No Laying Up - Golf Podcast - NLU Podcast, Episode 62: Alan Shipnuck

Episode Date: January 24, 2017

Alan Shipnuck from Golf.com joins me to talk about their new layout, and his new vertical called The Knockdown. We talk about what he’ll be doing there, as well as the state of current golf... The post NLU Podcast, Episode 62: Alan Shipnuck appeared first on No Laying Up. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

I'm going to be the right club today. Yes! That is better than most. How about him? That is better than most. Better than most! Expect anything different! Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to the No-Ling of Podcast. I'm Chris Solomon, joins today for the first time from Si.com, golf.com. We're now in Golf Rider, Alan Shipnook.

Alan, sounds like a lot is going on in your world this week. Why don't you tell us about it? Sounds like a lot is going on in your world this week. Why don't you tell us about it? Yeah, I'm excited. We start with a total resign of golf.com, which as all of you media consumers know is way overdue. That website has been lacking for a long time. So it's going to be better top to bottom, which is great.

And I'm getting my own vertical, which is industry parlance for basically a website within a website or calling it the knockdown. And it's kind of my own real estate to do whatever the heck I want, which is exciting because you know, the last 20 plus years writing mostly for sports illustrated, whatever ideas I had had to go through the prism of what is the story going to go in how many pages can we free up all these other factors that were someone out of my control and now I can really do whatever I want story-wise for sure I'm gonna keep writing long features and even though

a lot more gonna be original for the web I'm hoping to bring that same kind of magazine quality but getting into podcasts of my own can be doing a lot more going to be original for the web. I'm hoping to bring that same kind of magazine quality, but getting into podcasts of my own can be doing a lot of video storytelling, writing live from various events and it's really a free for all. I can do travel, I can do equipment, it's just a blank blank slate at this point. So it is exciting, it's a little daunting, but I'm kind of going all in on this venture. I will still do the occasional story for Sports Illustrated, but it's really my, this is this long, slow transition

from print to digital is kind of accelerated in my life. And I'm just going completely game busters now for the internet, and I'm excited about it. Sounds like you signed yourself up for a lot more work though, did you? Yeah, I signed away my life. You know, it used to be, if you wrote 20 stories a year for Sports Illustrator, you are killing it. I mean, you are carrying a heavy load and And I'm gonna write 20 stories in the first month of the knockdown.

So it's definitely a lot, a lot different pace. I'm enjoying it for now. Whether I actually survive the year or the decade remains to be seen. But I'm certainly energized, and I'm enjoying the challenge and the freedom, but it is a heck of a lot of work. I can imagine. I'm sure a lot of people listening are at least familiar

with your work, but even I'm not very familiar with how your writing career started or how your career started with SI.com. So is there a Spark Notes version of that, or do you have a prepared story for how your career started and how you got to where you are today? Yeah, there's a short meeting and long version. We got plenty of time, I got nothing but time. Probably the medium version is best for this because we got a lot of reader questions. I've never gotten so many reader questions here, so people are excited for this, but I'm curious to hear your background as well. Well, I like to say I'm the second best writer to come out of Salinas, California, but there's quite a big gap to one and two, number one, to be John Steinbeck, of course. And, you

know, that Salinas is a little dusty, farving town, about 15 miles east of Pebble Beach and my summer job, starting when I was a senior in high school as a cartboy at Pebble. And that was during the first Japanese ownership group. There was no oversight whatsoever. So we played golf a ton. I mean, I probably played Pebble three times a week back in those days. And that's really where I learned how to play golf. And it's like losing your Virginia, you know, Jennifer Lawrence.

It's all downhill from there. And so we used to get these computerized printouts, so we'd show the next days T-times, and I'd always sift through them because one day we Michael Jordan, or, you know, whomever, obviously a lot of moves and shakers. I saw a name Mark Mulvoid, who I knew to be the managing editor of Sports Illustrated, because I've been reading the magazines since I was 8 years old. Yeah, a little sign. Publishers memo at the front. And so I pounced on him and I said, oh, Mr. Mulvoy, my dream in life is to write for your magazine. I'm an 18-year-old kid.

He has absolutely no use for me whatsoever. But he gives me his card and pats me on my head and sends me on my way. So I matriculate to UCLA. I send him a letter every couple months. You know, dear Mr. Mulvoy, I'm not covering women's rugby for the daily brewing. No response. I send these letters for two years.

And so this now gets us to the summer of 1993 and flipping through the T times as always, I see the next day, Mark Mulowboy, I can't believe it. He didn't tell me he was coming. I'm so hurt and disillusioned. He was supposed to be my day off, so actually I switched shifts, so I could just be there to suck up to him again.

And what is your policy on profanity for this? Oh, go do what you want. For some reason, we're still not marked, explicit in iTunes, but go go right ahead. All right, so so I walk up the mobile. I said, oh, dear Mr. Movel, it's Alan Shippenock, you know, I used to and he cuts my access. Oh, yeah, you're the little shit ass who sent me all those letters. Yeah, that was a mean thing. So at least you know they existed. So my timing was impeccable because you know they existed. So my timing was impeccable because Sports History is just about to launch the Golf Plus franchise in January of 94 and he

was realizing that they might actually have some use for an intern. So after a lot of correspondence, he went up offering me an internship. I dropped out of UCLA, moved to New York in a blizzard in January and Golf Plus would just turn out to be home run. We couldn't advertise him when he was pouring in so fast, we literally could not fill the pages. So they sent me out to do a few little stories and they got bigger and bigger and I wound up writing a cover story when I was still in intern and that kind of secured my employment

after college. So I went back and I finished my degree and then I turned pro the same year as Tiger Woods. I graduated from UCLA and in the spring of 96 and he left Stanford that summer. So again, right place, right time. And I've been sports illustrator ever since. So it is definitely a little bit of hustle, maybe a couple drops of talent, but mostly it was just taking advantage of a great opportunity. The game was exploding at that very moment, so it really was ideal circumstances. Well, time. So Randy wrote this thing a couple of years ago where he did this study of, I've referenced this on the podcast probably five times, so the constant listeners will be annoyed

by this at this point, but we call it the Tiger Tax where he estimated how much money Tiger added to the game and part two never came out, but it was supposed to invoice certain players to say, hey, this is how much, how much do you think you would owe Tiger Woods based on your career earnings? So it sounds like we may have to do a writer version of that with you as far as how much of your career earnings do you have tied to Tiger Woods and the success of golf since

he came into the game? Yeah, just take like take Phil's number and drop a few zeros and you know probably comparable but yeah, it's certainly you know the the first time I ever saw a Tiger Woods hit a golf ball in person was a 97 masters. certainly, you know, the first time I ever saw a tiger was hit a golf ball and person was a 97 masters. So it was really just an incredible timing to launch a career in the golf media. And I've ridden the wave like a lot of other people. So I think tiger in the abstract, but you know, I like to think that there'd always be something else to write about.

