No Laying Up - Golf Podcast - NLU Podcast, Episode 575: Justin Thomas

Episode Date: June 29, 2022

Justin Thomas returns to the pod for a full debrief on his win at Southern Hills, the evolution of his shot-making on course and the growth of his relationship with Bones. We also get the latest from JT on his views on the LIV tour, changes to the PGA Tour policies and schedule, and what lies ahead.   Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

I'm going to be the right club today. Yes. That is better than most. That is better than most. Better than most. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to the No Laying Up podcast, Sally here, bringing in Justin Thomas here shortly to talk through all the things going on in the world of golf, mostly up front talking about his win at Southern Hills, but of course every other development in professional golf. We talk about pretty much everything I unleashed all the questions I have,

and he gave as thoughtful of answers as he possibly could. So we greatly appreciate JT's time and willingness to speak on these topics. We wanna give a shout out to our friends at Cash App. It is the easiest way to send, spend, and save your money. You can send or request money from friends and family. When they owe you for dinner,

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So get signed up now. We are going to be giving away a lot more cash on some of our live shows. Throughout the rest of the year, they've been a great support of our live shows as well. And they've been a great partner to work with. Also want to give a shout to our friends at BMW. If you want to tee it up with a pro, then enter now for your chance to team up with Rory McElroy at the 2022 BMW championship Gardener, he jick pro, and one lucky winner is going to get to play alongside Rory at the pro

and in Wilmington, Delaware on August 17th to get airfare accommodations and more. Enter the play with Rory sweepsakes by July 14th in the free golf now app. No purchase necessary void where prohibited for official rules visit the golf now app. Without any further delay and without any interruptions going forward, here is our interview with Justin Thomas. So does life feel any different as a two time major champion? A little bit.

I will say sitting where I am right now, it's nice looking on my mantel and seeing another major trophy up there versus one because it was. It was getting lonely up there for a while. I don't know, man. It's the season goes by and keeps going so fast that you don't have much time to think about it, but. Trying to enjoy while I can at the same time. Well, it's great. Usually it are our year in podcast that we normally do, which we've moved up for this episode. We kind of revisit and say like, man, the major championship record, it's not there.

Where is it? What's going on? And, you know, it's something you've always, you've reflected on, but now does it feel, I guess, do you feel validated in any way? I'm kind of wondering where you kind of view your major championship record now that you have the second win. I mean, it's different.

And I think I said that in my, even my presser afterwards at the PGA, it's just, it was a lot harder to win the second one than I thought. I thought it was gonna be harder to win the first one than the second one. Honestly, as the years went by, it just kinda went by is just like,

I, and then there's no offense to everybody that's won a major, but it's just, I kept thinking I'm like, anybody can win one major, you know? It's like, but once you start winning multiple and piling them up and then ending up whatever you end up at, like that's kind of when you get thrown in the history books, the record books and just,

in making a little bit more of a name for yourself. First is just a guy that just won one major kind of thing. So just putting too much pressure on myself is what I did, I think more than anything, but it's nice to hopefully the third will be easier in the second and so on. Well, take me to Saturday. You're mood walking off that golf course

after shooting 74 on that day. Where is your mindset as you're heading to the range and kind of take me to everything that plays out between bones and that range session, the mood you're in when you went home. I mean, I was pissed off. There's no other way to say it. I mean, I just was, I mean, to be perfectly honest,

and I'm not to call them out by any means, but what's the guy that wrote the article about Roy and I? KVG, yeah. That's honestly, like pretty, pretty similar to how I felt. I mean, it just was like another major by another great opportunity and another one that it looks like, you know, I have a pretty good chance how I felt. I mean, it just was like another major by another great opportunity and another one that it looks like, you know, I have a pretty good chance to not win. And just

sometime in my game felt fine, it was like it was a really tough day and like I just, you know, I felt like I played a lot better than 4 over. I mean, 4-ever's never a good score, but being out there in enough major championships, you know that and a lot of us know that like you can sometimes you can still play pretty well and shoot over park, but the timing of it was just terrible and I just need to blow some steam off more and anything it just was it wasn't as much of like all right I need to go like tweak some things I need to go get this and a better spot it just was like I need to not lead the golf course and this frame of mind. Like, I'm just, I really need to make sure that this feeling and this anger and this emotion that I have, and I was like, I don't care if I go to the driver and I hit 20 drivers as hard as I possibly can, like, whatever it's going to take for me to get this anger out of me, I need to do, and it just was, I'm more, I probably, we talked more than I hit, I just hit a couple balls, and I just was just like, like, why, why am I doing this? Why does this keep happening?

And, you know, that's when bones kind of had his realization moment and just talked to me a little bit and same with my dad and it, and it was very similar. It was different, but somewhere to the PGA in 17 after Saturday, I went to the range just to hit a couple balls and it just was kind of like a decompressed kind of moment. And in the end, I think it is honestly a major reason why I won. I'm going to throw this at you and I just want to you get your full reaction to any of it. This is definitely not a shot at Jimmy in any way, but it seems like the dynamic of your relationship with bones as it was to Jimmy seems different that it almost seems like that bones is there as a I don't want to say an auditor or an adult in the room, but it kind of seems like

you are deferring a little bit more to him in that relationship or almost like guy a goathe he quizzes you to go through exactly You know what you need to go through before a shot maybe even telling yourself that more than you're telling him. And I don't really know if there's a question related to that or if there is something, it can get a sense of like, you know, when it comes down to these important moments, his way of getting through, getting you through something seems to have an effect on you.

It's just different. I mean, there's, I've joked with him and with Tiger about like with Kav, I mean, obviously, he's one him and with Tiger about like with Kava. I mean, obviously he's one of the best caddies in the world and like he's unbelievable at what he does, but like I know for a fact that him and I would not work together. Like it's just it's one of those things like his personality and his demeanor and how he goes about things versus me. Like sometimes I just kind of need a bitch a little bit and let some stuff out.

