No Laying Up - Golf Podcast - NLU Podcast, Episode 553: Alan Shipnuck on "Phil"

Episode Date: May 12, 2022

A bonus midweek pod this week as we're joined by Alan Shipnuck, author of Phil: The Rip-Roaring (and Unauthorised!) Biography of Golf’s Most Colorful Superstar.  We take a deep dive into the enormously complex character that is Phil Mickelson - the generational golf talent, thrilling victories and shattering defeats, off course philanthropy and gambling debts - all punctuated by his recent involvement with the the Saudi Arabian backed LIV golf tour.  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

I'm going to be the right club today. Yes! That is better than most. That is better than most. Better than most. Phil Mickelson, which was just a roaring read. It was fantastic. If you'll be able to tell very quickly in the course of this interview how much I enjoyed the book and very much encouraged that you go out and get it. It is and met the hype, lived up to everything. I thought it would be.

It's a great tale of his career. And again, we talk about all that. I don't need to spoil this interview, which also spoils some of the book. Go check it out. Today's episode is brought to you by our friends at Woop, the personalized digital fitness and health coach and official fitness wearable of the PGA and LPGA tours. You can monitor your recovery, sleep, training and health with personalized recommendations and coaching feedback from Woop.

Got back from my US Open locals yesterday. I was in a crappy mood. I just felt more exhausted than I think I can ever remember feeling at any point here this year. Looked at my, at my WOOP, 20.3 strain for the day. Didn't get enough sleep the day before. I was about four hours behind and sleep dead. So, hmm, that would probably explain things. I'm glad I didn't see that before the qualifier. It didn't go very well. Anyways, no big deal. The all-new Ford Auto is smaller, smarter and designed with new biometric tracking,

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And right now, Woop is offering 15% off when you use code NLU15 at checkout. Go to Woop.com, whop.com, and or NLU15 at checkout to save 15%. Let's get to Alan shipnuck. Well, I don't know where this really starts when I say what of the last few months been like, but I think I mean sometime around, you know, the time that you kind of shook the golf world a little bit with something, a teaser for this book that you posted, I believe back in February. But so when I say what have the few last few months been like, where does that start? And then

yeah, what have they been like? They've been intense. I mean, for sure that you ordinarily would not drop an excerpt that far out from publication date. But that Saudi stuff was really coming to a boil. I mean, I was hearing from a lot of people in the game that they were days away from making the announcement of what the tour was going to look like and who might be involved and all of that. And the biggest question for over a year in professional golf was what does Phil want, you know, and really nobody knew as far among professional typists, except for me. And we could have saved all that for the book, but it sort of felt like, I don't know, malpractice. Like, the Oxford Bob Woodward does, you know, he sits on things and he saves them for publication. And I guess that that's one way of doing it. But I just felt like my ultimate job is as a truth teller and my allegiance is to

the readers. And this was such an important piece of the puzzle where Phil fit into all these different negotiations, secret and otherwise. And he's working both sides of street. And even with his very strong misgivings and it's like, you know what? We just got a release this to the world. And so it took some convincing with the publisher because they're like, man, it's for still three months out

from the book drops. But I just felt an obligation, you know, like, I'm not one to sit on something that big. And so, so yeah, once one to that, that excerpt hit and then obviously filled in to exile. And it's been, it's definitely affected my sleep. I mean, there's, there's just a lot of energy around this. There's a lot of, a lot of jitters, you know, as we're taping this, we still don't know if it feels like I can even show up in Tulsa. I mean, there's there's just a lot of energy around this. There's a lot of a lot of jitters. You know, as we're taping this, we still don't know if it feels like I'm going to even show up in Tulsa. I think it's just incredible how this whole thing has

played out. And, you know, no reporter ever wants to be the story. Like that's kind of one of the the unwritten rules in the job is just you don't want to be the center of the story. And so it's been uncomfortable as this has turned out. And but I don't know. I don't have any regrets. It's just, but to answer your question, it's been a lot. Well, it just seems like this was kind of thrust on you in a way, like you are writing this book. And I want you to kind of lay out the timeline of that

and your efforts to get Phil involved in it and the timing of that and your efforts to get Phil involved in it and the timing of that phone call. And from that, you know, try as best you can to help me understand what he was trying to accomplish with his phone call. And for the listener's sake that aren't as familiar with journalistic practices, what off the record means how that is an agreement between two people to be off the record and not something somebody can claim afterwards. And you know, you hearing these quotes and also thinking like, does he know this is on the record? That whole process. Explain that all to me. Yeah, there's so much there. I mean, sometimes I kind of wish Phil had never called me and it would have changed the last chapter of the book, but not the,

you know, the 18 or 19 that preceded it. And, you know, my goal was to write a really fun, the 18 or 19 that preceded it. And you know, my goal was to write a really fun, lively, breezy, anecdotal book about this incredibly colorful character. He was out of big life. And I knew as I plunged into the reporting, you know, almost two years ago now that there would undoubtedly be some juicy bits. I didn't really know what they would be, but he feels been mixed up in so many controversies through the years and to really tunnel deep into his world. I was going to learn some stuff, but I never imagined it would mushroom into this. And it's also, I'm glad the book, people are, you know, are finally going to get to read it in this totality, because I think it's a very fair and balanced look at a really complex person. And let me pause just for one second here to sign on to that because it makes,

the excerpt that was published, it makes way more sense in the full context of the book. Right, it is a up and down ride of this guy's life, the gambles he's taken, the personality he's taken on, and you read that chapter and it almost, it fits in, right? It is not, and I know you've said this too, it's not a salacious detail of Phil's life, it's not a tabloid-like reporting,

it is a very fun read, and we're gonna get into some of that part, but I just wanted to pause to kind of put some conviction behind that. I appreciate that, Sally. And so it's just been, it's just taken on a life of its own, and which I have some misgivings about.

But, you know, when we were talking about excerpts, I said, well, how about an excerpt that like gets in all of Phil's philanthropy and, and all this good guy virtues and, you know, a publisher and my agent's like, nobody's going to read about that. Nobody's going to care. And unfortunately, that's the world we live in where the there's it's so hard to cut through the clutter and to get people to pay attention. And

you know, the traditional publishing models dead, you know, no one goes on a big book tour anymore. So I'm just like one publicist for a million different authors, like you kind of have to create your own publicity now. There's not even a bookstorageing go to after the pandemic, right? So it's just like, so naturally the excerpts tend to be the most explosive stuff, but that's not the overall tone of the book. And so it's just a relief that now people

can read the whole thing and they'll get that. But I'm, so yeah, I mean, to go back to your question, I went to Phil face to face three times throughout this whole process and asked him if he would sit down for interviews for the book. And molded over and eventually he said no. And that's fine, that's his prerogative. He was really obsessed with this idea. He didn't want it to be in authorized biography and authorized versus unauthorized is a nuanced thing as well because you know, Jack Nicholas Arnold Palmer, they always sat with their bargaffers. You know,

they saw the value and telling their side of every story and putting their spin on everything. And there's also a human element. You know, if you're the athlete and you give the rider your time, then you might be able to soften them up in some way. And so they understood that. You know, Tigers taking the opposite approach.

