No Laying Up - Golf Podcast - NLU Podcast, Episode 596: John Simpson

Episode Date: August 31, 2022

Cody takes the reins for this episode as he and TC are on location at Baltusrol for the 2022 Simpson Cup - an annual Ryder Cup style event featuring teams from the USA and Great Britain comprised of 13 injured Veterans.  Cody sits down with John Simpson - the founder of the event - to discuss its origins, his own personal history with polio, the goals of his On Course foundation, introducing injured vets to the game, his career working at IMG, some thoughts on the current hot topics in the game and more.  To learn more about the event - please visit SimpsonCup.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

I'm going to be the right club today. Yes! That is better than most. That is better than most. Better than most. only listener, you can get to know a lot more about Cody on our YouTube page. We did a what's in the bag with him. We've done a film room with him. We've done an introduction video with him. And if you're a podcast only listener, you know him, of course, as he's been a guest on this show or a host co-host, if you will, and also is the producer from the live shows.

And you hear him chime in from time to time. He has a background in the military, of course, which we have well documented. And he is up at the Simpson Cup this week and did a fantastic, fantastic interview. With John Simpson, the founder of this event, they talk about the on course foundation, what the heck the Simpson Cup is, his life growing up with polio,

how that did not hold him back. You know, they discuss his early days working with IMG, all the way up to his departure. And his thoughts on the professional golf scene, this is a fantastic, fascinating interview. We wanna give a shout to our friends at Schwab. John Simpson is one of their challengers for the year, featured on their website SchwabGolf.com.

You can learn more and see more from John there. And they do a great job supporting great stories around the world of golf. Before I turn it over, want to give a shout to our friends. At Roeback, guys, you guys have supported them tremendously through this show. They continue to support us because of it. We've been wearing their gear for a while now. Spoiler. I'm wearing the same blue hoodie that I've

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times without having to wash them. They're just really strong good quality quality. That's always a sign of good qualities if you don't have to wash it immediately after wearing it. They're gaining traction big time and you can use code NLU at rowback.com for a generous 20% off your first order. That's rowback.com, rhoback.com, 20% off polo, qzips, hoodies, and teas with code NLU. Thought any further delay here as Cody with John Simpson. Today we're sitting at the upstairs, one of the banquet rooms at the beautiful Balticorral Country Club,

joined by Mr. John Simpson, how are you doing today, sir? Very well, and you, very, very good. Nice to be out here in a cool new Jersey, late summer day. It's absolutely lovely, and it was so hot yesterday to have it a bit cooler with no sun. It's really brilliant. Usually it works out pretty good, at least.

This is the second year that I've come to the Simpsons Cup where we're at now, we'll get more into. But last year we were blessed with very good weather as well out at the creek, except for the practice round day. And I remember that being biblical rain. It was crazy. Yeah, I'm seeing rain like that for a while. Right. And actually in Britain right now that they would love it because they're going to drought. Yeah. Bad droughts everywhere. Yeah, sure. So John Simpson, quite a history in golf were here up at Balter Stroll for the 10th playing of the Simpson's Cupons Cup, the, I guess we would say the fundraising

event for the charity that you, the you spearhead. Yeah, sure. Well, it's the fundraiser for the on course foundation, which is a charity I started in 2010. It's something for the guys and girls to aim at and try and represent their countries again. And to raise awareness for the Simpson Cup. That's the, you know, through the Simpson Cup for the on-course foundation. Right. So Simpson's Cup is two teams, one team representing the United States, the other representing Great Britain, 13 players, per team. And I guess we have a normal kind of a modified rider cup style. So we play four ball or four sums, full ball, four ball, and then singles the second day. Yeah.

Where did the Simpson cup come from? Well, it came from the fact that when I started the charity, and I could see the amazing job of the charity was doing for these injured servicemen and how good they were getting at golf. I just thought I suppose with my IMG background be great to create event that was we said would raise money for the on course foundation and give these guys something to A-MAT because because they've aimed pretty well. Some of them are just quite amazing golfers now. Absolutely. Including professionals that are out there.

Who would have thought? He can't believe that one American and one Brit have turned pro and Chad Fifers absolutely fantastic. And the young Brit Tom Brown is Sorry Mike Brown is is actually following in his footsteps. Yeah, absolutely. And the other day broke a course record in Professional Tournament in Britain Incredible not only that racks up almost every I mean a long list of victories on the the European adaptive tour sure

Sure sure. He won the Irish Open recently, and won in Australia. So he's doing extremely well. That's incredible representatives of the organization itself, and for on course, for people that aren't familiar with it or aware, but it's all foundation aimed to provide access or introduction into golf, not only playing, but also employment as well. Sure. Well, it was also an idea after I played golf in Britain once, and the chap I played with said, I'd love you to come and talk to my guys.

I wasn't too sure what he did, and then I found out he worked at Headley Court, the British military rehabilitation centre. And when I went there and saw what I saw, and I think the numbers shook me. And I just thought I'm in a great position being in the golf business and being disabled myself. And knowing what golf could do for them as it had done for me. Let's start a charity which can get them playing golf on a long-term basis and then with employment and the end, once they've got their self-esteem and self-confidence back. And that's how we're coming about, really. Yeah, not only the angle, I guess, being employment opportunities, but ultimately to love the game that we all love that we all cherish.

