No Laying Up - Golf Podcast - NLU Podcast, Episode 60: Bones

Episode Date: December 12, 2016

A landmark day in the history of the NLU podcast, as we welcome the game’s most famous caddie, Jim “Bones” Mackay to talk about Phil Mickelson, their relationship, and a lifetime’s worth of stories. We... The post NLU Podcast, Episode 60: Bones appeared first on No Laying Up. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

I'm going to be the right club today. Yes! That is better than most. How about him? That is better than most. Better than most! Ladies and gentlemen welcome back to the No-Lang-Up podcast. I'm Chris Solomon Absolutely thrilled to have on the show today Jim McKay of course better known as bones bones Thank you so much for your time for joining us. Thank you to the folks at Calaway to help make this happen I know you just had double knee replacement surgery.

How are the knees treating you right now? Chris, thanks. They're doing pretty well. I saw the doc today and he's happy with where we're headed and he actually gave me the go ahead today to start. Maybe you playing golf, which is huge for me because as we all know, this is a caddy golf season right now. How many times a week do you play golf during the off season? If I'm healthy, my wife's nice enough to let me go out at two or three

times and I love it. I've got a couple of caddy buddies here in town that play where I do and we just go out, we have a ball and actually saw a cult nose yesterday out of the golf course so I'm looking forward to getting out and maybe playing some golf with him too so I love to do it. So what is a typical week look like for you where you're not out on tour? And I know this time of year is probably a longer stretch of time where you get to stay at home or get to spend some time with your family.

But what is a typical week look like when you're not towing the bag? You know, a lot of traveling, taking kids to and from school, things like that. I live in Arizona, so this time of year, especially the weather is really good. So very grateful for that time when I come home and the weather is kind of in the 70s and 60s, if you will, so that's nice. I spend time obviously with my wife and my kids and have fun and try and stay in as good

a shape as I can and just kind of decompress. But I certainly don't lose sight of the fact that I'm very lucky to work for a guy like Phil who certainly doesn't have to play a ton of tournaments at this point in his career or Abra, because he's done so well and so I'm not probably as affected by the whole kind of grueling amount of the season as some guys are. Do you and Phil had to have planned to have surgery at the same time, right? I swear to you, we didn't.

It was just a deal where I knew he had his thing going on and he certainly knew about mine. And as we got late in the year, I think it was, we were in Napa. It was either at the Ryder Cup or in Napa. And I said, by the way, what day are you having surgery? And he said October 19th. And I swear to you, we were on the operating table

the same time, so it was just bizarre. I mean, you obviously play in this for your longest time off though. I mean, are you at any risk of not making it back out there for when Phil tees it up next? I hope not. I mean, certainly, I'd be nuts to say, there's zero risk, but I'm in really good shape.

I really did my homework. I feel with the doctor and it went well, and I'm in really good shape. I really did my homework. I filled with the doctor and it went well. And I'm really lucky because if we do indeed start at Palm Springs, first week of year, it couldn't be a better place to start for me because the courses are small, flat, the weather's typically pretty good and playing with amateurs, the pace of play

will be pretty slow and that'll give me an opportunity to keep up. So what is, and I'm not sure how long you've been dealing with knee problems, but I'm curious as to what courses stick out to you as, I imagine somebody that's battling knee problems, there's some courses where you're like, oh, this one's going to be a tough walk. But when you're off the top of your head, what are some of the top courses you think of that you that feel usually plays where you're like, man, this is going to be tough on my knees?

Yeah, you know, you get a course like a gust and that's you know, incredibly hillian places. But then again, that week you have so much adrenaline going through you. It doesn't affect you as much as it otherwise would. The funny thing is it can actually not be hills and as much as it can be grass, it's like you get on the zoolagia, like you may have in Memphis, where you just, you know, your foot gives a little bit as you step and you don't get the kind of leverage that you normally do and that might catch up to you, you know, your foot gives a little bit as you step and you don't get the kind of leverage that you normally do. And that might catch up to you, you know, even more so than the hills will. Have you ever missed a tournament with Phil or have you cattyed every single one since he came out, became a professional?

Yeah, I think I, there's been two tournaments where he's taken other people. He took his buddy, Rob Mangini, he took to Japan one year, and his coach, Cady Forman, in the 1992-22 sun open. So other than those two events, I've pretty much Cady and everything. Other than there's been, I think, two rounds where I've had one year at Valde, Rob in Spain. I had food poisoning just like you can't imagine and had no shot for a couple of days and he grabbed the local, but I haven't missed too much work.

It's funny you mentioned Rob Man Genie, because my uncle is, he was the best man in my uncle's wedding, and I played golf with Rob Man Genie at that wedding, and I beat Rob on that day, and my uncle made me promise, he's like, if you ever get a chance to meet Phil, make sure you tell him that you beat Rob.

And I did one day at the memorial, and Phil was signing for a bunch of people and his head just perked up immediately. He's just, I said, well, I just got to let you know I beat Rob Manjeanie and Gull and Phil's like, well, that's not very hard. Exactly. Yeah, it sounds like Phil. I know, but I'm glad you've had a chance to mention that too, because when I see Rob, I'm going to mention it myself.

He probably won't even remember. First Phil denied and I doubt he remembers it because it was, it was seven years ago or something like that. But I'm curious to hear what you, what you think about how much has your job changed since cell phones have been allowed on golf courses? Oh my god, question. You know, that's an amazing question. You just can't imagine. I mean, I hate the fact that you kind of have to police that out there.

