No Laying Up - Golf Podcast - NLU Podcast, Episode 564: LIV Updates + Zac Blair

Episode Date: June 8, 2022

Soly and Tron catch up on the bizarre unveiling of the LIV golf teams ahead of the first event in London later this week and take best guesses at what comes next. Then, Zac Blair returns to the pod (29:30) to offer his perspective on the LIV saga and the potential response of the PGA Tour. We also get into the latest on the Buck Club and Tree Farm projects, his road back from shoulder surgery, and more. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

I'm going to be the right club today. Yes. That is better than most. How about him? That is better than most. Better than most. all this stuff that was planned with with Liv golf. We're gonna chat about it. We chat some about it with ZB on the back after this. We have a full length interview with Zach Blair talking about all the things going on in his life over the last several years, which are very interesting,

but also wanted to ask him about, you know, what this all means for a current PGA tour player, all the ongoing in the world of golf, but we gotta have some fun on the front end as well, talking about the ridiculousness of these team names and everything else going on. So before we do that, this episode is brought to you by our friends at Woop, the personalized digital fitness and health coach and official fitness wearable of the PGA and LPGA tours.

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I'm not going to do that because I know it costs me in sleep. I'm going to pay for it tomorrow. I see the actual data. My heart does not calm down overnight. It's just an example of great data that you get from this device and the all new waterproof device is free when you sign up for a Woop 4.0 membership. For any members, if you have six months left of membership on your account, you can upgrade now

and get the 4.0 for free. And right now, Woop is offering 15% off when you use code NLU15 at checkout. So go to Woop.com, WHOP.com, enter NLU15 at checkout to save 15%. Here is me in TC, and following that will be Zach Blair. I'm not called an emergency pod, but like I feel like this wasn't really planned, but I feel like we had to react to today.

We had to do it to him. I, uh, yeah, we definitely don't want to dignify the Saudis third leg Greg with, with the emergency label, but I'm not Regis Day that was from start to finish. I'm, I blame myself for not seeing it coming. Like this should have been, I guess, more on my radar. When I woke up, I already felt like I was behind with all this stuff, you know, this happening several time zones ahead of, you know, Dij, I gosh, it feels like, it feels like forever ago

that DJ resigned as PGA tour membership, but that happened today, along with a slew of other players and these team names and the draft and the captains and the, oh my God, dude, the logos, that was today, along with a slew of other players and these team names and the draft and the captains and the oh my god dude, the logos, that was today, how was that all today? It feels like a month ago now. Yeah, I mean, I don't even know where to start, right? It's, I mean, first and foremost, I think, like I just have to acknowledge, like a, by pointing out the absurdity of all this, we're not, you know, like,

tacitly supporting what this is, right? It's almost like we're, it's almost like, it's so bad, it's good at this point, but also like, I just can't get away from the fact that, like, God, these people are so, I'm not sure if ineptitude is the right word, or just like, there's just a lot of, like,

weird shit going on, and there's just a lot of like weird shit going on and There's just so like yeah, I guess it aptitude is the right word like the PJ tours got so lucky that these people are in charge of this and it's so ham-fisted like I guess they're gonna do a draft like this every week I guess that's what I don't understand what affiliation or affinity We're supposed to have for each of these teams like are the teams gonna change? I know the players on each team are gonna change every week are the team names gonna be up for grabs every week? Do they you know do they or is it gonna be I mean there's no way these these team names have to stay the like the way they are four aces high flyers punch

have to stay the way they are. Four aces, high flyers, punch, cleaks, ironhead, smash, crushers, majestic, stinger. You gotta read some of the description. Oh my God, fireballs, nibbliks, torque, golf club. Like, and then they sent a press release out that just like describe like why their name certain things, like four aces, I thought like,

all right, that's four of a kind, like for poker or something like that. No, it's a slang term for golf's greatest magic trick, the whole in one. That's what they put in their press release for the four aces. What was your favorite description? Well, I like the one that, you know,

they kind of tried to get cheeky and tried to match up Spio. And, you know, he's got Puyg on his team as well. Like the, the fiery Spaniards, right? The fireball. It's a fun and exciting identity, which embodies golf and its wildest and all for a team that will hope to be on fire this week. Like, this is the worst, this is the worst of sports. Like this is, it is just like, I mean, I, I saw the, like seeing the images of Phil sitting at that desk, looking a little dead behind the eyes, you know, welcoming TK, chanted non-awatt to his team and like consulting with Justin Harding as to who their last pick was going

to be. This is 13 months after he beats Brooks Keppka, four time major champion in the final round of the PGA. He's selecting his younger brother, Chase Keppka, with the last pick for the, or his last pick for the live golf invitational series. Like this is just like beyond, it's beyond movie script at this point. parody. Yeah, I told KBV today, I was like, hey, like, please, because he, he tweeted something he's like, hey, like, this is not a joke. He put it in parentheses. I'm like, you need to do that for all your tweets. Is that's like, it's tough to decipher what's a joke and

what's not a joke. Um, and like, so I think, you know, there were probably some people in the audience that are like, oh, like, you know, there were probably some people in the audience that were like, oh, like, you guys are just giving this thing oxygen and everything like that. Like, it needs to be very clear. Like, I don't, I don't plan on like, like, I'll watch a little bit of the golf,

but like, I don't plan on like taking this shit seriously or giving it any oxygen beyond like, making fun of it, right? I mean, it's just, it's laughable. And like, some of these teams are like themselves are just they're so bad It's crazy. It's very bad. Some of the teams are And I'm with you in that the the analogy I see going around and is like should journalists only cover the wars that they agree with like This is the biggest thing to happen in I'm not gonna say professional golf history But like this is one of our time. This is the biggest thing that's ever happened.

We could be very well witnessing the complete collapse of the PGA tour. If we talked on the back half of this with Zach Blair, we talked some about strength of field things and how things could come tumbling down very quickly and how honestly man, this seems like, for as much as we're gonna make fun of this, this is the worst it's gonna be.

We said this on Sundays, the worst the field's gonna be, more is coming, and this thing is going to be, I have a feeling this is going to be what the future of ProGolf looks like. I really do. Are we gonna make fun of that yet? Does it suck, yes? But I'm with you in that this is not a serious golf product,

yet could it possibly end up that way? Maybe, but like, man, is this just like a total total shit show to this point? It feels like they're like, it kind of feels like the slime cup or something, right? Like it just feels inherently un-serious and just, you know, like, and yeah, even if they layer more, you know, better players in and all that I still don't think it changes the tenor and the the you know atmosphere around this thing feeling like just a total shitshow you know. I got to say I'm like decently impressed with like the presentation like the like I don't know where to go with that impressed with like the presentation, like, I don't know where to go with that.

In terms of like, the party looked like a very big deal, very crowded room, and was it like, you know, the tech elements of it were, you know, there, and we didn't get to see the stream of it, but it was like, ah, fuck, man, this thing does feel very real now, and it's not easy to have put together a tournament like this in the time frame that they have.

And all of the gistics that go on behind that, now look, is there plenty of stuff that, like getting people's names wrong on all the posted things like that? Yeah, that's going to be easy to be. Yeah, it's like basic shit. I know. I mean, I like, like, it should feel somewhat coherent. The fact that they spend as much money as they have, right? And the fact that they couldn't come up

with better branding for the teams or better logos or just like televised the draft when that's one of your main differentiators. It's just, I don't know, like I'm trying to stay level headed and be serious on a certain level about it because it's worth talking about structurally and how this affects the toward everything like that, but at the end of the day too, it's just so jarring.

It's almost like dystopian to watch all of this happen kind of as a side show today. And then the PGA tour just marches on Twitter, on Instagram, or on golf channel, like nothing's going on. And the RBC, Canadian Open is going on. And there's, you know, and granted, there were a hell of a lot of withdrawals today. And I'm not sure if that's just because it's a bunch of unvaxed guys withdrawing or guys that are further

gone the priority list, they weren't planning on being there and their passports not today or something. But just a weird, like juxtaposition, right? Of like the tour feels like they're just going along with it. And, you know, I just don't know what mona and like what's his counter to this at some point? Is it the punishments?

Is that the next thing? Like they don't want to acknowledge it because then that'll be a side of weakness. I don't know what, my understanding is that they're waiting for punishments until balls win in the air, like until the shots are played on Thursday. What is the play though? I don't know what they, I mean, the play has was like 10 years ago, changing this shit, right? Of course, like, I don't know if there is like a play in on a hands playbook right now. I'm not

looking at him right now as like, wow dude, like why aren't you doing anything this week? It's too late. Yeah, it's like you should have done something, you know, over the last 18 to 24 months while everybody knew this was coming down the pike or I mean shit, like we've been talking about it. People have been asking us why we're talking about it.

It's been interesting to watch some golf media people who poo-pooed it or made it, you know, made it like not a real threat. And now they're like, oh my God, well, of course this is happening. This is, and it's like, it's really interesting to see the shift in tone from people. They're like, oh my God, they got DJ.