And by doing so, you're giving people, I don't want to say a second look on life, but a new activity that they can play, the rest of their life, and truly saving them. There's multiple members that I've talked to personally that have been vocal about it, that they lost hope through their rehabilitation process. And this, not only the opportunities to get together with fellow disabled veterans, to the fellowship that your events provide, give them a new outlook, something to actually strive for. And when we talk about veteran suicide that are the numbers are crazy, crazy high. You're one of the few organizations who's actually having a positive influence

in bringing that down. You're saving people's lives. And that's a huge, huge, not only honor because I don't think there's, you never do too much, but something very, very proud that you can stand there and say. Yeah. Well, I'm very proud of them all, actually, but I must say golf seems to be the only sport I've ever come across that you can actually play if you're disabled on a level playing field

with able-bodied because of the handicap system. And that's tremendously powerful. You know, I never cease to amaze me. Happened the other day, I was playing with a double amputee, with a guy that didn't know that the guy that I was playing with didn't have any legs. And the shock on his face, as he looked, and he didn't know what he said, he said, and he just said, well, I'm off, seven handy cap. And the able body chap said, well, I'm off 18. So, it's been a wee shock, Nick. And then, you had to see a guy like, hit it 230 yards down the middle with no legs,

it's quite something. Yeah, it's been off the game, by the way. Yeah, yeah, yeah, to give them too many shots. I think that's the one thing that as I continued to get deeper and deeper into the adaptive golf and then really on the veteran's golf side is not only finding, you know, you find the location that wants to host and, you know, welcome everybody out for the Simpson's Cup or any of the on-course events. But really finding the instructors that have the knowledge are capable and willing

to teach people golf, a lot of them beginners, like we said for the first time, but also to teach them the swing that fits their body. And you know, for a lot of the guys who are amputees, you can't just sit there and talk about alignment and hip flexion and turn and stuff like that. You should let someone. They don't have it. Yeah, yeah. What do you mean turn my hips?

I don't have hips like one, you know? So how, I guess when you going back to one on course, started, how did you start putting all these pieces together? Well, it's a very good question because we had to choose the right coaches, actually, the work with us. And it didn't take too long to find two or three as it has done here, who understood exactly what the situations were very quickly.

And even to the point of working out if you have one arm are you going to play left-handed or right-handed. Basic stuff like that and you can work that out very quickly if you know what you're doing. It's amazing to see the confidence that they instill in someone but also I think the key when you have new guys coming along to our on course events for the first time and 80% of the guys and girls we have have never played golf before their injuries. Some of them even wondering what they're doing at a golf course. And one of the best things that I always think about it is the coach will say a few words about what they're gonna do over the next three days

and then he gets one of our existing call-am members who will stand up and with whatever injuries they might have but they've got handicaps now and hit tremendous shots and the look on everybody's faces and tremendous shots and they look on everybody's faces and I think it's without exaggeration in the first morning session 99% of the time every one of them is going to hit the wild shot and we all know what that means you've got them and they can't stop practicing and playing from there on in. Yeah, they're hooked. It's phenomenal.

That's why we all love this game because of that. So I guess we're up here. The Simpsons Cup this year, we're coming in. Last year at the Creek, the US team barely edged out the team from Great Britain. The record is now five for Team US. Four for Team from Great Britain. I know it's intense competition when they're actually outside playing, but when you get everybody together, incredible camaraderie across the board, and it's

something that even though they might come from different parts of the world as soon as you put them all in the same room together, they just click. Yes. Well, they do. They've all had the same path. They're all in the military. And generally, with all the wars and problems there are in the world, it's always seems to be the brits and the Americans that get stuck in together and fight or lead the fight. One chap, an American once told me, very good point. he said, you know, we fight together, we have fought together, we get injured together, and some of us have hurt people that have died. And then we never see each other again.

Different countries, you move, you know. And to get them all back together, knowing they've been through the same thing is quite wonderful. I think. Yeah, it's crazy. The bonds that are formed and not only for this one week, but people stay in contact and continue the banter for all year long. Absolutely. Friendship for evidence. Yeah, it's really not quite right. Absolutely. So we're here till Wednesday. We'll conclude this podcast. Like I told you will come out on Tuesday evening So if people are interested they want to fall along we'll be out here all week and follow us around along on our

socials they can follow the Simpsons cup on Instagram and Twitter and if people out there if we have veterans that want to get involved in not only the Simpsons cup But really dig into the long course foundation, where can they go to? Well, the best one is on course foundation USA.org. And get it, if you know anybody that would like to come along and we would love to see them and we can get in touch with them and tell them how it works. Great.