And of course, in this post-Tiger year, I'm still trying to pump out good stories, but there's no question he made it a better beat for a long time. So what is, with the transition to golf.com's making that you're making, what do you, I guess, is it kind of a bittersweet transition for you, or what do you, what do you, I guess, is it kind of a bit or sweet transition for you or what do you, what do you, I guess, what you're taking on the current state of the way golf is covered? What are you, what are you hoping, I guess, necessarily, to accomplish with this transition? Yeah, I'll always venerate the long, elegant magazine story.

That that's kind of what I always aspired to do. And I've hadn't been fortunate enough to be given a few opportunities. And I'm still hoping to write those kind of stories for the knockdown. The difference is even it's for illustrated, you know, a big media company, even whether it's golf digest, you name it. Writing for the Winnie Winnie Winnie Winnie Winnie Winnie Winnie Winnie Winnie Winnie Winnie Winnie Winnie Winnie Winnie Winnie Winnie Winnie Winnie Winnie Winnie Winnie Winnie Winnie Winnie Winnie Winnie Winnie Winnie Winnie Winnie Winnie Winnie Winnie Winnie Winnie Winnie Winnie Winnie Winnie Winnie Winnie Winnie Winnie Winnie Winnie Winnie Winnie Winnie Winnie Winnie Winnie Winnie Winnie Winnie Winnie Winnie Winnie Winnie Winnie Winnie Winnie Winnie Winnie Winnie Winnie Winnie Winnie Winnie Winnie Winnie Winnie Winnie Winnie Winnie Winnie Winnie Winnie Winnie Winnie Winnie Winnie Winnie Winnie Winnie Winnie Winnie Winnie Winnie Winnie Winnie Winnie Winnie Winnie Winnie Winnie Winnie Winnie Winnie Winnie Winnie Winnie Winnie Winnie Winnie Winnie Winnie Winnie Winnie Winnie Winnie Winnie Winnie Winnie Winnie Winnie Winnie Winnie Winnie Winnie Winnie Winnie Winnie Winnie Winnie Winnie Winnie Winnie Winnie Winnie Winnie Winnie Winnie Winnie Winnie Winnie Winnie Winnie Winnie Winnie Winnie Winnie Winnie Winnie Winnie Winnie Winnie Winnie Winnie Winnie Winnie Winnie Winnie Winnie Winnie Winnie Winnie Winnie Winnie Winnie Winnie Winnie Winnie Winnie Winnie Winnie Winnie Winnie Winnie Winnie Winnie Winnie Winnie Winnie Winnie Winnie Winnie Winnie Winnie Writing for the web has always been an afterthought. It's always been secondary. So when I would be at the majors the last few years, I would bat out a couple stories, you know, live from Augusta or wherever.

But I would never get on an airplane just to write for golf.com. That just didn't happen. And if I had a great feature idea, all I did was pitch it to Si and wait for them to say yes. And so now we're just, we've totally flipped a script where I'm just getting on the airplane for golf.com and for the knockdown. And it's great because there's no production schedule.

There's no space limitations. There's not the multi-layers of editing. I certainly have people in the office who are helping with the finished product, but I'm finding it totally liberating. I can really do whatever I want. And even to the point of travel, I just decide, I've never covered Dubai.

It'll be the second week since we've launched this thing. I'm just going to go Dubai. I didn't even ask anyone. I just bought covered Dubai. It'll be the second week since we've launched this thing. I'm just going to go Dubai. I didn't even ask anyone. I just bought the ticket. At some point, the money may run out, but we're not there yet. And also, we're really focused on video. So at Tori Pines, I'm going to go up on Wednesday, whether permitting in a paraglider with a bunch of GoPro's,

and we'll just bang out a three or four minute really fun video about that. I might Facebook live, holding my phone. That kind of thing is probably not going to translate a really fun read and print, but it's a great video. When the knockdown launches, I've got an hour-long podcast of Phil Mickelson and he was spectacular. And for whatever reason he said yes, you know, to that and the intimacies you know about podcasts is great, or your fans get to really hear someone's voice in a different way.

And so I'm trying to take advantage of that platform. So I think the golf media is in a state of heavy tumble right now. At the end of 2016, there were a lot of layoffs. The SI Lascagray went sickle and our sister magazine, called the magazine last camera Morphid, whether it was Gulf Week, whether it was Gulf Digest, there was a lot of attrition. That's been happening year after year. So the golf media is shrinking and the resources are dwindling, but we've kind of doubled down and so I think it's kind of exciting because people in the golf media are still treating

the web as a secondary enterprise which makes absolutely no sense. So we're trying to take a different approach. And you'll certainly what you guys have done at NoLangup has shown the broader media that you can build a huge following without a print component. But I think I'm still trying to keep some of that old DNA in the kind of stories I'm writing and You know, no one's really doing long-form journalism for For it in the Gulf media except for the occasional, you know, peace that might might drop in golf digester golf magazine

And so I'm I guess I'm trying to keep that alive as best I can and and then we'll also kind of really really going all out And these these other platforms Yeah, I think the podcast form and I was curious to get your thoughts on how players view the way they get their message out or the way they view the media now. Because I think it's interesting how it to be honest, how easy it is sometimes for me to get like a player to do, want to do a podcast. You know, they have so many press and media obligations where they're answering kind of the same old questions over and over again and then, you know, they give their quotes and then after they give

their quotes, it can become whatever that writer wants it to be. Whereas, where they they had this podcast option where the listener can hear the inflection in their voice, can hear them laugh about a certain comment and understand the context of that comment rather than you know if you take a certain comment word for word that they say it may sound completely different than it does coming out of their mouths. So do you see I guess do you notice it talking to players or being closer to the ground than I am that players are kind of conscious of that kind of movement and wanting to take more control of their own narrative and their own stories? Is that kind of what kind of help generate what

you're going to be doing now in the fact that you're adding this podcast and whatnot? Yeah, no question. The idea of not having a filter is attractive. And I think it started with social media where players realize I really can reach out directly to the fans and podcasts are a way of still interacting with members of the media, but in a way that gives them a little more sense of control. So I think there's a lot more enthusiasm for podcasts than there has been. And they just become consumers as well. I think a lot of these guys spend a lot of time on the road.

