No Laying Up - Golf Podcast - NLU Podcast, Episode 614: CJ Cup Recap + Zach Helfand on LIV

Episode Date: October 24, 2022

Rory wins the CJ Cup at Congaree as he reclaims the top spot in the world rankings.  We fight off some jet lag to praise Rory's continued run of outstanding golf and highlight our favorite moments from the week. We also break down the latest on the newly minted elevated events on the 2023 PGA Tour schedule and our experience this week in South Korea at the LPGA BMW Ladies Championship. Then in part two (1:08:15) Soly is joined by Zach Helfand, a writer for the New Yorker, for a deep dive into his article on LIV and his insights from reporting at the Boston event, interviewing Saudi officials, the political element to the tour, and his take on what lies ahead. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

I'm going to be the right club today. Yes. That is better than most. I'm not in. That is better than most. Better than most. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to the No Laying a podcast, Sally here. Don't really know what it's seven o'clock p.m. Sunday night here in the Eastern times on the United States. I don't know what time my body thinks it is.

TC is here as well. I assume dealing with the same things I'm dealing with here regarding jet lag. Yeah, I stopped over at the local coffee shop before the pod to get caffeinated. I was struggling at about four o'clock this afternoon. I did everything I possibly could to immediately try to get back on the the US sleep schedule. It's not working great so far. Joining us as well from the Eastern time zone, Mr. Neal, Schuster, hello Neal. Good evening gentlemen. I've been here all week.

Quiet week on the NLU front. I got a lot of work done with you, clowns, crossing the Pacific. Glad to have you back from the DMZ. Glad you had a good time. And I will say it's chilly season. My wife and I made up some chilly tonight. It's getting cold. I'm starting to get a little bit of a cold going up here that the weather's turning So yeah, happy to be here. No, you sound great. You really sound wonderful Thank you. What's your chill strategy? Well, I was gonna make brunch with stew and then we decided to mix it up

So Carson got a recipe from her sister You know, the chili had some potatoes in it, which was a surprise. I had it with potato Sweet potato in it, but it actually surprise. I don't actually with potato, sweet potato in it. But it actually was a good texture mix up. So I'm pretty happy with the result. Anyone's interested, I'll try to dig the recipe up. It was much more Carson making it than me, but I did eat it. TC and I were on the road this past week,

as we mentioned to Korea. I listened to TC, as soon as we got back, I took a look with great pride at my OGO mutant travel Bag. I've had this thing, I thought back to it summer of 2017, is when it was sent to me, you know, five and a half years for a golf travel bag. But in reality, with how much we travel and how much we're bringing our golf clubs, I'd say it's probably 20 to 25 years worth of travel. It has gone into this thing and it is only just now starting to show a little bit of wear and tear to the point where I can at least

start thinking about shopping at ojo.com for a new golf travel bag. I know you got a lot of, you keep a cycle going, see I kind of stick with one thing for a while, I'm sure you got five or six different options going here. No, no, I've had my alpha convoy mid for the last, probably two and a half years, now almost three years, and it's gray, I will say, get a slightly different color travel bag for people.

Don't don't just go with the standard black every time because nobody will ever take your travel bag. If it's a different color than everybody else's. Or you can use stickers to the soliom with you. I've had the mutant for probably the exact same amount of time. It is showing a little bit of wear and tear, but that thing has been a quality piece of equipment. Has not failed me yet. I have not had any of the, you know,

I have not had to take to social media to parade Delta about a broken driver or anything like that. And I would attribute that to the OGO meeting. I cannot say enough great things about the wonderful almost six years that we've had, but in reality, it's like dog years really. It's closer to 25, as we said, with how much we are on the road. You can find out about the many designs and models of the travel bags that they have at ojo.com oji.com.

Rory, how guys, I just got to started by saying this, how long ago does it feel like we were having major, major wedge problems with Rory and it was just drive it down the middle and do absolutely nothing with it. The guy's been playing the best golf in the world for a year now and he is rightfully returned to the top spot in the OWGR. I think as predicted on this podcast, right? You guys haven't really showed up for the block party in a while. So I felt the block party was was premature. It was a premature block party. I don't know. I would say that that I would give DJ credit. I think he was early on this on this block with me. You know, I was going to go down

the with the ship with worry. But I think it's all you nailed it. Like I saw those, I think three weeks ago, four weeks ago, somebody posted the wedge stats, like the difference over a year with his proximity to the hole inside like I think 120 yards. It's, it's, it's crazy. I mean, how much better he's gotten on that one part of the game that everybody was saying, like, if he could just learn how to hit a wedge, that would be the difference. And it seems like he did. So credit, all credit goes to Rory for, you know, fix in a problem. That's awesome. It took him a little longer than it should have. We should acknowledge that. There were many years of watching this, watching this happen for a very. That's awesome. It took him a little longer than it should have. We should acknowledge that. There were many years of watching this watching this happen for a very long period of time. That was also part of the story of like, how could it, how could it not be,

how could you not be good at wedges at this point? But man, it's kind of, kind of don't know me today too. Like when COVID hit, he was top-fiving pretty much every event leading up into that player. He was the best player on the planet as of March 2020. Got put in the cooler for three months. When he came back, he was just not the same. And then that season just lasted forever and ever and ever. And he just couldn't really get out of that rut. Never since things turned over, really a gust of you look back at it.

Ever since the runner up at the Masters, he has played just awesome, awesome golf. And I know it's not getting it done at the old course kind of, I don't know, I say clouded a lot of views on what, how productive of a season it has been for him. The close calls in majors, I think, mean a lot more than just finishing T30, which is what he kind of had turned into there for a little while. And matching it with winning the tour championship,

I forget where one last year's CJ Cup, I think he won the Canadian Open this year as well. Now winning this has been, it just feels very normal to watch him win golf tournaments again. And you know, longevity is something that is not a guarantee in golf. And that's kind of a little journey I've been on looking at the numbers as well today. But reaction to to Roy's win at Congri. You know what, Sully, I got some concerns. He's only fifth in the FedEx cup. So he's regained the number one spot in the world, but he's fifth in the FedEx cup.

Obviously, that's because he's only, this was his first event of the new season. Like, I'm going to go back and pull the audio from the master's recap we did, because I think we were all pretty bullish on him after that. And it was kind of like, hey, he's, he's on the upswing. It may not happen immediately here. It may not happen over the next two to three months.

But finally, it feels like Roy's best golf is ahead of him. And even now it feels like he's playing better golf. And he did when he was on top of the world in 2012, 2013, 2014. He feels like a much more complete player. Before he was just hitting, hitting Dingers and probably hitting for low average, it feels like he's raised his OPS. You know, but he's taking walks.

He's taking walks. He's hitting the opposite field ball. He's hitting the off speed stuff. It's impressive. I would actually rewind even farther than a Master masters. I think the rock bottom was after that rider cup last year. Yeah. How emotionally was about, you know, how bad they got beat, how he felt like he let the team down. Some pretty vulnerable stuff from Rory. And then he goes out and and wins the was it Zozo or CJ Cup? It was CJ, right? So is it at Summit in Las Vegas? And I just thought that was like

an epic bounce back that I don't, I don't know. I think we gave him credit for it, but looking back, it's like, man, I think that's where he kind of bottomed out. And then it wasn't, you know, he wins the CJ Cup and he's kind of quiet in the early part of last or last season. And then you're right, like the masters is we're going to start building some momentum. But I just remember that CJ Cup, you're like, wow, what a bounce back after the, the disappointment of the Ryder Cup. So I mean, just a massive shout out to Roy because it's fun to watch. Some could argue that the CJ Cup is, is the, the South Korean national open.

Like this is a big win, kind of the only big event of the fall. And it's possibly even a bigger win, right? Well, this is a thing I came up with that is really catching on and a lot of people are saying this everywhere when you know, you have the the horse for course, the people that win at the, you know, win it the same course every year, but the monster for sponsors, if you can win the same event in two different locations like Max Homa has done with the Wells Fargo. And now Roy McElroy's officially a monster for sponsor,

which many people are just throwing that out there now, but a lot of people forget that I came up with that because it's such a common phrase out there in the vernacular. But just what I like, Roy also finished fifth at the Wells Fargo, eighth at the PGA. He finished T5 at the US Open. He won the Canadian Open as we mentioned.

He finished third at the Open. He finished T8 at BMW won the tour championship. T2 at the BMW PGA. He finished fourth at the Italian Open and he finished T4 at the Alfred Dunhill Banks before winning this event. It's just been a not a lot of people have beaten Rory on the golf course and a lot of those felt like his C- minus game that you know was a top five finish and And it just, it can't be emphasized enough. I know a lot of people are kind of over the cheesy nature of how much Rory has done off the course and the Rory worshipping that has gone on. But there's a good reason why the people that are closest and most familiar with the game have great appreciation for the leadership role he's taking in that front. And the fact that he's playing good golf on top of that It's just kind of rehashing what we said a few weeks ago at the tour championship. It's just really remarkable

It really is he's he's got to be worn out, man They they flashed also a winning percentage up on the telecast today I what 10% win percentage over the I think it was an age bracket like maybe it was under the age of 35 I think JT was next with like 8 maybe it was under the age of 35. I think JT was next with like 8%. Of course, tires like 23% within that same age bracket. So put some perspective on it. But yeah, you kind of for, you know, it's easy to be up on Roy for the major, coming up short in the majors, but like a 10% win percentage is pretty heavy stuff.

There's a great tool on data golf called PGA Tour Career evolutions. You can go to it and you can see. And every where he's got 23 wins in 221 career starts. That's better than 10% winning percentage. He's the only only one except for that other guy. Now that looked that other guy, I think at 57 wins in his first two hundred twenty one starts, which is unreal. But yeah, he outpaces Phil. He outpaces Ernie Ls.

He outpaces Jordan Speed. He outpaces VJ Singh. Justin Thomas, you name it. He outpaces Phil, he outpaces Ernie Ls, he outpaces Jordan Speeth, he outpaces Vijay Singh, Justin Thomas, you name it, he outpaces him all. And you know, you look back at it too, and it's like, speed one, like 10 or 11 or so of his first 120 starts, he had about a 10% win percentage through his first 120 starts, and that's where I come back to this longevity thing.

And I think back on Jason Day, I think back on all the other dudes that traded in and out of World No. 1 around the time that Rory took over in 2012. And I looked back at that 2012 OWGR, the week that Rory ascended to it for the first time in 2012 and doing it, it is insane what has happened to a lot of those guys. It's just a rarity for somebody to reach No. 1 in the world 10 years apart from when they first did guys. It's just is a rarity for somebody to reach number one in the world 10 years apart from when they first did it. It's crazy. I'll say the rare time that I'll ever kind of diminish what Tiger did. Tiger was kind of planned against the plumbers and firemen. He was there at the beginning of his career. So, you know, I'm just going to throw that out there.

Joey Cindallars now walk it through that door. Exactly. Well, hold on. So you did bring it up like the off the course stuff, you know, it's been very well documented here on, on this pod and around, you know, the world of golf, but it's really something to see Roy almost call a shot. I feel like for years there, he was almost, I don't want to say a drift, but like didn't feel that mentally engaged, you know, it was kind of the issue.

I think we had with was like, man, Roy D. Care, do you not care? Like, you know, life's not worth much. You care too much. There was just, yeah, like it didn't feel like he was mentally locked in. And it almost took like maybe an enemy or, or for him to almost declare to borrow a term from from from from declare his fealty. But I think there's something really impressive, powerful, whatever you want to say to almost be like, you know, here like rally everybody rally around me, which like it or not, that's what he's done. And then also go out and ball out and and kind of, you know, back it up with his play on the course.

Like I don't want to just breeze over that. To me, that's very, that's very powerful. It's very impressive. And I think he deserves a lot of credit. You know, whether you agree with them or not, it's, it's, it's, it's very impressive. And kind of a weird start to the year, too. Like, I know he won a CJ Cup last year, but there were some doubts, you know, like he got third in Dubai. That was the fifth week of last year, but there were some doubts. You know, like he got third and Dubai. That was the fifth week of the year, kind of beginning in February there. But then T10 and Genesis T13 at API where he was the overwhelming favorite, I think, players T33 misses the cut at the Texas open.

