No Laying Up - Golf Podcast - NLU Podcast, Episode 639: Will Zalatoris

Episode Date: February 2, 2023

Will Zalatoris joins the pod to detail his return from a back injury that ended his 2022 season, his mental approach to competing in majors, the disappointment of his runner up finishes, his putting stroke on short putts, playing junior golf with Jordan Spieth and Scottie Scheffler, the future of the PGA tour and a ton more. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

I'm going to be the right club today. Yes. That is better than most. I'm not in. That is better than most. Better than most. The Ladies and Gentlemen, welcome back to the No Langing Up podcast, Sully here, interview coming shortly with Will Zalatoris. Super quick drop to say this interview is brought to you by our friends at Titlest and Footjoy.

Let's get into it with Will. So with everything going on in Dallas this week, I was like, this is either the best possible time to do an interview or maybe the worst possible time, which one is it? Absolutely the best. I've been sitting at home for two days, looking out this white stuff on the ground. It's been driving me nuts. So kind of nice to put the clubs up for a little bit, but after having four months off, I don't think I need any more off time. What are the feels like? What's it like taking four months off of golf, you were playing some incredible golf,

and we'll rewind to that. But what's it like getting back into it? How are the feels after a break like that? Yeah, I'm just super rusty. The easy stuff, like, you know, playing in, I guess you would say, playing at Capulua, playing at Palm Springs when it's, you know, like playing in a dome

or it's a birdie fest, you know, you can get it, but you know like I was laughing trying to hit a couple of like punch seven irons at Tori on Thursday and granted it was blowing 30 but I was like missing my yardage is by like 20 yards and I was like Yeah, I'm not used to this. This is this is definitely different, but actually it feels good It's it's just you know, it's a couple of small changes. It's just, like I can do this stuff when, you know, like I said in the easy conditions, it's just getting it back to where it's like,

okay, ball below your feet, wind off your left pin. It's like, can I really trust aiming left of this pin? So it's just, it's little things like that, but it's so far, you know, no pain in the back. It's like my first couple of weeks were a little different to just with the, you know, like I normally only play like nine and nine and I played like 18 a day. So it was like, I get to the end of the week and I'm like, man, I'm exhausted. I'm like, you hit it. You play golf or living here, talk about being tired on Sunday.

But when your body falls out of the rhythm that you're used to, I could easily see that. So if you're talking about getting your feels back, getting back to a back left pin with a punch shot in competitions, that's something you can get back to through pounding range balls? Or is it, you got to play a ton of golf at home, or is it only through tournaments? What is your path back to feeling

like you have all those feels back? Yeah, a ton of playing. I think when I get back on, once we get rid of all the snow here, I think I'm probably going to end up playing 18 a day, you know, doing a probably try to get in some money games with the boys that are at home. It's funny because it's like I'd have Days where it's like, oh shoot a nonchalot 69 or whatever, then there's days where it's like, oh man 65. I got it and then All of a sudden I show up the next day and hit like three fairways eight grains and you're like, okay man, 65, I got it. And then all of a sudden, I show up the next day, I hit like three fairways, eight grains, and you're like, okay, we're still got some work to do.

There's just layers to it, it seems like, right? You know, you could feel like I recaptured it, but then you work backwards, and it's like, do you have the 71 yard shot right now? Do you have that one? Do you have all the exact ones you need? I can't imagine. So you, I believe you spent some time out at TPI working

on your body. I want to unpack what happened with your back. Do you have to change anything with your swing, with your body, with your equipment or anything as a result of this injury? I wonder if you can walk us through that process. Yeah, so I want to go see Greg Rose. Greg is absolutely amazing. He came in to Dallas and I think early November when I was still not even clear to even

pot or anything. And he basically put me through a whole bunch of tests to try to figure out, okay, obviously like people and they have back issues, it's not because of their back, it's because of something else. And so like his description to me once was adductor problems are from your hips, back problems, or I can't you guys say this, it was something ridiculous where it's like adductor pain is a root cause from your hip, back pain is a cause from your hip, and then it's like if it's none of the above, then it has to do something with your thoracic spine. And so mine was a little bit more complicated in the fact that

I'm a little bit like JT where I push off my right side, my right foot comes up, and I'm very dynamic when I get to the ball. But my issue was that my weight would actually go to the outside of my right foot. When I get to the top of my back swing, then it would center on the way down, and then I would push late off my right foot. Even though my right foot was high, I would still have weight on my right side. And so what happens is you have the side bend,

and then you have a late push, and now my right hip gets high with side bend, and as he said, well, no doubt, no one already have back problems. But I thought it was funny that he's basically telling no doubt, no one already have back problems. But I thought it was funny that he's basically telling me that the root cause of my back issues was because an immobile right ankle and a type that asks to spine. So we had to do a bunch of El Dolo work, which is this kind of like woo-wooly like distraction type thing where it's like you basically are, instead of

we're always taught to breathe out of your belly, breathe out of your chest so that it expands your thoracic spine. That's the only way how you can basically stretch your ribcage, just doing stretches with breathing. The ankle stuff, you know, you can take care of yourself and do a bunch of mobility work on that. But basically the way how to put all that together, what I've started to do is actually take, kick my left hip up high, I had a dress, but then shift my weight back to my right side, so that my left hip stays higher,

and then I'm basically able to rotate around my spine better, as opposed to kind of thrusting at the ball and having a high right hit. So that's kind of like the most like in depth, I could probably give you without boring you to tears with all the 3D stuff and everything. But no, I want to know about that. The 3D stuff is, I mean, because this is an, you know, an injury that's leading to, it sounds like a swing change, right? Would you describe it as that as well? Yeah, I mean, it's kind of like,

I would always put the ball in the back of my stance. I'd open up and I would jam into it. The problem with that is when you have those issues with your back, that's just going to create that right hip to get higher. And so I've had to play the ball a little bit farther forward at the start. I went to a little bit of a shorter driver,

but it's really all at a dress. Like it kind of takes care of everything in the swing, but it's kind of like, you get a day where it's like ball in 30, and I'm used to having the ball in the back by stance and hammer a cut, and it's like, well, don't put it back there quite yet, just because we don't want to, you know, there's no reason to chance it in January. And so, like, I'm playing a 44- and 3-quarter inch driver right now. I've actually drove it far and I've weirdly, I made a career out of the right rough so far on the PGA tour and weirdly I'm missing them left. So if anything, I was like, well, this is different, but it's been a work in progress. I mean, it feels good. It's just taken a little bit of time, but again, you know, coming back after four months and playing three weeks, I'm pleased with where I'm at physically performance-wise, obviously, I go a long way to go.