They've found their own podcast they enjoy listening to and they realize, hey, be cool to be a part of that as well. So that's the biggest change I think that's happening throughout the media, not just in golf, but the traditional gatekeepers are kind of losing their purchase That's the biggest change I think that's happening throughout the media, not just in golf, but the traditional gatekeepers are kind of losing their purchase a little bit. And, you know, I mean, you show in your self-crisp that you can start as a fan and you can transition into something else and be taken very seriously and attract, you know, whether it's Jordan or Aurora, you're going to attract the biggest

names who want to be part of what you're doing. And I think that's obviously just ruptive and a little unsettling to the traditional writers who are used to being treated with a certain deference and being in control of how the players reach the fans. And so I'm sure you've noted a little turbulence coming your way, and that's probably inevitable. You know, I guess I was of the old school, and I was part of that small select group that enjoyed the benefits of the exclusive relationship we had with the players. That's broken down. I think that's part of why I'm doing what I'm doing now is I don't want to get left behind. You have to adapt or you become an absolute dinosaur. My leading step print was already pushing me in that direction. I think I'm just trying

to personally reinvent myself to stay relevant. I think other members of media should probably make a little more effort to do the same thing. That's, and you kind of answer the next question I had and that, yeah, I do catch, catch grief from anytime I disagree with any writer that's on the ground. with any writer that's on the ground, you get the still somehow to this day still get the blogger living in grandma their parents basement reference which just blows my mind. I mean you have a lot of free time, you have time to come up with something better than that at that point but I think that there's a gap between like people that do kind of what we do which is mostly online and what people on the ground do, that they're at the tournament,

so I understand being there and getting the quotes and working on the ground and getting the stories and the hotel rooms and the expenses and kind of that feeling of, hey, I'm actually here, this guy's on the other side of the world, why am I getting flack from him? But I think it, the reason why I'm critical at times or like question people at times is I think that your readers and your fans and they're using you like the media and

you're the window into the sport, right? I mean, and aside from what we've been talking about how the access part is kind of shifting more towards this online space, it's like, there was a time when you guys were the only access you had. So we make fun of some of the questions that get asked because it's not in tune with what your readers are necessarily wanting to read or the stories that they want to read, and people can get this transition

into this internet age where the editors or the people in charge, the people that you're reporting up to, they care a lot about the numbers, they care a lot about what articles are attracting a lot of views, and it can be really hard to balance between providing a product to your true fan base, versus doing something that is, you know, it's gonna get a lot of clicks, even though it's gonna be divisive, it's gonna be sometimes a bit trashy,

and sometimes not that relevant. So I hate how whenever I'm critical of anything like that, everything gets so defensive, and they point to the fact that you're not on the ground. So do you see both sides of that, and are you kind of, do do agree a bit with both sides? Or where do you find yourself on the line in that kind of spectrum? Yeah, well for starters golf is always at least a decade behind everything, right?

Whether you're talking about show, creek or the gues of of national membership policies or whatever whatever societal issue this golf is always late and we've seen that is also media wise it was the golf me to follow a very traditional model and propped up by the fact that there's this huge industry that still wants to advertise in print and so I think golf is very slow to see the world changing around us. And the players through social media helps for that along. But there's still among the media,

there is this sense that we're the gatekeepers of all knowledge and you know, the fan at home knows that, you know, to be plainly untrue. And so I do have a foot in both camps, you know, I like the stuff that you guys do. I think it captures the energy of real fanhood and I think in some ways you're more plugged into the readers than we are as the writers which sounds backwards but and so not you know I don't want to be going sunshine up your ass this whole time there's other sites that are doing it really well also but since it's your podcast we'll use no length up as the model. But there is there is value it being on-site tournaments so I don't think there's any

question about that and so it does give us you know some some advantages you have a lot of you know what you get in the press conference is the party line and then what you get in the locker room and the driving range and the putting green is often different. And so, the writers who were there have a lot of insight into what's happening, even if it doesn't always show up in print. And there's also the other relationships you can build with the wives, with the caddies, with the people who are not as maybe as active on social media as the players, but, you know,

they know where all the bodies are buried. So, for sure, it helps to be out on tour and enter building on those relationships, but I think it's folly to dismiss people who aren't there and not know what they're talking about and that their opinions are less valid. I try to never do that because I'm aware that I mean you probably watch more golf than I do. I mean I have four kids, I'm coaching two basketball teams, I'm on airplanes a lot. The collective of no-ling up I'm sure is watching more golf on TV than I am, so if you spot something cool or funny, I'm grateful for the service, but it is an interesting moment because that tension is getting exacerbated as the players are starting to branch out away from the

traditional old media models and if they go on your podcast it makes it harder for me or for someone else who in the traditional golf media to get them because they say hey we just did that so I don't want to do it again so I think what you're getting is a feeling of you know it's disruption and it's a threat it It's competition. So I'm not sure if you're being dismissed and much as you're being challenged as you're making people uncomfortable and it may come out as condescension, but I think it comes from a different place where it's really a sense of man, this person might be doing my job better than I'm doing and that's a problem. Well, I'm glad A that I've tricked you into thinking that I watch a lot of golf.

B, I definitely agree that there is value in being on the ground. Definitely. And I've done both. I've got, I've, obviously, way more tournaments from a, from a broad than I have in person. But I've done the in person thing. I see the value in it. But at the same time, I have a hard time when I'm there seeing the big picture of the tournament. I get caught up in following one person or two people and kind of get, you know, focus

on that and enjoy that more than I do really know the actual tournament. Like if I had the option, obviously if I could have the option to cover the masters, I would do it, but I think I would have a hard time following the golf tournament from the golf course instead of watching on TV. So at times I feel like you're almost, and I know people sit in the press center and watch the end of a tournament so they can understand what's going on there and what not. But one question I wanted to ask you as far as when you're on the ground, you're talking to people, you're talking to wives, talking to caddies.

