No Laying Up - Golf Podcast - NLU Podcast, Episode 625: Kyle Porter - Normal Sport 2

Starting point is 00:00:00 I'm going to be the right club today. Yes! That is better than most. How about him? That is better than most. Better than most. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to the No Leng a podcast. Sully here had a chance to sit down last week with Kyle Porter of CBS to talk about his book, A Normal Sport. This is volume two.

Starting point is 00:00:38 This is recapping the last year in golf. I cannot recommend it highly enough, which I'll make very, very clear throughout the course of the interview, the conversation. We kind of meander through the book a little bit, but kind of get sidetracked in a lot of different ways, talking about all the things that have happened this past year, the actual golf in some ways. Rory, of course, we went deep in on Rory about an hour and a half in or so. It's a blast. Great talking to Kyle.

Starting point is 00:01:01 Great to do it in person. And again, I cannot recommend the book highly enough. It's just a very, very funny, refreshing, different look and summary of the year in golf, which I describe as we go through it. Today's episode is brought to you by our friends at Woop, the official fitness wearable of the PGA tour. If you are looking for the perfect fitness kit for yourself or your loved ones as holiday season,

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Starting point is 00:02:15 Here is Kyle Porter. All right, the book is called Rory, Rory, Rory. And the author is with us right now here to tell us all about, you can gather what it's about from the name of the book, Mr. Kyle welcome it yeah thank you for having me it's been I did do a I did a word search on the different names obviously in the book and different stuff Rory wasn't our top name really yeah it was it was a combination of Tiger and Cat so if So if you add those together, that was actually the bigger number.

Starting point is 00:02:48 Live, I won't say how many times I was mentioned in there, but it was substantial. It was a lot. I have not finished the book. I got about three quarters of the way through it. We're recording this little earlier than we were planning to because we happened to be in the same city for once, which is a rarity. I was pleasantly surprised reading it in terms of how much joy the year brought. Yeah. How much interesting stuff happened that wasn't necessarily about live. I guess I don't know. There was just

Starting point is 00:03:18 enough interesting content in it that wasn't about the things that I've hated about this year. I don't know if that was a conscious decision or thought in your mind. It covers the live part very well and thoroughly, but it's not necessarily a book all about live. No, the through line was live, right? Like in the same way that 2021, the through line was Bryson. I mean, that was like beginning to end. It was, it was, it seems like forever ago. Oh my gosh. It feels like it was 15 years ago, but the through line for Bryson. I mean, that was like beginning to end. It was, it was, it seems like forever ago.

Starting point is 00:03:45 Oh my gosh, it feels like it was 15 years ago, but the through line for 2022 was live. So we talked a lot about, and we can get into like who contributed to the book and everything, but we talked a lot about, okay, how are we gonna do the live thing? Are we gonna do like a live only chapter? Are we going to do like a choose your own adventure?

Starting point is 00:04:04 Like here's how you see it through the eyes of Liv here's how the PJ tour saw it and in the end we decided like Liv is a through line we have to just weave it in and out of the entire book but it was kind of purposeful by me to start the book off talking about the Tiger and Charlie stuff because that's kind of where we ended last year was right for the P the father son P and C stuff because that's kind of where we ended last year. Yeah. It was right before the father sent a PNC championship. And that was, I felt like a really good sort of launching pad for this is not just the fracturing of golf and everything that happened with Liv.

Starting point is 00:04:39 It was also Tiger and Charlie. It was also Shafur winning four times. And so it really, I felt like even for me and my head set the tone, the Tiger and Charlie. It was also chef or winning four times. And so it really I felt like even for me and my head set the tone the Tiger and Charlie stuff set the tone for the rest of the book because there was so much joy in that. I mean that was the PNC last year was like it was one of them days or two days stretches of the year, right? We did not schedule like a recap for that time period and I remember and at that week, I put on the counter for next year, I was like, we need to recap at the PNC. The

Starting point is 00:05:11 fall's going to kind of center around this event. Yes. I'm sure you're going to play in it. Like it was legitimately captivating. Some of the Charlie Wood stuff, I think, creeps a lot of us out and worries a lot of us. But yeah, at the same time, Claire's tweet, I go back to that all the time of like, there's one more person that's more excited to watch the play golf and Tiger. It's Tiger son. And it's his son. I mean, it's unbelievable.

Starting point is 00:05:32 And that was really like the whole normal sport thing is, I mean, you know, it's just a bit and it's silly, but the start of the book is like, hey, two chicken wing restaurant ambassadors dress like Santa and then beat, you know, Tiger and his son in this event. the start of the book is like, hey, two chicken wing restaurant ambassadors, dressed like Santa, and then beat Tiger and his son in this event. This is the dumbest thing ever. And yet, I mean, to see whatever they had, 10 circles in a row, 10 birdies in a row on Sunday, the PNC.

Starting point is 00:05:59 So all that to say, there were other moments like that throughout the book that you're like, oh yeah, this was awesome. Even though a day afterward it got overshadowed by live or Greg Norman or whatever. And that was the stuff that you and I had to like cover throughout the year. And so we just immediately forgot all the good stuff. Jokes aside, the book is called Normal Sport. Two. Normal Sport, two. This is your second iteration of the book. called Normal Sport. Two. Normal Sport, two. This is your second iteration of the book. You wrote this last year. You explained the bit of Normal Sport for those that maybe didn't get it last year or

Starting point is 00:06:33 unfamiliar with it. Explain the origin of it. Yeah, so I think actually one of the, I think the first place that it was ever used was at the, at the Wingfoot US Open 2020. So Phil Michelson's in a a of all people is in a bunker and he's like choked up to the shaft. I mean his hands are on the metal. He's got like one foot out of the bunker

Starting point is 00:06:54 and you're like the like if you just walked upon this person on a golf course, you'd be like, what is this guy doing? Like this looks absurd. And so it just became this like golf, I think maybe more than any other sport provides these moments where you're like, why does this guy have his pants off and he's like in the water swinging a club and there's somebody next to him with a book reading about

Starting point is 00:07:14 the rules. I believe reading him as rights. I mean, like, there's all these just preposterous moments in golf. And so it became this like, oh, yeah, normal sport type thing. Obviously making fun of these these ridiculous moments. Well, and it's also what kind of permeates through a lot of this stuff is the fact that the playing spaces of golf are not confined. Right. You explore these vast, you know, fields and you weave in and out of all these random places. And there's these hazards along the way. There's rope lines. There's all kinds of weird stuff. Roblox, Roblox, Roblox, tough scene. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:07:50 At one point in a year. And, you know, a football game is played within, you know, exactly the confines. But I started like looking at other sports now thinking about like, you could do on about football. Totally. I know. I know. Like whether or not a guy's knee is down and inches of astroturf kicking up and defiding the first down. Well, they're the world cup. I mean, the offsides stuff. Like we were joking.

Starting point is 00:08:16 I guess it was the US game recently. There was an offsides call that went against the US and they have computer technology. And I said, listen, a real sport would bring out the chain game and pull a string to see if he was off-sides. So yeah, you could do it for other sports. I try to ignore that. I do think golf is unique in what you said of like,

Starting point is 00:08:42 it puts you in situations. Okay, so like, growl her up in a tree at Pubble. Like looking for, I think it was Sergio's ball or something like somebody's ball. And you're like, okay, that actually doesn't happen on a basketball court, right? And so there are like bringing nature into the sport, I think does create some very unique situations for

Starting point is 00:09:07 for the for golf. And that's where I kind of weave back and forth on this year being so obviously completely unnormal and wonder and kind of like looking at other sports and just like Christian Christian Ronaldo signed this week, whatever with a Saudi Arabian football team, soccer team, whatever you want to call it. And you know, live has brought so much attention on golf. It's a topic of conversation at parties and wherever you go. What's your take on this whole live thing? It's like, if you want to know, we've published a lot of content about that. Believe it's well documented. Please, buy my book. It's well documented. But it is kind of like, you know, it's so unnormal for this sport to this date to be taken over, you know, the game be taken over by a foreign monarchy to use, you know, the commissioner's words.

Starting point is 00:09:54 Yet it does happen in other sports. It's been happening in other sports. It's happened in golf from other Arab states over the course of the last several years. And I guess I'm the, you know, as it further evolves, is it was this more inevitable than we ever realized. And, you know, because we are so in the weeds on a lot of this stuff where we're not able to see the kind of the big picture and how vulnerable golf was to be bought like this. Yeah, I think two things. One, I started off the book a little bit talking about F1 because we've seen it throughout that sport, right?

Starting point is 00:10:23 Over the past several years, I don't follow it. As closely as some people, but it's certainly there. And I think that, so I think that was a little bit of a, kind of a foreshadowing for me, of like, oh, okay, like this, you know, even thinking about Saudi Arabia and the F1 stuff in at the end of last year, You're like, oh, this is actually a harbinger for what's to come for golf. But I think the thing about golf

Starting point is 00:10:49 that really stood out to me throughout the year and in the book, and this is like the big debate, right, is it's so niche. It's so, and this is almost like why the book works because it's like just this Tiny well relative to other sports. It's a tiny group of people Involved in this ridiculous thing and everybody's kind of like in on the joke wink wink at each other and it's it's super fun But the Saudi Arabian thing and and live it it's it's just and I mentioned this in the book several times It's the fracturing of an already tiny sport

Starting point is 00:11:25 Yeah, you know big enough. There's not enough pieces really to go break off And it's in so when Christiana Ronaldo signs of Saudi Arabia, you're like okay, whatever Why does that really affect soccer? It's a other sports are able to absorb stuff like that so much easier than golf can And that's why when people are like why do you why do you care about live? It's like, man, this is, and it was hard to tell in the moment because at DJ PiHowski said this, he contributed a great chapter, but there's only so much outrage you can have day after day, and tell it becomes like, okay, whatever, man. But you look back at the end and people are like, why do you care so much about this? It's like, because I want this sport to be around for 50 years at the professional level,

Starting point is 00:12:09 and I want to cover it in the same way I'm covering it now, and that might not be the case if it continues to fracture and split off and split off and split off. I think golf is uniquely vulnerable in that way. Yeah, that's what I wanted to about. I don't know enough about tennis to weigh in on that, but that seems, yeah seems as an individual sport, that seems to be the only other comp really

Starting point is 00:12:29 in terms of things that would be for sale. And again, I don't know enough about that to really opine on that. But that is what is looking back at is what made golf so vulnerable was individual careers can be bought. They're not under contract with teams and things like that. I don't know. It still is, it's, it feels very normal now and it feels very, not to, not to play on words

Starting point is 00:12:51 there, but like it feels it's a part of the E.C. golf ecosystem now. And again, I started this by saying the book is not all about live, and I went straight straight to that one. But it is, I guess what, what were some things in the process of putting this together that you look back on there that are highlighted in the book that you maybe kind of forgot about or maybe I would have forgotten about or that the listener may have forgotten about

Starting point is 00:13:15 that happened in this past year. Yeah, I've got a list right here. We can go through, we can just start going down with it. Tiger sat down next to a motorcycle at the Hero World Challenge. And he should be riding one this week. We're recording this through the motorcycle at the Hero World Challenge. And he should be riding one this week. We're recording this during the week of the Hero World Challenge. He needs to be playing riding one of those golf motorcycles this week.

Starting point is 00:13:31 We just don't even bat an eye. We're like, oh, the best player of all time sitting next to a motorcycle at this conference. And it's just like, okay. Can we pause before we go through this? And I've paged this compliment privately as well. But what I love about this book is, it is like for the golf Twitter Adi,

Starting point is 00:13:47 like if you listen to podcasts, if you follow golf on Twitter, if you're a part of social media at all, it's like a, not a summary, it's not a chronological, but it's not just an all-man-act of like what has happened in the past year. It's like through your eyes, and the way you tell the story through footnotes,

Starting point is 00:14:02 like I see a footnote next to something, I'm like, I cannot wait to get to the bottom of this page and see what little snarky comment he makes underneath that. And it is a way of telling the story of the year of golf through your eyes. Yet it's not about you. It's just you can list off what happened and it not be as interesting as you're pausing to reflect on little things as it happened. And I just I told you you sent me like three chapters in advance early.