And you changed golf balls in this process too? Did I understand that right? Yeah, so basically, you know, I was playing the 2019 V or Pro V1. I just switched to the 2023 Pro V1 X, which a lot of guys, you've been playing the 2019 Pro V1 switched into the 23x. It's a lot better through the wind for me. I've picked up like a couple yards off the tee compared to my old ball, but you know, ball is the engine of everything we do. So if I'm gonna change the golf ball, then you need to change everything.

But the difference was for me is everything stayed the exact same. It was just a little bit better through the win. A more operator error the last couple of weeks for me than anything could play through the win and miss it in my shots by 20 yards. But being able to see a golf ball fight the win as well as it did is a huge bonus, especially once we get into tournaments like Bay Hill

where one yard on the green could be on the back edge and a yard short could be plugged into bunker type thing. Same thing with any US open where you get on firm greens. Being able to fight the winds is huge. So that was a really easy fix. I got asked a lot when I switched, hey, what was the process? I basically told him, well, 40 came out with golf balls.

Once a month, they'd said, hey, try this. And I'd say, oh, too hard. Not enough spend. And then all of a sudden, he brought this golf ball up. And I'm like, I have no complaints. This is perfect. It was like, I wish I had some super sexy process to tell you that we were on the range with track band

and this and that. But I'm like, if it passes the eye test, I mean, then that's 95% of it. If it's downwind and the ball's not going to sail, kind of stay up through the wind and sail. Or if it's into the wind, it gets killed by the wind. Okay, well, there's your two tests. Really downwind and into the wind were the two things I looked for, and into the wind, it was probably a five or six-yard difference consistently fighting it through the wind with a six or five hour.

That makes all the difference in the world you don't even need to even say that part out loud. That makes all the difference in the world, especially when it comes to, it seems like a huge thing is trust and competition too. Like when you are presented with a, you're presented with a different scenario every single time you play a certain hole, right? And you can practice that on the range of a million times, but until you have the trust of like, this is how far I know in competition, my golf ball is going to go and how much it's gonna fade, how much it's gonna draw,

it just seems like something that there's, I don't know how you simulate that at home, right? Yeah, I mean, farther, yeah, that's what I keep telling people, is farther is not better. I mean, that's farther is better to an extent, but if I'm hitting an iron in my hand, if I needed to go 172, it needs to go 172, because if I hit at 168, it could be plugged in the bunker

and I lose a golf tournament. Yeah. I really don't, I don't know you at all. So this is I'm projecting this, but you don't seem overly driven by money, but damn, that was a tough time for that injury. That was a really tough time for that injury to have hit. Yeah, you know, it's kind of funny, because I mean, I guess technically this is my third

year on tour kind of, but I've never played East Lake. So like, I just, I always kind of find that funny that like I never played in college. I was, if I had had FedEx Cup, or had been one of the FedEx Cup standings, I think I would have been 24th going into playoffs and then obviously what happened last year. So I find it very funny. But you know, it's like I'm glad it happened then because yeah, like I've been pretty vocal about winning, or my career goal has been to win a major and as nice as it would have been to go after, you know, $18,000, and then, you know, or whatever it was for the FedEx Cup,

plus whatever we were planning for in Europe, it's just kind of not my end goal. And trust me, I'm the ultimate capitalist there is. You know, that doesn't mean I'm, you know, like, hey, I'm gonna go play for a less money type thing. It's just not, it's never, I think growing up with the FedEx cup starting in 2007, like we watch Tiger win everything prior to that. And I think my goal has always been to win one of those four tournaments.

And so I think the younger guys have grown up with it a lot more than I have. I think the younger guys have grown up with it a lot more than I have. But, you know, at the end of the day, like, those four tournaments, I don't care what we're planning for. Like, that's just been my career goal. Like, yes, by, trust me, like I said, I'm the ultimate capitalist. I want to make as much money as possible. And yeah, it sucks missing those events. But the money part will take care of itself.

Like, if what I rather come home with $15 million or whatever it is or a rather come home with a major, well for me it's a major, and that's just my personal preference. Makes all this, I mean yeah, if money was a bigger driver, you could have made a very different decision over the last couple of years

that some people have chosen to make, but we'll save that for later. But so it's interesting to me, that being your main goal, your vocal about that that and when I look at your career and when major Chambers roll around you jump off the page like your performance in the biggest events the events that people want to peek for the most You have performed your best. What do you owe that to? I think it's I mean, I think it's kind of multifaceted. I think the first part is I definitely have more of a

lose-a-fair attitude when I get out there and play those tournaments just because making bogies is not a bad thing in some of them. For me, I've always played terrible at the tournaments we've got actually 27, 28 under bar. Like, me going and playing in Bay Hill or Riviera where like year in and route the courses are harder. I mean it allows my ball striking to the talking and then I think that's why I've played well at Augusta is the fact that my two best stats on tour are lag putting and iron play. So you throw that in there and it's like

I'm gonna give myself more 20 to 25 footers and everybody out there and I'm the fact I'm getting a more around the whole and you know playing big high lines, it just gives them a better chance of going in. So I think it's part of that and then I think it's a little bit of the art of just playing like US Opens to me or just fun. Like it's a psychotic attitude to say that but it's like going out and trying to, basically, if you get out of position, it's like, okay, what's my best chance to make bogey from here? And then really your best chance to make a bogey is probably your best chance to make a part too, which sometimes you just have to accept that, you know, like at Wingfoot, 500 yard par four with five inch roughball around you, like, okay, I need to lay this up

to 100 yards, so so that's 18 feet that's how I make par I make par like that's just basically how those events operate and so I think Being able to go out and you know ball strike my way around and let the putter get hot whenever it gets hot You know like I said I if you really think about it You know you play and say if you have a 10-year career and you're lucky to play in all four majors, that's not many chances. And so I think for me, just going out and really, it's a weird freedom for me to play in those events.

