No Laying Up - Golf Podcast - NLU Podcast, Episode 594: Keith Mitchell

Episode Date: August 25, 2022

Keith Mitchell returns to the pod fresh off the heels of today's press conferences in Atlanta highlighting the upcoming changes to the PGA Tour.  Keith gives us his take on how the changes detailed in today's announcements will be received among fellow pros, the impact of Tiger's involvement, how he views the guys who left the tour for LIV, his plans for the offseason and more. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

I'm going to be the right club today. Yes! That is better than most. How about him? That is better than most. Better than most. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to the No Laying Up Podcast. Solid here coming to you live, ish, whatever you want to call it, from Sea Island. We went up to Sea Island today. Watch the press conference.

Jay Monhan's press conference and Rory's with Keith Mitchell. We've been talking with Keith for a long time about him coming on at some point to get his perspective on everything that's going on in the golf world. You'll see kind of quickly why he's kind of the perfect guy to talk to about a lot of this stuff. He was excellent. Talked about immediate reaction to everything. It's very fresh as we go to record it.

So bear with us as we kind of work through some of the details of what had just happened today. I want to give a shout out to of course to our friends at Roeback. You guessed it. I'm wearing one of their hoodies right now. I'm wearing their hoodies on a pretty much daily basis, even though it's way too hot down in Florida and in Southeast Georgia as well to be wearing hoodies. Their performance polos, they fit so much better than your typical boxy polos. Their forway stretch, next level, material, super soft stays wrinkle free. The founders went through over 20 iterations on

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wash. They're just good quality material. They're gaining traction big time and you can use code NLU at robac.com for a generous 20% off your first order. That's robac.com, rhobac.com, 20% off polo order. That's roback.com, R H O B A C K dot com 20% off polo's Q Zips hoodies and T's with code and L U. Here is Keith Mitchell. All right. We are hitting record on this roughly 68 seconds after the press conference mania of today. It was very interesting to sit here with you, Mr. Keith Mitchell in your home

as watching the future of your career playout. A lot of really good, positive things as a PGA2 player to see happening. I don't think as a PGA2 player, regardless of where you are, you should be, you know, unhappy with what was happening because it's everything that they announce is only things that benefit everyone. And that's, you know, it seems like, of course, you know, we find all our news on Twitter these days. There's some people out there saying it's only benefiting

the top players and, you know, being in the meetings and stuff, I don't see that as the case. And I'm excited to say that like it's as a PG, I'm a fringe PGA to I'm the definition of a fringe PGA to a player finishing in the, you know, 30s for well, I got what I finished just your 40 something missing. But I've been in the BMW championship for out of five years, my scovid and I've never made this to a championship. So I'm not a top player, but I'm all like that fringe top 15 in the world,

getting the majors, not getting the majors, like always trying to adjust your schedule. And I feel like I'm benefiting from this. If I play well and I can play in the all these elevated events, like that's fantastic. And that's where I wanted to kind of start with is, you know, it seems like there's, and they're not even tears, but I almost think there's three tiers here, right? There is, the guys that were in that room, right? And I thought you'd be the most interesting guy to talk to because one of those guys in the room

are not speaking publicly about what went down in the room last week, but the next tier is the guys that will be as of now looking like they're in a great position to qualify and be in these elevated events. And then the next tier is the guys that are not currently in the position to be able to qualify for these events. And I think those are three different stakeholders in this. And I'm curious to kind of start from, are you comfortable with this group of players?

And I don't know if this is the reality, but the perception being these players are deciding the future of the PGA tour through, you know, through Rory, through Tiger, through the policies that they recommended. Are you comfortable with how that is trending currently? I'm comfortable because they're doing it together and bringing it to the tour and trying to make the tour better. They're not doing it behind the tour's back and going to another tour and try to use it as leverage for that tour like I think that's the biggest difference here is like Roy said it perfectly his press conference like we're doing this together to help the tour It's like we're only reason it's it's quote-unquote secret is because they don't want any misinterpretation

Of the media and putting it out and not saying what is really true and not true. And that's exactly what still happened. Like, there's multiple articles that, you know, I mean, I'm finding a lot of my golf news on Twitter right now. And it's so interpreted and opinionated that these guys are like, look, we want to bring this to the tour the right way. And we want to make sure it gets to the tour exactly how we want to the tour and have no preconceived notions before anything happens we want J to be able to announce these things we want to be able to announce these things and not the other way around so I think when people understand that that's the difference because these guys have

talked to a lot of players outside of the meeting about what was talked about in the meeting and that's not to say that they're trying to hold anything from the other guys. It's just simply saying, like, Hey, this is the direction we think we should go in. What are your thoughts? And what can we do to do it? If you don't mind, like, don't share this to the media so we can make sure that it comes out properly. And that didn't necessarily. Yeah. Exactly. There's nothing that what you've described there, what any player has described from that room that that and what, you know,

Jay Monhan's been involved with this for going back to July, at least. I don't know the exact dates, but has been kept abreast of what's been going on with Tiger and Roy. But like there was a step in this process that included these top players got to get in the same room and and come up with a plan amongst them and agreement amongst them that we need to be together on the course more often from there we can work on getting this into policy but this is not a coup in this room but let's discuss right now our commitment to each other and this tour and and getting elevated events that we're all going to play and and that is you know ideally in a perfect world that's a step in the process, you wouldn't even get out to the public, right? That would just be like,

hey, the initial discussion is not the news. The news is gonna be coming from the policy change. Right, and that's the most important thing is they just all know that they should play together. And there has already been elevated events on the PGA tour. It just hasn't been officially acknowledged to say the least because you know, I'm I'm I was like third the last guy in the field at WGC at the match play or something like that right. You know, I got into the open by a top 10 at RBC and I got into the PGA off the points list. So these are all criteria is to get in these bigger tournaments that are essentially elevated tournaments, right? So it's just the tour recognizing for the first time that saying, hey, these tournaments are better

and the top players are recognizing that we all need to make sure we play those tournaments to make sure they are better and that's not anything unheard, that's not some, it's not coolable. I don't even know that's right or word. That's just like saying out loud, hey, we understand that these tournaments are probably bigger than the others. So we just all need to make sure we play in them.

And it doesn't need to be any more complicated than that. Yeah. I wanna kind of, I don't know what the question is to start from on this, but I'm gonna go, I'm gonna pick on McKinsey Hughes just a bit and he had a article or a Ryan Labner article came out on golf channel.com McKenzie Hughes called it live 2.0 the new setup and I will give McKenzie the benefit of the doubt here that he had not seen the He had only seen the reports that had come outside the thing the things that we we as the guys in the group tried to things that we as the guys in the group tried to avoid.

And then McKinsey got caught in that trap, which therefore creates a cycle of misinformation that is untrue. And so you're right, you give McKinsey the huge doubt because I'm sure if he had time that week and sat down and Rory, Rory would explain that it's exactly not that. And I was caught in almost caught in that trap. I was walking off the golf course,

trying to catch a plane. You know, the meter was like, hey, we need to talk to you about this. And I had no intention, you know, to come immediately off the golf course, answer a question I didn't know that could be paraphrased in an article that I didn't have all the information on. So I politely declined to answer on that because I didn't have all the information So I would be speculating off of something that I don't know about and I promise you Mackenzie uses a smart guy He you know, that's just what he thought off of reading Twitter and that's so unfair. Yeah

I texted him after that and just said like what you know when was this and and you know had you seen the I had you seen our report which I believe has very correct information in it. He hadn't yet. And it was just kind of like, yeah, it's funny, it's really wild to see this cycle work in this way, where we're not necessarily always in the know, but this time around, we had the information about what actually went down and to watch the new cycle, get out of control really quickly, was kind of scary. I was just like, oh, this is a lot of people don't trust the media.

Right. And that is the whole point of these the quote unquote secret means. Like, just like we were working together with the players and the tour and we don't want any false information out there. And it's that simple. Anything more than that is is taken a spin on something that happened. And you know, I hate to say that even the people that were reporting about the meeting and what was going to be talked about the meeting report later that what they said was going

to be talked to meeting wasn't even talked about in the meeting and then that wasn't even talked about in the meeting. So it's just like sitting here and reading these things and it's just so disappointing because you want to be able to get it all in one place and all announce in a very clean manner. And that's exactly what Jay tried to do today in his press conference. And that's why the guys didn't really want to talk about it because they wanted to come from Jay's mouth in front of the public at our biggest event. Yeah.

Because you're not, you know, you don't want him to look less powerful in this. If anything, a point I've made, I'm curious if you would agree with this. If anything, a point I've made, I'm curious if you would agree with this. If anything, this is the best weapon Jay has had, maybe in his whole tenure of actionable items, because previously, and Rory acknowledged this in the meeting, and Jay kind of spoke to the unique nature of this meeting, and that just does not happen very often among PGA tour players, is like, here's 200 different opinions, like individually from people that just does not happen very often among PGA tour players is like he hears 200 different opinions like individually from people he does not hear a consensus group opinion. He might hear something different from Patrick Cantley that he would hear from Jordan Speed that he would hear from you that he would hear from Billy Horschl that he would hear from

William McGurt and like merging all that together to keep a membership happy is a near impossible task. But if you get the top players to basically say, hey, here is what we agreed upon privately. This is the actionable item. Look how fast that got turned around. I mean, this, first of all, a lot of what was in the meeting last week was about 2024. And I don't even think, I don't even know if the players had an expectation for 2023 and sure enough, four more events get elevated in this short of time, which seems like one of the bigger action items out of today's news. A total agree, and I think that people have,

I can't, you know, I don't really know how to, that was that a question? No, I just wanna balance a bunch of stuff off you. I want you to poke holes in it. Like I, you know, come up with a lot of this stuff we do, and I want, it makes a lot more sense coming from somebody that's involved in it,

but I just, yeah, I wanna make sure we're on the right track here. I personally watching that now, you know, people can say that I'm a tour loyalist and by all means I am, but as a player, period, I don't care what, you know, where your stance is. I don't understand, you know, I don't want to say say don't understand the negativity because that's not what we're talking about It's like this is so positive to be a player in this Moment in time for all these things going on and now you can say well, this wouldn't happen if it you know Wasn't for live well. I'm saying it wouldn't happen if all the top players

Didn't get on the same page and say hey hey, guys, like, this is our tour. This is what we want. And we need to make sure that it happens. Well, that's the really the good way to do things. And I equate a top player as someone, you know, it's probably too generalized of an argument. But someone who potentially makes more money off the course than they do on the course. Because that means that your media rights, I hate that word, marketability, or how much people, how many companies want to be a part of you, and what you do, and your golf, and your platform,

et cetera, and the tour gives you the right to do that and doesn't take a dime from it. It's really kind of a, it's the only place in sports where you can brand yourself and not give it to the person that you're using their platform for. Like that's huge, right? So, like I got like me, I've never made more off the course than I have on.