Starting point is 00:14:27 And I sent you basically a shapel, you know, scratching my neck. You got any more chapters because I can't keep going. I'm dying over here. I do want to read one part. The only part I sent you of like, dude, this is, you're not getting this anywhere else. That's what I hope, I hope that people, I appreciate you saying that. And I do hope that people, I hope when they read, and I do hope that people, I hope when they read it, they're like, hey, I'm not getting this anywhere else.

Starting point is 00:14:50 Like, I hope that's the reaction. It's a unique thing that is told in retrospect, so we have different perspective on the year now at the end of it than we did in the moment. So much of the live stuff, it was so hard in the moment to contextualize it. And even now it's still hard, but it's a little bit easier. And we try to do it informally. And I think this is hopefully where the magic happens

Starting point is 00:15:17 is like somebody pointed out last year, he was this person was like, hey, you didn't use Roy's last name at all in the book. But you never used his last name and it was true And I don't even know that I meant to do that But it was like listen if you're picking up a book with an anthropomorphic shark on the front flexing You probably don't need to know like what you probably already know what Roy's last name is right You probably don't need Dustin Johnson spelled out. You know who DJ is.

Starting point is 00:15:45 Yeah. And so I think it's informal, but I also tried to kind of go deep on a couple different things that happened throughout the year. So hopefully it's a good mixture of all that. Well, the story I'll spoil here is about what happened to the waistband with this year with Charlie Hoffman, where he, if you're not familiar with the story as well covered at the time but he takes to Instagram to get very mad at the PGA tour for his ball he hits a ball into the water has he's got to take a drop on a hill drops the ball but then it proceeds to roll back into the water and he has to take a penalty he gets mad because he thought the rule changed and it didn't and he takes to Instagram

Starting point is 00:16:25 to complain about it and tag a bunch of random tags. He tagged a rigs. Yeah, and he tags a red and your sentence in the book is, is it normal for athletes to be generally unhappy with their league's rules, especially with those rules work against them? Sure. On the other hand, is it normal for an athlete

Starting point is 00:16:43 who is unhappy with the direction of a few blades of grass laid down in a sporting event to tag in another event run by the financial arm of an at times hostile government to protect him from a group of rules officials that have proven over and over again, they will go to tremendous legs to cater to the very category of golfer in which Hoffman falls. I don't think it is. The pause there at the end that's slain because I can hear your voice. I don't think that's normal. I mean, it truly is just yeah, there's just stuff like that. And I think that you know, one of our taglines is this is everything that matters and a bunch of stuff that probably didn't. Right. Right. And so it's like, that's something that didn't matter at all. And yet, if you frame it in a certain way, you're like, this is truly preposterous. It's amazing. And that framing, and I think you

Starting point is 00:17:38 guys do such a good job of this, that framing of stuff in a certain way, is, it's normally like, we just use it for fun or to like make jokes or whatever. It was actually helpful this year for live because you're like actually, let's look at this from a different angle and this is a lot crazier than you actually think. You know, so that became a, I thought a useful skill throughout 2022 in a way that it wasn't before. Well, and it's also that instance alone is such an interesting look into the mindset. I don't want to paint all tour players

Starting point is 00:18:11 under the same way, but I'll look into this concept of these dudes sitting around talking to each other and being aggrieved by things on the PGA tour, which is incredible. It really is incredible. It's not to say that things are perfect for every individual, but it's just a complete loss of reality or lack of touch with like what, Charlie Hoffman, I'm sorry, you are not important enough

Starting point is 00:18:37 to do this. Like, you're on the board of the, you're on the, the, was he on the board of the PGA tour? He's on the pack of the of the PJ or whatever he was at the time? He was he was he used to be on the 16 person the pack. Yeah. And now he's he's part of the the advisory board. Yeah. And it's like you're the you're the part you're part of like the policy making in this right. And he's also like complaining about and again, this is goes back to the agree part. You're also complaining about something that the PGA tour doesn't. You're, it's a USGA issue. And you're complaining to the PGA tour and Saudi Arabia and rigs, attack rigs into it. It was unbelievable. And it is also like, the Saudi league is not addressing

Starting point is 00:19:23 this problem. They're going to play by the rules of golf as well. Allegedly, I mean, it's not like, I don't know if they really have verification if they're doing that, but it's not like they're, they're like, oh, don't like the ruling. You get to decide what you want to do. You know, this is, this is why guys are going to other leagues. It was just what a incredible look into how these guys, well, some of these guys have lost touch.

Starting point is 00:19:43 But also at the same time, a theme that I see throughout it is just this, all of this random justification for taking boat loads of money. I mean, guys, like being comfortable with that decision, all of the rationalization, all that I wanna play less, all the reasons guys have given for joining live is all like a distraction for like,

Starting point is 00:20:02 it was a bunch of money, dude. Like I know exactly why. Stop, we can see right through all this Yeah, all right. What else you got? Okay, so tiger sitting next to me. I'm gonna say go Bryson I forgot about this Bryson saying that Chris Pratt yes helped helped him through a tough time in life by telling him to play a fictional character of himself mm-hmm and It's this is where the Bryson stuff you just you start to like you just get numb to it You're like, oh yeah sure what's next on this? I don't even pause like break it down because it's like yeah, of course

Starting point is 00:20:32 Jim nance calling a game for Marrow head was We're calling a golf tournament for Marrow forgot about that He's he's in like gloves and up and a beanie and he's calling he's talking about the tacos in lohoya. You're like, okay. That was that was because he was getting ready to call the super. No, it was the chiefs bills. I think it was aFC championships weekend.

Starting point is 00:21:00 Gotcha. Was the thing because remember they ended. They ended farmers on Saturday. That's right. Yeah, and then chiefs bills was on was on Sunday. I forgot about this Donald Trump called John daily. Yes To talk about Putin And it was on speaker phone is John Daley was John Daley a cabinet member like a way What is there a reason why they're they're catching up over these issues? He's planning for 2024. He might be a he might be running for like governor of Arkansas or something

Starting point is 00:21:34 You serve you like the through on from daily to or from Clinton to John Daley pause just for a second How did live not pursue or get John daily? I don't know. I mean, who are the most surprising people that they didn't get? Scott Piercy? Scott Piercy, Grayson Murray. I think a different note, I don't... Originally, it felt like Justin Rose was a part of this. And that never materialized.

Starting point is 00:22:00 Jason Day seems like it would have fit in a certain way. Adam Scott, I feel like was long rumored with about this way back in the day. When we're talking like we're still trying to figure out what this thing was. hilarious relicin is us trying to talk about this in October like 31st 2021. I don't feel bad. We got a lot of stuff wrong in that. We struggled to like concept out the league versus the international series.

Starting point is 00:22:24 And I don't feel bad because there was no information out there at all. But it is hilarious to go listen back to it because amongst some really bad information, there's parts where we're like, who do we think the first person is that's going to leave? And before you get the question out, DJ just like, fill. Sure. So it's absolutely going to be filled. And then there's a part that will just be like,

Starting point is 00:22:45 yeah, who's gonna go watch like Co-Crack and Kevin Nonplates? Like, hey, that happened. Yeah. Well, the thing about, and this, okay, so the way that we're talking is sort of for people that are listening to sort of how live is in the book, where it's like, it's not the whole thing, but it's sort of weaved in and out everywhere.

Starting point is 00:23:04 You and I are kind of jumping back to it, but then getting back to what happened throughout the year. So that's kind of emblematic of how the book goes. Okay, we got a few other things here we've got. So there was a, I think it was actually a groundhog in a motorized boat at the Phoenix. And the reason that was so funny, I called it a beaver in the book.

Starting point is 00:23:28 I didn't change it, whatever. They're all in the same family. So Hith hit that ball in the water on 17 horrible bounds. Just went straight left. And it goes in the water and it's like this, it's this sort of crescendo of the entire tournament, like this dramatic moment where saw Heath is about to win, he's about to be Cantler and Shuffle

Starting point is 00:23:49 and all these guys. And his ball goes in the water and they cut back to him and he's kind of staring at it and then they cut back to the water and you just see this groundhog zip by and a motorized boat and you're like, I don't know why that's happening, why it's there, but that was, that was incredible.

Starting point is 00:24:09 That event is, I'm amazed that there's not more events that at least try to emulate some of that. It's amazing how much that event stands out in terms of on the calendar, both going to in person, been a lot of tour events. I always used to make fun of and doubt the attendance numbers, like they're way overestimating. There's no way that that's many people. It's a festival, it's incredible.

Starting point is 00:24:31 And I just amaze that no one has looked at that model and tried to figure out how they've managed to make that happen. I do think it would be hard if you tried to emulate that. People at UNI would make fun of you for doing that. Yeah, and it's not like copy. It's just like what makes why do so many people go to this? Yeah, right. And that's an evolution all the way back to the 90s.

Starting point is 00:24:51 Right. It's not going to happen overnight. Yeah. But it's I'm just surprised that that event stands out that much. Yeah. OK, moving down the list, Troll Haddon went with the he's done this before, but he took a fake shot gun out and 13 at Augustine just just started shooting as Ali.

Starting point is 00:25:08 That's not great. Didn't like Augusta, right? He had some issues with Augusta. He didn't like Augusta and he didn't like, somewhere else, maybe Southern Hills? Probably. Patton, Gazair, lost his mind about Southern Hills. Matt Fitzpatrick hates the old course.

Starting point is 00:25:24 I gotta give Patton credit. I saw. Matt Fitzpatrick hates the old course. I got to give Pat and credit I saw I ran into him shortly after the the PGA knows like hey, we had to have a pretty good go at you He's like, oh, yeah, I deserve that one Okay, the Phil dinosaur head stuff. I mean I went down kind of a Rabbit hole with that he what is the filled dinosaur head stuff for people? Allenship, no, reported that he was reporting on Phil's gambling and debts and all this stuff. And he just sort of casually mentioned that Phil has like a dinosaur head. And I found this old golf digest article where he's talking about how the dinosaur head

Starting point is 00:26:02 that he was given as a gift, his priceless tomb, it's brought as family closer together, which I mean, what family hasn't been brought closer together by dinosaur head. That's what my family's missing apparently. So that was bizarre. An equipment company put two lanterns on the staff bags of its players at the US open. And some of them were from the United Kingdom. That was, that was, that was made bags. That was, I didn't know if we could mention Tamiya, of course. That was, that was incredibly normal.

Starting point is 00:26:36 Like I had the American independent state on the Rory's carry. Tommy Fleetwood is just, is just, you know, lugging around. That was the same way that we got smiley and JT to dab on the green monster, just the reigning PGA champion, David on the green monster. Tom Hogi hit a ball over a turkey that week. You have Brooklyn, normal stuff. That's the nature part where you're like, you're not getting this in the NBA finals.

Starting point is 00:27:00 I'm sorry. I forgot about this, but at the match play, they had a ruling where they, they, Thomas Peters' ball was on a sprinkler head, but he wasn't able to drop because it was in a penalty area. The red paint was over, over, hanging over the, there was, there were like blades of grass in which that red paint was on there were touching the sprinkler head so it's considered a penalty area. So what I what I didn't remember is they came and redrew the out of the

Starting point is 00:27:34 penalty area right they redrew it during the event which didn't really affect anything because it was match play but the crazy the crazier part is that while they were on their way to redraw, I mean, I don't know how many people it, I don't know how many people it takes, but very well, all these people were on their way with spray paint to read, which imagine that happening. And like, we need to re chalk the infield in the Phillies, Astros, the game four, like we just got to go, but like you're re chalking at different areas absurd. Quick break here to check in with our friends at Draft King's golf fans,

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Starting point is 00:28:55 That's code NLU only DraftKings Sportsbook minimum age and eligibility restrictions apply. See show notes for details. Let's get back to Kyle Porter. It happened again to of course, Bryson, of course. And they gave him a free drop, even though they hadn't redrawn the area. So they were basing it on a future line that they were about to draw.

Starting point is 00:29:15 That's where I love to, that Peter's getting upset with the, the PGA tour rule staff, we have to draw how many lines around every golf course every week. Yes. Like, yeah, you guys were, you missed drawing this line. You were off by fractions of an inch. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:29:29 And that is representative of so many issues we have with the BGA tours. Like, oh my God, guys, come on, come on. So it's stuff like that. When I say everything that mattered and a bunch of stuff that probably didn't, that did not matter at all. And yet, it's just sort of this hilarious thing that we all rally around. But it's like part of what golf content is now, right?