So he's, he's which, which could be a national open, by the way. Very, very much, you know, kind of a little bit unsteady or a little bit, you know, Hey, which row are we going to get this year? And then like you said, Sally, for masters onward, in the midst of all this bullshit going on, he just took it to another level. And I can't wait for 2023 to see what Rory does. Hopefully it starts on the West Coast swing and kind of continues onward from there.

But yeah, it's super impressive because it's towards been an absolute turmoil and he made his bed and fully committed to it pretty early on. So I was gonna say Neil, to your point on, I'll take credit for lighten the fire under Rory's ass as well, because I was really hard on them after the British Open last year when you kind of downplayed like, yeah, my life's

great. I got my family like what? And it was kind of like, no, that's like not the competitor we've like grown to really root for over the years. And he reflected back on those comments last December on the podcast with us. And I think that there was just a change in mentality of some kind of like, well, you can't just like coast through this and like use how great your life is as a crutch to, you know, not fulfilling your career ambitions. And man, it's just the only the only downside to any of this is just like, man, these, these runs don't last forever and to do it in this part of the year when you're as far away from majors as you possibly can be, just stings a little bit for him, I'm sure. It just, like, we know for a fact

he won't be the same exact play. He's gonna go through some kind of fluctuation between now and the masters, right? He's not gonna stay as peak from now until then, but you can't control when you peak in golf, if you could. But like, barring injury, he feels like, this feels sustainable. It feels a lot more sustainable than the putter got super, super, super hot or like it feels like his game's about as well, like

well-rounded as it's been a really long time, if ever, right? I agree. It's not a fluke, you run. Like watching this final round today, the back nine, everything, even finishing Bogey Bogey, everything just feels under control. His speed on puts like, you know, it just looks really, really solid. And then God, he's just so swaggy off the tee. It's like, it roars back, you know what I mean? It's like, dang, man, it's just impressive golf the last three to six months.

That driving it, I don't think he's ever driven it. I mean, he's already a strength, is already a strength that it's gotten even better. Like, that's the really crazy part. Yeah, it's that just really cocky like, Meg, like massive draw, you know, it's like, it's like a, it's that old fearless Rory T-shot and you almost get, you know, you take it for granted

but it's like today, I was like, maybe was the scale at Congurion on TV kind of, it looks very wide and vast and, you know, there's these big fairway alleys. And so that shot tracer against that backdrop was just very impressive. So I kind of hit me of like, man, don't take this for granted. Like when Roy's moving at off the tee and feeling swaggy,

it's really, really fun to watch. And he didn't even have his best stuff today, right? Like he kind of leaked oil a little bit in certain spots. I come back to, I think Roy's played a lot of golf at O'Hoopie. And O'Hoopie and Congurie are pretty similar. And this is a style of golf that not a lot of guys on tour play very often. It's different from your week in, week out,

tour stuff with the waste areas and some pretty wild lines off tees and, and, you know, some serious width out there and kind of hunting for angles. And it seemed like he's comfortable with that style of golf. It's like, you know, it's like Linksy, Link's adjacent, but also there's some serious penalty if you miss in the wrong spots. That's a really great take because I have not been to Congri but Bendohoopie and that was the exact watching on TV. It was kind of like just watching the way that the sand flies up out of those fairways watching the ball how it behaves around those greens, the

sharp cut bunker edges and the short grass around the greens and you know how severe some of the slopes are once you get on them. I think a lot of the places the tour plays when you do miss some of these greens. Like I think back to the drivable part, four on the back nine, and there's a number 15, I think, watch and do try to chip to that pin today from the left side. Like, you couldn't hold the green,

because it was so dramatic once you got on it. And that's just not something they do see every week. It was, it was a fun golf course to watch, man. This second time Congri's host of tournament, they hosted the Palmetto last summer. But man, this kind of golf course, and this part of the world on that type of grass is meant for the fall. And that was about as good as I can remember a PGA tour course playing. It's I don't think it's an outrageously good design. It seems like a very good design, well designed

golf course. And all the elements that we do like to see of, look, it's not just penal rough right off the fairway. You're going to get some funky lies. You're going to get, be in some spots you don't want to be in off the tee with some sandy stuff and some stray, deep, long grass that, you know, you make it a good lie. It may not kind of pine hersty. And I just think that makes for the most entertaining golf watching guys try to play to the edges of the fairways and cut corners and, you know, play the safest line away from the water hazards and things like that was just way, way, way more exciting than, hey, here's a fair way with pretty narrow and two bunkers on each side.

Totally. I think it was far, far better than the last go around for the, for the June event. But yeah, it's just, it's visually arresting on TV. You know, there's, there's sharp lines, there's good light, there's, you know, the course just like there's shadows. It just looks cool, right? You know for for how little they televised of it, you know all week. It's it's I'm glad it was there. Right. That's where I'm kind of torn on the event is a Korean event and has should have been in Korea the last several years. Obviously for other reasons could not have been. I'm not really positive why it couldn't have been this year. It still thinks it would feel like it would have made more sense with the Zozo going back to Japan as well. But it does sound like it is going back to Korea next year, potentially at Hazelie 9 bridges back on the mainland.

The previous versions were at the at nine bridges, which is on Jeju Island, not able to really pull the same sole crowd as I would hope that they would pull next year. But I'm torn because this seems like a great golf course for this tournament. Yet at the same time, it probably does belong in Korea. I agree. I think it's, I'm stoked for it to go back to Korea. I think, you know, we saw it firsthand in the golf culture and the golf fans there are rabid. You know, shit, maybe, maybe that's the one next year that they mean that they need to make a

You know a co-sanctioned event with the LPGA or the KLPGA Because that would be that would be the place to do it would be Korea, right? Yeah, that would be interesting. Yeah, what what tournament can move to Congerito because I feel like I feel like I like to watch a PGA tour golf course at that golf course. I don't know what Obviously that they they should go for the hat trick. Three different sponsors, three different tournaments, all held at the same golf course.

I think the tough part about Congress, you can't really have a full field event there. I mean, I think it's very difficult to even have this event there. There's nowhere for a lot of guys to stay. I think people have to stay in Savannah and drive over. The one that makes the most sense would be RSM from Sea Island, but I know guys love going to Sea Island. And that's an easy, you know, it's kind of

the tournaments. Yeah. And it's a sponsor, you know, it's a sponsor. Like it's like, hey, let's bring clients here and they stayed the cloister and all that stuff. So, but yeah, that would be the one that sticks out to me. John Rom really, really good tournament this week. He was, he was, the butcher was hot and bothered today. He had a snap hook on the night pole. It was good left. Of course, it hits a tree. Of course, it goes left. Five times worth of that gets spit out at my ghost left. I stand behind my product butcher. Oh, God. That's a good stuff. Ram's going to love going to back to Korea though next year with the the beef over there. Yeah, you know

He's gonna feel right at home. That's right. Rom you know, I think some signs of life from Rom I think it's been you know, he's played better golf and probably we've even given credit for it Just hasn't really had the win through even that close of finishes to match it But he kind of got laid a little bit of an egg today. I was hoping he'd give Roy a little bit better of a run. And I wish I could really kind of put my fingerist on, you know, why his putting is actually sneaky. Been good this past year. I think we were pretty hard on it earlier in the year, but the numbers show out that he's put it actually really well and just a weird kind of season for Ron. I can't really place it. I know he's won the, a few weeks ago in Spain and he won the Mexican Open. A few national open. I was going to say TC. I know that gets you jacked up. He just

could kind of run it off national open wins, keeping the, you know, keeping the burner on. He's not really hot, but he's just kind of simmering, you know, but those are, though, don't, don't downplay those wins. I know those mean a lot to TC. And he finished T2 at the BMW PGA as well. So he's also kind of finishing this season kind of going into this weird time period about his hot as he gets, unfortunately, for him. But good golf tournament, really good golf tournament. Not great viewing windows. Let's just say it. Not great. Well, I was going to say I feel like Roy played, you know, saw it like he won the golf tournament, but he did get crowned a little bit like, you know,

Kurt Kittiyama tried to mount a little bit of a charge early in the back nine, but Rom, they both just kind of gave him the way too much of a cushion. Like I didn't feel like there was a lot of stress on Rory and he was, he was front running pretty hard most of the day. I was, I got a little worried on eight, when he, when he three jacked eight, eight such a tough one. It's like 530 or 540 yards. It was visually intimidating T-shot. And then, you know, Rory just pipes one down the middle, three, three 63 down the middle. And misses a, you know, four and a half, five footer there. And then kind of limped in a little bit, but, you know, Bowie's 17 and 18, but nobody else really

did anything down the stretch. He had built up that lead and it's kind of what you got to do. He had a two or three shot lead at one point. Nobody was really giving chase. Too much to Luke Elfey's dismay there. I know he had called for Ram to take the ball and and you know just spike it on Rory. Ram's not happy about this being you know Rory's tour and all that. Ram's going to assert himself. He decidedly did not today. I do I do we're going to fight a way to work that with it there somewhere. Guys, I've got a developing your rational and I hate to even use the word hate because it's not hate, it's just a dislike, it's a total me thing. I don't like watching Kirk Cadeonna play golf.

It's the golf swing. It just feels like everything is gonna go right and he's trying to save it and that aesthetic, I can't, I just can't do it. It just is not working for me in any way. I'm sure he's a lovely guy. Has absolutely nothing to do with him. I just don't like watching the style of golf.

I can't do it. I just don't like watching his style of golf. I can't do it. I just got to declare that. I think that's fair. I like the idea of Kurt Kinayama, but I don't need to watch him. You know, it's kind of like, I think he's almost up in the top 50, huh?

He's played some serious golf. He said a lot of really good finishes. He finished what runner-up. He's got a rocket. At the mix can open, he had another runner-up at the Scottish open, I believe this, this summer as well. Seventh, the Italian open a few weeks ago.

He's, he's up to 41st in the world. And he was a manipulator back in the day. He played the European tour as an American to boost that world ranking. That, that, you know, Peter, you line in Brooks, Kepp, Geralt that doesn't involve going to live. So, you know, I wish back a little bit, Sally. I agree with you that Kurt Kinne-Yamaz move is not attractive, right?

It's not, there's nothing sexy about his golf swing, but I desperately want there to be more like homegrown, creative, unique swings in golf. I think that makes it more interesting. So I have to take the bad with the good. So because I'm looking for a little bit of a differentiation, I appreciate Kirk Kiddiyama and the, yes, like truly trying to flip it at the bottom on every swing. But then worth acknowledging that he's generating like 185 miles an hour

of ball speed. Like, it doesn't look like it, but he is like getting through the zone with some, you know, some velocity. So I think, you know, he deserves a, some credit for, for making it work, even though it doesn't look super pretty. Well, that's fair. And he does get it done and gets the ball in the hole. It is pure aesthetic thing for me. It's kind of like Gary Woodland. I also just like weirdly don't like watching

him play golf and I don't really know why, but just something laborious about how he how he goes about it that does not bring me pleasure. I just that's that I that's super fair. I hear what you're saying. Like it is not pretty, but it's a little bit like certain certain architecture, you know, like certain modern architecture. I'm like, I don't really like the way not pretty, but it's a little bit like certain architecture, you know, like certain modern architecture. I'm like, I don't really like the way that looks, but I understand that it's like, you know, it's good design. I get the, you know, if you walk me through the theory of it, it's like, oh, no, that

definitely, now I know why you're generating all that ball speed or whatever, but it doesn't really like appeal. I know what you mean, it doesn't appeal to you aesthetically. That's fair. Guys, can we talk cage Lee for a sec? Before we do that, I've got to tell you about guys about one thing, which is when personal finance connects you to both your funds and the stuff that matters, that's money, and that's cash app.