But, so like, I'm looking at the PGA Tour's platform is bigger than my platform. So I am thankful for the PGA Tourist platform is bigger than my platform. So I am thankful for the PGA Tour because I am using their platform and that is the majority of my income and not my own self. Where you can like a tiger and it's like, well, he was making so much more off the course

because he was, I don't wanna say bigger than the tour but he was the tour and that's why. And so you look back at these guys, you know, of course, no one knows what really anyone makes on and off the course. But if you cross that threshold in my personal opinion, like you're a top player and maybe the pit kind of recognizes that. I don't know, but that's just a very generalized simplistic way to look at who's bringing value to the tour because that's peat outside

Influence is telling you that you your platform is worth more than your golf potentially That's that means a lot in Ricky Fowler is a definition of that He has brought people to the game You know even from all the way from the hats to the clothing to Cobra, you know to Puma these these companies way more than he has actually done on the golf course. It has nothing against his golf. I mean, he was the top 10 player in the world for a while. That is more of like saying, this guy created so much value that people thought that his

marketability was equivalent if not more than his golf. It's an entertainment product and without bringing people bringing the entertainment, there is no dollars to play for. It's just not the case. So, all right, so one of the things that came out of today was an increase in the PIP from 10 to 20 players, from 50 million to 100 million. What is your overall stance view

of the PIP in general and how you understand it? I think it goes back to what we just talked about is on the course, off the course. And the tour is simply saying, like, you make the biggest marketing impact to our tour and the biggest entertainment value to our tour and the biggest entertainment value to our tour. And again, we are entertainers. Like, I don't like using a popularity contest, but we are entertainers period. And that is at the end of the day, what we are. Yes, we legacy

tradition, meritocracy, all that stuff is what drives our tour but if we're not providing an entertainment value none of that stuff exists period and up think the PIP is the PGA tour's first way of acknowledging our marketability to the tour and I don't necessarily have a problem with it at all but it's a very easy thing to poke holes into and a very easy thing to poke holes into and a very easy thing to talk about. And I, you know, back to my point is, you know, the tour, I'm thankful the tour lets us use our platform and has almost zero restrictions on our marketability. We can make as much money as we want, put logos wherever we want and use their platform to make it and they don't take a cent. I don't think enough people talk about that. And I think the PIP program in

my personal view is the tour simply aligning with that. Mm-hmm. Amplifying it basically. Exactly. Exactly. It's a parallel to that. And I would, you know, I would be shocked to see, you know, it does, but it does include your performance, but so your performance is already come. It's already, it's common saying and you're so is that it has everything to do with your marketability. If I'm a top 10 player in the world, I'm going to make more off the course and I am a 60th in the world. That's just how it works. I think it in a way, though, can increase in a time where though, can increase.

In a time where loyalty to the PGA tour is very much in question, it can help serve as a mode of increasing that loyalty. So say we're taking, I don't know what the total comp number is for the PGA tour. Let's call it $600 million right now. If you are taking up a part of that pie, part of that $600 million putting putting aside 100 million to say, hey, the guys that are influencing and driving the value the most,

we're gonna pay you out of these PGA tour funds for that. In addition to what you're making off the course, this is PGA tour money that is getting paid to you. You're getting this because you play on the PGA tour. Seems like a way to shore up, and as I understand it, the new PIP is going to involve a, if you're getting PIP money

and involves a commitment to the next year's elevated schedule. If you qualified for it, it is, I don't know how enforceable all that is, but that's how I understand the PIP to work for the next year to say like, because if you look at last year, five of the 10 guys that got PIP money left, they're gone, they went to live, right? There was no contingency of any kind in last year, five of the 10 guys that got PIP money left, they're gone. They went to live, right?

There was no contingency of any kind in last year's PIP. And it seems like this year, they've found a way to say like, hey, let's use this money to also shore up your commitment to the PGA tour. That seems like a good thing to me. A hundred percent. It's, I mean, look at any other business. It's like, you only get your, it's like the vesting plan, right? Yeah.

Which how does that work for listeners that don't know? You have to play five consecutive years on the PG-2 or a 15 events per season to be vested in the under your retirement. It's like, this is more money than their retirement. So like, yeah, like, hey, we're gonna, we're gonna help us grow the PG-2 or brand. We're gonna help you grow your brand,

but we need to make sure that we're aligned to be able to do those things. There is, I have, absolutely, I don't think anyone has a problem with that. If you're gonna take all this money from us, then you need to make sure that you're committed to us. It's very, I don't know how the corporate America works, but like stock compensation, when you work for a company,

they give you stock, et cetera. I mean, yeah, there's contingencies to those, right? Like, there's rules that to those, right? Like there's rules that you, in order to receive this, you must do this. And I don't want people to think like, oh, like you're committing, you're having to play these four events. Like players are gonna wanna play them

because of the purses and because of the, like I make my schedule around the players and the majors if I'm in them. I don't just skip them. I don't have to play them, but I don't choose to play the biggest ones. And that is a distinctive factor where I'm sure you're not required. It's just saying it's like a soft hand shake agreement. That's what the meeting goes back to yeah

Exactly, and I just think that that's that is a better entertainment model. Yeah period. Yeah Do you think in a this here's what I think I'll say I think the players in some capacity should own that it's taking this long Then we get in a room together to agree upon an approach going forward, right? It the hand has been forced a little bit by live. I think it's impossible to ignore that at this point. And when the FedEx cut money's flowing and everything's flowing, it's hard to push, you know, significant changes through to a model

that is working, right? And I'm wondering, you know, what the other side of like, if I raise my hand and be like, you know what, the players got to own a little bit of this. Not all of this was Jay's job to have like come up with all of this. Is there any accuracy in that? I think Roy said it so well in his press conference

that Phil wasn't necessarily wrong. He just did it the wrong way. And what does that mean? It means that if Phil had all these concerns, why don't him and Tiger get in a room and then him and Tiger invite Roy and, you know, at the time, you you know all these guys and say like hey guys this just feels like we need to maybe do something about this. And let's

work together to get this done. What's so wrong about that right? And you know I've looked up to Phil for a long time and he's been great to me and you know's obviously had a lot of controversy, but I don't want to say he was right. I don't want to say he was wrong. Nobody wants to say he was right. I want to say that, imagine if we, there's a lot of top players over there. Again, why are the majors the best? It's because they're over there. Again, why are the majors the best? It's because they're all there. Well, if all those players came together and did it together on the PGA tour and the majors,

what, I mean, why is that, why is that model bad? And that's what frustrates me a little bit is if it wasn't for live, this wouldn't happen. That's not necessarily true. It's more of like, hey, the tour had the ability to do this. The tour is clearly listening to the players. And I, you know, I'm speculating in the past, but if all the players had these concerns and all these things were possible, imagine if they all got together in a room and then went to Jay and took it to him and there are the owners of the tour.

And Jay says no, or the tour says no, then you have a problem. Correct. And I don't think that would have happened. Right. I really don't. Like, and people, and again, this is all speculative. So people say, well, it wouldn't. It should have.

Yeah. Whatever. But if they were all aligned and they all, when we all, they, we, we, we, we, we, well, it wouldn't, it shouldn't have, it's just whatever. But if they were all aligned, and they all, when we, they, we are all aligned and we have a proposal, and it is for the better of the tour, then there's no reason to or wouldn't do it. That's what's mind-blowing to me is that people actually think the tour is saying,

no, we want to screw you. Like, that's like honestly, like like the argument that they're saying. And I'm like, no, I just can't possibly believe that. Because if they do that, then they're the ones that are screwed. Right. A quick break here to check in with our friends at Pinehurst. Listen, the 2024 US Open is not very far away.

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You also got the brewery, they got the newly redesigned north and south bar. Pinehurst continues to evolve. It is much more than a bucket list destination. It's a place to go again and again. We go pretty much every year. I think maybe even two times a year now we've made it a, I guess, an appointment to get up to Pioneers both in the spring and in the fall because we have such a blast up there.

And the team up there is just absolutely awesome. Go to Pioneers.com right now to play in your visit. Now back to Keith Mitchell. Where does Monahann's job or the PGA tour executive, you know, put his whole team kind of included in this. Where does his job start? Should this initiative have come from him? Should it have come from somewhere within the PGA tour?

Is that what you as a PGA tour player think that the executives are being paid to do? Certain things like this come up with something like this to thwart off other threats or get this pushed through? Why does it take the players to get together to push it through? And is that unique to golf compared to other sports leagues? Well, to go to the very end of your question where it's unique to golf, is there are so many ways to to structure our sport because it is individual. I mean, think about it. Bearcaw's stable for WGC's match play. You have the playoffs that do all these points. Then you have 72 holes and you have, you know, it's, it's, there's so many different

avenues that you can send the game of golf that you can get, it can be over complicated. It, you can have teams, you can not have teams. You can have 18 holes. You have, you know, think about the, just think about the playoff Formats alone in certain majors and then term it's like oh this four-hole aggregate This is sudden death. This is an 18 hole Monday with the US opening speed. I remember you used to be 36 holes So there's unlimited creativity in the sport and people don't understand that like when you have unlimited creativity and Unlimited opportunity to do literally whatever you want in our sport, ideas can go any which direction. And it's very hard to decide what's best.

The idea that came out was the best players need to play against each other regardless. That is the only important idea in my opinion. And I don't know how Jay says like, hey guys, y'all all need to do this. Now how enforceable that is. Right. And then if those guys are independent contractors, they decide their own schedule, they do what they want to do. And they're like, well, now the two are trying to control us and tell us we have to play these tournaments. Like, we want to be able to play whenever we want to play. So like, the players came to that agreement together and brought it to the tour, they're saying, Hey, we want to play together. If the tour brought

that to the players, it might look a little different. Yeah. And so that's very, you got to look at that in a very, you know, careful way because imagine the tour executive brought, set all the tour players down. It's like, all right guys, here's your schedule. You have to play these events. That wouldn't go over well. That wouldn't go over well.

But if all the players go to the tour and say, hey, we all want to play together. We're the top players, we think that's the best entertainment. All the tours are going to be like, you're right. Yeah. And I think that's the line you have to draw is yes they work for us, but you know where do we how do we meet and how do we you know make the best of that. I mean their job is to grow the PJ tours business as much as possible. Make as much money and give as much money

to charity as possible. So like I think it's so funny that it's negative that the tour has a bunch of reserves. That's just means they're doing the right things. They're saving their money and they're using it for things exactly like this. Don't have an issue. Let's go this way. I'm a lower tier guy, lower than you.

