No Laying Up - Golf Podcast - NLU Podcast, Episode 658: Trevor Immelman

Episode Date: March 22, 2023

Trevor Immelman returns to the pod to take an early look at the upcoming Masters and also offers some great insights from his win at Augusta in 2008. We also get Trevor's thoughts on the distance debate and how it affects pros, courses, amateur events, manufacturers and more. We also close the pod with some details from Trevor on the recent evolutions in golf TV coverage.  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

I'm going to be the right club today. Yes. That is better than most. That is better than most. Better than most. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to the No Lang Up Podcast. Sully here got an interview coming shortly with our friend Trevor Emelman, talking masters, talking bifurcation, talking CBS. All of the works this interview has brought to you by our friends at Omni. Omni hotels and resorts, they deliver the best modern golf experience from corner to coast. They've got 12 golf destinations with 28 different courses. I know it's

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You can go with, it could be a guys trip, you can go with the family, omnivresorts have pools, world class spas, signature restaurants, awesome hospitality and phenomenal golf. You can go to their website omnihotels.com slash NLU and you can check out the extensive list of golf course architects, classic architects that have designed a lot of their courses, Donald Ross, Bill Koran, Ben Crenshaw, William Flynn, it's really impressive. So book a trip, get out there to tee it up at omnihotels.com slash NLU. Let's get to Trevor Emelman. All right, I've thought a lot about what Scottie Sheffler had to say about the morning before

the final round of the Masters last year. He's in tears. He wasn't sure if he's ready for the moment. What's Sunday morning like before the final round of the 2008 Masters in wherever Trevor M.A. Men is staying? Man, it's a little tense. It's a little tense. I'm not going to lie to you, Sully. You know, if I backtrack a little bit, we had weather delay that came in on Saturday, a couple hours, all the tea time to push pushed back. So, Snetaker and I were in the final group. We played that last hole like on the verge of darkness. I mean, you couldn't have gone another hole. And weirdly enough, both of us stuffed our second shots in the end, birdied the final hole in the third round. So, once I had finished all of the media and all that

kind of stuff, I only left the course at around 9 pm on Saturday night. So I got back to the house that we had rented. You know, my son who was 18 months old at the time was already eating dinner and asleep. You know, I had some dinner. I had spaghetti bolognese. These are just little, this is weird. This is coming all over back to me. I was talking about it, but I had spaghetti bolognese stayed up for a couple more hours and then just crashed. And I slept really well and slept until 8 a.m.

But still, you wake up and you've got all this time now to kill between that and this three o'clock key time. And it's a little tense because you're on edge, you can feel the magnitude and the size of the moment. And you're just trying to keep your mind calm somehow. But it's almost like you're drowning. Like it's like you're just, you're trying to swim so badly,

but it's a battle you're not gonna win. Your mind is just going to take over and all sorts of crazy stuff is going to pop in. And at times, you know, because of like the rhythms and the roller coaster of your thought, at times you're going to feel like, oh yeah, I've got this. I can get this done today. And I can win the masters. And then at other times, you're like, well, what happens if I go out there and shoot 82 and just you know Absolutely blow this thing up and everybody's talking about how I choked and so you know for a number of hours You're running this roller coaster and then you wonder whether you should just go to the golf course and start hitting balls

and Then you're like, okay, maybe that sounds okay Maybe I'll do that and then you think think, oh, but what happens then, if I give extra time, the media is gonna try and grab me again, and I'm gonna have to talk about it. Or what happens if I start hitting for too long and I wear myself out, or all of a sudden, my swing gets out of rhythm.

And then I lose this feel that I've got going this week. So it's chaos. It is absolute chaos in your mind. And really the challenge is to just be able to try and roll with that stuff without getting caught in any of these crazy emotions. I had a rule that week. I actually had my parents staying with me, had my brother and his family staying with me as well. And I had a rule that week. Sorry to all my friends at Golf Channel, but I had a rule, no Golf Channel on TV and no sports pages in the house. I just didn't want to get caught up in all of that stuff. I wanted to just focus on my game, focus on myself, focus on the strategy at hand. So my wife tells me now

it was kind of funny because every time I left the room, then other family members would click on the golf channel or pull out a newspaper and start reading. But thankfully enough, I didn't see any of that stuff. And so you roll through that and then you get to the course and you try as soon as you can to drop into your routine. Something I remember vividly is, you know, we warmed up at the old practice area. You know, I always used to love going down to the left corner and hit some shots that would start a little bit to the right and draw back into that hedge, that big hedge that runs down the left side of the old practice facility. Because I played a fade, so in warm-up I would try and hit numerous draws just to equalize things a little bit. And as I turned around the corner and looked down to the side where

I like to hit, you know, I saw Tiger there and he's red-shirt and I was just like, oh my gosh, I mean this guy, he started already, he knows I like to hit balls there. He knows everything. Don't let anybody try and ever tell you that he's not paying attention, he pays attention to everything, he knows everything, he knows everybody's weak spots. And so he went down the hit balls and I was like wow, I'm gonna have to go too. And went through my balls right down next to him. And we warmed up right next to each other. And that was it. I'm a little relieved to hear all that, to be honest, because it's, well, it's the, you know, the biggest golf term in the world, how in the world do you not picture and start thinking about putting the green jacket on, right? How do you not?

It has to be literally impossible, right? So do you embrace that thought? And if I watch some of the final round back last night, and to me, it seemed like your way of doing that was, it was a windy day. We could talk about that as well. But it seemed like your process was going to be, how can I, you know, maybe if my focus on a shot is normally, let's call it 85%. Now it's going to be, how can I, you know, maybe if my focus on a shot is normally, let's call it 85% now it's going to be like 130. It is going to be like, I have to go through a checklist.

I have to like look at this golf hole. I have to home. I'm thinking about your shot on 13, you know, you're figuring out what the wind is doing. And you took your time on that. Everyone was taking their time that day. And it was like you, you, it felt like when you got into that shot, you were the only person on the planet, right? Is that, is that kind of how you adjusted with the pressure, kept your mind off of the green jacket ceremony? That was really the way I had to play. I was extremely intense with the way I played.

And in a lot of ways, I think that's, it's why I, I'd burnt out so quickly. I like, I was all in there, but I'm talking about from when I was five years old, from when I picked up the game, I was all in anybody that you speak to, could tell you about how I competed as a kid.

I was mega, mega intense. And so that was always really my thing. How do you stop yourself thinking about it? I don't think you can like I touched on earlier and really on that Saturday night, there was a moment there in the time, you know, after dinner before I fell asleep where I 100% said to myself, look, this could be your best shot ever to win one of these. This may be your only shot ever to win one of these. So now that you've acknowledged that, what can you do to put yourself in the best possible position to get that done? You know, that involved taking a look at the forecast, we knew it was going to be extremely windy and difficult. And so what are the strategies for me to be able to navigate the course and then also from a mental standpoint? Okay, is it best thing for me to pay attention

to the leaderboards? Is it best thing for me to focus on where Tiger is and what he's doing or what Snetaker is doing who I'm playing with?. Always it best for me to just say, you know what? I don't care what those guys are doing. 18 holes that I've got to grind it out here. I'm going to worry about myself and then just see what happens at the end. And that was the route I decided to go with. It was mega tricky and you had to take your time. You had to be thoughtful,

as well as always being reactive, but you have to be thoughtful in that moment, because the secret to Augusta National is, okay, over the years as they've changed the course, it has become a bit more of a driving course. There are four or five T-shuts there that are difficult. There's no doubt about it.