You just slams the shutters down. And either many books has it have been written about him. He's never participated. And I think Phil is going back and forth and how he wanted to play it. He ultimately said no. And that was fine. I've had so much access to Phil through the years

and the people around him. I had a ton of material. It would have been great to sit down and have a bunch of long interviews with him because he's a great storyteller. And he's, he's like a high wire act when you're really interviewing Phil because he's just all over the place. But, but also if you are participating and it

gives off the, you know, the idea that it is an authorized version of it, then it makes it look like anything else you write in there is also signed off on him. Is that, by him, is that is that something they weigh as well? Yeah, it's complex. And then then you have like an official autobiography where it's a business partnership and the writer and the subject share in the proceeds and that editorial control like that was never going to happen, but that was Phil stance and you know we talked at the PGA Harding Park we talked to Tori Pines talked to Pebble Beach this was over a matter of you know six months when I approached him and he turned me down so that was fine. I just plunged into writing the book and fast forward 10 months. It's Thanksgiving of 21. And the book is actually due December 1st.

I'm in the home stretch. Phil text me and says, can we talk? I was like, yeah, great. Of course. And I'm stoked. And he calls me up. And he just, he'd start to go in. I mean, this guy was already,

he went 0 to 60 in about one sentence. And, you know, his lawyer had previously reached out to me. And this is a whole other weird part of the book where the lawyer wanted to hire me as a consultant as Phil was gearing up to take on the tour for his media rights, which of course I said no instantly, because that's a massive conflict of interest. I can't take Phil's money while I'm writing about fill. Like, they'd even make that offer was utterly bizarre. But so I knew that this was the background.

You want to talk about media rights, and which sounded really boring. You know, I would have preferred to talk to them about wing foot, but you take what you can get in this scenario. And so to your question, like, on or off the record, I mean, when someone wants to go off the record, they have to say it, and I have to consent to it. I mean, it is a, you know, it's an agreement and in the what could be used, how it could be sourced. You know, someone that feels has a gambling history would told me something that was so explosive and would have been international headlines. But it was off the record and I couldn't use it because I always honor those agreements. And, and you know this from your own life like Chris, like, it can be a dance, right?

Like, if you're at the driving range and a pros by your buddies with and you're just bullshitting and they say, hey, man, did you hear that, you know, player X got in a fist fight with his caddy? You're like, oh, damn, really? You're not really conducting an official interview. And so, can you use that or not? I mean, it becomes a gray area. And that scenario, you might say, oh, hey, I'd love to talk about that. Right about that.

You can, can I use that? And they'll say, yeah, but don't use my name or, okay, but let me, they'll clean it up a little bit and give you something a little more official. And that, that kind of thing happens all the time in sports writing. It's very contextual, right? Like, you're not, it's not, it's not an official interview. You're just hanging out. And if you blow that, you've lost that contact, probably forever, right? You know, they're going to share any information with you off, you know, right? Even if it's, even if they don't say off the record, there's plenty of guys that will come up and say, you have this as well, we'll say something and you just like inherently know I, that's not to use. Now, I think what you're getting ready to say is in the context of

writing this book and you asking him multiple times for an interview and he calls you up to talk, that is a very different scenario. Very different scenario. I mean, I've, I've been begging him to speak to me for this book over and over. I've talked to everyone in his orbit. I reached out to his high school girlfriend. I've got his college teammates, his family, swing coach, he's like,

Phil knows I'm writing this book. He's nervous about it. His lawyer is trying to co-opt me. Like, this book is happening. And there's an Amazon listing for it. And when we get on the phone, he asks me when the book's coming out. Like, we are talking because of this book and only because of this book. And every single thing he says is going straight into the book unless we agree

otherwise, and we hash it out. And he never said anything to that effect. And, you know, I guess if you want to second guess anything in this whole process, like I could have said, G Phil, are you sure you want to say that? But I don't really feel like, you know, it's my responsibility to provide guardrails for Phil.

He called me, you know, he wanted to tell me this stuff. He's done this for how many years? Like he has, this is not a rookie in doing media, right? Exactly. I didn't surprise him in the men's room. You know, he called me and the other thing to understand about Phil is he never opens his mouth without a agenda. He is a very smooth operator and I go into great detail

in the book about the ways that he's, he's charmed the media and he's bullied them and he's manipulated them and he's manipulated them and he's wooed them and you know Phil is very cagey and so the idea that that he was surprised by any of this is nonsensical so you ask what do I think his motivations were there's a few I mean when he inquired when the book was coming out I said you know May 17th Tuesday the PGA Championship week and at that point you know in his mind the Saudi stuff is going to be done I said, you know, May 17th, Tuesday the PGA Championship week. And at that point, you know, in his mind, the Saudi stuff is going to be done and dusted. You know, it's already been

announced. You know, the first tournament was on the horizon like the decisions were going to be made. And so I believe that this was his way of foreposterity, recording his thoughts and his beliefs about the whole situation, that yes, I know the Saudis are bad guys. Yes, I know they commit these atrocities, but this is just business. And at the same time, he's working both sides of street. So if you go to Saudi Arabia, the tour and fans are outraged, he's kind of winged them saying, I know, I get it, I get it, guys, but it's okay. Like, this is just business And if he, if it that blows up and he winds up going back to the PGA tour and pledging his field team, which could have looked like a political defeat for him, he's told me about all his, his battles with Jay Monahan and all the concessions he's extracted and all his

little victories. And so he's kind of covered either way. But is he, if he goes and plays, you know, with the Saudis after calling him scary mother fuckers, how does that play out for him? That that's the part that's like the only way it makes sense as if he truly never meant to be in business with them was only using them as leverage and I'm giving you this wink six months in advance. So when this book comes out how smart am I going to look for having transformed the PGA tour, which is such an unnecessary risk to take. I know I agree with that. But that's, that's feel. I mean, you know, in his, his non-apology apology that he released after the excerpt, like

he, he said, you know, the words I used for reckless and like, that's part of the fun for him. He's an adrenaline junkie. Like anyone who's watching play golf knows that. Like, he needs the juice. He needs that, that, that feeling. And I think part of him enjoyed, like he's telling me stuff that is really explosive. And I think he was, I think he was enjoying it. Like his tone on the phone was very like, I don't know if Gidey's the right word, but he was he asked it. He was enjoying it. And I mean, you know this from when you're even people, sometimes they get going and they get excited and they hear their own voice, they take it farther than they mean to. And that just maybe what happened. And again, I, it's not my job to, to, to stop him

at the edge of the cliff. You know, he's walked to, to the precipice of his own volition. He's looked down and he's seen the water. He's like, fuck it. I'm going to jump. And, you know, I'm just there to watch. I'm not an active participant. I'm not the lifeguard. I'm not the referee. Like, I'm the stenographer. Like, he tell me what you want to tell me. And there's other reporters who might look at it differently. And they might have a different opinion of that. And that's valid. You know, I thought you had a very thoughtful discussion with Bob Herrick on this very topic. And, you know, he came out from a slightly different perspective. And that's fine. And it comes a judgment call.

And, but, you know, given the context here, him calling me, the multiple efforts I'd made to talk to him, like Phil was saying what he wanted to say. He wanted to inform my thinking. He wanted to inform the readers. And now did he get a little carried away quite possibly, but that that's on him, not me. And like if I'm talking to somebody who's doing a magazine article or something, there are many times in that where I'll be like, all right, you can't use this, but like, hey, you may want to follow up on this part. Like I can't speak to that. That's not my story,

but I heard something about this. Like you know inherently know when to take pauses to be like Hey, this is not for whatever you would use it for and But to to that point of him like needing some juice on the line I want you to tell the story from the book about believe it was something Steve Lloyd had said or want someone close to him about He would turn down a speaking engagement hypothetically Without spoiler. Can you tell that that that part of the book? Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

No, it was his college buddy, Rob Mangini. And you know, talking about how Phil, where the gambling comes into into his life. And you know, his friend saying, it's not really about the money because there's times where Phil has a day off and he's offered, you know, a huge corporate gig and, you know, Rob quoted this figure, $500,000 and Phil will turn it down saying, I want to be with my family. But if I'm hanging out at Whisper Rock and some member wants to play him for 10K, I'll call it Phil and tell him and he'll jump in his plane, even though he's spending, you know, a lot more than $10,000 on the fuel and the pilots, like, he just needs the action. He needs the energy around it.