I'm not in a position right now to be qualified for elevated events right now. I am in the meeting, I'm saying in a position right now to be qualified for elevated events right now. I am in the meeting. I'm saying, hey, this new model is bad for me. This is not good for me. I can't play in these events. What about me? What about me? What about me? What would your response to that be? Well, it's pretty easy for me to say because I'm perfectly that guy. Well, but again, you're going to be in the elevated events, I think, as of now, what's your world ranking? I don't know. Okay. I mean, you would be you would be close. You'd be right at the edge, but you, but I'm talking about guys that are like, listen, the 3M is like my tournament. Like that's that's where I'm at right now. You know, I'm not close to being qualified

for these events. This looks like a bad thing for me on the surface. That's that's how it's been communicated by some people out there. I'm wondering what your response to that would be. First, that was what they were playing in before this came out. Their schedule isn't changing. If you play well, and if you get into the top, whatever they decide on the FedEx cup and whatever in the world rankings,

then you will be in those events, period. That is that simple. And that's what it was already. So that is not changing. And that's the whole point. So like being a, like people make their schedules around the tournaments they enjoy in the bigger tournaments.

Period. Okay. Now the top players are just saying, hey, we all want to make our schedule around. We're all going to make our schedule around these bigger tournaments and throw a few more in. Okay. Now the top players are just saying, hey, we all want to make our schedule around. We're all going to make our schedule around these bigger tournaments and throw a few more in. Yeah. So, you know, basically, persons aren't going down in the lower tier of us. Yeah. That's, yes, I didn't even think I had to say that. Like that, that, that's so obvious to me. And I see you.

Some sentiment though of like, if I'm a sponsor, I, I forget who said, as if I'm a sponsor, you know, of said is if I'm a sponsor you know of of a lower tier event this is a dark day I'm like dude look at the field event look at the look at the ratings and the fields for those events this past year already and this past year is dead and gone like this the alternative to this is not the status quo I'm screaming that the mountain tops the tour was never going to look again like it has looked this past year

It was always it had to have changed at this point. I Think now I don't want to I don't know the answer to this and I don't I don't it was very unclear in the press conference and we haven't talked about it in the one you know the one time I was in the room for listeners sake to this We are recording this incredibly fresh off this press conference. Neither of us have had a really a chance to download our thoughts. I'm giving you the benefit of that with that. But Maverick McNeely is one of the smartest people that plays on the PGA tour.

And if like there was an IQ test, he would probably be a PIP guy. I mean, he is very smart. Also, Brian Harman came up to the same conclusion completely separately. And it's like, look, why not rotate some of these elevated events to all of the different fields?

Right. Now, I think that's been considered. Again, this is not talking about 23. We're talking about, we have a year to iron these things out. And these are again, this is the goes back to the idea point. There's infinite ideas for this tour and the game of golf. And it's finding which ones potentially work the best for entertainment value sponsors, players, et cetera.

But how cool would it be if the elevated event was Pebble Beach? And when we say elevated events, we're just simply saying we're all the top players decide to play. Yeah. That's that's all it is. And the reward for those players is more money. And I don't, I've always said like I don't necessarily think the more money translates more entertainment, but there's an exchange here, right?

Yeah. Bigger purse, go into the top guys, and more top guys means more entertainment for me watching on TV. So the more money, if they get the top guys there, it does in a round and a way it provides more time. It can, but the players now just say like, all right guys, we can't be picking and choosing

for other reasons. We need to be there regardless. And that's what is gonna drive the entertainment value, which you can't disagree with. That's why the majors are, that's the whole point. That's why the majors are the best because they're all there. Anyway, back to the rotating events, how cool to be the Pebble Beach is the elevated field. I mean, this one of the greatest golf courses in the history of the game. And then you have, you know, I've had the ability to play with Larry, the cable guy and Josh Allen, and Larry Fitzgerald and Ray Romano, all these guys.

Can you imagine how an entertainment value that would bring? And then go to a place, I mean, it's infinite of all the other points. I mean, waste management and elevated event. Imagine the top 50 players coming down on 16, 17, and 18 in that atmosphere during a Super Bowl. Those are great entertainment things. And at the end of the day, that is the point that we're going to hammer home. Is the top players playing together, where they're, it doesn't matter where. It does not matter where. Yeah. And a rotating schedule of those elevated events,

I mean, of course you keep LA probably, and you're gonna keep century is that, and you're gonna keep the players, obviously. These are the more you want to put in. Yeah, but to be able, I think they announced potentially four more and then be able to rotate those four around, you're an opposite field event. They're not an opposite field.. They're not opposite field.

You're a non-el- I hate these. That's, it's so convoluted. Like, it had to change. Yeah. If you're not one of the originally announced elevated purses, right, the three. Yeah, and you're like,

this is unfair to me. What they're like, well, you look at your field the last five years, okay? Imagine one of the last five years, you're gonna get all the top 50 players, period. Versus what you had prior. I don't think any single one of them is gonna be upset about that. Right. And I could be wrong, but I don't see if you look at the history of the last five years of certain tournaments and how many top 50 players they had and then saying You'll probably get the same because there's still you know

These guys played because of a certain reason either like the golf course I like the location. I like where it finished schedule and those guys are probably gonna stay the exactly the same as the last five years And then one of those five years you're gonna get all of them. That's a win for everybody. It sure seems that way That's where yeah, it's hard to, it's just hard to, it's hard to marry at all, right? It's hard to say, you know, I guess like we've, we've been pretty hard on WGC's in the past to say like they don't necessarily provide the most value, but I, I think I'm hopeful for this because I'm going to watch AT&T anyways, right? And so it makes more sense to have a aggregated, a better field for that event, like a way elevated field for that.

A question for you. What's the field, what's the right field size? What is it, you know, and is there a cut in these elevated, elevated, elevated events or whatever, whatever tier we're calling them? You know, that's, that's a, that's probably the biggest thing the tour and the players need to iron out. That is a big, big decision. And my, my, very easy simple take that is, I wouldn't say informed to the highest at level. I would say, you know, casually informed of gut instinct is. Yeah. Is that the tour and, excuse me, all the tours across the world agreed to the new world ranking system because they had third party people come in and assess it and figured this was the most fair model. Okay. That model is based off of the every player in the field, not just the top 10-ish. The previous model

was it cut off around the top 100, I think, is where basically you got points for up to a certain ranking if you were added to the field. And if you're outside the top 100, you weren't adding any value to the field. Right. I don't know what the actual number was, but that's the concept. But now it's counting in some way every player in the field. Right. So the larger the field size, the more moral, rural ranking points. So the difference is the smaller the field size, the more average points per player. So if you have 50 person field, the winner won't get as many world ranking points, but the guy in 40th or 50th will actually might get a point, even no matter how he plays.

So the World Golf Ranking Committee has presented the newest World Golf Ranking System three two weeks ago. It started, yeah, basically, yeah, beginning to play out. It started in Memphis. Yeah. And it is saying that larger the field size, the better, which was what the PGA tour was. We had 144 of the best players in the world. And they're like, yeah, this is a lot harder than a 80 person field somewhere else in the world with only two guys. Right. And so that is where that mouth. So the lesser the field, the lesser the world ranking points,

the argument on the cut and the no cut is John Rom, last week at BMW. He played terrible the first two rounds and shot 65, 67. What place did he finish? Top 10, I think. Top 10, right? And he would have missed the cut. So you have John Rom, finishing the top 10 of

retirement. He's one of the top players. That's, I guess you would call it more entertainment. I don't know. Is that more entertainment than having a cut? I don't know. And we need to look at that to the people that pay to watch our sport. I hate to

say like hey guys I know you guys are top guys you need to play together no one disagrees with that but this you know we're dealing with water ranking points and we're doing an entertainment value that is beyond your comfort level of a cut no cut field size big field size Because if you're the best player in the world, you're going to make that cut 70 to 80% of the time. Period. You're going to still beat those guys 70% of the time. It's just in the stats, in history, in, you know, it is this how it works.

So that's where I, that's where I've uncertain of what is right, what is wrong. You know, if the field size is big in the elevated events, does that take away more players from the other events potentially? But is it better? Is it better? There's just so many things that as you love to say unpack here that I'm too, you know, there's not an easy right answer to this. A lot of people feel strongly about this one way or the other.

I don't even know necessarily where I net out on that. I'm too green in this. And to my take is too green, because I don't have enough of the, I don't even know if it's called facts, just information. I will say this, it seems like based on information we have that for the first time and since I've started doing this the light bulb has gone off among top tour players that the entertainment value of golf is lacking, right? It is the ratings are not good and careful with that. Don't say it's lacking. They say it could be better. It's it's I would you can say that I would venture to say it's lacking. I think the demographic is scary as to how old the golf fan is It's always been that way and

That's part of the problem. So we're trying to get it better. That's not that's not the problem. It's not gotten worse It has gotten worse. It's gotten worse since COVID The age demographic of the television viewer. I don't know about since COVID, but it's not trended the right direction I did that think I think that has, okay. But anyways, yeah, I see what you're saying. I'm getting to a point of, listen, there is part of what is resonated with guys is the information that, hey,

when zero the top 10 players in the world are in the field, this is what the TV ratings average. And when all 10 are you are here, this is what they average. And that's a stark difference. It's a very stark difference. So like, let's just, hypothetical scenario we're playing this out. Light bulb goes off.

Golf needs to be more entertaining, right? Let's view it through this lens. Let's view our changes through the lens of golf needs to be more entertaining. Going back to the cut thing, I would say, if we're viewing it through that, what sponsors want to pony up for, they don't want to send John Rom home on a Friday. They don't, they don't want to. And golf fans like don't listen, if he's a million over par and like,

is it going to be interesting on the weekend? No, it's not. But at the same time, there's show up on Sunday and so watch. He could. He could. You could go watch John Rom on Sunday if you wanted to. And so from that view,

it's like, I would say no cut makes sense. Like I look at you can definitely argue like, all right, why are we on the schism of entertainment versus competition? Are we trending too far in one direction? Like, I am willing to be talked into that as well. Maybe not all of the events need to be no cut.

Maybe some are a hundred players with a cut. Maybe some are 60 without a cut. Maybe it's 70 without a cut. I don't know. But I think it is, as long as the, the balance is there in terms of understanding the competitive aspect of this. I think, or I'm sorry, the entertainment aspect of it is important. Yes, and that is the difficult part, is weighing.