And if sometimes the caddy and like I've said that to phones before, I'm like, look dude, like I'm let some stuff out. And if sometimes the caddy, and like I've said that to bones before, I'm like, look dude, like I'm gonna say something. And I said to Jimmy, I'm like, I'm gonna say some things to you that may be kind of passive aggressive, maybe direct at toward you. I'm like, but just know, it's likely not personal. It's just me needing to get it out and like don't take anything the wrong way.

And like if you wanna talk about something after that's fine, but I was like, it's just weird, but sometimes that's what I need to do. And I just know for a fact that if I did that with someone like Joe LeCava, he might hit me upside the face. So it's just, it's one of those things where every caddy is so different in their unique in that aspect. And you know, the thing that's been good with bones is because we're, I mean, we're still in the beginning process. I mean, we're not even a year in.

Is that we're still trying to, you know, even after every couple of weeks, we're like, what could I do different, what could you do different. I mean, like I just told him, it literally at the US open, I'm like, bones, this is going to putter out when I got a wedge in my hand before I hit it. I'm like it gets my head and it freaks me out and he's like, I get it. I really understand. So, you know, it's little things like that. Like we're just kind of continue to learn each other a little bit. I mean, it's very different. I'm sure bones is able to have a little bit more conversation with his player now than in past in terms of talking him out of things or maybe or getting him in situations, but at the same time it it it ends up being being good for me as well. That makes total sense to me something as small as that. I'm the exact same way. It's weird. Yeah. I mean like my dad, my dad, when he would caddy for me, like he always likes like mints or like candy and he would kind of

smack him like when he had them. And I'm like, Dad, you're gonna need to not have can't like why you're with me. Cause that's something that drives me nuts. And it's just weird, man. And like, but instead of in the beginning, he's like, there's nothing that you're gonna say that's going, I'm gonna think is rude.

He's like, as long as you're happy and we're moving, like that, that's all that matters. So it feels pretty childish and stupid when you ask for some things, but it is what it is. Well, too, you guys are in this early phase, like you said. And there's a difference in, there's a, I guess there's accumulation of knowledge

that he doesn't probably have yet of like knowing, hey, when you get in competition, like your hold off, cut six iron against the right to left wind, goes this far versus what it does when you're playing the blah, blah, blah tournament. And when you're talking about the margins, I mean, you want to play off.

Like any margin for error, you would not have been there. And that's the stuff that fascinates me that people, you know, it's not necessarily a caddy coming in and telling you the right read as it is, getting you in the right mindset, understanding all the different steps of the decision that it just fascinates me. Yeah, it is.

And a lot of it too is trial and error. I mean, you unfortunately learned from some stuff from some errors. And I think that we've, I feel like there might have been a time at the PGA on Saturday, actually was a perfect example of something that almost cost me the golf tournament on 13 on 13. I hit a good drive up the right and it was in the fairway, but it was up against like the collar and

it was just one of those things where you know, I'm a couple over par. Do I do the same thing if I'm you know a couple under par and I'm just like, my like bones, I know I can hit this shot. Like I know it's I just because of where I'm coming in, I have to draw it. But like, once it happens and you go back and look at it, it's just one of those things. Like, what was I doing? And, and is a caddy year in a hard spot because you know that the player needs to do with their most comfortable in doing, but at the same time, you got to be smart. And looking back on it, you know, if I chip that thing down the fairway, I'm going to make five at the absolute worst, probably going to make four.

But again, five of the worst versus I hit a terrible shot. And then I had to get up an amperebogie and like that in reality could have cost, cost me the tournament, cost us a tournament. So that was like another thing we kind of talked about on Saturdays. It just was like, dude, like bones like don't let me force the issue on stuff like that. You know, it's, it's Saturday. I was a couple back. I mean, it's just not necessary. And that's kind of the same thing I was talking about is like a learning process for both of us.

Did Southern Hills and that whole experience teach you anything about major championship golf in general that maybe you've hadn't, you know, had in your experience to this point? I don't think it taught me anything. It reminded me of some things, if you will. It was some things that I feel like I had gotten away from and didn't think about as much that I maybe did in the past a little bit more when I was winning more frequently. And it's just easy to start pushing the envelope

and pressing a little bit when you want to win so bad and feel like you can, versus when you're on a year like Scotty is this year, like I did in 17 and Jordan did a little bit. It's just like when it's happening, it seems so easy. And you sometimes forget about what you're thinking and how you're going about it, kind of thing. I would be remiss if I didn't point out. Yeah. You did, you know, obviously you're in the playoff after, but you were on the bad side of a three shot draw, which I know you liked to keep track of very, very closely.

I don't like to because I've preferred to not be on it, but yeah, I'm due for a nice one at the open this year. I'm feeling it. You mentioned it. I just had to get this in that our friend, Ken Ben Volkman, wrote that article on Saturday night about you and Rory missing their chances. And he, it turns out, so he asked you after you win. He did.

He, he asks you the question about whether or not you saw that article and it seemed like you didn't know that if he was the one that had fallen asks you the question about whether or not you saw that article and it's like, you didn't know that he was the one that had followed up with the question about asking it. Well, I didn't know that the article existed. Like I've gotten a lot better of major weeks. I should do it in general of just getting rid of my phone. Like I urge social media, I don't read anything. I don't look at Instagram and I just,

it just there's no need for it because then you end up reading or seeing things and just it's just more of a distraction. So I didn't see it. But Sunday night, naturally I wanted to look at stuff and see what was going on and I saw that. And then I saw, and maybe it was you or someone like put something on Twitter and I was like,

oh my God, I was like, that was the guy. I'm like, if I didn't know that, I could have handled that so much better, but it almost made it better that I didn't know what he was talking about. I'm like, I found out I know that. I could have handled that so much better, but it almost made it better that I didn't know what he was talking about. But I appreciate him owning up to it because there's a lot of people that would not have done that.