So, you talked a lot about you have vast experience within the golf world, establishing not only new events and everything, but where did that start out from for you? Well, I think it all started when, you know, obviously took up the game when I was 13 and I got down to 7 handicap and then after a while everybody saying what are you going to do with your life and I went to college university and I'd heard about this company in the States called IMG and Martin McCormack and you know managing the big three was Arnold Palmer and Gary Player and Jack Nicholas and I thought I'll write to Mark McCormack, which I did, and then I thought just before I finish university, he must get so many letters from all around the world saying, you know, how can I make this a little bit different, and being a bit cheeky, I sort of said in the letter that I didn't think he could go on much longer without

me within his company, and he must have thought, who is this idiot? Yeah. I've got to meet him. And how old were you at the time? Well, I just said so I was 25 at the time. Where did you muster up the strength not only to write the letter, because anybody could write a letter, but to be that confident in yourself? Well, I had, I think golf had a lot to do with that.

You know, I think, and also the fact that I was really, you have to get confident in just being able to walk again. And I just think that I've always felt and I've instilled this into the girls and the guys at own course. You basically, if you simplify everything, if something goes wrong physically or mentally, with you, this, you have two choices after it's all done. One, you can feel sorry for yourself. That actually works for a little while, because everybody you pour a guy and is it hurt and what can I do? It's very short-lived. Peeped up, peeped up, fed up. They don't hear it anymore. Or you can say, right, this has happened.

Now I've got to be the very best I can. And you cut a lot of corners because you realize what the other side is all about. And you don't want to go back there. You just want to keep positive and do the very past it can in whatever you're going to do. I don't think people realize that at a very early age and part of the reason why you not only feel but you can relate so much to the disabled veterans that are out here is because of your own disability. Yes. I was I caught polio when I was two and when I was 13 I went in to have some operations on my leg that didn't work and I spent most of that year in hospital which left me having to,

I mean some of them went well some of them didn't. So I have to wear a, a sort so brace for the rest of my life, learn how to walk again. And luckily my dad was a golfer, I'd never hit a golf ball. And he said, you know, there's one game you can play on this level playing for this golf. I remember a story very vividly, I was conscious of the fact that I couldn't walk very well. And it was a hot summer in Britain. And I got some clubs of my dads or whatever, and I hid behind the Caddy Shack, so no one could see me, because I used to fall over most of the time. And then he told me that he had a friend, my father,

who was a doctor, who he would like me to meet and that's all I remember. So about a few weeks later I was standing behind the catty-shake and I heard this loud billowing voice sounding John so I came out and it turned out to be this doctor friend of my father's. He says come on we're going to play a few holes. Now I'd never been on the golf course and I was terrified. So I said, no, no, no, no, no, so he really bellowed again. Come on, we'll do it. So I went up there and to cut a long story short, we ended up playing three holes. And I must have been with that exaggeration, took me four shots to get to his drive, turned out he played off six.

And just on, I only got to the second hole before he turned around to me, he said, if you wanna play this game, you have to walk quicker than that. And I thought, how could he talk to me like that? I've got a bad leg, I mean, I've been in hospital, my leg hurts, but, and he just repeated it again,

and he was quite a tough guy. You know, I was in his 13th, oh, cool, dear me. So I forget the golf. I just did kept up with him. Forget the golf. I couldn't get anywhere close to him. God in the clubhouse, and he didn't say anything. Went into the changing room, and he didn't say anything, went into the changing room,

and he waited till everybody left, just looked at me, without saying anything, he dropped his trousers, and I thought, oh, this is going to be an end to a great day, and I can't run away, this is great. And he took his trousers down, and he had one leg amputated below the knee, and the other one was in such a mess, I couldn't look at it. And he said, John, never, ever could plan about your leg because nobody wants to hear about it. Come on, let's go and have a drink. And I was 13.

So I said, great. So, and he was a doctor that lost his leg in the second world war. He wasn't a doctor. He got the military cross, which is a very high medal. Lost his leg in Italy and became a doctor five years later. A quick break here to check in with our friends at golf blueprint. You can go to golf blueprint.com, find a whole bunch of information of specifically how

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I highly recommend it. So again, golf blueprint.com, NLU20 for 20% off your first month. Let's get back to John Simpson. You grew up in a military household as well, both your mother and your father serving. Do you think that I don't want to call it tough love? I think it's just love, but it helped the fact that it came from someone else outside of your mom or dad. Yes, I think it did. But I remember something the other day, which just brought it home, and I was as a parent myself

I thought my god, what a tough one. I remember that 13th year when I got out of hospital some friends came around and They said come on. Let's climb that wall and go across the other side and I remember it was about eight foot I thought yes, good idea No thinking you know, they would do I can do that. And I remember turning around and seeing my mother absolutely horrified. And she called my father. And I heard her say, what are we going to do?

And he said, let him go. Now it was a hell of a brave thing to do on both their part, because I don't think I could have done that if it was my child. Knowing if I fell, I was going to be in huge trouble. But small things like that make all the difference. Yeah. And obviously built up not only the courage but resilience that carried you into your adult life.

Sure. Which is exactly what the resilience and that's what is instilled in these guys They're so really resistant and they never ever complain about anything Which is also wonderful if anybody has something to complain about Of just walking around the placing going on life is These guys never a complete ever I've never complained to plenty of tough tough ribbing out there Oh, well, that's that's what we all love. And the sense of humour is just phenomenal.

