No Laying Up - Golf Podcast - NLU Podcast, Episode 661: Patrick Cantlay

Episode Date: March 31, 2023

With the Masters almost here, Patrick Cantlay returns to the pod to talk about his recent visit to Augusta and the recent changes to the 13th hole as well as some other notable changes ahead of this year's tournament. We also get a sneak peak on what to expect at LACC for this year's US Open. We also get into Patrick's reaction to the recent USGA MLR golf ball announcement and his take on the distance debate in general. We also hear from Patrick about his experience as the Player Director on the PGA Tour's Policy Board and how the tour has reshaped itself over the last year.  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

I'm going to be the right club today. Yes. That is better than most. That is better than most. Better than most. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to the No Laying Up podcast. Sally here got an interview shortly with Patrick Cantlay talking about a lot of things about Augusta distance, the rule, the changes to the PGA tour, all kinds of things. Greatly appreciated Patrick's time. Want to give a shout out as well to our partner Cisco for helping us set up this interview

and as well for providing innovative technology partnerships and investments throughout the game of golf to drive positive change. Cisco is teeing up tomorrow enabling the most connected, inclusive and accessible version of the game yet for players, fans and operators throughout the sport. Without any further delay, let's get to our conversation with Patrick Cantlay. All right, Patrick, what does the week before the masters look like for you? Yeah, for me, it's just kind of a normal week. I mean, I'll be here in Jupiter, and I will practice and play kind of at home. We'll go play medalist a couple times over the weekend. I usually like

to play before headed out to a tournament, and then I'll go up to Augusto Monday. Do you practice and visualize the exact shots that Augusto requires in the weeks leading up to it? I remember a story about Lynn Matisse, we try to find a mound that was similar to the hill on 13 to practice that approach shot. Do you picture the T-shot on 10, trying to get to a back-right pin on 6.

Do you visualize things like that while you're practicing the week before? Not a ton, but I think we know what kind of shots we're going to need to play for each and every venue that we go to. And Augusta has a few shots that's to come out. And so I think making sure you're sharp with your long irons going in there is very important. I think that place demands a lot of approach shots from 150 to 200 or even 225 yards. And, you know, so I'll work a little more in that area, but in general, it's a standard prep.

I remember you said something when we did this podcast a couple years ago about how the way you approach a tournament week is, you know, the, it's once that, once the, the bell goes off, once it's go time, it's all, it, it's already all played out in your head. It's all a function of the preparation you've put into that and whatever happens from that point on kind of happens. I'm paraphrasing kind of how you phrased it. But I'm wondering, is that approach easier or harder or kind of similar when it comes to a major championship of this level?

I think it's very similar. I think you're the totality of all your prep and And so I don't think you're gonna flip a switch and all of a sudden find anything Thursday through Sunday. And, you know, for me, I just know that if I prep the right way and get myself into the right headspace, that, you know, that's the best way for me to give myself a chance at winning golf tournaments. And I don't think majors are too different from that at all.

I understand you've made at least one trip, I believe, up to Augusta in recent weeks, or in this off season. What's your reaction to some of the changes that you've seen? Yeah, well, the biggest change obviously is 13. They redid the seventh green and made it a little softer than it has been, but in general, it's the same.

13 is just a little longer, so I imagine that that second shot gets a lot harder, being 30, 40 yards back, And guys will hit, you know, more drivers. And there's almost not a whole left on the whole golf course that isn't a driver as hard and as far as you can hit it. What is, what do you think about that is the 13th hole improved with the new T box? I'm not sure I'm proved. It's a little different. I would say, you know, it'll be a little harder, which seems to be what they've been going for over the last few years. And I think they'll definitely accomplish that.

Does it change the shot value at all? I mean, do you see it kind of... I heard Scotty Schaeffler describe, look, he doesn't hit a drive... He can't hit a drive around that corner anymore, so it's kind of driver more straight on. It's going to be more long irons, kind of different lies. How do you see the shot value kind of changing out there? Well, I think in general, the golf course is changed to where you basically don't need to shape the golf ball off the tee at all.

They've made a lot of the holes so long, remove the tee boxes so far back that it doesn't really matter if you turn the ball over right to left or hit it left to right. Basically, every hole, a straight drive over 300 yards is really what you're looking for. So I think in that aspect it's changed and is changing and has changed from a golf course probably where you had to curve it more. I remember when I first played it in 2012 as an enemeter, it felt like there were multiple t-shirts where you had to curve it to a golf course where you really

don't need to curve it off the tee at all. Is that just through lengthening? Why would you describe it that you don't maybe don't need to do that as much as maybe maybe you did back in the day? I think it's definitely through lengthening. I think, you know, the fifth hole is a good example. That golf hole used to be a dog leg left that guys hit a lot of three woods on and hit it a little draw out there would, you know, shape the hole really well. You know, if you wanted to hit a driver, you could hit driver.

Although some guys occasionally would leave it out in the right trees and really be dead, or hit it in those bunkers that you've seen so many guys used to be able to play from. And now the holes, you know, 520 yards, dead straight, and they've taken the playability out of those bunkers. The bunkers are basically pitch out bunkers now. And you wouldn't notice, but the bunkers are actually,

I want to say 50 or 60 yards further away from the green than they used to be, because they lengthen the hole so much. And now it's just two hard, hard high shots to the green. Are you, forgive me, because this might very well be a very dumb question. But are you still learning things about Augusta? This is, I believe, your seventh trip, or maybe you've played seven masters. I forget which one it is, but you've played it a lot of times now at this point.