And honestly, it, like you said, it felt that way on Saturday night. It felt like, and it felt like, though, I mean, we kind of called this on the Friday night show was like, dude, I don't, he played incredible to be in the spot through two rounds, but has he expended too much energy getting through that other side of the draw?

Did you feel that at all on Saturday? It was, and it's so weird and it's also so childish to say, but like I can't, I was so pissed off Friday afternoon watching golf because I knew, and again, I know how dumb it sounds, but like I knew how good I played and I knew that it was one of the best rounds that I played in a really long time. I mean, I'm throwing the players round out because that was, it was golf, but it almost wasn't golf at the same time with Alba's art was, but it just was like tee to green and like control of my emotions, control of my game. And I just, I felt like it was one of the best rounds, you know, top five, top

ten round I've ever played. And I'm just out here like it was one of the best rounds, you know, top five, top 10 round I've ever played. And I'm just out here watching these guys like not really feel like they're playing that great. And they're going out shooting three, four, five, under. And I'm just like, this is bullshit. I'm like, like it really, really bothered me and it shouldn't have. So maybe that let out more energy than it needed to. But yeah, it definitely was, was a grueling couple of days for only being halfway through the tournament kind of thing. I can hear you lobbying for the good side of the draw at the old course. I could I could I could hear it in your voice. Please RNA. Please take a look at that forecast. You know what all evens out over a career hopefully.

What can you say about Will's out tors is performance in major championships. You. For someone that hasn't won on tour yet, but consistently flexes so hard in majors. As a fellow pro, I'm wondering if you could kind of help explain that, because we're trying to break it down on a week to week basis, and it's difficult. It's crazy. I mean, I have not, I haven't played with them other than obviously to play off, but like I remember,

because I've played so many tournaments with Brooks, and I played with him in majors, and I remember like the first time I played with him in a major, I mean, Kiwa, I think it was, and I mean, he had played terrible, I feel like you've not played well during the season. And then all of a sudden, like we get paired with him, and I'm watching him just plot his way around this golf course. And I'm like, this is, I mean, I remember telling him, I was like, dude, that was so impressive. I'm like, you've had nothing, you're hurt. And I'm like, and you are picking this place apart. Like you're the number one player in the world

or like you're like you're playing some of your best golf. And it just, there is something to it and will clearly has that to where he's able to elevate his game when it comes to majors. I mean, he's playing well everywhere, but what he's done in the majors is obscene. I mean, obviously I wouldn't trade it for what I've done in majors, but I mean, I'm jealous.

He's been in contention a lot more than I have and had a lot of really good finishes, but those close calls are definitely gonna benefit him in the long run. Yeah, it's like the, we were, we were talking with Scott Vampel about the leader, the phrase leaderboard gravity. And just like watching, you know, kind of how it's evolved over the years, Louis Eustace and Brooks,

like you mentioned, were just those dudes that, like just no matter what, they just rose up the leaderboard that, you know, the harder it got. And I think it's a special skill, if you will, to play your best golf when you are trying to play your best golf, when you are trying to peak. It's, sure. And I don't understand if you will, to play your best golf when you are trying to play your best golf, when you are trying to peak. It's, and I don't understand, I, you know, I'm always trying to figure out that balance

of like, you know, if you care extra about it, does that mean you're gonna play better, or does that maybe mean you're gonna play worse? I'm wondering if you have any perspective on any of that. I think it's just different for everybody, but for me personally, I know that I would definitely say the better that I try to play, the worse that I play, the worse that I perform. Southern Hills is a great example. I mean, I was sick as a dog on Tuesday and Wednesday.

I mean, I didn't even end up playing the nine whole practice round that I wanted to. I mean, my practice was very, very, I was extremely weak. I just, I was like, it was like a sinus infection in coming. It was, it was awful. And I was so upset because I loved the golf course and I was playing well and I was so excited and I just kind of went into it like, all right, well, I just got to go make the most of this and then it's kind of how I felt like I used to be a little bit more to where I just would, and this, I didn't necessarily go play to win the golf tournament, which is what you're trying to do, but more so, just play and then find yourself in contention in the golf tournament. And then from there, I'm comfortable and able to play. Versus, I mean, Boston's a great example. I played well in Canada. You know, I thought it was a cool golf course.

I thought you had the opportunity. I mean, it fit my game pretty well. I thought it was a ball striker's golf course, and, you know, I just didn't play very well. It just one of those things, man. And I mean, I've run into it at Augusta sometimes as well, but everybody's different. And I think that's the big thing is Brooks has it.

Or I don't know, I guess you could definitely stay has it and Will has it, too, to where they know what works for them. And I'd keep doing it far them. I don't know the best way to ask this question, but it or, you know, the phrasing is going to feel a little bit off. I'm sure, but I feel like you are from the, let's just go back to 2017 to today. You have evolved from let's just call it being a track man golfer to having a, a very deep array of shots.

Again, that might not be the right way to phrase it, but it seems like you have more emphasis on, you know, you want to hit a very deep array of shots. Again, that might not be the right way to phrase it, but it seems like you have more emphasis on, you wanna hit a change up six iron, you wanna do this, you wanna shape it this way, you wanna do that, and it seems like you're way more comfortable going to that under pressure now than maybe you once were, is that fair to say? It definitely is, and I think it's one of those things

where it's good to have, but I also don't need to force the issue. I've run into that a couple of times, and bones and I've talked about that, where it's, I'm like, just because I can hit the shot, doesn't mean I need to hit the shot. And it's just, I can't have had a couple of those holes in particular where I would just stand up on T's and like, it just, like that nine pole,

that eight pole, the par three, the green just sat like this. And like I got on that team, like this is just begging you to aim to stink. 30 yards right of the green and just hook it into this back pan. I mean, you've got a bowl on the left, a bowl on the right. Like it's just what I see. And then like I don't hit a good one.