Yeah, and sometimes quite, I don't know what you call it here, but they call it some dodgy humour. Yeah. Because it's very close to the line. Yeah. And if people overhear it, they're horrified. How could you say that to him? He's got, you know, well, because

he's just, yeah, we go because he knows we know and he knows that I know we're on the same boat. Well, we know about a little of your upbringing now. And we figured out how you, you mustered the courage to write that cheeky note to Mark McCormick. So did he reply to you? Yeah, actually met with him and another another guy as well and I was on a trial for four months and he actually had a very, he got back at me with that bit of humour because the four months trial ended and there was a meeting that I had with him. And he was going on about everything except telling me whether I'd made it or not.

And just to put you in the picture at that point, there was a new company started up called ProServe, which has started in tennis and we're getting into golf. And I thought to myself, when is he gonna tell me if I'm in or not? Because I was, you I was quite on edge. And at the end, he said, you're probably wondering what we all think about your four-month trial. So I was trying to be cool about it.

Well, I hadn't thought about that much, yes, but yes. And he said, well, I think you've got a hell of a career in this business. But we think it's with proso. I went from way up high to sort of hit the deck and then he just burst out laughing and so he got me back. So what were those early days at IMG for you like? Well, they were great days actually because Mark was such a visionary and some people would say that professional sport is where it is today because of Mark and a lot of what he did with Arnold Palmer. The great thing about it, we were often writing the rules as we went along because there wasn't any on how to do it. We made them up some successfully, some unsuccessfully, but it was great fun and the thing that never ceased to amaze me,

we had, we took three clients, you know, not a bad three-ball to start with, Nick Fowler, Nikki Price and Bernard Langer, and all of a sudden they started doing well. And the thing about sport then was a lot of the decision makers and the bosses as now in corporations were golfers. And if you contacted them or said that you'd like to talk to them about, you wouldn't go and see the number 18 guy in the company. You'd been front of the president who would basically say, okay? I've got 15 minutes. Why should I do this? And you're speaking to a guy that you've heard of in huge powerful job You now got 15 minutes to persuade him why should take on one of our clients and sponsor them

Do you remember back to any of those early deals that you were a part of oh sure? I remember some of them very successfully, the majority, but I do remember in the early days, Mark McCormack and Hugh Snorton, who used to run the golf over here, told me that they just signed Bill Rogers, It's young Texan and he came over unknown. Anyway, he was doing quite well over here. And in those days, because television wasn't worldwide, you could have a deal with a company in America than a different company, say, Thomas clothing, for example, in Britain, a different one in Japan,

different one in South America, because it wasn't worldwide television. So he was coming over to play the open, which in fact, a different one in South America. It wasn't worldwide television. Right. So he was coming over to play the open, which in fact, Bill Rogers won at Rawson George's. He won the open. So I thought, God be, everybody's saying, if you can do a deal for him, that would really help us. And then we've just signed him. I was meeting this British company and they make very nice golf clubs.

Anyway, I got this deal down for Bill Rogers and I couldn't wait to ring Americans to tell them the new boy had done good and they said very quietly John have you ever seen Bill play? So I've seen Peter is John he doesn't wear a glove. Oh, Jesus, God, no, please, you're joking. That's sort of go back, Bri, yeah. Well, Bill doesn't wear a glove, but boy, have I got another guy that will fill up, but must have hurt his hand. He's not wearing a glove anyway. But so another one's actually, you know, luckily turned that successfully. But it wasn't only people within the golf industry,

obviously, you had to sit down with the boss of Mercedes or the boss of Rolex and see what they could get out of sport as well. And you can see where some of those companies are now. And at the time, you're still a very young man. What was the light going into these board meetings, meeting with these high level executives and saying, this is who I am, this is who I represent,

but I need you to believe in me and the product that I'm getting. Yeah, I think, I never under-mess, being humble, I think, is quite crucial. But, you know, if you think about who I was managing that's not some guys and they all did carry it on doing so well. It got easier and easier and harder and harder because you weren't just asking money for a guy that might win a major or might win a tournament. You know I I'm talking about a guy that's one, two, or one. And it's a whole different ball game. Now it's a deal which involves not just being paid,

but maybe he becomes part of the company, shares in the company, has royalties on all the products. It's a whole worldwide. So it became quite a different type of just getting some money up front that you could help with a guy getting on tour. Right. And then over time, you just kept adding to your role at X. Some phenomenal players, not just the three of you already mentioned, but it just kept growing and getting bigger and bigger and bigger for you. Yeah, it was huge. And I think we had an amazing rider cup once in the early days, it was early 80s and I think we had like 65% of all the teams put together were managed by us. So hence we've gone from nowhere to to somewhere and then of course

the inevitable happened when you start doing something well in a market that is new. Other people say, gosh, we'd love to get into this business and well, we're sudden you've got opposition and good opposition and some very bad opposition which helped but there were some very good guys that started an opposition to us and it just stopped the whole thing. You've got be even better, which I think is great. Yeah, everybody always says competition's good, right? It helps the overall business of life, but ultimately when you have some bad actors out there