As a caddy, you're out there and you're thinking about the wind and the yard and what club you're guys hitting. And then you start before you even want to, you have to kind of turn away from what's going on with your player and look around for cameras. want to, you had to kind of turn away from what's going on with your player and look around for cameras. And I get it to a degree that folks want pictures and all that stuff, but it's crazy. And if everybody came out there and put their phone on silent, it would be

a breeze and feels great about it, and he'll tell people that he's walking in between shots. Hey, man, snap away, it's just, please don't do it when I'm actually, you know, physically hitting the ball. But yeah, to answer your question, it's changed things dramatically. And, you know, that being said, though, a lot of the tournaments, you know,

the memorial with the a perfect example have become incredibly proficient at helping the players out with this and the people get their shots and then the guys enjoy the golf. It's funny you mentioned the moral because I was actually there on the AT box several years ago. I forget which year I think it was 2012 when Phil, he'd had enough of the cell phones and you guys were talking over the shot and he came back to the bag and he said, I can't

even focus right now. I think it was at 2012 and you may not remember the the shot and he came back to the bag and he said I can't even focus right now. I think it was at 2012 and you may not remember the year he withdrew after one round. It's a great, it's very, very, it's probably right on. I know we were playing with Bubba and Ricky and I think maybe Bubba, just won the Masters. I'm not sure, but obviously, you know, three of them of the most popular players in the game and it just got, you know, it got a little nutty that day, but as I said, I mean, I think I've said to the gentleman that runs that tournament, we've gone back to last year or two, they've done an amazing job of helping them out with that.

I think they put extra security on Phil's group now because of that. I do remember seeing like extra, extra guys with the mobile device enforcement come sprinting up and warning people before Phil comes. That's what you get when you're as respected as Phil is. When Phil's practicing, let's say you're not a practice round an official tournament, how often are you there? Do you guys meet up ever during the off-season for practice rounds or are you, when he practices, is he totally on his own? Yeah, he's on his own. I'd say 95, 99% of the time, he does this thing. You know, I like to give Phil as much space as I possibly can. He obviously sees so much

me during the year. And the great thing about Phil is, I mean, is you know he's doing it, he's in it, you know, I'm amazed at 46, you know, that he wants it as bad as he did at 22. And I know he's working his butt off wherever he is and he's really, really into it. And now we have this really great relationship with Andrew Getson, his guy that started teaching him, you know, before last year's tournaments and Andrew Liss here in Arizona,

and he can just whip over and see Phil at the drop of a hat and it works out perfectly. So, you know, I feel it ever wants me to do something with him. I'll do it. You know, certainly, if he goes to majors to prepare or whatnot, I'll go with him if it works out. But he fills a guy actually that likes his privacy and he's actually a guy that when he's warming up before tournaments on the tour, you know, he's not necessarily a guy that's going to put down his range balls next to a certain guy so it can be a, you know, a social occasion. He's kind of all business and all work. And if anything, he likes to kind of have his privacy so he can get

things done. And do you catiform in like corporate events or outings or stuff like that, or is he pretty much on a zone for those? Yeah, I've certainly been to a bunch over the years. I mean, you know, I would say, you know, maybe a third of the time, but I'm so lucky that, you know, because he represents these companies and they're great to me, you know, be a KPMG, companies like that over the years that I've become friends with folks that run these companies and run these outings. So I enjoy going and seeing, you know, John V. Meyer from KPMG, for example, he's just, you know, wonderful people. And so they're fun and you meet some interesting people over the years. And one of the things I found being a caddy is these relationships that you kind of forge

over time, that people you come incredibly close to, it's not just, you know, caddies or players, it's, you know, businessmen or women that you meet at these outings or the like. Well, if you do see John V. Meyer anytime soon, can you give him a good, put a nice word for me for a raise for next year or something like that? I'm gonna text you as soon as we get off the phone. Actually, don't tell him that I have a golf podcast outside of my normal job, so I don't want to draw any attention to that. So I find the dynamic just between your and Phil's relationships so interesting.

Just because I find Phil such an interesting guy and I can just only imagine some of the things that he says during the round. How much does he talk during a round and how much of it is just crazy random theories about things that aren't even related to golf. I just want to know what kind of things he talks to you about during a round when he's not talking about golf. We talk about everything, politics, sports, movies, you name it, dinner, whatever it is, you hit it on the head, he's a very kind of sociable guy and he likes to talk.

You get these pairings out there and he'll talk to anybody about anything. It's great, and I like it because it keeps him loose and it's what makes him comfortable and whatnot. But yeah, the thing about Phil that I figured out really early on is that he's got something akin to a photographic memory and you have to be really careful what you say to Phil because if you say something different than what you said originally, he'll

say wait a second, you know, three years or months and nineteen days ago you said this. And so he'll call you on it. So he's, you know, he likes to read and learn about things. So there's always something interesting to talk about. What is, what's the cockiest moment Phil's ever had between the ropes to you on a golf course? Man. Well, I mean, he's, you know, he'd like a lot of the guys out there. I think that if he had a certain level of success. He'll tell you this, we were at the Ryder Cup this year on Sunday. We get out there and obviously the

US had a pretty peak lead, but big leads have been lost before on Sunday at the Ryder Cup and I don't need to tell you how much this Ryder Cup meant for the US and how it was basically a must win. And so you know, you're out there as a caddy and you're trying to kind of, you know, read your players, you get off the first T and C, how he's doing, you know, how he's handling the day and what not. And so basically I was talking to him early in the round just kind of, you know, you're taking your players'

temperature and sense and he just looked at me, he goes, he meant, seriously, I got it. I don't need any coach today. I don't need anything for you. I have flat out got it. And you know, and that was that he ultimately made 10 birdies and played as well as you did in the match against Sergio. So, you know, you know, there's probably a couple other things I could tell you over a beer.

