of like, you know, again, we've tried, we've said so many riders come, so we walk away like trying to get my brain back on track. The question was, you know, just this this theory of like, you know, again We've tried we've said so many riders comes we walk away like trying to solve why this American team better on paper You know doesn't play as well or doesn't succeed as well

I do not want to put that all at the feet of the captains It's not like the captain's just put made bad moves I don't want to put it straight on the players like hey you guys need to play better But it does seem like there is it's it's just it took forever for it to click for me in terms of like having, you know, when you need to play your best golf and need to come through in a moment, the idea of I'm going to go do this for my team versus like, holy crap, like I'm feeling so much pressure on this. The reaction should be incredibly natural to both of those two things. Exactly. Yeah. And so, yeah, there are a few things. And we talked about American solutions

for American problems, right? So the pods, I think, were just a stroke of genius because how do you achieve that comfort and that team feeling and that security to go out and play your best under pressure if you don't have guys who maybe are as naturally inclined as the Europeans to have this sort of kumbaya feeling, even if they hate each other

in the rest of life, you can still have Darren Clark and Colin Montgomery walking arm and arm down a fairway, things that you're not really going to see from guys who don't love each other with the Americans. And the answer was smaller groups that fit based on personality types and game types together. So that's like a really good solution. Another thing that the US didn't do forever,

and how Sutton was really guilty of this was giving people time to know what's going to happen and so that they are ready and prepared when the thing happens. I think golfers are a very unique brand of sort of, you know, anal or they really want to know what they're gonna do. They like a plan, they don't like surprises.

And so like how Sutton, you know, can have this like what he thinks is a stroke of genius playing Phil and Tiger together in 04 and let them know like the day before. And so all the Sutton Phil has to run off and try to like acclimate to Tigers golf balls and everything. These things are bad. You know, like that is going to make people feel insecure and unprepared when the moment hits. And you're a padd that for the longest time. There's such good preparers. And now the US has a two. So yeah, those are some of the things. And I really do think it really comes largely down

to preparation and knowing the personality of your team. And that again, going back to the striker, like knowing that, you know, the less we can ask these guys to do the better. If they can go hit and then go take a nap and then go work out, like that's all they want to do, right? They don't want to like have a dinner together. They don't want to sign a million autographs. And you know, that's the psychological part that I think is really important. Yeah. And you talked about that

in there too, as well as house trick or manage to navigate the the Keppka, not necessarily the Keppka Bryson minefield there, but honestly, the Keppka interview leading up into it kind of was it's it. I mean, who knows if people outside the golf Twitter road actually cared about it, but it kind of sent golf Twitter into a stereo in terms of like, just as line in there where he says, like, you know, sometimes it's like, I want my match, what else do you want me to do?

And in line with what we had just seen at the Soulheim couples, like, dude, like, that's the whole thing, right there. Like, what do you want me to do? Like, dude, like, I'm not saying, like, if you go out and cheer on so and so that they're going to play better golf, but the idea that like, hey, I'm going to sell out for my team, get my point, and then I have other roles to fill on this team as well is what they have done so well on the other side. I

think there's enormous talent gap in this past year that may cover up some of those warts, but it seems like for the majority of this US team, they seem to understand that. And it's like, what you saw and what makes people, even some Americans cheer for the Europeans, is that it's a more romantic story about how you win on the European side. First of all, you're the underdog, which is, you know, nobody roots for like Goliath, right?

But the thing is, it's like, how you come together, like the moment you witness in the locker room, this almost like symbiosis, this European thing where it's passionate, and have motivational videos and it's nice and we can overcome the giant. That's a great story saying, you know, we're going to win by like letting the guys take naps and they don't really, they don't really like to hang out in a group so we're going to make the group smaller because that's kind of what they like. That's like, it's not that fun a story, right? I mean, and that's, and that's ultimately

the thing of like writing this book, I think it's interesting to tell one time of like, this is how they did it. And I think it's really brilliant and all that. But it's really in the way that like the German soccer team would beat the like flamboyant Dutch team in the in the World Cup, right? It's not the thing that's like the sexy story. It's the boring clinical, this is how we take more talent and we implement a system that destroys you bit by bit.

And that's the reality of it. I mean, that's what they had to do, but it's not the same thing. It's not fun. Yeah, I'm curious as to what the next chess moves are, right? Because I quite this a little bit to just analytics and basketball or really analytics movements in any sport, right? Where the Houston Rockets kind of, I, I, I quit this a little bit to just analytics and basketball or really analytics movements in any sport, right?