who are not playing by the rules, it will ultimately help you in the end. Well, it did, it got to a point once where new companies would start up. I was on a great position that if you're trying to sign someone in the 80s or 90s and onwards from there, you know they could always go and have a chat with Arnold Palmer or Gary Player or some of the guys that they really respect in the game that we managed. And some of the new companies that came along would say, well,

we can't do that because we don't have anybody to manage. We'll give them a signing on fee. Let's give them a few hundred. Let's give them a 500,000 dollar. What? So it's helped me going into a biscuit factory and saying, well, I know how to make biscuits. You know, I'll pay this amount of money and get into it. You got to know what you're talking about.

Those sort of guys didn't last too long. When did that change? Did you see it coming kind of on the horizon, or did it just kind of pop up out of nowhere? I think with the worldwide television, the amount of money that were being put into golf and other sports. If we look at the timeline of professional golf when a global feed came,

is that a clear linear mark of that's when kind of, it really, the business of it changed. And then all of a sudden, new markets were coming into it. And you just have to look now at the Koreans in ladies and men's golf, the Japanese, the Australians and you say it's all, it's all, you know, become a real worldwide game and the Europeans particularly. You know, I remember when I first started, I don't think there was probably two countries that took any life golf in Europe.

Wow, you remember what they were? Which countries? Yes. I'm trying to think, actually. I think it was France and Spain, I think, because that's some... But not major stuff, just a few bits and pieces here and there. I always think back because you know, I think for us, Sevy was a player that was a little bit before my time.

And you look back at all the flashback footage and documentaries and movies that they put out. And he seems to be this great, not only athlete, golfer, businessman, but this kind of flamboyant character who just sashayed his way across the world. And I remember thinking about it like, well, did his country know who exactly Sevy was to the rest of the world. And I remember thinking about it like, well, did his country know who exactly Sevy was to the rest of the world? No, and he was more popular in Britain than he was in Spain.

But he was in my book, the ultimate guide, one of Manage. And we didn't manage him. He'd always been signed by Ed Barna when I joined IMG. We became good friends, actually, seven I and we tried to sign them on a few times, but when he did leave Ed Barna and others, he then his brothers took over and he was very family-oriented so it was an O'Brainer he was gonna do that. He was an amazing guy and I remember actually going down inviting me down and obviously I was trying to sign them and

I think he knew that. So we'll play some golf and talk about it anyway and cutting a long story short I was playing with him and I think on the 15th it was all over it beat me quite so I think on the 15th it was all over. It beat me quite so. I think he was five hundred at that point. And he said to me, oh come on, we'll play for, we already, I'd lost the fact we're going to play for dinner. Then his brothers were coming and their wives were coming.

I said, lost everything all the way along. And they said, we'll play for the wine. I thought, well, that's all right, because Sevy doesn't drink. But then I realized the others did. Great. It was in a big trouble. So I said, okay, so we're going to play play for the wine. I thought well that's alright because Sevy doesn't drink but then I realized the others did great Big trouble. So I said okay, so we got we're gonna play just to the end So what are you gonna give me how many shots? See I'm no shots no shots. I said Sevy your number one and what are you talking about? So I said no, I'll hit every shot. He said off my knees except for putting Where I'll hit every shot," he said, off my knees, except for putting where I'll stand up.

So I said, done. And I was level par and he was one under. So that says it all. He could do anything, anything, anything, anything. And he told me that everybody said in those days that he had the best short game in the world. I would agree with that, as everybody else playing with him would agree with. And he said that the last thing he did at practicing when it was nearly dark, he'd take a handful of balls in his huge hands and throw them over his shoulder near the green and got up and down them, all of them till he left. It's incredible.

It is incredible, every day, and that was the end of the day. After he'd spent all the time hitting off the beach so he'd, you know, long bunker shots and had to hit it off the top. Just an amazing guy. And such flair, right? The women, I tell you what the women round were each part of the world you in they loved Sevy except we had a great one

here I just think that sometimes in this lovely country of America you know sometimes they get the names wrong of foreigners and used to really grind Sevy because you had a sort of love eight relationship here on the Gulf and a member of the tour, and I was going out for dinner with him. And this rather large American local newspaper reporter came over and wanted to speak to Sevy and this was at the end of the day and he was just practicing his putting and he was over the ball and there was nobody else there but me and this reporter and he says, Hey Steve, I want to talk to you and he never looked up and he went, he's fuming. Steve,