And it's actually stuff that I talked about with Greg Rose where he just said, like, when you go playing regular events, you need to start treating them like majors because when you play in those regular events, you're always working on something, you're trying something new, you're doing this, doing that. And in reality, when you get to majors, you're like, okay, I'm going to go play nine holes, maybe go roll a few puts and get out of here because if I'm not ready, I'm not ready. And he's like, you need to kind of start doing that a little bit more. You know, like, hey, when you go play the bar in Elson, you make a bogey on two, you feel like you made triple because you're looking at the lead and it's like nine under par,

but it's like, keep doing what you're doing and keep working on what you're working on. And eventually that's 62 or three will pop out. Like don't force it to happen. And it opens. It's more of like, hey, if you get your chances, you get your chances. Like, par is a good score. And so I think having a little bit of that freedom of, if I screw up type thing in an open, like it's okay, like good shots are not going to get rewarded. And so I think it's a little bit of an attitude change, but it's also, you know, like I said, I think it's just the mental freedom of like, hey, I want to do this my whole life.

Like, here's your chance. the mental freedom of like, hey, I want to do this my whole life. Like, here's your chance. So what is it like then, you know, let's just go to really your first big run in a major 2021 masters. Really easy to sit here and say, yeah, here's your chance. Go have fun. What's Saturday night like? What's Sunday morning like as you're getting ready to go to you off to go

compete in a master's and what's it like to stand over golf shots on that day? I always tell people that Friday night into Saturday morning was probably of the four days and probably the day I thought I was going to ship myself because I'm playing in the final group of a major. I've never been in a final group of any PJ tour of it. And so I'm playing with Justin Rose in the final group, put it in the bunker at the tee on one, hit the lip out of the bunker, then make up and down from like 80 yards and I'm like, okay, we're good. And I think that gave me the freedom for Sunday because I think I was in the third, yeah, third to last group. And so I think after being in the final group and being, you know, around, you know, kind of being

center stage for that long, kind of freed me up going into Sunday, you know, opened up Sunday, birdie, birdie on one and two. And it was like, okay, you know, here you go. If this is it, like there's, you know, you got nothing to lose here. Getting ready for Saturday was probably the one that got me. I always laugh at this because I actually sleep worse on Sunday nights than I do on Saturdays, which like, I'll sleep like a baby on Saturday night, you know, if I'm around the lead or whatever major weekend. But then it's like Sunday and coming down, not realizing the adrenaline and everything.

Like I'm always up to like four or five in the morning, you know, going into Monday morning. And it's just kind of like, I think that's probably part of the reason why weeks after majors have just been useless. It just, it takes me, you know, being in contention, it feels like you're playing two weeks in one. But then taking two or three days to kind of like come down

from it is probably the reason why I've just been absolutely useless at colonial and heritage, but we're working on it. We're getting there. A quick break here to check in with our friends at Gooter. You have heard me say some amazing things about these sunglasses. I cannot tell you how many times I've wasted $180 on a pair of sunglasses, lost them, and broke them within the first month. Gooder addresses all this there. Incredible polarized sunglasses. They're only like $25, they got so many great styles.

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corn fairy, like, oh, he had a great week, congratulations. And then coming back the next year and losing it a playoff was affirmation to me that, hey, you're going to get one someday. And then still know I had a pot on 18 didn't go in on I can't want to go back someday it just be like how the hell does that ball not break a zinger set it to it's like everybody's miss that pot high I thought I made it but I think the one that the one that ate it me the most is definitely the PGA just given the fact that I played like crap on Saturday and fought pretty hard on Sunday and I made a couple decisions 2020 hindsight that I probably shouldn't have done but that is what it is. That's part of you know

it you can always look back and even have tournaments you won you're like oh I could have done this and I could have saved me a shot or two. But I think just being that close was the one that kind of ate at me the most for sure. But the US open, I think, like matches went out and won that one. Like he played so good, the parry made on 18 was a joke. Like that one was probably the easiest to swallow out of the three. You know, the master's like, even though I, you know, lose by one, I kind of was way out of it and then those big made a mess of it coming in.

Hadecki, I think Hadecki maybe like bogey two out of his last three or something like that. So I was kind of always on the fringe of being in contention on Sunday, but yeah, the PGA is definitely the one that they need to be the most because I love that golf course I played great It just really had a bad Saturday and play fine on Sunday. It just you know Just needed one or two shots, and that's just the beauty of this game is I don't regret any of the decisions that I'm that I made it's just more of like Going back and and thinking, it's just more of like going back and faking through.

It's like, well, probably should have done that differently. But in the moment, I thought I made the right decision, there's nothing I can do. Well, and that's the thing, when I look at all three of those results, too, there's no moment you point out of like, ah, you blew it there or a huge mistake. You know, especially when the pressure got highest that you backed down from the challenge or didn't didn't didn't hit the shots you want to, right? I mean everyone saw that putt at Brookline. That was as good of a putt as you could hit the shock on your face was pretty evident like it just that's that's why I was just curious to kind of unpack that with you of this tremendous success you've had with the close call. How

do you balance the heartbreak and the and the achievement, but it seems like you're in a good place with it. Yeah, well, it's super funny too. And trust me, there's no excuse for hitting a five iron almost off the property on the par three, fifth or six or whatever hole it is at Southern Hills, but a buddy of mine went up and played. And for some reason, that bush of where I hit it on the property line is gone. There's one hole in the fence line now, and it's of the one bush that I hit it in. And I'm like, what the hell? Like I will give you back my second place check

to not make me take a drop. Like I will pay for that bush, whatever I make, you can have that money. If I can go back and do that again, but either way, that's still a horrible offshot. This is the top billing of this episode, I would say that what I'm most looking forward to talking with you about, people are most looking forward to hear the answer on.