KH Lee just made a bunch of cash this past week, and that is my link here, TC, and you know what else is money? Choosing your own cash tag as money. The Saudis trying to rent out the Augusta National Clubhouse with money. That's also money, which we have an interview with Zach Halfand from the, from the New Yorker at the end of this podcast. By the way, forgetting you moved your car for Friday's street cleaning and not getting a ticket.

That's money. Excited. Wow. Snoop Dogg, Travis Scott and Nelly performing at the live championship this week. That's money. Nelly, the rapper or Nelly quarter, I think is the rapper. I could double check that one though, but Columbia losing a home game to Dartmouth this past.

I believe that's a game. Homecoming game. That's money lost in donations, I believe, but that is money. Sending spending, saving, investing, splitting, tipping, donating, gifting, or just typing numbers, all in a single finance app. That's money and that's cash app. It's fantastic. I use it every single day, multiple times a day,

check it out on how my stocks are doing, download cash app from the App Store, Google Play Store today, and add your cash to the 80 million and counting using the app. I might have to update this script. I'm sure it's more than 80 million now because people have been signing up like crazy. When you use code NLU, you get a free $15

plus $10 goes to youth on course, and that's money. So use code NLU, you get a free $15 plus $10 goes to youth on course and that's money. So use code NLU with the cash app free $15 and $10 goes towards junior golf. T.C. What did you say about K H Lee? Well, first of all, on the that's money train. I need to report out to Neil. Neil, Sally gave me the hard sell on crypto when we were at the Sky Club. I'm sure he did. You were at Atlanta on the way to the CJ. No, I was asking.

I was at our way to Korea. And we were in the E Sky Club. And you made a very, very convincing pitch. He said, everybody, you know, all these, all these, all these fluffers are getting washed out. And it's time to get in. Sure. Soon. It sounds Not going to be.

But like all the bills, you know, you guys just do a business in the Sky Club. That's that's true. See sweet stuff. That's great. That's money. That's money. That's money. It's truly money. Uh, speaking of money, K H Lee, I just want to give him a shout out, man. It's he's 31 years old. He's kind of a lay bloomer. Like how old's Ricky? Ricky's like 30, 33, 33. Okay. So, okay, actually, 31 years old finishes solo third this week. And from a world ranking perspective, he's gone from, he was very steadily, like he kind of floated around in the 100s there in 2015, 2016, had a regression, 2017 to 2020, 2016 had a regression 2017 to 2020 finishes the year 2022 72 in the world and then 2021 2022 he's got two wins he's got a solo second he's got now a solo third to begin the year

just a lot steadier he's cut his mish cuts down like crazy he's up to 33rd in the world and he's a guy that I love watching play Golf. And he's done good stuff on, on, you know, a variety of different golf courses too. So I think, I don't know, I just, like, I enjoy watching this guy play golf. He's a flusher. He hits the shit out of the ball. His iron play is, he's like, kind of like Sungjae.

Like, like, these Korean guys are just flushers with the irons. It's marvelous to watch. So I just flushers with the irons. It's marvelous to watch. So I just wanted to get that out there. It does seem like there's a, especially long tail to this president's cup run from this internet, from these international guys. If dude's really producing here into this fall. And it is funny here, you say that he produces on many different types of golf courses with

his two wins being, of course, at the same golf course, the course that you hate. I don't disagree, but I do find that I run it. No, but like there's like TPC, Craig T Nelson or, you know, Craig James or whatever it is, like terrible golf course, but like Congres, the exact opposite of that. I agree. I agree. I just had to I had to point that out. That was funny. So, uh, Tommy Fleetwood T4, you guys, you know, you got to rely on me to bring it up. You guys never want to give Tommy any credit for anything. Only when Tommy back doors is that considered a great week for you. And if it was anybody, if that was Roy that had done that, you've been

he started the back door. You would have said it was it was worthless. Yeah, or or fee now. This all argument with fee now is that exact. Yeah, back door T4 is great. Get out of here with that. No, that's stronger than that. The argument with phenal was never was never backdoor. It was always like, oh, Tina, like, like phenal is tied for the lead with eight to play. Like, of course, he's not going to win. Like Tommy, Tommy shot 73 on Thursday. Played like shit. Shot 66, 66, 65. How can you ride this hard against phenal and still ride for Tommy that is not one of the PJ Tories? I've never, I've always been the mediator on the Finault stuff. I've never

gone that's true. That's true. Absolutely. I wish you could count how many times Finault has gassed it, which listen, there's, there's, you have, there's merit with that argument. And TC has, has set through the Slack channel. So you're gonna apologize. So you're gonna apologize for Fino. I bet that it's over 10 times that that exact quote has come through on related to Fino. TC, you do not mediate that, you're not,

that you're not, we're not doing that. We're not rewriting that. And it was, and it was, and it was, and it was, make us end up being the bad guy when it comes to Tommy. I go, we get messages from Tommy and Finna. Like, why do you guys think I stink? Like we don't.

We just have to check TC. You got to understand how this works. No one has rooting more for art. For 24 within us. He's a certified flusher. Aaron Wise continues to play great golf. Hindsighted price should have been the presence cup. Team.

Yeah. If I can share it up. I would have made a stink about that leading up to it. But well, you were complacent as hell and didn't think it mattered who was on the team. It didn't, but okay, that's fine. Some signs of life from Sam Burns, kind of riding that, you know, post-President's Cup. Wait, seven? I picked him to win a little early on that call, but I agree with you T.C. Yeah, I think there's some signs of life, which is great.

We got Ali Hodges citing. We've got Brendan Todd four rounds in the 60s. Jason Day, T 11. Look at this. Look at this. He's he's he's he's he's trying to force him to hold down the leaderboard. He wouldn't see. I've seen him.

No, I've been seeing do it. I'm just going to let him get the Taylor Montgomery because we got to point that one out. Yeah. And then Tom Kim, T 11, you know, just rock solid. Started out with the 66, kind of a big week for him playing with the rib. I thought the rib's a presser when Tom Kim asked him the question. That was really, really like not in a corny way,

maybe in a corny way, but I thought that was a really cool answer that he gave of, hey, protect your time. Like, you know, Tom was kind of messing with them, snuck into the presser. I'm sure PJ tour comms team put him up to it. But and and and Rory kind of flipped it around and said, hey, like, like, I gave a really, really substantive, you know, insightful intellectual piece of advice and just said, hey, protect your time.

You're going to have all sorts of sponsors. And that's something that I know Rory's done a good job of over the last few years of saying no to things and saying no to a lot of money for things. And just kind of, hey, focus on the golf first and foremost because none of this other stuff happens without the golf kind of thing. So good showing for him this week,

he's continues to just keep the pedal down. Solly, Taylor Montgomery, four years. Well, I was just going to say to the Rory point, like Rory, he literally does turn down like seven figure things that are just going to cost him a couple of days time. And it's like super easy to say like, you know, for this price, I'm going to go spend this corporate day with this, with these people. And why wouldn't I do that? That makes total sense, you know, on a really granular basis, but an overall perspective of, I'm on the road this much. I'm going to offer up my sponsors these exact dates for this year and the rest is my time. It's a blessing. You have one, you have a lot of money, but it also also probably contributing greatly

to his success. And yeah, him counting spot, he's like, I count five sponsors on your shirt, just be conscious of your time. That was very, I think top kid got a little sheep, a little red face to that of like, oh, shit, he's calling me out. But it was really, really good advice. But yeah, Taylor Montgomery, I'm way in on this. He shot nine under day 62 to finish T 13. He's put up some, some big numbies this fall. And I'm, again, I put them on rider cup watch for next year. He's up to seventh, the FedEx cup, you know, a little bit of a 71 on Friday, 73 on Saturday. Good week. Keegan stays at first in the FedEx cup, which is highly,

highly, highly concerning. A couple of things, clear out notes from, from Congary, they could have roaring ROM together today. If they would just get rid of this something where they have to send out the guys in the order that they came in it on the Saturday because that that would have made for a much more entertaining final round. I would have thought it's a TV product. You got to change it. Speaking of which TV TV windows were a disgrace three hours with the best players in the world. I know something. I know this is a weird thing in the calendar with how they're treating these fall events and I know they're going up against football and probably don't want

to invest too heavily in them, but and you know, the CJ Cup, ending up back in the States, getting all these players might have been a curveball thrown to these archaic TV contracts and whatnot. I'm sure there's a million excuses, but it was freaking comical to have playoff baseball on today NFL football and the US F1 race. And they're just like, all right, we're going to throw it out there on TV, but it's going to be horrible and a lot of commercials and not that pick of a window. It is tough, man, when you got red zone and it's just, it's like, man, I'm on the pod

and I like this is tough to flip off red zone. I mean, great day at football. I also, the only complaint I really had though was not enough babygo commercials. Last year we got so much frozen food run. And I went today to Whole Foods, not carrying babygo. So, you know, another knock on Whole Foods, they've been kind of on my shit list lately, to begin with.

Costco carries them. You know, I just get a kick at a CJA, this massive conglomerate, just decided like baby go that's that's what we're pushing to the golf audience baby frozen foods. Let's go. So and KH Lee was wearing a baby go logo on a shirt as well. So I think there should be more food sponsors in golf. I think it made me hungry. We just got back from Korea and I wanted Korean dumplings, you know time I'm watching that. I think food associated with TV makes, those are great commercials. I can watch that. Money, and almost like last year, when there was, we got inundated with,

you know, BBGO ads, I was like, I've never seen any like this. And I think they were very, very effective. So I completely agree with you, cosine that, another like, and tennis, I always get a kick out of Berea, the pasta company, does like tennis sponsorships like here I am calling it out on a golf podcast because it sticks out, you know what I mean? You're like, whoa, I guess that makes sense.

They're carb loading, you know, whatever. So anyway, you know, shout out to CJ for spotting that opportunity, which also it's not like this is a, I mean, CJ, this is technically like kind of an elevated event. Like it's a pig purse. It's 10.5 million dollars. Like it's not like they're paying a discount for a fall event here and all that. Like, you know, kind of curious to see what happens

with the field for this event next year when it goes back over to Korea. Does the Zozo field get much better and then guys stay over there for two weeks or the CJ Cup field going to really suffer? We were talking to Max about it. Max was like, dude, I get depressed every year that we don't have this CJ Cup in Korea because the food is so damn good. Well, and it's also if there's no, if there's no FedEx cup points in the fall next year, how do you do these events?

I don't think we have the answer to that yet, right? I mean, I do wonder if they may consider doing some elevated events in the fall that don't count towards FedEx cup that are like, all right, we're going to put something together for you guys in the fall. And I know you guys don't want to fall behind, but how about you get together for these two events in Japan and Korea. We take this product and market it in Asia, this enormous market that's going to be crucial

to us funding the PGA tour into the future. And why don't we check off two of those that way. We had this issue where Ram and Rory are running into with the number of elevated events they're going to have to play next year plus getting their European tour starts to credit towards the Ryder Cup. I just wonder if they could find a way to make that work

because it seems, and we can talk about some of the events that were in, you know, leaked this week that are going to get elevated. Now, you know, there's not a lot of events that get kind of left behind that are totally screwed, right? It's kind of like, oh shit, the heritage got elevated. Like, I didn't realize that there were that many events, you know, that there weren't that many tournaments available

to actually get pumped up that maybe deserve it. So it feels like Scott has show up in the future and taking the international seems like a way to address a lot of the issues they have. Yeah, do you wanna do schedule stuff now? Let's do that now. I'm sure, might as well. Okay, so yeah, so I don't think the Scottish

is actually on the table for even the future. I don't think it's, yeah, just because it's the kind of the co-sanctioned DP World Tour event as well. But yeah, I don't know. I just can recover that now because I don't, I don't, I don't know. That seems like, again, I don't think the DP World Tour is getting out great from this, from all this at least from a you know a optics point of view. I think a lot of fans there are a little perturbed that you know the thought of all these events being all the elevated events being in the US. I thought the Scottish Open is an event that makes a lot of sense for a lot of the guys

to play anyways. And if you want to strengthen in this alliance, why wouldn't you want to elevate that one the week before the open championship. And so I guess I just because it's co-sanctioned, I don't know why that would not want to be one of the ones you would want to elevate. Well, I think, I think into 2014 or sorry, 2024, it's because it's going to be a smaller field. Like they don't want to inhibit those guys from spots, right?