Things have narrowed up, It's gotten a little longer, and a bit more demanding off of the teeth than what it was in the 90s, let's say. But it still is a second shot golf course. So when you have these small plateaus that you know are four or five yards by five yards, and it's a tiny little spot that you've got to keep the ball and if you want a makeable birdie put. That's difficult at the best of times and the beauty of a gust of national part of the challenge is you hit from so many uneven lies that it can throw you off to get it into those plateaus. So now you not only have that but you've got winds gusting into the 30s, you know, 30 miles an hour. It's brutally difficult to be able to create the correct trajectory

and spin and control to give yourself some type of decent look for birdie because if you're missing these plateaus then all of a sudden three-part is on. So it was a grind of a day. It was quite something. Was it good for you as a with a two shot lead going to the last round that it was windy that you probably weren't going to get run down from behind? Would you rather it be kind of a slugfest like it ended up being on that day? Or would you rather have been able to, you know, kind of pin your ears back a little bit and go? Yeah, I, you know, I don't want this to sound arrogant in any way, but I think that helped me for a number of reasons.

Number one, I grew up in Cape Town, South Africa, which could quite possibly be the windiest place on Earth. And so, I honed my skills day in and day out, playing in heavy blustery wind. And that's part of the reason why I've always hit down on the ball so much, and been able to fly the ball down. And so I was comfortable navigating that. I knew I could control my ball in those kinds of conditions. And also, you know, back then, I saw myself as one of the better ball strikers on

tour, particularly with ions. And so the tougher the conditions conditions I felt like, you know, the better my chances would be. I, uh, 2008 me could not have pictured, uh, wanting to hear more from you and interviewing you about this. Cause man, a lot of us were not, we did not like what you did to Tiger on that day. A lot of us too did it. The senior college me was tuning into watch Tiger come up you down. We didn't care about. I'm at that point. He's my girlfriend. You know, when I was coming through the junior ranks worldwide and AJGA here in America and US juniors and stuff like that, you know, his legacy had already been made.

And I was like, well, I'm not going to be a junior. I'm not going to be a junior. I'm not going to be a junior. I'm not going to be a junior. I'm not going to be a junior. I'm not going to be a junior. I'm not going to be a junior. I'm not going to be a junior.

I'm not going to be a junior. I'm not going to be a junior. I'm not going to be a junior. I'm not going to be a junior. I'm not going to be a junior. I'm not going to be a junior. I'm not going to be a junior. I'm not going to be a junior. you know when i was coming through the junior ranks worldwide and age a g a here in america and us juniors and stuff like that you know his his legacy had already been made as winning three us juniors then winning three us and and i was like following in the wake of this guy saying okay this is the benchmark and this guy is just insanely good how can how can i find a way to be able to try and compete with him? And then when he turned pro in 96 and won the Masters and very early on, one twice in the

PJ2 and then won the Masters in 97, I'm still an amateur golfer at this point. And I'm going back home to South Africa and I'm telling people, like, you've got to see this guy, Tiger Woods, you've got to see this guy Tiger Woods you've got to see how he plays the game and how good he is and he's going to transform the sport into something that we've never seen before and people looked at me like I was crazy back home in South Africa you know he goes on that tear very very quickly becoming the world's best player right before I turn pro in late 1999. And so I'm looking at this guy like the benchmark. Just less than a decade later, I got a chance to beat him at the biggest tournament in the world. It's mind bending for me as well. Don't you worry

about it? I'm sure, man, it's a lot to talk. I want to talk a little bit with you about how Augusta has evolved over the years as well. But, you know, every golf fan this time of year is trying to handicap the masters in some way. I know you're commenting on it. I'm not asking you to make your picks and things like that. You touched on a little bit in terms of how difficult the approach shots are, but like, how do you, you know, you've actually won here.

You've been here a million times. You've played in 16 masters. I think it is. What are the biggest tests at Augusta? What if people are looking at things like trending of how people are playing? I don't see a lot of similar golf courses to what we're going to see here in a few weeks. So it's really hard to say like, hey, you know, count Rory out because he missed the cut at the players. Like that doesn't seem to make a lot of sense for me. So what is the most important thing,

most important test skills to have and how do you look at how guys are trending heading into the masters? Yeah, I look, I totally agree with you on with your take on the stadium course at Sawgrass. I mean, that's just it's not it's a complete different animal. It is it was always the toughest golf course for me to play. That place drove me nuts because there was just wherever, whenever I would lift my head up off of the ground, I would just see a disaster in front of them. So it absolutely gets to certain players. And some weeks guys can hit it, get lucky there and play great golf. And then other weeks they'll come back, even though they're amazing players like Ernie Elser,

Rory McAurray, they could struggle it. So that's a bit of a weird golf course. A gust of national, totally different in the standpoint of you tend to see the same people play well there. And it's absolutely evolved over the years. Look, when I first played in 1999, that was the first year they brought the second cut in. Before that, it was just all running all over the place into the trees and the pine straw,

which presents its own challenges. Because now the fairway start to narrow because there's no bumpers up there, so to speak. First, I played in 99 as an amateur, like I said, there was the second cut. That presents its own challenges okay maybe now on occasion the ball won't be running as deep into the trees but now when you've got that little bit of extra grass around the ball from a distance control standpoint is this gonna come out quick is it gonna come out with more spin sometimes it's difficult to judge with the overseas rye, how that ball is going to react. And distance control on your approach shot is just

it's priority number one at Augusta National. So it absolutely has evolved because you know like I touched on earlier, back in the 80s and 90s it was swing for the fences off of the tee and then how good you could your control be with your approach shot and then if you did make the mistake who were the best chippers and putters. Was it Ben Crenshaw? Is it all a thawble? Is it Sevy? Is it Gary Player?

Was it an Arnold Palmer who could overpower a course or a Nicholas who could overpower a course or a Nicholas who could overpower a course? So it's changed now. You've got to be a fully rounded player to be able to play well at a gust of national now. There's so many t-shirts that ask questions many more than what I think there were when I first played, when I was watching as a youngster, even the first T-shirt now, it's narrowed down because of that bunker right at around 293,000 or so. So it's pinched in there to probably less than 25 yards. So you know, I have to make the decision,

can you take it over, you're gonna lay up. Two has become a more difficult T-shirt. Five is open. Seven is like single file down that fairway. And you have a fairway that pitches quite heavily from left to right. So now you have to land it in the left half. Otherwise, that ball trickles into the second cut down

the right-hand side. And there's a big tree in your way, and you can't see the green. So seven has gotten tough. Nine has gotten tough, nine has gotten tough, eleven, you've got it's much narrower than what it used to be. Remains to be seen how thirteen is going to play, I can't wait to see, I'm going to go play, they're late at this week, so I'll be able to let you know more. Seventeen has gotten narrow, eighteen is the toughest t-shirt on the whole golf course. There is so little space to be able to curve your ball on 18.

I mean, you have to hit really for the first 200 yards of its flight. This thing needs to go straight. And then it's only allowed to fade a little bit. It asks a lot of questions of you now, that golf course. It absolutely has gotten to a point where there is no faking it from a standpoint of, oh, you can just spray it off of the tee and get away with it. Just not anymore, in my opinion. A lot of stuff in that answer for our distance discussion, which we'll have here shortly.

But I can't wait. I'm always. But one thing, like idiots like me say a lot, and I did not hear you say is, and it's a common I guess thing I think I've said it less in recent years because I don't hear a lot of people like you say it but I didn't hear you say anything about drawing the golf ball. I got to say that's something a lot of people say is you got to be able to draw it at a gust of you don't seem to think that that is a heavy you know a fader is not like eliminated from winning the masters. Not at all not at all all, because as these holds

have been stretched back, some of the dog leg has been taken out of it. I don't see that as a prerequisite at all. And you look at Scottie Schaeffler, how beautifully he played last year. He predominantly goes with that fade and then he puts that crazy follow through on it when he throws the right hand to try and turn it over.