I need an explanation in your words of your close range putting stroke. I need to understand the strategy how we got to this and how do we get here. No, I just, whatever Josh and I have tried to work on too much, I've always had a habit of taking it inside. And so playing in the win that day and trying to fight my, fighting myself a little bit, you know, it is what it is. Like here's the thing though, is like statistically, like, yeah, I need to be better from four to eight, nine feet.

I'm not winning any beauty contest, but like, 35th best butter on tour. So this year. So like, I don't talk about here. Yes. Yeah. No. So I mean, like, yeah, do I need to get better? Is it sexy? Yeah, I need to get better. And yeah, it's, it's not the best. But like when, when it feels good, I will take on anybody in the world no matter what range does it matter. But, you know, I'm not afraid to go out and hit a few puts off the toe every now and again and be a little uncommitted to what I'm doing. But then again, I do have a lot of top 10s. Statistically, it's not as bad as it actually looks, which I know is hard to believe for some people.

I know I love getting ripped for it, but at the end of the day, like, like I said, I'll take anybody on any time. Like, I need to get better, I need to get better of, you know, taking them more outside. And I've been, I've just done this for the last, I don't know, forever, it seems like, but the beauty of it is, is it's like, if that's the one thing people are going to ridicule me for, is essentially, you know, maybe missing a free-through every now and again, I'm happy with where I'm at. So I'll keep working on what I'm doing. See, what I've taken it as is that you,

like Stuart Singh talked about this too, he started doing like a little pump fake in from close range. To me, it looks like it's almost intentional that you're the loop you do on short puts now. It looks very different than your eight foot putting stroke, right? So it seems to work for you relatively. I don't have the numbers in front of me as to what you,

if you have improved, but it is not pretty, but it gets the club moving and it is effective. Like I feel like you're managing that. Yeah, I just, like I said, I've got to be better about it. There's no excuses for it whatsoever. I trust me. Whenever I've potted my best,

I've done a much better job of not taking it inside. And I'll keep working on it. But like I said, if that's the one thing that people are gonna have to bash before, like what are you gonna bash before when you know, once I, you know, whenever I'm showing up at majors and I keep making buds and I keep being in contention,

like, look, I know I gotta get better with it. I will get better with it. I think coming back off of injury and not really feeling that comfortable with any aspect in my game, I'm gonna do some pretty stupid shit while I'm out there and it is what it is. But I'm probably saying this is like the analysis curse. I've missed a three footer and two years on tour. So am I winning any beauty contest?

Hell no, but I will keep trying to get better with it. And obviously there's been a lot of, been some putting the last few days since I've been at home sitting inside with some snow on the ground. From where I'm coming from, it's not bashing. It is, it is incredibly fascinating to watch it do to hit the ball like, like, just be in God mode in a golf tournament. And then when it gets to close range, it's like, this is going to be fun. Like the ball like like just be in God mode in a golf tournament and then when it gets a close range is like this is going to be fun like it's going to be fun it's must see TV like I think that that is that is just incredibly fascinating and I have been a stodged offender of you I think he's freed up with it I honestly think the loop

is like what is is his way of of hitting shortpots and it like you said it seems to be seems to be working so I love it I'm way it seems to be working. So I love it, I'm way in. Yeah, I mean, like I said, I think it's, I find it funny and obviously I've had some people that have come to my defense over it. And I'm like, like yeah, I know it ain't pretty, but if I'm gonna keep going, I'll keep doing what I'm doing. I kind of like just got,

if you need something to complain about, I'm glad I'm giving you something to talk about Well, it's truly a scorecard does it take pictures got a thing right if it goes in I wouldn't change a damn thing if I was you That's for sure so What so after you again your close calls in the majors and you know You kind of talked a little bit about not being able to not having the same level success in PGA tour events But you find yourself back in contention and Memphis You've of course had the close call at Tory Pines last year,

but you hit, you make the putt on the 18th green 72nd hole, and you let out a huge, what are they going to say now? And we, that happened, we were kind of like, man, I think everyone kind of likes Will. I mean, who's he yelling at here? Who's this direct to that? I had a few people in mind, but I'm not gonna share who it was, but I just, like I said, actually after I won,

I keep leave, I actually said that, let alone still having golf ahead of me. But no, I mean, I think I've been that close that many times, and I think it just started to really eat at me. I mean, I think I had had four second places on tour, three of them in majors, I think it just started to really eat at me. I mean, I think it had four second places on tour, three of them in majors, I think. And so I think, I kind of felt like a little bit like Fina did for a few years where it was like,

oh yeah, he's really good. You know, mediocre with his potting, maybe needs to get a little bit better. Like, yeah, he's just, see me one of those guys, who's always around, you know, kind of like a six man type thing. Like I'd start getting kind of a little bit of that treatment from some people. And so like, I think for me, you know,

it'd been a pretty wild two weeks, you know, hiring Joel, that was our first tournament together, you know, being that close that many times and then finally making the putt on 18. Like, I think the thing that I had really kind of prided myself on was like I hadn't really given a tournament away at that point, but I also had made a lot of clutch putts throughout the year that, you know, like in match play, like I made three putts I think on

the 18th hole to keep matches going. It was two for sure and then made one against Victor to take a extra hole. So I think I've birdied like four out of my last five holes. But like I had made, you know, made the put on 18 at PGA. And so I think if anything like it was, I had seen, I had made a lot of puts that I thought really mattered to me. And then it was finally nice to do it on the 72nd hole

at a regulation tournament. And then backing it up the way that I did. So I think I think if anything it was it was just starting to finally get to me a little bit and I had like I said, higher and Joel and having you know kind of a long couple weeks personally you know with switching caddies you know I was pretty cool for that week to do it. That was not a week especially after being too over through my first time holes that I was expecting to be in the third playoff hole and thinking about, you know, if I'm making a turn at two over through nine holes on Thursday, if you told me that I was going to have an eight footer for Bogey to win the playoff Sunday

afternoon, I would have thought you were on some drugs. It wasn't, you know, it goes to, I mean, a 15 under, I guess, was the winning score, but that's not low by PGA tour standards, right? So that kind of goes to what you were saying about maybe struggling a little bit more with the birdie fest to maintain that, because yeah, the two bogies don't. Did obviously did not signal the end of your week. That's got to be something to fall back on to. Now, every time you go out and two over, you know you're not out of the golf tournament,

right? You've done it now. I've been a very notorious slow starter. And so like any of the tournaments that I've ever played well and I've always played well on Thursday. And so I kind of laughed because I was two over through nine. And I looked at Joel and Joel was just kind of like, he's like, all right bud, like it's regrouped.