Like they want it to be the, you know, the full field. I, for my understanding, it sounds like it'll be the, the BW went worth will be kind of the UK, you know, elevated one. But with this, so just read off the elevated event. Sure. Yeah. The, the, the events will be elevated for 2023. Again, this means they're going to 20 million dollar purses that all of the top players are going to play. Again, it's kind of, you know, I believe still to be determined how they're

going to enforce that in terms of if you want to be pip eligible, basically, you have to play all of these events. I don't know about using the word half to because I just don't know how again, how enforceable all that is, but let's just assume that means that all the top players, and I don't know what number of players that is. Uh, if you're qualified for that event, you will be playing that event. Those events are the waste management Phoenix Open, the RBC Heritage, the Wells Fargo, and the Travelers. So that brings total elevated events plus majors to be for the month of January. It's just the century tournament

of champions. For February, we have the waste, Phoenix Open and the Genesis. And in March, we have Bay Hill players and match play, all of which were previously announced as elevated or have been elevated. April, we have, of course, the Masters followed immediately by the Heritage the next week. May goes Wells Fargo and also the PGA. And then June is Memorial, US Open and Travelers. And then June is Memorial, U.S. Open and Travelers. July is the open. August is the playoff events, the St. Jude, BMW and Tor Championship. And that is the 17 events that all the top players

in the world, not from live, will be playing next year. What's your reaction to this, T.C.? First of all, I need my guys at Group O Salinas to step up and get the Mexican open up there. Yeah, I don't know. I mean, it seems like kind of more the same. They're trying to, you know, travelers and heritage, I guess. I don't know. I like both those events. They're both good courses. I think the valspars and the Hondas of the world continue to get absolutely boned? It's also just worth noting that it was also noted in Amon Lynch's article, the elevated events will not be the same in 2024.

These events worked with a schedule that has already been announced. So basically they kind of have some anchor points already in there, figuring out how to elevate events and spread them out properly. Seems like why it seems like a curious setup to me initially until I looked back at it and said, okay, I think that makes a lot of sense. Farmers not getting a bump. I was kind of surprised on, I guess, but the way it spreads out in the calendar seems to make sense from that regard. And so you're saying that they'll probably like Phoenix Heritage Wells Fargo travelers,

those are the floating elevated ones. Like it may be potentially Valspar and the John Deer, you know, like four, four different ones in 2024. Probably wouldn't put those in with it, but yeah, it'll be, it'll be probably some different ones in there. I think the big thing is just like it seems like this is all band-aided together for 23. Sure. Then 25, 24 will be totally different. I think all the momentum that they had after the Wilmington meeting with Murray and Tiger seems to have kind of been frittered away as the tour seemingly

you know, got all their hands around this and everything. And then, you know, I think they're probably kind of between a rock and a hard place here where they want to preview some of the changes and the transformation, the evolution of the tour that's coming while also knowing that it's going to look pretty damn similar next year with probably some wholesale changes coming in 24. So, yeah, I don't know. I mean, I think, you know, overall, it's just kind of a big shrug or whatever with like most things that, you know, monahan, the tour of announced over the last couple of years. My biggest question is just come down to like what yeah like how do you incentivize guys to play the international events in the fall? You just you know, net up those purses and make them gigantic and make them kind of one-off cash grab exhibition events, but they're in, you know, they're in Japan and Korea and you know places like that.

Maybe they borrow the live jet and they get them all on the plane and they take them over and, you know, exactly, exactly right, TC. I think it's probably just learning them over with money. And that's where I guess where I get a little bit excited for this is it does seem to benefit fans. It makes it a little bit more clear, which weekends I should, if I'm a golf fan, tune in, in which weekends are pretty optional, right? That's a good development, I think.

I think you are at risk of, yeah, pissing off some vowspars and some Hondas and some AT&T's, you know, that sponsor two events. That I'm sure they, I would hope that they have plans in place for that starting in 2024. This is where I think rotating some of these things in years in the future as well, make a lot of sense so that you don't shaft the same sponsors year after year and they wanna keep re-opping with you and blah, blah, blah. So, this is not a painless system.

There's always gonna be sacrifices from some of the rank and file guys as well. Some of the top guys are gonna have to make schedule sacrifices. Speed mentioned how the Dallas guys, gonna have to make schedule sacrifices speed mention How the Dallas guys? This is really tough break for them because it's I mean tough is very relatively speaking They're throwing a whole bunch of more money at golf tournaments next year and you got to play them

But if you want to play If you have to play all the elevated events here and you have a stretch where you go well as far go Straight into buyer now since straight into PGA straight straight into Schwab, straight into the Memorial. And Speed talked about how he's only played five in a row once and he's, you know, I might be rolling in Tuesday night to Memorial because that's, it's just a lot to do five weeks in a row. So, which I would say, you know, skip TPC Craig Ranch.

It sucks. Tough with AT&T sponsorship for Speed, but like that's, this is part of the like that's this is part of the deal like this is part of the new Landscape that's kind of wild to me is like AT&T is getting absolutely fucked again Right, I mean like it never fails like they can't which they got to get pebble elevated for 24 then right like that's got to be the Conversation they're having what that's but the but I guess the issue there would be it's a massive field, right? Because you guys got, you got guys spread over three courses because you want to maximize the fundraising for, you know, all the pro-AM spots for the, the Pebble Beach Foundation or the

Monterey Pinsland Foundation or whatever. So that one would seem like one that you can't really elevate, right? Unless you wanted to really upset the Apple card as far as the Pro Amus concern. Well, I have zero intel on this at all, but I would guess based on how this OWGR stuff is shaking out now, the new OWGR system, which really penalized, even if you have an 80 player field, you get penalized for that.

And compared to 160 or 156 normal, normal size fields, I just don't know if it should be or will be a done deal that the elevated events are all limited field to like 60 to 80 guys or whatever it's been report to this point. I think there's some of the of these events. I think you can still do pretty massive fields for that. I think these guys may want when they see how these world ranking points are going to shake out. I mean, it's different on the flip side, though.

If the top guys aren't playing that many of the non elevated events, won't the, won't it kind of work itself out where like, you know, those, those events are, are getting more points than they would have otherwise, but the top guys aren't playing. So it kind of evens. But that's going to I would think is going to kind of piss off the better players who are all the events that they're playing are getting kind of capped on on points because the fields are a little bit limited. That's what it's basically like every players now performance rating counts towards the field. So essentially almost everyone you'd add from 81 to 156 would be like adding a point basically to the field, which really does add up. And so, you know, I guess it doesn't, they're still going to get the most points of any

of the tours. And if live guys don't really get points, it doesn't really matter too much anyways. But that's just, it's just a thought in there. So are they going to change, I mean, they could just change for rules again. Right. It took a while to get this change, though. It's not necessarily a snap of the fingers. And this seems to be the best system they've had so far at this point.

I know there's been a lot of stuff shared that how much it screws over other tours, but man, this just makes way more sense. And I, I think it's a, it's a hindrance to the PGA tour that it does limit the limited field events that they do have. It does cap them pretty darn good, especially the playoff events. So.

Talking about the Asian events a little bit more. I would imagine the next year or in 2024, one of the elevated events is probably in the Middle East for the PGA tour. But one thought is to maybe make the Zozo and the CJ Cup make them like co-sanctioned. Like they're maybe they're not elevated, but they count towards the DP World Tour, you know, race to Dubai or whatever. And you give guys an option there. All right. If you want to, you know, let's say you win one of those,

you play really well and stack it on top of some majors and you can go to, you know, let's say you win one of those, you play really well and stack it on top of some majors and You can go to you know, Dubai and make a shitload of money, you know, it's kind of a bonus at the end of the year there Like kind of like what hovelin did more kawa and those guys do, you know, anyway, right? That I mean if I'm looking at it and they want to they wanted to do 20 elevated events or whatever that is like that's a jam-pack season Before August, right? So I just yeah, I agree with you. I think that there's room to do some of that kind of into the fall. But we'll see how that plays out. Should be interesting. Shall we move on to the BMW ladies championship? We shall. That is where Tc and I were this past week at Oak Valley Resort in near Wandju in Korea. We had a hell of a week that included a few days at that tournament. Starting at the top, Lydia Coe wins by four strokes or 18th career victory at the age of 25,

almost she's almost 25 and a half years old. Did just a little bit of digging on this today as I was jet lagged and woke up at five o'clock in the morning. Career victories in both men's and women's golf by the age of the Lydia Coast, the age she currently is, which is almost 25 and a half. Tiger had 27 wins to this point, compared to Lydia's 18. Mickey Wright, who has the second most wins

in LPGA Tour history, she had 19. Lydia's got 18. Jack Nichols had 14 at this age. Brook Henderson has 12. Kathy Whitworth, who has the most LPGA wins of all time. She had 12. Speed had 11 at this age, JT9, Rory 9 and plus four on the European tour. Phil had five wins to this point and Otica Sorensen had three wins at this age.

I know Lydia has made it, as tip people off that she may be done playing golf by the age of 30 or something like that, if she know that maybe does want to have a long career. But if she does have a lengthy career, she is well in her way to one of the great all-time careers and had kind of a wall there for a period of time, but she is back in a big way leading the LPGA Tour in Strokes Gain this year, leading the race to the CME and is looking like the best part in the world right now. That was a ball striker's golf course. Yeah had to, it was on the like, it was in the mountains. I mean, we were, I felt like I was in Eastern Tennessee, Western North Carolina. Zoysia, yeah, Zoysia fairways, like very, very, very, you had to sweep the ball and it was tough to

get any spin with your irons and the greens were very firm and quite fast. It was a, you cannot fake your ball around there. You had to drive it well, you had to hit your irons well, it was not a plotting contest. So I think as such, the leaderboard was stout. There was such a good leaderboard. Yeah. Lydia, Andrea Lee, who's playing some serious golf, was runner up. Who's delightful? Like she's talked to her, you know, and Cincinnati, we talked to her this week. She's just like such a well-adjusted, just really, really like her head is screwed on straight. She's just, she's got great personality.

I love spending time around her. Huge, very high floor as well. And Higgin Choi and Hugh Jo Kim, finished in a tie for third also with Liliavu. We actually ate at Hugh Jo Kim Kim's parents restaurant down the street, which is a thing I never thought I would say as her dad cooked us Korean barbecue on the grill right on the table. Of course, there was very little English able to be spoken

between the two of us, but the one thing he was able to communicate was that Hujo was his daughter, which was a very cool, very cool experience. I mean, I think part of the reason for us wanting to go on this trip as well was the understanding and kind of documenting and just getting our arms around the enormous, enormous, enormous Korean influence

on the game of golf, especially the women's side. And I think this trip helped a lot of that. Just seeing the fans, seeing the support, seeing the ecosystem for women's golf. You can't flip on a TV and not, I mean, it was playing in the lounge before we left. It was playing in the hotels on two different channels. There's big controversy's going on with the KLPGA, which maybe we can talk about at some point. But I guess it's so much easier for me to have a shitload of context around a lot of these players now going forward having done this trip. And hopefully we can share that on the show and had that kind of somewhat of that influence trickle down to our audience as well.

But that's a major feeling I had walking away from this week. Yeah. Huy Jo Kim. She also has a whole simulator set up with multiple. Like it's a whole complex. Yeah. a whole simulator set up with multiple, like, it's a whole complex. Yeah, Scream Golf. She's got the steak house and then they have a bakery and coffee shop down the street, you know, right next door that's, I think I ate an entire cow on the trip. You ate so many beef.