He absolutely has the ability to do that. But he very rarely pulls it out there. The only one that I can think of is number 10 where we see him doing that, to try and sling it around the corner to catch the fast lane. But no, you do not have to only work the ball from right to left to have success there now. Spring is in the air. It's time for you to start thinking about getting out to the golf course, especially walking the golf course.

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They're always taking pictures of the name. I'm guessing that they are also going to WalkerTrolllie's.com to go shop for one of their own. And for a limited time, WalkerCharlie's has a bundle starter package available for 399, which includes the Cape 1.5, a sand and water bottle holder and an umbrella holder. So again, WalkerCharlie's.com today, if you want to walk the course in style, bring your game to a new level for 2023. Let's get back to Trevor. Can you help explain? I think all of us were kind of taken a little off guard last year when Tiger even committed to playing in the masters and then showing up on one and a half legs and being I think T10 or T12 after round one, whatever it was, I don't think there's a lot of places where that can

happen. And I don't want to chalk all of it up to just like course knowledge, right? I mean, at a certain point, there's a lot of diminishing returns as it comes to course knowledge. I mean, at a certain point, there's a lot of diminishing returns as it comes to course knowledge. I mean, somebody like Phil Mickelson in theory has all of the course knowledge possible at Augusta. And guys that have played it 25 times have as bad as much as you can get. But how can that guy show up without having played professional golf?

And I mean, we know his record and all that, but that still was one of the most astonishing accomplishments I've seen in his career. How can you explain his genius around that golf course? I've seen in his career. How can you explain his genius around that golf course? I'm not sure I can. I've been trying to figure this out for two decades. Because it wasn't spectacular. It wasn't like he was hitting towering shots. It was just, you know, again, you would, you can go out there. You know all the right places to miss. And I guess it's just, is it his ability to actually do that and miss in the right places and, and add it up at the, you know what I mean?

It wasn't like he was draining birdies everywhere. It's just like, dude, you added up at the end of the day and he beat a shitload of guys. Yeah, looks like you, you, the way you, you try and understand talent or at least the way I try and understand talent is I think of it as, let's just say, contain is holding water. Okay, so if I'm just like a normal water bottle like this, okay, I'm just a normal water bottle and somebody else may be slightly less and then Rory, Macaroy, maybe three of these water bottles and Scotty Shephler and the rest. Tiger Woods is like a giant 20 gallon drum of talent. It's really only Jack Nicholas that we can compare this guy too.

It is insane, the vastness of talent and skill that he is able to try and recruit or pull from when he's competing. And the crazy part when you have to compete against him is that talent level is not just physical. It's his mental abilities as well. And that revolves around strategy, understanding courses, course management, understanding his strengths and weaknesses. You know, it is incredible. And even his memory, when you talk about Augusta National and how he was able to shoot that round with all of these different injuries that he's had when he pitches up there last year. His memory of different shots that he's hit there and different

shots he's seen other people hit there and putts he's seen other people hit there. The stuff that he is pulling from, oh I've seen this putt, Ben Crenshaw hit this put in 95 when he won it breaks this much instead of that much boom He makes it he's on a completely different level To anybody else and I say this with all due respect to to all of these players, you know that are out there today he's just special He's just special and He's just special. He's just special. And even now, after everything that he's been through,

and I'm talking here right now, 2023, the only thing I worry about is, can this guy play four days in a row, walking, and even five days in a row? You know, I imagine he'll do nine, Tuesday, nine, Wednesday, something like that. So I'll call that one day as 18 holes and then four rounds of the tournament. Can he do that and be able to recover in time physically as he is what the golf courses is the most demanding walk on tour by far. The game, I am like not worried about his game at all.

Not worried about his hands around the green, not worried about his putting because he knows the greens better than anybody. I'm not worried about distance. We've seen enough ball speed. I'm not worried about shot shape, distance control. At all, he still has the ability to win this tournament 47. It's just whether his body is gonna be able to allow him to do it.

A couple of things to, if I to support that, I would say we're not going to Gus National Masters, everybody T's off one. There's not a, you know, he'll have a morning T-time and a late T-time, but it's not like it was at RIV where he's got a, you know, he's playing Thursday afternoon, rolling into Friday morning, that quick recovery time. I was surprised that RIV did it that way. I'd be surprised if the Masters didn't go him Thursday morning and Friday morning, that quick recovery time. I was surprised that Rift did it that way. I'd be surprised if the Masters didn't go him Thursday morning and Friday afternoon, give him a little bit of recovery time in between that. And I think it like I don't think he's going to win, but like I think it's no matter what happens. It's such an interesting storyline.

Now the expectations are so much lower for him. Truly a T20 performance would be nothing short of incredible, right? It gives you a whole another layer of the championship to watch. And I don't know, you guys are we will talk a little bit about coverage, but I feel like the way you guys have handled him or the way you handled him at Riviera was was was great. It was a subtext. It was a subplot that was going on, but it didn't interrupt from the actual, you know, the leaders at the top of the board that was going on. And I think it tees up really, really, really well for you guys to have a very entertaining weekend. For me, though, the drama of this week is going to happen a lot, a lot sooner than Sunday. The champion's dinner drama has been floating

around a little bit. I've been texting you almost weekly. Like, what's going on here? Like, what is going on here? It's like what is the official? Have the live guys gotten invites to the champions dinner? Is that all happening? And what are you anticipating the atmosphere to be like in that room? Well, I'll start off by saying that I have received an invite

to be at the dinner. I posted it on social media. I thought it was kind of cool just so people could get a look at what Scotty Sheffler was going with. Seems like he likes some spicy food so do I. So I'm in for that, looking forward to it. I really cannot comment on if live players have received invites or not. I would imagine so, but the reason I can't comment on it is because I have not spoken to any of them to ask them. And so I would just be speculating on that.

Look, there's absolutely going to be an elephant in the room. There's no doubt about it. The professional game is somewhat fractured right now and has been for quite some time. And so could there be some uncomfortable moments? Absolutely. But for me, and this is what I speak to past champions about when we discuss these kinds of things over the last month or so is, at the end of the day, you know, I put myself in Scotty Sheffler's shoes, and I think, wow, if this was me,

how would I be feeling about this, on what is is is going to be and should be the most special evening of his golfing career. And I would want everybody to be there and I would want everybody to be having a great time and reminiscing and just enjoying themselves and each other's company. And so that's really the thing that I fall back to because he went out and won that tournament in fantastic style. And he is a deserved champion with the run that he's been on over the last 18 months or so. And he is gonna be coming to that event

as the current world number one as well. And so this guy is legit. And he deserves massive amounts of respect from all of us. So that's my opinion. That's what I keep falling back on. It's for him. It's a complicated web, right? Because it is much more of a gust of national in the lawsuits. It has made things extremely complicated for a gust of national. A lot of the players that will be in the room are PGA tour loyal list.