And I'm like I could literally have just had a dead straight six iron to where I just hit that. But at the same time, I mean, I would much rather be that way than the other way and not have the opportunity. But I just know that, you know, when I get to an open championship or I get to some firmer conditions or windy conditions where I'm able to, yeah, I'm not necessarily stepping up there

and like, okay, I'm going to hit a 157 yard seven iron with a two degree left path or anything like that. Like it's just like, I don't know how I'm going to do it, but I just got to get the ball to end up on that green up there. And I mean, I remember being on 17 at Sawgrass on, on, on Friday or Saturday, whatever it was. And it just was like, I'm like, bones, like just give me a seven iron and, and, you know, it's like,

it's not even a number. Like you can't even try to possibly hit a number. I just remember telling myself like, if I was trying to pitch this thing out from the trees and I was trying to just kind of like, hit it out to the fairway, that's all I was trying to do. So it's, you gotta be creative from time to time and it's just something that's worked for me, I guess.

That was the most fun I've had watching golf in so long. I sat back there for like two hours and watched everybody come through and it was clear who like, who had the shot, who knew what to do and who just like couldn't figure out, you know, because it was that perfect like if you hit a seven iron too hard, it's going to go, it's not going to spin. It's going to straight to the wind and go long. If you hit an eight iron, it's got no shot to hit the front of the green.

So you have to hit the right seven iron. It was just, it was just perfect. It was, yeah, it was wild. One of those days would be really fun to go out and play with your buddies. But then you're like, Oh, wow, I have to turn in a scorecard today. And then it's a little stressful. When did, you know, so after hitting this chank on six, which I still can't believe is kind of a part of, uh, of this storyline from, from Al Farron after that, does it take for you to realize you can win this golf tournament? Are you leaderboard watching at all? Do you have any kind of concept as what's going on?

Are you just trying to, you know, get through the finish line? What's that like? I didn't, I didn't look at leaderboards on Sunday. I did something that I just haven't done very well this year to be perfectly honest. And I told Bones that I'm like, dude, like we're, I know I'm seven back, but I think there was only like five or six guys ahead of me, which is, as you know, is a massive difference

of seven back and being in 15, you know? It's, I was like, this is a hard golf course, it's gonna be playing tough, I have every single person in front of me is not one before. Like, they're, like, I'm gonna be nervous, but they're probably gonna be more nervous, and like, it's just, it's gonna be hard out there. So, like, let's just go play. It doesn't need to be a perfect, unbelievable round of golf, but like, let's just go do our thing,

and if it's good enough, whatever. But it just, yeah, I mean, when that happened, there was a lot of things that ran through my mind, but let's get into a playoff was not one of them for sure. It was just, let's somehow try to get out of here. And it just was kind of like each putt, they're each birdie that I made, it was a little bit different atmosphere or roar, but just that one I made on 12 was, I could feel was very, very different, and I could feel that I was in the tournament,

you know, it was a good time kind of thing. Well, I love that you given us another like decade of, you know, well, so and so could make bird, all these birdies and get into a playoff because you were at a less than 1% win probability when you made the turn, I think, and did it. So it's, yeah, gives us some reason. Is it easy to get into a playoff kind of coming in hot like you were at the end of that round versus like, you know, if you're expending a lot of energy late in the round to try

to win it then, it just seemed like when you walked onto that playoff, you were just ready to hit perfect golf shots. They looked kind of routine honestly at that point. Yeah, I think it's, I honestly was like in the perfect sweet spot to me because I think there's there's a big difference of, I mean, posting is always going to be good in a major. I think it's going to be better in some courses than others, but I mean, I said that to bones going into like Sunday at the US Open even. I was like, I mean, obviously, I didn't play well on Sunday, but being seven back, I'm like, if we go shoot five or six under a post, like, there's a pretty good chance that that could be good enough just because of the finish that the course had. But anyway, posting two hours before and having all that time and, you know, you get a little stale, you get a

little cold or it's just it's tough but and then also being in the last group and whether it's a letdown or the adrenaline of making a putt to get in the playoff or kind of the back and forth like that's also can be a lot and I was like the third or fourth last group so I mean like I was able to you know I finished I went inside my score, I literally went in the caddy area, I watched Mito hit his chip on 17, make par, hit his drive on 18, and as soon as that happened, like I didn't like I was very fortunate to where I was able to kind of keep them a men. I'm going a little bit, but it definitely, I'm sure Will felt the same way. I mean, we both felt like we had a second chance. That's going to be a one that gets replayed a lot. That was not only was it a heartbreaking finish to regulation, but the playoff was just supreme, supreme golf. Moving on to, I don't know if there's anything else going on

the golf world. If we want to wrap up, actually, I do have a if there's anything else going on in the golf world if we want to wrap up. Actually, I do have a couple more things maybe I want to ask you. What are you worn out from all of this? Are you exhausted from all of this? Yeah, I would just, yeah, I'm exhausted, annoyed. Yeah, I'm just, I'm over it for sure. I don't feel as bad about continually asking you guys about the situation because it does seem to change every week and we find ourselves in a new scenario every week after each round of defections. Now we're into the time period of somebody like Brooks who had said he would not be doing

this and now is doing it. I think it puts an unrealistic or unreasonable burden on you guys to revalidate your stance, like at what a week to week basis. But at the same time, it gets incredibly suspicious now when certain guys aren't speaking out now. And I'm just wondering, how do you view your role in all of this as it pertains to where your loyalty is lie and what you owe fellow tour members and what you owe to yourself in your career? How do you view your role as far as what you're saying publicly?