Well, this is a totally different thing. It's like, yeah, like what the fuck did you guys think was gonna happen? Like they're willing to spend like four to eight billion dollars on this thing, you know? Like at some point, I just feel like Monahan needs to step up to the plate. And like, it just feels like the empty threats are, it's like catalyzed membership against him.

Yeah, I don't know. I know he has to protect the membership. And so I don't know what, you know, what, you know, he said he's gonna ban people, they're gonna leave. I struggle to find out like what the play is though, you know, what, you know, he said he's gonna ban people, they're gonna leave. I struggle to find out like what, what the play is though, you know what I mean? Yeah, I just don't know like on the ban front, right?

Like what's the, like, I mean, even the bylaws, it says like these guys that are resigning, like all right, they can resign and then sit out a year and take up membership again. And it's not in the bylaw, like they haven't broken any rules technically. So they'd have to pass new rules. Yeah, and then, you know, if another wave of guys is gonna go and do this

after the US open, go for the Portland event. And then again, there's gonna be another wave of guys that leaves, it does it for the, you know, after the FedEx Cup, basically they top themselves up, get another year's service in the PGA tour, top themselves up for the FedEx Cup, and then we even do it. You know, like we've heard,

like I'm wearing the Brooks rumors sound, I don't, that doesn't sound, I mean like, Brooks would make a ton of sense, because he's like injured and longevity, and it just seems like he's like the money guy, but also like, it doesn't, like from would make a ton of sense because he's like injured and longevity and it just seems like he's like the one-a-guy, but also like it doesn't, like from everything I've heard, it sounds like he's out on this. And but, you know, Bryson, it sounds like he's in.

I have to imagine Kochrack, Abe Answer, Varner, like those guys were coming down the pike, right? Bryson's is, I threw that out there today, expecting an announcement. I don't know when the announcement is going to come. That's the part I'm not a million percent confident in. But I got, even after I tweeted that, had two other people reach out, like Brysons 100% going, like he's going, which, I mean, that's where I'm like, back and up dude, like the DJ thing is, like the DJ is the one that he's the pioneer

in this, like he's the one that burst this door down that like people are gonna follow. And if he doesn't do it, I do doubt if that door bursts, but now that it's open, it's they're gonna come flooding through. I just heard right before we got on an absurd amount of money for a player that if I was to ask you to guess what the player was, it would take you on your 25th guess what it was for that person to in. And it's just like, oh my god, if they're throwing

that around, dude, like, there's no nothing to stop them. Like, they are going to spend even more money than we've been talking about to this point. And just totally wash out the sport. It's embarrassing. Well, that's the thing. It's not even about golf, right? It's just like golf's the pawn and all this and then, you know, are these players of the pawns or whatever, but like, if you have, it feels like it's kind of, it felt like best and final offers were a week ago

or two weeks ago, like, no, I feel like that's just starting now, right? Like these guys are starting to see the money and their eyes and all that, but yeah, DJ made me, made more money because he stuck, because he stuck his neck out and did it, you know? I don't know. It's just and then like already flesher coming in and being the press guy and I guess the AP, you know, the one of the AP reporters got thrown out of the press conference today. It's just,

it's insane, man. The whole thing's just like a, it's like like, it's like a cartoon or like a circus. Tough scene for Graham McDowell today too. A guy I've long been a fan of of just like, yeah, what happened there was, you know, with Kishogi and the human rights, it's horrible. But I believe in the game of golf and then I'm happy to help them get there basically. I'm like, dude, you literally just like in a minute and a half, less than that, like explained why you're here. here like I'm not a politician I know you guys hate that phrase it's like no dude like you're a pawn for the politicians and you saying you're gonna help Saudi Arabia get there is the role that they are paying you

All this money to go to play like you are playing this game you can't fall back on you're not a politician and That was just like the textbook answer, man. And it just a lot of people are like, dude, how they've had so much time to come up with answers for all of these questions and all this and this is the best they've come up with. It's like, dude, there isn't a good answer. There's never a good, there's not a good answer for this human rights element. So I know a lot of people are really sick of hearing that side of it and they want to pull out all the hypocrites and what about some stuff that relates to it. But like, if you just boil it down to and just address this one, there is no good answer no way to address it.

And Phil is by the time you're listening to this pod, Phil is going to be having his, uh, his presser, um, 9 a.m. local time, 4 a.m. Eastern time tomorrow. And, uh, I can't wait to see how he's able to spin it. Yeah. No, and I think just from our standpoint here, then like the USGA comes out with their statement today, basically leaves, you know, I'm not sure if it's not necessarily a forward-looking statement, but it's definitely, you know, this year's US Open, these guys are going to get banned, it's an open tournament, right? And I think that's where, you know, I would

anticipate the Masters' pie takes up firmer stance, but, you know, I just can't see like the RNA and the USGA banning guys were going and team it up in an event. Which I think is the right move. And then that starts to, I think that's the right move. I do. Yeah. It's this, uh, this is a PGA tour versus live thing. This is not, you know, in Mike one state, I assume that statement came from Mike one to say like, we set our criteria like that, that, and people

qualified based on it, right? It's, they didn't break a USGA rule to not be in there. Like they should be able to play that. And as much as I'm not a fan of this thing, like that, that one felt pretty slam dunk for me. Um, but yeah, I think from what we've heard, it sounds like a gust. It may have may have a very different opinion of this thing. Yeah, like I guess Willet reached out and I really get you. Like you won't even be allowed back on property. So, which that might have just been for Willet. I don't know if that's all Masters champions.

That might have just been for him. Yeah, I mean, God, there's just so many like downstream things to talk about too, that you've got the, we got the US Open next week where like that's gonna turn into a total cluster fuck as far as just media stuff and Nicholson coming back and bracing all that stuff. Tigers are not playing the Open, which I'm glad to stay healthy for St. Andrews for the JP McManus program, of course as well.

for the JP McManus program, of course as well. But, you know, just from the fact too of, like, you know, just talking about this, like, stripping away the human rights stuff, like, this just isn't how I want golf to look, right? It just seems like, and like, there's not a way for these guys to, like, that's why I don't understand, like, it makes, it actually makes more sense for a guy like DJ

who's exempted into the majors from here on out for the next four or five years. It makes a hell of a lot less sense for a guy like Taylor Gooch, who's not. And what it, he seems to be kind of in that, he's not making enough money to make it worth it and he doesn't have enough of a track record to get into all the majors because it's going to be like, you know, like, if they're not, let's say they're getting super, super limited

world ranking points for these events and for, you know, the Asian tour events that they're probably going to have to turn up at a couple of times a year to, you know, fulfill their contract. Well, like, it just doesn't seem like there's a whole lot of, of upside or connectivity that's going to allow these guys to like be a part of the larger ecosystem. Unless this thing, you know, totally blows it up over the next three months and, you know, 20 guys end up jumping out of the top 50. And the tour media contracts get totally nuked and CBS and NBC can basically renegotiate or walk away from the contracts and then it's total free for all in the sweepstakes.

And at that point, like at some point, I think we're at the juncture where Monahan has to start getting creative and start saying, like, all right, like I've overplayed my hand. I've misplaced this. This is a much bigger threat than we even anticipated. We got to talk to the PGL guys or we got to, I mean, shit, like the, the rory thing with cold, like the hot mic on the range, he's like, hey, like we got to figure out how to get some of that PGL money or some of that, you know, silver like, like egon dermid money, like, like, how do we get that flowing

in a PJ tour, create this equity and do all that? Like, because like, the guys that are being punished the most by this are the guys that aren't leaving who are also drastically underpaid on the PJ tour. So the ROMs and the Roris and those guys that, like, they're the ones that are bringing the juice. And then you've got a guy like Kevin Nah making an ungodly amount of money from the Saudis for like,

like nobody likes Kevin Nah. Like his fellow like his peers don't like Kevin Nah. Like fans don't like Kevin Nah. It's just, it's no good. It sucks. The wrong guys are getting totally rewarded. This is me off. And that's where I feel like Monance play of like,

we're bearing people that leave is like, this is my protection for the guys that are staying, right? Like I owe it to these guys that are sticking around in the ecosystem to like, you know, we can't let people have it both ways. And that's, it was a, you know, trying to do a stopgap. And it's, it doesn't seem to be enough to also just think like, man, like like it is such a ridiculous threat, like this seemingly endless pile of money that like it seems like almost anything they would have done couldn't have stopped it at the same time. Like I don't know if there was a way for him to have gotten Dustin Johnson 200 million dollars or whatever DJ ended up getting or whatever Phil ended up getting. Like I don't think that there was a way for, let's say Taylor Gooch made 20 million dollars. There was not a way to get all of these people that much money to stop them from doing this.