I think you're, you know, you're, you're obviously a commentator on the PGA tour now, but it's not as if the live players are suing you, right? But there are guys in that room that are part of the

live lawsuit or I guess now that live has taken over the lawsuit, right? I think that's what I think is going to be the most important part of the game. So I think that's what I think is going to be the tour now, but it's not as if the live players are suing you, right? But there are guys in that room that are part of the live lawsuit or I guess now that live is taken over the lawsuit, right? That their league is suing the the tour that these guys play on. And it's

not as simple as can we all get along. Like it is very complicated feelings in that regard. There's been a lot of words said a lot going on to for it's all kind of come together in that scene is just going to be quite interesting Phil especially leading the charge on this thing and drafting up the the bylaws of this opposing league and All of the friction that it has caused I I have a feeling they're going to kind of play dumb for yeah Why can't we all get along but it's like well all right you guys are still suingGA tour. You can, I hopefully you guys could see how this is going to cause a little bit of anxiety here. But outside of the champions dinner, and I know you can't speak for a gust of national,

but how do you think, if you were to guess, how do you think they're going to handle the live guys? Are they going to have press conferences? Are they going to put them all in teetimes together? Are they, you know, going to try to create the most dramatic teetimes? What would, what would you expect to happen? What would you do if you were them? That's a brilliant question.

I'm really not sure how they're gonna go about this. A lot of ways I think that's why this is going to be one of the most anticipated masters we've had in a long time. There's gonna be so many layers and storylines from that Monday, you know, as those gates open at 7 or 8 whatever it is and the first patrons get on site, you know, we're going to be waiting to see what are the press conferences, what are the players saying, what types of questions are the media asking them?

So right off the bat on Monday, there's gonna be a lot of news to be made. And then Tuesday afternoon-ish at some point the draw will come out, and then we'll be able to analyze that and see, oh, so they went with this, this and this rather than over here. And we're gonna be able to discuss that. And then, you know,

throughout Tuesday and Wednesday, get more player reaction and more press conferences. And that's going to set the stage beautifully for, you know, once those balls get in the air on Thursday, and the competition actually gets underway to, okay, how is everybody competing? Are certain players more rusty than others? Are certain players not quite as comfortable as others? And there's going to be a lot of analysis around that. So it's going to be a fascinating week and it's going to be I think intense and interesting going to be I think intense and interesting for the whole week from Monday all the way through till we put the green jacket on somebody Sunday evening, which is different to week and a week out. Week and a week out, a lot of people pay no attention Monday to Wednesday, Thursday and Friday

and may pay loose attention and then really knuckle down and start getting into it on the weekend as the champion gets crowned. I don't think that'll be the case at this masters. There's a bit of a narrative that I don't quite buy into in terms of some of the live guys. They're golf game and staying sharp and being able to compete in major championships. championships, right? If you know, playing less of a schedule, less holes when you do play no cut environments, limited fields, not to open up the the PGA tour aspect of that of that conversation. But do you buy into that at all? Are you, because I look at somebody like Dustin Johnson, and I'm like, do that. I can put that can show up and turn it on in any environment and block out all the things we're probably talking about and not even truly not care. But I also look at like how Cam Smith has played over the last six months.

And you know, I mean, he was in the hunt last year against Scottie, Sheffler. And we it's been a long time since we've seen him play any kind of meaningful golf. And it's not been good when he has played. Do you do you think these guys can peek in a week like this without having the the maybe as intense competitive ref leading up to it that some of the tour guys have had? as intense competitive ref leading up to it that some of the tour guys have had. Well players like Cam Smith and Dustin Johnson, absolutely Cam. I mean these are supremely talented players and when you talk about Cam Smith should still be in his prime. Dustin Johnson's still an incredible player but now in his 40s. So they absolutely should. But I do think there is something to be said for reps. I mean, we've heard Tiger talk about reps

for 20 years now. I just need more reps. I've got to get more competitive reps. So we're versed in that. And we're versed in how, if not, I don't want to get into the who's the greatest of all time debates. So if not the greatest player in Tiger Woods, the second greatest player behind Jack Nicklaus will put him as one A, one B, you could decide the order. If that guy that has been so successful thinks that reps are important, then you know, you can convince me on that. then you know you can convince me on that. So I think it is going to be very interesting to see just how sharp these guys are. And to be able to compare them to the guys we've seen on the PGA tour, who now with the advent of the designated events, you know,

you look at Ron, Shephler, Macaroi, Homer, Mara Cower, Terrell Hatson, we can go down the list, we can call out 10 or 15 names there. These guys have been beating each other's brains in since January, week after week, coming down the stretch against each other at tough golf courses in difficult conditions. And you know, it's like that old saying, Iron Shop and Zion, you know, that's really where these guys are. They've been up staring each other in the face, going toe-to-toe. And so competitively and game-wise, they seem extremely sharp. Now, as a guy who likes Cam Smith and have always been a Dustin Johnson fan, sure.

I'm a little concerned out of what I've seen so far in 2023. Cam had that brilliant win down in Australia, but I'll see PGA if I'm not mistaken, which must have been a thrill for him to win down in his home country after the brilliant 2022 he had. But really in 2023, the two of them have been kind of lackluster and you can throw Bryson De Shambo in there as well into that group. And so will these players be able to all of a sudden switch it on when,

you know, they haven't had that many tournament rips? And they're also going to be facing a lot of questions from the media, I'd imagine. Some of the media members who will be at Augusta haven't had that much access to them so far in 2023. So there is going to be a lot going on and it's going to be fascinating to see how they weave their way through that. But I'm going to qualify all of what I just said with this. Is it like Cam Smith or Dustin Johnson talented enough to be able to pull it off in one week? No doubt in my mind. Those guys are incredible golfers. I think the just the concern for me is when, you know, after he won the first live of any played, he was, you know, this is data golf rankings. This is not ODBGR where they're getting

points. He was number two player in the world. And since then, he's fallen pretty, you know, pretty much to like a top 25 player, right? Which obviously is still quite recognizable. But we saw him hover around that 25th ranked player for quite some time before he ascended to into that top five. And now I'm just left wondering was that a hot streak that, you know, he's struggling to struggle to recapture or, you know, or is he just getting his season started? I don't know. A lot of storylines, a lot of storylines, hadn't it?

That's true. Speaking of storylines, some news hit the golf waves last week. A model local rule proposed by the USGA and RNA for elite competitions. Fancy words to say there's bifurcation potentially coming to professional golf. What is your reaction to the model local rule proposal from the USGA and RNA? I'll tell you what, this is a man, it's a horn, it's nest out there. Speaking of ironing, sharpening iron, I have been in the thick of it for over a week here. I'm ready for any kind of discussion you want to have.

You know, I think I just threw a few tweets out there and it is, it's crazy. The difference in opinion and at times, even the vitriol that people come back at you with. It's just like, hey, I'm just trying to ask a few questions to take the temperature of where everybody is at. I'm doing the same thing at my own club in Orlando. Just trying to understand, you know, okay, what does the head pro feel about this? What do the members feel about this? What do the what do the female members think about this? The senior golfers out there. Wow, you know, it's people are fired up. Golf Twitter, which is an amusing place that the best of times is is completely fired up. In a way, I want this to be a bit more of a back and forth discussion because I'm somewhat likely USG in the RNA right now

from a standpoint of, I'm not sure I've made up my final decision. I'm still in the information gathering mode of trying to figure out where is everybody. Well, to that, I'll start my challenge with that. I would say, where is everybody from reading like the reaction, very macroeuroid had some comments last night that we shared in supported bifurcation, the response that I read overwhelmingly is not coming, like shutting it down immediately is not coming from the most informed place,

right? So I appreciate that you're in the information gathering standpoint of this. For me personally, my opinion on this has evolved a lot from I was very much in the, I was reply guy in 2014 saying like let him hit it farther who cares you old fuds like here's what you know blah blah blah who wants to see it rained in that's so stupid like celebrate the athletes and it's like that was maybe we're seeing that scale that graph that goes you know willing this to a pine on opinion and it goes up up up and it's something you know and the the X access is knowledge on that topic. And they say the top is Mount Stupid, where you're, you're, you have 10%

knowledge of it, but you're really willing to opine on it. I caught, we call that Mount Stupid and on the way down, you're like, ooh, I need to like, zoom out and get a full understanding of all of this. And then maybe I'll be able to speak on the back end is kind of where I see this distance debate, right? Because I don't, I'm still getting so many replies from people that are like, I'll just grow the rough up. That's how you solve it. And it's like, man, I've got about 20 different replies to say that's why this does not

address how far the golf ball goes, right? So I'll start with this then. I kind of view this a little bit more in flow chart terms now, but do you think distance is an issue in the game of golf? Not necessarily, because there's a part, and like all my answers, it's kind of long-winded, because normally when I'm on TV, I have to talk in a short space and stuff. So when I'm on a podcast, I let it all out.