It's tough and I never thought I would be laying in bed so many nights thinking about this freaking tour and what's going on and all this stuff, but it's just it is. It's like I go back and forth on how involved I should be, how involved I shouldn't be, what I should say, what I shouldn't say, what I want to say, and what I know I can't say, and back and forth of all these different things. And when it first happened, when I came out of just, you know, it's like, guys, you know, they're going to do what they want to do. And like, yeah, do I wish they wouldn't have, but they're entitled to their own opinion

and decision and like, so be it kind of thing. And I still do think that way. But and Jimmy Don, I thought, I don't know, I'm just, did you read the article? Like I thought he, he like summarized everything that's been going on in here for me in that. And it's just, it's like, I understand they're being fed, everything we want to say and all this stuff. But it's just for them to say that this is all for the betterment of the game. And for them, I just, I mean, to be perfectly honest, just wish one of them would have the balls to say, I am doing this for the money. Like,

I personally would gain a lot more respect for that, but it's just the more that they keep talking to players, keep talking and saying that this is for the betterment of the game, the more agitated and irritated I get about it. Because I can't imagine for someone like me who's only on his eighth year, seventh or eighth year on tour and how important the tour is to me. First, just look at someone like Roy McRoy who's, I'm sure, had other opportunities to do something like this. You look at Tiger who's had God knows how many opportunities

and things to do something like this, but their loyalties and everything that they've stood for and pushed have been with this tour. Like, I know I feel that way, so I can't imagine how strongly they feel, and I'm sure they feel betrayed and hurt, because again, I do a little bit. So the more and more I think about it,

the more agitated and annoyed I get with the guys that have done it again. So be it, they took their money and the Saudis reached their number. But like I said, I've grew up my entire life wanting to play the PGA tour and play in Ryder Cups and Presence Cups and any kind of thought of that not being what it is is sad to be perfectly honest to my eyes. And that's just I never wanted to get to that point. So that's why I feel like I have been vocal. When you I think I know the answer to this, but I kind of want to hear you describe it,

when you say betrayed and hurt you as a tour player, why is that? Why even to almost like explain it to somebody that maybe not even follow golf, Why are you betrayed and hurt by other guys going and taking money from a different league? Well, because it hurts our tour. And it hurts us. So I mean, that's the thing of, and I heard someone that brought up a good point is they're saying that I'm sure at some point, some kind of lawsuits will be going. And if any of those guys that left to go play the other tour, sue the tour, they're suing me. They're suing Roy. They're

suing Tyre. They're suing every single one of us that they've looked in the face, looked in the eyes and played rounds of golf with, played on cup teams with, shared moments, whatever with, and they're suing us. So like to me, that's where a little bit of the betrayal and upsetting and sad feelings come from. Again, they are, they're clearly doing what they feel is best for them. So they're going to continue to go down that route in terms of lawsuits and whatnot. But when someone said it that way, I kind of hit home of, like, damn, they really, if they are,

they are doing that to the tour, but they're also doing it to me because I'm part of that tour. And that's where the identity of the tour is where I think there's still a disconnect from people that don't think of that as the players. You know what I mean? And I'm wondering how you view that, right? And if that's again, kind of to someone that maybe not even followed that closely, like explaining it literally what the tour is and how it provides value for its members. It's tough.

And I probably don't, I couldn't even begin to remotely explain it. So I don't need to get into it too much, but I just think how passion I've been about this is should at least share enough to what some people think. I mean, I'm not just, I mean, there's nothing I'm benefiting from this. It's not like I'm having lunch and dinner with Jay Monahan and he's like,

hey, you know, once you say this and we'll just flip you a little bit, it's like no. I mean, I just, I very well could have played the middle man and tried to get some kind of leverage out of this one way or the other. And but at the end of the day, at the beginning is like, I didn't know what was gonna happen. I still don't know what's gonna happen. I know what I hope will happen

and I will continue to play in the PGA tour and it will continue to be the best place in the world. But man, I hope more guys see that because the guys that they say they've looked up to forever, the Tiger Woods, the word McRoy's, who are very loyal to this tour and really, really, really put in a lot of their own time and effort to get it as good as it possibly can. That'd be disrespecting them, in my opinion. One thing I'm kind of amazed at or, you know, kind of confused by in this process is

something you've said to me multiple times and other players have said to me multiple times to something along the lines of like oh well you would know more about that than I would. And I find that sentiment a bit surprising or alarming. I'm surprised maybe there's not more intense chatter between guys like yourself and other top guys to have clear communication, clear lines of communication on plans because you know because of the potential that you outlined, of how much of a massive impact it could have on your career. Has that part of it changed at all through time? Are you talking with Rory?

Are you talking with Morakawa, Rom, and getting like, what can we do collectively as a group to help this situation? I'm wondering if that is evolved at all. I think, honestly, like I said, at the beginning, all of us are just like, what are we talking about? I mean, I think it's one of those things for me when if I hear a rumor about somebody or something in particular,

like I've had enough of hearing it about somebody and I will just call the player directly and be like, dude, you can tell me as little or as much as you want, but I heard this. And as a player who plays at the time, or hopefully whatever plays in the same tours you do, like I want to know because your decision is going to affect me and affect our membership.