It was, I just, I could eat Korean food all day. It was just incredible. Solid shot to you for, for really widening your horizons. You were extremely adventurous on the eating front. More so than then in previous trips that I've been with you on. So you've truly opened up your heart to Korean food. I appreciate that. I did. I've been there. I was there five years ago and I tried everything then. I had even more appreciation for it this time around. But I mean, come on,

if you're gonna go these places, you gotta try the food, you get to put it in front of you, you gotta try it. So we'll have a big video coming out, probably in the coming weeks about kind of documenting our entire trip through the country. We spent about four days in Seoul on the front end. The driving ranges there are crazy,

the amount of screen golf. The just the Korean fashion, are crazy, the amount of screen golf, the, just the Korean fashion, golf fashion, it's wild, it's staggering how, how many, how many people you see wearing just really like, it's kind of like, ski or hiking apparel here in the States where it's, it's kind of crossed over to like streetwear a little bit. That's what golf apparel has done. So I think they have a Malbon licensing company there that is just the whole country. Yeah, the entire like maybe 10% of the entire country is wearing Malbon streetwear. You've got PXG. A ton of people wearing PXG stuff. Just PXG apparel. You've got honestly

the answer to the question of how they can afford so many commercials on the golf channel that I don't need to ask that ever again. I totally understand where all their money's coming from, it's coming from Korea. Listen up sweetheart. Yeah. Yeah. The pro M was, so everybody straps their bag to a big, you know, four, four or five seat golf cart, all four bags are on the back. All sorts of gold plated ZXIO stuff and all sorts of wild wild clubs out there. Neil, they've got these little things that they attach to their T to their T doesn't fly away. Like a string to their belt. Like a little weight on the T that's kind of on a string. And so if your tee does fly away, you can identify and find it right away.

Just all these little style flares. They wear like a lot of them where they're range finders on their belts that have like a styled carrying case for it or like a little like attachments onto their bag of, you know, I feel like you could really, a TCM surprise you didn't do more shopping on the flair game.

There's just a whole element of, I don't have a better word for it than Flair that the Koreans put on the game of golf that I think was quite enjoyable to see. I'm going to go back and just go shopping. I'm just going to take a shopping trip, go back to one of the department stores. Department stores have a whole floor of golf apparel. Yeah, the rangefinder on the belt move is sick. No, I'm kind of, I'm kind of into that as well, like cheapishly. Like are the fans rowdy? Are they loud? Are they more reserved? Like at the tournament?

Was it, was it packed? Like I just want to understand how the, the vibe was at the tournament. They go out and follow their favorite player for all 18 holes. I love that. Like, they don't mess around. They are not sitting in a certain location. They are out there. And this was like the biggest walk I've ever seen for a professional. I think I saw six holes. Like, it was, I just had no desire to walk the course because of how big of a walk it

was. There's these 50, 60-year-old women in these fan clubs following a lot of the Korean players, walking every step of the way, going nuts. One of the main reasons we wanted to go as well was to learn about and check out these fan clubs and understand how famous the Korean players are in this country. The first morning of the tournament on Thursday, I stumbled on a Sung-Yong Park's fan club, and she's a multiple-time major champion, but it's had a tough go of these last couple years.

She doesn't exactly exude a lot of personality on the golf course, so I was surprised to see how big of a fan club she had, how enthusiastic and how friendly of a fan club she had. I put the camera on them. They just started waving. Like three different people came up to me and started giving me treats like Korean rice cakes

or candy or walnuts or something like that with little stickers on them. They all had hats on that, you know, said, I heart sun, young park and all this and just going absolutely ape shit whenever she made a birdie and seeing it. Maybe like I was super invested in her round because I was falling them around like rooting for birdies. I was like, man, how cool would it be if golf had actual, like if you were a fan of like, Rory, but not spieth, like you root for Rory, like you have the one guy that you go to the tournament

and root for. And like hearing those roars around a tournament rather than just cheering for everyone, that that's that that seems super interesting to be after having seen that. Yeah, it was a solid you were you're not approved yet to be part of the fan club. I know they invited you, but I think that I think she has

like 8,000 people in the fan club. They pay money. It's called the Nambala fan club. She came and took a picture with them afterwards. They had to be very quiet during the picture. It was the whole thing was like I feel like we were just scratching the surface on Korean culture and Korean golf culture, but I'm I'm way, way, way intrigued. And just Korea in general, it seems like there's like nine companies that own everything, these tables, they're like these family run companies, of which Neil CJ is actually affiliated, or used to be affiliated with the Samsung group, okay.

As well. And then all these executives, they all go to prison. It's like a right of passage to go to federal prison for, you know, all sorts of financial crimes because it means that you're looking out for the shareholders. Very interesting. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Very, very. And so I'll just go say on the golf. There was there's an element to both in the golf that we played and the golf that we watched in the program and the tournament golf. So like golf is relatively new in Korea. And it is clearly that I come from the English influence on it. So there's words that are in the Korean language, but they're just English words.

Yet so like at the, you basically, if you get it airborne, almost everyone in the group, like enthusiasm, like, oh, good shot, shot. And it becomes like an anthem for the group so I got super caught up at it T. C. I got sick of me saying it basically like 85 times a day but somebody hits a ball like everyone around it's like oh shot shot it greatly contributed to my enjoyment of like and being involved in other people's shots even when we were playing it and that was a one of my big takeaways from it? Now I hear it when I watch it on TV

of everyone like chanting that when the ball gets airport. It's really, really fun. Eagle chance. Eagle chance. Yeah, you hit the, because I think that's like the screen golf places will like say some of this stuff back to you or like nice birdie and like the emphasis they put on it was super, it just was joyous.

It was, I don't know. I just love going to places where things are done very differently and Korea was no exception to that. It's just kind of a bit of a blind spot. It's such a big part of the golf world that it was great to be able to enjoy it in person. The metal cups, it makes you want to hit cups. Randy would love it because it is so rewarding to finish out the whole and hit cups and hear that ding ding.

Very loud on TV. Yes. Tough week for Jin Young co. Yep. She with three with a person. Yeah. She's struggling. Yeah.

Not not good on that front. But the rest of the top 10. I mean, I'll tell you a tit to coon had a chance to get to number one in the world. She had a tough, a final round 74, but to finish solo six, but she's 19 years old and is knocking down the door, being the number one player in the world, kind of been a quiet story on the LPJ tour this year. And then round and out the rest of top 10, area, Jatana Garn, Yuka Saso, Lin Grant, Danielle Kang, Hannah Green, Allison Lee, Jan Hong, and MinceSol Kim, the amateur, who looks

like the next coming. She finished tie for 10th. She had a tough final round 73 because she got out to a blistering start with a 64, but she's an amateur finish in the top 10 from Korea. There was very interesting. Yeah, I think big, big finish for Lynn Grant. I know she's trying to get her, you know, LPGA tour card locked up for next year without playing in the States, which is interesting.

I'll see if she can get that done. The ladies, the Taiwanese event got canceled. So they've got a week off in between Korea and Japan. They go to the todo in Japan. It's the week of the 31st, I believe. So last thing I guess on Korea is just, yes, Sally, I think we may have to have a trap draw, a special investigation on the JTBC, SBS, KLPGA, LPGA, Biasco. Neil, they were having a hearing, like a congressional hearing on TV. JTBC had an entire two hour special devoted to it.

Cody was translating it all for us via his app. It was wild. I guess the KLPGA, the president or the commissioner just resigned. She was getting, there was all sorts of, I guess the KLPGA, the president or the commissioner just resigned. She was getting, there was all sorts of mouth feces going on allegedly. She was getting bribed with some sort of house or apartment in Seoul. A lot of things going on, I guess the KLPGA,

there was all sorts of like, SPS came in with a lower bid than JTBC, which is like the big, like, there's like four golf channels in Korea. Like amateur men's golf, that like are 15 handicaps that play at night, and you can just turn it on and like watch them play. It's incredible. It's golf. It's crazy. It's so, so big. So yeah, we'll have to look a little deeper into that one. I want to get to this before we get any further. Played some golf over there. I played very, very poorly. It's time.

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I'm going to start. Yeah, yeah. And I think the RAPSOTO, they've got the MLM net features as well. So you can kind of choose whether you're Indoor outdoor whatever, but yeah, I'm you guys are in trouble in 2023 TC's coming I want to I do want to issue one apology. We got a question from P scrolls. Could you please apologize to the bullet? I will do that at the DP World Tour event in New York. Today he had a three-shot lead with three holes to go. And I believe he finished two or three shots out of the playoff. It was

a tough tough. You early called him, Sally. I mean, he was looking great. He was a board on 16. He hit a downhill part three. It's a nice iron to about 30 feet. And I was like, okay, now that he could that things could have gone wrong. There. Of course, a three putt of that pipes on OB on 17, Vogue is 18 and a Yannick Paul also knows Paul Yannick one and one, one that event. But I apologize to the public because that was a very tough finish. Walk off to 18th green smiling like we know he would, but that was, that was a heartbreaking little finish. Yannick Paul, pride of the Colorado Buffalo. Is he really? Yeah.

Yeah. Big hitter, you know, potentially on the Ryder Cup team, right? If he keeps this up. Anytime I see Yannick Paul, I just think of the Paul Jake Paul and Logan Paul. He's going to live. All the Paul brothers are going to live. Anything else you guys want to get into before we flip it over to our interview with Zach Healthant?

Anything else. I'm trying to think, anything else that happened in the golf world this week? My guy, Tyga, the Japanese player just continues to stunt on people. So he's coming. So watch out. We'll keep an eye out on that.

We are going to wrap it around here because it is bedtime for me is 815. And I felt the waves since about 3 p.m. today and I'm going to try to get this get this back on a relatively normal schedule. But as mentioned earlier on, we have an interview. Hopefully people got a chance to read his article in the New Yorker, which is from Zach Health Family Talk. A lot of live stuff. We've isolated all the live talk for this week to this part of the conversation.

So if you want to hear a lot more about an outsider's perspective on everything going on the world of golf, I had a blast talking with him this morning and thought he had some great insights. Put me in my place on a couple of things. I agreed with me on a few things, but it was a nice little, that's still back and forth. I hope he'll stick around and listen to it. Guys, I gotta go watch Sunday night football. My guy, the Clapper. Coach.

Coach Dungee, Chris Sims, Maria, the whole gang. Floating, you know, you know, he's got Floreo. I hope we get a good slide in from Collinsworth tonight. We haven't gotten a good slide in a couple of weeks, so I'm, I don't know, I may have missed it already. It's, it's 8.15, we'll see. I've been waiting all day for Sunday night. I'm going to go see my wife for the first time in like 10 days. So gentlemen, thank you for a wonderful recap. We'll be back.

Of course next week to recap the Butterfield and the live championship. God, the live did pick some freaking good of you. But thank you all for tuning in. We'll see you back your next week and we'll get to Zach Hellfain here. Cheers. Shot. Shot. TC Vision Fund is back, baby. His article in the New Yorker is called Will the Saudis and Donald Trump Save Golf or Record.

His name is Zach Hellfain. Zach, what made you want to write this story and how long have you been working on it? It's been probably about two and a half months on and off. It wasn't the only thing I was working on for two and a half months, but over the summer and then into the early fall now. The thing that interested me was, I think it's this relatively unimportant thing. It's just golf.

We like it. We like watching. We like playing. But at the end of the day, it's not that important. But it touched on all of these other really interesting topics, the culture wars and identity politics wars. There is the geopolitics with the Saudis. There's this big question that I think everyone who thinks about

live kind of thinks about is how much money would it take for you to sell out if you consider it selling out. So it was this little thing that was, kind of amusing in certain ways to touch on a lot of bigger things. And also just the fact that this seemed like one of the rare times when a lot of professional athletes

were kind of just saying what they thought, which you usually don't see, I think because this is so personal to everyone. And so important to everyone, this is their livelihood and this is their dream. People were really kind of letting rip in a way that you don't often see. I mean, Phil Mikkelson started it off with scary motherfuckers and I think from there kind of the damn broke. And everyone that I talked to was really very candid in a way that you don't usually get with professional athletes.