What's your general rule of thumb for when you're told something? What the rules are on having to keep that secret, right? Because we all know that there's, you know, you have relationships, guys tell you things and you have to, something stick out, it's like, well, I can't repeat that. But before you share anything, do you confirm it with somebody that you're allowed to share it?

I always wanted to like an industry tactic on that. Yeah, that's, it's a really fluid dynamic and my operating principle is I'm a reporter, we're at a tournament, anything you tell me is on the record and is usable unless you explicitly say it's not. And that's probably a more aggressive attitude than a lot of other reporters have and

I have gotten some blowback over the years but you know take like Bob Verde you have what he's called Uncle Bob he even for golf world before that Chicago Tribune and Uncle Bob knew everything every player told him every secret and he never printed any of it now it helped him build these relationships and so then when he want to go do a feature maybe the player is more inclined to say yes. On the other hand the guy is gonna die with three books worth of three material. That would kill me! I couldn't stand that. So you know obviously if you're if you're if you're standing with a guy and a pretty girl goes by and he comments on her figure in the end, and you know he's

married, like, is it worth putting out on Twitter and blowing the whole relationship up? Probably not. But if it's something that's germane that's, you know, a really important nugget of information about something that's topical. You got to go with it. Ultimately, my job is not to be buddies with the players. It's to service the readers and people want to know this stuff.

I've definitely had guys in my face. I think it was one point around the turn this the century when five of the top six in the world ranking weren't speaking to me. I've had Ernie L in my face. I've had Fioreg. I've had guys who were really pissed off about things that I wrote. But to me, it's sort of a badge of honor. It means you're doing your job.

If everyone's always happy with you, then you're probably being a little soft. But the conversation is if everyone's pissed off at you all the time, then you're just to get bailed and probably gone too far. So you have to find that happy place in between. But, you know, I'm a reporter and you're an athlete. And we're talking, you know, this, everything is an interview of Swords. Now, I, I, I will, I do, I do have some compassion and I do have some sensibilities, or I don't want to burn things to the ground for no reason. But in general, if you tell me stuff, I want to use it. And that's just how I feel. Okay. Well, you can save it until after we're done recording here because I want to know who was Cat calling at the woman the walk by.

But that's something that I definitely struggle with is based on what you just said. Like if everyone's happy, then you're probably too soft on them. Like as I've gotten to no players, I'm way too soft on them now. I feel bad. And that's just, that's a difference. Hopefully what I think is okay difference between how you do it and why I do it is I am coming just from the fan perspective. But yeah, I feel like once I get to know a guy, I'm always like afraid if I joke about him,

he's not going to get the joke or he's not going to think I'm joking. So I'll leave that, I'll leave the ruffling the feathers to you. But I have a question, before I forget to get to... tron is is demanding that i ask you this question and let me set let me say first i don't know what that any of this means okay for the record but uh... he wants to know how has the relationship between will martinson and tree tree mod evolved since trees time in the facility uh... well clearly i need to international FedEx overnight a copy of the Swinger to you.

That's the novel that I co-wrote with Michael Bamberger about a cross-cultural golfing icon whose life is torn asunder by a tabloid-fueled sex scandal. Now, what the inspiration for was that I cannot say, mostly on orders of Simon and Schuster lawyers, but some people think it's about Tiger Woods. I guess maybe in hindsight there's a few parallels. Will Martins on the surface seems to be a lot like Phil Mickelson, but so And in fact tree Tremont doesn't wind up in a sex addiction facility and It's the whole thing is explored in great detail. So that is what Tron is referring to

and the relationship has evolved on the page and I've actually been been pushing Bauer for years that we should write a sequel where the Will Martinson character would be the protagonist because there might be some great source material floating around out there if we could just pull it together from a whole series of different players would be a composite character, it wouldn't be based on Phil at all, but you know, you never know what mischief that will martens in my get it get himself into so not can still happen someday. We'll see you but You know that book is one I'm very proud of it definitely found a good readership when it came out And I think it's actually aged really well over the last three or four years as

As we've gotten to this late period of tiger Woods. And again, if you compare their lives, I guess there are some similarities. So yeah, I'm glad that Tron is a faithful reader and put it that way. He's been telling me about that book for honestly, like years. I'm not sure when that came out, but he has been brought up,

like at least annually for, I wanna say like six years, I have no idea when you actually released it, but I've heard enough about it I've never actually picked it up and read it so yeah you will have to send me a copy and I will read it but and I want to get I want to get to Randy's too before I forget he wants to know where the bodies are buried I don't know exactly what he means there but his real questions he wants to know what Bamberger's Twitter a Twitter handle is on his burner account

Yeah, I mean I love Bamberger. He's one of my best friends and He's a quirky guy, but you know what we were talking about before probably the two best golf writers of planet are Michael Bamberger and Jaime Diaz and neither one tweets. Yeah, maybe there's something to that Maybe there's something to that. Maybe they're not wasting all their time on stupid phones, but it's like, you know, I grandad, they're both in their 50s or however old they are. I mean, they're maybe pushing 60 by now. But, you know, it's hard to imagine if you were the best writer on the NBA beat, you wouldn't tweet or on NFL or, you know, majorly baseball. It's just another, you know't tweet or an NFL or a majorly baseball. It's just another marker of how...

And I love Jaime. Jaime's one of my mentors and one of my great friends. No disrespect either one because they're both tremendous at their jobs, but they're not on Twitter. That's where the golf fans get their information these days. And so it's just another way to acknowledge that the golf media is a little behind the times. Well, on the topic, we were just talking about the man himself. Again, I think at least in my head I try to avoid talking Tiger stuff to probably end up saying that more and more frequently every week.

But Tiger is making his regular PGA Tour season return for the first time in since almost two years. Do you have any major expectations for him this week? Will you be surprised if it makes the cut? What do you think a good week is for him? Well, making the cut would be a good week by definition. I was one of the guys on the ground, the hero. And it was impressive a lot of the shots he played.