So I want to know in here from your mouth versus someone on the internet or some person who knew somebody, you knew somebody. So that's the only time I will really get involved. But I think for the most part, like I said, a lot of us are just kind of like we have to answer enough questions, we have to talk about it enough that we're not going to go necessarily out of our way to talk about it any more than we need to. I guess when I was at Brookline, I was expecting to pick up on more sentiment, more awkwardness

between players that have defected versus players that have not. It could be more of a show of, I wasn't expecting public feuds on the putting green necessarily, but it felt very business as usual. Do you think there is more bad blood that is kind of simmering underneath the surface on a lot of these things? I can see it. I think it's just one of those things where you know, maybe if I walked past that person earlier and and said, hey, or ask how they were doing, I'm maybe just won't do it anymore. It's not like something where you know, I'm flipping them the bird or I'm you know, trying to make their life miserable by any means.

I'm just you know, it's one of those things you just, some people might not feel like that they need to give the time of day anymore would be my only guess. And what are your relationships like with some of the guys that have defected nowadays and how do you see that playing out in the future? I mean, it's, I'm still, the thing is,

is like I was friends, I am friends with Brooks and DJ, but it's not like I necessarily would talk to them that much. You know what I mean? It would just be seeing them at tournament and I would occasionally go fishing with DJ if he asked me to, but Brooks is pretty on his own. Like, we live very close to each other. So we might see each other randomly from time to time,

but it's hard to hang out any less when you didn't really hang out before. So it's just one of those things where, I mean, I can't imagine us getting any closer. We're not going to, I mean, you're only going to see them what four times a year, after an immense, you know, so be it kind of thing unless something changes. But so I don't necessarily see it changing for the better, but I don't, you know, and I mean, it's not like I'm planning a trip with four or five of them by any means either. One of the things you mentioned, what the comments that Jimmy Dunne had said, but one of the things he predicted is the guys that are, you know, only playing for money in low

stakes competitive environments could potentially lose their edge, their it factor. That's just very different than doing that and going and competing in majors after that. Do you before see that being a challenge when you're not playing intense events week to week? I'm wondering, compared to how that the tour prepares you for competing in majors, do you see a fall off potentially in any of that? Yeah, as a, I mean, to be perfectly honest,

I would have a, I've just never in my life really grown up or drug dreamt of like, well, I can't wait to go get started in this 54-volt shotgun start. You know what I mean? Like that in itself doesn't like a championship golf. It's it truly is exhibition type style. And I mean, I think you could see from any of the highlights, like it seemed a lot more laid back, it seemed a lot more relaxed. And I mean, I'd be relaxed too if I was them. They all just got paid a bunch of money and their life so-called just got better. So it's like, why wouldn't they be happy?

But you're not gonna see any of the Matt Fitzpatrick, Billy Foster moments on 18 green, or the moment, the great tournament know, the moment, you know, the great tournament, the Traveler's, I speak, are like the crazy crowds and the competitiveness in the back and forth and the adrenaline and fire you could see at the Canadian Open going on. It's just, at least I don't see it.

I mean, not for a little bit. I mean, the tour would have to develop some kind of reputation and credibility before it, you know, got to something like that, but I don't know. We'll get to kind of some of the recent PGA tour developments that have come out really in the last week. It's been a very, very busy last week. But is there anything in your mind that you think the tour could have done to prevent what

is currently going on with players leaving? Is it, you know, Monahan's press with players leaving. Is it, you know, Monahan's presser last week, he mentioned, you know, we can't on a monetary front. We can't compete with a foreign monarchy trying to buy the game of golf. And I'm just wondering, you know, we've had our from an entertainment standpoint, we've had a lot of suggestions in terms of how the PJ Tour product can get better. But I'm curious from from where you're sitting, is there anything that's like, man, Tour really could have done this and that would have really helped? Well, I'm sure, you know, looking back, they could say that they could have skipped

numerous steps to get to the final step that they're at at this given moment or the step that they're going to go for next season. I mean, that would, that surely would have helped somewhat. I mean, it's tough. It's so easy to say now, too, because it's, because of what's going on, you know, with the other tours, it's just like It's so easy to say now too, because it's because of what's going on, with the other tours, it's just like, oh, well, if we would have done this, then what this have happened. But like, my whole thing was just like,

I hate that it got to the point that something had to be done because of that. And it's like, and I feel like it was all things and conversations that had been going on behind the scenes for a while. I mean, I was involved in very little of them, but I had heard many rumors and things and conversations that had been going on behind the scenes for a while. I was involved in very little of them, but I had heard many rumors and things that were going to be happening. And although there was, I'm sure some decisions that were made because of this, a lot of decisions had gotten the ball rolling and things were starting to move forward regardless of what was going on there

and the timing of it obviously does not look ideal. So it's tough, man. I mean, it's one of those things you, that's one thing I will give a lot of credit to Jay and the PGA tours that they're willing to keep changing. It's not like it's, oh, this is our role we've done this forever. We have to do that. It's like, no, if it's going to better our product and people are going to want to be more involved, then why wouldn't we do it? And I don't think he's scared to make some of those changes if it's going to improve the PGA tour's whole.

A common reply I see under any updates I tweet out about tour updates or anything like that was, wow, Phil was right. So I'll ask you this was Phil right? His number sure so I won't write Yeah, I even saw Taylor Reuters taking credit for everything I've known Taylor for a long time and that was that was a hell of a take there But no, it was it was again that Phil I'm sure had been a part of a take there. But now it was, it was, again, that Phil I'm sure had been a part of a lot way more conversations and I had been, I think

it potentially the ideas were similar, but extreme, the extremeness that he took them all to, I don't think was necessarily true. I don't know enough about the ins and outs to definitely confirm or deny that any of it was true or not, but you know, the reserves that the PGH war has was the reason that we were able to continue to play for the money that we did during COVID. I mean, that's, you know, something that some people talk about it seems like nowadays in any sport is why aren't we playing for more and I'd be the first to say that I've done it many times especially with majors, but You know, it's it's just one of those things. It's like it's just the part of the process and steps that go toward it and Yeah, there's definitely been a lot of this takes out there though How would you describe either your understanding and maybe some of your peers as a whole, their