I think some of that's true, but also it seems like the whole thing has been, it's not like they've showed a bunch of ideas or creativity. What's the last thing they can not with those creative, the PIP? And that was almost more insulting for some of these guys than it was valuable, right? They're like, oh, you're going to, very cool. Like, where was this money in the first place? Cool. You're going to buy us off with this. You're pissing off the 11th guy or the 12th guy. You're almost doing more harm than good with something like the pip, right? It's like a band-aid. And I think that's the issue with the tour as well. It's been decades since Finch,

since, you know, well in Definchems, 10 years of like just resting on their laurels and not issue with the tour as well. It's been decades since well and the Finchems tenure of just resting on their laurels and not evolving the product and not growing the pie. They're extracting more from corporate partners for doing the same stuff, but at some point, they're not structurally changing the tour. The TV product still sucks. The app is terrible. The, in like, I know they've told us that the app is like,

all this stuff contributes to the fan experience and the sponsor experience too. And like, I mean, shit, how do you feel if you're RBC this week? Oh, God. Like, how pissed would you be? You haven't had your tournament in two years, since 2019, three years.

And, you know, two of your guys get nuked off the team, and then, yeah, the field, you've got Rory, and you've got a few other guys, but on the flip side, they're going so far down the priority list, you have fucking John Houston getting in the event. It's insane. And it's like the tour,

even without this saudi stuff, the tour is structurally broken. Yes. Right? I think this is laying it all bare. And it's time for the tour to not respond just with threats, but also respond with, like, raise your fucking hand and say,

you know what, we have a problem here, then we're gonna address it. Instead of just throwing money, like, yeah, they're gonna have to throw a lot of money at the problem in the form of paying these players and making like what they're worth and trying to counter that way, but they're also gonna have like structurally fix

the issue as well, you know, and I'm not sure if they're capable of that. I'm gonna probably have what you said there, is like have to pay them what they're worth. When you're up against somebody who's paying them way more than what they're worth. Like it is such a, like it is such a ridiculous, you know, again, you're up against somebody who's paying them way more than what they're worth. Like, it is such a, like, it is such a ridiculous, you know, again, you're up against somebody who's leaked does not need to make business sense to the point that like,

it's, it's like funny money. It's, it's absolutely insane. They're just not going to be able to reach anywhere near those numbers. Yeah. I don't even think they need to, so like, I don't even think they need to meet those numbers though, right? Like, I think there's this simmering undercurrent that amongst guys that, that they're underpaid and that the tours mismanaged and all that. And if that wasn't present, and if the, you know, the dollars are never going to be equal. But the fact that simmering undercurrent is there is part of the problem, right? Where it makes it to where somebody's more willing to completely nuke shit and jump it the opportunity to make that much money instead of saying you know what that's a lot of money but I'm I'm set here and I feel like they're doing a good job and

this is this is my home like it just makes that conversation or that justification that much easier you know I mean also like it just seems like with some of these guys like the schedule I mean shit because like even like some of it comes down to schedule for some of these guys They'll play 12 times a year and make more money than they were before even without the appearance fees or the the upfront money You know a guy with a young family like that's that's something to wear like the same guys have been telling Monahan for years. Like, you do the schedules of fucking mass. Like, we have too many tournaments. You make us play, like, you make us feel like we have to play year round. We never get time off for chasing our tail on that front. The tour hasn't done anything about it. And they've intimated,

hey, we're gonna make big wholesale changes to the fall. Like, all right, cool. Like show us your work, you know? And make it so it's not just a bunch of shitty WGC style solutions, you know? Yeah, I think yeah, it goes back to it just being structurally broken, because the last tournaments you have, the more guys are going to want to go play European tour and other events and Asian tour and big money events.

So you got to stand up an event to say like, no, no, you remember this tour and we have an event this weekend, you got to go play here. It's just, it is a mess and maybe it, maybe this, you know, is a great thing that, you know, it has to come all the way down to get built back up. But man, it just, it feels like it's just more likely that they're gonna make another poor decision

at the end of this and it's not gonna come back up. But I don't even care, like for us that have been calling us the PGA Tour dick riders, I don't really, I don't care if it's the PGA Tour that ends up on the other side of this. I just want to entertain a golf product. I don't care if it's PGL, I would prefer it not to be funded by a regime like this. It haven't be focused on the actual fan experience. But it's, this is not, this ain't it.

This is going from one bad option to like a worse option. Yeah. And then, you know, just on that note too, like, I think it's, you know, it comes down to like, all right, like what, like, like, how, how better could the PGA tour operate? Is that partnering with PGL? Is that, you know, doing more with the European tour? Because I think it like, this is just to be the iceberg. If these lawsuits go the way they were thinking, these bands get struck down. The Saudis are an issue but so are like there's going to be other shit that pops up too. This is like you know guys will go play Saudi stuff but you know what let's say the Australian open says you know what we're going to play

we're going to play the same week as Kapilua every year and we're going to make this a $15 million perse or $20 million perse you know, what come over here and play and there's nothing stopping those guys from going over and playing and skipping Kapalua or something like that. Like, you know, just, or the mat, like different matches or different exhibitions. Like it totally nukes the total bit, you know,

their entire business model. So. That's gonna be good. Yeah, I just, yeah, no, for sure. Yeah, and then, God, I'm else were missing well Phil interview came out with Bob Herrick talking about the gambling issues and His his take on sports washing as well. I I encourage you to read that I don't I don't really even feel the need to discuss it that much We'll probably discuss it at the end of this week, but yeah, it's we're not we're just getting started

But felt like there was this will feel like old news by the time we get to our Sunday recap. So figure we needed to tackle it now. We might need to go to a daily show, man, as we're getting pretty close. Yeah, I was just going to say props to the Friday guys for getting, they've got some sort of deep throat scoop or source inside of lift golf. They're feeding all sorts of, I mean, that's the other thing, like the talking points that they're coming up with and the stuff that they're providing these players, like it's pretty like elementary school shit. I mean, it's not, you know, it's not rocket science stuff between that and the graphics and all that.

I'm just like, man, like the Saudis, like just room, like I'm just leveling with you, like you guys should be getting more for your money here, you know, I, I, I assume you're going to join me in being a big supporter of Team Smash with C1 Kim, Scott Vincent, Genituro, Kazuma and itty pitat, Burena, Tannenre, Yaret. I know that's your squad, man. And I, you know, I respect it, but I'm, uh, I'm, I'm crushers GC Peter, you line squad. You pull off a trade today. That's why I love you know. I love that there was there was no considerations in the trade. It was just like. All right. We decided afterwards to swap players. I wonder if somebody for live got involved and said for some reason we need to switch this up. But anyways, we'll we'll see Phil will probably give us a lot more tomorrow to talk about and

tomorrow to talk about and without any further delay, we're going to check in with our friends at Original Penguin instead of ZB. Before we turn it over to ZB here, a quick shout out to our friends at Original Penguin. You've seen us wear their stuff in so many of our videos I'm wearing, my favorite blue hoodie. Right now, I can't believe somehow this thing has lasted me over two years now. I still see pictures pop up on my time hop of me wearing the same exact shirt. I should probably go on there, go to originalpelPingwen.com and buy some new stuff. Couple of things.

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Let's get to Zack Blair. ZB, it has been a while, my friend. What have you been up to? Nothing just live in life. Kind of live. You started with live, living life. Oh man, what a wild, wild couple of days. Definitely, you know, a lot of stuff coming out today has been crazy. We got a lot to talk to you about, with you about, man, I just been a very long day. We're recording this on Tuesday of,

of the first live event. How closely would you say you've followed this whole situation? Not very closely, but it's definitely been fun to throw the chair out and grab some popcorn in the last couple of weeks, for sure. I mean, it was obviously in the news, leading up and kind of around that time, the whole fill you know, basically around what was it like Riviera or whatever and it seemed like back then they had, you know, a decent group of people that were kind of ready to jump over and then that whole thing

happened and it seemed like everybody, you know, quickly aborted. So I followed it very, you know, not not closely, but had my eye on it here and there. Based solely on the team names, which live team would you want to be on? I mean, fireballs. Fireballs to the low goes so good. Everyone was making fun of it.

And I was kind of like, I kind of like that one actually. It's so bad. You know, it's kind of bad enough and like retro enough that it's like 90s, you know, like minor league baseball team or something, you know, it was crazy. Like some of those are so bad. And it's, you know, I saw somebody say it, it's like anything they would have come out with, everyone would have been, you know,

piling on pretty good, but at the same time, like, well, like they, uh, they didn't kill me. They did not, yeah, they did not craft it. As somebody who is a logo nut, if I may say that I was very, very excited to chat with you about about this, this looks like clip art to me. I mean, I really think that if you gave me a full day and I don't know how to do any graphics, I could come up with things that were,

I could come up with 12 of these that were better than this. I mean, it definitely was bad. And just the names themselves, like, you know, 90% of them were like so bad, like what are you doing? I would have just rather than been like the captain's names, you know, or like what I mean Again, there's like anything was gonna be bad. I think anything was gonna be easy to make fun of but they definitely didn't help themselves with In the logo department or the name department

Do you think that there's a whole another wave of guys that will be you know in Portland? You know they had this field that a lot of people are making fun of ourselves included. What are you expecting the Portland field to be like? You know, it's funny because the field when I saw it, everyone was making fun of it, everyone was talking about how bad it was. And I was kind of looking at it, like, it's not quite as bad as I thought it was going to be. It does have a decent amount of recognizable, big-ish names, maybe more of them on the European side.