So do I think it's an issue not necessarily? I still have a lot of enjoyment out of watching Rory Makaroy hit T-shirts or Scotty Sheffler hit T-shirts and seeing guys being able to bomb it out there. That isn't a skill in and of itself that undoubtedly is aided by the current technology. So is it an issue from that standpoint? No, I enjoy that. Does it affect certain holes on certain golf courses?

I don't think you can keep a straight face and say that it doesn't. You know, we're about to go play in the masters and one of the most iconic holes on the planet has just been lengthened by 40 yards. You know, if you look at the time frame between Tiger Woods winning in 1997 to now when he's going to play in 2023, Augusta National is hundreds of yards longer.

It's an issue from that standpoint. They are certain holes on certain golf courses or certain golf courses as a whole that just haven't been able to keep up because they don't have the footprint big enough to be able to adjust and move with the times. And that's where Gusta National has been brilliant and fortunate and smart and they've been able to keep up with the technological advances. And so it's a bit of a two-pronged answer there. But, you know,

what I'm dead set against, and you know, my thoughts are a bit all over the place, and I'll ramble through a few of them at different times. But what I'm a dead set against is, we cannot just villainize the club manufacturers and ball manufacturers. I do think that we need to understand that at the end of the day, throughout this process, they have been playing within the rules that they were given in order to try and make a profit and sell equipment. And so, you know, the USGA and the RNA need to accept some of that responsibility. And I was glad to see Mike Wands say that, you know, governing is an easy, you know, we're partly to blame for the situation we're in now because it was allowed to get to this point.

And so I'm not really a huge fan of just piling on, you know, a certain aspect of this everybody has been involved to get us to this point. Now, how can we let tempers calm down a little bit and the temperature go down a little bit to where we can thoughtfully and strategically think through this and come up with the best possible scenario to move our game forward for the next 50 years. And just when it comes to professional golfers and people asking professional golfers takes, I also get a little ticked off when journalists or fans jump onto social media and beat up the pros for their opinion. You know, pros are allowed their opinion as well. And you need to acknowledge that the majority of professionals,

at least the ones that we're watching on TV, they are being paid to represent particular brands. And so there are legions as lie there. Those are partnerships that have come together. And then also mentally, people need to understand if you have a professional golfer, the amount of hours that you have invested to get to elite level, to get to this point, to hone your skill is a lot and you sacrificed a lot.

And professional golfers are inherently and unsure and wondering, you know, because you don't have teammates to rely on, it's all up to you, you know. Am I gonna get injured? Am I gonna lose my game? Is my putting gonna start going off? So professional golfers are constantly on edge. So all of a sudden, when people start talking about, oh, we're just gonna change the equipment or roll the ball back, you know. Every hair on the back of their neck stand up

because they're like, well, well, well, well, well, what are you talking about here? I'm at the back of their next standup, because they're like, well, what are you talking about here? I'm at the top of the game. I've worked my butt off to get to this point. Now you want to change this on me. And so, you know, the guys understandably can get a little irritable. And that's what I talk about.

You know, how can we all come together and really put our minds to this, to make sure that we are doing the right thing. And if we go ahead and do this, that we do it properly. Because 5% you know, we have so many answers that we still need to be given with the 5%. First of all, there's a part of me that thinks, if this comes into effect in 2026, the players, whether it's the guys on tour now, the kids coming through college

or the junior golfers around the world that turn pro and don't come through the US collegiate system, they're probably gonna make up that 5% in the next three or four years, just through the way the training is now, and the way these athletes are able to understand their body and trained for fast twitch and driver swings and that kind of muscle recruitment.

So if you think the golf ball is going too far right now in 2023, 5% could possibly still be going too far for you in 2026 and 2027 because athletes are just getting quicker and quicker and quicker and better and better. So are we only going to have one bite at the apple here 5% and then by 2028 we're all going oh no we still can't play the old course you know I'm worried about it doesn't play the same way or Mary and or Shinnokok or some of the others. If we're going to do it, should we should we

roll it back even more? Should we do it one time at 10% or 7.5%? You know, these are the kinds of things that I'm still trying to work my way through to figure out what what the best way is. Also, let's just take the 5% that I'm still trying to work my way through to figure out what the best way is. Also, let's just take the 5% that I've announced right now. And they're measuring that at 127 miles an hour, club head speed, which guys like Makaroi are creeping up to there in the early to mid 120's. I've knocked that far off of it. I guarantee you I could probably

find 10 to 20 collegiate golfers that are up at my, you know, in the late 120's. If I have a 70 mile now of ball speed with my driver or clubhead speed, excuse me, if I have a 70 mile now a clubhead speed with my driver, is it still 10% or does that now go down to, or 5% does it go down to 3% 2% 1% so are the are the players that don't hit it as far are they going to be still affected at that maximum 5. We just don't know if this is on a curve or if it's just like linear straight across 5% for everybody on every shot or even even for Rory McAroy. If he hits a 330 yard drive and he now loses 5%, so he's only hitting at 315. And he's now got 200 into the

green, but it's a much less ball speed to hit the 200 yard shot. Is it still 5% on the 200? Or does that now drop down? We just don't know these things yet. We need much more time to be able to have this discussion with the USGA, with the RNA, with the ball manufacturers to figure out if this is the path we want to go down. Oh, lots of react to there. Lots of react to there. I'd say to that, need more time. That's what the comment periods for, right? We have the next five months that kind of gather that information. This is not a hard set rule. This is the communication of a proposed model local rule. There will be a lot of conversations with those ball manufacturers. And a lot of what

I heard there and I'll just put a pin in sustainability, golf course footprints, and things like that. Because I think that's an enormous part of this that I've not heard a good retort for yet or a good response to yet. But it's absolutely part of the discussion. A lot of what you said there, it sounds like just pro golfers being uncomfortable with change, right?

Because the ball is currently regulated, right? There's, you know, there's tons of testing that go into the golf ball. It is regulated at a certain swing speed now. And what they've proposed is like, look, all right, the fastest guy on tour doesn't average 127, right? So let's just, you know, for, let's reductive for the sake of argument. Let's say, all right, even the fastest swing on tour on average,

it's just not going to go more than 320 in the air now. Okay, let's work back to that standpoint, right? And the way I understand the science, and we got, I'm not an R&D specialist or an engineer or any of that, I would think it would apply relatively uniformly in terms of how that ball is gonna fly on remaining shots. Now, that's a lot of engineering

that's gonna go into that. And that's where, like, yes, is it messy for the equipment companies? Sure, like it is. It's not, you know, it's not a clean breakaway. Should have gotten to this point. No, I mean, I just watched a video from 1997 on the US open people talk pre-provy one days, people talking about concerns about equipment and the ball going too far and holes becoming obsolete. Like it's been a problem for quite some time. And there's a lot of, is now the time,

is now the time? No, the answer would have been a long time ago would have been the time. But that doesn't mean that nothing should be done now is my opinion on it. And again, it's the 18-hole golf courses that are developed now are 33% bigger, acreage-wise, than the courses develop between 1900 and 1980.