Starting point is 00:29:51 These incredibly inane things that don't matter at all yet are funny and make it, like did you see what happened with Dylan Fertelli hitting a ball out of a tree? Yes. With a two-shot penalty? I've got that in it. I mean, honestly, it brings levity to,

Starting point is 00:30:07 there's only so many times you can be like, oh, that's a great shot. That three-wood was unbelievable. It's like, okay, yeah, I've seen all the three-woods. So it brings some levity to the moments that are actually meaningful throughout the year. I think it provides a good balance to it. One, it's, yeah, I remember, you know,

Starting point is 00:30:23 a bad example, I can't, you know, I can't think off the top of my head, who won AT&T this year. I think it was Hogi, is that right? Hogi beat the speed. But I remember like the hoveland, Joel Damon and Berger exchange on the 16th hole at TPC Sawgrass, which had no effect on the, you know, the final, you know, outcome of that tournament. yet a lot of the just, there's so much about, so much more about golf events about what happens out there that's outside of who wins and who loses. Totally.

Starting point is 00:30:53 And that's, I think that's why a lot of people that are probably listening right now, even tune in or listen to this podcast or read normal sport is like for the absurdity of it. It's a weird ecosystem where it's like what has been created amongst golf content creators kind of becomes the joke like it you start viewing golf. At least I get feedback on that. You know from listeners and followers that view golf through the lens of like, oh god they're going to have a field day about this on the podcast.

Starting point is 00:31:22 And players start doing this. Exactly. And they're like, oh, Porter's going to have a tweet about this. I know that would as soon as I see something happen, it's like, well, God, they're gonna have a field day about this on the podcast. And players start doing this. Exactly. And they're like, oh, I'm ported to gonna have a tweet about this. I know that would as soon as I see something happen, it's like, well, this will be a normal sport tweet here. Well, that would be two. One, exactly. And that's, there was, I think it was, I didn't experience this,

Starting point is 00:31:36 but somebody was telling me that Victor Havelin had told them, like, something happened. He was like, oh, a normal sport, right? And so it becomes this, like, sort of, and this goes back to the kind of informality of it. It becomes this just kind of like inside baseball, inside joke type thing. I, so funny story, like our copy editor this year,

Starting point is 00:31:55 Hannah Diner, she's one of my friends, and she doesn't follow golf at all, which is great. But it also, like, when she went through and copy edited the book, I've tried to picture somebody editing this book that doesn't follow the She I'm gonna read you a text thread that that we had Between her and my wife and her house like the two couples because she's like this is Nonsense. Yeah, it's mixed like the things you're saying. You can't publish this things you're saying are not and I'm like Just just make sure there's no misspellings or punctuation errors like that's all you need to do. No, you're saying, things you're saying are not. And I'm like, just make sure there's no misspellings or punctuation errors.

Starting point is 00:32:26 Like that's all you need to do. No, you're wrong. But, but like it was, it was almost hard to have her copy at it because, because of the informality of it. Right. And, and I think that, you know, the thing I was saying about that is you guys do such a good job. Shane Bacon is maybe the best at this is just talking about golf the way that professionally, the way that we talk about it when we're out playing, right?

Starting point is 00:32:51 And that's a little bit of what I try to do with the book. And I try to do that in my day job at CBS Sports, but it's, you know, that's a more of a formal place. This is like, hey, let's actually write and talk the way that people do. Like when you're texting about Rory, you don't say Rory, Mackle Roy, right? Yeah. And so why would, why would you put that in, in the book? So anyway, that was, that was just part of like, we say our conquering hero. And so we'll get to that. That was just

Starting point is 00:33:20 part of kind of the, I don't know, that's behind the scenes, but hopefully it's interesting. A couple other things. Scotty Schuffler got a nine foot mural from a sparkling water company. That was absurd. Okay, so the first live event at Centurion in London. This is a directly written on, this is from the Associated Press,

Starting point is 00:33:44 unironically written. I'm gonna read it, it's in the book. The band dressed as imitation infantryman was there to proclaim the arrival of Dustin Johnson and Phil McClos, two of the stars enticed from the PGA tour to potentially earn hundreds of millions of dollars on the live golf series. They had a band, these guys,

Starting point is 00:34:06 and I think they're bare skin caps, you know, the tall caps that, that I'm gonna offend so many people here, but the tall caps that British infantrymen and women wear, they were on the, and there was like, they were playing trumpets on the first tee at Centurion at this live event. And it was like, yeah, sure, like, why not?

Starting point is 00:34:33 Took London cabs out to the first hole for Shotgun Start, got a little turd a bit, it's brand new. And that was how live started. And it was just, I don't know, just stuff like that was absurd. 265 year olds played in different PGA tour events this year? J-Hos was one of them.

Starting point is 00:34:51 Peter Jacobson. Peter Jacobson, that's right. He played in the pebble. And J-Hos played in Zurich. Which a weird part of this year that I've actually enjoyed is, I enjoyed it's not the right word, but happy to get on display is some major flaws

Starting point is 00:35:11 in the PGA Tour structure. When put up against live is like, dude, this is absurd. What's going on here, guys? You can't fill out your fields. The path to making to the PGA Tour is too convoluted, too difficult. There's no shared point system between cornfaring PGA Tour.

Starting point is 00:35:27 You know, it just once with a bunch of guys left to like truly having trouble filling out your fields and having just so many hangarons in PGA Tour fields has been something that's just like put on display this year. It's bot light shown to like, you know, not to veer into Phil was right as much as it is like live forcing change for good is a huge takeaway to have it from all of this. We'll get to the Phil was right stuff. I've got some takes on that. So my copy editor, your Hannah, this was one of her notes. I'm reading this directly off. We use Google docs to put the put the boat together. She said, so I

Starting point is 00:36:03 called the nibblux, the nibbies. I don't know why. It's like, exactly how I call it in the Pelicans, the Pelis. I just call them the nibbies. She said, I have Googled nibbies, comma, golf, several times. And I just want to flag it in case it's a typo because I can find nothing. want to flag it in case it's a typo because I can find nothing. Edit, update. Now I see it in the next paragraph, so I know it's not a typo. The nibbies. But imagine like no one follows this stuff closer than we do.

Starting point is 00:36:38 And imagine like having a conversation about the nibbies at this time last year. We didn't apply on this same topic last year. This did not exist. And it is kind of like, when you're following it that much in the details and you just read some of this stuff back and you look back at like,

Starting point is 00:36:54 yeah, the clip art logos is something that we, it's just now normal, like the torque and the fireballs logos are normal. We had some fun with the fireballs logo. Our illustrator Jason Page, who's really the star of this book, his illustrations and his work are incredible. And he enjoyed the fireballs logo quite a bit.

Starting point is 00:37:16 We did some interesting things with it. Let's see here. At one point, at Phoenix, there were 23 people on or within a driver's length of the 16th green. Whenever they threw the cups in the beer on there and they had to clean it up. Like there were 23 people on the green at the same time. I was gonna say throwing alcohol and cups onto a playing surface, that actually happens in other sports. Yes.

Starting point is 00:37:39 It is not unique to golf. Yes. For what? Yes. hockey. Yeah. Throwing archipists is octopi on the ice is a normal sport thing. The thing is, riding about hockey.

Starting point is 00:37:49 Use golf facts, everything that they, he, she, whatever did, went after shot length this year. Do you remember that? For sure. Just destroyed shot length. It's not real. It's, it's's it's being manipulated. And even stuff like, you know, again, this is this is where you try to contextualize what's

Starting point is 00:38:13 actually happening Monday morning of the Masters. Augusta National sends out a press release. You get it in your inbox. Okay, this is super serious. It's got the Augusta National Golf Club header logo. They're announcing the links that they cut the grass. That morning. And you know, I was like, this is absurd. But like when you're in it and you're covering it and you're reading about it. It just is like, oh yeah, it's a quarter inch this way and two inches over here. But when you go back and look at it, you're like, that's an absurd email to get on a Monday morning. Right.

Starting point is 00:38:58 Imagine waking up and be like, I can't write my story. I don't know what the length of the grass is out there. You know how much, and no one ever puts that into any context of any kind. It's not like if you told me the fairways are cut at five, eights of it in should. Okay. Is that tight? Is that long? I don't know the answer to that. Speaking of a guest to Scotty Schuffler on 18, I actually missed this. You, I think you caught it.

Starting point is 00:39:24 I was out on the course. This was Saturday afternoon, third round. He pulls it left off the T on 18. He hits it into the trees. And he said, he has to an official, isn't a pine straw, isn't pine straw a type of leaf. So that he could get, I don't even know what the, I don't even, I'm not loose impediment, I think. So he was trying to figure out if he can remove something.

Starting point is 00:39:50 And you know, it's, I don't know, there's something like it's pine straw enough you can. He's like, is it pine straw leaf? The Canadian open hung a bar over their 18th green, like a 20 person, like on a crane. And that was actually a normal thing because that was I think one of the live weeks that was the live London. Yeah. And so the bar being suspended over the 18th green. That's how they fought back.

Starting point is 00:40:16 It seemed, yeah, it seemed actually normal. Greg Norman tried to play in the open. That was crazy. Spees trying to eat ice cream at the open. Just trying to house ice cream. I appreciate the comment of wondering why this is such a thing on 55 degree days in Scotland that people eat so much ice cream there.

Starting point is 00:40:37 There was a political convention essentially at Bedmenster. That was bizarre. That is the moment that I pause on of, you know, I don't think a lot of people that challenge us on the live stuff are doing it in a, you know, it's pretty disingenuous the way it's done. It's like, how do you not look at that and understand why people that like really love golf

Starting point is 00:41:03 don't want golf to be a political route. How do you not, regardless of who the politician is and regardless of anything that's happened in the world in the last five, six years, how can you want it to be that? How can you want any political side? How can you want golf to be that? That's where it's like,

Starting point is 00:41:20 dude, look at what's going on here. When you talk about the people that pop back on live, right? What is your opinion of who are these people? Right? Because we get tweets and DMs and emails from people, quote, unquote, all the time, you and I, and other people that are in this world. And it's like, are they being paid, or are they like, why are you waking up and writing for,

Starting point is 00:41:51 not just live, but any lead? Yeah, here's what I think. It is a combination of these things. One, there are bots that are doing this, 100%. What do you mean by bot? But it is like a bot farm. It is managed by someone in relation to the league that has a count setup that are out there,

Starting point is 00:42:08 put it spewing live propaganda. They're being controlled by humans, right? Yes. Yeah, I don't think it's like, it's literally out of the Saudi playbook. If you watch the film The Disney, The Disney, it tells you about how they use an army of like these bot farms, these, you know,

Starting point is 00:42:24 not real, they're real people, but they're representing not real people to harass and people that are dissidents against the Saudi government and it's a very real thing. So it is in their playbook, it's not outrageous to assume that and accounts literally pop up in June 2022 and just start only tweeting about live. It's like I'm not gonna pretend this is real. But I also think there's people out there

Starting point is 00:42:46 that are opportunists to one, enjoy, like a simple decision made of like, all these guys are annoying me, and I'm intrigued by this live thing. I'm gonna fight back on it, and then like you've decided at that point, like you see where you get a reaction out of someone, and you start getting maybe a following of, you know, you just a little attention on it and you see an opportunity of like no one's

Starting point is 00:43:09 really covering this in a I don't even want to say authentic way it's like there aren't media people out there that are fans of live golf I'm gonna be that now I'm gonna be the attempt I'm gonna get attention on me because I'm gonna support support everything Liv does. And it's like, if you're totally convinced by everything they did this year, like we know you're faking it. Like, they did not produce an entertaining and interesting product. They did some interesting things, but this is not the final product of the league. If in year five there are genuine fans of this thing, I will believe and understand that. If what you saw this year is what you think is like it for golf and what you love about

Starting point is 00:43:47 golf, I just don't believe you. Like I'm sorry, it was not good. It's not a good competition. It has diminished golf competition. There is, again, entertaining aspects of it, but I just can't imagine, I don't know how to say it. I don't think people are being genuine when they say that they actually have enjoyed this.