And, you know, Stuart Sink had a great little monologue in the book, too. needs the action. He needs the energy around it. Stuart Sink had a great little monologue in the book too. He's filled in all-time juice guy. He needs the juice and everything he does. It's the needling is juice, the bedding is juice, Vegas is juice. Talking trash about tiger is juice. I think that's one of the most insightful quotes among a lot of really interesting thoughts in this book. If you look at Phil in that context, a lot of his behavior, which can be a little quizzical, makes sense. And I think it's even part of this very fraught phone call with me. And I will say like, he could have called any reporter on the planet.

If you wanted to express his innermost feelings about Saudi Arabia, he could have called you, he could have called Michael Bamberg or whatever. He called the one motherfucker who's writing his biography. It's mind-boggling, like even for me, I'm baffled. I'm baffled. And I know he was trying to play me like a fiddle, and I know he had his little hidden agendas and all that, but it still is, and I mean, there's times I just shake him head,

I can't believe that happened. And it completely rocked my world too, because like now I'm sitting on this incredibly interesting, explosive information that's very germane to this very complicated moment, professional golf. I have like a fiduciary like duty to put this out into the world. And it's changed the whole feeling about this book. And you know, it's, it's a really, it's a, but it tells you who feel is. And it's just, it's still baffling to me. It really

is. Well, it's ironic too, because I'm guessing that over the course of reporting on this book, you were told many things that for whatever reason are not making it into the book, whether you were not given permission to make it into the book or whatnot. And then the one the juiciest thing about what comes from the man himself.

The reason why these people would give you these off the record stories would be kind of fearing wrath for Phil or feeling like they're giving away something they should for Phil. And then Phil just straight up gives it to you himself. It's just it's amazing. Do you have any sense of what how things have been with Phil since his kind of step away from golf? You know, a word of things alike on the home front.

What is financial situation look like? Whether he's going forward with live stuff? Any insight on any of that? Yeah, there's so many mysteries. I was getting reports like, you know, I have a friend. He's a member of the Yellowstone club And I get a call from them. You know, Phil's hiding out at pier. He's got like a ZZ top beard and You know get another call. He's he just sneaked into the cowboy performance center his hairs down to his his shoulders

Like, you know, he's like turned into Yeti. You know, he's like these these sightings of this this hairy You know mysterious figure, but we did actually on Fire Pit collective on our Twitter handle. Someone sent us this paprazzi video of him in San Diego, making a pretty ferocious golf swing. And he did have a little beard. His hair was a normal length. It looked like he'd put on a little weight, which, you know, so I think, you know, the reports of his demise were a little weight, which, you know, so I think exager, you know, the reports of his demise were a little exaggerated, but, you know, for sure, I become this clearinghouse for fill rumors and indioendo and gossip people are constantly calling me and writing me summer are complete social media randos summer very wired in members of the golf community. or very wired in members of the golf community. So at this point, I don't know what to believe.

I've heard it all. I will say, you know, that last paragraph in his public statement from February when saying, I haven't, I've let a lot of people down and I need to become a better man. And that to me was a lot bigger than Saudi Arabia. And that transcended the current moment and it felt like he was hinting at some some deeper issues.

We can all speculate what they are. No one really knows except for perhaps Phil and Amy and maybe a couple other people very close to them. Whether when he returns to public life, he's going to talk, you know, make some declarations, you know, we'll see. It's going to be utterly fascinating. And for, you know, nine days from the PGA championship, to not know if he's, you know, the first round of the PGA championship, to not know if he's going to defend after the performance for the ages and in this crowning moment in his career, it's, it's like very unsettling and weird. And I know everyone in the game feels that. I feel that acutely because obviously I've had some role in it. And so I've heard a lot of things.

I don't know what to believe anymore. I'm, I'm, is, is, is interested and eager to find out, you know, feels next moves everybody else. A quick break to check in with our friends at Roeback. I was absolutely stoked to see a fresh box on the front porch of the kill house, ripped it open, found a bunch of polos, performance QZips, performance hoodies from Roeback. We have had a great experiencing with them and after wearing them for a while, we can confidently

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QZips and hoodies and T's with code and I'll you, they just drop new hoodies and QZips. Perfect for the spring. Go check them out and start 2022 off with some rowback. Let's get back to Alan Chippenuck. If I can give a testament to the book as well, it is in the very beginning, it seems like you've accumulated a everyone you interviewed. It seemed like you asked a question, what's your best Phil story? And there's a whole chapter in there

of just like alternating stories. And you finish one of them, you're like, man, Phil is the best. I love that guy. You finish the next story and you're like, man, Phil is the worst. Like I would never want to be friends with that guy. And then the next one, like,

wow, he is the nicest guy possible. I'm like, wow, he's a huge asshole. It is, it seems to be this, this, like the full spectrum that is, that gives this very confusing, I'm very confused as to where I stand with Phil. Obviously the last year has maybe think less of him, but over time, I've known him to be a very flawed individual.

I've never, he's not a role model to quote his friend, Charles Barkley, but at the same time, he gives us so much entertainment that I find myself rooting for him. So you know, you've kind of touched on this already through the course of this conversation, but who is Phil Mikkelson? If you were to describe, you know, to describe him to someone that didn't follow golf and, you know, and based on your experiences with him, who is he? Yeah, that is chapter one in the book. It's probably my favorite chapter. And it was so fun to put together just all those different voices and I'm glad you came away with that that sense of uncertainty and those mixed feelings because that was really ultimately my goal I got. I'm not here to tell you how to feel about feel I'm not trying to legislate the the readers experience is like I'm just going to present this very complicated, very flawed, very interesting person

and let the reader decide how they feel about them. And the fact that you're a little ambivalent, I think tells me that hopefully I succeeded. And how to describe Phil. I mean, he's one of a kind. I mean, he's been a gift to all of us in the game, and especially us typists. You know, think about how, when he arrived in the 90s,

how boring his contemporaries were. I mean, that was the reign of terror of Marco Mura and Corey Pave and Lee Janssen and Tom Lehman. I mean, can you imagine a more boring group of American quote unquote stars? And, you know, Phil, he's the life of the party. He's an enigma. He's an asshole. He's a charmer. He's a humanitarian. He's just a, he's just a larger than life character. And he has a plus comedic timing. He's got an extremely sharp needle. He's very smart. He's not as smart as he thinks he is. He's really fun to be around. He's really maddening. He's very smart. He's not as smart as he thinks he is. He's really fun to be around. He's really maddening. He's contradictory. He can be petty. He can be vindictive. He can be incredibly generous. He's obviously an incredibly talented golfer who has some fatal flaws.