But there are some players that are still pretty good, obviously. But I do have the feeling that there's definitely a pretty big group of people probably just kind of sitting back in the bushes waiting to see exactly what's going to happen on Thursday, right? It does the tour come out and put all these things in place. There's obviously the world ranking points, the situation with are they going to be able to play in a lot of these majors, you know, past this year and that whole sort of thing.

So I think once that stuff gets cleared up, you'll probably see a lot more guys, you know, given it a try. But I do think there's kind of another little, a few more aces up the sleeve, possibly, for Portland. What does this all mean for you? For some of that's not playing the league, you know, what, what, you know, are you worried about the PGA tour, the future of the PGA tour? I mean, I think you're always going to have the PGA tour. They're probably going to have to, you know, sit back and kind of rethink the strategy and, you know, kind of see

where they might have messed up, if you will, or how they can do better. And DJ said at the other day to me, pretty, it seemed so bulletproof for so long until something like this happened. And now it's kind of like holy cow. There's probably, there's a lot of problems with it that people are kind of pointing out or seeing. So I do think the PGA tour is not going anywhere, but this kind

of has probably opened them up to some things that they need to address and do better. Just to clarify, it's DJ Pie, not Dustin Johnson who told you that. I guess DJ Pie. Where I'm coming from on that is there is. You don't know that. You don't know that. There is this strength of field clause in some of these contracts that you know a lot of what the tour has pulled out over recent years in terms of it be able to increase money you know blah blah pip and play you know play 15 all these things and players purse

going up FedEx got money going up all these things seem contingent on like the like the stars not leaving the sport. And if this kind of, you know, if the floodgates really open here and more guys leave, it does seem like it can fall apart. These are the things that held up TV negotiations when they went through it before they signed that massive contract. And man, it just feels like it kind of feels like the before part in a movie. To get to this point feels totally ridiculous.

I would not have imagined we would have got to this point, but here we are. So like now nothing feels like it would be ridiculous after this. Am I on to anything with that? Are you familiar with any of that? Yeah, I mean, it just seems like they have a lot of horses that are really in their corner. Like big, big names. It really feels like Justin Thomas and Rory McElroy and John Rom and Colin Markow.

It just seems like they have a lot of people that are big, big names, recognizable like young stars that are kind of going to bat for them. So it might be a situation where there is like a big divide and you know, some other pretty recognizable people and good players, you know, jump shift and do that. But I do think they really have a pretty strong stable of people that are going to stick around, obviously. And it seems like they'll be able to obviously fill fields and provide a product, even if they kind of have to go back

and rethink some things and tweak some stuff with the whole model, but I think they'll be all right. Yeah, I'm not worried about it being able to fill fields although they're having some issues this week. You know, John Houston just got into a field. But I just, I, man. I've never understood, I've never understood like why they can't just go short, you know?

It's just like, yeah, man, we've gotten to the point where this is getting ridiculous. Let's just play it like 120, you know, or like whatever it may be. It's like, let's just cut it off. But that, that's kind of like again, like one of the things, that there's a lot of things that they should address and should fix.

Maybe this is the opportunity to do it. I may have the detail this wrong, but I believe at least a component of executive pay is based on the number of playing opportunities provided over the course of a year. So I would imagine that being a reason why they would want to fill fields as much as possible. But I don't know that for a fact,

but that has heard something along those lines. But I guess I'm not as worried about filling the fields as I am, like the money source. If that changes, if that changes, then does the whole, I wouldn't be opposed to the PGA tour being blown up in a totally new model. You know, I've heard from people close to the situation and say everything is on the table,

but I just thought that'd be an interesting talk with somebody who is, you know, is, whose livelihood depends on this, if they have an opinion on it or are hearing things or, you know, how they see it unfolding. Yeah, I mean, I mean, you kind of nailed it. You know, definitely something to be worried about, but I think that they could restructure it and figure it out, whether it be changing the model or whatever.

I think they would figure something out to work for the money source. You know what I mean? I'm not worried about. I'm kind of sitting back, kind of thankful that I'm not quite playing yet. So I can kind of see what happens and it's been pretty entertaining the last, you know, week or two. So it's kind of a wait and see situation. Well, let's talk about that. If you know, for people that maybe aren't familiar with you or you haven't been on the podcast in a long time, but they say, well, what the exact Blair,

I haven't seen his name on a leaderboard in a long time. Why are they talking to him? Where, where's ZB bed? What's going on with you, health wise? Yeah, so I had shoulder surgery, like at the end of 2020, I think. So it was kind of right, you know, right before the start of the Sony Open, I guess. Like I withdrew or missed the cut in Vegas and then came home and had my shoulder looked at

and I had a couple of tears in my right leg, brum. So got that fixed and repaired and had surgery on it at the end of 2020 and just kind of been, getting back healthy and then I had some problems with my left rotator cuff and my left shoulder. So it's been kind of a battle getting healthy again, but definitely feel like it's close to where I needed to be. And it was really fun, you know, playing yesterday

for the first time in basically like a couple of years, you know, teeing it up and counting all the strokes and not having any mulligans or gimmies or, you know, holes where it didn't really matter. So it was fun getting kind of back into the swing of things and looking forward to Picking back up later this fall. I have like 25 starts or something like that on a major medical So, you know basically a full year to to go out and play good Well for those of our familiar wherever you where were you playing yesterday and and how did that go?

I was at us open sectionals up in Springfield, Ohio, that Springfield Country Club. I shot three over, I shot three over and even. I played like, I felt like I played a lot better than I scored. It was kind of, again, one of those things hadn't played a real meaningful round in a year and a half or so like where I actually had to make like three footers and tap ins and like I said, counting all the strokes.

So I definitely went into it, basically like a free roll, right? I was exempt into sectionals because of being inside the top whatever in the past five years. So I kind of looked at it like, look, might as well go play, kind of see how the game is leading into, you know, maybe some of these rehab starts on the Cornferrey Tour later this summer. And definitely left, you know, extremely, you know,

positive like, okay, I still got it. I can still go out there and compete and play with these guys. So that was fun. But I think like four under, three under, four under ended up making it. So, you know, it's not like I was one or two shots off, but definitely it was kind of one of those things where it was, it was closer than it appeared. That's kind of how I'll put it. So how's that work with, you know, coming off a major medical, how do you game plan out how you want to come back? You said rehab starts on the corn fairy tour to those count in your 25 starts or how do you, you know, is are you better off timing it up with the start of the new season?

How does all of that work and what are you in control of and what are you not in control of? Honestly, I'm like a little gray in all of this stuff too. I'm kind of just like, I'll just go do it and play good, you know, worry about it later. But so I have 25 starts, I think. And then I have four or five corn fairy tour rehab starts that don't count against, you know, the tour starts. So they basically give you some warm-up events, right? To kind of, like I played yesterday, that one didn't count as one, but to kind of go out there, post injury,

like post recovery, and basically see if you can compete at the level that you're gonna need to compete at for the season. My plan was always to, like, come back in the middle of this year, like, kind of right now on the tour. So I was going to use some of those corn fairy tour rehab starts, like, you know, in the, like, previous couple of months, after talking to everybody, they were kind of like, you definitely want to start at the start of a season. For whatever reason, I don't really know.

I don't really know why. I just know that I have to go make X amount of points to keep my tour card. So. Yeah, that's where it always confuses me, right? It's like, if you split your starts between the two years, are you trying to accumulate a certain amount of points, right? Or are you just trying to get 125,

being the top 125 anyways to keep your card, or you need a certain amount of points based on a pro-rated number or something like that? So they take the points from my year that whatever it was, when I stopped playing, so that was the 2020-2021 season. So they take whatever the top 125 was that year, say it was 500 points, even though it probably wasn't. But say it was 500 points, that's how many points I have to get.

I played three events, I want to say, and I had like three points. I made like one cut in like You know, I don't know where it was, but so I have to make 497 points in my 25 events Now the the one thing that I don't know so if you split it up, you know if I was to start this fall and then play 12 events this year in the 2000, you know, 21, 22 season and then play 12 events in the next season. I don't, you know, you can't, you're only running against one total where I don't know if you start in the fall like I'm going to, I don't know if I'll be running against two point

totals, right? Like because I'm playing that full year next year. So I don't know how it all works really. I just know like I gotta go play, you know, play good and make enough points. You're almost better off not knowing exactly what you need to do or what not just going playing golf. If you've got a big runway, that's got to make it so much easier. Here, guys, you know, they have three starts left and they got to go pick their courses

and things like that, man. Exactly. So much pressure when you go tee it up. But, yeah, minds like, minds like basically a full season coming off the web, but I also have the ability to pick, you know, anywhere I want to go that year. So I can get into some of those bigger events, like waste management or some of the events that the guys coming out of the Cornfairy category, like maybe when it get into, I can go play those events.