And I'm like, I did this Thursday. Like for some reason, my Thursday, Thursday, there's not a lot of giddy up in me for some other reason. And then so I think I have shooting like 63, 65, 66. And so like he always gives me a hard time about that because like we have a game that we play too, where we'll have like a nine hole practice round bet

where it's like, okay, you gotta shoot three or four under. And like he laughs at me because I always have to birdie 18. And like 95% of the time I'll do it, but like even we're laughing at it. It's like, can't you just show up and birdie like the first four holes and we can cruise into 18? You know, like you always, it could be a one under bet and you would still have to do one under, you know, still have to birdie 18. Like, we need to start making our games at like seven under so we can get a little better on these easy courses What are what are your games like in Dallas? You mentioned kind of playing some money games at while you're home But who do you who do you tee it up with guys? We know or is it most of guys we don't know?

Yeah, I mean, you know a lot with with Jordan. I mean, we I'm at it one of the places I play as Dallas national And so we've got a pretty good crew guys out there. I mean it's Jordan's beef Kelly craft national and so we've got a pretty good crew guys out there. I mean it's Jordan Spieth, Kelly Kraft, Sebastian Munio, Scottie Sheffler, Tony Romo, Carlos Ortiz, Bryson's kind of out there. Bryson hasn't really played golf. Tom Kim, a new member out there out here. Tom Kim, Tom Kim's a new member, actually played for the first time with him on Sunday for nine holes, which I'd spent a lot of time with them off of course, but God he's so funny. He's such a good dude.

What was your endorsement like of Tom Kim joining? I heard a story about that. Well, so that one kind of got taken a little out of context. We're basically, I got asked, he just said, hey, what's he like? And I just said, like, look, the guy's amazing. He needs to be here. And he's exactly the member that you would want at Dallas National. But the story that I tell is when I went to the president's cup and I was following along with guys on the first matches I was

walking was stricter watching cam because stric was responsible for Cam, and I think he was with Colin, and they were playing K H Lee and Tom, and K H was on the tee on the par three, what is that like four I think. And Tom doesn't even stand up on the box with K H. Like K H is up there with his caddy. Tom comes like 40 yards ahead of the tee box, and comes and finds me.

And like comes and says like hey man how's your back how you doing? I know he's a great guy but I'm like you're in the president's cup you do not need to talk to me. Like this is this is like way above and beyond but that's just who he is. You know it's just like hey man how you doing? You're putting the president's cup like go focus like don't talk to me like I'm a fan. I'll go outside the ropes as I have to. But I mean he's so funny. He's such a good dude. He's so happy, go lucky. But yeah, I mean like probably some of my favorite knockout knockdown dragouts have been with kind of Scotty, Jordan, and Roma just because all three of us just harassed Roma was so hard. And the three of us have grown

up playing Junior Golf together since we were nine. And so like those are the games where honestly it's like golf is completely irrelevant. Like we could basically just be, you know, we could be playing a gin game between holes or something like that. And I would want to be just murdering that. And so like those are the best days, you know, going out and playing. And you know, it's just some of the insane stories of Jordan pulling out shots from left and right. Or Tony is the king of shooting like 74, but with like six birdies. And so it's like if I give him six shots, I could get absolutely murdered.

But those are the games that keep you fresh. I mean, there's a lot of fun. I mean, pretty much we can get any, we can get a five-some with at least three or four pros pretty much every day in Dallas. So you, you moved from California to Dallas. What age was that? Was that, at nine, you said you played with those guys since then. What was that like in terms of coming there and competing with these guys at that age? What was that learning curve like for you? Yeah, you know, it was funny because I was actually, I was born in San Francisco. My dad was a member of a California golf club

for about 20 years. And I was the only kid there. I mean, if you asked me when I was six or seven years old, who were my two heroes, I would say Aaron Obaholzer and Tiger Woods because Aaron grew up playing at Calc club. And he was the one PJ tour pro that was at Calc club at the time.

And so it's like, yeah, I want to be him. And then, um, but so we moved to Texas. I had not played any competitive junior golf yet. And my first tournament I played and I think Jordan won was like a 12 to 13 year old one day and then at Barrett Creek, I think he shot like 81, or like, no, he shot like 74, Scotty shot like 81 and I shot like 96. And we were like, I think he shot like 81, or like, no, he shot like 74, Scotty shot like 81, and I shot like 96, and we were like, I think Scotty and I were nine years old. Jordan was like 11 or 12, and you know, that was basically for the next five years,

we played competitive golf against each other literally every week. And so it made it really fun just because it's like, Jordan shooting 63 as a 14 year old. And we snuck out to Ben Tree where I grew up playing. And he wasn't old enough to drive a car, but we still got him a car in anyways. And you know, he shoots 29 on the front,

hitting like six greens. And I'm like, what is going on? Like you're 14, let alone shooting 29, like you birdied every green that you hit. Like this is absurd. So, you know, I made it fun and, you know, Jordan was kind of the guy that Scotty and I followed and, you know, really, you know, Scotty had a hell of an amateur college career and, you know,

we put on the same walker cup team together and, you know, it's been fun kind fun chasing both of them throughout my entire career because it's definitely made me better. Jordan set the standard, Scotty won a US junior and I won a US junior and we're really lucky because we all grew up in the same system. You look at the names that came out of the North Texas PGA. It's not just us. It's pretty wild.