Maybe they weren't on a podcast, then that's all you're getting from me to that. So I'll cut this short then, if that's the case, and we'll just do all the offline stories you can. You brought up the writer cup in that particular match, and there's something no one to ask about that. I found your, I think I've replayed that final putt that Phil made on the 18th green, about five or six times, and I find myself not necessarily watching him after it and watching your reaction to it because there was a big pause from you and then you just let out a ferocious angry

at the ground fist pump. Like, it's just a true excitement. What, I mean, I know that you were just elated for Phil in that moment, but it felt like there was just like this build up and this, it felt like that meant something more to you than just like a normal celebration on the 18th green. So is there anything to that? What was what was that feeling like for you? Yeah, there's there's a lot to that and I'll try and keep it short but but the bottom line is you go to these rider cups and and you know I've been fortunate to go to the last ten or eleven of them and And they're amazing, amazing events.

And we all want to win the American golf public once is to win. And we haven't been winning very much. And certainly in the wake of the 2014 Ryder Cup, ending the way it did in Scotland, ending the way it did at the press conference afterwards, they'll put a lot on his own shoulders. And took, he took, he kind of, you know, ran with the ball and I'm so glad that he did because a lot of things that desperately needed

to be changed, got changed and quickly. And so, you know, going into this year's Ryder Cup in addition to the fact that we haven't been wanting them, you know, I felt I certainly felt the pressure that Phil had on him if that makes sense. And so for, you know, him to play the way he did, he played pretty darn well the first two days and then just to go out there on Sunday and to play that well under pressure and just to be in a match when you're playing a guy who's literally hitting it 305 yards down the middle of every single fairway and then make that put on 18. I was really happy for him. I was really happy for the team.

I was really happy for all the people that have been, you know, come up to us and say, geez, can we just win a Ryder Cup, you know, and things along this line. So there was a lot that went into that week and that moment. Yeah, I found that very refreshing as a fan just because I know that obviously Cattie for Phil, somebody who's made the second most money of all time on the PGA tour, I would imagine, your monetary benefits of being a Cattie are kind of settled at least, and I think there's a lot more art to your craft if I may say and that you You're invested in his success more than more so than you know just from a financial perspective obviously

So I just I find that the the caddies excitement level about the writer cup and interest in the writer cup So fascinating and I'd remember reading somewhere where you said before you even had caddy for Phil It kind of weighed into your decision to to move from I think Curtis Strangest bag to his bag was you had a goal of Cadying in the Ryder Cup and you saw Phil as your ticket into Cady for the Ryder Cup. Am I remembering that right first of all? Oh yeah, that's exactly right. I was actually working for Scott Simpson's time, but certainly working for Curtis a little bit too on he had a rotation the guys at the time, but you're a hundred percent right.

My, you know, and listen, you know, as you know, the caddy turnover rate is incredible. So I'm thinking, well, if I go to work for Phil and Michelson here, I have this opportunity, but boy, I hope I can hang in there for a year or two, because, you know, statistically, you're just not gonna last that long. And they've always said that you never want to be a great player

as first caddy, because typically, they're always gonna make a change at some point. I'm fine somebody else out there they'd rather work with but yeah my thinking at a time was my gosh I don't know how long I'm going to caddy and keep my head above water out here so my only goal as a caddy is to caddy in one rider cup and the entire decision to a large degree went into that. Did it meet the hype once you finally got to do it and now that you've done it 10 times is it still gives you the same kind of feeling?

Even more so. I don't know what it is. It's just the most amazing experience that I think Phil and probably other guys have said in interviews that as you get to a certain point in your career, it's like these team events mean as much to you as anything just because there's so much fun, there's so much kind of bonding, you have relationships with these guys, you really would know the wise do for the most part. I mean, you see a side of folks that you aren't going to see in a good way and it's incredible.

And I mean, this year, with the whole tiger thing, and Tiger just taking the leadership role that he did, and obviously what went on with Bubba, and I know the whole Bubba Ted thing, that when it turned out that Bubba was gonna be an assistant captain on the team, and he was up there, and that was great, I admired him very much for doing it, but as Caddy's, we were like, well, where's Ted? You know what I mean?

So, you know, they got Ted on the next plane up there and they were a big part of it. So, that there was just a lot to this Ryder Cup. How many more, if you're to place a bet on it now, and how many more Ryder Cups do you think Phil has in him? Well, I tell you what, if you ask him about being a captain, he does not want to have that conversation right now. Do you know what I mean? I don't, you mean it. Because he refuses to acknowledge that he's not going to be on the next team or the team after that, and I love it about him. And I hope it works out exactly the way he wants it to. So my gosh, more than, more than, you know, multiple is the

answer to that, you know, it'd be, you know, Paris, Wisconsin, you know, Rome, whatever. And obviously there's that, you know, right a couple, you know, lurking at Beth Page there in about 24 and he's got those ties to that community and to that golf course. And that would be super cool, you know, but, but right now he is all about playing and does he want to hear about it. So my dream of him being a playing captain in 24 is still alive, it's like you're telling me. It's definitely alive.

Yes, yes. That's like my number one golf goal I think to see is, it's still be a playing captain send himself out first, I can't wait for it. It's still about the first. So you had just had mentioned when you got on Phil's bag you weren't sure how what the shelf life would be like or how long you'd be with him. Was there ever, I think you probably got past a certain point where you stopped fearing this at any point, but was there ever a time where

there was a moment of contention between you two where you felt like there's a possibility you may part ways or has the relationship been as been as awesome as it appears on TV. No the relationship's been great. I mean you know like any other play in Caddy you know we've had our moments you know but but but in a sense that's part of being a caddy you know in my opinion you know the most important thing about being a caddy is not being afraid to disagree with your player and certainly not being afraid to have a different opinion than he does at a big moment. And so, you know, he's been great.

I mean, you know, I didn't know Phil before really going to work for him. We'd met, you know, once or twice, but he didn't know me and I didn't know him. And, you know, we want to see how this whole thing would go in unraveling and it's been great. But no, I mean, I'm very, very grateful for how he's treated me, how generous he is. And he's a good guy to be around. One of my favorite stories, I'll tell you a quick story if I can.