I mean, I haven't seen Tiger had high towering draws with his driver in a decade. And he had a lot of really quality iron shots. Being that close to him, the body language, just hearing the strike, I thought the good stuff came out a week far outweighed the bad. You take any golfer, he was away from turning a golfer that long. They're going to make mistakes and clearly

tiger made a bunch. But I was encouraged, but realistically, he has a really long way to go. I mean, the short game issues are still there. That was encouraged, but realistically, he has a really long way to go. The short game issues are still there. The chip hips lives inside of you like a virus, and it is just waiting to flower at the worst possible time. He's going back to Tory Pines, which was the scene with a crime really.

In 2015, that was when it was really gnarly, so I would think that for Tiger a successful week is just hitting good shots, not you being, holding out his putts inside a three or four feet and whatever the numbers are, so be it, you know, he's got three more tournaments stacked up here in short order to try and build on it. But I'm still of the belief that Tiger comes back and wins any golf tournament, even as the Bob Hoat. It's one of the great accomplishments of his entire career. That's how tall the mountain is for him to climb.

Maybe I'm wrong, maybe he will reinvent himself yet again. But you look at just the way his game is deteriorated, the questions about his health, the incredible mental scar tissue that's come from shooting 85 memorial and taking a six inch divot on the first hole at the old course and all the other ritual humiliations he suffered, put three balls in the water, a congressional, a hundred yard hole in the hidden giggle situation. So many things have affected Tiger's self-image, and then you go back to the root cause of all this, the worst public shaming of the internet age and how that's destroyed his own self-image

and fundamentally changed who he is. I mean, I just feel like he's been so far gone that's destroyed his own self image and fundamentally changed who he is. I just feel like he's been so far gone and to think that he's going to get back to where he was is just wishful thinking. Was that supposed to make me feel better? I feel like at the beginning it did, but man, he went through about 10 really traumatizing things there. My confidence is that at all times low right now based on what you just told me. Well, I'm just trying to be a realist, I guess. So when you do that, people take you're a downer. But I mean, you just think about a tiger's been to the last couple of years. It's incredible that he's even back, that he's even thrown himself into the fire again. So I commend him for even trying, but I guess I

guess I need to see it to believe it. It's on pass a point of just being blindly optimistic. Yeah, I took a lot of, and I was very pleasantly surprised. He led the field in birdies, the hero. I thought he struck his irons almost as good as he could. All things considered. He wasn't mid- 2000s Tigers striking his irons, but I thought the T-Ball just had me a bit worried because he was missing both ways and those fairways are not narrow at Albany. And I feel like I have a hard time seeing him

playing from the middle of the fairway at Tori. So did you see enough, and I know you mentioned that he's moving the ball right to left and some kind of new developments there, but did you see enough from him off the tee to make you think that he can piece it together? Because I think that's the biggest question mark in his game right now It sounds like you're still concerned about the chipy-ups. I'm not as concerned with those But I'm just concerned about him getting off the tee

Do you think that's not maybe not as big of an issue as I'm making it out to be? No, I mean it's a huge issue and it's been pouring in California So that rough at Tori is going to be so wet and thick and juicy that it's going to be really penal. So yeah, the two-way miss is a concern. The reason that the fact that he was playing a draw was interesting is he's just played with so much fear off the tee. I mean Tiger's the first player ever saw hit a cut shot off number 13 and Augusta National. You know he was so afraid of trying to turn it over that he was playing a fade over the trees. I mean that's just the quintessential just

to step up there hit a big rope hook and I mean every tour player in the world hit that shot and Tiger lost the ability to do that. Some of it was technical, I think a lot of it was emotional and metaphysical. So that's why I thought those shots at Albany were of note. But, you know, he's only average to above average length at this point. So if you're not going to be crazy long, you have to be accurate. He's neither right now. So getting off a tee is a massive issue and will be until further notice. Bruce Kennerson wants to know he wants you to guess who Tigers paired with this week and I want to know within that do you have does Tiger have any pull or any or does Steine have any

pull on who Tiger gets ends up getting paired with. I mean so for for most of the tour history, it was just blindly spun out by a computer. And so that was always the fallback where anyone could say, you know, this was random. Oh, Tiger, I feel like you got paired with Phil. That's, we had nothing to do with that. But, you know, the last few years, I've been transitioning to these featured groups, and the tour has admittedly started monkey with the pairings. And at that point, everyone has a say in it and whether the tour wants to acknowledge that or not you know that it's

stineys in in jaymont hands ear and on down the list so whether or not it's listened to you and how much that gets micromanaged I can't really say but you know there's certainly some lobbying going on and honestly that I think I was part of why Tiger you know pressed eject at the safe way because Phil had really you know he made that big thing about it he wanted to be paired with him and then he you know sources close to turn and said it was going to happen and I'm like sure Tiger is like man forget that yeah that's my word that's my worst nightmare to go out there and I feel show me up and so You know, I could definitely see some behind the scenes lobby just to make sure that particular pairing doesn't happen

You know, I could see him that the tour wants tires succeed. They want him to be happy They wanted to feel taken care of because they still need them so I can see him getting you know map culture Or you know when I was old standbyes. That's it. You know when he came back from the scandal and played the masters as first he went back, I guess the national paradigm with a cout and that was a tiger's request and so that's a comfortable pairing for him. You know he has he has his guys that he likes but I can't say I really have any insight to who it's actually going to be But it'll be an interesting little

Supply when those parings come out. Yeah, I was just curious because of Patrick Reed being kind of a late entry into this tournament I thought that maybe I have no idea if that is the if there is any link there, but I just wouldn't be surprised I see the two of them paired together again considering he basically paired himself with him Down in Albany But you mentioned Jay Monahan and I'm curious you seem to you're you're quite the plugged in guy I Can't find anyone that has a negative thing to say about this guy when I talk to bones Bones went just almost out of his way to praise this guy and and to kind of rave about what the direction he

thought of the tour and where Jay was gonna take it. So, do you know Jay Monahan? Are you getting that same vibe from people you talk to and based on if you do know him, are you getting that same vibe from him? I am getting that same vibe and I'm deeply suspicious. It makes me uncomfortable how much people like this guy. I really don't know. I've been in a couple small group chats and I've seen them around, but I've never spent any quality time with a guy. I did in fact ask it to be on my podcast, got rejected. Two years ago, when he was made the deputy, I asked to do a story.