And, you know, we're pretty fortunate, especially now with PGA Frisco going in. Yeah, that place is outrageous. Have you played it yet? No, I haven't. I need to go up there. But it's so funny because everything that has a name to it, I know the person,

because they were in the sections, like the Roddy Glanton short came here like I've known Roddy since I was like nine years old and his son and I went to high school together. So it's really funny because it's like I know all these people and they're amazing people because they've done like I said they've done a bunch of stuff for Jordan and Scotty myself. Yeah, I'm excited to see how you guys react to that place because it's a different challenge. It's wide, put some small greens that are angled

a little funny. And it just is. When you fly into Dallas, LaField, you fly right over it. And I've looked at it, and I'm like, that's Texas. Like really? It's going to be interesting. But it all grows up around it. And we got a chance to put there a few weeks ago.

It's really good. I think it's what modern like what modern, modern major chaperchips are going to maybe look like more than just straight length and thick rough and all that stuff. So, so, Presidents Cup, you were going to be a member of that team by all accounts and the entry happened. You went to the Presidents Cup, but what was that experience like?

What was it like being a part of that team room? Still kind of feels weird to me that you haven't been a part of a playing part of any of the team competitions to this point, but if you're asking me, you look like a big part of that future. What was that experience like being in that room with those guys? Yeah, it's super cool.

It's just because, you know, actually Scotty and Jordan asked me if I wanted to go. And I said, guys, I'll be there in any capacity that you guys let me. If I don't care if I got to make sandwiches I just expect a shitty sandwich, but I'm in but yeah, I mean being able to see I think the in depth that goes into a lot of the Thought of like alternate shot like hey Like I played enough team competition that I know what we think you should do, but then

also having stats guys. That was really interesting because I have never had a stats person for a team of them before. Just seeing why they think this and having the guys go and pick their brains was super cool. But seeing also how the vice captains were responsible for each kind of pod if you will of players. Just in general, I mean it was literally, it was a well-oiled machine and a lot of those guys around the team were new, but everyone fit in perfect and it was a really really cool atmosphere to be a part of for a couple days. You know, the

camaraderie in the team room of guys, you know like I think it was JT and Jordan playing Sam and Scotty and ping pong and I mean it was Violent and that's just but that's the part that that's stuff that is that's so cool to sit there and and be there for I mean But I think you know being able to watch you know like JT picks strikers brain a little bit on some of the short game. These are guys that I think it's so cool that these are the top players in the world. And then you have these vice captains that have been some of the top players in the world for a very long time.

And the respect for those guys, you know, asking them questions, hey, how do you do this? How do you do that? I learned, it was amazing because I didn't have to touch a golf club. I didn't have to focus on the golf course. I literally just walked around and just soaked up as much as I possibly could have. And it was really just seeing the, you know, like striker teaching JT how to hit this one shot out of the rough. And it's like, well, JT is a two time major champion.

He's one of the top players in the world. Like, I'm surprised he's going to ask him, but that's, that's the same thing. Like strikers one of the best of all time, you know, like pick his brain. Zachrikers one of the best of all time. You know, like, pick his brain, Zach Johnson, one of the best wedgers and putters of all time. Pick his brain, how do you do your things? And so I think, just me being there, I mean, it got my juices for on. I was still probably a month away from me

even picking up a putter, but just being able to go and experience it was amazing. Listen to Roy Williams give a kind of a pet talk before they go out, I mean, I was jacked. I felt so weird just standing there on the first tee and I'm like, yeah, I'm not supposed to do anything besides just staying here. What, can you give us any example

of any of the little lessons you're talking about? The shot out of the rough or anything like that. Any, because I'm interested what stuck with you several months later of like a little technique thing that somebody does. Everyone was asking Strucker for subsorb advice, and I actually was talking to Cammy all about this the other day.

As he was asking me how he was like, hey, how do you knock off spin with ledges? And I'm like, dude, Strucker was your partner at QVD. If I were you, I'd be blown up his phone like every five seconds. I'm not the guy to ask, but I think the one that really Stuck with me was watching Steve hit this kind of like out of

two three-inch Bermuda rough half sitting up half sitting down Trying to chase a ball across like a lot of green and he would take a pitching ledge, he would, he would hood the club like big time, have his hands high. And like if, if JT or I try to hit the chip, like we would hit it maybe a foot and height off the ground and it would probably, it would come out like a missile and then Steve would do it and it would somehow right up the face go like four or five feet in the air and it would have some air underneath it, and it wouldn't come out like a, you know, like mock-free. And I'm just sitting there and I'm like, how the hell do you do this? And that finally,

you know, like Mike Thomas was taking videos just to like keep her his own sake. And I just sat there and I was so like, I just didn't want to be the guy where I'm like, hey Steve, do you show me this again? Like you're holding up my phone at his face. But I was just sitting there and I'm like, I tried it when I came home and I'm like, I can't do that. I don't wonder how he does that. And so that was one to me, like watching Steve hits him like literally pitching wedges

from like two feet off the greens with maybe 45 feet of green in front of him. As opposed to like taking a 60 and like having a hammer it or like put it up through the air. And just every time like coming out four or five feet of height with no spin, I was just trying to allow it perfectly. And I'm like, God bless.

Like this is worth the price of admission. I saw Strik hit one chip at a Champions event this fall. And it like changed the way I chipped. I just just by watching. I was like, okay, well, I'm making this way too hard. The way he moved his hand through the ball and how simple all that was. Like I am way over complicating.

I'm open and I'm doing all this other stuff. And it was just like watching Picasso paint. It was insane. And it's also his delivery too, because it's just kind of that aweshock. I just kind of put ball back in my stance and I just kind of popped it down on it. And I'm like, yeah, I'm trying to do that.

It's not working. How on a completely different note, all the, it seems like the conversation has kind of trended away towards live and more towards the future of the PGA tour and how things have changed already and are going to be changing in the future. How do you see your role in this? You're still an up and coming player,

but one of the top players in the game, you're in the meetings now with Tiger Woods and Roy McElroy talking about coming up with these new changes. How do you see your role in it all? This is my second year being on the Player Advisory Council, which I think these changes that, to kind of back up for a second, I think the one thing that everyone needs to do when it comes to talking about live versus a PGA tour or vice versa. What are the changes the tour needs to make?