There's enormous footprints. And then you get into a whole level of discussion of, you know, these are findings that come from the USGA is hitting distance leads to reduction in the variety, length, and creativity of shots needed on golf courses. This is what Rory spoke to as well about. It becoming a driver's short iron type of test. I think I saw stats that up to 70% I think of approach shots on par fours on the PJ tour are inside of 170 yards, which if you're looking for more ways for

guys to separate themselves, they're more likely to separate from the 190 range than they are from 150. That's just that's just math and all of that. So again, there's a ton of different angles to take into it. And I guess I'm just a little more surprised that I understand relationships with players and equipment companies. We have a relationship with an equipment company that is as they're opinion on the on the bifurcation and rollback as well. But I look at Joach John Rom and Justin Thomas and Sam Burns that have made comments that are not in support of this. And I want to scream, you know, this is going to be good for you guys. I really, really do think it is.

I think the top players and Rory said this, the top players are going to have a better opportunity to separate themselves when they with this rollback technology. And I guess I would say to you too, as well, I enjoy watching long drives as well. I do. And I think a 3 10 long drive can be a long drive, right? I'm sorry, I do not know the difference. And I do this for a living when I watch Rory hit a T-shirt, I can't tell you that landed 335 or that landed 310. I'm amazed when I see it going the air and fly and go high

and do all the things that it does, I think that's definitely 1 million percent still gonna be there for golf fans to go to tournaments and watch it. It's I don't want to be shrugging off 310 yard drives anymore because I can hit a 310 I could hit a 310 in the right conditions and I'm not I'm not impressed with the work I've put in to athletically and all these things right. There's just so many factors that have contributed to that.

So there's a million different tentacles to this and ways you can go. Like I think like I think a rollback for everyone would probably be best. But I also ran a poll on that and 14% of our audience hardcore golf feds were in support of that. So it's like, okay, well, and you know, the USDA has heard that feedback and said, like, all right, we're not touching the amateur game, but they've reached the conclusion that something needs done on distance for They list, you know, five different reasons as of two years ago. Here's exactly why here's what is happening. Here's what's going on with chemicals and land and real estate costs are not going down and You know, the why now crowd has kind of bade themselves in the recent success of golf and ignoring the decades long, the decade-long trend really going into COVID. Golf course closure is going up and golf participation going down by a lot.

I do also think that it would be important for us to acknowledge when we talk about a footprint and what takes place at the largest champion chips around the world, you know, that has grown too though. You know, if you have to compare a PGA championship or a US open, you know, that footprint has grown dramatically when you start to look at the merchandise centers they're putting in the media centers. I mean, everything has grown. And so, I think you got to keep that in mind as well from the sustainability aspect. Yes, but I would say also, you know,

putting T-boxes across roads and at the edges of properties increases the footprint on top of increasing the footprint. And that's where like, I do get a lot of the feedback. It's like, hey, this is .01% of golfers at .1% of golf courses around the world, right? In theory, yes, but like professional golf is played in other places outside of the PGA tour. There are elite amateur competitions

and elite professional competitions in all corners of the planet, right? That's why I wanna say that to people that are like, I just grow the rough up. It's like, all right, you know, pick up the phone and call Argentina and be like, hey, all the qualifiers for the Latin America championship need to have rough of this length.

And like, go try to have that conversation with every superintendent around the world. And that's when you, that's when you start to realize, like, we're all playing with this, we all play equipment under the same rules. And that's something you can regulate, right? You cannot regulate rough height. You cannot regulate growing conditions all over the place.

You cannot regulate where people put teas and all different golf courses. It's you can't even, you, you, you threw out a great, a great point of like, what if we, you know, challenged people to play farther up teas? I forget exactly how you were on Twitter. I was like, the USDA did that. They, they, they ran a whole play at forward campaign. The Iran commercials on there. And like human behavior just doesn't work in that way.

And that's where I ultimately land on. And again, I can go way deeper on this that I don't think this is. So they say if the recreational golfer is forced to play a ball that doesn't travel as far, do you think that would be more or less apt to then say, OK, well, if I was playing the 2023 golf ball at 7,000 yards, the equivalent would

be to play a 5% rolled back ball and move up a set or two of T's. And so would they be more apt to do that rather than just get a player forward campaign and go, what are you talking about? This ball feels great. When I strike one four times around, it goes 300 yards, dead down the middle,

and I feel like I can play from the tips. And so here we go. Do you think that people's mindset would start to switch because it's almost forced or no? I don't know. I don't know the answer to that. I want to say no. I just I don't think that's the way human brain works. People like I said, people don't like change, right? They don't like I don't I don't even necessarily want change for myself to I enjoy hitting the golf ball the way that I do But I also I think it's going to be like the messiest for ironically.

I'm pretty pro for this and I think it's going to be messiest for my level of player, the guy that plays, you know, 90% casual golf, but 10% competitive golf. Like I don't know what the golf ball is going to be like in some of the, you know, mid-AM competitions that I go to and things like that. US Open Qualifiers that I do, like, how's that going to work? That's where it gets messier for me, but to say, again, I, way I asked you, the reason I asked earlier, it was like, is distance an issue? It's like, if the answer is yes, then something has to be done at some point, and I don't know how you can read any of the USGA reports,

which are dense and difficult to get through. Like, I get, not everyone does the, you know, I'm not saying about this to you, but a lot of like, the audience does not go and research that in their free time, I understand that, but I, you know, I'm not saying about this to you, but a lot of like the audience does not go and research that in their free time. I understand that, but I don't know how you read that and think that something doesn't have to be done at some point.

If distance is going up by eight yards a decade, you literally can't do that forever, right? And whether that's, and they say that in the report, they say whether it's technology, athleticism, height, any of the things, whatever it is, this can't happen forever, because this is for these exact reasons. And so then it becomes, what are the solutions?

And this is what they've come up with. And I don't, I'm at least curious to see how this one goes. Yeah, for sure, just sprung to my mind now, Gary player, he warned a lot of people about this many years ago when he was saying, there's going to be guys coming out, he hitting at 350, hitting it close to 400. And we are starting to see that now, and now the decision is starting to be made from a rollback standpoint.

When I watch the open at San Andrews, the 150th open and players get to a whole like the fourth hole, which used to be a very intimidating t-shirt because you have that mound of rough that sits on the left hand side that you need about 280 yards to get over now. And then you have all those bunkers down the right that is just like a chip out if you even can get in there and hit it. And so it's like a one shot penalty. Or you could go way left on that opposing fairway. And so you had these choices as a golfer.

Are you able to get that 280, skip it through the rough? Does the ball get caught on that mound and you've got an awkward lie? Or are you trying to squeeze it into this 15, 18 yard wide piece between the mound and the bunkers? When I see players play the fourth hole now and none of that is in the equation, they're just heading to like 120 yard wide zone, past that mound of rough. Does that bother me and concern me? You know, I don't lose sleep over it, but I would love trying to win the oldest championship in the game for players to be asked particular questions on certain shots. And you know, from that standpoint, they're absolutely our concerns.

And like I said, I'm still sort of baking this in my mind. Would I like to see something happen and for us to have a readjustment or a reset? Yeah, I can go with you on that 100%. But am I full by vacation? I just, I can't get there yet. Now, I'm willing to be spoken out of this. And like I said, I'm gathering as much information as I can, but I'm just not full by vacation. And I can't buy into the argument of just yet, I can't buy into the, well, in college they use, you know, I say aluminium, you say bats, and then they go to wood and stuff like that. And I'm like, okay, okay, thoughtful about this, because the last couple of rule changes with equipment,

I don't know about it. I mean, the groove change was an absolute waste of time. A complete waste of time. I would argue for the fact that it made the game easier for us as professionals, because we did not have to question anymore whether we were gonna get a flyer out of the rough or not. We were going to get a flyer.