You know, from that view, you just said, you are correct. And then from the, you know, from the competitive standpoint, which is a huge part of this too. Right. It's one of those things where there is so many things that go into what is the best product. And we're just, you know, we've had this, we've gone on the same product for so long that's like, okay, maybe the same product, you know, maybe it needs some tweaking. And when you open the box of tweaking,

it's not a tweaking. It feels like you're literally rebuilding an entire car from scratch and you're simply deciding a field size. It is insane. The stakeholder, there's so many, like you're not talking about this in the program too, like the stakeholder interest in golf. Like it's every decision that happens,

there's a counter effect to it, right? And I think I would argue that the prioritization of some of these counter effects has been too skewed towards the middle to lower tier guys in the past, right? If it's, you know, adding more and more events isn't necessarily better for the top guys, you know? A lot of different examples I could cite there, but basically to say like, hey, we can all of a sudden say we don't want the fall series and it just goes away like that, right? Because FedEx signs up when they introduce the package they sign up for an enormous package full of

tournaments that are of close to or equal value for all of them, right? So now it was a big selling more of FedEx. Huge selling point and huge, huge, huge money. Like FedExCut bonus money is enormous. Right. And that's where you have to, that's where it gets these, these decisions that everyone has are these ideas that everyone has that are so surface level that it might sound good on the surface. But you, I love saying this unpacking. You can tell you're a listener. You can unpack it. And then you see like, okay, that might have worked here, but what about the other seven things that didn't work? And that's like one of the things like, yeah, the tour needs to move faster, but they also are moving carefully. Like they, they are trying to do that to make sure that it is not negatively affecting something more

than it's positively affecting something. And that is the very simplest way of this whole process that you look at and that we can dive into just one simple topic in the world of golf about field size. And we could sit here and talk for three hours about what's right and what's wrong. And then imagine running a tour about all this stuff about different formats and different this and different that. It's so much to think about that. It's, thank God we got Jason Gourald board. We to think about that. It's, thank God we got Jason Goralboard.

We can talk about that. But I will say also on this front, sympathize, empathize, not the right word, but I'm gonna use it anyways, where I understand a teeny tiny bit of guys leaving for live is like looking at the changes they would like to have made and being like, oh, it's too complicated. That's never gonna happen.

Right? Yes, it's so true. It's like, I. Right, that, yes, it's so true. It's like, I hate the guys, they're just like, all I wanna do is just play golf and not worry about it. Like, fine, great. But there's people that all they're doing is worrying about it for you.

And you need to be thankful for those people, because if not, then you would not be able to play for the money you play for. And so when guys say to me, all I wanna do is play golf and I'll let the rest take care of itself, they're simply saying, all I wanna do is play golf, and I'll let the rest take care of itself, they're simply saying, all I wanna do is play golf,

and I wanna, whatever pays me the most, I'll do. And that's probably why they went. And you're right, like, you don't, if you don't ask the questions and see what's best for everyone in this and that, then yeah, it might be good for you right now. And it's very easy to make that decision as a human, to say, this is what's best for me right now. But does it entail 5 10 15 years down the road for me my future and let alone

Everyone else's future in the game of golf and the people that are going to come up in the game of golf later No one can really know have those answers But if you're the guy that simply says I just want to play golf and like I don't really care I just and you know, I'm saying that's 50 to 60, 70% of the tour potentially. That's what the tour is trying to do, and so that you just can do that. What is the hiring of Jason Gore-Dew? It gives people a... People meeting players. Everybody people people as in agents as in sponsors as in players coaches. I mean he's he is gonna have a hard job. I mean

he needs four cell phones because two are gonna melt each day of how many people are gonna call them because people A and when I mean a I mean a1a respect his opinion that is the most important thing They respect his opinion we use on tour on the corn fairy tour They really respect his opinion after what he did to us.. J and they have that same expectation for him as a tour. Now, that's a high bar for Jason. Now, there's, you know, like he is, he is, he has a very tough job and a very high bar because he's only, because he's set his bar that high.

But I truly believe that he can do that because when I have a problem and I can call Jason and talk to him about it, I know that he understands my problem a lot more than Someone else in the executive office that hasn't been in my shoes. That is that is a one a simplistic respect trust You know, whatever you want to call it that that means a lot to a player He feels what you feel or he felt what you feel at the moment that is the biggest thing. And he has been in the corporate world. He has had to relay those feelings

and those concerns of a player to the people that make the decisions in the course and the term that's blah blah. And he's done a very, very, very good job at that. If he can continue to do that at the PGA tour, everyone wins. And that's gonna take a lot of pressure off the guys in the executive office of the tour to actually do their job at hand and not try to make everyone feel good.

That is a big step for the tour. That's a glowing endorsement. It is. Which is kind of like a, you know, you look back at it like, well, yeah, why aren't there more like former tour players working at the tour? Like that is that's that's the biggest question. Yeah. What why not?

Well, you know, the tour, I think, had that same question. That's why the higher Jason Gorgon. Yeah. Looking at other announcements, you know, that came today, you know, we have the earnings assurance program fully exempt members are guaranteed a $500,000 league minimum. Uh, at the end of the season, the program will fund any gap between actual comprehensive earnings and the $500,000 minimum for each fully exempt member who participates in at least 15 events and then

rookies and other players earning their way back on the PGA tour of the option to receive an upfront payment. What's your reaction to that? It's an optics play because it doesn't, like Jay said, it only costs like $2,000,000 a year. Right. Now, it's an optics play for, meaning like the amount of guys that have earnings that are less than 500,000 that you'll need to net up

would net out to between $2,000,000,000 a year. Correct. And it's a huge financial play for the guys that it matters without costing a tour very much money. So that's the beauty of it. It's a mental, you're freed up a little bit more. Yeah, like, hey, I'm not gonna lose money this year and it's not gonna cost the tour much

because the play 15 was fine, but they paid everybody. They're still kind of paying everybody in this one because if you don't make it, it doesn't matter how you do, you're gonna get that money. So they're achieving the same thing in a much more efficient, effective way, period. Because it might actually,

I don't know how much to play 15 costum. It was only like 15 million bucks. Right, so they're saving $13 million and making a bigger impact. Yeah. Does play 15 go on a way then? I don't know that, whether that's a question for a different day.

But yeah, I don't know. Okay. And maybe I should know. Yeah. Maybe I should, but I don't. A lot's happening, a lot's changing very quickly. So the point is like they're spending, I don't. A lot's happening, lots changing very quickly. So the point is, they're spending, I don't know if it's going away.

We need to put that in huge airquakes. But if you, yeah, but a $50,000 check for a guy that's finishing atop 125, is if you do the math it's like a it's a How much how much percent how much if like they're averaging like 1.3 1.2 million dollars? What's what's 50 grand that I'm not I mean well? I mean so a hundred thousand would be 10% of a million So be 5% it's like 3% yes 3% yeah, okay? So if you keep your job It's less than three percent.

And the guys that keep going up and up and just percentage goes down and down and down. It doesn't make, it doesn't really change, like they can spend that $15 million in a much more effective way than changing the guys that keep their cards earnings by less than, you know, on average, let's call it one and a half percent, where

the guys that are coming off the corn fairy tour that actually, you know, have been grinding their face off on dollars that may or may not be there from sponsors or from people that they owe money back to, that if you get on the tour, hey guys, no matter what, you're making 500 and we're spending way less money doing that. Well, and the fact that the rookie part, getting that money up front seems to be really helpful and nice. And it seems to be very worthwhile. And again, these are advances on earnings.

So it's not, you know, it's not in addition to earnings, you're earning against it, but it does seem to make sense. And it seemed like, yeah, the play 15 thing was, I would, as I interpreted it, it was like, that came out when the PIP came out and it was a way to satisfy the rest of the membership that wasn't getting PIP money to say, hey, here's a little something for you, but it did not seem to be very consequential.

And this seems a lot more consequential. So I think it would make sense if the play 15 thing did go away. Next up, non-exempt members. So basically the previous category was fully exempt members are getting, you know, the guaranteed $500,000 minimum for non-exempt members. That's 126 to 150 category and below will have access to a new travel stipend program providing $5,000 for every miscut to assist with travel

costs and other tournament-related expenses. We have thoughts on that. I think that is, I don't wanna say long overdue, I'm saying it's that's what the major started to do recently. And the tour is now starting to do it. And you know, you can say a lot of things about this, but where we go now and the crowds at the tour brings, and you know, hotel prices go up, and then caddy prices are going up,

and you know, airline prices are through the roof. I mean, it is expensive to play in a single two-way. And if you're a sponsor exemption or you're a Monday qualifier, like that is at least five grand right off the top, just to participate. Oh yeah, not the next time. So the two of us really charge you an entry fee,

but they charge you, you have a lot of external costs that go there. And it's not for the guys that are eligible for the 500 because the tour is practically doing that form already. If not more than that, because if you play 20 events a year times five, like, you know, they're giving you more than that. These are for the people that are not exempt on tour. That have either a sponsor exemption,

got in off of past champion status, Monday qualified, that is, I think that takes a lot of weight, stress, what are you gonna call it? Just to the point where we're like, look, I earned this right into the tour and even sponsor exemptions in a way earned the right around about way.

You can obviously debate that, but the point is like, you're playing in a PGA Tour event. You're playing in the major leagues. You are not going to lose money this week. And then the other guys, on the 500,000, aren't going to move lose money this week. So now it's pretty much the tours like just risen the floor and it hasn't cost them very much at all. Which is huge to me. Like, they found it took them this long to find very innovative ways to raise the floor

for all the PGA2 repliers and not cost them that much money. That is, I mean, applaud to the people there. That's a very strong, balanced way to do it. Editors note here, yes, the Erning Assurance Program will replace the play 15 program as does the travel stipend program. This one starting in 2021-22 qualifying for the season and tour championship will provide a two year PGA tour exemption. This is not in addition to a winner's exemption, but with impact to player who doesn't have any additional status in the second year following his qualification for the tour championship.

How many guys would do anticipate this, you know, either historically, how how many guys with this have impacted, how many guys you see it impacting going forward seems like it kind of a big deal, but it doesn't seem to get also would affect that many guys. It's a big deal for the players themselves. It's not a big deal in the actuality of the exemption. Because I think it's only happened one player in the history has lost his card after being in the Tour Championship. So it, I think it's about six or seven guys on average

in historical speaking, you know, take COVID in 2021 out when there was like double wrap around and all that stuff. It's on average like six to eight guys a year, make the tour championship that don't win. More than that amount of people win on the PGA tour and don't make the tour championship. So by no means is this devaluing a win. And that is the biggest thing to me is like, you know, there's guys that have won on tour earned a two year exemption, let alone not made a two year championship,

not make the BNW, but not even make the 125 playoffs. Okay, so if only one guy in history has ever lost his card after making two year championship, and more than that guys, like, infinity more guys have not made it to the two year championship, and when he get a two year exemption, it is applauding to

those guys that made the tour championship get it to your exemption. They won't need it, it won't matter, it only have affected one person, but that's, you know, that is the difference. And then the Maui thing is huge. Well, just going to say to that is, if you make the tour championship without having one, you've had a very good season, a very consistent season, right? You've played a lot of really good golf and I just think that that's where you've played great in the playoffs Which is the biggest strongest field of the year? Yeah, and then yeah, you're saying to turnover now that the if you make the torch championship You qualify for the tournament champions. They made you to rename that one, I believe But that seems like a decently big deal for expanding that field

It's good for the what we talked about earlier with the world ranking models. When you get six to eight more guys that have played that good all year, the world ranking is very high, very high. And that will only make the world ranking field, I guess the points awarded in the field higher. Justin Thomas said this on the pod, and we know we posted like a real of it on Instagram. And it's still in the field higher. Justin Thomas said this on the pod, and we know we posted like a real

of it on Instagram and like is still in the, it is still like in the algorithm driving thousands of comments of like people not agreeing with, I would, I would define it as understanding when he says, like they're not suing the tour, they're suing me, like in a member run organization, they are suing you directly. You're not named in the lawsuit technically, yes.