Please. That's what you're here for. Okay, when he won the Master's in 04, for his first major when you know, big monkey office back, whatever the case may be, you know, as a caddy, you know, they take him away and he goes and does, he talks to the press and he goes to dinner with the members and as a caddy, you don't see him for hours. I mean, I'm not off the clock yet, so I'm sitting there and I'm waiting until I can do what caddies ultimately do, which is the thro clubs in the car you know say goodbye great plan and that's the end of

your week so there we are he's won the masters you know it's 630 on a Sunday evening and I don't see this guy for like three or four hours so I'm sitting in this parking lot or near it outside the Augusta National Clubhouse and it must have been geez ten o'clock and I look out to his car and I see some figures. It's pitch black, dark out there, and it's filled. And there's two or three other people around him, so I walk there to kind of help out with pack in the bag. And as I walk up to him, I see these guys are hugging Phil, and they're not just hugging

him. They're like, it's like an emotional hug. And as I get closer, I realize that I have no clue who these other two or three guys are. And I'm like, man, who are these guys hugging Phil? I don't know I've been his caddy for quite a while now, and I've got no clue These guys are well it turns out These are the guys that work in the lower locker room But Augusta National Phil's been tipping all these years and taking such good care of and now that Phil is one of the

Masters he's going to the champions locker room and these guys are losing him forever and they are just devastated. Wow. So they're hugging it out in the parking lot. I thought that's really cool. It kind of speaks for how he must have taken care of them over the years. Knowing Phil, he probably drops in there still from year to year and I still probably say so out of those guys. Absolutely.

One random event that I've always wanted to ask about is the 2014 PGA Championship. Phil was runner up playing in the second to last group. Darkness was approaching after some rain delays that morning. And the tournament just ended really, really awkwardly with Laurie basically playing up with you guys on the 18th hole. Afterwards Phil was as reserved as I think he's capable of being biting his tongue yet kind of wanted everyone to know that he was not real pleased with what happened. Behind the scenes was it a different scenario? Was he quite... first of all I don't think that I don't think what happened had an outcome or effect on the outcome, but I can tell if there wasn't two pleas with that, would you agree with that?

I would agree with that. I would say, you know, I don't want to speak for Ricky, the you know, Phil's playing partner, but I don't think anybody was particularly happy. I mean, you know, listen, Rory is the, you know, one of the great guys in the game, an absolutely phenomenal guy. Everybody loves us included. And there was no question that when we got to the tee and we had waited an uncomfortable amount of time waiting to hit our tee shot there in the fourth round because it's a reachable par five. You can see this storm coming in and it's a goofy tee shot.

It's from a very elevated tee with a water hazard on the ride and this bunker on the left. And you know, we drove off the tee and then Rory and whoever he was playing with, I think I might have met Vee Spurger guy, came up on the tee behind us and we kind of knew what was going to happen and the two PGA of America club pro guys that were the rules officials in the groups. There was some kind of communication between them. And basically our guy says to Ricky and Phil, can Rory play through. I'm sorry, can Rory hit up? And they said, they said, absolutely.

I mean, it was totally the generally thing to do. You knew that CBS who I assume was telling they wanted it done Sunday night, the last thing anybody wants to do is to come back Monday morning, the volunteers TV, anybody. So we were doing it. It was a nice thing to do for Rory. It was a nice thing to do for everybody. But what happened that was completely out of line was that the rules official, I shouldn't say the club pro walking with our group took it upon himself to tell Rory he could also hit up on the second shot.

And that's a completely different animal. I mean, at this point, we're trying to make ego, I can't remember, it feels maybe two shots back, I can't remember, you know, Rory hit a drive into a position where it was obviously was most likely not going to make a four. And so it was handled really, really badly by the official that walked with our group.

And I thought that Phil and Ricky did an amazing job of kind of biting their tongues, especially when after the fact, the guy, I think, threw Ricky under the bus and said, yeah, which Ricky's idea to tell Roy to hit up, and that wasn't the case at all. Yeah, if I remember, I think Phil made birdie, and I think Ricky missed a rather short putt that, if I remember, I'd cost him around a quarter million dollars or something like that. Absolutely.

He'd write, he'd be 360 to five or6 footer that cost him a ton of money. And at that point, I can't remember if it was Ryder Cup points or what it was because that was a Ryder Cup a year, I think. And there's a lot going into that. And again, for the guy to take it upon himself to do that without consulting with the players, it just wasn't handled the right way. Yeah. I mean, it sounds reasonable. Everything sounds reasonable there,

except for that rule is official, that kind of buttered in when it didn't need to be. I can understand Phil's aggravation with the situation as well. And I mean, it could have been handled differently if they had handled the T times differently as well, and not tried to fit everything in the TV window. But that's two years ago.

But I was just always curious as to what Phil's reaction was to that. I'm curious as well. What is the most ridiculous situation where you've ever had to tend to pin? Oh boy, I tell you that one of the first times that Phil ever did it at the old international in Denver, I think it was the first time actually he ever asked me to tend to pin on a pitch shot And we were playing with I think facts and in Davis love and Phil was like sure to these greenside bunkers in two on the 17th hole He asked me to go up there and tend it and so you know Phil's kind of out at your shot So as I'm going up to tend to flag facts and in Davis and their caddies are just giving it to me You know, you know, what are you gonna do if you

chunks it in the bunker, you know? And I'm, and then of course, fill hold it. You know what I mean? So, I remember that one specifically is really fun to actually, that was in 1993, I believe. And then of course, the year that he did it at San Diego that kind of gets some airplay to this day, you know, he asked me to go attend the to flag and I wasn't surprised because he was,

A, he hits a lot of great pitch shots and we all remember Charles how hitting that flag and going back in the water there several years before. So he would, that kind of thought was in his mind too. So he tells me to go up there and tend to flag. So I'm running up there. It was like a 75, 80 yard shot and I'm tend to flag and it occurs to me Get given the position of the sun that if I lose this ball in the sun that it comes down hits me in the head It's gonna be like the biggest blue sports blue Peril all time