understanding of how the tour does business and the effectiveness of the tour at doing business essentially for you, their ability to stand up tournaments, market them, and put them on? What do you think the general sentiment is and what do you think the general understanding is of how that role works. I think that a lot of the membership doesn't know, but that's because they also don't ask. I think that, and that's not a knock to either side,

it's just, I mean, I know for me personally, I didn't know for a long time and I still don't really know that much, but it's also, I'm not worried about it. Like I understand I'm in a different position, but I'm trying to go play good golf. That's why I'm not getting involved on a lot of things going on is because it's just another distraction to me to try to play the best golf that I can. But one thing I've told so many guys, I shouldn't say so many, but I've told, you know, some guys on tour that

that would come to me and whether it was complaint about something or ask about something or like, I don't know this, I'm like, go to Jay, go to the people that work for the PGA tour. They will answer all the, they will happily answer any of these questions and and I've been very guilty of in the past of making assumptions and saying things without knowing what's really true or not. That seems like a lot of people do that these days, but it's just one of those things where if you want to know, just go ask, Jay will happily tell you like I can have other conversations with Jay or or people that work for the tour or tour members that can get the point across that I want to get across but at the end of the day it doesn't matter what we're playing for what the person is if I'm not focusing on my golf and playing well then I'm not going to be performing as well as I want.

The part that just blows my mind is like this sentiment. And it seems to come from exactly what you're talking about. If guys maybe talking to each other, maybe a few loud people in the room in guys' ears to say blah, blah, blah, blah, they're holding this money back from us. But the idea that like the tour is basically like illegally sitting on a tons of cash and just refusing to pay out the players

is mind-numbing to me. And it seems, but it seems to carry a lot of weight in public in terms of people think that the, the tours just sitting on massive, massive amounts of money and not paying it out. And I'm like, I don't understand how that would, you know, even be conceived or how that would be legal or how that would, they would get away with it for that long or what they're doing with that money. And it, I'm curious. Yeah, I was curious if you had heard like that sentiment from other players. Yeah, a lot of not a lot, but there's definitely

a lot of conversation that leads to, you know, rumors that aren't true or just things that are said that shouldn't be said without knowing more information. I think a big percentage of our membership, myself included, don't understand the restrictions on what the tour can't do because they are a non-profit. I think that is a massive, massive part of all of this that changes a lot compared to other leagues and other just organizations that are going on.

Are you interested at all in official leadership roles within the PGA tour? I don't know. There's times when I am, but again, I just feel that it would be another distraction. Like, it just, it's, I've always said that if I feel a certain way, and I mean, I've, I feel like I've gotten pretty good at this last four or five years to where if I feel a certain way, like, I'm going to reach out to the tour and I'm gonna tell them, whether I'm on the pack, on the board, just a player, a pass player, whatever it is, I mean, they deserve to hear at least what, I mean, at the end of the day, they do work for me in the rest of the tour membership, so they should hear if I think that something could be better,

it could be changed, or what guys are saying, or whatever it is, so I feel like something could be better, it could be changed or what guys are saying or whatever it is. So I feel like I can be involved enough that way. What are your thoughts on the recent developments? Are there several announcements last week, eight events now with super elevated purses and I think a huge thing at least for as a golf fan? FedEx Cup season limited to January through August. Do you see playoffs now have only 70 players in them now?

Do you see them personally and for yourself selfishly as is this a good development for you? And do you see this as a good development overall for the PJ tour? I think it is. I think it's a change that you can never win. It's like people say that the product is stale. It needs to change and then you change and then it's like, oh, you're getting rid of playing opportunities. It's like okay, well what, I mean, what what do you want kind of thing? And it's, I mean to be perfectly honest, I haven't even, I couldn't explain it from A to Z exactly everything to where, who goes where, how does this, what weeks that, but I just, I do know that this is again something that has been talked about

whether it's through myself or other players in past years. And just that's one thing that the tour, if we could just get more of the best players in the world playing in the same place as the same weeks other than the majors because you know, the only weeks that all the best players in the world play are the weeks that the PGA tour hasn't, you don't want to say nothing to do with, but they don't. It's not their product. It's the majors. So the more events that we can get our top guys, the better it will be for sponsors, the better, which then the better it will be for the tour, which then the better it will be for us, and better for the viewers. So I think it is a great opportunity. I think it's one of those things

that, again, like the FedEx cup when it first came out, it will probably take a tweak here or there, but I'm just, I'm excited to have the opportunity to have an offseason if I want. I've never had that. And COVID was obviously a crazy, bizarre time. And I wouldn't want it that way again if I could choose,

but I've never, that's the longest I've ever spent that many nights in a row in my own bed in my entire life since I went to college. So that's kind of crazy, but it gives us the opportunity to do stuff like that, and especially the guys that have families. I mean, it's kind of given more time with their family. I don't know, I think it's good,

but I can see why some people would disagree or think that I would think that. Well, if you disrupt the Apple cart or whatever the phrase is, there's going to be somebody paying, right? It's, if it's superstars, and I would personally say, we've said this for a long time, like the stars are paying their fair share for lack of a better term in terms of the value that's being created for the rank and file members of the PGA tour and taking some things off the table for the guys that are further down the list.