Sometimes, you know, they want to do it anonymously and sometimes not. It was fascinating to me as one of these rare instances when you could actually hear exactly what people were thinking. It's a long article. It's detailed. I think the audio version of it's 43 minutes long. So this is an impossible task. I'm going to ask you here to summarize it. But I do want to know like what you think the story is. You've touched on some of that just now there, but if you were to summarize what the story is, I think a golf fans perspective on it

might be a different answer than what you might bring. So I'm wondering if you have an answer to that question. So I was writing this for, I was hoping that it would be interesting to golf fans, but also it's the New Yorker. So there's going to be a lot of people who are just general interest magazine readers who are maybe not golf fans or don't know what's going on at all. So there's a lot of those people that I was explaining this to within the magazine when they're asking what I was working on. And the way I summarized it for them

was essentially the the Saudis have created this new golf league and they're spending tons and tons of money to you know $200 million to film Nicholson and it's kind of cleaved the golf world into these two warring camps. They're all really pissed at each other and it's kind of chaos right now. And what I had assumed was the case when I had started this was that the Saudis were doing this for sports washing. You know, this was the case when I had started this was that the Saudis were doing this for sports washing. You know, this was the dominant narrative that the Saudis wanted to launder MBS's reputation after the killing of Jamal Kushouji and the Weren Yemen and other human rights issues

that they were using golf to kind of launder his reputation. And what I found out, I think that's probably surprised me most. And then I think if there's one thing that the story is about that's maybe new, it's what it is the Saudis actually want. And this is the thing that surprised me. I think what they want is there in this kind of low grade rivalry with Dubai basically. The Saudis are trying to diversify their economy, they're trying to

wing themselves from oil because they see the end of the world in which oil is the dominant economic thing and they're trying very quickly to diversify their economy and they want to keep young Saudis in the country with jobs and with things to do. They want to attract wealthy western businessmen, tourists businessmen and they're trying to peel off all these people who normally go to Dubai if you go to the Middle East. They want to bring them to Saudi. One of the things that they're using as a lure is golf.

Golf is kind of the billboard for the new diversified Saudi economy. And I also think they think they can make money on this, which maybe we can get into. I think a lot of people are dubious of that, but I think that's the Saudis main goal. So the story is basically about that and also kind of the big picture

kind of what's going on in the Gulf world. If there's one word to summarize it, I think it's pettiness. It's the kind of boring pettiness on both sides, which is what attracted me to it, because it's kind of fun to watch. Well, as someone that has used the word sports washing a lot in this, I think I've been kind of tried to,

try to flip this back into supporting my opinion on this, basically, and that I read the quotes, I've say read the article, Joseph Westfall, the US Ambassador to Saudi Arabia from 2014 to 2017 said, this idea that this sports washing is completely ridiculous. I still struggle with that concept of it because based on what you described,

I feel like that still falls under the bucket of sports washing, right? Of, you know, they wanna attract wealthy businessmen and, you know, golf being a thing that they're doing in this pie to kind of launder their reputation in some way, normalize their actions in business. I would consider that falling under sports washing in unit. You know, we had the Graham McDowell say that the Kishouji situation was reddable and

then immediately followed that with if Saudi Arabia wanted to use the game of golf as a way for them to get to where they want to be. I think we're proud to help them on that journey. To me, that's defying sports washing here, right? Because I think there's an article, a part of the article you explore, golf tourism kind of being an end game for them there, but I still just struggle with this concept that they're gonna see a return on this investment that exceeds kind of what they're trying to accomplish

on the cool, maybe just sports washing is a two-all encompassing of a word. I'm wondering what your reaction is to that. Yeah, I think that's totally fair. First of all, that McDowell quote is just so good. It's incredible. Like that's, dude, it just summer a little bit sweet that out of me like, dude, this is the definition of sports watching right here.

Yeah. So I think it'd be, sports watching as people had initially conceived it or as it was initially portrayed with, as a pertain to live, was more that MBS personally wanted to improve his image with Western elites, that was what he was using live to accomplish. And I don't think that's true. I think if you talk with the US ambassador or a guy like David Shanker who is running Middle East policy for the US for a few years. Mithiloy recently, they'll tell you that he's not that naive

that he, MBS is basically given up on trying to improve his reputation among Western Reliefs because he thinks it's just a losing game. But I think you're exactly right. I mean, I think this is a form of sports washing. Maybe a little bit different than a lot of people had initially conceived it. I think MBS knows that he actually might take a reputational hit from this.

And maybe Saudi Arabia generally, in terms of human rights, people are talking about 9-11 and Saudis involvement in that in a way that nobody has been for a long time. So I think they're willing to take that reputational hit if it improves their economic interests. I think a very strong argument could be made that it's a form of sports washing, just a different form of sports washing. And one of the points that I made in the piece was that this is kind of a more familiar form of sports washing. Golf in particular has been used very successfully as a way to kind of make guys who are maybe not the most reputable. You know, golf has a long history of racism and exclusionary policies and all

that. But because I guess maybe honor systems or just the type of people who are playing it, we've been able to turn this into like these are like the pinnacle of sportsmen. You know, these are these are the top gentlemen, these guys have integrity in their pillars of their community. And I think that's probably because the way golf has played, because you know, for a long time, you've had to call your own penalties and you've had to keep your own score. So I think one of the points that I was making in the piece was that if this is a former sports washing, it's one that we might recognize a little bit more.

It's turning these guys who are maybe not the most reputable into these really strong marketing vehicles in order to enable corporations to sell Rolexes or whatever it might be. That's the thing is, you know, there's so many offshoots of this whole topic, right? But one of them being that golf survives with not that great of viewership numbers because of the fact that it's got the right viewers in terms of corporate America, in terms of a place where companies feel very safe spending their money on the class X tour,

as we've been calling the PGA tour for a long time, they've done a great job but marketing their players at class X is that make it pretty boring for fans at times? Absolutely, but it is kind of like the, you know, a very safe place for corporate America to spend money. And you kind of dive into that too as some interviews you did at the Torch Championship in terms of corporate executives talking about why they're sponsoring the PJ tour and have

no interest in live and what interests of corporate America are. And I think that kind of helps tell the story too of how far away live is in accomplishing some of the things that I think they're wanting to accomplish. I think they're trying to do two different things and that's maybe hurting them a little bit. Some of the people that I talk to speculated that they're getting some of these guys that are edgier, you know, the the dishambo's, the guys that tend to polarize. Because they're trying to be like professional wrestling, you know, everyone loves to hate the heel. And I think maybe there's some truth in that. These guys move the needle and live is trying to go after

those guys that move the needle, whether they move the needle in a very positive way or in a more negative way. But I think they also need corporate sponsors. They need some revenue streams. They're not getting it right now through TV rights because it seems like if this reporting pans out that they're going to have to pay Fox for the rights to air their product on TV. So I think they are trying to kind of accomplish the two different

things. They're trying to go away from the class act tour model, but that's been very lucrative for the tour. And it's so far, they haven't really been able to get any of those corporate America sponsors to sign up. Do you think they actually do need to turn a profit, do need to see a return on this or in my opinion, I feel I view this as a posturing move to, you know, if you say out loud, we're not trying to make money off this, it becomes very obvious about the sports washing angle of this, right? And how it's, you know, I struggle with how they're going to make this make business sense.

So I want to ask somebody from outside the ish of the golf world to say, like, do you, do you see where I'm coming from on terms of, I don't know if they do plan to see a return on this? Because I think they just keep saying this. And, you know, the PIF is expecting a 15% return on investments and all these things. And I, if you're doing the math on this, I'm struggling to see how this thing's going to make that kind of return. I am too, at least from a traditional profit and loss standpoint. I think they may be looking at it from a broader perspective. You know, they might be factoring in the marketing gains

that you get from this. Also, they are interested in getting young people in Saudi Arabia active. So there are some more intangible benefits. If there's a golf boom in the country and lots of people are playing or lots of people are working on the courses or lots of people are visiting,

that helps offset some of the losses. I do think they are hoping to make a profit off of this. I think a lot of people are skeptical of this, but when you talk to the people who run the tour, I do think they hope to make money. And they're long-term investors, so I think they're okay with losing money in the short term. But the sovereign multifund is, they have these really lofty ambitions. Some people might think they have overly optimistic ambitions. A good example of that is, is Neom, this giant city that's $500 billion that they're building from scratch on the Red Sea. MBS wanted to have like an artificial moon and glow in the dark sand.

And it's just like, you know, some things that a lot of people would consider ridiculous. Which is ridiculous. It's going to be the height of the Empire State Building in 75 miles wide. This, this city, like it is very, very ridiculous. It is. They want to put like commuting lanes

it canals to like swim commute. It's incredible. So maybe they are overly optimistic, but I do think they are at least hoping to make some money. I don't know that they need to make money, as you say, because there are these other ancillary benefits, things that people would consider sportswashing benefits, but I do think they need to make

some money. I don't think they're hoping to just light two billion dollars on fire. I think they are hoping and we're expecting to get some return. They are thinking they'll do that by selling off these franchise rights, selling them off like any other sports team. And they're hoping they'll bank a lot of money off of that. But I think they need some money coming in to get my money coming back to them.

You know, people aren't going to pay a billion dollars for a four person golf team if there is no revenue stream at all other than a little bit of ticket sales and some merch. Is it going to be a need to be a little bit more than that? So sponsors, TV rights, all that's going to have to be part of it, I think. And that's where I think Rory made the point in the article two of saying like eventually, like obviously the finances don't make any sense. There's 25,000 people watching this thing on YouTube and the purchase is $25 million and the welcoming parties cost allegedly

between three and $5 million when they put these things together and things like that. And so if you start trying to translate the viewership into the value of these franchises, that's what it just doesn't make sense. And that's where it's like, I've made the point of where I do feel bad for the tours in

general for having to try to compete in a totally different marketplace than these guys. Like their tour has to make business sense. Both DP World Tour, PGA Tour, all the tours have to make business sense. And this doesn't. So how do you really compete with that? But you introduced this to a character in this that we haven't really heard a lot from, Majid Al Suror, but I'm wondering if you can kind of back up to explaining, I hate to say, a whole top down aspect

of how the public investment fund works, how MBS works, how, you know, again, I can't believe these are topics that I have to try to explain on a golf course. But I think it is important to kind of understanding who it is I have to try to explain on a golf chart. But I think it is important to kind of a understanding who it is that we're going to be talking about here shortly. But can you, I'm wondering if you can give us that background? Yeah, we're talking golf.

And then let's back up and do the sovereign wealth fund of the big oil producing monarchical Middle East country. But to do that, I'll give kind of the org chart. So there's the king who is MBS's father. He is older and has delegated a lot of his responsibilities to MBS, who's the crown prince. So when the king dies, MBS will be the king and have basically absolute control over the country,

which he essentially exercises now. He uses the sovereign wealth fund, which is essentially exercises now. He uses the Sovereign Wealth Fund, which is the $600 billion that will probably grow to a few trillion dollars within the next couple of years, part of money that they use to invest in things that they hope will build the country and make money for the country. Before MBS took power,

the Sovereign Wealth Fund wasn't much of a big player, but he turned it into this big vehicle to get his programs through and to kind of willpower. He appointed as the head of the Sovereign Wealth Fund, a guy named Yasser Al Rumaian. He's a former banker. He owns also the chairman of Ramco, the big oil company, the state oil company. Rumaian is known as being someone who, as most people are in Saudi Arabia, is, you know, the first to crown prince, the first MBS, kind of do what he says. But maybe to a little bit of a larger degree than even the other functionaries in the government.

So the wealth fund invests in things like Neum, the city, that's one of their big investments. They call them giga projects. They have these big, big swings. They also invested in Uber. They invested in an electric car company. They're trying to build a coffee industry within Saudi Arabia. It's kind of, it's a very wide array of investments. One of their investments is live. And the guy who runs live essentially for Rumeon is Majid Al-Sor.

Who is the... He leads the Saudi Gulf Federation another thing called the Gulf Saudi, which is closely related. And he's basically in charge of all Gulf stuff within the country. So those are kind of the three, that's the org chart is MBS at the top, Al Rumeon, who's within the inner circle of MBS and then there's Magic Alsoir, who's a high school friend of Rumeon's who runs out of the golf. And you meet Alsoir at an event. How does that introduction go and what kind of ensued over the next several hours?