In the old days with box grooves or square grooves, every now and then you would hit one that would come out spinning like it was in the fairway. And so when you were in the rough, you were like, man, is this going to come out soft? Or am I going to get the jump or what's the deal? Whereas once they changed the grooves, it became so easy to judge what was gonna happen. So that was a complete waste making these club companies do that. The long putter rule, we made this rule to stop people using long putters,

people still use long putters. Some are telling us they're anchoring and then the questions are out there, are they touching, are they not touching? You've still got an arm lock, which is some sort of anchoring, but okay, you're moving the whole putter. It's just like, to me, they haven't been clean cut and solid changes that have rarely made a difference.

So if we're rarely going to do this, and we're going to drill down for the betterment of our sport and the sustainability of our sport, let's make sure we're doing appropriately and properly. That's what I want to get to. And I just hope we can find a way to do the same thing for everybody. I just, I just, a man, I can't get there on bifurcation right now.

And I know the world is, it's kind of like the scene from back to the future was like, where he plays the guitar and the crowd is just in complete shock. And you know, and he says, Barty McFly says, yeah, well, you're, you know, you guys aren't ready for that yet, but your kids are good to love it.

It's kind of my way of saying, I don't think the golf road is ready for rollback, but it's secretly people would love it, whether or not they, like again, mentally they're not going to get there. But like you said, moving up a set of teas and playing in a tighter footprint makes all the sense in the world. And people, all it all, not all distance has done, but what distance has done is encourage people to play from farther back. Shots go farther offline. Golf is just played in a bigger you just look at Cones and dispersion patterns of amateur golf any golfer. It's a different ball game

You know from a different set of teas and different equipment right and if No one said we were rolling anything back and they just started playing equipment that was rolled back I think people would have just very quickly, but it's just a mental hurdle to get over and I think that it, again, it's just, it's not about taking advantages away from anyone. It's not about not rewarding guys that have speed or have, have chased distance or have made it's a part of their game. It's just simply about the scale of how far the ball goes, right? So I can, I don't know if bifurcation is the best answer. I really don't. I, I, I am

for it though based on how strong the sentiment is amongst Amara golfers that they don't want to roll back. Because like I said, you can go down a million, a million tentacles, but I think we're going to end up at something has to happen at some point, right? And whether it's now or in five years, that's where it's like, okay, well, what do we do? Bif by vacations the easiest one to get done now? But also, you know, some more clarity from the USJ and RNA on things that could maybe put professional golfers minds at ease. Because, you know, are we rolling this ball back a certain amount of percent tinge points?

And then still gonna play the US open at 7,800 yards with 7800 yards with 530 on par fours. If I'm a pro golfer in my peak right now, I'm going, no thanks. I don't want to be doing that. Come out and say, look, we would like to get to a point in 2026 where we play the US Open at 7200 or something like that. You're making me ride for theGA harder than I want to do. But I think again, that's what the comment period is for, right? I would, I would encourage Tor Pros to call Scott Langley, who is in the Jason Gore role

with the USGA and talk about that. And I think the USGA needs to be out at tour events. They need to be talking to guys. I, I have a feeling I really do. The more information John Rom gets, the more information Justin Thomas gets, the more information that Sam Burns gets. I'll leave Bryce now to this because I don't think he's really capable of changing his mind. But the more information they get, the more they're going to at least start to see and understand why this is happening. I think it's too reductive to brush it off as these

old fudds have no clue what's going on in golf and are trying to regulate it, which is some of the the most frustrating commentary I've seen from the show. It's a stale take. It's completely a stale take. I think we all need to get to a point to where we understand that we're trying to work together for the betterment of the sport. And how can we find a way that includes absolutely everybody at every level to be able to be in an even better position. If you think we're in a great position right now, if your opinion is that we are in a great position right now, and I think the game of golf isn't a great position right now, I really do. But how can we find a way to make sure that it's better than what it is in 50 years time?

That should be all of our common goal. That's what I'm here for. You know, I love the sport. The sport has given me more than I could ever have imagined. I'm at a point in my life now where I'm trying to find little ways to be able to, you know, give back some of what I was able to extrapolate out. And so what I mean by that is make sure that we continue to grow it and make it better and better and better for people that are coming, you know, our kids, kids, kids. I'm complete agreement there, and that's where I end up at, like I cannot foresee a world where golf taking up

more land makes it is better in 50 years, right? I really can't. And I'm not, I truly don't even mean that from a sustainability standpoint. I mean that from an economical standpoint of again the larger the footprint the more expensive it is to run a golf course the more expensive it is to buy the land. The the more expensive that's going to get passed down to your green fees unless you have some benefactor like that's that's kind of the, the, you know, that end of the flow chart always ends there for me, right? And I think there's a lot of things going on in golf

that are great. Part three courses, smaller footprint golf courses that are simple and fun. And I think that there's a lot more future in that. And I want to encourage more of that. But also, 18-oh courses don't need to be on the largest possible foot prints is where I've yeah, I mean I have one I have one of the best small courses in the world in my opinion, you know, a mile and a half from my house with winter park nine. I mean it is an absolute gem of a nine hole golf course right in the heart of winter park. That is is short and It could probably do with a golf ball that is rolled back and that's also where you know It'll be interesting to see with the way that they have said they were very very smart with the way that they set up the MLR I guess what they're calling it could win to park nine just go hey if you come play here you play this golf ball You play the roll back ball, you know There's many clubs that that may just want to do that to be able to bring their course back into

You know, I don't want to sound like an old funny dutty, you know, it's not fun to be on this block. It's not It's not It's 43 old or whatever I do it right now, But to be able to just bring their course back to something similar to the way it was seen when it was originally designed, you know, this whole should be a drive and a six-iron, not a drive and a sandwich. I totally understand and hear all of that. I can go there with you.

I think just one final point on this is also I don't think people in the public have appreciation for how far this has seeped into competitive amateur golf. I mean, I play in a small mid-AM event that has had to add T's on a 98 acre golf course. They try to find T's in the most random spots to just add a little bit of length here in there just to kind of introduce them for a mid-AM. For a mid-AM tournament. So it's not, again, I don't think it's 0.1% of golf courses that some people like to think. I do just want to say this part, though, for any of the listeners out there that at times get irritable with professional delphys. Please, please, please do not discount. Please, please, please do not discount the work ethic, the time investment, the time sacrifice, that these people have put into getting to this level.

It is not purely the equipment that is making them hit it that far. These are unbelievable, hand-eye coordinated athletes that are able to generate incredible speed. It's sort of been this meld together to where we're seeing what we're seeing now. But these are finally tuned athletes for the most part. The guys have invested a lot of time to be able to generate that kind of power. So to that, I'd say I think those players are going to get rewarded even more again. I agree with you on that.

I agree with you on that totally. I think the best players are going to be able to separate themselves more and more. It's just logical that the further you get away from the whole, the average proximity gets greater. And so then the better golfer you are, you're able to have more of a space to be able to separate yourself. Imagine. That's where I think it, if I could sum it up, you know, again, a very complicated topic. It's that no one is trying to take speed out of the game, right?

No one is limiting how fast you can swing the club. We're not changing the driver's heads. We're not changing the style of play. We can have a whole separate conversation about that, about it's simply the scale at which the ball goes, once it's in the air. And it is, it's gonna be messy. That's it, I mean. I'm sure, while I'm here also,

growing the rough, please, please people, it makes golf so boring. Yes. When you're not able to show your skill set because all of a sudden in five and six inch rough, it doesn't matter whether you're an 18-handy capper or Rory McAroy, you've got the same hackout shot just to try and advance it near the green.