You know, the thrilling victories, the slapstick defeats. He's an incredibly gracious loser. He's a classy champion. He's all of those things, and that's why he's so fascinating. And it's absolutely incredible that there's never been a Phil Michelson biography until now. And shout out to Bob Herrick, he wrote a really good book. It's a little different. you know, it's more about the rivalry and it's probably a little more tiger than Phil. But it's have gone all these years and had such a public life, you know, full of tragedy and triumph. You think about Tiger, you know, he's had some big events in his life, but otherwise it's a pretty stayed boring person. Like, he's a thrilling athlete and we all project a lot of emotion onto him, but he's pretty fucking boring if we're honest about it and as a human with little spikes of

Wild interest, but you know He's an introvert and and Phil's an extrovert and he lives large and tigers always lived kind of small You know intensely private in his bubble. I went around him afraid to say a word and all of that. And it feels had a different way of being. He's a lot more open and and think about all of the Tiger books, so I'm really good, so I'm really bad, that way down my bookshelves,

there's never been a fill book until now, it's really incredible. And so that was part of why I wanted to write it because I knew there was so much there. Good bad. And otherwise, well, it's, it's funny because everything you just said about his life and I think we've talked about to this point, almost none of it includes unbelievable accomplishments and close calls and just like ups and downs on the golf course. Like we have not talked about him on the golf course to this point other than you touched

on him, winning the PGA. And that is what is so fun about this book is like I get totally you get totally like enveloped into a part of the story that you totally forget about what's to come next like you know blah blah blah trun happens and then bang it's a moving part of the 2018 US open and then it's like okay Phil's career is like kind of coming to an end. And oh my, he went to the fucking PGA. Like it just is relentless and nonstop yet, you know, at the same time, it's like he had all this other off-course stuff going on. And you know, you kind of talked about, you know, him reflect in that last paragraph of his statement, which yeah, I don't want to call it an apology because there wasn't a real hyn apology there. But talking about, you know, maybe some deeper stuff going on,

you also paint a picture in the book that a snippet in time is to looking into the early 2010s specifically of what the gambling losses potentially would have looked like. And it starts to paint a more clear picture of the Billy Walter situation and how he ended up, how that story all unfolded. of the Billy Walter situation and how he ended up, how that story all unfolded.

And I've never sought it out enough. I know that information's out there, but to see it all kind of spell it out like that helped again, again, in the whole context of what we're talking about with the Saudi stuff and all that, everything becomes more clear if you view it in that regard. But that's another excerpt of the story that you've released.

But I'm wondering if you can kind of walk us through some of the details of what that financial situation and gambling situation maybe looks like now and then the period that you're reporting on. Yeah, I mean, it's no secret Phil loves to gamble. I mean, he's been open about it. He cast that big Super Bowl bet and crowed about it, you know, when the Ravens won back of the turn of century. And this, this is followed Phil forever.

And it's part of his legend. And I think it's part of why people like him, you know, he lives big. And what is he, he's number two on the all time, P.J. Tour of Money List, with 105 million or whatever it is. And we know he's made five or six or seven times at endorsement. So you would just assume he's sitting on an empire, right?

Yeah, he's like, it's like the dark night just on a pile of money and lighting it on fire for fun. But I think the rally is more complex. And how much he's lost gambling on some level, it's personal to him. It's his money. Like, why should I invest care? He can do whatever he wants with it. And, you know, in general, I agree with that. Like, I didn't get into Phil's private life really, despite things that I heard have been told, because I do think that people aren't entitled to some privacy. And you could say, well, the gambling would fall. That's part of his own life away from golf. But if he's threatening to blow up the entire world order, a professional golf, because the

Saudi money is so big, and does he really need it or not? It becomes an interesting question. Like, that's where what he's doing away from the golf course becomes the public domain, right? And especially if you are a spokesman for huge brands, I think that is a big deal, right? If you are, that's part of it too. If you are taking your athletic prowess

and taking it and be a spokesman on behalf of many other brands, that your character speaks to your ability to do that, right? You cannot do certain thing. And that's why companies have paused and stopped their relationship with him is they bought into something else. They looked past a lot of other flaws

like a lot of us have. And he no longer was able to offer them what he was once able to offer them what he was once able to offer them. And that's why things right and you know, it ended up changing. Yeah, but I mean, in the context of Saudi Arabia, why does Phil need the money? Why is he so drawn by the money? He doesn't, he would just assume he doesn't need the money.

Like how, you know, to go back to Gordon Gecko, how many boats can you ski behind in all that, that whole famous speech? But if the money is not quite there, like we think it should be, maybe he does, maybe there is an element of necessity or desperation. And that would explain this whole Saudi seduction. And so, you know, you mentioned Billy Walters and Phil got mixed up in that insider trading case, who's ultimately, you know, name is a relief defendant, which means he was not charged with wrongdoing, but he had to give back his ill-gotten gains, which is one of my favorite phrases,

of, you know, a million dollars to the government, which he owed that, how he ended up in that was he was in a betting scheme of some kind with Billy Walters and also making side bets on his own that Billy did not want to buy in on and losing money on those. So owed Billy Walters money who he gives him a tip, a stock tip that leads him to being in the insider trading thing. So it's not the gambling aspect of it leads to the insider trading. Right. Yeah. And you know, this is this is all in court papers and in testimony. I mean, the amount of money that Phil was owing Billy Walters was into the millions of dollars. Like, this is, this is serious money. And so as part of the investigation into this insider trading case, you know, Phil was subjected like this forensic government audit of his finances.

And they scrutinized a four year period. And I had someone who had direct access to documents who, you know, told me that Phil over this four year period that was looked at 2010 to 14 claimed $40 million in gambling losses. So that would be an average of $10 million a year that you're losing. And if your income is $40 million, and that's a fantastical number. But once you pay your taxes, and we all know Phil liked to bitch about the California taxes. Which by my my my records he has chosen to live in the state of California. He's chosen.

He's chosen. But so, you know, what do you left with 22 at that point? And then you've got you've got the Gulf Stream. You've got the Mansions. You have all, you know, the dozen people who are on your payroll from chefs to trainers to you. He feels like I've got three coaches. Pudding short game swing coach, like, you know, he's got a trainer.

He's got all these people. And it's a big lifestyle. I mean, he's always enjoyed conspicuous consumption. Like, I don't know, I also got a T-Rex skull for their birthday, right? Like, they don't sell that down to local mall. You know, all these things cost money. And so once you do that math,

what's he left with out of that 40s, got 12 or 13 or 10? I don't know. And if you're losing 10 of it, like, I mean, if you're in your peak earning years and you're barely breaking even because of the gambling losses, I mean, to me, that would be a red flag. And so why this is important is because it's a direct line

from there to now he's being lured by the big money jackpot of Saudi Arabia and it helps explain all of this. And that was even in the testimony on the Billy Walter's trial, the US attorney, they made this point. That the whole reason Phil Soldo shares was to pay off his debt to Billy Walter's. And you would think, well, couldn't Phil just write him a check, like he's sitting on all this money,

but the government contended like he wanted to sell those shares just to pay off the debt. And so now you're starting to wonder like, what's really going on? How much is it affecting Phil's life? How much is it affecting his, you know, his financial state, his decision making? So it runs deep and it's really an important part

of understanding who he is and the decisions he makes that ultimately culminates in this, in this, you know, self-imulation with Saudi Arabia. Does Phil have a financial advisor to your knowledge? Does he trust people? I mean, he's got yes men around him. Sponsored by KPMG for all these years. He's got, I mean, they don't do financial. I mean, it's a, it's a company to do a lot of different things. That's not their special.

Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Well, you would know that bear the most former employee of KPMG. Yes. Yeah. I mean, he's got he's got access to everyone, right? I mean, does have many access to many, many, many, many, many, many, many people who be able to give a better financial advice than to gamble it all away. Well, I was going to say, I mean, your financial advisor is not going to advise you to bet, you know, X number dollars on the Super Bowl. Like, that's not good. That's that you're now transcending the advice of the trained professionals. But, you know, going back to your point of a few minutes ago, there is a lot of golf in this book.