Starting point is 00:44:08 I think they see an opportunity to one, just kind of be part of the discourse and get a reaction out of people and to create a media personality around supporting live golf, that's out there. Live's gonna help promote you if you go to the events and ask dumb silly questions and if you post Instagrams and reels and all this stuff about what's going out there. Liv's going to help promote you if you go to the events and ask dumb silly questions. If you post Instagrams and reels and all this stuff about what's going out there and

Starting point is 00:44:29 you helped to, Joe Beale wrote about this in the book as well about some journalists are there asking very serious questions to the live players and they're followed up by these jokesters that are in there to create their memes and everything and it distracts from the actual conversation around it, which is the exact goal of the whole league. It's very complicated, but I just, I find it, I find it a struggle to fathom who the real people are that are, that love watching golf and of hate watch the PGA tour for this long and can hate it that much. And now all of a sudden in love with what live is doing, like, come on.

Starting point is 00:45:02 Yeah. all of a sudden in love with what Liv is doing, like, come on. Yeah, I think, well, and the close association with that is like these people that are writing for Cam Smith, like, he's by far the best player in the world. It's like, bro, you didn't even know who Cam Smith was a year ago. Like, you didn't. I'm sorry. Cam Smith is great. He's fun to watch. He's super entertaining.

Starting point is 00:45:22 He's been a good player for a long time. You had no idea who he was a year ago. That's right. There was an allegion of Cable Smith fans when he was the 30th ranked player. That has really irked me. And it's like this. It's also an anti-rory thing, which is... Here we go. Yeah. Again, you and I, not the... Leave Rory alone. Not the place for objective Rory content, but so I think you're right about to live,

Starting point is 00:45:48 bot thing, the dissident is, they're not all bots, but it helps fuel. Yes. When you see some common like thoughts out there, whether it comes from a real person or not, it is like a way of controlling, it's like a propaganda machine, it's a way of mind controlling.

Starting point is 00:46:02 Like if I, I know if I'm visiting certain websites over a long period of time I know that something is working in a way against me, right? If I'm on Reddit I am gonna be more left influenced like it reddit's just more left-leaning if I'm on Fox news My mind is gonna start working in a different way Fox news plays in the gym when I go they put CNN and Fox news up on two different It's weird because Fox is on the left and CNN's go. They put CNN and Fox News up on two different screens. It's weird, because Fox is on the left and CNN's on the right. And it always cracks me up.

Starting point is 00:46:28 But I see them covering the same different topics. And I see the different headlines they use at the bottom to mind control you, right? To put this thought in your head. And it works on people. It 100% works on people. It works on me and I'm aware of all of them. So that's why I think there's this underlying thing of,

Starting point is 00:46:47 if you flood the zone with so much crap, that eventually, like, people just start not understanding what the truth is, not caring to find the bottom of the truth. They just want to start aligning with things that make them feel good about a certain thing, or make them want to hate a certain thing. And it's a weird political thing that, again, where I just hate where golf is headed in that regard. Totally. And I think that I agree with you about the

Starting point is 00:47:09 bot thing. I think we do it a disservice to say bots sometimes because I think like sometimes you'll pop back and say, oh, you're, you're just a bot to this, this person controlling the social media account. And they'll say, no, I'm not, which I think sometimes we're using like people are using the definition of like a computer generated response or whatever. the social media account and they'll say, no, I'm not, which I think sometimes we're using, like people are using the definition of like a computer-generated response or whatever. And it's almost like we need a different word for what's happening there, you know?

Starting point is 00:47:34 Yeah, I know what you mean. And I'm not saying that. No, no, you're not specifically with you talking about it, but like, because I agree, like I'll start saying, oh, there's just a bunch of bots. And it's like, well, is that even, am I even like saying that correctly? You know, I'll start saying, oh, there's just a bunch of bots. And it's like, well, is that even, am I even like saying that correctly? You know, because it's, it's actually, again,

Starting point is 00:47:48 the dissident is an unbelievable film. I mean, it's very eye-opening into the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia and how they try to control the message online and succeed in a lot of ways. And I have no doubt that that, and I wrote about this in the book is part of what's happening here. With Liv, I think the irony of the whole thing, with all the live stuff,

Starting point is 00:48:11 is that in a lot of ways, you probably more so than me, but a lot of us in golf, Twitter, and golf media have been saying like, man, I'd love to see some change, some disruption. And so all these people are like, man, I'd love to see some change, some disruption. Right? And so all these people are like, oh, you just, you're just writing for this institution that's been around forever. It's like, go back and listen to the last five years of stuff.

Starting point is 00:48:34 Yes. That is not, I'm not the PGA jurors fine. There's some great stuff about it. There's some a lot of stuff that could be improved. I talk about that in the book. It's just the way that live on about it was the worst way. And that gets to the fill thing, right? Of like congrats.

Starting point is 00:48:52 Like you won the battle and you got paid and you lost the war, right? Like you screwed up like the entire sport because you wanted a little bit of disruption, you know? And it just, I think when people say, hey, you guys just ride for the PGA tour, it's like, I'm gonna cover golf in whatever form it's in. I just want it to be in a form.

Starting point is 00:49:19 I will ride for the way the PGA tour has compensated and arranged a set of golf tournaments for the players. Like, that is not the issue I have with the PGA tour. The issues I have had have been on the entertainment factor, how golf fans experience it, right? The PGA tour is set up very well for some of the paparrez, who, as noted in the book, has one top ten in a major, one top ten in a WGC and has earned this but has made $28 million on the PGA tour. Like I think that is well set up for him.

Starting point is 00:49:50 And sure, you're gonna have little, you know, individual things that are wrong with it or things beefs you have or whatever, but overall can we agree this is good for you? Like value has been created out of your skill to play golf that did not exist outside of the PGA tour. The funds that have come, the people that have worked hard to raise a ton of money from sponsorships, how like that's just such an uncovered part of the business in terms of

Starting point is 00:50:13 like there's one tour out there that has been able to have almost $500 million of real money, not some Saudi princess money earned and given out to players as a part of their organizing golf talent. The DP World Tour has not ever been able to do that. Australia Tour has not been able to do that. Asia Tour has not ever been able to do that. Cornfairy. Suncha, all these tours are out there and there's one.

Starting point is 00:50:35 It's heavily influenced by Tiger and how many corporations exist in the United States and whatever, all of that. But that is where the value is created there. And these guys get compensated really well for it. And to see the tour, the guys, I guess that's where I end up writing for the tour in some way is like, they do provide the best competition currently as it stands, not that it can't be improved. And they also short on the entertainment aspect of it that I would have been okay with a disruption of some kind.

Starting point is 00:51:06 I was very intrigued by the DGL. I like it. It makes a ton of sense and a lot of what makes live work, I think could have really worked if you had the top 48 guys in this subset. Now, where I end up kind of just defending the tour in a lot of ways is just like, again, you're up against a completely irrational

Starting point is 00:51:25 actor. It is really tough to go up against. Some of it doesn't have to play by any rules. And you have to work in this ecosystem that is a nonprofit and find a way to put up all these terms. Keep your top stars happy. Keep the 100th man happy. Keep the 200th man happy. Keep your sponsors happy. Keep your tournament directors happy. You know, keep the 200 man happy, keep your sponsors happy, keep your turn of a director's happy, you know, satisfy the charities, all that, all that stuff is to say like, they do a good job of all of that stuff, right? Do they come woefully short of like, you know, you know, entertaining us at home, yes, I think they do, but that's where I end up writing for them is like, dude, that's not the pretend like these guys aren't extremely good.

Starting point is 00:52:01 Like, you have a part in the book, I forget who the quote is from about, you know, I thought that they were terrible at it and then I spent two and a half years on the board and it's like these guys are doing an incredible job of raising money for us. Yeah, that was Keith Mitchell talking about somebody who was on the board. I think his near maybe. Okay, I don't know who the person was. Final break here to check in with our friends at Roeback. You've heard us say so many great things about the performance polos, the performance Q-Zips. They're a game changer. They're awesome to wear in the fall and both the mornings and the evenings. You can wear them out to restaurants. You can wear them on planes. You can wear them on the golf course. They just are a true lifestyle and golf wear, which is some of my favorite

Starting point is 00:52:37 attire in the game, the hoodies. There's a reason we can't keep these on our shelves. There's a reason why you see these pretty much everywhere you go. They're gaining traction big time. They're soft. They're stretchy. They're just durable. They don't start smelling after a couple of wears. I get away with wearing these things multiple times to the point where I need to kind of start sketching out and scheduling out when I'm actually wearing them. So I'm not wearing them every single day. But also got to talk about the joggers. They've got great new joggers. They got awesome shorts that kind of double as athletic wear, yet formal enough that it doesn't look like joggers. They got awesome shorts that kind of double as athletic wear, yet formal enough that it doesn't look like athletic wear.

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Starting point is 00:53:25 20% of polos, quesips, hoodies, vests, joggers, shorts, you name it. They got everything you could possibly want. roback.com code NLU. Let's get back to Kyle Porter. You know, I think the other thing is the people who say, Oh, the novelies need to be broken up. And it's like, you might not admit it. You might not realize it. You want a monopoly in sports. You don't want four NFLs. Yeah. Right., you might not admit it. You might not realize it. You want a monopoly in sports. You don't want four NFLs. Yeah. Right. I compared in the book. I said, imagine Kevin Durant leaving the NBA to start a new basketball league funded by the Venezuelan government. This was when they had the match between Josh Allen and Pat Mooms. And I said, in the following day, there was a televised horse game between speed JT home I can't wait.

Starting point is 00:54:06 Which also, I think I've put this in there. Can you imagine the shots speed would try in a horse game? I mean, he would be out of control. But like the monopoly thing, like you want a hierarchy in, especially your individual sports, right? And this goes back to, there's so few people that, I think football is bulletproof in this, but there's so few people that pay attention to the NBA regular season, the MLB regular season, right?

Starting point is 00:54:39 So think about how many fewer there are that pay attention to the golf regular season, the non-majors. I mean, it feels like it's tiny. And so if you're breaking that up and saying, like, well, you got to pay attention over here, but also over here, but also over there, it just is not, it's going to in the long term. And I think this is where guys are confused. And I understand what they're doing in the short term, but in the long term, it's going to reduce your revenue. Right because if it's not consolidated, then you're just not going to be able to generate the type of revenue that you've been able to generate again largely because of Tiger.

Starting point is 00:55:15 And in the long term, you're kind of shooting yourself in the foot. When especially if live ends up getting sponsors, like companies that want to spend money with that, like if now there's a decision to be made on, do I spend money, but liver? Do I spend money with PGA tour? Like, there's going to be a hit in some way of fundraising on the PGA tour and finding sponsors to pay these outsized purses now. Like it's, it's, but I mean, they have that 800 million to draw from. That's, I forgot about that.

Starting point is 00:55:40 So, and the NFTs, once they cash in the NFTs at 20 billion. Twenty billion in NFTs. Jason Page made like a NFTs are not physical, but he made physical looking NFTs for the, for one of the pages. So that was, that was pretty good. But that's where, again, I can't, I almost feel like I can't over explain. I struggle to explain why, I guess it's kind of the way that people view the world, right? It is so one thing or the other in terms of there can't be any grave. Like you hated on the tour forever. Why all of a sudden are you riding for them? It's like, if you can't see that I think that this is the best chance for entertainment

Starting point is 00:56:19 and opportunity for the best competition, then we're just not going to see eye to eye on this. I can also think they fall woefully short on something yet. Same time, be rooting for them to get this figured out and retain the talent. I think our best chance at watching good entertaining competitive golf is they're them retaining mainly the guys that were in the meeting room in Delaware, retaining that and putting up great golf competitions. I think there's still major flaws in how they present it and they've got evolve on that

Starting point is 00:56:43 front. But I guess I'm just extremely confident in following my gut in terms of, you know, I don't know. It's so weird to have gone through this thing where people think we've sold out to the PGA tour when people stop listening to us because we were too hard on the PGA tour at one point. So I don't know. It's just very been a very weird year in that regard. And like, yeah, are we like did the PGA tour commit antitrust violations? by all accounts so far? Probably yes.