So this was in what they called Liv Boston, which is actually a town called Bolton, which is closer to Worcester. Golf, you're mostly, at least early in the week, you're just kind of standing around, maybe trying to do some interviews, but during the practice rounds, it's not that much to do. I had become friendly with a guy named Frank Nachtamara, who is a member there.

It's former US attorney for Massachusetts, pointed by during the Reagan era. And just one of those guys who's very chatty, very valuable, carried a clipboard around so you can get in where he wanted and look official, even if he wasn't supposed to be there. And before around, I think this is the second round, must have been on Saturday.

They were a group of us hanging around just before they were gonna tee off on the first hole. We were following that first group. Frank says, oh, you know, there's a guy over there I want to introduce to all you guys. And he brings this man over and the man I recognize this is Magid El Soar, who I've been wanting to talk to him or Rumeon. And he he brings Magid over and Magid introduces himself and starts joking and says, yeah, I'm the guy that Phil called a scary motherfucker. And that was basically his introduction to us. And we just started walking around the whole,

of course, together. I explained who I was and I was with the New Yorker and he said, oh, I mentioned he reads the New Yorker, he's a big fan of the magazine. I mentioned that I was kind of skeptical of the media narrative, the sports watching narrative, at least as it had been portrayed as this vehicle to launder the reputation of MBS specifically. He was receptive to that.

And I said, I'd love to talk to you more about the, about live, about the vision for it, about what you guys are doing. And so we just ended up walking around the course for a couple of hours. We went up to one of the private suites, above the 18th hole, where he had kind of camped out. And we just, we ended up talking for a while. And we'll get to kind of what happens after, you know, this, this past week, but he, he, unprompted says to you, we don't kill gays, I'll just tell you that. So basically, implying, I guess, what's your reaction to that?

When somebody says this to you, is there any doubt that any of this is on the record, as well? I'll ask that as before we get to this next part. No, I had introduced myself as a reporter. I was a credentialed reporter at his golf tournament. Right. And I told him, I was as a reporter. I was a credentialed reporter at his golf tournament. And I told him, I was writing a piece. And then we had discussed at points,

we explicitly said, this is on the record. I had a recorder out, I had a no pad out. I don't think there should have been any confusion. I think he was bothered by some of the press coverage. I think he was hurt a little bit by being seen. He doesn't view himself as a scary motherfucker. And I have to say, you know, if walking around the course of them, he does seem like a pleasant guy.

Saw a guy fall down, and older guy kind of fell down and looked a little woozy and matches went over and helped him get a golf cart and introduced himself. You know, I run this thing. It was just, you know, he was there with his daughter for a little while, held the rope for people. You know, I think I was trying to show that, you know, I'm a decent guy. So I think he was hurt by some of this. And that's why I think he mentioned that, you know, we don't kill gays. He views himself as a relatively tolerant person. And

maybe true. I think there are definitely criticisms one could make of Saudi Arabia's treatment of gay people of women. But he personally seemed a little bit hurt and a little bit defensive toward some of that. Well, I don't remember that. That's a reference to what Phil had said to Alan Chipnuck in the interview that kind of shook up the golf world in February, that they killed people for being gay in Saudi Arabia and that's what, they're scary motherfuckers, why would I want to be in business with them?

So then, your article comes out and there's a statement that was released this past week from Modjid that said, I had a casual conversation with a New Yorker reporter at Liv's Boston event a few weeks ago, during which I expressed my frustration and at the unfortunate blackballing of live golf players by the PGA tour. When it comes to the major's tournaments that stand out about history, heritage, true competition and honor, the story wrongfully expressed and misrepresented my views.

The majors are indeed the best platform where live golfers and other tour players can compete despite the PGA tours. Suspension of our players as a live golf board member and managing director, I'm here to accomplish our live golf investment chairman and the board of directors. Board strategic direction by building a team growing the game and defending player rights. That is my only interest.

And this is in response to the part in your article that says, for now the majors are siding with the tour and I don't know why. If the majors decide not to have our players play, I will celebrate. I'll create my own majors for my players. Honestly, I think all the tours are being run by guys who don't understand business. So it seems to me, what's your reaction when that happens, right?

I mean, I think to me, it's like, it's obfuscation, it's trying to confuse listeners and viewers as to the, the, quote, bias media in there. And what's your reaction as a journalist to, to having your work kind of discredited like that? It's kind of the cost of doing business. It's not about the craziest walk back I've ever seen, I've been involved with.

This happens. People say things and then maybe they regret saying them and they either try to apologize or try to walk it back in some ways. It doesn't offend me personally. I didn't represent really anything that he said. I just quoted them. And sometimes a journalist gives lots of context

on something or gives an opinion on something depending on what kind of piece it is. This, I just, the context was the majors, there's questions of how many live golfers are going to qualify for the majors or whether they're going to be allowed to play in the majors. And then I just quoted them. So there really wasn't much representation going on that's been just giving his own words. I do think the general trend is troubling. You know, you see Phil talk about, you know, I never gave an interview to Alan Shipnock. And it kind of starts to cross into these kind of Orwellian, you know, denying what everyone

has seen or read with their own eyes. But this, I think this statement personally was, you know, it wasn't the worst that I've seen. I had not heard this, and I can think of no better representation for how this whole thing than what I learned in your piece that the the Saudis asked about renting Augusta Nationals Clubhouse to host a meet and greet for top golfers, which to anyone in the golf world, you can literally anyone would know you cannot do that, like that is the Augusta Nationals not for sale, their clubhouse is not for sale.

Well, I think it's, it represents to me a few different things. I think one, the fact that I'll sort and Rumei on our huge, huge golf fans. And I think this shows a that they really just wanted to meet these top golfers because I think it was probably a thrill for them. I'm speculating here, but I imagine it would have been a thrill. And B, that they entered this, they're no longer, but they entered this as kind of novices to the American golf scene. I think even a casual observer of golf who watches the masters every year would probably be able to tell you, you can't do that. That's not a thing that you could really even ask or think about. I think the other thing it shows you is this mindset that they have. They have tons and tons of money. And this is also a monarchy. It's a thing in which

if MBS says he wants something, people are going to get it for him because he is the crown prince. And I think the desire to host this meet and greet. It shows, I think, the idea that they have that with enough money, anything is for sale. And I think the miscalculation here was that, this is the master's, you know, as much money as the Saudis have, the masters, you know, they have collectively more. This is the thing that, to very rich,

is the most powerful people in the country do because they have, you know, they've gotten bored with all their other riches and power and they've created this thing that is fun. You know, they're not gonna sell it. This is kind of priceless for them. I think that was in this calculation, but I think the idea was, you know, if we pay,

you know, if we, if we offer $10 billion for this, which they wouldn't do, but is the, is Augusta National going to say no? I think that's the mindset they're approaching it. He also claims that he went to Jay Monahan and said they have over a billion dollars, they want to invest in the tour and got no response to the tour, denied that claim. What is your take on? Did something like this actually happen? It's, you know, magic says one thing. The tour says another. I know that the Saudis and magic had been looking to invest in professional golf in some big way. One of them was the more well-known one was with the European tour. They were trying to invest in the European tour and the PGA ultimately was trying to do that also

and ultimately one out and now they have the partnership with the European tour. I don't know if it would have went down as Magic Describes describes as I have $1 billion would you like it? I think that there were probably some more nuanced discussions and I think maybe it was more that they had this pot of money and they were looking to partner with the PGA tour in some way. But right now we kind of have these two competing words, you know, is it? You know, is it as magic describes is the tour says they were never approached with the offer at all. So, you know, it it? You know, is it as magic describes as the tors as they were never approached with the offer at all? So, you know, it's kind of, he said, he said, yeah, that's where it's kind of seems a bit

working backwards to me in terms of, you know, they feel left out of the ecosystem right now in a little bit of trying to position themselves as saying, hey, we tried to play in your ecosystem and you didn't want it, which I have a feeling that there was either way more strings attached to that billion dollars that they just wanted to be so benevolent with and donate to the game of golf and what they're actually trying to do with a lot of that money, which seems to be like that vent diagram doesn't seem like a very big overlap.

Yeah, and it's difficult. Live is a for-profit venture. The PGA tour is nonprofit. It's difficult. You know, live is a for profit venture. The PGA tours is is is is nonprofit. It's it's difficult to Incorporate these things within a nonprofit and then have one person making money. I Am not a tax attorney, but I think that there are a lot of complications there It's not as easy as saying hey, let's have a little for profit wing of the tour There's a lot of things that would need to be ironed out. I don't know if it's, you know, even really feasible at all. One part of this article that kind of, I don't want to say haunted me. It's a little dramatic,

I think a little bit, but the elsewhere said in reference to the players voting to wear shorts, which he was not a fan of that he is lying is democracies, okay, sometimes. And it's just a reminder as to what these guys have signed up for and that they are working for a undemocratic leaders of a foreign monarchy. Yeah, I don't know if I have a question related to that other than you found that that line worthy of including in the article that you find it as significant as I did. I found it. I can see it going both ways. And I think I found it more charming than anything. I found it a little bit of self-awareness.

These are different political systems. They are not a democracy. This value that we hold is kind of sacred and self-evidently amazing is just not how this Saudi political system operates. And I think he lives in America. and I think he's aware of that. I think this seemed to me more of a joke, but I could see people kind of viewing it as threatening in a way or vaguely unsettling. The interesting thing to me was the tour operates as a democracy.

They, the players get votes, but it's organized in a way, early until very recently, until the glory and tiger changes, organized so that the players were always the minority of votes on the board. So the complaints that you hear on the tour, which is this kind of messy democracy,

or messy quasi-democracy at least, is that their voices aren't heard and they're being dictated to by Monahan and the tour board. And the thing that you hear on live actually is that their voices are heard. And I think it's because there are a smaller number of them and a smaller number of real stars. And live is actively trying to court them. So their opinions are taken and acted on much more quickly.

But it was interesting like you get these complaints on the tour where, you know, we don't really have a voice. And then on live, maybe counterintuitively, all the guys are like, yeah, this is great. They've listened to us, they ask our opinion all the time. So that just that amused me a little bit. So that part, I, that's where I think the players, it's a little bit of revisionist history for the players. I don't doubt that that is being that is a talking point being trumpeted. But the, I've not heard of situations where the players, like the four representation, the four members that they have on the board, if they want something,

it gets done. They don't get outvoted by the other five, necessarily, you know, shot down right away. And I have made the point that I think the players have been a bit lax in their organization of getting specific stuff pushed through. It took being pushed to the brink before they said, actually realized the power that they do have, right? And they've maybe deferred too much to the executives

and they don't see each other. They're not in the same room very often. Like Monhen emphasized how, you know, historical it was to get that many top players that got in the room in Delaware altogether at once because these things do not happen. These guys only play maybe five, six events a year where they're all in the same field together. And those are the biggest tournaments and they don't want to sit down and meet on a regular basis. So it's another aspect of this that I find very, very interesting is that fall out from this is players realizing how much power within the tour they actually do have. Yeah, it's their tour at the end of the day.

They set it up. And even when they don't have, even when they didn't have the board boats, if the top players, you know, Tiger Woods at any point in the last 20 years said, I want this thing or else I'm going to leave, what is the tour going to say? You know, are they going to say no? Of course not. And who is the tour? Who is the tour in votes? In air votes, right? It is you. Yeah, it is.

It is. It is. It is. Davis loved to describe this to me. There's a small group of guys who are invested in board votes and going over financials and all of that. There's a small group of people who are always complaining. People fill Michaelson in that and I don't think anyone, but dispute that. They're going to complain no matter what. Then there's just this vast middle group who don't really care and they just want to play golf. That's all well and good.