And it was really fun to bring that to life. And, you know, I was lucky to be on the ground for almost all of it because, you know, 1994 was my first year covering the PJ tour. And that was Phil's second full season. And so I've been tracking him his, you know, this whole journey to win the first major. And I would stand right by the green 99 at Pinehurst when Payne Stewart broke his heart. And, you know, I was right there at Atlanta Country Club when, when, you know,

David Thomas made that ace and all these things. Like I was part of this journey in my own way. And, you know, the still the loudest noise I ever heard of golf course was filmmaking that Putt and O4 to gust a walk off birdie to win the green jacket. It was so cathartic for not only him, but all the people who cheered for him.

And it might be my favorite part of the whole book is reliving Wingedfoot, which is such a defining moment in Phil's career and in his life. I love that chapter so much. When I was taping, I did the audiobook, which was his own kind of fun challenge. You have this producer in your ear and every time you mispronounce a word or whatever, you have to start over. I would start reading too quickly when I'd get to parts that I thought were exciting, because I knew it was coming. I couldn't wait to start over. I would start reading too quickly when I'd get to parts that I thought were exciting. You know, because I knew it was coming. I couldn't wait to get there. And the wing foot chapter, we had to do over and over because I couldn't wait to get

to that ATT. And I brought in all these voices. You have everyone from Jack Nicholas to Andy North to Hale Irwin, you know, all these multiple US Open Champions, critiquing and second guessing and offering their insight. You have Nick Fowdo. You have, I mean, on down the list. And I love that part of the book so much that I was standing right there in the fairway when that whole thing happened. I was with Rick Smith, who was Phil's swing coach at the time.

And we're standing there as Phil is assessing a second shot. And it was, it was such a frayed moment. And when Phil sliced that three iron and hit that, that Norway maple, And it was such a frated moment. And when Phil sliced that three iron, and it hit that Norway maple, and it was like, it was like the end of the natural, you know, the sound of Wonder Boy hitting that home run, like it was the loudest crack I've ever heard on a golf course,

that ball hitting the tree. And Rick Smith went just ashen, like he knew his life would just change dramatically. And then he was probably fired for that ball he would stop rolling. And then Mike Lupica, who's like a very like in your face, New York columnist comes running up and he yells at Smith, he might not make five from there.

And like I still to this day don't know how Smith didn't just throttle him. And the whole thing just unspooled so quickly that watching field walk up that fairway, just he's wearing that yellow shirt. And like that was his face went that color, like all the blood drained out of him. And he looks like he's sick.

He probably was feeling that way. Because after his third shot finds he looks like he's sick. He probably was feeling that way because it, you know, after his third shot finds the bunker like he's done, you know, green sloping away from him. There's no way he's getting that up and down. And it was just like, it's like watching this car crash and slow motion. And then, you know, after he did his famous on an idiot press conference, he retreated to the upstairs locker room at Wingfoot.foot and you know, I went up to try and find him and he's sitting there at his locker and he just has his head in his hands, he's just broken. I mean, I've only seen one player who was ever that physically affected by something happened on the golf course. It was Lee Westwood at Turnberry, which people forget he three put of the last hole to miss the playoff that Stewart

sinkled and we beat Tom Watson. And I followed Westwood into the locked room. He went to playing on a bench and was hyperventilating. And I almost like went and called the medic. It was crazy. But Phil was just like, I mean, he was broken and Amy came up and like, we're standing there's looking at him. And she whispered to me like, I think he's in shock. And I think I think that was actually a pretty good medical diagnosis. And

I've been very close to a lot of these things. And you know, after you won that at Mirfield, I wound up drinking champagne with Phil and Amy and this private RNA party and I walked into Butler cabin in 2010 with them briefly and the family celebrating, like I've had access. I've seen things that cameras couldn't get and it was fun to bring all of that to the reporting of this book and to recreating the thrilling victories

and also the absolutely crushing defeat. And to my knowledge, this story of Phil and Bones of parting, or not kind of officially parting ways in 2017, the reasoning behind that has never fully been published until the second episode excerpt that you that you published from the book. Is that accurate? Yeah. And that we just kind of teased at it in the excerpt. There's a lot more on the book about that whole disillusion. And that was always, it never felt right when they broke up. It was, you know, it was like, oh, it's our 20th anniversary. So it kind of made sense. And, you know, I guess, but no one ever answered why. And bones was, was very, you played it close to the,

it was vast, filled, I want to talk about it. And you could, on, on TV, you know, bones was pretty chipper talking about Phil, but that was, he had to, you know, he was kind of, it was performative. And, but if you were at tournaments, like I was and you were as well, you could, and if you ever saw them interact,

like they wouldn't even look at each other, there was just an awkwardness there, when bones were making a few cameos for Justin Thomas and they might have in the same group as Phil and his brother. There was an edge there. You could feel it if you're out there watching and maybe the cameras might not have picked it up. But if you were if you were if you were paying attention. So I always knew there was something there, but I didn't know what it was. And you know, bones that want to be interviewed for this book, but he did want his story told. And so had access to people very close to him. And I was finally able to crack it open. And I guess we'll leave that as a little bit

of a mystery because, you know, I don't want to be a tease, but it's fantastic there. I'll tell you. You know, it's a fight line between promoting a book and just giving it all away. And people like, I feel I'm having a big meal and now you're full. So I don't know. But yeah, the answer is it's all in the book. And I think it's fascinating. And it's in the excerpts, not a spoiler. Money was a factor here.

They bones and feel their relationship predated the FedEx cup and then the FedEx cup came along and every player and Caddy kind of had to figure out how to account for that money. And if you remember the first couple of years, it was deferred it was deferred into their pension. So how do you what do you give a caddy if you win a million dollars, but you don't get the money right away. And so Phil and bones had a, you know, basically an agreement on it So, Phil and Bones had a, you know, basically an agreement on it. I don't know how they're going to, how are they're going to handle it? And, but Phil never paid up and over time, it turned into a significant amount of money, like almost a million dollars. And, oh, that's obviously,

introduced some tension into a relationship, even if you're friends, but, I mean, if a guy owed me a million bucks or $900,000, and he doesn't really have any leverage per se, and he doesn't want to introduce a lot of awkwardness. So he was just kind of patiently waiting but Phil never paid. And that was eventually he did after that. Things were really going south in 2017 and their working relationship was deteriorating.

Phil gave him half the money or he gave him $400,000. But even that's weird. If you're acknowledging you owe this money, why not just make him a whole? Why just give less than half? And then would you add up all the other cash flow potential issues and you may be. That's what we're saying. It's part of a larger thing here. And then, and then after bones, essentially fires, feel, you know, he sends him another 400 K. It's like, okay, thank you. But, you know,

my bones math is supposed to be 900. So you're still getting short at $100,000. It's like, I'm happy to get this money. It's a lot of money. I'm grateful, but you're still missing a little bit. It's just like, again, it tells you something. And that was what was satisfying for me in this book was to try and understand the real story

because there's an official version. and then there's the truth, and they're not often aligned. And so just to drill down any number of things, and not all of it is controversial. I love the part in the book when Phil goes to the minor league tryout with the Tleedo mudhands. And I kind of watched that from afar, I was just playing out, and I was just wondering if I could just put my mind or lead try out with the little mudhins. And I kind of watched that from a far as just playing out and I was kind of confused about the whole thing and it came and went real

fast and it just seemed like a head scratcher. I had no idea how serious Phil was and you had hired Tom House, you know, this were now in Major League baseball pitching coach to be his tutor and all that went into it and it was just fun to peel back the layers and call up some of the ball players were there at the time. And you know, all these things like how fast was this fastball? Yeah, well, wasn't very fast.