But like the PGA tour is made up of its members. Like that's what the suing is. And I really struggle with the concept of, especially in this play space of millions of millions of dollars of like suing my buddies. Like if I left the tour, the PGA tour, and again, I'm saying I, not as a tour member, but like I just can't picture like leaving

and like attempting to screw over my buddies that, you know, it's not like- Those guys don't see that. They don't see it that way. That's the difference. Those guys that live don't feel like they're doing that way. We at the tour feel like they're doing that. And they're two different views of thought.

But how can they not see it that way? Buddy, I don't know the answer, okay? But like, they look at us like But how can they not see it that way? Buddy, I don't know the answer, okay? But like, they look at us like how can we not see it their way and we look at them as how, you know, they don't see it our way. So like we can sit here on our side of the fence and say they're suing me, they're suing our bodies. They don't see that.

They say they're suing the tour for corruption and they're suing the tour for mistreatment. They're suing the tour for unfairness and that they think that they're doing us favor for that. I'm serious. No, yeah. But if you keep pulling the string and this should take 30 seconds to explain to them, it's like, if you can play anywhere at any time The value overall the PGA tour goes way down like all of this unity getting back together and playing all these events together To drive the marketing value is what's gonna drive the the value of the PGA tour up Anyone that can go anywhere and pick off little events here and there and play anywhere all over the world is going to greatly

Decrease the value of the the marketing ability of the PGA tour. Sponsors aren't signing up for that if they, if you know, blah, blah, is playing five events a year on that tour. Right. And they want to just play the big ones. They don't want to play those. So they would say that we're actually helping tour because you get you know, Bryson, Dustin, Phil, and all these guys to play the big tournaments and they think that's a positive. Yeah. I mean, I'm serious. Yeah. So like, I can look at it personally and be very upset.

I can be very mad and I can bash them all I want. Or I look at them in their shoes and try to somehow fathom what they see and understand their point of view. Now, again, I disagree with it, but I'm telling you, it is, they wouldn't do it if they felt that way. They are suing the tour out of some information that they have, that they have been unfairly treated and they have been unfairly compensated

and is full of corruption. And so they honestly think that they're doing the right thing. They do. And that is the miscommunication. Because we can sit here and we can say they're wrong. They can sit there and they say they're wrong. And you just, you have this constant, we're right, you're wrong, we're right, you're wrong argument.

And I don't think we're ever going to resolve that. But I'm just telling you from their point of view, that's how they see that. Do you get a sense, either with these, what has happened in the last couple of weeks, or just based on what you know, I mean, we know, we know a few of the names are going to leave here after the tour championship, but do you get a sense that the momentum is screeching to a halt, slowing down as far as the floodgates of people leaving the PGA tour. I will always resort to what Brooks said as they will, if it's starting to slow down in the room and they'll just bring more

money back. And that's what they've done every single time. So instill that mentality that they have stops, we will fight this battle forever. It's seriously. Don't call it. Like the tour can announce these, these tours can announce these things today and it was like, yeah, we got some of them in them. And then tomorrow, the other tour can say, we're gonna announce a hundred,

we're gonna have to $200 million popularity contest at the live tour. Now, the pit program's not a popularity contest. That was what they would call it, and negatively affected tour. Sure. I was putting words in their mouth. Propaganda.

Right. That's what they could say. So then what? Then they have all this momentum and the more guys go over there. So, yeah. This battle of the tour momentum, live momentum, it's just all about when are they going to stop investing more money than

they already are? That is when this battle stops because it's very clear that, you know, the tour does not want to have negotiations with these guys. Very clear. It's way past that. Right. And we are in NFL money territory right now. The PGA Tourist. PGA Tourist and the Lift Tour, both. Yeah. Like if you start comparing contracts in the NFL and the PGA Tour right now,

it live contracts and these Pit Program FedEx Cup bonuses and then they're off the course money, we're getting way in the stratosphere. And eventually we're gonna run out of air. One of the And eventually we're gonna run out of air. One of the two of us are gonna run out of air. Okay, and it's whoever's gonna run out first. I don't like that for the PGA tour. I don't either, but it's true.

Yeah. And you know it's true, but I don't think that if we get that high, it doesn't matter who wins that battle. The person that survives is actually gonna be the one that falls because you cannot recoup that amount of sponsor money with paying that much money on either model, because you look at how big the NFL is and the NBA and MLB in their contracts versus our contracts and the total revenue dollars going into it. We're starting to eclipse that.

So if the tour keeps trying to outrace them and then we start trying to borrow money and doing this and that, it doesn't matter that we win that battle, we will eventually lose sponsor value. And if we keep driving them up to where they keep having to do this money, they might be able to afford it, but if they don't get the sponsor values, they know. Well, you know, that's where the irrational actor stuff comes in though of like the sponsor values to them aren't This like they're the value that league is is different to the investment fund Then it's the immediate returns aren't required right necessarily, but that's what's scary, right?

But it's about the arms race like you're gonna lose that arms race You will and the tour knows that but like eventually like when when do we hit the ceiling the ceiling? You know when do we hit space where there's no gravity no oxygen and we're all just floating around it. It can read. You know what I mean? Oh 100%. I guess I where I was coming from on that was all the players getting in a room together looking

each other in the eye and and like affirming their commitment to it. Look, I know blood packs don't exist. And this is a, you know, this has happened several times over the last several months of guys saying they're committed and then leaving. But this one felt like a little bit like drawing a line in the sand here. I think like it'd be really, really, like what Brooks did was super duplicitous. It'd be really duplicitous to be a part of the changes,

get the changes put into policy, and then also go leave. That, to me, seems like. To you, in your feelings. But not to necessarily, but you wouldn't feel that way. I feel the same way you feel, but we're not talking about your and I's feelings. We're talking about the golf world as a whole.

Okay, you're right. Sitting in that meeting, it sounds great, and they're all excited, who raw. But if someone walks in there and say, hey man, you know, your number was 50. It's 250,000. Like, I don't care. Like, you and I might still say no.

I know a lot of people would still say no. They would say no to a billion. If Tiger says no to 800, I'm saying no to 800, that's my rule. That guy made more money for me than I could make for myself in a way. Okay, now not directly, but like what he did for the tour and his purses and his sponsorship values

and the growth of the game is so much more than anything I could ever do that, that, you know, if he's turning down that and he thinks it's that bad of an idea, I think it is too. Now, we're not going to unpack that. But that's my point is to some guys, they don't feel that way, they don't care, they don't think that way, they just think about how it affects them in this moment in time. And there's people in that room that if their number was 50 or their number was 75, their

number was 100 and it goes to 250 or 300, they really don't give a shit what will happen in that meeting. Yeah, it's fair. I, my counter to that was gonna be, and now I don't wanna say it, was gonna be like, if you haven't gone yet, then you probably are not likely to go at this point, but to your point, you're saying them,

if the number goes four X, then it's a different decision. That's exactly what Brooks said. And he was the only person that was right, is like, do you think that it's lost him in him? Yeah, it's lost him in him, but they'll just wait until they meet somebody's number and then people will go anyway. And people, there's people that have numbers, and then people that don lost them in? Yeah, it's lost them in them, but they'll just wait until they meet somebody's number than people will go anyway. And people, there's people that have numbers and people that don't have numbers.

That's not what we're talking about. It's the talking about they have, they can go as long as they want. They can, you know, they can hit the ceiling. They don't have as the ceiling as the tour has. And then, you know, it's up to them. That's out of our control. I do think though, there is also something something and I hate to be this, you know What I don't know what the word is about it very almost fairy tale like but I at a certain point

Live is buying your professional golf career like you're you're not gonna exist in the same profession They don't think that the players that go don't think that Okay, you think that they don't think that I can can see, but I think the guys that are sticking around for the PGA tour, they know they can make more money elsewhere. There is some value to their professional golf competitive aspirations that is keeping them there. Now, you could still get priced out of that eventually, but the money's not equal.

Yeah, a lot of these dudes could make more money over at live, but they're at the PGA tour for a reason. And I think that competitive golf aspect is a factor in that to varying degrees for those top players. So there's players that feel that way and that's why they're still in tour. Yes.

The players that leave, they don't believe that. They believe that they're gonna continue to have great tournaments and hopefully play the majors and be able to play the tour or whatever. Like they, they don't think that way. So like, yes, you and I think that way, but the guys that go don't. So like, we're talking about two completely different things here. Well, but I would say like, like, Ram, what, Ram said in the press

conference at the US open and what Max has said about like, look, I've dreamed about this, this, this, and this. And that's like what my competitive aspirations are. That's why they're on the tour. Right. that's what I'm saying though. That's, I'm saying like the dudes that have stayed this long to this point. So you think we've passed that threshold? I'm theorizing that you know, I'm very tell that we've faster. The dudes that have stayed, whatever their decision matrix, there is no number for the guys that are still left.

It is, I'm not saying there's no number. I'm saying that in the decision matrix, the dudes that are still left. It is, I'm not saying there's no number. I'm saying that in the decision matrix, the dudes that are left, their competitive golf aspirations are higher than the dudes that have left. That would be my theory. There's something holding you to wanting to stay in that ecosystem. And if you look at the list of top players, it's not comparable. The PGA Tour has the most talent by far. Patrick Reed wanting a live versus PGA tour cup

of some kind, you don't want that smoke. Like you do not want it. Like it's not the same at the top, not even close. Oh, yeah. And he's like, you might be looking at it from an entertainment value. Whoa. Now we're back in sports.

Now we're back in entertainment. What is the driving factor? We're back in square wood. So, but I understand what you're saying, and I understand that that's your hope, is that the guys that are still here have bigger reasons to stay than the amount of the money that they could make.

Now, I can personally say that's true for me, and we could say that potentially for Max, I don't wanna speak for really anyone else, but if there are guys left, that they just haven't hit their number yet, then they could still go. Still can. And it's 100%.