But at the same time, that's about how many events that somebody coming off the Cornfairy would play in in a season. So it's not like it's, it's not doable, right? It's the same thing. It's just got to go play good. And it's basically like a full season. So what definitely looking forward to it's, it's, uh, you know, I love competing. So what's it like being away from the game just in general? I mean, you are one of the most psycho golfers. I know not including your professional career, which is absurd. Like, like, you play more fun rounds of golf than anybody else. I know on top of trying to play professionally. What's, you know, what's it been like to not be

able to do that? So I had surgery in the fall of 2020, and I didn't play for like seven months. Like, didn't even pick up a club for seven months. So that was the first time, you know, in my life that I can remember, you know, not playing golf almost every day. And then once I was able to golf again, I definitely, it's not like I just went out there and started playing every day. I bet I've played like under 35 or 40 rounds in two years. I used to play 35 rounds a month.

I mean, so it's definitely been very interesting and very new. I've had a lot of things happen in that time period. I had a couple of kids. I've had the project in South Carolina going on. So I've had a ton of things, you know, taking up my time and, you know, it's been really cool spending it with the family. And it's been such a different lifestyle, just being able to be at home and not traveling every day of every week and going from hotel to hotel on city to city, that it's been really,

really cool. And it's, it's honestly just how it worked out. And then on top of that, I had like COVID right before that whole thing where the tour was stopped. So, so really, I've almost had like three years of like living a normal life where I got like where I'm at home like most of the time. So it's been, you know, it's been cool for sure, but definitely looking forward to getting back out and playing golf. A little casual that was, you had a couple kids, you know, here in this time off.

Very just throw it in there. What's dad life like? Well, it's great, man. It's wild, got two little boys. One of them's just a couple months old and then CB's, you know, about almost two. So it's great.

It's been really cool. And, you know, blessed my wife. She's, you know, got her hands full with three boys in the house and a couple of dogs. She's, you know, just fighting for her life every day, trying to survive. I've tried to think the last time I saw you when that was. I feel like I used to see you about once a month

and I'm realize that it's been, like I used to see you about once a month and I'm realize that it's been, it's got to be years, huh? I mean a long time, man. I mean, literally, I would, I would probably, I honestly think it might have been the corn fairy finals at Atlantic Beach. Like, I think Jesus. I mean, it's at least three and a half years ago, right? I mean, for a long time.

Ring or three, maybe I think, I think maybe that may be the last time that was, but that's insane. But it seems like you've had a few other things going on, you know, that we haven't talked about yet somehow in your professional golf life, that doesn't mean playing professional golf, but as a professional golf course architect,

I think the last time we, you know, we have not had you on since the tree farm even began, got a came into existence, but we've talked to you a lot about the butt club. I want to go back, backing way up, take us through that timeline and how you ended up, you know, moving on from that name, that project in Utah,

what that means for the future for that one and how we end up moving on from that name, that project in Utah, what that means for the future for that one and how we end up with the tree farm. Yeah, so really this was all kind of in that COVID timeline of 2019 or whatever. I've been trying to do TBC for four, five, six years, at least in Utah, trying to build a destination golf club in my home state. Just thought it would be a really cool place for people that love golf and thought we could, you know, bring something to the space. Like I said, try to do it for a while.

And there's just so many kind of like roadblocks and things that are just tougher than people might think, especially like as someone that's, you know, not a millionaire or billionaire or somebody that can just finance the whole thing on their own, you know, there are a lot of things that have to kind of fall in place for it to work and it just seemed like every turn, it was kind of like an uphill battle. So really was still always trying to pursue that. And during COVID, I can like vividly remember I was in my living room sitting on the couch, everything was shut down, you know, no sports going on. The PGA tour was stopped and I was just kind of like, man, I got to find a property to build TBC. So I just started looking all over the place, not just in Utah, because the property is just so expensive

out here. I had had a friend mention to me how cool, Akin South Carolina was, and how there was a bunch of land that looked pretty cool and sandy soils and how they loved golf out there. So I had started looking in that kind of South East United States region around then or a little before. And I had started looking in that kind of South East United States region, you know, around then or a little before, and I had had a couple of properties that looked pretty cool,

but I'd never gone out there, right? Like it was just too busy playing golf, you know, to kind of go do that. And like I said, during COVID, I was sitting on the couch and I was like, we got to find a property. So there was this one that I had looked at a lot and it was for sale. And I convinced like two or three friends to like hop on a plane, you know, mid-pandemic, like talking nobody in the airport type travel. It was pretty crazy.

And went out, flew into Atlanta, drove out to Aiken and looked at this piece of property. And was like, man, this is pretty sweet. Like we should, you know, if we could get this, we could definitely build TVC out here and it'd be really cool. Ended up buying the property with, you know, a small group of buddies. It was kind of a weird position that we were in because it's like, is this TVC, is this a new project and didn't really know and kind of went back and forth on it for a while and after talking to some people, you know,

who I trust and kind of respect their opinions, it was kind of like, I think this has to be a new project. One of the reasons was, I still wanted to do something in Utah. There had been so much support for like the vision of what I was trying to do something in Utah. There had been so much support for the vision of what I was trying to do and the whole idea of the Buck Club had evolved and shifted over the years from being a destination private club to shifting more to being a sweetens cove style

nine-hole public course, or maybe it was 18 holes, but definitely like more in the public space. And I wanted to do that in Utah, and I wanted to still give the people the opportunity that had supported the brand and bought the merch and kind of like bought into this whole idea, you know, still something to kind of like, this is still gonna happen, like I wanna do this. So we eventually, you know, decided that this was a new project in South Carolina, and you know, that's how the tree farm happened. And now we're kind of like, you know,

finished shaping with it and grassing it, and you know, should be kind of done later this year, which is pretty cool. No, we're not getting away that easy. There's a lot of details along the way. We got to talk about it. Yeah, it should be cool. All right, cool, babe.

Yeah, I'm good. I'm just coming up. Really appreciate that. So I want to know, like, detail wise, though, looking at that side in Utah, you had a site, you had a routing, you had, I think that the routing plan is still hung up in the garage in the kill house.

But people had come out to see it and came back raving about how amazing that site was. I think some of the questions a lot people had was, hey, is this the right soil? Is this the right climate? How many months a year can this course be played at? Are those the questions that ended up kind of you know ending that kind of pursuit for that particular site of that project or what were the challenges that you mentioned? Yeah yeah so that that was a lot of it you know when I really started getting into the nuts and bolts of you know

developing a golf course a it was like the people who we were gonna buy the property from seemed very willing to play ball kind of like early on and then eventually like when it got time to like strike the deal and do it, it was like everything completely changed. Whether it was they had seen the attraction for the project and they had seen the support, you know, it was definitely like, you like, the price kept going up. And it was, again, I'm not somebody that could do the whole thing itself. So we were kind of bootstrapping it on a tight budget and that whole sort of thing. So that was kind of like number one where the land was just kind of like at a stalemate

and we couldn't figure out how to do it or get it done. And then when you got into the construction side of it, that was another big obstacle where it was having to bring in a bunch of materials like sandcap in the fairways and it was going to require a lot of moving earth, which I feel like we definitely could have done. But the more I kind of learned about the whole process, it seemed like, man, wouldn't it be better to like not have to do that? Like all of that stuff.

And wouldn't it be cheaper? And wouldn't it be, you know, like everything was just, you know, adding to the man, maybe this isn't right. And then a big one was, you know, the seasonality of Utah, the more I had talked to people, the more I learned about that aspect as well, was like, it's way harder to bring people to your place like out of good weather, right?

So it's like, you're gonna have these good months in like April, May, June, July, August, maybe like September in Utah. But that's when it's good, like everywhere else, right? And so like why is like, why does Sali want to come here when it's like good weather there? Right? It seemed like it's way easier to get somebody like out of Ohio or out of New York when it's shitty and like raining and snowing and get them to like somewhere where it's 60 degrees like South Carolina. So those were all like all of those things kind of played into this huge decision of like,

do we really want to roll the die-sancy if we can do this here right now? And again, that was like pre- anything being done, right? I've never developed a golf course. I've never, you know, done a project of this magnitude at all. And if it failed and didn't get off the ground even, it was like dream shot completely dead in the water. And I felt very, very confident after seeing the South Carolina site, like, okay, this could be a really, really good opportunity. And that was a thing that it was frustrating, you know, from, from my perspective, because like, you can't explain that in 42 characters on Twitter, right? And, and, you know, people are just like, just absolutely killing me for like a couple of years about the whole thing. And it was like, yeah, man, like I get,

I get everything you guys are saying. And if I could sit in a room with that person and explain to them for 20 minutes or 30 minutes, I feel like they would have definitely like understood where I was coming from. But, you know, you don't have that luxury all the time. And I eventually had to learn like, okay, this is never going to like work on this platform to, you know, like get into it with all of these people. And I was very sensitive, you know, like about the whole, about the whole thing,

because it was very close to me, and it was something that I believed in and still believe in and still want to do. But I'm very happy with kind of how it all turned out and definitely feel like it is a springboard with what we're doing at the tree farm to be able to do something very, very cool and unique and awesome in Utah. There's anything I've learned from this job.