So I was over there choking my guts out about what about taking this ball up as it's Simplified to the crap through the clouds and Fortunately, I didn't at all worked out, but we've had soup on with that over the years. How much of it is practical, and how much of it is a little bit of showmanship in fill? You know what, I'll tell you, it's at least 99% practical,

because if they kept a stand on the tour, he and I talk about this all time for the number of times a pin is hit inside, you know, 125 yards in the air. I take my man every single year against anybody because he practices these shots incessantly at home and he's really, really good at just kind of dialing up these yardges. So he hits a lot of flags and you know one year at the Deutsche Bank on this 15th hole, he hit this certain front position, he hit this flag two years in a row from like 115 yards. I remember he was just absolutely beside himself. So you know as we've seen over the years, I remember Marion Lee Westwood hitting one of those wicker baskets on a wedge shot and the ball went somewhere crazy and I think he made dub.

I think he was in contention at the time. So those guys are so darn good. That's something you have to think about at times. What is, I mean, the Phil US Open narrative has been beaten over the head for many, many years. It's not going to stop until he wins one or forever, one ever stop. But looking at the courses going forward with the US opens to be held,

is there a particular course you think he'd be the most excited for? Let's see, somebody got Aaron Hills next year, and I'd be lying. I don't know anything about Aaron Hills. It's, you know, other than it's in Wisconsin, and I hear there's not many places to stay. The important things to you.

Yeah, exactly. So, I mean, you tell me, going for, what were the locations after that? I'm pulling it up here to make sure I get it right, actually, because I'm not positive. I know 2019 is in Pebble. 2018 is Chinacock. 2019 is Pebble. 2020 is Wingedfoot, and then Torrey pines the country club Los Angeles country club now

We're getting up into 54 year old Phil Well certainly, you know shinnokok. I mean he's you know one of the things that Phil's proved over over the years that he has you know He feels like he has mojo at certain courses. He goes there and just has a great Phil played You know people ask me all the time about, you know, which, you know, oh my gosh, you know, what went down at Wingfoot must have been incredibly hard in terms of accepting the loss the way it all played out. And I tell people all the time, you know, it's not nearly as hard as when you play great and don't win.

And so, he played great at Shinaka no 4 and lost the goose and I'll never forget that day you know Phil lost he made I think he might have made birdie on 14 15 and 16 and we made double on 17 and lost the goose and by two and I remember getting in my car as I left and now I had all these matches on my on my phone and the first one was from Jolacogba who caddy for Fred at the time and now caddy is for Tiger. And he left his matches and said, you know, no matter what you do, don't ever watch a replay of the golf today. And that was just basically him saying, you know, on greens that ultimately died that day

and I think they were dead a year later, you know, you know, it's tough, you know, when you're playing on hard baked out greens and, you know, guys making 30 footers on greens where it's hard to make a 5 foot or, you know, and he just played incredibly well and it just didn't work out. So those, you know, that that loss was much tougher than wing foot, but again, he, I know he feels really good about Shinnecock. So, and what was the other one that you mentioned right before after? Pebble is 19 and then wing foot is 20. Yeah, we love Pebble. He's one there three or four times. He had a chance to win there in 2010. So that's good no joke too. So I look forward to both of those.

And if I remember right, Chinatokin 04, that was the year that things really got out of control, right? Where they were watering the greens in between groups and the ninth green. Or one of the greens just got completely messed up and there was guys putting it off the green. Am I remembering that right? That's 100% right. We got on a par three on the front nine, I think. I think it might be about seven or eight

and Phil and I were talking on the tee. And we were like the only possible way we could make par on this whole is to intentionally miss the green in regulation. So I remember he had an eight iron and the goal was to hit it in this one left bunker and then you would possibly have this angle on a bunker shot that was uphill and he hit this incredible eight iron right in the middle of the bunker. It didn't bury, hit this incredible bunker shot to three or four feet and I think made it for three and we picked up, you know, whatever a shot on the field because I think

it was just a disaster and it was just, it was that week when we were going in there, the guys were going in there, the cards and they were having like the head, the USJ guy was never apologizing to everybody for what had happened and, you know, the condition of the Greens and all that stuff. It just completely got away from them. What do you, what do you think, and what do you think, Phil thinks about the way US Open courses are treated now?

I think I personally think there's been progress towards making things a little bit better test graduated rough and certain things but I think the players are recognizing it as the setups have been better I'm sure there's still plenty of people that do not like the way USG the USG a sets up golf courses But what do you think about the trend in the courses? They're using, how they set them up and how does Phil feel about it? You know, I can't really speak for Phil because, you know,

I'm actually, it's a fairly sensitive subject, even what he does. But, you know, I think that it's certainly gotten better. But then again, I mean, when you have situations, you know, like last year at Oakmont and what went on with Dustin on that green and that ridiculous ruling, as you know from probably going there, you just can't have greens with that kind of pitch, that kind of speed. And I think that as long as that goes on, you're kind of asking for trouble. But then again, to your point, I remember in 2001, excuse me, at the course in Tulsa Southern Hills, the 18th Green at Southern Hills is absolutely huge,

and if you stood in the middle of that green and dropped the ball from three or four feet above the ground, the ball would land on the green roll off the green and roll 60 yards down this hill. And I remember at the time the guy setting up the golf tournament saying, well that's okay, we just won't cut this green as low as the other 17. And the players were like, but this is the US hope, you know what I mean? And that was the green ultimately on Sunday where you had the short mist from Stuart Sink, I shank and then we were in Riteef Goose and you know