And that's the, that's what you have to put in the context here, is that no matter what the tour says or does, if they eventually hit a quote unquote number, then that's guys gone. And they will leave under the assumption, you know, I guess under the 2024 assumption that they might be able to continue to do competitively do both. And you also have to remember that if those guys want to go to 72-hole tournaments and

cuts, they can do it tomorrow. They may have to change the name of the tour, but yeah, they can get it. But we're fighting a battle that can morph into something completely different the next day. So like we poke holes in this and then they can, they can plug them and then go somewhere else. So, you know, as much as I think that this battle can no matter what we say

on the surface level, this battle will continue until we get in the stratosphere of the tour has stretched every inch of the imagination in terms of dollar values. The sponsors are picking up as much as they can and are much as they're willing to do in their budget and they're operating marketing budget, advertising budget, that we're, we've hit the ceiling. And these guys go pass that ceiling, okay?

If that's the case, then where, then, then, yeah, what happens? What happens, right? It's long ways to go. Long ways to go, because we're gonna lose the money battle, no matter what, it's just if we lose the in game of recouping by sponsors, because like like it might take them 30 years to recoup the sponsors if they bankrupt tour. But if they're willing to stay in it for 30

years, what happens? Well, I'd also say like back to what we talked about earlier with, you know, basically what I was trying to get at with if I'm a lower tiered tour player, what, what am I liking about this is like the alternative to this like the top guys getting together and Proposing this and coming up with a new plan the alternative is not again falling back on like okay Well, we'll just do it how we always did it the alternatives like okay We're gonna go find another place to play like what we want to do is not possible on this tour We're gonna find another place to play. I don't know if that's live

I don't know if that's start their own tour. And I'm not saying that they're threatening this in some way. I'm saying for those guys, if I'm a part of that decision and I we all agreed this is what we want and we're the ones bringing the value and the tour won't do that. Why the hell would you stay? Like I would defend any decision to break away after that. Yes, that is a huge part of it. And like we said earlier, the lower tier guys are playing. They're simply officially acknowledging that some events are more important than the

others, which we've all known for quite some time. We all have known, but the tour has never, never said that verbatim. They might have said it in like a 10% raise in FedEx cup points or an elevated event. You know, like a little, there's a 10, there's $2 million more in person. Like they've tried to like, they've tried to do it. They've the tourists tried to do it for a while without officially saying it. And the players had to say to themselves and go the tour and say, you need to officially say this because it's better for entertainment.

Like the tour was trying to make their sponsors happy, which you can't blame them. Got to do. Okay. But they were, I think the players realized that they were sacrificing some entertainment value by trying to make the, all of the sponsors happy. And they're fit and they're just officially pointing it out now. Instead of silently pointing it out, they're officially pointing it out now. Instead of silently pointing it out, they're officially pointing it out now.

And again, that doesn't change a little bit here, guys. It's actually better because if they do play well, they get in the huge events. And if they play exactly how they've been playing, their first size is still exactly the same. If not more. So win win. Yes.

And I agree. And listen, I think it's still up for grabs in terms of, this is a totally different conversation. Like the entertainment aspect of the television product has to change for all of this to work. Right. And in the biggest thing that I think moving forward, the two biggest things moving forward that are on, this is a very, I want to make this very clear.

This is an undetermined, you know, that what we're about to talk about is has not been decided on. And it's field size and field size you look at limited field Versus full field versus the cut and versus world ranking points and either Structure and the other is FedEx cups for the FedEx cup points for those tournaments because if you look at You know when in RSM or when in 3M or when in Detroit, you know, whatever you look at all these tournaments back and forth And you look at the how many world ranking points you're rewarded and it's anywhere from like 24 to like 40-ish

and then you look at the Scottish open and it was almost 80. So the world ranking is officially telling you, it's two to three times harder to win the Scottish open but the FedEx Cup points are telling you it's exactly the same. Now that was simply to make all the sponsors think that they're an equal playing ground which I don't disagree with. However, in peacetime.

Yeah, in now when the players realize that the best products is when we're all playing against each other, the FedEx Cup points elevated, the person's elevated will actually be an incentive for those guys to go there and then all play together without having to get into a room. those guys to go there and then all play together without having to get into a room. The tour thought about that by raising the person, you know, Bay Hill, 12 million memorial, 10, 550, like, hey man, we're going to like hopefully this helps get you all there without announcing it to the world. Now they're just saying, hey, we all want you here. Players are going to be here. The next components might be higher.

Persons definitely will be higher and we'll figure out the field size according to world ranking and best entertainment product, period. That is the best. I think it's where we started and it could be where we finished depending on if you have anything else to get off your chest. Well, let's, we got, we got a lot of cool golf stuff that we could talk about outside of, you know, what's on TV because people are getting so overwhelmed. I have to, I have to. I have to say this.

And maybe you can put this on the little front of like when you tweet and like the little Justin thing, is that even people like me are getting a lot of their golf news off of Twitter. And that's coming from somebody, you know, again, I've only been in one pack of me, so don't hold that against me. You know, are getting a lot of their golf news off Twitter

from your agent, you know, trying to get in touch with the player relations guys and it's in it's a dangerous dangerous cycle and It is something that the whole we go back to the you know originally the point of the secrecy the meeting was so that didn't happen Period they wanted to come from J's mouth on national television. So it was very cut and dry and clear You know that is something that in this whole process has been has driven a, I don't want to say driven a wedge into players, but it's made some players be very curious of the tours, quote unquote, transparency.

You know, and it's because of all the media and how many people are covering it and talking about it, because it's such a big story. This is not a complaint that everybody's talking about. It is true. like we should. It is the biggest story in the game, period. And I think part of the reason tour hire Jason Gore is to curb some of that on the player standpoint. They have someone call that they trust

that has been in their shoes, that can understand their situation and explain it in a player tour, as Jason calls it, in tour language. So that I don't feel like I'm finding all my information from Gofft Igest, Goff Channel, knowing up, all these people, there's nothing wrong with that. But a lot of times, the stories might vary

and I might get confused and I might make a slip up like McKinsey Hughes, which is just a green take. Like he just doesn't know all the information. And that's the problem. which is just a green take. Like he just doesn't know all the information. And that's the problem. If the players that own this tour are finding all the information about our tour from more sources than the tour, that's not necessarily the tour's fault,

it's just the math, how big and massive in gigantic the situation is, period. Yeah. And that is the whole thing is like in this process, you learn, you, you, you try to filter out what's right and wrong. You want to filter out what's beneficial for you and want to hate what's not beneficial for you. And then you want to point it out, then you tweet it.

And then somebody says this and somebody says that. I mean, there's two. Or players are tweeting stuff that you read and you're like, is that true? Is that not true? There are two players, so it must be true, but it's not true. You know, and it's like, yeah, it's amazing.

Well, in general, people are way too comfortable having an opinion on something that they don't have even remotely all the facts on. Like, you could be, oh, this just sounds like a WGC retread. I hate it. Well, it's like, okay, yeah, that's fine. You might hate this. I might hate this for all I know.

But again, think of what's the alternative? There is not an alternative here that's simple, easy, that makes sense. Simple, easy, easy to make a start. It is everything is so huge. We are dealing professional golfers who own this to our dealing with decisions and ideas and things that are so huge that we've never had to deal with before.

And we're the ones supposedly taking, you know, we're the ones supposedly in control. So again, that's, it's the magnitude of the situation is huge. And at the end of the day, we can talk about all these different things and all these conspiracies and this and that and Somebody said this and that person if it wasn't for this it wouldn't be for that At the end of the day what's come out of this last meeting and what Jay has said is the top players A want to play against each other and be need to play against each other because it's better entertainment product That is it. Yep. We don't need to break it down

any more than that. And then everything after that is secondary to that. Yes. Both, not only that, all boats will rise in this. And if it's executed properly, which now it's in the Taurus hands, like it is your job to execute on this. Like it is not the players job to come up with every single detail of all this qualification. It's our job to shoot the low score. Exactly. And so now it gets into that ecosystem and what has gotten the tour into this problem from the get go is like trying to prioritize the interests of, and I'm not gonna do it.

And well, insert sponsor here. Well, what about this event? They kind of get screwed there. It's like, you're thinking about it all backwards. You're thinking about it all backwards. Like whoever is sponsoring a big event. Backwards is a strong word. They're thinking about it all backwards. You think about it all backwards. Like whoever is sponsoring a big event backwards is a strong word. They're thinking about it for everyone's sake. And unfortunately everyone's sake isn't the best stake in a time like this. But I mean backwards in terms of if you let just pick I'm not going

to say a name of pick the bottom sponsor on the PGA tour and like say all right you're not going to deliver enough value to them like no think about this. Think about the top sponsor. You're not delivering enough value to them. The one that's providing the bigger paycheck and signing up for the bigger event, you're not providing enough value for them. Think of it as that view. Everyone equally. Yeah. Okay.

Everyone, so they're not choosing a bottom over a top. They're trying to put them all on the same level, which has spread everything to thin. To thin, and now they're trying to make it a little bit more solid, officially, like officially acknowledging that they need to make it more solid in certain places. And again, back to what Mav and Harmon and a lot of people have talked about and they even sort of vaguely mentioned in the press conference.

Again, this is not determined yet, but how neat would it be if the other ones rotated and those sponsors that we talked about that they were trying to please, actually, they please more while still pleasing the better entertainment product. Like, this could be really cool. I think this is incredibly informative, helpful, and I want to know, if, is there anything else like either ourselves, media in general, anything the public you think are getting wrong about it, don't understand about this, that we haven't talked about to this point, or just any considerations that are like, hey, what you got to understand about this, like, I understand, you know,

what was super helpful, you know, it's super helpful to have people involved, that have been involved with the PAC or that are on the board in that meeting to say, like, hey, here's what we can do, here's, you know, blah, blah, blah, how that process has worked, I don't know if that's a, it's a completely way of asking it. Yeah, I mean, if you're asking what, if you're, the simple question is, if you're asking what the media can do better, is that, is that, or like, yeah, no,

basically, yeah, what are people missing? Okay, people in general, not both media and people. It might be two separate answers. You know, I would say that, you know, in a, you know, it's hard, you know, it's really hard to say that in a short one sentence. But a couple things that come out is, again, we're all on the PGA tour because we were really good at golf, not because we made these creative, intuitive,

advancements to a global corporation and how that it should be run. It's not your job. It's not our job. Our job is to make the last score. But at the same time, all those same people want to say, it should be run. It's not your job. It's not our job. Our job is to make the low score, but at the same time, all those same people want to say, it's my tour and we make the decisions. So that's a careful line even us players need to walk. Because we can talk to everybody we want

and try to understand all the information. And then if it goes back, all the weight goes back on us. And then we try to make these calls, and they're not us. And then, you know, we try to make these calls and they're not the right calls when we're not necessarily educated to make those calls is a tough line. Okay, so that's coming from us, which is why I think Jason was a great hire

because he can help that transition. He's been in the corporate world and he's been in our world. He's done great at both. And so hopefully he can do great. It's tour, I believe in him personally that could help that, right? You know, the other thing is, is that, you know, we talked about this too. And again, coming from a tour player, like

podcaster fantastic for us, because we can get our whole point across and it's not paraphrased. That is a big thing, because I think the kids you use might have been paraphrased in that article, right? They keep, you know, I've been paraphrasing articles before that take out a lot of very important things that we're trying to come across. But that's just how media work. You want an instant, one quote, read it on Twitter, go to the next one. And we got to be really careful with taking that as, taking that as gospel, as I think this is the most important thing.