So he topped out at 60, which is absurd to think that he was going to get a one day call up with the Tigers, which was his goal. But you know what Tom Howes told me is that Phil is throwing 100 pitches a day in this mound that he built in his back yard. And, and the house was like, no major league baseball pitcher alive can throw 700 pitches a week. I guess not humanly possible. And so Phil gets its lead on. He's just got a dead arm. And like, I think Phil should be thankful that I'm kind of exonerated for 20 years. Everyone's been like, what the hell this guy had a 68 mile hour fastball. Like they're throwing harder than that down

with the local Little League diamond. And but now we have some context. And so, so many things like that. I mean, like reliving the 1991 Walker Cup when, you know, I totally forgotten, you know, Phil goes over to Ireland. It's already overheated because the US had just lost the Walker Cup for the first

time in ages and Phil played really crappy in 89. And so he's got a lot to prove in this 91 Walker Cup. He's the biggest star in the game. He's already won a pro tournament as an undergrad. Like he's legit one of the 10 best players in the world, including the professional ranks. And so this is a swan song for the Walker Cup. And the European team is stacked. You know, they've got they've got Pudrig. They've got Paul McGinley. It's the first time it's played in Ireland. There's there's a you know, Andrew Colter. There's just a lot of energy around this Walker Cup. And so in a practice round, Phil hits it into the crowd. And afterwards, he gets asked about it by a reporter. And he's like, yeah, I don't want to hit it there. The Irish women are not very attractive. And it's funny.

I've met some very beautiful Irish women. I don't know if I agree, but it's a funny thing to say. It's funny that Phil said it. It's definitely the wrong thing to say. And it became like an actual international incident. Like the US team is driving away. And the bus gets pulled over. Phil has to step off the bus and film

an apology being demanded by the Irish consulate. It's so fucking funny. And inevitably, his becomes the most important singles match. And on the last hole, he hits one of the greatest shots of his career under intense pressure. And it's just like, you know, this idea that, you know, Phil, in this phone call to me, like was playing a rascal and maybe put his foot in his mouth, like, he's been doing that his whole life. You know, one of my favorite parts of book is the 1990 USA Amateur, which he wins. Get ready to get to this. Yeah, there's so much great play by play there. You know, calling up these guys that he beaten, you know, in the quarter finals, they haven't talked about this in 25 years. They're so delighted to get the phone call

and to relive it. And there was so many like incredibly fun in Jeff Thomas story. Yeah. All right. So that's another thing. I had heard I had heard this story many times in fills, it's become part of his legend is it's second round. And Jeff Thomas was like this legendary New Jersey amateur who was quite a baller, you know, he wanted, he wanted the Publinks, got to play the Masters, he he wanted the, I think the Jersey State open many, many times. Like he was revered, but he was also this semi,

I don't know, he was a very, very edgy character. And he was combative, and he was a trash talker. And he loved the gamesmanship. And he was living to play Phil. Phil is this pretty boy who carried himself like a tour player, had the popped collar, has college coach on the bag, like just so punchable, right? Like who went to want to be Phil Miggles and back then? And so Jeff Thomas is just, he's ready to go. And you know, the first hole, Thomas winds up having some issues on the whole. He's got, he leaves himself a 40 footer for par and, and Phil's got, he hits a great shot

in there. He's got four feet for birdie and Phil just concedes the putt. He's like, just pick it up. And now we, you know, four feet's not a give me. I don't know what to make percentage on there. He's got four feet for birdie. And Phil just concedes the putt. He's like, just pick it up. And now he, you know, four feet's not a give me. I don't know what the make percentage is on tour. It's not 100%. And now he's put this incredible pressure on himself to make this putt, which he does.

He wins the hole. And it's just such an alpha move. You know, I got Jeff Thomas's caddy to talk about it. John Gerdy, who was the man on the scene for Sports Illustrated. And, you know, it was just, you know, some Phil quotes from back to the day, like, so again, this was just something I kind of heard about. I didn't know the details. I didn't really know that much about Jeff Thomas. And then you dig deep. And Jeff Thomas turns out to be a

fascinating character I gave. I gave a lot of space to. And, you know, again, that moment tells you so much about the young Phil Mickelson. I mean, it's the cockiest thing you could ever do on a golf course. And then there's this quote, which I think is from the same USAM where I, this is the only quote I think I wrote down from the book, which is I'm playing as good as I've ever played every facet of my game is 100% right now. Whoever I play, I'd be intimidated if I were them. Why shouldn't they be as an amateur? You know, I mean, he was so cocky.

He still is. I mean, that's, and that's part of the fun is, you know, it's one thing to think it. It's another to say it to, to a bunch of reporters. And that's Phil's thing. He can't help himself. He loves the sound of his own voice. And for someone who is so intensely private, if you've ever been in in a private setting, he talks an extremely high volume. And people are like craning their heads because they can hear it. And I mean, I've seen him in restaurants. I've sat at his table, you know, at the bridges golf club where we're having brunch. And he's, he will say very politically incorrect things and very racy things. And it's not quiet. Like it's part of his dichotomy.

I mean, he just loves the sound of his own voice and going back to, circling back to your earlier question. I mean, that's part of the whole Saudi Arabia thing. Like he just couldn't help himself. He wanted to talk about it. And he's had an issue saying the wrong thing forever. And it's just, but it's part of what's fun. I mean, you know, talking about Tigers and Furrier equipment.

And I get into that in the book, but he wasn't wrong. You know, Tiger was not maxing out his specs. Because he wanted control. He wanted to be able to shape the ball. He wanted maximum spin. Because then he was good enough to take the spin off when he wanted to. But you know, that was the era where high launch low spin

was really the, the, the era where, you know, high launch low spin was really the, the holy grail of distance. And so inferior was initially interesting quote, but certainly Tiger's gear was not maxed out. I mean, Phil wasn't wrong, but it was just such an uppity thing to say when he had zero major championship victories and Tiger had eight. And Tiger was beating him like a drum. And so but you got a love that he said it. And it was, I was, I remember what happened. They get, I remember Pebble beats everyone swarmed around him because that's when the story broke.

And it was great. It was fun and Tiger loved the torture to him about it. And again, Phil just says it. He's got no sensory as no governor. Yeah, entertainer. While that's created controversy, it's also part of his brand because it's, it's like he lives on the edge and he gives us something to talk about and something to write about. And it's part of who he is. And I mean, God loves. He's an entertainer.

Well, I wrote down about 15 or 20 stories. I wasn't sure how talking to if you'd be today, but so I didn't know how many of these would get to. So for those, I'm going to ask you to spoil some, but for those listening, there's for every one of these spoils, there's five more that we won't get to today. But one of my favorites is the Tom Candy, Audi story about placing bets. I wonder if you could tell that one. So candy, Audi was big league baseball player. He retired. He's living in in Scottsdale and playing out at Wish Baroque and when Phil was doing the same. And so on the opening day of NFL, around the turn of the century, Phil gets like eight or 10 dudes,

they pile into the golf stream, they fly to Vegas, they get up really early, before the games, they roll up to, I think, as a blogge, yo, and they've got this sweet setup where there's a TV for each game, which, you know, turn of the century, that was kind of unique, right? And there's this huge breakfast spread.

So then they go down to the sports book and Phil had actually like written out a tip sheet for each guy. Like, his take on each game, which is hilarious and put a lot of thought into it. So they go down to the sports book to place their bets and people are kind of milling around like they don't know what's the protocol. He fills the host, we should let him go first, right, as a showing of whatever respect. And he feels like, no, no, you guys go ahead because when I him go first, right? As a showing of whatever respect. And feels like, no, no, you guys go ahead because when I place my bets, it might move the line. And it's an unbelievable thing to say.

And it's probably true. And it tells you like how deep the waters swim, that he swims in. So they all place their bets. And candy, he's like, he's with Jason Kits there to the basketball player. They're like, how much should we bet? I don't know.