missing it from a foot and a half to one the tremendous. It was just chaos on that green because in my opinion, the USJ had got the setup completely wrong and guys would completely psyched out on that green but it's definitely better. But you know, I think I think it can get better still. I was reading a little bit, or maybe I heard you on another podcast talk a bit about how you chart golf courses, and I found it pretty very interesting. I think a quote I heard from you say is like after playing whole 16 of the gust over the years, you play that whole eight yard shorter or something like that. How much of that of your like knowledge at this point in your career 20 plus years in,

can you rely on prior experience and your Tuesdays and Wednesdays a little easier charting courses, and then they were 10, 20 years ago? Yeah, you know, especially now, you know, these major courses are on these rotations, obviously, and you know and every several years you go back, and you have all these notes and all this knowledge from the previous term. So, yeah, it definitely gets a little easier in terms of what you acquire. And Phil's gotten the point now where he's done so much coursework on these courses that

we didn't, like, say at Mirfield in 2013, have to go there in a sense break the course down whole by whole and the weekend ended up being easier in terms of prior to in a week of the year and end up winning. But you're right. What I find especially at Augusta that you reference is that you have these little theories about holes. That was always our little secret and I think the film mentioned it once in an interview about how if you go back and you watch the history of the masters and guys playing 16 the number of times you see guys

posing over shots on 16 and the ball coming down 25 30 feet behind the hole which is probably the hardest part at August the National behind the hole on 16 on Sunday. So, you know, I don't know why it is, it's a very low spot on the golf course. There's 20,000 patrons that seem sitting around and maybe there's just not much oxygen there. I don't know, but the ball just seems to just take off off the club there, especially as compared to the other 17 holes. So, it was kind of crazy, but in 2004, we had talked about this and never put it into play and

When Phil you know was chasing down Ernie in 2004 at least trying to as he walked off a 15 green He just made kind of a disappointing par and we he's filled needs still needed to make a birdie to To tie Ernie for the lead who was close to finishing We walked to the 16th to T there from 15 green and we were like, okay, that's plug this thing in there and we got there and it was a flat out seven iron yardage and he just decided we just, you know, he hit a 15 feet underneath the hole in May two

and you know, that certainly helped. No matter how many times you rewatched that 2004 Masters, it never gets old. I mean, it really is pretty storybooked for when that first masters was it 31 on the back 90 shot? It was yeah yes it was yeah what he murdyed up five at the last seven I believe yeah it was cool thanks epic so Gustav's very famous for all making a lot of tinkering a lot of changes to the golf course. I know Phil likes to go there, at least once or twice maybe before the masters.

Oh, I'm curious, do players get notified about what changes are made? Or do you guys show up there? And are you like, oh, this bunker's a little bit different. Or this hill's changed. Is it kind of secretive? Or do they inform the players when they make changes to the golf course?

From what I've seen, I think it's a little bit of both. I mean, I know that if I'm not mistaken, I think they've told the guys at times that they read to like a couple of greens a year just to keep them fresh. And of course, they put them back together just, you know, exactly as they were. I mean, that place is amazing. I mean, it's such a great tournament.

And it's so well run the way they do things. But there's no question that you will definitely notice things that aren't necessarily official. Like, you know, the first he just continually creeping back towards the putting great or the, you know, I know you hear stories like I think it was Charles Cudi who used to talk about how when he first started playing the master's you would walk straight out of the pro shop door and there where the first he would be. Well, now you'd have to turn left and go 100 yards left to get to it.

So there's definitely been some. I remember one year left at the 13th green, there's that little shallowed out area left at 13. And it wasn't nearly as shallow as it had been previously. And I don't think that was kind of like officially kind of put out there. But you know what, that turn of those guys, as far as I'm concerned, those guys

can do whatever they want, because they do it so well, they run such an amazing tournament, and it's just such a pleasure to be there. That's what I was going to say, is it's amazing how much they do make changes, and there's never an issue. Like, they're just never, it's just the issues you cited with the US Open. Obviously, they don't have the same continuity in the golf course, and don't know the courses as well when they make the changes, but it is amazing how they can just, you know, make a change year over year and people don't even notice it for the most part. But when you're at the masters, when you're at Augusta, how much do you think, like let's say it's a Sunday afternoon round, it's typically the same pen position for the most part on Sunday. If he's got a put,

you know, like an eight foot putt, 12 foot putt, are you ever thinking like, well, in 2010, I remember this, he missed this low. People say like you remember the break in the greens At Augusta more than you read them. Is that something you practically apply? Yeah, and unfortunately for me I work for a guy that's completely plugged into that and I think that's part of the reason He's had success there and apart the reason why tigers had the successor that he's had because they have These memories where they just get locked in and they absolutely remember it and you know referencing back to to oh four masters film made this critical two on twelve and I do remember him telling me you know as we were walking to 13 to you

it was like man I've missed that putt low and I've missed that putt high so I figured I absolutely knew what the break was this time and he made it and I think it might have made the same Putty no six when he went on to win so you're 100% right and getting back to what you're talking about about a gust And the way those guys do things like a quick story about that is very early and Phil's career We were playing playing playing the first round of the masters and we got to the second tea And you know and everything's put in the same spot, everything's right where it should be and the guys that put out the water fountains or the water jug if you will we get a little cluppet water out there had put it on the tee box not thinking about

guys being left-handed hitting off the tee so you could literally you could fill the tee up his ball and take a swing and hit the water jug. And so two or three times that day we had to move water jugs because they, you know, just, it slipped past this one guy. And the next day I was out walking pins, you know, at the golf course. And there's 40,000 people out there fill an afternoon time. And I'm in amongst these people. And I certainly don't have my caddy outfit on and I'm walking up You know back to the clubhouse and a half a mile away down there by I don't know seven green or something like that And this man comes over to me and he's like the water jug guy

I think he's the guy that flared out and you know somehow they you know they know you're out there You know, I mean they you know that's amazing. They they know everything that's going on at Augusta And he came out and apologized to me. And it's just amazing how professional those guys are and how seriously they take their tournament. That's the only defense the course has against the left-handed domination that's happened in the last few years.