And Colt knows was the perfect person to say, you know, I'm Ryder Cup captain and then it went off, right? Which was extremely believable. I will put that on hand. Right. But you know, and he said, if it's on Twitter, it's true. Yeah. Okay. Again, we're in such a, you know, the magnitude of the situation

is so big that anyone little tweet can change somebody's point of view so much and people anchor around the first thing they hear. Yes, and you hear all these talking points from both sides of the argument in this and that and like they're just talking points are one sentence that don't scratch everything. And you and I could sit here for another seven hours and still not even get close to going on with it. I'm sitting here talking about a 501c corporation. Are you kidding me? I went to business school and I don't even know what that means.

I started a foundation on a 501c3 and I barely know what that means. I'm supposed to sit here as a player owner and say, this is my tour. I don't even know what a 501c6 means. So do this. Like that's not okay. Yeah. To your point too of, you know, individual nature of what has, oh, professional golf has always been,

was how to conversation, I might have even said this to you. Like, your golf, starting from scratch here, your golf is worth zero to the world without a competitive golf landscape. You could be the best golfer in the world and no one would ever know it. You can't market that in any way, unless you can show that you can beat other players. So

that's an extreme example. But that's to say, like PGA tour and tours around the world are where value is derived for your ability to play golf for money. Your ability to beat other players is what makes all that work. And how do you guys as tour players balance the incredible individual nature that comes with golf, the selfishness that's required to be an individual competitor in golf with how do you as a group work together to provide the most value overall as a tour seems to be one of the big turning points of this whole thing. And it feels like things are shifting on that front specifically and that feels pretty momentous as a golf fan. Oh, yes. It is huge and it's fantastic in that only thing

that that maybe think about was imagine if we had Mo Norman on the PGA tour full time back in the day. Talk about the best golf from the world that might have, you know, that, like, that guy is a living legend in the golf, super clicky golf world. But like the average golf fan doesn't know anymore. Imagine if he played in the majors and on the PGA tour and did all these things.

Now, you know, the other reasons why he didn't. But like, that's the perfect, it's not a far-fetched example because it's happened in the history of the game. Like, he could have been a jack Nicholas and Arnold Palmer and we would have been talking about him as he was like the most marketable, great sky ever. And because in a lot of people's eyes he was potentially the best ball striker to ever Hold a club in his hands. So to your point that is exactly what we need to do because if all the players play in the best place in the world They're showcasing each other They're competing against each other and the world sees it and they can they can a pick a pick a player that they enjoy

They can root for a player sponsors can you know compensate them for that on their hats and their shirts and get value from it just across the board. No, Norman, though, like let's go. I know. I need to do a deep dive on it. That's all my list for Q4. We're going to. But you're, but that comment made me think about that because he was a perfect example

that if he played in all the majors and all the two of people would really know how great he was. And they didn't because he didn't. So it's, that's a perfect example. All right, you said you didn't wanna go two hours, we're an hour and a half, is there really no- Oh, we got 30 minutes. You said you didn't wanna go to 29.30.

Okay, 29.30. Anything else you're burdening on? Be fair that I said, I had a skewed, misinterpretation of entertainment value of why I said two hours. Yeah, I said people don't listen to our podcast. And I was wrong. So if I come on your podcast,

we're only gonna do 30 minutes so we make sure everybody hears it. That's like what I could tweet on Twitter and then people anchored to that and it's completely wrong. So you clear that up, so I'm happy to go as long as we need to go. Well, I mean, yeah, I don't, it's a podcast expert.

Well, listen, I'm not either, but no, it's, I don't know, we've been trending longer and longer with these things and we get a lot of messages from people like, yeah, just keep going, keep going, I got commute time. But I didn't really even set an agenda for this meeting. I'm not gonna lie,

I had a couple questions listed in here and we covered, we really covered them all, but I figured it was just gonna be a flowing conversation and reaction to everything. But it's like, I don't know how to say it. It's like, I feel like I'm kind of rooting, I feel like I'm rooting for the PGA tour in this, which is ironic considering where our allegiances have lied over the years and how we've struggled a lot

with the entertainment value, but I guess I just see now some hope for it. And I don't know, I don't know if that's, I think that's a good place to wrap unless you have anything else that you're dying to get out. No, I mean, I've always felt that way, though. Like, I've always rooted for the tour. I've always rooted for the PG tour,

for a multitude of reasons. And so I feel like I now can root for the tour as a player, as you know, someone that the players are realizing they have more power now, so you feel like you can root, you actually can have a say in like the tour listens and then Jason Gore really listens and then all these things happen. It's just, it feels comforting as a tour member. And I would challenge every tour member that doesn't have that same sort of feeling to call not only Jason Gore,

but the other guys. And, of course, the guys on the other side of the fence say that it's this, it's that, it's, you know, we're doing you guys a favor and it's a, you know, these guys are taking advantage if you ball the ball. Like, fine. I've tried to get as much, like Roy said, you know, uninformed decision. I've tried to get as much information as I can through that. Now, you know,

I'm, again, I'm getting it from the tour. So of course, you know, as you could say, well, it's tour bias or I played with Jay in the 18 T twice. So like, of course, your boys, you know, like what, I don't care. You have the right to choose what you want to do and what you want to root for. I root for the Georgia Bulldogs because I went to Georgia. I root for the PGA tour because I'm on the PGA tour. Yeah. Right? It's that simple. It's also a big takeaway from you know this is you guys are lucky that Rory is at the exact phase of his career that he's at now. A younger Rory might not have taken as much of a leadership role. Do you not remember the time he says I'm not trying to grow the

Graham and trying to win championships? Yeah. I mean, come on, dude. Talk about it, 180. Like, growing the game only helps you make more when you win championships. Because the more people we have engulfed, the more eyes we have on it, the more sponsorships, the more entertainment value,

the more viewers, the more money, the more championships period. So like, he's starting to get it. Now, I'm the same way. If you talk to me about this conversation before, you know, before I talked to Rory, before I'd become close with a lot of guys at the tour and try to understand the situation,

I'm still very, very, very green in this whole grand scheme of things. And I feel like I'm more invested than most. And that's the scary part. It's like the tour players have the power, but we, I mean mean we would have to be in Pontavitra and sit in all the meetings for years to even remotely understand the whole grand scheme of things. And as long as the tour is not taking advantage of us because of that which in my perspective and I don't agree I don't think they are because that would

be bad for their business. The other guys, that's what they believe. Right. That's what they've been told. That's what they've been told and they believe that. And that's where, that is why we have this divide and have this lawsuit. And it's not to say that PJ Tours done a perfect job and all this either. It's not. And you know, there's been, yeah, there's things that have could have been changed many,

many years ago to, I say, hold off this threat, but real in reality This you couldn't have come to the threat the threat was Phil Using it as leverage against the tour instead of taking it to the tour and And doing you know, and if Phil comes out and says I tried to do that then I'll be wrong, right? But like I can but they didn't have meeting, you know, looking back, you know, we're speculating and I hate speculating. No, no, well, let's speculate a little more because looking back, if I look at Phil's quotes that were in the in shipnuks article about the, you know, the, why would I want to

play for them? This is all for leverage blah, blah, blah. Looking back, does that seem so that gets published. Now he's, you know, cut off from the tour, basically, at that time, right? That was when things really blew up for him. If what if he was telling the truth in that? And what if this was part of a grand scheme of, yes, we're just using this for leverage, and this is how we're going to get all of this push through at the PGA tour, and that getting out screwed up the market for everything. I'm just theorizing on that the more I'm thinking about it and more I'm understanding how changes get pushed through the more I'm wondering like was he actually telling the truth in that at that moment?

And then when it came out, then he was forced into making that decision. I don't know. That's a that's a question I haven't fully fleshed out, but I'm thinking that right now. My biggest my biggest pet peeve is like, if it wasn't for live, would these things happen? Like that is a question, that is the deep, gutted question that two or players get to say like, you should be thankful kind of thing

because of all the things that are happening. And it is very hard to say, it's not a yes or no answer. If it was a black and white answer, I'd say the answer that would be yes, but my full answer, if I didn't have to answer yes or no, it's so unbelievably gray that it's in I hate that question so much because there were things we could have done in the past. There's things the tour could have done in the past, where things the players could have done in the past that could have avoided this. And we could have been at the same place we are now without it, with more of the top players

playing in these tournaments. And maybe that is me being an optimist in that that could have happened. Maybe it couldn't, again, this is all speculative. I want to believe that. I want to believe that we could be in this place without the other thing going on Do I know if that's true? No one does and that is where you know you watch J and they ask him to the same press conference is like you know Like people are saying you should thank us for doing this because golf center better place because of that, you know It's I don't know man. I don't know. I think minimum, it's been the timeline up of a lot of stuff.

Yeah, but my, and I agree with that. And as you know, like we said, a rising tide lifts all boats. Well, that's fine. And so one of the boats doesn't have a hole in it. And it sinks, right? You know, so I'm just making sure that all of this, all of this is in the better

interest of our game. Because like I said earlier, we are starting to get in that thin space of air in terms of this. If we, if the golf, if the, if these players on this other two or think that their value is equal to NFL or NBA guys, they have been told something that is not true and believe it. My value is not even remotely close to that. In the golf world that where you and I live in, and we talk about every day in our circle, we're stuck in our golf circle. But if you go to the general public and you ask, how many guys you know in the NFL how many guys you know in the NBA how many guys You know in the MLB how many guys you know college football let alone right versus how many guys you know in the pg tour It is uncomparable. So if these guys think that they're not getting paid their their actual amount of dollars and and they're comparing the two

You tell her that you gotta be so careful there. Yep. You're you gotta be so careful Well, I'm getting a little bit hungry and Southern Seoul is calling and I wanna be conscious of your time as well. Cause I could, maybe we'll do like seven more parts of this this fall as more stuff comes out. I still think you're about the perfect guy to talk to it all this. So I greatly appreciate your time and insights

and willingness to be open and speak on all these topics. So thanks for having me. Well, I enjoy these. It helps me channel all these, you know, that motion. Yeah, I mean, it's emotional. It's our, you know, it's, the guys made a business decision to go to live, we're making a business decision

to stay with PGA tour. People change companies all the time and it's competitive and it is what it is. It's just the first time it's having a golfing and no one really knows how to deal with it. So, it's still all so incredibly surreal, which brings me back to two of players playing golf as their job versus golf is fun. And we talked about this off here, but how, you know, I enjoyed golf so much.