I want to talk to you. He said me, Seve, not Steve I won't tell you what he called him after that, but that was that But and the guy was totally confused what anybody could be so rude Well, excuse me for noticing his name was Seve right it must be a spanning it got to be Steve So we talk about global TV feed and kind of how it changed. What do you think the next thing that came along that kind of changed the business of professional law for us? I think the growth of golf itself, you know, it's all the golf industry stemmed by how many golfers they are. I remember, for example, Bob Sabob Charles, who was the

first Brit, sorry you've seen the ever-to-win the British open at Royalism funny enough, he always when I negotiated his club deals and he had a royalty on his left-handy clubs the one country that always said we've got to keep him we've got to have him was Canada because the vast majority left ended. And then you find out that you know, ladies golf in Korea starts up. Well now how many golf clubs do you think they're selling in Korea and clothes and companies want to get involved with? And so it was a natural progression from all the spin-offs, but all stem round the fact that more and more people were playing golf and I love to see now,

it's not a rich man's game that everybody thinks it is. Obviously the couple of names we've mentioned, like Serbian Bernard Langard, definitely came from very poor backgrounds, that's how it should be. So it's much easier if you haven't come from money background to take up gold. I mean, it gives you a little fire in your belly, a little fight to keep wanting more and more and more. Always afraid, I guess, of looking behind and realizing where you're come from and everybody's biggest fear is going back to that point. Sure. When did you end up leaving IMG?

That was 97. So what was it? 20 years, nitty? Yeah, what was it like kind of, I'm going to go back to the early 90s and you first started hearing about this kid named Tiger Woods and IMG, not only being interested, but playing a part in his overall development and then having you come around or he was excuse me. And then do you remember those times was it full of excitement or was there still just kind of confusion of what's going on? Oh no, it's always exept them because I always love what we were doing and growing the business was superb. There's a couple of things. Number one, I was having to travel a hell of a lot

around the world as it were. Primarily UK based. Yeah, because my wife wanted the children to be educated there. So it meant me having to travel a lot more. I should have been over here, actually. But you have a very used to the Cleveland airport. Oh, yeah. A lot, but luck is even more excited when Mark spent most of his time in Orlando. Of course, of course.

That's it. And in a business change, you didn't have to be, as you can see now. Yeah. All the other thing is that IMG had such success, it became a corporation. And there's very good things about being a corporation. But there's a few things that have to change

from being entrepreneurially led, led, if you like. There was always that joke, you had somebody actually counting how many pencils the officers were using around the world. You know, it's an exaggeration but that happens. And I think there's a natural progression in life and I just felt myself that it was time to move on. You know, I will always speak so fondly of IMG. Someone asked me the other day whether I ever missed it and very quickly I said yes, I did. And I think anybody that had the times that we had then we had some great times. And I was actually with a chap that ran Europe and he and Todd, super guy.

And he gave was the last guy to give me the sort of loyalty talk and said, John, you can't do this. You've got to say the company's, you know, anyway, he didn't manage persuaping. I noticed within a year he'd gone to head up Nike and the West Coast in the marketing side. So everybody's got a point where you think it good, you know, change is good. Right. When you decided to move on, what was next on the docket for you? I think just to concentrate on areas that I enjoyed and to get a little bit more less traveling. I didn't think I succeeded too well on that

one, but naturally things, some things go well and some things don't. But as it's sort of gone on, when I look back, you know, a thing that really has made it all for me is on course. You know, I spend my time now, I was doing, you know, obviously some business around, but you know, you mentioned earlier about saving people's lives, and that's a hell of a line to say other throw away, and I've never do that. You know, I can't count the amount of times that people have told me that one chap actually said that before he joined on course,

he had exactly worked out where he was going to do it. Commit suicide, and he's looking straight in the eyes, and you know he means it right and I think the more that we can do because I know what we do works and it works well and then get them playing golf and then get them into employment. We had a very good story actually and it says a lot about what we do. We had a guy in Britain three years ago and he had a head injury, but luckily he was okay, but brain injury with it, but okay.

And he wanted to get some work experiences of what we do a lot in green keeping. And finally enough, we got him the job as a sort of trial at Royal Lam, which he passed with flying colours. And two years later, they had got the green keeping, not some special machine in, which they rented to do some work. And it broke down after an hour. They were furious to think that the company that had rented it from couldn't come and

fix it for another day. And Dave said, I can fix that. Because you forget these guys who got tremendous skills in many areas. So he fixed it. 18 months ago, he started a new job in charge of all machinery at Wentworth Golf Club, New London, which won the top clubs in the country. I mean, that makes my day, my week, my year. And there's so many stories like that, apart from what you, Chaps, have seen them hitting golf balls

and it's just mind bogging to me. I'm so proud of them. And seeing Nick, I was, I was, I, Nick, the triple amputee, as you know, and I was standing, I actually viddyed it, videos. I've got it, and I show people. And any goal for you, play it too. You know, he's hit it right out of the middle of the club, his driver, and we measured it at 216 yards. It sounds like a rocket going off. And the balance, you know, with high up legs amputated, it's just a marvel. So if we look towards the future, what does the on-course foundation evolve into? Well, I think firstly, it evolves into the fact we really want to get America, you know, at full-pelt. And that means money. So we we got to raise a lot more money

in Britain we know how big America is America doesn't often realize a we're Britain is more importantly Britain fits into Florida Right, you know, so it's a huge country here and so we've got the East Coast pretty well covered We're now in Texas, but there's so many areas we want to get into. And I'm really keen and I just want to do the very best because I push it as hard as we can right now in America because we've done very well in getting, we've got over 1,000 people now in Britain

and over 200 in employment, some form of employment. And I know we can do that here and I know the results are going to be huge. So, you know, to me, I'm so channeled in getting that done. Right. Some of the issues with growth, specifically in the non-profit space, what are the roadblocks that you run into? Well, it's interesting. There's a very good question there and I never thought I didn't realize But if you look at all the major military charities in America and Britain The sad thing is if the guys are not on the news being injured or killed the money dropped significantly