I'll bet $1,000. I don't want to feel the thing. I'm a pussy. But that was a lot of money. Like, oh my god, $1,000 a game. Anyway, Phil's going a lot deeper than that. So they go back up to this suite. And I mean, just sounds like the ultimate,

like it's a frat party with an unlimited budget. They're tossing a football around. They're tackling each other on the couches. I mean, it's really funny to imagine. And so now the game's starting. And then, you know, according to candy, I like things get serious and feels like locked in. He's watching whatever eight games at once. And Phil sweeps every game. He wins every bet. And according to candy, he's up over a million dollars. That's in three hours, right? Like that is, I mean, that's, you know, whatever, 2001 money. That's, and, and, and, and, and, and Phil does great in the afternoon too. So he's, he's up well over a million bucks in one day of betting. But then before they head to the airport,

he's like, let's play some backrat and, and he gave a lot of it back. And I mean, he can't, he said, we need like a, a lasso to get him out of there. And I mean, and they get in the plane and they fly home, they weren't even gone for a night. Like, it's pretty epic. Sounds like fun, right? I mean, there's a great Charles Barkley quote where, you know, he's comparing Tiger and Phil, you know, it's late in the book. And obviously, in this current moment, it takes on a slightly different feeling. But, you know, he said, listen,

no one around Tiger ever has fun. Everybody's uptight. Everybody's afraid to say the wrong thing. He's like oppressed by his talent. He's oppressed by the fame. I'm paraphrasing here, but I don't have it in front of me. And he's like, with Phil, everybody's laughing, everybody's smiling.

You hang out with Phil, you're guaranteed to have a good time. And like, he's had a joyful life and that's why he's lasted this long. And Barclays, one of the few guys who's really spent a lot of time with both dudes, because you know, there's not a lot of overlap in their crowds. And so I thought that was incredibly insightful.

And like how fun, that sounds like fun. I would love to get on someone's plane and go to Vegas and have a day like that. Like who wouldn't, you know, like, Phil's, he brings people together. He's got a huge social circle, you know, where Tigers and Introvert and a loner, you know, like, feels he brings people together. He's got a huge social circle, you know, where Tigers and introvert and a loner, you know, Phil is an extrovert and he, he thrives on the juice. And, you know, I saw him in the the bar at the mass in club years ago.

And I mean, he's holding court with 20 dudes. It looked like an organized, like, you know, speaker series, but he's just talking shit. And that's who he is. And that's part of the fun of Phil. And yeah, that candy out of stories. I love that. It might move the line. That's my favorite. You know, it's funny is, my jaw honestly dropped a little bit when I got to a certain part of the book when,

and I was playing golf this weekend, and I was talking to somebody about the book. And they go, you know, I heard a story about Phil a few years back about, and I knew exactly one of two stories of what they were going to because everyone thinks they had this inside track on these two Phil stories for back in the day. And you address both of them head on and I was like, oh my god, he's about to confirm him. But it ends up not maybe not necessarily

being the case. And what if you could tell those stories? Well, I got so much Phil in my brain, which two stories are you talking about? Let me just make sure I know my topic. My baby and the MJ Amy story. Oh, yeah. So yeah, this is interesting. You know, I refuted both of these rumors.

And I thought it was important to address from the standpoint that to understand that there's been this stuff swirling around fill forever. I mean, this stuff goes back to the early 2000s. And this was, I got sucked into it because people thought I was doing this investigation and I had, feels like PR guy come to me, he's like, in my face about it, I said, that's not me. I don't even think that sports illustrated, but everyone in the golf media got sucked into this. And one, either you were investigating it or people thought you were. It was this oddly specific rumor

that Phil had this love child. He would have been fathered during the memorial tournament. And supposedly the mom worked at the first teen Columbus and that she was African-American. And it was so hyper specific that Frelle Evans, who was a sports illustrated reporter back in those days, he knew the people, the first day of Columbus, and there was one young woman who happened to be black. And so he called her up and said,

this is what I've heard. And she's like, it's not true. You know, I met Phil once at the memorial. We never slept together. There's no baby. But this lived on the internet for a decade and filled and his people ultimately filed a lawsuit trying to scrub some of these comments and trying to unmask this anonymous troll who was posting it. They eventually did find out this person's identity and you know, I believe it's 100% false, but it lived for a decade. And to the point that some respected members

of the mainstream golf press had to ask Phil about it. And it's one of the most amazing parts of the book. And I don't want to spoil it for people when they read it. But this reporter named John Hawkins who was at golf world's last golf digest, asks Phil about this rumor and Phil just explodes and it tells you that to me, first of all, it's kind of impressive

that he just took it on head on, but the strain and the stress that he was under, right? Like that because they knew about it and they heard about it. And then again, it's the ultimate thing in golf. It's not just that he has an illegitimate baby. It's a black baby. It's so taboo. That's the sport that we're in. And so it kind of plays into this Amy Mickelson rumor about that she had a fling with Michael Jordan, you know, same thing. It wasn't Christian Laitner. It had to be Michael Jordan. And there was a time,

it. It wasn't Christian Latener, you know, it had to be Michael Jordan. And there was a time, and I remember this vividly, if you typed Amy Michelson into the Google search box, the first thing that auto-filled was Michael Jordan. And it became such a thing that deadspin wrote a whole story about it. And again, they refuted it. And Amy to her everlasting credit, you know, she would joke about it. And she said to me, have you heard about me and Michael? And so, I wanted to tell this story that like, this is a stuff they've had to deal with. There is a downside to being, you know, to their level of fame. I think there's always been the most scrutinized marriage and golf. And you know, there's a certain amount of pressure and and external stuff that's come with that. And you think they've always handled it with a lot of grace

and Amy was one of the most beloved figures in the game. And she's been an incredible ambassador for Phil. I mean, I make this point in the book. Like Tiger speaks to the media after 99.99% of his rounds. And if he ever doesn't, he gets killed for it. Or if he says the wrong thing, like it was kind of snippy with what Bill McAtey back in the day with the bone popped out, And if you ever doesn't, he gets killed for it. Or if he says the wrong thing, like, and he was kind of snippy with what Bill McAtey back in the day

with the bone popped out, or, you know, it's commented on, oh, Tiger was kind of mean on TV, like, oh, it's Tisk Tisk. But he's a pro. He accepts, you know, he accepts the obligations of superstar, which is, you know, you got to talk to the press. We're helping to pay the bills. We are the people who represent the fans. And

and so and tiger, I give a massive amount of credit for that. You know, it feels not that way. If you play as bad, he'll just stomp off. And which reveals a little something about his character as well. But he never got killed for it because he had Amy, he had bones, he had Rick Smith, butch Harmon, Dave Pell's, you know, Dave Stockton, you can go on down the list of people around who were very agreeable, great storytellers, had a lot of insight and so, as I got fine filled take off,

because you know, Amy's right here and she's super cheerful and she'll tell us, you know, what really happened. And so, it's part of that dichotomy between Tiger and Phil, you know, Tiger had Steve Williams, who was well known as a dick, and Elyne Nordegren, who never said a word to anybody, and Hank Hayney, who was mindful that Butch Harmon had gotten too big of a media profile and got fired. So even though Hank's a smart guy with a lot to say, he didn't really want to be quoted. And so there was it was much harder for reporters to do their job. And there was more like

unhappiness with Tiger's Oh Steinberg, Dr. No, like all this stuff. And so it's just part of that polarity why, you know, Tiger and his people were always they hated how adoring the press was to fill. And part of it was because Phil, when he was in a good mood, was extra charming. And the people around him helped us do our jobs. And so that's just another kind of piece of the puzzle. But yeah, so, you know, I'm sure some people will be like, oh, why did you put that in the book? It's too salacious, but I'm very careful in refuting it.