I think the first thing is that people need to find the facts first. And that goes both ways. I think there's a lot of assumptions that guys have been making that are on live about the PGA tour, that it's just kind of clickbait media stuff. And it's the same thing with the tour about live. Some of the arguments that we made a year ago or no longer valid and I think there's been a change in attitude especially from a lot of the top guys where I think that we're more accepting of them at some point getting world ranking points points, just given the fact of like, hey, a World Ranking system should be the best players in the world.

And it's even hard for me to accept that, because it's like for me, my focus is the four majors. Like, if there's anything that gives up my place in a major, like, I won't do it. Like, that's just dead set in stone. I want to play with the best competition it is. And I think going forward for us, we need to make sure that the pipeline of young guys

that we don't lose that. And I think we're doing a good job with some of the changes of PJ tour you or what is it, roughly the top five guys will get some starts on tour. We're basically giving direct access as a where before it used to be informal. And when it comes to what we need to do going forward,

it's a tricky line to kind of dance with because purses are going up, which is great. More money for everybody. Golf has been in a boom coming out of COVID. There's more people playing golf now than there have been in the last 10 years. I mean, that's just what's been proven to us. And I think the problem that I wrestle with a lot

is that we need to do what's best for our top players, but we also need to do what's best for our partners. And at some point in time, we're if we're gonna start asking companies for $25 million a week, eventually they're gonna go, hey, we need an ROI of this. And I think, our guys have been doing an amazing job

of our purchase keep going. Players are being more vocal about some of the changes, but I think it just took us a long time to finally get everyone in a room and just kind of air out our frustrations if there are already frustrations, changes that we wanted to see changed. You know, the one, like I said, you know, like when you look at the changes between the, of like what we've made with the elevated events, like we kind of really haven't changed

anything if you kind of think about it, like we've kind of like WGCs are going away, but WGCs used to have 15, 20 international players. Like you can't tell me WGCs were good for the PJ tour when that amount of players out of a 72-man field weren't even coming from your own membership. So now if you replace those with elevated events, where they're now having you know whether they are 70 I don't know I don't think any of us really know quite yet if it's 70 50 100 120 guys plus a cut

I don't know we don't know yet. That's you know that's stuff that's gonna be decided I Think the fact that you're now actually having these top events which they've already been having these top events, which they've already been filled with PJ tour players, but now having more and more of these events where you're going to see the top guys play together, like it's only good for us going forward. I just think that for us, we just need to make sure that the pipeline of young guys keeps coming up, and I see the argument of why people are saying, well, hey, if you play an elevated schedule, it doesn't that kind of wreck the pipeline. And it's like, well, not exactly. I mean, this

isn't like a strict 72 man top 72 players on tour. Like no event is like that on tour. So it might be 50 and then there's six or seven guys that come out of a reshuffle category. And then another six or seven guys come out of this category, then you know, maybe some sponsors invites like, that's an option. But there's nothing decided right now and so I think where people get frustrated is that they get one thing stuck in their head you know when it comes to the tour and where it's going and they think that's where it's going like that's just how it's going to be you know oh they're just going towards the top guys, I promise you, this is trying to make what's best not only for our generation of players, but for the next generation going forward. And

we're trying to figure it out. And so that's why I think when people come out and get frustrated, I just try to tell them like go back and look at the facts. Like if you have any questions like if any players do, like go to a player advisory council member, go to your player relations people and find out. And if you have any questions like any players do, like go to a player advisor council member, go to your player relations people and find out. If you don't like the answer, then we'll bring it up in a meeting, like this is, this is still very open. This isn't just solely a top player-only conversation. To go back on the guys that were meeting in Delaware,

yeah, look, I mean, you've got the top 20 players in the world and everyone wants one thing going forward. And if you get the top 20, you know, and that's obviously to make the tour better. And we're still trying to figure that out. Like, there were stuff that we talked about on the room in Delaware that has, that's some stances of change.

Like, this is just, you know, we're now having these conversations whereas before we work having them. So I think, you know, whenever I see some comments from guys who maybe aren't as in the know, I think that's where I just kind of want to like sit down with them and just be like, okay, hey, here's the facts, here's some numbers or, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And I don't have any problem with guys going to live. Like, I have some friends that are playing over there right now like, hey, it's like, it

would be like me telling you how to raise your children. Like, it's not my business. Like, they're your kids. No, it's your career. It's your life. But as a friend, like, just make sure you have the right info. It's all I'm saying. Oh, a lot there. A lot to add back there. I think it seems to me that the, there's not a lot of tour guides that have any problems with guys going to live it's the double-dipping problem of Trying to sue their way back into PGA tour events that has not sat very well with a lot of people. Where do you sit on that? I don't really know. I think I honestly I Wouldn't want them to be able to double dip because the reason why I say I don't know is because I understand some of their arguments but at the same time

You know know, it's because I understand some of their arguments, but at the same time, you know, the way how the tour works is, hey, to be a part of this tour, here's what we ask. And as being a member of this tour, we will set up the best retirement in all of professional sports. You'll have your health care, you'll will provide services throughout the week. And basically, if you don't go by what our rules are then you can't play so As an independent contractor, I understand why some guys are frustrated, but it's like hey you guys are with titleists Well if you're with titleist now like you can't just go up and Go to another company and say hey even though we're actually doing titleists and we're talking about the ball launch

We're actually to talk about Harvard today from this other company. Like, you can't do both. And so that's where I get, and no one's, that's why to me, I kind of wrestle with it because it's like, I think guys who have gone, like, at some point, Mike get world ranking points, I think they will, but that's a very soft, uneducated guess. But it's also, I think they will, but that's a very soft, uneducated guess.

But it's also, you know, to the effect of some of the arguments that the guys have made going, I think, have been more emotional than they've been factual. And again, they're getting paid a lot of money. Like, I get it. I'm okay with it. Like, there's guys who have gone and they've strictly gone for money, and I've got no problem with it whatsoever. I think it's just trying to get some of the guys to kind of not tell just their truth, just tell the truth in general. I don't think that they'll be able to play both.