And people forget we've got over three million injured in this country with a high suicide and we need money to keep them all going. So that's a thing that shook me and I think that the great thing about this particular charity is that we can have a fundraiser which is where we make a lot of our money from. They say, right, we're going to sell 22 teams or whatever. We send 22 of our guys and girls down there. You don't have to say much more. You've got them. You know, and they want to keep on supporting you because this is another short fix, short term fix. This is a long term project. As I can tell you, it doesn't get easier with life if you're disabled, it gets harder.

These guys and girls have to have to have in my opinion the very best for as long as they can do it and they're going to get that from us. A lot of this comes down to relationships. You've spent your entire career starting starting, cultivating, grooming, and maintaining relationships all across the world. It seems extremely daunting or taxing at times, but how do you maintain it all? Well, that's also a very good question

because people change, circumstances change, people perceive you've done a good job, a bad job and people are human beings, you know, you make somebody in the early days a million a year of the course and the first thing they say, that's great, but when am I going to make two million? You know, hold on, we haven't got to the end of the year this year, yet, keeping relationships going. And also, I think wives, as we all know, have a girlfriend's a very important part,

positively and negatively. If they feel that they met a guy in the program who had a word with them saying, how much does he make from his investments or about 10% what a joke we do about 30 you know you've got people trying and it's usually all rubbish but so with all these things going and remember in golf these top golfers are always playing every Wednesday with a lot of very good people in charge

of very prominent, prominent companies, but also some not so honorable and prominent people who have their ear. So it's fighting this major battle all the time, but I was noted that IMG, the clients that, and it's all about trust, trusted what we were doing, not only in the merchandising and making money for them, but the guidance as to where they want to be in 10 years, 5 years, 3 years, doing all their day-to-day work for them. All their financial work and knowing they can then go and do what they know best, which is to be the very best they can be on the golf course. Absolutely. We saw a couple of weeks ago, Nick Fowldo finally stepped down from his role

as lead analyst for CBS golf. No, you've known him for a very, very long time, not only as a player, but then continuing in the broadcast or role. If you could kind of talk about your guy's relationship and then how you think retirement is going to work out for him. Yeah. Well, number one, I think he was an amazing golfer, one of the best I've ever seen. And he raised the level where Tiger took it to another level. And with the professional and first sort of guy, what he ate, the equipment,

he left nothing to chance. And I think that he's taken that into broadcasting. I think he was absolutely superb in broadcasting. It's funny how people are gonna retire. I think, I've always felt Nick would be very happy being on a farm, which I know he's bought now now and fly fishing. He's a great fly fisherman and having people that he want round him and You know, he's just got married again and which is because I wish him all the best for that

but You know, there's there's life changes and How you get on to the next phase and what's going to make you happy is sometimes difficult. Speaking of life changing, I know you spent the vast majority of your career working primarily with professional golfers that played full time on the European tour. When we look at the professional golf landscape now and how much has changed the You know the absolute onset of live golf

We're talking a little bit early about what you actually need for an event to get started Hmm if you could describe that to to the listeners sure we'll kind of go from there It's it's the key to everything is television So if you want to start a new tournament If you get the television organized worldwide, you then get the sponsors knowing you've got the television, you then have the players. Live golf in their situation, haven't done that. They've got finance coming in from Saudi Arabia or whatever. So the first

two things, which is television and sponsorship sponsorship are taken out and they are being funded to create a series of tour. I'm just going to be very interested to see what happens because sometimes things need to shake up. We all do. But looking into the crystal ball, which we don't know, you know, the guys that I've always managed, the successful ones, and the time I was around, they wanted to be measured by how many majors they won. You know, IMG, we started the world, those days, the Sonny World ranking, which is still used by the four majors to get anybody in, but you're not playing on the tours, you're not going to get the points. So I think that's going to be an interesting time and Augusta is going to be the first one, which is by invitation as well, as to see who they're going to pick and how they're going to pick. The vast majority of

income generated or earnings per year for professional golfers used to come from endorsements or such things off the course. Now, there's your flip-flopping it, and it's shaken up the business as a whole. And it brings into question, for a lot of people of what are they going to practice, what are they motivated to play for? I think that cuts them a little bit short because they are professionals. This is what they love to do and everybody wants to win. But if you take something out of the belly that you're scratching for, it's very easy to say that maybe he doesn't want it, you know, or won't fight as bad. He already has the money in his pocket. The money has gotten kind of out of control.