It's the opposite of salacious, really. Yeah, yeah, we're shooting it down. But as you said, this is swirled around Phil and Amy, mostly Phil, for 20 years. And it is something that fans here and know and have taken as like gospel. And so I think I was doing them a favor by examining it, pointing out the hypocrisy, and ultimately refuting it. But also, among all the stories we've had here, but there's also, I want you to tell the

story as much as you can of the Northbrook family and how, you know, on the opposite end of the spectrum of so many Phil stories we hear, you know, there's also this guy. That's really not a Phil, it's much more of a Michelson family story there, but what do you tell us about that one? Yeah, I enjoyed writing about all of Phil's philanthropy and all his random acts of kindness. And he's done, he's touched a lot of people in a really impactful way. And I'm like, I went to this thing they call starch smart. God, this is 15 years ago. He was, I think it was either 04 or, yeah, I must have been 04.

He was like the golf magazine player of the year and they asked me to go write a story and feel, feel that want to talk. He was too busy. So I just crashed this. No, no, I think that was 2010, when he won the Master's. And it doesn't matter. The point is, I couldn't get an interview with him. So I heard about this thing. So I just showed up unannounced.

And 2,000 kids get discouraged by these school buses and that they bust in from all the low income and economically disadvantaged neighborhoods around San Diego County. And the Michelson family, they take over this target, and every kid gets a backpack and school supplies and shoes and clothes. And Amy and Phil are there, like Amy's trying on shoes for girls and Phil's run around doing this.

At one point, he's like, come here. Come here. So we escaped into the manager's office and ate some donuts because it's a lot happening. And at the end of it, Phil just whips out his credit card and hands it to the cash year and whatever, many hundreds of thousands of dollars it is. And you know, he doesn't have to do that. Like there's many other examples of that. But the North Brook family, this was um, and talking a lot of people around San Diego, this guy's name came up a few times. So I found them. And they were kind of Michelson adjacent. You know, he had some kids that were the Mikkelsons, the same age as the Mikkelsons kids.

And they were on some of the same soccer teams and some of the same dance recitals. He said, I don't really know Phil. Like, he recognized me. He would kind of give me a nod, you know, kind of dad to dad. I'm not sure even knew my first name, but, you know, we were in each other's orbit occasionally. This guy, Eric Northbrook, you know,

he's writing motorcycles down in Mexico on Stunt of Acacia with buddies. Has a horrible crash, he's paralyzed from the chest down, and so he gets flown into this, this hospital in Colorado, and he's there for three months, you know, doing physical therapy and kind of adjusting to his new reality, and comes back home, and Phil and Amy have completely retoffitted his house with elevators and ramps and special bathrooms and You know, he doesn't know exactly how much it costs he was guessing a quarter million dollars something like that and Again, it was just it was just an act of kindness to a family that the Michelson's knew very casually and and so and then this guy

It was so inspired so grateful that he he founded this organization called head north where he raises money and donates it to other people who have had catastrophic spinal cord injuries around San Diego and he's helped 600 families, they've raised millions of dollars and he's like, I'm just paying it forward because of what Phil did to me and it's a really moving story and there's there's a dozen of those in this book and you know that's why when people have said, oh it's just like a takedown of Phil or you're up to get them It's like, no, not at all. I'm trying to tell the totality of who he is. And he's done a lot of wonderful things for people. And it's all in the book. And I celebrate it. And I tip my caps to him. And but there's also some

messiness. And there's some controversy. And that's in the book too. That's why I think the kind of rumor, the sentiment around the golf media world was like, Hey, this book is coming out. And it's going to be very not good for Phil. And I did not get that impression from reading it personally. Some other people may walk away differently from it. I know you mentioned in there that Phil was nervous about the book. You know, I think it does tell a story, I think. I don't think there's anything in there that I would qualify necessarily as really not

good for Phil. But I'm going to ask for one more story and I'm going to give it just a little bit of example of all the things we're going to leave on the cutting room floor, which is listening to the AFC Championship live during a professional event. Gary McCord gambling story, a Jimmy Walker gambling story, some stuff with Rick Riley, a bearing point story that's fantastic, the beer bash, relieving all of those on the table. So please do go check out the book, but 2000 presidents cup, Tom layman story from the book. You got to tell that one as we will let you out of here.

Yeah. Yeah. It's a funny one. I mean, again, trying to understand like, where does the sports betting fit into Phil's life? And I got a lot of really funny stories. And so they're paired together in the president's cup. And it's better ball and Phil's really struggling.

And layman's just absolutely caring and we're on the front nine. And Phil's like, don't worry, I'm gonna show up. I got you partner. And they're in this part, come to this part three. It's a terrible shot. It's buried under the lip. He's out of the hole.

So Phil walks like way off the green and he's kind of sitting on this tree stump and it looks like he's got his head in his hands. And layman's like, oh man, he's really, he's really feeling it poor guy's struggling. And he's over there giving himself a pep tag. And he's just marinating in the self-loathing. And so layman goes over there to say, you know, hey, keep your chin up partner. And Phil's got like his phone out and he's checking the football scores. And layman's like, brother, he kid me. And it's so funny. I mean, it's only the president's cup. It's not the right or go. But still, like, you would think that you might be slightly more focused on the task at hand, but, you know,

I feel, I got to, I got to watch that line and see how it's moving and all those things. So, but that, that's, I mean, it's a funny story and it tells you something about Phil. And you know, when Layman told it to me, he was cracking up and was like, it's mad about it. You just could, you know, utter disbelief. All right. Well, where can people, where's the best place people can, can get the book and through what avenues can they do?

So, well, you know, I always see your local independent bookstore, which, um, but of course, it's on Amazon. It's pretty much everywhere. Um, release date is May 17th. So if you go to Amazon, I'll show you the whatever their pre-order price is. But on the actual 17th, it'll drop to the normal at 30 or 40 percent off. And I'm actually, I'm going to, I'll tweet out a link, but there's a little mom and pop bookstore here in Carmel, California. And we're selling books to them. If you do want to support a local indie and you don't have one in your hometown and they'll have

signed books and I can personalize them and that sort of things that I'll probably just pin that on my on my Twitter, but you know, I would say also the audiobooks really fun like I've gotten into audiobooks myself and I read it took me four days and they were going to hire some Broadway actor to do it who I'm sure does not know how to pronounce Jose, Mario Alfaable, and would not really be as invested in the material. And like, I know where the jokes are, I can set them up and I know the dramatic tension. And so I, the audio book to me is really fun if, if you're into that sort of thing. But, you know, whatever, check out of your library, I don't care. Like, and this is actually been a funny thing. I just wanted people to say, oh, you know, when these experts jump, you're just trying to sell books. Well, I mean, as a writer, whenever you write something,

you want people to read that. I think every writer on the planet would say that. And for them to read it, they kind of have to buy it. I don't know, but by all means, if you can get a pirated copy and make, have your buddy buy it, and he can make Xeroxes for the whole book club, I don't care.

I just want people to read it because I put it, you know, two years of my life into it. I'm really proud of it. And I think it's really fun. So, well, I can attest to that as well. And on behalf of our listeners, thank you again for taking an hour plus now with us to share some stories from it and talk about the process and all of this was, this was fantastic. So thanks to get out. Yeah. Thanks for having me. It's been a while. You never write, you never call, but I'm glad I'm back. I'm back in the good graces of the Nolan. I've always been in good graces. Things just get very busy and you know how it is. I know I'm busy man yourself. So thanks again, everyone, and please All right, thanks Chris. Get the right club. Be the right club today. Yes!

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