And I really hope they don't. I just, my whole point of why I'm kind of wish you, Washi, on this answer is, we'll see what happens in court. I really don't know. I'm gonna leave that up to the experts, but if I'm gonna spend 25 weeks out of my year supporting the tour and then you're also gonna go over and play live and you're gonna play

how many times are they playing? They've talked about wanting an off season, well now they're off seasons two months. I mean, they're playing February to November now. You know, whereas we're going to be going January to September, you know, we're going to have three months off solid, and I get it that they'll have one event, you know, one on, a month off. Like, there's just, there's just a lot of things to me that I just have to wrestle with with how they're going about their schedule, their system, and we'll just kind of see how it plays out. I just, where I'm a little worried is that if we change our world, if the world golf ranking system

changes to allow them, like, they won't be happy with what they get. Like, they'll always want more. And so that's why for me, I'm like, I understand your argument, but I have a hard time defending them just because I know that if they now get world ranking points, and we have to change the system to allow them to get world ranking points, and then they're gonna say, well, we deserve more. It's like, well, here comes back the catchphrase from 2022. Can't have your cake and eat it too.

Where I've been very staunch against them getting ODPGR points is where I think this has just been under emphasized in the media in general is a lack of, you know, understanding or stressing how important the qualification aspect of this is, like a closed system that you cannot qualify for over there. You end up with guys that have never made cuts in PGA tour events yet how are we supposed to evaluate what their talent level is? Like if Cam Smith goes out and beats Chase Capka, like what does that mean? We don't know what that means because Chase Capka didn't qualify for that tour, right? And that's where like I have a heart, unless you're talking about what you're saying,

about changing the OWGR system, which I don't know what the, again, it's the majors and the tours, the major tours decision on whether or not they want to do that. The OWGR is not an over-governing body of golf around the world. It's the majors and the tours qualification system for their events, right? So, when the guys say, like, oh, yeah, it's lost its legitimacy. It's like, no, that's what they decided their qualification is going to be for their events. It's you guys that don't want to play in that sandbox. And so I get I lose my my cool when I just hear those guys Why the OWG are points. Yeah. And I and like I said, I do understand some of the arguments of what some of the top guys have said where it's like, well, look, it can't Smith goes out and wins nine live events and is going out and nuking the field like I can understand why if he's all the son ranked 45th in the world because he hasn't met his OWGR requirements, I can understand how

guys would be frustrated by that. But at the same time, they're missing requirements for OWGR. And they knew that when they left. They knew that when they left or when guys went and I still laugh at some of the guys saying like oh, well, you know I'll see you got I'll see in Memphis, you know before they left and I'm like All right, and you know a bunch of us were sitting in the room and watching the TRO hearing and Listening to some of their arguments regarding, you know, why they should be there and One of my favorite ones from the courtroom was actually, you know, why they should be there. And one of my favorite ones from the courtroom was actually,

you know, we're here because these players have earned the right to play in the playoffs, but we're seeking financial damages for them not being able to be there. And then I think one of our lawyers said, haven't these players signed for more money than they've made in their entire careers? What financial damages are you seeking?

You know, you knew this decision when you guys left. And so, and I'm not throwing a, you know, bashing them for saying that, like that's their belief. They think that they can do both. And obviously right now, there's, that's where the courts' fights are. I mean, I don't mean to go, you know, deep into it and bash them for what they're doing. I kind of just want to give context and a background for where things are at.

So this next hearing up in February, I think is going to be, I guess it is February, but this next hearing coming up in a couple of weeks is will be a big one for DP, PJ Tour and Liv. And we'll just see where things go. I mean, like I said, I think in general, Liv has been amazing for us. It's gotten the top 20 sun players to sit together and talk about the tour and professional golf as a whole going forward,

which has not happened probably since maybe happened in the 90s when Greg was trying to do it again. But for us, the guys want to be who are staunch supporters of the PGA tour, we know this system isn't perfect. Will it ever be perfect? Probably not, but we're gonna try our very best. Well, just like I said, just keep finding facts, keep trying to make things better. And this isn't about us and putting dollars in our pocket. These are for, we want our kids

to play on the PGA tour someday if they want to play golf. Yeah, and that's where I did it. Like I can't, it's interesting to hear you guys all talk about it, but where I come from as to as a golf fan, it can be very frustrating for like my golf fan to be kind of drilled down to. Yeah, we'll see how it plays out in court. Like I lose interest pretty dark quick, right?

I like watching competitive golf. If it just becomes a squabble at the top, that's when it gets, you know, I give this example too, is like pick your, I don't know who your favorite football team is, probably the Cowboys. Like imagine if like, Dac Presscott went and go play in like the Saudi football league. Like, how would you take that?

Would you be like, well, you got to understand, like, you know, it's a great financial move form, or would you be pretty upset? That's kind of where I am, at least on this scale, as a golf fan of like, I don't really care about the individual decisions as much as you guys need to get together and make an entertaining golf product, which to your point, you guys have,

that has been a great benefit of this, is I do think the PGA Tour is much better equipped to handle the future, starting with however things look next year than it was before this thing had happened. That being said, I do think it would be fun if we did have some sort of like joint venture, which we'll probably never have. Considering that we have lawsuits going on

around the world between each other, I don't think it's in the foreseeable future, but that being said, if you want entertainment value, I think that would be amazing. And I mean, I'd be game for it, like, look, I don't, like I said, I don't have any problem with any of the guys who've gone. It's like, it's more of like, hey, if you want what's good for golf, like, let's figure it out. But obviously right now, the way how the you know, the rhetoric's going, there couldn't be on polar opposite sides.

All right. Well, this was an hour and we greatly appreciate your time, Will. I think we've, we've saved some stuff to do some more of these in the future because this was highly entertaining hour of chatting with you. So thanks for your time. Best of luck with the continued comeback. And the last two players that have been on this podcast were John Run before Amix and Max Holma before the farmers. So as you go to Phoenix next week, just keep that in mind.

Hell yeah, I like your track record perfect. So thanks again, Wilville, chat soon. Thanks, dude. Be the right club today. Yeah. That's better than most. How about him? That is better than most. Better than most. How about in? That is better than most. Better than most.