And you can do that because who really knows what the true and state of the sovereign investment fund, what they want. But at some point in time, it's hard to look back past the fact that if they're not stating what they want, they're just doing it to help repair some form of image. They want their name out there more. And it doesn't matter if it's coming from live or on the ladies European tour. We want to talk about the Aramco series, things like that. Do you think there is an end state to all of this? You have to think there's some, be good to get around a table, I think. It would be sensible,

but just and try and work out a win-win for everybody. When you mentioned earlier, a very good point about being hungry. A lot of the guys that, like Arnold Palmer, who was a big fan of, and was, you know, patron of the on-course foundation, when I asked him if he would be patron, it was a quick yes, I'll do anything for him, which was wonderful and I always thank him for that. But he had a few pennies in his bank account when he played and he wanted to play to win.

Nick Fowler, yes, 100%, Bernard Langer, how successful is he now? And how much money do you think he's made over the years? They want to win and they want to win majors. Most of the guys that I know, yes, I remember Bruce Litzky who we didn't manage, but I thought he was a fantastic golfer. And he had a figure in his mind that he wanted to get to each year, which meant he could live really well.

And once he reached that figure, he'd leave the tour. Next, which I thought was brilliant. I wish I was good at anything like that, you leave the tour. Next, which I thought was brilliant. I wish I was good at anything like that, you could do that. Most of the guys that win majors are more interested in the legacy they leave and doing the very best they can and in the time that they have at the top to be the best. And I think it was always measured in mages. Jack being the classic example. And Tiger. Talk about Liv.

Talk about a lot about the PGA tour, where they're currently at, what the future kind of looks like. But ultimately, who's took in two black eyes from this whole process is the European or DP World Tour. What could they possibly do? They have their new and improved strategic alliance with the PGA Tour, but it seems like they're the ones that are coming out the shortest of this whole deal. Yeah, I think it's very difficult to look back and in high insight and say, well, you should

have done that. But, you know, if you'd look where a few years ago where the American tour was and how successful that was, I would have thought that the European tour should have been in bed with the American tour a few years ago, and it would have made sense. But whether I don't know the full reasons, but something was stopping it. And it made sense. I could see that, that that that would really strengthen the whole thing. And yeah, I'm quite worried about the European tour, actually.

I'm a huge fan of it all, but again, it's that crystal ball we just don't know what's going to happen. And what the sponsor's going to get to do. You know, that really is led by the interests and sponsors and television, unless you've got the stars playing in your own events, it's very difficult to keep the levels high. Yeah, absolutely. As we get ready to wrap this up, I think it's one thing to come to an event like this, to see phenomenal camaraderie between the representatives from both teams, the staff that you have out here, the host club, but ultimately how successful and powerful, the foundation has turned into,

and ultimately that being reflected by your home country and the royal family. And you've been given one of the highest honors, something that as an American, I don't know anything about. I know that we're supposed to call Nick Fowl, a certain Nick Fowl to him. Oh, gosh.

You better do it. I was, yeah, slapped around the head. But I also know you are kind of in the same boat as him. So could we talk a little bit about the awards that you've been given? Well, I'm very honored to receive the medal from the Queen. It's called the Member of the British Empire. Sounds very old, isn't it? Very good.

I really took on behalf of the OnCourse Foundation because they're everything to me. I was very honored when we actually started the OnCourse Foundation in Britain firstly and one of the big things the Brits always do at Christmas. The Queen, on Christmas Day gives a speech to Britain and the Commonwealth. I was contacted, this is in 2010, in November by somebody from the palace saying that just to let me know, but I couldn't say anything, that there was some footage from when we started the on-course foundation from the Royal family's own nine-hole course at Windsor. That's where we actually started it. And the Queen said she would like to show it on her Queen's speech. So, talk about being ahead of

the game. We were putting this, but it started the whole thing in four months we were on television and everybody was saying, this is on course, but where are they? Well, give me a few months and welcome back to you, you know. And the other thing, I'm just going back to that that I think is very crucial, you know, a big lesson I learned at IMG and everybody should learn, you know, people can talk a good game. And what worries me, few people deliver it. And what I never wanted to do with this was to say, here we are, here's this charity, we're going to be brilliant, this is what we're going to do. So I held back for a year or two until I didn't have to say anything.

back for a year or two until I didn't have to say anything. Just come here and watch young Ian Bishop who has got no legs now playing off six handicapped. That says everything and that's where the growth has come from. Rather than saying what we're going to do we say this is what we've done and now we can do that here as well. So I'm hoping, and I really believe that's the right way to go. Absolutely. So thank you, John. I appreciate you taking the time. Thank you to, you know, one of your proud sponsors and ours as well in Charles Schwab. Fantastic. If people haven't watched the Challengers video for 2022 it's up there it's you and

last year's Simpson's Cup team it's a phenomenal watch and again if people want to get more involved they can go to the the on-course foundation website they can follow along on any social platform or like I said we'll be up here all week that's great well thank you very much and it's much appreciated thank you appreciate it. Thank you. Cheers. Be the right club today. Yes! That is better than most. How about it? That is better than most.

Better than most. Expect anything different? I Expect anything different