It doesn't allow for any shot making any skill. It's just, and also to that matter, it hurts the shorter hitters. Because when you start to get fairways, you know, for me, it's at about 22, 23 yards or less, when you get to that point, you could be Fred Funk and you're still going to miss fairways. Because the fairways aren't going to be mush. There's going to be some kind of bounce and roll. So now that 22 yard fairways turning into a 15 yard fairway, even Fred Funk is going to miss a handful of those, except he's stuck you know a hundred yards behind Rory McAroy now. So it absolutely hurts the shorter header. We need to eradicate that kind of thinking

from our thought process on this. Long, rough is not the answer. We handshake meme on that one. We are on the same side of that one, Trevor. So listen, I'm not gonna sit here and take all the credit for this. I'm not, please don't let me do that Trevor. Please don't say that.

I don't want any credit for any of this. OK, please. But gosh, it seems like things have evolved at CBS over the over recent months and years. I want you to kind of just can you take me inside the room, meeting wise, schedule wise, planning wise for. Well, it seemed like you guys got together the offseason and decided things were going to be done a little bit differently in golf television coverage. And you guys came out absolutely banging this year. What can you tell us about kind of the evolution of golf coverage on CBS as part?

Well, it sure has been a lot of fun. You know, whether I'm the right person or not to be able to speak about the evolution, I'm probably not because I've only been working for CBS for three or four years and I've only been in this lead analyst role for the West Coast swing. So I'm the rookie on the team really. And so I'm not really in the best position to be able to speak on, you know, the changes over the last decade or so. But I can talk about now and what is going on now. And you know, what happened in the off season is we have great leadership. There's no doubt about it. We have a fantastic leadership from a standpoint of our lead producer, Seller Shy, and our director Steve Milton, these are people that love the game. Number one, first and foremost,

you talk about sellers, he's a great player and has been throughout his life anyway. So he understands the game. And then, you know, we have tremendous buses back in New York that give us, give these people the producer and director, the leeway and the freedom to be able to try some things out and figure out what works best for CBS sports. And so it has been a tremendous amount of fun for me. Like, I thoroughly enjoyed the West Coast.

Was I extremely nervous? Absolutely. the West Coast. Was I extremely nervous? Absolutely. Do I have a keen understanding of how great of a position I'm in as lead analyst as CBS, 100%, this has actually been a handful of guys that have been able to sit in that chair and have that voice. So I'm very well aware of the magnitude of that. the magnitude of that. But, you know, we love what we do. We have a great team top to bottom in front of the camera, behind the camera, everybody in the compound hundreds of people that come to work pumped up ready to go, competitive, trying to put the best product possible out there.

And so we have numerous group chats of people that are watching coverage weekend and week out, talking about things they like, things they don't like, adjustments that could be made, and we're just always trying to get better. And we're always listening to everybody's opinions, whether it be you guys that know laying up or other people are the fans that don't listen to podcasts that only tune in for golf from three to six on the weekends, that have no clue what you guys are talking about.

And they've been watching golf for 50 years, just one way, happy to do it. And so, you know, you try and take an opinion from the full spectrum and work within that framework to just keep getting better and better. But I am like loving my job. And I am extremely thankful to be in this position, to be sitting next to Jim Nat Nance, who I think is not only a legend of a man, but a legendary broadcaster. And, uh, sheesh. I just hope I can find a way to keep everybody fooled

for the next 20 years, so I could stay in that seat. That is my goal, it really is. Well, I will say a lot of your peers speak very highly of your work ethic that's gone into it. And we can see it from communications we've had with you and then you're kind of seeking feedback. And you want to, you obviously take that role very seriously. Last question I have for you is you guys have kind of

innovated and invented this thing, the walk-in talk, right, the CBS stroll or whatever you guys want to call it in terms of interviewing players as they play a whole. Do you get a sense it again? This was a takeaway I've had from talking to a lot of these guys is they, the light bulb has at least gone off to some extent in terms of the the role they need to play in the entertainment product of golf and wanting to entertain golf fans. Do you get a sense of of that kind of urgency or that kind of willingness from these players is are people lining up now to go do that walk and talk and and things that. And what are other ways you can potentially see that innovating in the weeks and months and years?

Yeah, I think it's been a great addition. The technology is fantastic. At times, if wind comes up, you can hear the wind and stuff like that. But like I said, there's a lot of people back in the compound that are working on ways to get even better. But it's been a tremendous success. I don't think there's urgency amongst the players. I wouldn't

have used that word, but there's absolutely willingness to be able to dabble in it, to talk about it, to try and understand it. I think the players are slowly but surely starting to understand that hey, if you have the opportunity to get 10 to 15 minutes of just you on CBS network between three and six on the weekend, which is basically like prime time coverage, it is beyond valuable. I mean, it is something that is so incredible for you and your brand and your partners to where you can just allow people in and enough to where they can

get to know you and you can make fans and you can keep everybody happy, so to speak. For me the way I've gone about it is you know you referenced the homework earlier and the preparation you know I'm a range rat every moment that I can I'm down on the driving range at the tournament I'm at the putting green I'm trying to gather as much information from players, caddies, coaches, agents, all sorts of people to just try and be able to add a layer or two during the broadcast if the moment presents itself. And I think as I've been able to get out there, look, the player still know me from most of them

have, I've competed with not that long ago 2018-2019 and so with my role as the international team captain a lot of guys got to know me better and better and now spending so much time out at the golf course on the range on the putting green. You know when you do that players and caddies start to get more comfortable with you. And they start to understand why you're there. They start to trust you. And at the end of the day, what I keep saying to them and communicating to them is this, look, we can both acknowledge that I'm going to be on TV from three to six every Saturday

and Sunday when CBS does a tournament. And if you're playing well, you're going to be on. So if that's the case, we have two options. You can either give me some information that I can talk about regarding you, or if you don't, I need to at some point say something. So if you don't give me anything, that means I have to make it up. So for me to make it up, there's a couple of things going on. I've been watching you on the range. I've noticed that you've missed 60% of your drivers that you hit to the left. I'm going to have to come up with a reason why.

What are you doing with your swing? Have you changed your routine? Have you changed your driver's shot? Have you changed your driver's head? Have you changed your coach? And so if you don't give me some information, I'm going to have to dive in and figure something out. Because if Jim Nance turns to me and says, gee Trevor, he's Mr. T. Schatzeliff, why is that? I need an answer. And, you know, as I've started to build up more and more trust with these players, they're opening themselves up more to it, understanding that I am not in

that position to hang them out to dry. I'm always going to tell the truth, but I'm not looking to be vindictive or personal in any way. I'm just calling it as I see it. And I need to do that because if I don't do that, I sure as heck know that you guys are going to call me out. And I know that there's going to be people at home that are going to call are gonna call me out so it's just the way it is you know everybody needs to work together in order to put the best possible product every weekend. Like I said, please don't give me credit that I don't need that Trevor but I appreciate that so much. All right, man, we're going to let you go. I always enjoy talking golf with you. Appreciate the insights ahead of the masters and reacting to some recent golf news. And we'll be excited to see you here at Augusta here in a few weeks. Can't believe it's getting this close.

Yeah, I really can't wait one of the best weeks of the year. It's going to be awesome. Thanks, Ken. Try it. Take care. Thanks, Ali. Good luck, club. Be the right club today.

Yes. Be the right club. That is better than most. How about in? That is better than most. Better than most. Yeah. Expect anything different. I expect anything different.