What I've heard you give a couple examples in the past or at least one example in the past, but I'm curious as to if you could think back to a situation where you felt, maybe it would regret you have or felt like you did something along the way that cost-filled that you look back at and said, man, I had that one wrong.

Yeah, definitely 99 US Open Against Pain Stewart. It was such an amazing day at that golf course. Such a great golf course. And then we started having this kind of really kind of awesome weather and it's sort of misting, you know what I mean it was almost like they were playing in Scotland and pain made this incredible like that 25 30 footer for par on 16 to take a one shot late and then he stiffed on 17 with the honor hit it to 5 6 feet and fill hit it to 10 feet and

Fill asked me to read the pot and you know to this day I regret the read that I gave him. I mean I thought it was a straight pot and You know looking at it there at the time and on TV after the fact about the ball definitely broke right and misribe and of course pain You know makes the putt on the last hole to be filled by one and and and of course, pain, you know, makes the put on the last hole to be filled by one. And, you know, there's no question by a hundred miles if I could change one thing over the course of my caddy career, you know, in terms of input that I gave fill, it would be that. Yeah. All right. We won't dwell on the regrets any longer than that. No, it's not.

What would you say in your whole career, what would you say you're most proud of? your whole career. What would you say you're most proud of? Um, geez, I'm not, I'm not a kind of like, I, I, I, I don't want to be like a pat myself on the back guy. So, you know, I don't know, I'm, I'm proud of the job I've done for Phil. That's, that's probably, you know, the best way to do it. I mean, I think that you know you kind of jugged yourself by You know What kind of job did you do for the guy when there was a lot on the line? You know what I mean and and you know it's it's if you're you know in

56 place and you know you're hitting the seven iron into the 18th grain, you know It's you know there's not a lot of heat on you know in terms of at that times But you know I just hope that when Phil's done, and he thinks back to those days, he won his majors, and things were really important that he's happy with the job I did in terms of the advice I gave. Have you ever seen Phil play any better than he did at the 2016 Open Championship? I don't think I have. I mean, I'm still trying to process that whole week, you know, you know, at the time when it was happening and when it ended, you know, we were, I was, you know,

very happy for Hendrick and his caddy, Lordy, who's a tremendous guy too, and he deserved it. He played his, he played unbelievable obviously. But in the days that followed, you're just like, man, you know, how did Phil not win? And you kind of pick it apart and all that stuff. And you know, it was just amazing, amazing golf. And I was, it was amazing the reaction that it got from people. And I was blown away by like the comments of Jack Nicholas, after the fact, suggesting that possibly it was as good or better than their dualness sum and Watson and 77 so it was it was really cool to be out there. I got to tell you a quick story about that so those guys are playing and it's and it's just getting crazier and crazier and just in terms of you know how big

it is out there and the reactions of the crowds and all that stuff. And so I think Phil picks up a shot on 11 and then makes a 25, 30 footer for par and 12, which is just this huge momentum saver for us. And the place is just going bananas. And so we get to the 13th tee there and and and and I can feel both drive off the tee and everybody walked off the tee and the last guy

off the tee and I'm walking off and this guy goes excuse me excuse me and it's the walking official with the RNA and he says to me as we're walking off the tee he goes will you please run up there and let those guys let the guys know that they need to catch up with the group in front of them? And I thought to myself, are you kidding me right now? I mean, these guys are putting on the show of shows. Now, there, the whole world's watching this, I think. And you want me to run up there and tell these guys that you've got a problem with what's going on out here.

I said, no, I'm not going to and a little words for that effect and And then we left the whole thing alone But I just thought to myself in the wake of the whole thing at the US at the US So if we just a couple weeks before I thought to myself boy these guys just can't leave well enough alone sometimes There's no one behind you either. It's not like you're holding up the course Right everybody's on the edge of their seats. I mean it is just it's like a rock concert out there at the golf tournament I mean I thought to myself now. concert out there at the golf tournament. I mean, I thought to myself, now why would you intrude on this?

Yeah. I don't know if this makes you feel better or worse about it, but a friend of mine, Jake Nichols, who's a very incredible statistician. I don't know that the formulas they used to come up with this, but he said that Phil, that Phil's performance at the Open Championship this year was the fifth greatest performance basically in relation to the field in major championship history. Wow. And Hendrick Stenson's was second only to Tigers 2000 US Open. Oh no kidding that's fascinating that's very interesting that makes total sense that's cool. If I'm able to get the get the article or how he did how he came

up with that I'll send it over to you but yeah I don't know if that helps or hurts I don't I don't know how to ask a question about that either. I'm so curious as to how Phil views that tournament, knowing that he couldn't have done, realistically, couldn't have done any better and still lose. I don't know how you come to grips with that or come to terms with that. Is he able to move on for something like that

or does it stick with him? Well, the saving grace is the heat one. You know what I mean? Phil has never won the Open Championship and that had happened this year. I mean I can't speak for Phil, but I'd be out on the ledge. You know what I mean? It would be a brutal thing to deal with because I was in denial. That's kind of why I got emotional in 2013 when he won because I wasn't denial about how big and important that tournament is and you know Phil hadn't had all that much success.