It's like, it is amazing how there's a couple issues, couple of things that like the gap between how I see people react online and like the vibe I get from either talking to the person involved in this, that how wide that gap can be as far as like vibe and like how, I don't know how to say it, in terms like intentions and desire and goals and willing to work at it and things like that,

it was, it was all that considering, I still was like internally putting like the chances of that project like happening without, you know, all the things that have to go right, which I'm sure you're still learning and the things that have to go right to get something across the line. The chances of like succeeding there were low, like it's just unlikely, but it was an incredibly

fun thing to support and talk about and wear the merch and be a part of that community. Like absolutely this like PGA tour pro in his 20s is trying to like build. I think you're in your 20s when you started like is trying to build a golf course in Utah like that. People do not do that in the middle of their professional golf career. There might, you know, there might be some learning steps along the way, but is this a fun ride? It absolutely is. And I'm wondering, yeah, I was wondering what you felt like, you know,

from the community, like this incredible community that built up around this. They were all the merchandise you've sold and the, you know, that that community ever diminished to a certain point. Has it strengthened? You know, as time has gone on, where do you stand with that? I definitely felt that as I'm sure like the people that did like turn their back on it, or however you want to put it, like I'm sure they felt like that for me too, right? There are so many supporters out there, but the negativity or the negative comments or the people that were, you know,

just did not think that it was the right thing or however you wanna put it. Like the haters, definitely their voice was the one that would always show up, right? There would be hundreds of people messaging me, like privately, right? They would be like, oh, this is awesome. I still support you.

But then people would see, you know, the really negative remarks on Twitter or something like that, where it's like, like I said, like it was very personal to me. So it was like really upsetting to see some of that stuff, because it was like, man, all I was trying to do was build a really cool place. And these people thought that I was going to build it

by selling hots. Right? It was like, you know, like, hey, man, I think you're missing a couple of digits there, which it's like, man, if I could have sold, you know, 10 million hats and got it started, I would have absolutely done that because that's what I was trying to do was, like I said, bootstrap a project and make something cool for people that love golf. That was literally like the only goal in the entire project was to do that. And, you know, like I said, there was tons of people that were supportive.

There still are, you know, tons and tons of people that are great. And we, I feel like we still have a really nice following. And, you know, people seem to love the merch. And that's, again, kind of like the only reason we started selling merch was because we were making merch for me and my friends and people were like, how do I get some? And it was like, you know, for a while, we were just like giving it away. And then it was like to the point where it was like crap, we can't keep giving it away because like we're in the hole at this point and we're trying, you know, we're trying to, you know, make

ends meet and get by to try and do this cool project. So we started selling it and people thought like, you know, like I can remember people being like, well, you know, where did the money go that, you know, that from my hat that I bought or like my head cover, like I should get like around a golf. And I was like, yeah, man, like it's not like we were selling you this idea and you sent in 50 bucks and like didn't get anything in return, right? And I get like, you know, I totally understood like how people could get to some of those ideas and the narrative behind it.

But at the same time, it was like, we weren't slinging fake two times at this place, right? It was like, you were buying head covers and hats and stuff that I thought was cool. And we weren't slinging fake two times at this place, right? It was like you were buying head covers and hats and stuff that I thought was cool. That's why I was making it. And that's why I continue to make it because people still talk to us and tell us they like it. And I do it because we've done a lot of head covers lately

because that's something that I've always collected and I've always liked to do. And the supply chain issues, that's one thing that's remained accessible for us to keep doing. And it's been fun doing that the last couple of years. It's definitely been a wild ride. And I've tried to say, sorry to so many people, sorry, I let you down on the whole thing, but we're still trying to do it. And I still 100% believe that in the near future, we're definitely gonna get something going. So it's been fun. Some of the best advice I think I've ever received

was making sure you know internally to yourself whose feedback you care about because otherwise you can get drawn into like exactly what you said like 100 people can praise you and like the negative comments will be what you think about when you go to bed. And it's like, well, what the hell am I doing? Like trying to please that person, right? Like let's focus on the people that, you know, are supportive or I can please or have a feasible way of pleasing.

Like that's a much clearer north star through, you know, I don't know, doing anything in the public domain. That's helped me a lot because I know exactly what you're talking about with just feeling like, oh shit, I can't like, like the Twitter pile on, like you can't stop it and you can't explain it.

And the more you explain it, the worse you make it. Cause it's probably actually people that are decently good at debating or finding a hole in one little thing you said. And here it goes just on repeat forever. It's definitely, it's harder than you just described it though, right? Oh, sure. You're just like every little negative comment about it was just like, you know, you try

and explain it a little and exactly like you said, it's like every time you go to explain it, there's another little thing that gets pecked at until you're just like, eh, like, I can't do it. I can't even talk about it because the reality is 99% of those people that are saying anything have like zero clue all it takes to develop a golf course, right? It's like, it's a lot harder than people think and then on top of that people Almost 100% of the time at least before the last couple of years had only seen a finished product, right? It's like they didn't know how long, you know, sand hills was in the making or, you know, some of these even like band and dune projects, like, you know, whatever. And those were like millionaires and billionaires, you know, funding those things,

not some like 20 year old kid who had never done it before. I think Kaiser bought like first went to bandin in 89 and played open for play in 99. Is that right? Something like that? Yeah, you know, so it was like I had always tried and was and was trying and still try to give people kind of like a look into what it takes and what was going on. And again, like the whole goal was to just bring something cool to the space. And hopefully people could be around for the ride and kind of enjoy it. And unfortunately, like social media, for how good it is and for like it's such a cool tool and a unique platform to do that stuff.

It's also a very powerful platform to do other things kind of in a negative way and kind of get into that whole tail spin of that side of it. 100 million percent. It's like yet, how both of us are talking here is because of social media, we would have not, you know, I would have this job and, you know, it, and yet,

at the same time, it can really bring you down at times. But, so. But the good side of it, you know, to end that whole thing, it's been like an amazing thing. And still, like so many of the people that are involved with TVC or the tree farm or both, like, I met via social media, right? Like, it's amazing. Like, that's like a very cool thing. Yeah, no, it's, uh, it's funny. It's like, like I'd say, well, how we've kind of lost touch,

I haven't, you know, it, this, this whole, like tree farm thing seems so, um, foreign to me. Like, it seems like so, you know, I see the pictures and all this and it's just like it's unbelievable. Like I can't believe, you know, I shouldn't say I can't believe that you're capable of this. That's not what I mean, but I'm like, holy shit, this dude's about to build like something that seems to be from T.C. has been up there.

He came back absolutely raving about it and from the pictures I've seen, a golf course that's unique, unique to the landscape. The people that you've got involved working on it, you know, it seems like you learned enough in the project that didn't work out without having to, you know, learn it the hardest way, like building it actually, then learning. You learned a time that you're able to implement in almost round two without even actually having to go

through round one, it seems to be working out great. Is that a fair assessment? Yeah, definitely. I think, from those years of trying to make sure that we would get it so right in Utah, and not being able to do it, and then luckily having a really good team of people that have done it before,

and have been around a lot of successful projects. And in that whole world of golf and golf development, you know, has been able to at least get this thing on the right track and, you know, definitely looking forward to it's the pictures don't do it justice. You got to come see it. That's insane because the pictures look incredible. But so take us, you find this land, you get a tip, you find this land. What's the order of operations? How do you buy it? Who's funding this? Are you selling memberships before? Just through hats that you're buying the land?

How does it all work? What's the order of operations? Yeah, so find the property on the internet, which is when people ask me about, and I've come out and see it, or trying to get involved, when people, when people like ask me about, you know, they come out and see it or, you know, or trying to get involved, like whatever, it's like, yeah, so how'd you find the property in there? I think they're always looking for this, this crazy story about how some old man on the corner told me about it. I literally found it on the internet don't know, I don't know the exact website, but called the people up, asked if we could come see it, got it, got it arranged to go look at it, and

again, this is from somebody that has never, ever built a golf course. I had gone and scouted properties before and looked at places. But this was very, very different. All the sites that we looked at in Utah, like very open, not a lot of trees. You could see everything. And this place was, you know, covered in pines. Like, you know, there was areas where you could see, you know, a couple hundred yards and you could see the topography when you were walking around.