But this is your tour. I mean, this is one of the advantages and the downsides of not having owners. You know, you get to decide how things are run and you get to keep a majority of the money. But that also means you have to do a little bit of the work. But most people don't want it. Most people, you know, you're a golfer. You don't think of yourself as, I have to look at

financial statements and interpret all of those things. It's not what they want to do. I mentioned the name Trump at the beginning of the article and I'm proud we went, I've gone 35 minutes here without bringing that back up, but you went to a live event at Trump Bedminster. What's, you know, took a couple of questions with that. Are you nervous to get, you know, took a couple questions with that. Are you nervous to get,

you know, credentialed as a journalist waiting into the Saudi Arabian world? Are you nervous to report on Saudi Arabia at all? And what's what's kind of like that process like for you to go and say, all right, I hear I'm going to go credentialed and get report on a live golf event? I wasn't and haven't been concerned at all. There was no trepidation or hesitation or concern. Well, we have reporters who like actually go to war zones and deal with dangerous people and have to navigate terrorism or governments that might want them dead. I guess for that perspective,

this is just golf, it's not that important to anyone. So the question of getting credential at the Trump event, I, they actually didn't credential me for that one. They credentialed me for Boston later. But to my surprise, I was, my credential request for Trump, the Trump tournament was denied. So they ended up giving me a ticket,

which I think saved me like $3 because the tickets were reselling for a dollar on Stuff Hub. Press fees, so I just probably saved some fees on top of that. So I was just wandering around the course just like anyone else. You know, I had my notepad out and my recorder out, but I was just wandering around. I think I've been gratified that most of the golf people

seemed to have thought that I got like the golf scene, the golf world captured pretty accurately. If there's been any complaints about the piece, other than from Magic, it's been that there's too much Trump. I'm like anyone of Trump fatigue and would rather not talk about it, but you go to Trump Bedminster. And the experience was like being at a Trump rally. People cared more about Trump. Yeah, why did you write about Trump at a live event at Trump Bedminster with Trump leading cheers

to the 16th? What made you want to write about Trump? Why did you decide to do that? Yeah, and that's like, you know, why'd you go to the NASCAR race and write about NASCAR, you know, it's, it was bizarre in that like, people just seem to, like golf seem to be like the side show. It's like Trump sometimes will have like a, you know, this, some weird singing act come and, and seeing it, one of his rallies. And that's kind of what the golf was in a way. It was, you know, people would flock to the 16

T-box, but what you'd wear the clubhouse was, and know, people would flock to the 16th T-Box for which it were the clubhouse was, and just stare at them and stare at Tucker Carlson or Marjorie Taylor Green and, you know, do, do, you know, chant things as one does at a rally, and then there would be some golf coming through. And, oh, that's not, isn't that neat? So it was a weird experience. And, you know, all the gear, it's not like people have like, you know, there's a merch tent now at live events,, it was not like people have, you know, there's a merch tent now at live events, but it's not like people have like, crushers hats on everywhere.

It was like, you know, it's all trump hats. And everyone was, you know, even on the buses over from the parking lot, it was all, you know, kind of bros talking about AOC and how much they hate her and, you know, making Hillary jokes and stuff like that. It was, it was definitely like a particular scene. And the scene was was Trump rally. And that's where I would love to clarify for our audience.

This is definitely not why I got into golf. For either side, to turn this into a political rally is definitely not what interests me about golf. And I do have not enjoyed that aspect of golf being hijacked. You know, in any direction for, you know, the bringing, like, it's not the journalists that are bringing politics into this, right? It is very clear that golf has become a pawn in a global scheme really here

and being used in this culture war, like you mentioned and you have to try to highlight that in some way and tell that story even if it's gonna be polarizing to a lot of people and it's, I mean, you touch on it too about how, you know, the PGA tour versus live is not Republicans versus Democrats. It's more like, you know, warring factions within their own political party, if you will. And yeah, how was that part of the story in your mind? It was really fascinating to me, because I didn't come into this know how the lines broke down.

I knew that Liv had used Trump for his courses and kind of had this alliance with him in some ways. But I didn't know if the golfers themselves were lean more toward Trump. And I think this is to speak very, very broadly. But it did break down where if affinity for Trump helped explain like who went to live. So, you know, there are a lot of people who like Trump still on the tour. But it was the way one manager broke it down for me was that guys who grew up kind of more working class, it didn't have country clubs growing up. They live appeal to them, because it's just guaranteed money.

And I think when you grew up poor or grew up without as much, you're saying, I don't know how often these opportunities come. I'm gonna get my money and secure my future and future for my family right now. And the guys who grew up with more money, some people think of as like the Mitt Romney kind of weighing off the Republican party. They claim these high principles. So you know, there's some things more important than money. We have this tour which we love and you know, prestige and honor, that's important.

But it's easier to say that when you've grew up more comfortable. So I think it's kind of like in a lot of ways, it's like the mainline Republicans who are like, okay with Trumpism versus the actual full-on Trumpers. And there are exceptions obviously on both sides. There are people on live who I'm sure don't like Trump. I doubt there are many Democratic voters on either side, but I think there are probably some crossover between the different Republican factions.

I think the people that would to live love money more than they care that much about the Trump. I don't think that's a deciding factor really for them. I think it's a tolerance to it, right? Some people don't want to be associated with it because it, honestly though, like the reason for that being, they may consider it damaging to their overall brand and marketability, which also ties back to money, right? It's that's where it's just like,

you keep digging on all these things and manages comes back to money in so many different ways. And it's super interesting to try to navigate and figure out and like, man, a lot of times I just wanna see who wins the majors and make jokes along the way. Yeah, I don't think anyone went to live because Trump's there and I like Trump,

but I think it's just like kind of a way of viewing the world. At the end of the day, it's where am I going to make the most money, basically. At the edges, it's like, where do I want to play, what am I most comfortable with? And there are some people that really like the tour and wouldn't leave for a lot of money. But Rory, for example, it's not like Rory's giving up a ton of money.

Rory, if he left, would probably take a huge hit from his sponsors. And I don't think that's his maybe primary focus, one of them. But a lot of these guys are making a business calculation. That's where the hardest part for me has been the dudes that have already made hundreds of millions of dollars leaving for more hundreds of millions. That's just been hard to blend together. Some of the dudes that take Hudson Swaffer who has probably made over $10 million from

this thing right now, that's not what his income has been like for his whole, he's not sitting on $100 million to my knowledge and then leaving for more greed. It's, you know, the fills, the DJs, those guys have been the ones that have been really hard to stomach because like you said, certain amount of these guys that have all this money, like that, you know, what's a hundred, what's 300 million more of Rory? He even has said that out loud. Like I use, ever since I've gotten especially rich, I use the same four rooms in my house. Like it's just not going gonna change my life that much.

And that's what's been tough to kind of watch unfold. But. You don't buy the DJ needs to provide for his family. I'm not gonna buy that. What I think he's probably pretty set be in the third highest earner in PJ Tour history. Plus, I'll be planning for a really, really big family. Ha, ha, ha, ha.

Couple of things I got to ask about you through through a nice line in there about a guy watching porn on his phone behind the 10th green at Bedminster. Tell me about that. So I'm talking to this guy and he's trying to show me something on his phone, which he had just been on as I approached him. And there were not a lot of people around the 10th green. Early in the week, there was just not a lot of people on the course.

So it's not like your elbow to elbow, like you might be in another gallery. So there's this guy just standing watching something on his phone as I walk up to him. He puts his phone away as I walked up to him and we start talking. And he's trying to show me something on his phone. And he unlocks it. And I could see what he was watching before. And it was, it was port, which that was a first for me. I'd never encountered that at really any sporting event. So that was it was interesting. What thing that kind of read this kind of crystallized for me that I don't know if this can or will be lives undoing, but it seems like a lot of the main interested parties seem to have very different interests in combining on this. You know, the players want to earn more money.

The Saudis want whatever they want out of it. Trump wants whatever he wants out of it. Norman wants revenge on the tour. You got to kind of dig into a lot of these different aspects. Do you see that having any potential for maybe pulling them apart into the future and how this all plays out? Yeah, it's, you know, talking about how people choose ones higher to the other. It is mostly money, but there are all these resentments that build up over years and years of playing with and against people. And I think a lot of that maybe wasn't the determining factor in a lot of this, but it helped,

and also helped fuel how pissed the sides already, each other. Tiger and Norman have had this long-running... It's hard to tell how much Tiger actually cares about Norman. There may be views him as a little mosquito. Norman seems to be really hurt by Tiger not giving him the deference he thinks he deserves. I think money is the great divider here and will ultimately be the great unifier. People will, I think, put aside their differences if it makes economic sense for them. Someone maybe like Norman might have a more difficult time in grazeeating himself back into the world of golf, but I don't know that he'd ever been very popular within the world of golf beforehand. So I don't see this.

Was your question more of will this rip apart live or rip apart the golf world generally? I think more live. I mean, it's, you know, as we get towards the end of this year, viewership numbers are dropping. They're not adding new players. As of right now, I have no idea what's going to happen in this off season. And they're going to add a bunch of events for next year. And they're going to have a new wave

of momentum in some capacity. But it seems like it's waning just a little bit. I think the US events, I would consider a great success for them. I mean, they they seem like they was really escalating each event kind of build on top of each other. There was some exciting moments in the golf that I'm sure they were happy with. And the Boston was pretty fun, actually. Yeah. Bangkok and and and Jedda were just kind kind of does. It seemed like and just barely made a splash. And that's where it's just like, you know, they've been on this rise, rise, rise, rise in so many different ways, thanks to the money. And I just don't, you know, it doesn't, I don't get the sense that

everyone's swimming in the same direction. I don't think Norman is long for this thing. I don't, I, and I, the next phase is just going to be very interesting when it's not all brand new and all signings in here. We got this guy and we got this thing. I don't. And I the next phase is just going to be very interesting when it's not all brand new and all signings in here. We got this guy and we got this guy and this guy and the whole golf world's coming. I think this next wave is just going to be harder for them to pull people in and I just wonder if, you know, then then internally do players start getting, you know, having stripes with how things are run and, you know, not having viewers and not having the the ownership value. And I still just struggled to picture how all this is all going to play out.

I think once players start to see and potentially insight, that's when it gets really interesting. If there is an insight, if live does take off on an upward trajectory and I think things need to change for that to happen, I think it's still possible. Then everyone's rich and happy. I think if people see this collapsing, I think they might still be fine with the decision they made because they're gonna have a lot of money.

But then I think you'll start to see the calculation on the other end. The thing that VGA tours dealing with right now, it's like who's going to leave and when, and who's going to bring with them. You're going to have that at some point with live. There's going to be guys who are saying, all right, I got my money, live seems to be collapsing.

If that seems to be the case. And then they're going to say, all right, when do I try to jump back and how? People might not want to be the first guy, because the first guy's probably going to be made an example of, but then they might want to be the second guy. And I think there could be that same suspicion and recrimination and chaos and lying that you saw the tour in reverse.

And also, one part of the live model that they plan to institute is this relegation. They think if you're one of the poorer people playing on the poor in terms of golf, playing on their tour, you're going to get relegated, or maybe the teams will get relegated. And some of these guys that made a lot of money, you know, you know, if Phil maybe would have been in danger of relegation for the way you play this year, and are they going to do that? And then are people jealous that he's getting preferable to treatment or is

feel like, what the hell? I'm now on the B team. A lot of the guys that they signed up are like big names that aren't that good anymore. And you could see being in the lower half or at the bottom of the poor in a few years. And today, do they resent the treatment that they're getting if they're relegated? And right now, they're in the few years. And do they resent the treatment that they're getting if they're relegated?

Right now they're in kind of a honeymoon phase. Exactly, greatly appreciate you helping us cover this from a different aspect. We've tried to cover it from all different possible ones. We appreciate somebody from outside of what some people call our echo chamber, which I would disagree with. But outside of the people we normally talk off with to kind of shine a different angle in this and greatly appreciate your reporting and making golf feel kind of important in the

grand scheme of things as well because I know there's a lot going on in the world. So thanks for spending some time with us, I greatly appreciate it and I hope you catch up in the future. Yeah, thanks for having me on. I'm going to be the right club today. Yes. That is better than most. How about him? That is better than most. Better than most.

Expect anything different.