Starting point is 00:57:08 Like, that's probably going to be an issue for them. I don't know what that looks like. Am I rooting for them to, you know, win that lawsuit or win that case? Because I think it's a better chance of retaining the talent and keeping competitive golf a lot. Yeah, I am. I don't, don't really care about the law in that regard.

Starting point is 00:57:22 Like, give me entertaining golf. Like, yeah, you know what I mean? Like, I don't, I about the law in that regard. Like, give me entertaining golf. Like, you know what I mean? Like, I never got into golf because I was like, oh, I hope everything's really above board here. I hope the lawyer's really figured this out. This is like the antifowdo tweet this year that said, you know what, I'm sick of golf. I'm gonna go back to a sport that doesn't have real

Starting point is 00:57:45 I'm in issues is completely above. It's awesome. It's awesome. Like college football. But I think, you know, to get back to the year, I think what live unintentionally did was elevate the value and the importance of the major championships. Right.

Starting point is 00:58:08 And maybe it was because they were at great venues this year. I mean, four just tremendous. What was the worst venue? Southern Hills? Probably. Which is crazy. And, you know, I made the case going into it that the open, that the St. Andrew was was the most consequential major of the last 20 years and you know If we were to want it would have been but

Starting point is 00:58:34 But unfortunately He did not now it it did and it was already I think training in that direction golf broadly It just made those four weeks feel even more important It did, and it was already, I think, trending in that direction, golf broadly. It just made those four weeks feel even more important than they already did, and they already felt important. I mean, I think back to the US Open, and that was the most contentious week of the entire year. I think it was a wild week.

Starting point is 00:58:59 I mean, Phil starts out with just that hangdog press conference that he gave, which was just so bizarre. Brooks is cursing at people in the meat. I mean, it was just you guys are putting a black cloud over this US open. Yeah. A black cloud. We have an illustration in the book that's a black cloud over Brooks's putter, which

Starting point is 00:59:18 says like instead of title as cash grab on there, which is hilarious. But Rory and JT and ROM were kind of, you know, fired up that week. It was, that was a really contentious week and it made it feel, and it made all the major weeks feel just even more important, which I thought was kind of an unintended benefit of all this because they are the most important. So I don't know, it just, that was one takeaway in the book from the year is how much more important those weeks felt. It also, I believe this was mentioned

Starting point is 00:59:52 in the book too, of realization. At least, I never really thought of it this way. And this year has changed the way we think about pretty much everything. But the realization that a lot of how much power the players have, the players finally realizing how much power they have. And issues they have with the tour are their own problems to solve, right? And that's the way their policy board slash pack, however it's worked, is not efficient enough at addressing, you know, an overall strategy.

Starting point is 01:00:23 It's where everyone can get their grievances in about little things. Yet it's not, again, until those guys got in the same room to come up with, like, let's restructure how we gonna do, let's go. The tour is not gonna come up with it. So Keith Mitchell's point of, like, if Jay-Monhan came to John Romance and said you have to play these 17 events,

Starting point is 01:00:40 like this is what we came up with. That's not gonna go over well, but if we can get everyone to agree as a group, like this is what we have to do is what we should do and here's why, and then take that to the tour. That was the only way this was ever going to work. And that's where coming back to Phil was right. It was like, dude, if you tried that, if you tried to get everyone on the same page, if you came up with a plan, instead of drafting up the foundation, the bylaws of in a rival league, do you know how far, how big those differences are between trying to solve Rafting up the foundation, the bylaws of an arrival league. Do you know how far, how big those differences are

Starting point is 01:01:07 between trying to solve the problems at home versus drafting up language for a rival league? Having your own lawyers do that. If he to tried the other thing, I would have been supportive and like Phil was right. He tried to make these changes. It was never gonna happen. He needed to leave.

Starting point is 01:01:22 And like look at Tiger and Rory's initiative to address the issues at home instead of like running off to take a very selfish cash card. But I think Phil would say that he did try to do that. He would say that over the last 20 years by calling Monahan himself and like telling him what's wrong with things instead of like serving in a leadership position. And also like when you when you're yelling about NFTs being worth 20 billion and all these other things, everything else goes out the window. It's sorted, negates what you're actually trying to get done.

Starting point is 01:01:49 It's all Googleable. For sure. I mean, again, like a six-time major winner tweeting 990s at me during the middle of a press conference, during the middle of an event sponsored by an Indian motorbike company. Like what the hell? Like how did how do we end up here? We got to call this out. You know Phil was watching the press conference obviously because he's following on Twitter as it's going on and you know he is

Starting point is 01:02:18 puppeting Mark Canisero of the New York Post who asks Tiger the question of do you think Phil is owed an apology after all of this? So it's very much, I pick, absolutely not. A picture, Kedazaro, texting Phil, like, I don't know what this, do you want me to ask him again?

Starting point is 01:02:33 Like, how do I, how do I get this, he didn't apologize, how do we get him to apologize Phil? And so you tweeting that out and that he's replying with a 2018, 1990 filing that doesn't reconcile I went and looked it up like I can't even figure out where the numbers are coming from He also doesn't seem to understand how player retires he feel wants an early cash out of his retirement is what he wants

Starting point is 01:02:55 Of all this like he all these assets he thinks the tour has it's like the PJ tour Retirement fund that is wildly lauded as you know widely lauded as the best in sports and something he's known as been as an inexistence since he joined in the 90s like this has not changed but that's the liability right is the is the retirement and he's just he's just willfully ignoring that or not so Phil has decided that he is going to win over the I don't want to say the simple minds just the people that aren't willing to think critically at all He's long decided. I'm not gonna try like the media is as is on to this They're gonna figure this stuff out really quickly. I'm gonna try to win the popular like the populous vote here

Starting point is 01:03:35 Of people that aren't willing to think about this. I'm gonna just will these things into existence again My control just throwing out random numbers and then people go around and start talking about it. I listened back to one of our old pods and like without before we had looked into it, we had I had paraded the the 26% the players get 20s 6% I had said that and I was like, yeah, I had quoted fill on that and I didn't push back on that because I hadn't looked into it yet. And that is how he's hoping to win this whatever race. But again, what's the point, dude? You got your money. What do you still hope to accomplish here? Why are you cooperating with the antitrust investigation against the PGA tour?

Starting point is 01:04:12 What do you stand to gain from this other than to just want to watch the world burn? Yeah, I think it wasn't a great year for Phil. I mean, especially like imagine telling yourself the week before the the Kioa PGA 2021. What was before that week? Byron Nelson? K.A. Gley? Yeah. When's the Byron Nelson? You said yourself that was the squeegee week. They're squeegee in the greens on that Sunday when K is doing might have been, well, it might have been one of your first normal sports. Tell yourself, Hey, Phil's going to win next week. But then the the next year's PGA, he's going to have done something way crazier, which is miss the PGA because he's involved in a,

Starting point is 01:05:05 you know, Ponzi scheme basically. What? I don't know. Ponzi's keep it thrown out way too much. Yeah, that's kind of a, that's just a moniker for like, you don't know where money's coming from. Which is essentially what's going on. But he's gonna, he's gonna be involved in something

Starting point is 01:05:25 way crazier the following year. And he just- The high flyers. He's gonna be on the high flyers. The names have all, they're almost so bad, they're good. The only defense I'll give live on this is how silly does the name commanders sound right now for the Washington football team, just because it's new.

Starting point is 01:05:44 Totally. If you came up with the Patriots now, it would be like, name commanders sound right now for the Washington football team just because it's new. Right. You came up with the patriots now. Yeah, it would be like, what look at this team day, but it's I've cracked the crack and yeah, exactly. Over the years, the Golden Knights just becomes part of parlor. Yeah, it takes under the Oklahoma City Thunder. That's the dumbest thing I've ever heard. Say it ironically, very normal.

Starting point is 01:06:02 Pelicans are still dumb, the Pellies. The Nibbies. Please keep the Nibbies. So yeah, it wasn't a great year for Phil. And I think that, yeah, he was, I saw this on Forbes somewhere on Instagram, that he was the highest paid athlete in sports this year. Congratulations. It's wild.

Starting point is 01:06:21 I mean, it just is like, and I wrote about this in the book. I had this actually serious section about money and about how I don't I don't really understand why as a society sometimes we act like money should be our governing like our North Star like I'm gonna like you okay, so the example I gave was if golf channel or I don't I forgot what company I use said we'll triple your salary but you have to move and you can't do the things you love like cover the writer cup and cover the majors anymore. Would I take that? Because that was that's what

Starting point is 01:07:03 people on Twitter like you take a hundred million that was, that's what people on Twitter are like, oh, you'd take $100 million, too. And it's like, like, I'm not, I'm not governed only by money. Like there are other things in the decision making matrix that I take into account. I love where I live. I love the friends that I have. I love the people in the community that I live around. I love the church that I go to.

Starting point is 01:07:24 My kids are thriving. My wife loves our neighborhood. Like those are all, but yet people act like, well, if we doubled what we were gonna give you, then that'll make up for all that. That'll change everything. And it's like, what a soulless way to live your life. And I'm not saying that specifically about Phil, but it's almost

Starting point is 01:07:45 like the people who were evaluating it. Like that was their stance on it. Like, well, if you were given this, then you would make up for all that other stuff. And it's like, who, how? There was a great, like, kind of cheesy, but inspirational, real or Instagram or something Facebook video that was going around for a while that was like somebody talking about the value of money. And it's like, we owe value money, right? For sure, we do ads that make us money. You work for money, you're selling this book for money.

Starting point is 01:08:12 Like, money matters. Let's not pretend like it doesn't. You're not. I'm just saying, let's address that. But, you know, how much, even if you think in your life, you value money more than anything, you probably don't. Like, the take was basically like,

Starting point is 01:08:27 if I offered you a million dollars right now, but you're gonna lose a leg tomorrow, what would your answer be? No chance. And it's like, okay, so you value your health more than money. And if I'm gonna give you, I'll give you 10 million dollars tomorrow,

Starting point is 01:08:40 but your wife, your mom, your dad, whatever it's gonna be, is gonna die tomorrow. No chance. You value your family more than money. whatever it's going to be, is going to die tomorrow. No chance. You value your family more than money. And it's just kind of unit through that way. It was just like, I don't know, the money is going to fit into everyone's lives in some way at some point, in some capacity. Like, the point is not to pretend like it doesn't. It's just that it doesn't rule everything for everyone. For some people, it is the endless pursuit of money that they're into. For the life of me, some of these multi-billionaires

Starting point is 01:09:07 that still work 20 hours a day, I don't understand that. If I had more money than I could count, I wouldn't spend my time working. I would wanna go enjoy things in life and would stop pursuing more money. But for some people, there's money, just you can't get enough of it. You can't, even if you have a ton, the idea of like, I can't turn can't get enough of it. You can't you can't even if you have a ton the idea of like

Starting point is 01:09:25 I can't turn down an offer for a hundred basically I'm paying a hundred million dollars to not play live if I don't take this money The way their minds work is like how do you turn that down? How do you and you in the way whether you're intentional or not? You sacrifice a lot like I would struggle with if I sold out Struggling see if I said if I was you know had a twenty million dollar house that I was sitting in I would struggle with enjoying that if I sold out, struggling, if I said, if I was, you know, had a $20 million house that I was sitting in, I was struggling with enjoying that if I knew that people thought less of me, right? You know, like you sacrificed your values, just to sit at home.

Starting point is 01:09:56 I think about that with that Graham McDowell, it's like he really enjoyed being liked and being interviewed and he was a great personality. I think for the first time in his career, he felt pushback on that this year. And the exchange for that was for money. And maybe he thinks it's worth it. I don't know, but I wonder how well that sits with someone like him. We had that quote in the, uh, I don't know, Irish independent or somebody.

Starting point is 01:10:19 He said, is it, he said something like it's, it's harder to look in the mirror in the morning. Yeah. And you're like, is that, is that what's that worth? And JT and Roy talked about that throughout the year. I thought JT was pretty good on some of this stuff. He talked about, if you don't love your job, then there's not an amount of money that is going to make up for that. And these are guys that are like, oh, I don't know if JT is wealthy.