And you could definitely tell that it was cool. But it's not like you could just see 500 acres, right? So just went out there, like I said, with a couple of buddies. And definitely, I've played a lot of cool places. I feel like I've been fortunate enough to see a lot of really good golf courses And when I was walking around it was very much like wow, you know You could put a hole like this here, and you know, you could do something like this over here So it was like adding up to where it was like, okay, I think we could build like a really cool place out here. So, you know, just rounded up a small group of friends, you know, to each, you know, pitch in a little money.

And I kind of put in, you know, a bit of bit myself, obviously, and ended up buying it on my birthday in 2020. So it was a pretty cool birthday present. I was at the TPC Boston like playoff event and there was like this big cluster fuck with the wire like being sent out and like the Wells Fargo people thought like thought we were like running like a drug operation or something like like because the account was named the tree farm and I think they thought we were like, they flagged the account, because they thought we were like, had this like illegal weed operation go, like it was literally crazy.

And I had to drive, like this is Wednesday of the playoff event, and there's no Wells Fargo's in Boston, and I had to drive to New Haven, Connecticut, to go do this wire. And it, like, they wouldn't do it. It was like the weirdest thing ever. And we had to, like, luckily there were some people in Charlotte that got us, like, in contact with some,

like, pretty high ups in the Wells Fargo bank. And we're able to, like, pull it off, but it was to the point where, if we didn't have, like, the money in, the day that it was supposed to be in, like, they it was to the point where if we didn't have like the money in the day that it was supposed to be in, like they could have taken the earnest money and just like walked away from the deal because there were like other people looking to buy the property. So it was it was a craziest thing, but it was a really cool birthday present and you know glad glad it worked out. And for people that aren't familiar, you've spent you know a big part of your

adult life traveling the world visiting other golf courses, learning about architecture, sketching in a book that I remember seeing in 2017 that was just hundreds of pages of golf holes and greens and shapes and all these things. Your knowledge on this is extensive. You know, you know, great golf, you know, great golf holes you've seen a. You know, how does that translate to trying to put that together in the actual dirt or on a piece of paper and kind of talk us through how you end up, you know, where you planning to, you know, design it all from scratch. How do you end up working with Tom Doke on the routing? And, you know, I wonder who to get design credit for this thing as well. Yeah, so then now we enter like chapter two of like, you know,

just the crazy story of how it all happened. So like short back story, we get the property, we close on the property, we hadn't body yet, we close on the property, and I get this call like the like the next day, because I had posted something about how we had closed on this property. And it's this guy named Jeff Warren who's the general manager, you know, kind of runs the bridge up in the Hamptons, the bridge golf club or whatever. And I've never met Jeff. And he says, you know, the property that you got is it the property

that's east of the Holly pond on this, this, and this, like some road. And I'm like, I have no idea, but here's my phone number. Give me a call like tomorrow. And so sure enough, he called the next morning. He was like down in Australia that it, maybe it like barn boogal or something like that, playing in this, this Renaissance cup with Tom Doak and all these people. And he was like, I've been looking at that property for like the past like, handfully years, you know, I was going to build a

golf course on it with Brian Schneider and Tom Doke or something like that. At that moment, it was like, holy cow, like, maybe this is a good property. Like if somebody else was trying to build a golf course out here, so, you know, that was a pretty crazy part of the story. So fast forward, you know we closed the property and this was like a really awkward situation. Like a really weird detail that was unfortunate and it was you know too that it happened this way. So obviously Robin Tad from King Collins were like you know the people that were going to do the project in Utah. King Collins were like, you know, the people that we're going to do the project in Utah. So when we buy this property out in South Carolina, it was kind of this situation where it's like, are they going to, you know, are they going to be the ones that are doing it?

I was really, I felt like really good friends with both of those guys, like, especially like me and Rob talked like every day about like the golf holes in Utah and what we were gonna do and how cool it was gonna be. And so it got to this point with the South Carolina property where we had to really figure out like if they were the perfect fit for that property. Rob and Todd had built sweetens and they were kind of in the middle of building Landman.

And you know, so they didn't have like a huge track record of building aman. And so they didn't have a huge track record of building a lot of golf courses. And some of the people that were involved in the project were kind of like, we need to at least explore this. So I had to make probably one of the worst calls of my life to those guys of like, hey, we're going to go a different direction with this project or at least explore some other options. And at that time, we had nobody, you know, it wasn't like we had some deal

lined up with anybody behind their back. It was just, we had to go explore and figure out what we were gonna do because everyone, you know, basically minus me thought that they probably weren't the right people for that specific job. So then fast forward, a little, you know, a hand maybe like a month or two after that, and I was on my way down to play golf at Ohoopi, and Will Smith had set it up where Kai Golby was going to pick me up from the Atlanta airport because he was going down to play with us. Kai picked me up from the airport.

I had met him one time up at Oakland Hills. I went out there with Andy Johnson and David Margolis during the quick and loans or the rocket mortgage up in Detroit to go check out what they were doing on the restoration of at Oakland Hills with Gilhance, had just briefly talked and he is kind of from that area and had kind of heard about the project and was making small talk and good luck, hopefully everything goes good.

So that was the only time I had ever met Kai. So he picks me up from the airport and we have this like two or three hour drive down to a hoopie and I'm in the middle of this whole thing. So I'm just trying to pick his brain because he's been around so many great projects and he's worked for two of the best to ever do it between Gil and Tom. And I could immediately tell that this guy just got it.

He had worked on so many of the great golf courses, had been to every golf course you could ever imagine, had seen all the classics, all the new stuff. He kind of had all the right things to say, and he was so gracious with kind of spending those two hours, just basically answering my questions of like, how would you do this? And like what's really important?

And some of his stuff was like, you just got to create a cool, you know, environment and make sure people, you know, are able to have fun and enjoy in the work. And, you know, so we got, we got to Hoopy. And I just remember like calling like, corner, like, one of my friends and just being like, dude, I wonder if this guy would like, would help out.

Like, he's so awesome. And I'll never forget him saying something like, why haven't you like done your own thing? And he was just like, honestly, it's so cool working for guys like Tom and Gil, like they get really cool projects. And it's really fun, like building great golf courses. And I don't really care about any of the accolades and any of my name being on it. I just want to be involved in building really great stuff. And I was like, that's awesome. He totally gets it.

And that would be so cool if he would help out. So throughout the rest of that trip, I kind of talked to him a little bit. And he was like, I'll try it up there and come check it out with you. And later that week, we went and checked it out and kind of over drinks at the end of that trip. He was kind of like, look, whatever help you need, I'd be happy to help find some guys

and help you out and it seems like a really cool project and I'd love to be involved. So that's how that started. And at that time, I was kind of doing the routing, you know, because I didn't have really anybody else to do it. And I had had a routing kind of on paper that was, I felt like it was pretty good. And, you know, I had taken Kai through the routing and he was kind of like, yes, it's like, yeah, this could work, like, you know, but you could tell like he was like, yeah, this kid has no clue what he's doing. Like, we're definitely going to have to tweak this thing up.

So while we were working on the routing and Kai was kind of given his two cents, he was kind of like, I think you should call Tom like he loves this stuff. And, you know, like he, he would surely like, like to help, you know, he's always interested and he's kind of winding down his career, not traveling quite as much. And this might be like a cool opportunity for him to help out, at least on the routing side of it, because there's nobody better on Earth at routing your golf course than Tom Dope. And I'd never met Tom and I had kind of had my thoughts on some of his work and everything like that.

And he had also chimed in on golf club at list about what I was trying to do with TBC and everything like that. So it wasn't like this was a perfect situation, right? It wasn't like it was just some random person calling this guy. It was somebody that he was kind of like, yeah, this kid doesn't know what he's doing. You know, he's definitely gonna need help. So I was kind of like nervous, you know, giving him a call, but I ended up calling him one day and just, you know, kind of laying it out there. Like would this be something that you'd be interested in helping out with the routing? And he was like, yeah, definitely. I think, you know, I've been to the property and like from those Jeff Warren days back in the day.

And, you know, I think it's a pretty neat piece of property and has a lot of potential. And it would be something that would be interested in and kind of asked him, you know, what capacity he would want to be involved. And he was kind of threw it back to me. Like, there's basically three options. It was like, I can look at your routing

and kind of, you know, break it down and tell you what I think and maybe guide you to, you know, some spots and help kind of buff it out and make it better. Or I could kind of like give you 10 or 15 holes on the property that I think are really good golf holes and you can kind of piece it together after that, or I could like do the whole thing.