Where, you know, the Houston Rockets kind of changed the way shots were created and chosen from. And they had an advantage there for a while. Nobody needed to change until they change. And then everybody ends up kind of shifting that way. And like you could, like going back to the 90s, all these gollas and, and cookouts. And like the enormous kind of showcase that this event was

when both sides were kind of doing it and doing things the same way, it didn't really matter that there weren't analytics movements. But once Europe starts doing this, you have to counter or you are losing significant significant ground. So what is the next chess move that either these sides can play and listen to Harrington's quotes about, you know, everything we've done, they've copied us. So from leave, from leave Westwood saying like, oh, they've been a task force to like, oh, I'm scared or whatever his quote was to like two Ryder cups later. I guess three Ryder cups later be on like, hey, they've copied everything. Like, what are we supposed to do? It's kind of jarring.

It is. It's like a life comes at you fast. Yeah. Like those two things set back to back. Yeah. Like, what is the next chest move? That's a great question. You do reach a point of saturation almost where you get like I think I you probably read the book and I may have told you, you know, and me thinking like, what could that possibly be? And him talking about food and transportation and things like that. So yeah, I guess you can really get into the little details of like how do we even smooth over these little things that make life easier for the players. But in terms of the big chest moves and the big strategic things, you're starting to get to a point where you kind of throw your hands up and go, you've figured out basically everything. And then you start to wonder, the thing you talked about earlier of the home team having such an advantage, if we do go a couple more rider cups with that, I wonder at some point, if a neutral party sets up the courses, if they stop letting the teams manipulate them,

it would kind of be a shame, but also you do have to protect the product a little bit, if you keep getting 17 and a half to 11 and a half or whatever it is. Yeah. No, I'm in agreement with that. Send in you out on this one. What, uh, what happens in Rome?

I know you touched on it earlier, but you think this is this is the one that gets flipped. It's going to be the most exciting Ryder Cup. We've seen in our lifetimes because I think we're at that point where, you know, I think a lot of us probably thought Paris was that too, but I think now we really think at 1513 US, I think it's that kind of thing. I respect the Europeans that much that I see this team is better, the US team is quite better. And I think Europe could be in real trouble in terms of who's on the roster in two years, but the home crowd is big. And they just, there's just a lot of pride and they're not going to give up so easy. So I think in narrow US victory right now seems to me in the cards. I may have a different answer in the week of Italy.

The book is called the cup. They couldn't lose. Can you give us your I think we I think we've made a great advertisement for it in this podcast. But if you give us your final pitch as to why anything we didn't cover here is to, it's why somebody might enjoy this book. Yeah, no, I think we've covered it all. You don't need to buy the book anymore. No. No, I think it's a really, you know, this, if you love the writer cup and you love golf, I think there's a lot of good stories in there about the various personalities involved. And I think just from a historical angle,

I think it's one of the best sports stories there is, the writer cup. And I've always felt that way. The romance of each individual Ryder Cup somehow stays when you look at the romance of the longer arc of history. And I just think it's a great story. And I hope I did a good job telling it.

And that's my pitch. You know, if you like that and you're interested in what you heard here, I think you'll probably like the book. Tell me the Ryder Cup run podcast is gonna continue on with future episodes. Absolutely, I'm going this week. I'm going to get 2008 out. Yes.

I'm almost done writing it. And I'm going to keep it going. Love it, love it. So, well, Shane, thanks so much for the time and telling some stories and spoiling some stories from the book. Another audience greatly appreciates it and I greatly enjoyed it.

So thank you and we'll do it again soon, my friend. It was awesome. Thanks a lot, Chris. You bet. It's a good advice for me. Be the right club today. Yes! That is better than most. How about in?

That is better than most. Better than most. Expect anything different? I'm gonna go. I'm gonna go. I'm gonna go. I'm gonna go. I'm gonna go.

I'm gonna go. I'm gonna go. I'm gonna go. I'm gonna go. I'm gonna go. I'm gonna go. I'm gonna go. I'm gonna go.

I'm gonna go. I'm gonna go. I'm gonna go. I'm gonna go. I'm gonna go. I'm gonna go. I'm gonna go. I'm gonna go.

I'm gonna go. I'm gonna go. I'm gonna go. I'm gonna go. I'm gonna go. I'm gonna go. I'm gonna go. I'm gonna go.