And I enjoyed golf architecture. I enjoyed golf courses. I enjoy golf equipment. I enjoy golf clubs. I enjoy golf equipment, I enjoy golf clubs, I enjoy golf style, I enjoy everything golf. And this has taken, I wouldn't say taken that away. It's just changed a lot of people's views of the game of a bunch of millionaires fighting over, you know, TV rights and stuff.

Like I'm not saying there's not a place for that, but like a lot of the PGA tour players play golf because they like to play golf. A lot of PGA tours play golf because it makes them a lot of money. A lot of PGA tours, players, you know, are might be really good at business, but having to be better at golf and vice versa, right? Like I think Maverick Meeneli could have been on Wall Street and he just happens to be better at golf, right? Like it's just, it is what it is and this has taken that away.

So back to what we talked about earlier. A lot more lighter topic was what, you know, my, what I'm trying to do in order to make golf fun of you. And I have created a set of golf clubs from the past 25 years of my golf playing career of the favorite clubs that I've ever used. My sweetens cove, McKinsey Carrybag, that I will play, now it's off season, I will have like five or six weeks off now. And if I take my staff bag and my clubs and everything and I go try to play fun golf or have a beer out there

in the golf course or go play in the afternoon, nine holes, it's hard to get that feeling that you played with your dad after school and nine holes and just went to go have fun. And yeah, of course, you want to try to shoot a low score, but like you weren't thinking about it like life or death, like lose my card, keep my card, get in the majors, et cetera. You played golf because you enjoyed it. And at some point in time, everyone in the PGTour did that. I don't care what they say. They would not be this invested in it. So, you know, I'll go in the afternoon now, carrying my bag with this, this is off. I mean, I got like a 975D, a PT3 wood, the original set of Mizuno blades that I had, some cool wedges and a putter that I used.

I mean, I've never forget the original Scotty Cameron putter that I used, that my dad cut down for me. I got it refurbished from Scotty Cameron. I caddy from my dad all summer, one year, bought it in the HonorScore's Pro Shop with all the money I made caddy from my dad. It was like a hundred bucks for like three months, right? But it didn't matter, right? And I bought that putter and when I got on tour,

my gift from Scotty was he took it back and refurbished it back to the original condition. And it was like, you know, congratulations. You know, this is like your momentous for tour. And like, I can go putt with that putter now and have all those really cool bad-ass emotions that got me into the game and reminds me why I'm here. Why we're having these conversations is those days with my dad playing nine holes in the afternoon, carrying my bag or carrying his bag when he was playing the club championship

with all his buddies, it's just, that's, I'm trying to really maximize that in my off time. And the next couple weeks. Fuck yeah. I mean, that's like, the soul, I hate to even say the soul of the game, it feels so far from everything we're talking about. Yes, I know.

And like, we're talking about. I know. And like, we're reading up on these articles and these things that like I would have never imagined in the game of golf. All I used to care about was hitting that, seven iron or that four iron, that perfectly chipped, clipped chip, are making a poet, hitting a long drive

and all that stuff I feel like has been, I don't want to say stripped away. That's not the right word. It's just, you get numb to it on us. Yeah, it's like you're, you're channeling your energy into something completely different now. You know, and the guys that aren't, you know, that are can still kind of be behind that. Yeah, I don't, it's, it's, it's lucky in a way. But then you're just putting trust into everyone else. And it's just that line that you have to draw of ignorance versus information, love, passion, facts, and stats. It's something that's just, like we said, just turned gray. And my goal in the next six weeks is literally, let's find the real reason you're here.

Let's find the real reason you love golf. Like I used to, like, my dad was on the board of the Donoross Society and he took me to Mimosah Hills back in the day when I was probably in like second grade because they were gonna do the renovation of that golf course. I'd never forget riding around and looking at the bunkers and talking about the bunkers and the green shade. That stuff matters to me.

It doesn't matter to everybody, but it matters to me. And that is the beauty of the game that I am so excited to be, to kind of not reinvent, but just like the flame under again. Do you feel like you're, has burned out too strong of a word, but is professional golf wear away on you

in those terms over the years? It, no, because I love competing more than anything, period. I love tournament golf more than anything. I love the feeling of walking up a hole with the stands full of people and you hit a great wedge out of 10 feet or even closer in the crowd of rops and you're walking up the hill and you're reading the pot and you want to make that pot and you're playing against the best. Like I'm, you can't replicate what I did with Rory on Saturday at the RBC when he played great and I played

great and we're battling back and forth and you know, I, I didn't win he won but it doesn't matter. Like that feeling to me is greater than anything. So no, the competitive side doesn't burn me out. The physical side you'll get burnt out mentally and physically, but not from the competing side. It's the enjoyment side outside of competitive that I've in a way lacked. Because every time I go to the golf course, I feel like it's work and I'm trying to get better and I'm trying to hone my skills, which is your job. My job is the right thing to do. But I'm saying, I haven't gone out and played nine holes,

18 holes and not cared how I hit the ball, how I chipped out, I punted in 10 years. Well, it's also just the time. The calendar is so packed with tour events that you don't have in 10 years. Well, it's also just the time does, the calendar is so packed with tour events that like you don't have the time to get back in touch with that really. Right, and it's like I,

some of our friends that play on tour, I wanna be like, hey, we're going on a trip to Pinehurst. Do you wanna come? Why do you wanna travel to play golf? And they're like, what? What? I think we'll have to do that. Exactly.

But if, you know, in a lighter schedule, it might make perfect sense of like, again, I see it sometimes too when you play with some guys when you're having, you know, the play professionally, that they're having a couple drinks and having fun and you play into it as the sun setting and they're, they're, they're a totally different person than they are when they compete on the tour. And it's like, you can see the fun and the love for the game that probably got you into it in the first place that just over time you just get a little numt. I mean, you you you play I got to admit like no one will hear this and one of the one punch before it. But you get a bit

numb to playing really great golf courses eventually you have to be insanely numb to it. I mean like you there's no one there's only an Well, there's two places that still do. I do go and golf trips to the honor scores where I grew up, because it's emotional. It's a great place. They just redid it. It's opened last week. I cannot wait to go see what it's like.

And I go to a hoopy. And the hoopy is so much more than golf. It's great. Like, and I've been very fortunate to be able to go and enjoy some time. They already have a trip planned to both places in this fall. I love to go to golf there. And I've always talked about the British Open

in St. Andrews. I think that is one of the greatest places in the world to enjoy golf, enjoy the game, like have a pine again as, or a bell haven, or whatever you fancy, and play that style of golf. It is so different playing in the British Open. Like, I get so excited to go to the British Open or the Open Championship and play this tournament.

But then I get there, it's like, I remembered it when I was a kid, when my sister went to St. Andrews and I went with my dad and I enjoyed it so much. And then playing in the Open Championship is totally different. It's totally different. And finding that balance between the two is a personal preference that I'm trying to, you know, keep in touch with.

There's links golf and there's everything else. It's so true. It's just, it's totally different. I mean, yeah, I could pick out like the worst, the worst course I've played in Scotland, I don't even know what it would be and I probably wouldn't take 10 courses in the US. There's not 10 course in the US. I'd rather play over those like I just love that style that much. It's so much fun. And some people like, you know, you just think about the geography of golf courses

where you think about places like Wingfoot and the Northeast style. And then you place like, you know, Florida and then places like, you know, California and Torrey Pines and Pebble Beach, you know, and then places like band and dunes and Ireland, like there's so many styles of courses now that like even Sweden's cove, like you talk about just fun, right? Like we're going to JT Postons Bachelor Party at Sweden's Cove and like two or three weeks. Are you staying in the birdhouse? Uh, no, sorry. Maybe. Do you staying in the birdhouse? Uh, no. Sorry.

Maybe. Do you know somebody? I don't know. I know someone, but I don't know if it was hooked up. But, you know, just these things like that that are so cool about our sport that we all we talk about now. Like I remember, can you remember when they had those, those golf channel shows that would highlight all these things and the golf and all the golf magazines. It's like all they cared about and talked about. Now, we're in the middle of like this. It is

deep, dark. I mean, we're throwing moral things on people about the game and we're throwing like 501 C's on people about the game. And the vitriol that people have and passion around it. And I've never had to block more people on my No, and you know, I hate to say it's the biggest story in golf since Tiger Woods Yeah, it's it's yeah, it's the nor I got reporters calling me from non-sports places just trying to document everything It's going on. It's it's amazing. I mean, I can't I mean, I don't want to touch this subject But the Netflix thing coming out like, oh my God. Like that's the thing. Like as a tour player who claims

that they own, you know, like we run the tour is excited about the Netflix documentary that documented me and all my peers in this song. I can't wait to watch it. Like what? Like, I don't think Louis Hamilton, like, can't wait to get home and watch drivers. I think he's nervous about it, but this is, yeah, this is just, this is going to be gosh, yeah. And I've, by all accounts, my understanding is they've, they've not had any, no, again, the tour does not have editorial control over it at all. So I think they, they're, I think we're going to see a lot of what's going on in that,

I don't know how many times they've had to reposition their plan for what they're going to do. But, uh, it's going to be must CTV for sure. That's the look. It shows you how big a story is if people, if the, even the tour players want to watch it to try to understand the situation they're living in, that shows you how big it is. They need to do some like some of the tablet stuff that like was in the last dance of like you interview one person and then show that to you know, Isaiah Thomas interview goes and he shows that to Michael Jordan. He gets to react to it because I it's going to be two sides of like, well, yeah, they screwed us over here and then you

can get so and so I'd be like, no, we didn't screw him over. But that would make for some if they you can give me some producer credit for that if you guys need to, but that's a free idea for you. So, all right, let's get some barbecue. Let's get this published. I know people are gonna be excited to listen to this and yeah, I greatly appreciate the going out, going out on a limb with all this stuff. This was highly additive, I think,

to the conversation in general. I'm rooting for the game. Let's put it down. Well, a great way to close it. Cheers, bud. Give it a big blow. Be the right club today. Yes. Be the right club today. Yes!

That is better than most. How about in? That is better than most. Better than most. Expect anything different? I Expect anything different