I think is considering the current circumstances of what's going on in ProGolf makes a lot of sense. And maybe, maybe things had to get all the way to the brink. You know, a lot of tweets out there today of competition drives chains. Look at what good live is actually doing for the game. I'm like, all right. Yeah. I mean, like this not what they meant and their press conferences, but I'm not not exactly like I still think we're in a fracture golf world that is not is not, you know, better off, but it is it is interesting to see, you know, these developments come and and yeah, I do think that this threat has helped them push it through. It seems like, but yeah, I mean, I was I talked to Jay in Baltimore in August of last year

about the fall series, like going away eventually, things like that. It's not like they just decided this past week. You know, that's how it's going to be. And that's something I've said because that was the first thing that I heard from some people was about, like you said, about the playing opportunities. And of course, taking care of the top players here and there. And it just and it's just it's so hard for me to say this without sounding bad but how I described it to them is I'm like look

if and this is kind of what I remember saying last year when I was a part of the pack and pack meetings once this whole conversation about this tour was starter about that tour was starting was like we have to take in them when the PIP came out and people were just like, oh well, of course, like you guys are going to get that. Like what about the other guys? I'm like, guys, I don't think you understand that. So I'm like, if some of these players don't get paid, and this is when we didn't know the absurd amounts of money

that guys were going to get paid, but if they don't necessarily get any kind of guaranteed money or if they don't, if they aren't compensated somewhat for what they're providing to the tour, then they will go to that tour. And if enough of those people go to that tour, you will not have a tour to play on because this tour will no longer exist. And that is something that it took me a little bit to kind of think about and realize. And, you know, sometimes you think of just like, Oh, you know, like that. I'm a good player and he's a good player, but does he necessarily need to make that much more?

Do this much more than me, but it's like, look, like you said, you got to be paid your respects. And if the person, if they are getting that, then we were able to keep this tour moving and doing really well to where all of those less playing opportunities will at least still have the opportunity to play versus not having a place to play at all. Yeah, and this goes, I mean, all this just goes back to the initial kind of what we discussed at the top

of what the role of the tour is. And like, you know, the whole fill thing with media rights is what I really stuck with me for so long because like the value of what the money you guys are paid out through the person comes from your media rights. It comes from bundling them all together and selling them to a sponsor. And that, yeah, that is where, you know, Rory McAroy is putting butts in the seats. He's putting sponsor dollars into the event by showing up at events and like going down the list.

And if you just picked the 50th guy, it happens to be Mav McNeely who, you know, he's made $2 million this year on the PGA tour and is not putting his many butts in the seats as Rory who has made 7.3 from the tour. And it's a system. It's an interesting system that some of the flaws in it are have been exposed through this irrational actor that has come into it. But it's who knows what's going to happen. Are you are you worried about more top guys going or do you feel like the onslaught is somewhat

complete? I don't think anything is off the table right now because it's talking to guys that are telling me they're not leaving. And then the next week, I see on TV that they're leaving clearly anything can happen. So I just think it's one of those things of you have to make the best of it and just really hope that I don't want to say people do the right thing because that's not fair for me to say. But people, there's not really a way to say it, I've just like making the making the decision, I guess, for the betterment of the PGA tour.

And hopefully it'll, it'll, I guess stay as is. Do you think there is a, you know, with this massive amount of money being thrown to guys from this lift or do you think there's a catch? Do you think there's like, you know, something that is gonna be a little uncomfortable at all for these guys in terms of what they're asked to do somewhere down the line in any way?

Offer for, I would have to imagine. I mean, they went from not having a boss to having a boss. I mean, that's, that was a pretty big, pretty big thing to me. It was going to be weeks where guys don't want to play, but they have to play. There's going to be, I'm sure, obligations or things they have to do that they don't want to do. So I know at some point, yes, there's going to be something that at least one player, if not multiple players don't want to have to do, but they don't have a choice. Kind of thing. We'll get you out of here kind of on the big important topic that we haven't really covered and yet the one of the biggest golf events we've had in the last, you know, several years

really, the slime cup. You got to tell us about what, how did that all come together? What was what was the mission overall of that? So yeah, Brittany Brittany, who in Lance, who worked for me at Excel, they reached out and it just was kind of like, well, I never thought I'd be asking you something like this, but Nick Cologian wants to know if you want to be a part of the slime cup and naturally didn't know much about that. And here in that colon and John and Lexi, we're going to be a part of it.

And how small it was, obviously, it was very cool. And then the celebrities and then the kids from Nickelodeon. It just was obviously a completely different viewership than I've I've ever had. You know, it's I've never had my, you know, Jill's nephew so excited to watch me on TV before, you know, being young kids. So it's just little things like that. And I think the timing of it was obviously great in terms of trying to help grow the game and get to a great place and get to kids and just the opportunity

to do something like that. But it was funny rewatching it because I did. It was so cold. Like it was, it was in, we did in LA in February. It was so cold by the end of the day. And then once you get that slime on you and because of the teams that we are, I mean, we're in short sleeves and columns and shorts,

but we were freezing and like, I just remember watching it because the other teams were on the other sides, we never saw them, but I watched Lexi. And Lexi was just walking around like this and like I always had my hands and my pockets. Like it was so knowing that it was so funny to watch it going back because I'm like, I'm freezing my ass off during. Just try, just out here, try to grow the game.

I love it. Yeah. No. All right, man, we're gonna let you go. This was greatly, greatly appreciated. I know you get asked these questions a million times a day and we really appreciate you taking the time. And going through it all, and I think I've emptied the tank.

That's all I've got for you. I love that you've led with how tired and how annoyed are you of these questions, and then just laid it on me. I warned you that was going to happen, so again, I don't feel bad. I do not feel bad. I should have, yeah. I don't know.

The text you sent me is that I'm not going to ask anything about what it is. I'll tweet the text he sent me is that I'm not gonna ask anything about what. I'll tweet the text I sent you if you're gonna put me on blast like that. No, don't tweet our messages out there. Be better from up to the bus. Well, thanks for the time, man. Best luck with the rest of the season. Can't wait to see the old course and yeah, I really appreciate it.

You got it, man. Thanks. Give it a big club. Feed a right club today. Yes! Yeah! That's better than most. How about in? That is better than most.

Better than most! Expect anything different.