Starting point is 01:10:44 Roy is wealthy. JT is wealthy, Roy is wealthy, and JT is rich, right? These are guys that have like lived that life. And, and, you know, I can't, Roy talked about it at one point. I can't remember specifically, was it at travelers that he talked about the money stuff? I don't know. I can't remember, but he's like, listen, like, I live in the house.

Starting point is 01:11:08 I still use three bedrooms. I still use the same boardrooms in my house. Yeah, that quote. And you're like, in people's response is like, well, yeah, he's got all the money. And it's like, well, actually, that's why he's qualified to like speak with authority on this. It's because he, it's the Jim Carey Quotive. I wish everybody could become famous so that they realize how unfulfilling it actually is. Right, that's essentially what Rory was saying with that quote.

Starting point is 01:11:35 He's the one that has lived that life, you know? And that's where I'm at with like, these are already rich athletes getting richer, right? And like where the Yuhaneio Chicara stuff comes in, it's kind of like, do you like that makes sense to me? Like, yeah. You were gonna get a bunch of money and don't necessarily have to prove yourself

Starting point is 01:11:51 playing golf, whereas it's really hard to get it the other way. That makes sense to me, whereas some of these dudes that have made a ton of money, I guess I relate this to like, I go almost annually to JT's house to do a podcast every year. And I went there in 2018,

Starting point is 01:12:04 and I went there in, I didn't go every year. And I went there in 2018, and I went there in, I didn't go this year, but I went there in 2021. And I think, you know, he's made, I don't know how much money he's made in between that time period, right? And the house looks the exact same. It's a nice house, it is not like outrageous, right? It is not someone that, like if you've seen Pat Perez's house

Starting point is 01:12:19 on Instagram, that place is outrageous, outrageous, okay? And you could, could yeah the things he's spending money on that's it's a part topic but watching I guess I kind of viewed it through that lens of like like that's a guy whose the amount of money is just not gonna change why he plays golf like he is truly into like he has sponsors he is interested in money he goes to functions for money like he he he understands that there's it's gonna play a role You try about JT Yeah, but like it doesn't Define like what he wants out of golf and if they offered him 500 million or a billion to do it like it just wouldn't change like

Starting point is 01:12:56 What he you know wants out of it because he probably has more money than he's gonna spend well I go back to he had a quote during one of those sit downs with him. I think it was, when did he won the Quahalo 2017? Yeah. I think it was in 2018, maybe. And you said, like, maybe you've made a lot of money, like, what's what's changed? And he was like, you know, I don't really have a ton of time to spend it. Yeah. He's like, sometimes I get a nicer bottle of wine when we go out to dinner and you're like,

Starting point is 01:13:27 it's the Warren Buffet thing. You can only wear one tie at a time. You know, like that's his quote on money. And so I just, I don't know, like this whole year was so much about, I mean, honestly, like the normal sport version of this is like a bunch of us in the media were yelling about how much multi-million yelling about how much more money multi-millionaires were making all year and so it's kind of like this is dumb to begin with. But it was also, and this is where I kind of landed on leave.

Starting point is 01:13:54 It became like a, almost a prism through which you view the world. Right, it was this intersection of culture and politics and money. It wasn't about golf at all. And I don't mean that in the sports washing sense. I mean, in like the reason that you and I run to talk about live immediately after we start this podcast is because it's this intersection of things that everybody cares about, including us. And there's some morality in there. There's a bunch of different things wrapped up in it. And it made, it was tiring. It was exhausting, like to talk about it all the time.

Starting point is 01:14:34 But it was also really interesting because it both shaped how you view the world. And it also informed others about how you view the world. You know who the guy real quick, that I struggled the most with this year, with Liv? Charles Howe. Yeah. I just, I just, he didn't, I didn't get it. I don't understand. And he and I, and I'm curious about your tech.

Starting point is 01:14:57 I know you talked to him or whatever. He and I texted about it some. He wanted to kind of chat in person. I don't know. Like I just, I really struggled with that because a lot of these guys, a lot of this is like, it's oversimplifying it to say it's the good guys in the bag guys, but it's not oversimplifying it by a ton.

Starting point is 01:15:14 Right. Like when you, like at the end of the day, are you gonna, you wanna be in the camp of Papara as Pat Reed, DJ, Brooks, and Bryson? Yeah. Are you gonna be with Roy, Spieth, JT, Tiger? Bryson. Are you in Beardless Royce, Speed, JT, Tiger? Yeah.

Starting point is 01:15:27 Who do you wanna be with? Yeah. And I struggled with the Charles Houthi. I'm curious about your take on that. I didn't, I'm confused. This has been such a confusing year that it's easy just to not think about. I, Charles and I, we don't talk

Starting point is 01:15:41 new as much as we probably used to, but it was kind of like, yeah, I, it's again, I just, every individual has motivations for why they do it and whatnot. And I've never seen him as, he's, we often joke about how much money he's made on the PGA tour and how he's the perfect, you know, representative of any grocery store and nobody will say anything yet. He's made $40 million on tour, whatever it is. It's also just like, there is again a huge part of it that I get, Grammack Dallas quotes that's in your book

Starting point is 01:16:12 as well about like, dude, I'm tired of grinding out for 150th on the FedEx. Like I have a great opportunity to make some money late in my career that's not gonna always be there. That part makes a ton of sense to me. What I've guessed that it would be Charles, no, I wouldn't have, but like on the surface of that decision, that's so different than what came

Starting point is 01:16:28 Smith did, right? And it's like largely Charles Howe's irrelevant in golf. Like he's a great personality, great guy to talk to, but PGA Torbans will not miss him, right? And he doesn't have much responsibility. I hate to like even be that high-minded about it to uphold the professional golf infrastructure. He's not a person that's going to, his effect on it is so different

Starting point is 01:16:51 than what DJ did. I just view that decision through a different lens than I do some of the dudes that are causing a cascading effect. I asked Sandor about that, are you going to, when you're calling to his decisions about live, basically we kind of came to the conclusion like you're not going to be one of the guys that starts the cascade of the falling effect and he was kind of, I don't know if I would be one of those guys and I don't know if I actually push back, but I disagree with that. Like I think if some of the top competitive guys go, they also have the possibility of being followed into that. Whereas if the scale tips to the other side, then the competitive golf, it might be like

Starting point is 01:17:28 irresponsible to not go. If you're going to like miss out on the competitive golf landscape. And I put Charles how nowhere near that. So he doesn't have that part of element of a decision that I think would matter in. At least from where I sit, like I think Cam Smith's, again, I hate to say like responsibility for holding up competitive golf is why I had such a problem with his part of the decision. Does that make any sense?

Starting point is 01:17:51 Yeah, it does. I think the responsibility thing is hard because you said this throughout the year, I thought you were really consistent and good on it, is like in a vacuum, I understand like each individual decision. Right, like you're incentivized to take a ton of money, especially somebody like Kampsmith who two years ago he was a good player, not an elite player and in 18 months he became like an elite player, right? And so boom, it's like perfect timing for him to to be incentivized to take that money and

Starting point is 01:18:24 Like is Kamp Cam Smith thinking about sturdying the game for future generations? Probably not. Yeah. Do. And then he said, he was an unreliable expectation on a player. Maybe.

Starting point is 01:18:35 Yeah, that's where I'm like, I'm aware that this is kind of high-minded. And like, borderline, you're responsible to like, project that onto someone in an individual sport like this. But that's where I sit. It just comes down to like what I think about it. That's how I feel, right?

Starting point is 01:18:47 I think that you are owed something to the future of the game and to your fellow peers that this is costing in some way. And I just think if I was in that position, I would think my uncomfortable feeling I would have of looking other peers in the eye after it would drive my decision to say like, that's my gut telling me this is not the right thing to do. Yeah, I'm not in the situation, so I can't replicate that, but that's where I'm at on that.

Starting point is 01:19:13 Yeah, and I think that goes back to, you know, why what Tiger and Rory thought this year is so meaningful? Because really like, I mean, Tigers like the, he's the bridging the gap, right, from this generation to the next. And, you know, his takes are so funny because he almost is like, smirking at like, why would you even consider this? I mean, I don't understand. He's so principled, I've made this point before on our CBS podcast.

Starting point is 01:19:53 He's so principled in such an old school way that it's like, he almost can't even wrap his mind around the decision. Like, Rory can go back and forth and and forth, and he can like convince you about, like he can talk you into anything sort of, and Tigers' lives he can. Well, for sure, we'll get to him. I got two other things I wanna get to,

Starting point is 01:20:16 but and Tigers is so principle that he's like, well, he's a play major championship. That's all there is, you know? And I come back to why I project that a little bit on Cam Smith and people in general is guys like Rory and Tiger and JT that have taken this stand have like saved the competitive golf landscape, right? There are people that do in some way view it through that lens, right? That's kind of my point overall.

Starting point is 01:20:40 I was like, the whole thing could have come down. If a few more dominoes fall and it's still May, the whole thing could have come down if a few more dominoes fall and it's still may the whole thing could come could have come down and if they didn't get together and start like figuring out what the future of the PGA tour looks like other options would have looked really appealing. What do you think do you think how how bad do you think you would be let's say everybody goes to live next year. See PGA tour just disappears and everybody's alive. Rory, Tiger, Speed, everybody. How bad is that? Is that the worst thing in the world? It's not.

Starting point is 01:21:13 It's a total departure from what we know, but the whole thing, I guess my stance on this has always been because that's not gonna happen, live is a terrible thing for the golf world. They're not gonna get everyone. They're just not. I just don't know how Rory even hat in hand could go rolling back to happen, live is a terrible thing for the golf world. They're not going to get everyone. They're just not, like, I just don't know how Rory, even Hatton Hand could go rolling back to, right? I mean, if everything fell down,

Starting point is 01:21:31 I think someone's more likely to start their own tour than they are, like, go Hatton Hand. Rory's playing the sunshine too? Yeah, whatever it would be. But like, I just don't, it's an interesting question. It's a hypothetical, because I don't think it's possible for some of these guys to go do it at this point, given the stances they've taken.

Starting point is 01:21:48 But would it be the worst thing? No. I mean, I think eventually the sports washing would work on all of us and it would just become, you know, we would watch it. And I would still want to maintain like, people's awareness to a lot of the stuff that is going on. I think I would have that responsibility to the audience, yet at the same time, like, is there a chance that would be some entertaining golf?

Starting point is 01:22:07 I think so, but. I kinda saw, I saw it on the sports washing throughout the year. I said that in the book, and it's not that I don't think that, I think some of this was like, Lee Westwood and those guys, they acted like, oh, we're trying to change things for Saudi Arabia.

Starting point is 01:22:25 And it's like, yo, it's the same regime. Yeah, they're not, they acted like it was like, oh, they got a new leader and things are different. It's the same guy. Because Shogi thing happened five months before the first Saudi international. It was already being organized. Like, they're dead set on like, bad pun there. But like, they're dead set on like bad pun there,

Starting point is 01:22:45 but like they're dead set on continuing their ways while also putting up this facade. Like that's the example right there. And so I think the reason that I soften on the sports washing stuff is, do I think it's in like lives bylaws that they're gonna change the minds of the world to like love the Saudi, the kingdom of the world to

Starting point is 01:23:08 like love the Saudi, the kingdom of Saudi Arabia more through golf, not really. Do I think that it's part of the, the, the, the public investment funds goal? Maybe, yeah, probably like sort of, but they also, I think are trying to diversify their income or whatever their assets, their, they're trying to get themselves off oil. They're trying to buy culture totally.

Starting point is 01:23:30 And so I just, I don't, I think at first I started out like, hey, this is blatant, like, sports washing. And I think that is like, it's sort of baked into, like, what they do with everything. Yeah. I just don't know that it's as at the forefront as I thought it was. What I will say is that there's some guy like it's politically costly to go to live, politically costly, maybe for Grammack down most of all.

Starting point is 01:23:58 It's politically costly for all those guys. Most of those guys don't care about what it costs them politically. DJ doesn't care. Yeah. Brooks, well, Brooks probably cares more than he lets on, but doesn't care. Sergio, whatever. The thing I was thinking about, I said this in the book, what happens if Kishogi happens again?