It's just such an amazing week and I'm always, you know, we caddy on the greatest tour in the world over here on the PGA tour. It's amazing and I wouldn't change the thing about it, but the Open Championship is a pretty darn special event to go out there. It's, you know, especially when it's in Scotland. And it's just amazing. And yeah, I'm so grateful to Philhood wanted because otherwise, you would have made this year incredibly tough to deal with. Yeah, it's remarkable considering the early lack

of success in his career at the open, how it's viewed by many as his best chance to win majors these days. So it's amazing how it's transitioned into that. But a few more questions and I'll let you go. I'm taking up a lot of your time and it's much appreciated. But I'm just curious what your thoughts are on. What's something that goes into cattying that most fans outside the rubbs don't recognize

or don't realize that you got to do every week or something that's way harder than it looks? looks. Wow. I would say certainly you know any county worth of assaults going to be out there walking the course you know once or twice so you're looking the golf course before you see your player. Another thing that you that people might be surprised about is how much the weather plays in the club selection. It's just crazy these guys, they hit the ball so hard and so flush that the sun going behind the clouds and the temperature going from 75 to 65 can significantly affect your club selection. One year at Tucson Phil had to make par on the last hole at Tucson National. Very early in his career to win the tournament. You know, you know, you're trying to just stack up as many wins as you can. It was probably something like 94, 95. And he drove it the fairway on the last hole. And there was a ruling up on the 18th

green with the group in front of us. And we had something like, you know, 203 yards. And you're, you know, you're in the desert so the ball goes forever and it's 75 degrees. And as this ruling was taking place, the sun went behind the mountains because it was late in the afternoon. And the temperature dropped significantly. And I remember he hit four iron on the front edge of the green and two put it to win the tournament. So that kind of shows you how much with those guys, you know, just the weather can affect things. So I would say that probably the thing that would surprise people the most. Yeah, well, I didn't realize it was that much depth. But what event out there treats the caddies the best? Ah, great question. Let's see. Well, the masters is up there. Charlotte's tremendous. I don't want to leave anybody out, but it's really gotten quite good here of late in terms

of parking and food and stuff like that. And guys are really aware. And I got to say that I think the guy that just took up to Jay Monahan, who's the new commission, the tour, things are only going to get better. He's, I don't know if you're ahead of conversation with a guy, but he's an amazingly impressive guy. And I just, I think everything on the tour is going to get better. Moving forward as Jake kind of runs the show.

Very good. Five years ago, you told golf.com, you don't see Phil playing on the senior tour. I'm sure there's a question you get a lot. He's now four years away from being eligible. Has anything changed there? I might hedge on that a little bit just because Phil's very, very competitive and I'm certainly part of what he makes him successful. And I think that he's going to want that competition and listen to the

way he's thinking and the way he's playing and the fact that he's, you know, I think a lifetime member of the tour because he's got over 20 victories or something like that or he's exempt for life, you know, that he can continue to play as long as he wants to play. You know, I think that, you know, if there was a U.S US senior open at a really cool course, I might hedge a little bit and say I could possibly see him playing that event. But he's going to be playing somewhere. But you think he's going to be pegging on the PGA tour well into his 50s then? I do. I definitely do. I think his health knock on wood seems to be the most but it's been really good throughout his career.

I just think that he wants to compete and he wants to compete against the best. He's going to be out there for a while. Alright, last one is maybe a tough one to end on, but if you're to think back to one moment, shot, conversation, anything that best defines the relationship between you and Phil, what's the first thing that comes to mind? It would be the shot out of the trees on 13th Augusta, at a 2010 Masters. Just, you know, I mean, that story has been told, you know, a lot, and I don't know if you

want to hear it or you don't. But the thing about Phil is he's one of those guys that when he's out there on Sunday at a tournament that he's that he's containing and he can tell you verbatim every single name on the scoreboard what hold they're on and how many under par there are he's just going to basically memorize it and that week was all about chasing, chasing, chasing because you know even with the he made two eagles on Saturday on 13 and 14 and almost eagle 15 and to try and catch I think at the time Westwood and you're just trying to you're just trying to get out in front so it wants to lead obviously and I think everybody does and you know we got there he hit that ball into the trees up on 13 and you

know if you look at that shot on television the trees it looks like there's a decent gap in the two trees but the TV didn't do that that shot justice in that the trees were quite a the two trees he was going between were quite a ways apart I think they were like eight or ten feet apart which made the gap much smaller I think it was about the width of a box of a dozen balls. And I got up there and I gave him the yard. He had something like 204 yards. And I just felt sure he was going to tell me

that he was going to go forward into. So I asked and he said, yeah, I'm definitely going there. What club do you like? And so I told him, we were discussing five or six iron. I told my thought I you know I liked hard six he liked hard six also and then as a caddy You're kind of just taking your players temperature, you know is he 80% in is yet 100% in and so I was trying to think a little bit about how it could go back at him in terms of You know how is he really feeling here and up in front of us KJ Troy Mr Mr. Six-footer. And as a result of missing that putt it was the first time I think Phil led the whole week. I think actually he became

tied for the lead there because we kind of heard a murmur in the crowd and I asked one of the camera men. And so I went back to Phil and I said, hey man, I said here's the deal. I don't change what you want to do, but you're now leading. Do you want to maybe pitch this out, given the fact you're the best wedge player on the tour, you got a great chance of making four. And he said to me, listen, he said, at some point today, I'm going to have to hit a really great shot under a lot of pressure. I'm going to do it right now, which was A, what he was going to do, but it was also my signal to get the heck out of the way and let him hit the shot.

And he did. And it was arguably the most famous shot I'll ever had in his life. And it was awesome, but to me, it kind of just encapsulates the kind of confidence that he plays with. He plays aggressively. He's always said he would do that and he's done that. It's been an incredibly fun 25 years for me watching this guy kind of play as straight and I was just kind of grateful to be there at that moment throughout

his whole career. I can think of no better way to wrap up the No Laying Up podcast than with that story right there. With that, I'm going to let you go, bones. Thank you so much for spending an hour of your time, best of luck with your rehab, get the golf clubs out. Hopefully there's not too much dust on them. And I'd Best of luck with your rehab. Get the golf clubs out. Hopefully there's not too much dust on them.

And I'd love to do this again sometime. This was an absolute blast. No, I appreciate you having me on. Congratulations. It's an honor of your success. I hope you have a great holidays. Thanks, you two bumps. Okay, good night.

Good night, club. Be the right club today. Yes! Yay! That is better than most. Better than most. Better than most.