The tour shot me down saying that, you know, it's still Finchham's show. So I don't know if they're trying to protect him or if they have this big choreographed media roll out or you know maybe it's just these things he's busier than he is. But I haven't been spending time with him so I've heard all the same stories everybody else and I know his background I know this is very successes and He seems like a great choice. The people who do know him love the guy, so I'm detecting the same energy you are, but I have no insight there, and I'm hoping to get some.

I did a big story on Fitsham three or four years ago, and really got to be in his orbit and found that fascinating. I don't think Mon-Anne is as complicated as character as Fitsham is. He doesn't have the same kind of interesting background and politics and lawn. He's much more kind of a new generation. Mike Wands style leader trying to traffic and transparency and openness, where Fincham was of the Dean Beaman slash Kremlin school. So it's going to be an interesting contrast. And I think people are excited about, he's going to bring a certain sunlight to the tour

that's been lacking. But hopefully he's got a few demons and there's a few skeletons. Otherwise, it's going to be the world's most boring commissioner. All right. I was really just being courteous and waiting 40 minutes to ask this one because I think it's why most people are tuning in here. You're the last known person that I know that spoke with Anthony Kim. What can you tell us?

What do you know? Any developments that you did that feature piece on a moon was that? Was that last year or two years ago? No, it was, I think it was a fall of 14 actually. And subsequent to that, he did a little phone review of Doug Ferguson. So, Ferguson might be the last guy who has spoken to him. And I famously didn't get him. I taped the note on his front door because I'd been to his house in Dallas.

That led one of his boys to call me back and gave me a lot of insight and a lot of things. But, you know, AK spent a better part of a week dodging me and I tried hard. I mean, I went to the champagne room at this favorite strip club and I went to all his favorite bars. By the way, I might be the only guy who's expendable to expense, you know, $200 at baby dolls, but it's, again, you have to go where the story takes you and the readers have a right to know. So, yeah, so I've done some big stories in AK previously and that's why I thought he would talk to me. I spent some time around him. I like the guy, he's a fun character. I like what he brought between the ropes. I liked all the noise that followed him. I mean, that was needed.

It was a breath of fresh air. So, you know, after the story came out, a lot of people contacted me claiming to know the X, Y, and Z. And supposedly, he was renegotiating his big insurance payout. And that would allow him to get back into golf sooner rather later. But every day that goes by, it's less, less likely we're gonna see him, right? I mean, that's pretty obvious. So I've given up waiting on AK, but if he does decide to peg it, it's something you need to or event in Texas, I will be there because I'm deeply fasting by the guy. I love to watch the play again. It was a blast. What he brought to the game was great fun even if people didn't necessarily like it. I love it.

Yeah, that was an alternative fact for me that I forgot that you had just talked to his friends. Did any of his buddies get in trouble from that? Did you ever hear from his buddies that they... whoever you talked to, did anybody get in trouble for sharing too much information? This one particular guy was, he made, created a little disturbance in the force for him, but at the same time, he had an agenda. I mean, he was talking to me because he wanted to get AK off his couch. He was as frustrated as I was, and so it was a calculate move on his part and Honestly, I haven't reached out to him in a while so I don't know what he's doing But the people in AK's life come and go. I mean, that's just the nature of his life and and the people he attracts

So there's probably a whole new set of lackeys, but I haven't kept up with it. I don't know they are If it's anything like the, some of the DMs I've gotten, people claiming to know what he's doing, I've heard it all the way down to, he's trying to get his amateur status back. So I've kind of given up trying to trace it down and try to figure it out,

because like you said, every day that goes by is just one less, one less, the likelihood of it, if it ever, the comeback happening is minisc skill at this point But I'm refusing to give up Adam Sarsin. That's a great question. Who haven't you written a profile on that you'd still love to tackle or love a track down? Well, I just I just reeled that white whale in You know put a hard poo in through

So as part of the launch for the knockdown, I have a big feature on Pat Perez. He's a guy I've always been interested in. You know, prepare the fire emojis. He was spectacular, completely uncensored. It's a really, really fun story. I will tell you, it went to a large internal debate on what's a proper stylistically way to handle hand job. There's about, I can't even count the number of F-bombs and other bits of profanity that are at the story. It's hysterical. But I think

at the same time, you know, Pat's a very human guy. he's a very open book and he's sensitive in his own ways and I think I was able to bring that out too and it's a super fun read so he's he's um I you know I'm not ready to retire from from golf writing but I was happy to get that one done and I think people are gonna love that one that drops in a couple days. There's a few, I'm attracted to the fringe players, like the Kevin Nause, the Pat Perez, the guys who have a story to tell. I Jordan Speed is an interesting player, and I like to watch them play, but I'm not sure how deep you can go with him. You know, his life is

in a certain vein. There hasn't been a lot of... there's not many demons there. There's not that much dramatic tension in the narrative, although I would like to do a big story on Jordan at some point, but I think, you know, I'm always looking for less obvious people and of course I'm not a living you say who they are until it's in print so I can't totally give it up but I have my eye on three or four right now and I'm talking about different phases of the courtship and if I can get a couple of these in the barn they're going to be spectacular so I'll keep you posted. How about that?

Yeah, there we go. You can tell me offline as well. But, no, no, yeah, those are my favorite things that you do. I think as soon as those come out, it's an automatic read and almost an automatic share for me. And I want no exception to that obviously, was the DJ piece. And mustard tiger asked a great question. What didn't make it into the DJ

piece that you can share? That's a good one. You know, it was interesting because I've been writing about DJ for a long time and I actually, I, it's funny, I found myself in the middle of this whole little fling with Natalie Goldbiss. I went into hung out with Dustin in October, whatever that year was, in 2012, maybe at his place in South Carolina. He's living with his girlfriend, Amanda. We had three meals together, me, Dustin, and Amanda. We're on the boat, and she's part of the story because she's just there.

Then I go over to Capelua, and I'm standing by the clubhouse and Natalie sashes by, and I know Natalie, she gives me a hug, and I'm like, what are you doing here? She said, well, I'm kinda hanging out with Dustin. I was like, really? And she said, yeah, I'm gonna go out and follow him. I just got off the airplane.