Starting point is 01:24:16 Yeah. So you've got four years of distance that buys you a little bit of space if you're a cramic towel, if you're a DJ, if you're whoever. And you've got Yasser, who's boys with MBS, like Annie is circle, signing your checks. I don't know if he actually signs them, but effectively, what are you gonna say? What are you gonna do? How's that gonna go?

Starting point is 01:24:44 Like that's a risk that these guys don't care about it, but they should. And that's where the difference of being like a spokesman for the regime is so different than like FedEx being having Saudi investment. Yes. Like Rory or JT or whoever wins the FedEx Cup doesn't have to stand up and like

Starting point is 01:25:01 praise the Saudi government when they get checks from FedEx. And that's a public investment. That's just so far on the other end of the spectrum that it's just unnecessary noise that has clouded the morality view of this whole thing. And it's just like dude, I don't know. I don't feel overly qualified to preach

Starting point is 01:25:19 or to even opine on morality of like golf, right? I've had to like learn how to do this this year. And like I'm not an behind on morality of, I like golf, right? I've had to like learn how to do this this year and like I'm not an expert on it. I shouldn't be, like I shouldn't be shaping anyone's opinion on any of this stuff. I feel like I should make people aware of it to like make their own conclusion on it and share what I think, but like, dude, I don't know,

Starting point is 01:25:39 like do I, I don't wanna pretend like I'm the most moral person. I think I'm a pretty good person, but I don't wanna pretend like I'm the most moral person. I think I'm a pretty good person, but I don't want to pretend like I'm the most moral. I'm the moral compass of golf of Eddie Kayne, but like this year has kind of required that and it's been a challenge. Yeah. And some of that's been, some of that's been hard because you don't know, you don't know intentions and you frankly, we don't, I don't know what MBS is doing today.

Starting point is 01:26:02 You know, like, and some of that is like, it could be better than I think, worse than, I don't know. And some of the what about is in like really good points of like, yes. Why, you know, why, why have I overlooked certain things as a part of, it's a decent point. It's like, it doesn't ignore the fact that this thing

Starting point is 01:26:22 right here that we're talking about sucks. And like, part of the what about is some stuff that I don't want to address. It's like, do you realize that has nothing to do with golf? Right? That's so like we're trying to relate all this global geopolitics crap in with how it relates to golf like I'm not prepared to talk about

Starting point is 01:26:39 like who makes the I like you know, sweatshops making iPhones in China. Like do you kind of see how far away this is from? Totally. I mean the one that got the I like, you know, sweatshops making iPhones in China. Like, do you kind of see how far away this is from total? I mean, the one that got me is like, well, the US government does some bad stuff too. And you're like, well, when it's the WGC presented by the US Treasury sponsor by Alan Greenspan, sure. We'll talk about that.

Starting point is 01:26:58 Sure. But I don't want that to be a tour either. I don't want the US to buy a tour. I do. I do. When government gets involved in culture and sports, it usually doesn't hot go well. Correct.

Starting point is 01:27:10 Right. And that was a big takeaway. Do we have time for two other things? Sure, let's do it. OK, so actually three real quick. If you're listening and you want to buy the book, anormalsport.com. I didn't want to wait until the very end.

Starting point is 01:27:24 What are we like an hour and a half in? But anormalsport.com, if you use the code NLU, we're not doing any discounts this year because your boy DJ was so expensive to hire. I couldn't afford to. But if you use the code, you will be entered into a giveaway. So store credit for the NLU ProShop. So just use that code. You're automatically entered and we will give away at the December 31st. We'll give away a handful of gift cards to the NLU ProShop. By the book people, it's not being paid to say that. It's just great content. We have hard covers this year. That's what I heard. I heard that. Yeah. I'll be sending you one. Shane Bacon doing the audio. Yeah.

Starting point is 01:28:05 So we've got, we got to, we got some options this year. It's going to be a ton of fun. Revamped website. The two things I want to talk about, we can do it in any order. We haven't really had a Rory conversation. It's just wild. And then two, I'd love to talk about just a little bit

Starting point is 01:28:21 of the process of putting the book together. And DJ's involvement and just kind of how that went. So should we get Rory first? Let's do that. Okay. Where do you want to start? Where do you want to start? Uh, the open, I guess.

Starting point is 01:28:36 It, um, so let, let, let, the Rory thing is interesting. And I'm curious to talk to you about this in that. I am so, I'm just so genuinely, and this is where it borders on adulation. I don't know if I'm saying that word. Yeah, I know. But I want to explain why that is the case, right? It is, we've been fortunate enough to get to know the person, the human,

Starting point is 01:29:03 and like spend a little bit of time with them, not talking golf and things like that. And it's just like very, we're pretty decent judges of character, I think. And it's pretty clear that every interaction I have with him in some way makes me want to root for that guy. It's just like he has a way about him that if I thought it was covering up some, if I thought it was a facade, if I thought it was covering up some evil doings he was doing in the background, I would feel differently than like having genuine,

Starting point is 01:29:30 like admiration for having this guy in golf. And I don't feel bad saying that. I don't know I'm supposed to be like objective, but that is my objective opinion of everything he does off the course and the way he handles things, it just makes you want to root for the guy. And I just, somebody that devotes, whether people realize this or not, he devotes so much energy into the entertainment aspect of golf. His interview with Paul Kimmich this past week that was out in the,

Starting point is 01:29:57 I forget what paper it's for. Yeah, I don't know. It was like, he talked about all of his golf over the last like 18 months, and every part of it was interesting. He has made himself a subject of entertainment and literally maybe Tiger could do that, maybe Speed, but no one else could I read about the evolution of their game over 18 months and be hanging on every word.

Starting point is 01:30:18 That's kind of where some of the, sometimes out of control admiration and rooting for him can come from. I know, but I feel very well-footed for that kind of, again, being in golf as a golf fan, that's a dude that's easy to root for. Yeah, so a couple of things. A couple, I'm sure. It's crazy to me that he's the top 25 player ever, and he might be a better talker and doing that at the same time. Yeah. Yeah, like that seems impossible. Like Tiger, obviously the best ever. He's not a great talker. No, he's fine.

Starting point is 01:30:54 Like, and I don't mean like he can't speak. I just mean like, and Tiger even said this. He's like, listen to Rory. Well, and it's also a fair amount of like what Tiger does publicly speaking has a layer of like, all right, do that, it's kind of bullshit. Like, just like refusing, you know, like he has a way of brushing off a question, that's in the police report. Yeah, whereas like, Rory steers head on

Starting point is 01:31:20 into basically everything. And I think when you do that, you make, you expose yourself big time, right? Because in worried, he did a pretty good job of this in 2022. Think about your takes a year ago on live, my takes six months ago on live, and how bad they sound now.

Starting point is 01:31:43 Now think about him having to do that in front of a million people or whatever, and not cover your tracks, but trying to protect yourself a little bit, but also be honest, that's freaking hard. Like that's really difficult to do. One thing, I said this in the book and I've said it to you, I think before,

Starting point is 01:32:01 like I love that you guys have, that you're fanalysts in your, in your Twitter profile because I think that there's this sort of old school mentality and I understand it, but of like, oh, well, sports riders and people covering stuff, we gotta be objective. We can't, we can't root. And it's like, I don't know, man,

Starting point is 01:32:19 like I just, I like what I like, you know, and I think people gravitate towards some of that. It doesn't mean I can't say, hey, Rory sucked in the first round of the Masters or whatever. But I think people gravitate toward that because they want somebody like you who can explain what they're feeling.

Starting point is 01:32:42 I go back on this when podcasting was was just like coming out sports podcasting in general Like Bill Simmons was the only thing going on. Yeah, I had no opinions on Boston sports at all Yet I would listen to those every day and just like going through a fans journey of everything that was going on in Boston at those times Like was interesting content. Yeah way less, you know, if it was just factual, that would be, that would have been way less interesting to me. Like, there's a different, you can be subjective and fair in how things are presented. Totally. 100% and I think, I think in some ways, everybody's a little bit like our age as a derivative

Starting point is 01:33:18 of Simmons. Right. Like, just, it didn't mean we're mimicking in our copycatting, but we kind of grew up on that and I think That's sort of his legacy to all this anyway. I have always told myself and Told like my kids hey be wary of Kind of lionizing people you don't really know, You know, and I don't really know Rory.

Starting point is 01:33:46 I mean, I know him and in as much as, like we have a professional relationship and... I'm thinking back to this. I think it was a Steve A.D. S-H-L thing. I know this man. I shower with this man. I cuddle with this man.

Starting point is 01:34:02 I know him, okay? with this man. I cuddle with this man. I know him, okay? So I just, I, I, I, like nobody has tested that sort of ideal of mine more than him, more than Rory though, right? Because he's so, he's so good. He's so fun to watch, but he's also, I'm gonna, I don't know if I'm supposed to tell this story, but I'm gonna tell it anyway, which is either how you get in trouble or how it goes well. He texted me after I sent him the book, he texted me kind of going back and forth and he was like, hey, send me the number of, I won't say who, but one of your writers,

Starting point is 01:34:47 I wanted to send them a note because I know they've been kind of going through a tough time. I actually wanted to check in on them, see how they're doing, send them something encouraging or whatever. And it's like, who does that? Right. He's the number one player in the world. Right.

Starting point is 01:35:07 And so, like, and I tell that story because I think it's emblematic of what you and I have kind of experience behind the scenes a little bit. And that's why when people are like, well, why do you like Rory? And it's like, dude, like, how do you not? And again, it would, I think our radars are decent and like, if he's like trying to fool everyone, do you know how hard of work that is? Like, eventually, like, if you're faking this

Starting point is 01:35:31 in front of all of these people, eventually, that's just like actually who you are. Like, you know, it's impossible to kind of fake it to the level, basically I'm saying, like, it's not like we can't see through bullshit, right? And it's not like we can't be critical of them. Totally. At times when it happens, and I've, you know,

Starting point is 01:35:46 at times I've, I felt like I've risked our relationship with things I've said on the podcast about decisions he's made or approaches he's taken to it, but he also can handle criticism. I think, and I think he's actually, and there are, most of the top guys are like this. I think they're actually embarrassed when you don't criticize them.

Starting point is 01:36:03 Yeah. Because they're like, oh, you're not like a professional. Right. That's a good point. I think that when you're critical of them, they're like, oh, he, as long as you're not being like personal or like ridiculous. It's a reflection of their character, if you will, when you do criticize them if that maintains their character, if you will, when you do criticize them if that

Starting point is 01:36:25 maintains your relationship, right? I mean, we, I think we address the J.T. slur situation as fairly and objectively and as critically as we could have. And I told him that we had to do this. He was like, I totally understand completely. Like, it's just, it really can be that simple. Whereas some players that like, in zero late, I've had relationships with players and because, you know, we've had to say critical things about them. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's a weird spot. It is.

Starting point is 01:36:48 So in the book, I actually ended up a lot of the Rory chapters. I was like just the way it shook out. I didn't write them. Other people wrote them or I was curious about that. I was like, yeah, did you have to abstain? It wasn't purposeful. So by the end of it all, we'd written all this stuff. We'd spend, I had to recuse myself. To my hijack, we spent two months just grinding on all this content. I was like, I didn't really write about Rory in this book that much. I mentioned a couple of things. I somehow made the tiger chapter about Rory, which was absurd.

Starting point is 01:37:23 But I ended up writing an appendix, just like an essay on Rory, which was absurd. But I ended up writing an appendix, just like an essay on Rory, which you probably haven't gotten to yet. That's the very last one. There's a footnote in there that says, if you thought I was gonna, I was gonna publish a 400 page book and not write an essay about Rory, you would be wrong.

Starting point is 01:37:42 So the word that I used for Rory's entire 2022 was grace. So this idea of grace, I think grace is such an interesting work because I have so many different definitions. I kind of compared him physically to to Federer. When I talked to him in July, I'm so glad you didn't say Jesus, I thought you were going to say. When I talked to him in July, he started to say like, he said something like, in my head, I'm more an adult and fatter. And in my head, I was like, what are you talking about? And then he eventually said, but I just don't have an adult grit and will and toughness and all those things. And I've always thought he, like, Rory was fatter, just from the way he, like his move at the ball is very graceful, the way he plays,

Starting point is 01:38:30 I think is very graceful. It's very fun and compelling and in throwing to watch. But I also thought he had a lot of grace as it related to all the live PGA tour stuff, the way he talked about it. Did he get some shots in? For sure. Did he talk at the Canadian Open about how he had one more win

Starting point is 01:38:50 than Greg Norman? Absolutely. But privately and publicly, I think he really wrestled with like, these guys are my friends and I don't like, I don't know what to do with all this. I don't know what to think about it. And I thought that he really handled everything really with a lot of grace, you know.