And I was like put it back on him, like which, you know, which would you want to do? Like how would you want to be involved? And he was like, well, routing golf courses is like one of my favorite things in the entire world. Like I would love to just do the whole thing. So I was like, done, like no brainer. Like if you can get, you know, the Michael Jordan of golf course routers to do that, it's like, obviously you're going to, you know, take that, take that one. And look, it was kind of the same thing like, you know, the underlying story here is

all I ever wanted was to build like the best place, right? I didn't care if I was doing the routing, if I was designing holes, I just wanted the best like final product. So obviously Tom like was the answer there. It was like never a question. So, you know, work with him for a couple of months on, you know, letting him, you know, do the whole thing and we kind of went back and forth and I'll never forget he was kind of like sending me the initial routing like in snippets like over the holiday, like Christmas break one time. And it was so cool because he would send me like little triangles of like, you know, 5, 6, 7 or like, here's, you know, 1, 2, 3 and it was so cool to try and like, piece together where I thought he was going to go and occasionally I would get it right and

occasionally I would just be so far off. So it was so cool to like see the process and kind of pick his brain. Like, why did he want to go there? And, you know, what was the decision making, you know, for going this way? And I felt like I could always find really cool holes. That was never my problem. But I would use good holes and get to the point where it was like I would get stuck or have to make sacrifices and, you sacrifices and just kind of connect a few holes that weren't that great to get back to good stuff. And he was able to obviously seamlessly connect 18 golf holes that were really, really good.

So that was a really just crazy process to be involved in and very thankful that he was willing to come help out and be involved. Because if I based on what I know from you, it feels like that's the perfect thing to help with. Like all these things that you don't know yet on based on experience yet, a lot of the stuff you do know about

what makes for fun golf shots, what makes for fun slopes, kickers, bunker shapes, templates, things like that, are all things that you can do internally with a design that you can contribute on that have nothing really to do necessarily with the routing once the whole directions are laid out. Is that kind of a fair assessment of the balance of what your skills are versus what his skills are?

Yeah, definitely on on paper for sure. You know, the routing is like the first thing, and it's a big thing, and it's something you can't really fix, right? Especially on a property that you're in there, you know, on the Tiger Cat, like taking down 100 foot pine trees, right? It's like, you can't go in and, you know, make some edits that's like, oh, never mind,

we're gonna go that way instead of this way. So it was very important to get it right because it's kind of the first thing out of the blocks that is very, very important. And all the things that I had sketched and thought I knew and the cool holes and the inspiration and trying to do this and trying to do that, were basically like thrown out the window on day one,

like when they actually started building golf. Like I remember like sketching something out for Kai. Like you know, like you would see like Jack Nicholas, like with a pen and paper and like drawing a green with like the little like slope dashes and stuff like that. I remember drawing something like that for Kai and he was like, yeah dude, like we don't do that. Like we don't work like we don't work like that.

And I remember talking to Kai, like he was working on 13 and I was like, well what if we did this on one and he was like, yeah man, like we'll figure that out when we get there, but like let's just work on 13. You know, so there were so many things that, you know, you think you know or you think you can contribute, that they just do so much different. Even on the routing too,

it's like I would use cool land forms and work the topography I felt like in a good way, but then it was always like, well what are we gonna do for the green? And Tom, I would say, works like very much the opposite way, where it's like, let's find 18, like, let's find the green sites that are really, really cool and natural and, you know, are just kind of sitting there and kind of worked your way the other way. So it was a lot to kind of like take in to basically think like everything you thought you knew

was like completely not really relevant. But I've had my share of pitching in and having some cool ideas, thankfully with the routing and some halls. So it's been fun. What sticks out to you whole wise or feature wise or anything that you know, you know, I'm curious also, I don't know if it's the same question if there's any design concepts or holes

in particular that were maybe in the original butt club plans that are kind of being recreated on different land in South Carolina, the tree farm or just anything in particular new that you guys have come up with that you're particularly excited about. I'm thinking, I'm comparing this to the Mega Redan that we have a picture of from the old buck club. Yeah, so I mean, the Mega Redan was pretty ridiculous. And I think if we were ever able to build that, it would have been just really cool. Funny enough, when Tom sent the routing,

like the final one and was doing kind of the whole notes, he was basically like this like this running joke. He you know wrote me this thing was like 15, you know, whole 15 sets up perfectly for Dan if you're into that sort of thing, which he was like that's like serious like I don't I don't think it was a joke, you know, and it was like it's just so funny because it's like yeah like I am into that sort of thing. You know, so I always I always like use that line. But so yeah, there's like, you know, like a punchball on 16 and a redan on 15 and Kai definitely didn't want to get like two template driven and it was just funny that the redan and the

punchball kind of just worked out like back to back on 15 16. But there's like, you know, little things like that kind of, you know, thrown in and all throughout the course. There are similarities just in certain aspects and that whole sort of thing, but it's a completely different property, right? And it was like, like I was saying, like they very much fit the golf to the land that you're on instead of like trying to force something into that to build it. So that that was kind of an adjustment for me for sure. But what sticks out on the property to me and what's intriguing is obviously Tom used the land like really good where the scale out there

and the topography and the land forms, you know, there's these big ridges and valleys. And he just used it in a really dramatic way, but not like a taxing way where you're kind of going up and down hills, you still get the visual, you know, cues of like these big dramatic features, but not necessarily like playing up and over them. All day, you're kind of traversing them.

So the routing is really cool. It's big and like bold in a good way, but also has like a very, very good, like a lot of connectivity. A lot of holes kind of connect and you see a lot of golf and you see a lot of different holes while you're on holes, which was very important to me because I think it's such a social place and I wanted it to be a social club.

And you know, it's fun seeing people like hit cool shots and it's also fun seeing people like screw up really bad when they're your friends. You know, so that's a really cool thing that, you know that if you've been out there, you've seen some of the pictures. There's some really cool vistas and really cool long views that I think once they're done will be pretty awesome. Well, I'm excited to see it. If I'm so-and-so listening to this, it says, how do I end up playing the tree farm? if I'm, you know, so and so listening to this,

it says, how do I end up playing the tree farm? Do I have to be a member to play there? What's the, what's the membership structure look like? And is there going to be any availability for the public to play it? Yeah, so we, you know, we just kind of crazy enough like finished the membership, which is wild, kind of like before we even opened. It's been had a lot of support behind it and it's been cool and you know it's when you bring people

out there you can really see it right now. So it's been it's been kind of a really fun process the last year or so kind of meeting a bunch of people that that really believe in the project and want it to be involved in it. That's kind of where we're out with the membership. But, you know, the plan is to kind of open it up, I think, a bit during Masters Week in that kind of 10-day period around the Masters. And then, you know, some other times throughout the year. And I felt like it was, it would be really cool to have these times throughout the season and throughout each year where you have these lottery type things, kind of like the old course or whatever and give

people the ability to come play it and experience the place and get to see it. So, you know, it is like a members club, but at the same time, I do think there will be ways to play it, whether it's kind of the the sand hills slash terror eating model where you write the letter, you know, that whole sort of thing. I mean, we're building it for people to see it, right? Like, you know, we don't want it to be this place that's completely closed off yet we do want to make sure that, you people that have paid a pretty penny to be involved in the place and want to make sure that they kind of have the first look at it and the ability to come when they want.

But definitely want to give people the ability to come see it in the right way. The last one, we'll get you out of here. Very important question. Is the drone still up in that tree? Oh, you heard about that. Oh, we did hear about it. We had to drag it out of TC, but apparently, was it was the goal to keep that news from me?

I think it was definitely like, let me break the news to solid. Or like, you know, let me let me break the news to everybody. No, no one knows yet. That was, that was a tough scene. I saw him kind of, you know, going to get getting a little loose with the flight pattern there and crashed it left to green.

And we were looking for it forever. And yes, it still is in the tree. We'll try and get it down one day and it can be a nice trophy for the NLU boys when they come play a match up here, but I think it's still in the tree for now. Does he get the tree named after him? I mean, yeah, if he wants that, yeah, that'd be great. I think we can get a get a plaque in there or something like that. It was we spent like 30 minutes looking for the thing.

And finally, I was like, the camera was pointing down. And I was like, let's just go stand under the trees and we'll find it, you know, it has to be somewhere around here. So finally we kind of used our heads and eventually found it. But it was hard because it was like, hey, it was sunny and be the trees are like really tall, right? So you're like, you're kind of like hurting your neck because you're looking like straight up. And it was the way it got stuck in that tree. I think I have a picture of it. It was like pretty insane. Like I don't know how it has not fallen down

because there's like some pretty big wind storms, you know, rolling through that area and thunderstorms and everything like that. But yeah, she's still stuck up there. Poor T.C. May rest in peace. So he said that he said that if it crack, like if it falls down and breaks, you'd probably be able to like fix it instead of having to, you know, buy a new one. Or is that ship sailed? I want it rains on it. Probably they're like, well, is this thing stuck up there for like two months? Yeah, probably not

So we'll see we'll get you tried DJ has pretty good with the drones But well let's get out of here, man. This was great catching up. I am sorry I don't we don't chat as much as we we used to that doesn't make me any less excited for all you've got going on and I've still definitely fallen it from from afar so congrats on everything and can't wait to see the finish product and thanks for spending some time with us. Yeah, of course, thanks for having me on. We'll get out and play some golf, Sam. Love it, let's do it.

Cheers. All right, see you later. Give it a big club. Be the right club today. Yes! Yeah! That's better than most. How about in? That is better than most. How about in?

That is better than most. Better than most.