And so I said, oh, okay, that's interesting. So now I'm in a little bit of a pickle here because I've got all this material I haven't written my story it was gonna come out in February so I'm like well you can't hide now that goal is and you especially can't do with that tournament which is so intimate when everyone's hanging out at the same hotel and there's no fans on the golf course and so I said all right I need to be the person to break this news. It might as well come for me. It's going to get out anyway. It may blow up this whole dust and feature, but, you know, so be it. So, and one thing that Natalie says to me is, you know,

I don't really want to be quoted about it. You know, you talked to Dustin. He's handling our PR. What? No, Dustin doesn't handle PR. Right away away that relationship was doomed. That's a Natalie thought. So, she goes out to follow him and I wait for Dustin behind 18 and he runs out of the scores 10 and sprints up the hill to the clubhouse and I can't catch him. The guy's a head start and he's faster than I am and he just flat out disappears. Now the reason why he can't seem Natalie, Natalie just got off the airplane. She's waiting in the hotel room for me. We know why Justin's in the hurry to go get there, right? And so, so now I'm like, God bless, I got a, I got a fact check this. I can't run it without getting Dustin. So again, since it's, it's Cap Liu, I know he's

staying at the Ritz. So I call the Ritz and Dustin, why not clever enough to have an, you know, an assumed name. So I said, yeah, can you take me to Dustin Johnson's room please? And sure enough, in phone rings, and now I'm getting nervous, like, what if he answers? I hadn't really thought about it, but he picks up the phone, he's like, panting, he's out of breath. I'm like, hey Dustin, now I'm sorry to bother you. He's like, dude, I gotta like, hey Dustin, I'm sorry to bother you. You're like, dude, I gotta go call me an hour, click. So, I might have, you know, he might have been a little busy at the moment.

If you know what I mean. And I call back in an hour, the fact check, you know, you never answers. I'm like, well, Nally told me whatever. I don't really need Dustin's comment. So, I write the story for golf.com. It blows up. It goes crazy everywhere. Next off, I write this Dustin story. And things fall apart in Natalie very quickly. Her people are sending me, they're calling me,

saying, hey, we sent out a tweet about Natalie and how she's been so classy in the breakup. And she has her own Twitter, man. I don't want to get any more involved in her already. in already yeah I'm like I'm doing dirty work on this breakup and so Dustin comes out to Pebble Beach for for the media day he's defending champ and so I catch him and you know this is this is probably late January. In fact you might have come straight from Capilluma now I think about it and I say to him I say hey man I sorry, I didn't mean to blow up your spot.

And he's like, ah, don't worry about it. It's like, how did Dustin Johnson get over, you know, whistling straights and all these other blobs of the nation? Well, he got over it pregnant, but now the goal was really fast, so clearly he can get over anything. So, that's a long answer to your question about Dustin. But now he's in a whole different part of his life and he's like this settled down, you know, family man and all he's doing is him to gym and he worked on swing and he really has become a lot more boring. And I think that boats well for his prospects to win in more majors

and get a number one and re-shape the sport and his image, which he certainly capable of, but I really did leave me a lot of juicy stuff with my notebook, so I'm sorry to disappoint. Oh my God, that's like, you did not just disappoint. I think that's the greatest story that's ever been told on this podcast before. So, man, it's making me really regret the time we spent talking about the golf media and knowing that I could have been tapping into some of these stories. Yeah, that was a funny one. I mean, I had misgivings about calling a hotel room because

I knew what was happening, but I just felt compelled to do so. Why did he answer the phone? Well, that's what's crazy. Don't answer the phone. There's no, there's no, there's no call I'm taking at that moment from DJ. It must have really been, you know, just interrupting his mojo. The phone was just ringing and ringing and ringing. So, yeah. Oh, man. All right. Well, maybe this is an opportunity to tell another one, but how would

Reese want to know what your most memorable athlete interview was? Most memorable athlete interview. Yeah. I mean, I was on a private jet with Rory flying across China, and that was cool just because of the setting and the intimacy. There's been some, there's been some like that where you just know it's kind of a fun little moment and you're certainly going to, it's going to, and live in your story. But probably the most memorable actually was I went down, and this was not even the golf beat, but I went to the the Super Bowl one is in South Beach back in you know 11 or whenever the Saints the Saints won it and Jeremy

Shaki caught the winning touchdown and whatever reasons I've been in touch that week with Luther Campbell aka Luke Skywalker of two live crew and I was trying to interview him for something and Shaki's a Miami guy. I knew he'd be with Luke celebrating on Sunday night and so I text Luke like three in the morning and he's like, yeah man, where at Club Cameo, come on down. And if you know Club Cameo, it is a little sketchy part of Miami and I show up and I'm like literally the only white guy there. And I kind of weave my way across the dance floor back to the VIP and there's this bodyguard, you know, at the Felbert Rope who's just immense and I give him my guard. I'm here for Luke and he just looks me up and I'm just like,

right on the movie. He looks me up and down, disappears, comes back, like kind of smirking and shaking his head like, I can't believe I'm letting this jabrony into my VIP. So he lets me in, insuring up shawkes back there, with like, a Jaren James and a bunch of other Miami guys, and they're having a great old time. And he won't talk to me. He has no interest in talking to me, but the guy caught the winning, you know,

touched out the Super Bowl. So I kind of hang out. I'm just, I'm gradually getting bodied into this corner, like away from the center of, of where things happen, just by the, the crush of humanity. And then I look over next to me and his Rick Ross, the rapper. And he put, he's got a blunt that's the size of like a baseball bat and he sees me and he's like oh I'm gonna haze the white guy and he starts blowing smoke right at me and unlike totally buzz just standing there and I never did get a comment from Shokie but I I sent all this into the guy who was writing the

game story because I don't count like this but to the party anyway. A bunch of the some of the color from that night made into the story and that in his own weird way was totally memorable and then I don't leave the club into like 6 AM and my flight was at 10. Like should I go and sleep for two hours now just stay up? So I was like eating pizza and salad to be just seven in the morning watching you know I wouldn't make the walk of shame out of hotel It was just like this strange loosen agenda kind of night But anytime you get a Rick Ross Luke Skywalker and the Super Bowl here all in the same place at the same time

It was memorable. Yeah, I'm not sure that qualifies an athlete interview, but the story stands there, I think. So I'll allow it. It was athlete color, but it was observational reporting. Get back to a couple quick golf ones. I just wanted to get your thoughts on what you're hearing from any guys out there, or any reaction from what we're seeing from Bryson DeChambo with the face on putting.