Starting point is 01:39:11 And humility at times. He had to bite a couple things of like, yeah, I called it, I said it was dead in the water. Like I had to readdress this and like, for some of the, he's got, he put himself out there a ton. Like it's super easy to say nothing when, when it, you know, it gets way easier to just kind of lie in the weeds

Starting point is 01:39:25 and be, I mean, just pulling, and like, Zander Schoffley, or Cantley, have not like been vehemently against this thing, right? Or have not been weakly addressing this. Yeah, it relates to the grand scheme. They've talked about their own decision making, but like, they're not, you know, rappers, I don't know, it's, you didn't,

Starting point is 01:39:43 you don't have to put yourself out there, and it's unsafe to put yourself out there as in the forefront as much as he has. Yeah, totally. And, you know, there was, he had this line at the US Open, where he said, you know, somebody asked, like, are you doing, are you playing well this year because of live or whatever, which I think is true. Like, he's very extrinsically motivated, right? Like, you think about the time, so he's played great after the writer cup last year, after Port Rush in 2019. He has these markers where he'll when he's extrinsically motivated, he'll just take off. Anyway, he said, no, I just,

Starting point is 01:40:23 he was talking about the leadership that he was kind of like putting himself out there like every other day it seemed like. And he said, he said something like, I'm not, I don't see myself as like this leader of sport or like the leader of the two, you know, it's I'm not doing it to motivate myself, I'm just being me. And I was like, yeah, dude, that's the point.

Starting point is 01:40:46 You know, like that's the point of all this is that he's just being himself. And I think that that line, whether you believe it or not, I think you and I do believe it. And that's why we're so drawn to somebody like him as we, I mean, I, again, you don't want to overstate it, but like, I am so glad that our careers have coincided with his. That's kind of what I was getting ready to say.

Starting point is 01:41:16 You know, like, yeah. It's such a, I don't wanna say privilege, cause like, whatever, but like, I feel a lot of joy and gladness that I get to, somebody sent me a DM the other day that said, you need to only write about Roy. I was like, that's all I do. But this person said because it draws the best out of you. And I was like, I don't really thought about that.

Starting point is 01:41:40 Like I just, I'm sort of just being me. Like I'm just trying to write or talk or whatever. And so I just, I'm sort of just being me, like I'm just trying to write or talk or whatever. And so I just, I feel a lot of gratitude that our careers have coincided with his, like the meat of his career as well. I mean, we owe a lot of our careers to him. I mean, he was one of the first big guests we ever had. He said great things about knowing up in the podcast. And that was like, wouldn't encourage me to quit my job. Like it it I don't we wouldn't be sitting in this room if it wasn't for for that guy. And it's not like I again kind of when we go borderline on the excessive of praising him.

Starting point is 01:42:14 It's not because it's not all because of that though. I feel like we owe him. It's just it is like you said, it's just like very very fortunate to have. And I think he feels the same way of like, you know, helping usher in a new era of like golf content that makes golf more entertaining for people. I think is kind of, that's not, it's not meant as a jab to like press reporters and people that are asking questions and press conferences, but I think it is, he's helped usher in a year, an era of content of just like a younger generation,

Starting point is 01:42:47 I think. Totally. Yeah, I think we probably made it all worse, all the worry in that admiration with this conversation. But it's just a point of like, there's a, I feel very comfortable having gotten to this conclusion about who we're talking about. And the entertainment, he provides. I mean, it's the part of what makes golf super intriguing is what happened at the old course this year and what happened of like putting yourself out there to potentially be heartbroken, like to be totally crushed, like that is so much of what golf is. And it may be he's eternally damn to that for the rest of his career, like, you know, the more you want these ones, specific things, the less likely it's probably to happen.

Starting point is 01:43:29 And I just have, I have admiration for the athletes that, you know, put themselves out there to get themselves absolutely crushed. Like he probably was after. That's what he did. I asked him in that presser as, I mean, it was such a surreal scene because Cam's getting the trophy

Starting point is 01:43:46 like a hundred yards away and we're as answering our questions. And I said did you think about it? Did you think about winning holding the trophy, you know, drinking from the quiet jug? He said yeah I was in my hotel every night at the at the rustics across the street looking up at the leaderboard. And I saw my name at the top. And I just tried to envision it being there at the end of the week. And he said it was there every day. And now it's not going to be tomorrow. And it was just such a moment of like, and then he calls

Starting point is 01:44:20 cam two days later and congratulate some. That was part of the grace thing. But it's such a, the romance I had never been to the old course and the romance of the old course, I thought, like coinciding with his heartbreak. Like I think the line that I used was like, the risk of romance is of course,

Starting point is 01:44:39 tremendous heartbreak, right? And that's what it was. I mean, people were like, oh, you got all you clowns in the media just wanted to Rory to win. There was like 97% of the people that were on the ground that week. Also clowns apparently.

Starting point is 01:44:53 We're also clowns. That's all people were talking about. The only thing in bars and restaurants, getting coffee, Rory, Rory, Rory, Rory. Like that was it. And you going around the coffee shops? Shout it out. Rory. Iory, Rory, like that was it. And I was like, you going around to the coffee shops? Shout it out. I was, Rory.

Starting point is 01:45:07 She's, I had a sign. I was wearing a sandwich board. Me and, me and Horsesho were just making declarations of the Downstate Andrews. That was the tournament of the year. And I think that, I think you're right, like him putting himself out there to get just, I mean, can you imagine that he's talked about like that night that Sunday night? Because it's not like the master's real good next year. It's the old course and it's you get one more for him one more rip at it

Starting point is 01:45:38 And he's gonna be like 38 or whatever maybe older like that was that was it. Yeah, right? and whatever, maybe older. Like that was it, right? And that has to be just from a, not even a golf standpoint, but from a time standpoint, just kind of overwhelming. Sure, that's, but that is again, so much of what defines watching golf and playing golf for some of you people is like,

Starting point is 01:45:59 the heartbreak, it is so fleeting, that's what made this open so historic. And I regret none of the romanticism about the moment, the week, I mean, Joel wrote about it beautifully in the book as well, just how can you not be romantic about this? Like this is it. Like this is the pinnacle of this sport. Yeah. It's such a weird time.

Starting point is 01:46:16 It was, it was weirdly representative of, you know, so many things. Just the minute, it's almost like everyone, you's almost like everyone wants this guy to win, that's when it just gets ripped away from you. Totally. Yeah. Well, I think we've sufficiently praised Roy. I think that's good. Yeah. It was an interesting year for him.

Starting point is 01:46:41 It was an interesting year for him. I was initially here to cover him. And again, I just, I'm, I'm tremendously grateful to have this period of time coincide with, you know, what is us writing books and making podcasts and, and all that stuff. It'll be fun to sit down someday and have a beer and talk about all that. Well, I'm just, as we, you know, KVV and I do these major championship deep dives back in history and like going to the archives and things. Then nobody was asking for nobody was asking for I was asking. I guess some people were, but people seem to love them. But it is now I view the everything. Like these books are going to be such an incredible resource for the future of like looking back at golf.

Starting point is 01:47:25 That's a weird way of phrasing a future of looking back at golf. But this is going to be a big documentation thing because we, there's so much stuff in there that I just forget about like Zalatore's the US Open, that you're like, how the hell do I forget about that? That was a huge part of like my job this year. It's so fleeting with so much going on that you forget about some of these moments. I'll never forget Fitz winning it, but you might forget who the close call. You might forget the one ball that plugs in the bunker that costs somebody a major.

Starting point is 01:47:50 And that's what makes, you know, reading something like this. For somebody that has lived all of this past year in great detail, the stuff that I was reminded of or learned in this book is extreme. It's surprising to me. Yeah. Well, I think I think your encouragement last year of like, hey, you got it, you know, you have to do this for the next 25 years. It was like in my mind all year. And I had a lot of health issues this year,

Starting point is 01:48:15 which I wrote about in the intro of the book and people can read that. And it was a hard year for me personally in a lot of ways. But both your encouragement, I know you were kind of joking last year, but kind of not. And then your encouragement this year of just like, when I sent you the chapters of how much you enjoyed it,

Starting point is 01:48:33 that really is like life-giving to hear that from somebody who is doing this stuff all the time. And I think that, to transition to the last thing I wanted to talk about, having a team, and again, I wrote about this in the intro, like, I loved having a team working on the book this year, like inviting people in. Oh, we had, I think, a 11, 10 or 11 total people working on it from, uh, Brennan Porath was kind of the head of doing our editing, Bill, Claire Rogers, DJ wrote a chapter. He actually refused, I was joking earlier,

Starting point is 01:49:08 he refused for me to pay him for it, which was absurd. But he's like, you've done like 4,000 hours on the podcast. I think I can write like, I think I can write a chapter. That's fair. So anyway, we decided to, for transparency, say we decided to give that money to the Evan Scholars Fund. So yeah, we decided to, for transparency sake, we decided to give that money to the Evan Scholars Fund. So yeah, that was cool.

Starting point is 01:49:27 But so those guys, obviously Jason Page, I think Jason Page is actually running golf, like he's the commissioner, like he's doing illustrations for everybody. You guys, me, Shaggin Starboys, Baycan do in the audio, and I'm trying to think I'm leaving people off here. Jeff Smith was our website guy, Hannah Diner was our copy editor that's my Finn Phil did the audio editing who who does stuff for you guys. So yeah it was just for me it was a tremendous joy to get to kind of lead that team and also to like I mean so much of of your is like, what can I say to make this person laugh? Right.

Starting point is 01:50:09 How can I make tron laugh? How can I make Neil laugh? And that was this book for me. How can I write something that'll make poor at the laugh? Poor at this heart, like, he's a hard person to like say something where he genuinely laughs. He says stuff all the time that makes the rest of us laugh, but the going the other way is difficult. And so I think it made the product better like I think the writing was better I think I think hopefully it was funnier and

Starting point is 01:50:31 That part of it for me was just that was a ton of fun. I really enjoyed getting to do that You're you're honing in on the details and intricacies of golf is what you really like break things really doubt It does just make you laugh of just that, not better example than the blades of grass around the spring to ahead, the match plays. It's just like, on that surface, this is so uninteresting and can glance right by. If you really get into it, it is so freaking absurd. Yes.

Starting point is 01:50:58 Yes, it does provide a lot of laughs. So, for, remind people again, where they can buy it in the code. A, normalsport.comcom and we've got hardcover digital however you audio whatever you want. We've got last year stuff. We've got some the illustrations are actually posters that you can purchase. And then if you use NLU at checkout again, there won't be a discount, but there will be automatically entered into a giveaway for some NOU approach up gift cards.

Starting point is 01:51:27 So that'll be, yeah. And that drawing will be on at the end of the year. So just the end of December, December 31. And part two of this podcast on Roy will be out next week. Well, we have, we have been started talking about lineups for the Ryder Cup. So we'll be doing many of those check-ins this year. So, glad we can do this in person, man. Thanks again for writing it. I do encourage people to go buy it

Starting point is 01:51:50 and helping us recap the last year, the wildest year, probably, that will be of our careers if we're lucky. So, absolutely. Thank you. As always for having me, I never take it for granted that I get to come on and promote the team.

Starting point is 01:52:04 Yeah, I mean, I'm no better than the live guys, honestly. I get for granted that I get to come on and promote the team. Yeah, I mean, I'm no better than the live guys, honestly. No, I don't take that for granted. It's been fun over the years and I'm grateful to get to do it. Cheers, buddy. Be the right club today. That is better than most. How about him?

Starting point is 01:52:28 That is better than most. Better than most. Expect anything different. Free.

No Laying Up - Golf Podcast - NLU Podcast, Episode 625: Kyle Porter - Normal Sport 2

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