I don't know if you have any relationship with Bryson or what or if you have any thoughts on this funky putting style he's going with. Well for sure in the fall of 2015 I did a big story on Bryson and it's been a lot of time with him at this this really low red municipal golf course where he works on his game. It was in Frenzo, California, it was December, it was freezing, there's no heater, he's sitting in the space of this vinyl tent. I mean, it's so cool in its own weird way. And even then, he was telling me that he was going to go face on putting in some point.

What he said to me was, I just got to get my tour card secured, and I'm going to do it because he went through all the reasons why and all the data. He said it is by far the most effective method of putting. He didn't want a couple amateur events in doing it and his teacher Mike Sy was telling me that he studied it with Bryce and he said no one's ever put it as well as Bryce and his put it face on putting. It's just the mechanics of it, the way his eyes work, and he said he was going to set this game on fire if he actually does it on tour. So now what's happening? So this has been in the works for a while. I mean, Bryson has been working on this for

this not out of desperation. This is his rock, his bedrock belief that it's a superior method and that it's going to change the game in some fundamental way. And he does enjoy being in contrary and there's always an element of that to whatever he does, but I think he's in this for the long haul. When you think about it, I mean this example has been told many times before, but any other sport where there's a target, your eyes are on the target whether it's a catchers mid or it's a basketball rim or whatever and so I think it makes sense. I mean personally I'm standing over putt sometimes and I forget what the line is you know like you I just lose it in my head you get disoriented because you're thinking about your backstroke or

your your feeling that the slope and your feet or whatever it is. I mean it's easy to lose the line and then you want to look back and you stand over the ball forever and it makes perfect sense. Now you know Bryson has put in hundreds of hours of this putting stroke. He was doing this you know a year and a half ago. So whether other players are going to make the switch, I don't know, but I think you're going to see juniors take this on. And just like, you know, when I was out at this course, Dragonfly, there was, you know, a dozen little Brycens run around all playing the single-length set because they have the same teacher and they have the same belief, and they have Brycens a role model.

And so, I think it may bubble up organically from younger players who just started at an earlier age But I'm not convinced that the current method of putting is the best way to do it and you know maybe Bryson is right I've heard I've several people have sent me like pictures of USGA rules on the vertical shafted putter and all these angles and stuff I haven't bothered reading it because I just don't care about that But I found this interesting. I did hear a nugget that he has received a phone call from the USGA that they are not crazy about the way

that he is gripping the putter. Have you heard anything in that regards? I haven't, but I'll actually ask Bryce the next time I see him. You know, does anyone care with the USGA things at this point? I mean, the credibility has been so shot. It's like, you know, maybe you'll have to make an adjustment. I don't know.

But is it that fundamentally different than what Adam Scott does? You know, when he was using the broomstick, not against his chest, but still as an anchoring point? I mean, I think that if the USGA is going to start picking on Bryson, Bryson is going to develop more fans and more support. I think everyone likes a trailblazer, even if they can be haughty about it as a, you know, occasionally Bryson can be. I like the guy a ton, but he can be such a evangelist. I know he wrote some people the wrong way, but he really does believe this is the best method. You know, I've gotten very curious to see how far he takes it.

Yeah, a lot of people think I hate him. I just like to make fun of him. I think he's an interesting guy. I think he's good for the game and whatever that means But I do find him interesting and I want to see him succeed I think it would be I think it'd be fun story to follow if he does We'll get you out of here on this one last question from the fried egg These guys are really into golf architecture and they definitely know what they're talking about But he wants to know how you would compare San Valley to other Wisconsin courses like Whistling Straits, Aaron Hills or where it ranks nationally for you.

Yeah, I love San Valley. I played it right after the Ryder Cup. It's so much more user-friendly than Wistling Straits or Aaron Hills where you know both those courses it's just like 18 punches to the nuts when you play out there and you know San Valley is very playable. Looks to me is a good thing. Toughness is not a compliment in how I want golf to be fun. I want courses to be quirky and I don't want to lose 10 balls around. I want to be able to play different shots. Aaron Hills is so penal and Wistling Straits is too. The fairies basically are red-stakes on both sides it feels like. So I loved everything about San Valley. It's not as unspectacular a piece of ground. Some of these other neo-classic golf courses. It's a little more gentle, but David McClade Kid was there.

He's working on the second course I walked him with him and he actually got the better site. He has a lot more movement and is a lot more topographically interesting. So I think it's going to be a home run as a destination. They have 10,000 acres. They can put as many courses they want out there. So it really is probably going to wind up with three or four courses and be the band and dunes of the Midwest.

And the first course is just so much fun to play. And you step off it and you're like, you know what? I like to play that again right now. So that's my ultimate test. I don't really feel the same way about Aaron Hills or Wistling Straights, even. I step off of those and I need like to aspirin and martini so um of those three I probably prefer sand valley. Perfect I'm uh I'll be back to Chicago based in like six months so it doesn't sound like it'd be far away from me at all so um all right Alan Shipnick I'll let you go with that

thank you for now your time unless you think there's anything out there that we missed. Well I think there's a lot of things based on the questions that trickled in, but... I know. We're testing the patience of your listeners already, so... No, this was great fun. Thanks for having me. Quite a lively chat. And it's good to... I appreciate your perspective from far away. It's a nice counterbalance to all the people here in the in the press room.

So, that things, thanks for giving it back to me. Yep, you bet, Alan. Thank you for the time, best of luck with the launch of the knockdown. We'll be sure to check that out. Look forward to hearing your podcast with Phil as well. And we will do this again sometime. This is a lot of fun. And yeah, there's a lot more we can touch on. I'm sure. And we'll say, we'll save up some stories for next time too. Okay, deal. All right. Thanks Alan Get a right club beat a right club today

That's better than most Better than most. How about in? That is better than most. Better than most. Expect anything different.