Is there still a lot to learn with it? Or do you think you've kind of, you know, how far along, if you were on scale of zero to 100 of how well you could know Augusta? How far along do you feel like you are? I feel like I'm pretty well along the thing that differentiates that place from other places is they keep changing it every year. And so there are multiple things about the golf course that are different this year compared to last year, which is so different than any other place that we play.

So the fact that they're changing greens yearly and the fact that they're doing work like they've done a lot of work to the fourth grade, even though that green hasn't been totally redone, they've re-changed the edges of those greens to make it softer, because people have, you know, hit some of these poker shots over time, that had raised the edges of the green. It's a golf course where, unless you're playing it all the time, there's always things to learn and relearn, because, like I said, they just redid the whole seventh grade, and it's, you know,

pretty different than it used to be. And even the 18th grade, I mean, it's different. They redid it two or three years ago. And it's a lot different than it used to be, a lot different than it was the first few masters that I play. Take me, all right, the 12th tee shot fascinates me. I want to know kind of what you're, how you approach that shot, what you've learned about that shot over the years of all the data you've kind of collected of practice you approach that shot, what you've learned about that shot over the years of all the data

You've kind of collected a practice rounds hitting that shot over and over again. What's your strategy based on the different positions on 12? I think a lot of it's wind wind related. I think the the less sure you are about the wind the more you try and hit it towards the middle of that green and the more you Probably lower your ball flight and then if we get it in, you know, soft still conditions like after a rain or something, I think it's a birdie hole. I think you can hit it really close and you see guys that play well. They're hit at close to the middle hole locations and to the left hole locations. Can you explain the whole winds swirling in that part of the property phenomenon? Have you it is that your experience there as well? I know that's been a it has that been a myth for a long time or is that the actual reality of the situation and do you have any tricks for how you read the win in that situation? I don't think it's a myth at all. I think it totally happens in there.

It bounces around the trees and finds little alleys to take you know the trees behind the green Can fool you because if you hit it above the tree tops that sit behind the green it will get hit by the wind. But if you hit it below those trees the trees kind of block out some into the wind. But it also it's really tough. It changes a lot on 11, 12, 13, 14. I mean I've played those holes where 13 was downwind and 14 was downwind, which if you go there, it doesn't feel like that can happen, but the wind switches there and it also gusses, so it can make that little area tricky, and I think we've seen that over the years, on 12.

What do you do to the back right pin? What's the number that you are aiming for? What's the what's the play to that pin? I think it's over the right center of the bunker. You know, I think if you over the right center of the bunker. I think if you leave yourself 20, 30 feet on the green, you fit a really nice shot. I just don't think the risk reward is worth it

to try and force it all the way over there. And I say that because not so much of the water, but because if you were to bail out and hit it whole high or pass full high, would you have to at least try to hit it whole high if you're going at that flag stick. If you were to pull at 20 30 feet now all of a sudden you're not in a good spot because of how that green angles. So, you know, a three to the back right hole location is really good.

That's what I feel like I mean I guess it can depend on the wind and whatnot, but it's a situation where it could be a different club. If you're going after the pin, it might be a different club than if you're hitting it towards the center of the green. Yeah, definitely could be a different club. If you're going after the pin, it might be a different club than if you're hitting it towards the center of the green. Yeah, definitely could be. Yeah, that's what I find so interesting about that shot. And I think about it too. Whenever I have a pin that's like on the far right,

and I know I'm not supposed to aim at it, I think about Jordan in 16 about what he told himself about, like trying to, it's got to be so tempting to try to inch it towards that back right pin, but you also got to know, like it probably just takes a different club to get to that pin. I just I find that whole dynamic and that risk assessment interesting and also speaks to why that whole and why left handers have I've had so much success at Augusta like that shot is totally totally different for a lefty.

Yeah, it's way way easier for a left handed player. It's a great little short hole in it. It shows that we don't need all these 220, 240 yard parkouries to be difficult and make us think. How would you at this point in your career assess your major championship performance? Yeah, I don't think I played particularly well. In the majors, I've had some good finishes, but haven't had very many opportunities to win. That's a function of not really having played in that that many.

I've played maybe I want to say five years now at majors. I wouldn't be surprised if I played the next five years of majors a lot better. Is there anything specific that you can point to to be like, all right, this has to change for me. Because if I look at your game, I feel like it should, it should suit major championships really well. Just for how well you get around golf courses and how well you play, you know, away from trouble. I guess I would, there's nothing, there's nothing reckless in your style. I see a lot of guys that with, with PJ tour success that are maybe hot and cold, can fire at pins, can, can really succeed in birdie fest, maybe not convert very

well to major championships, but that's not the sense I get from watching you play weekend and week out. So is there anything you'd point to to say, all right, if I improve this, if I do this, maybe a little bit better or I've learned this, this will help me perform better in major championships. I'm not sure. I think, you know, the more times you get around Augusta, the better off you are. And now I would say with the US open having some anchor sites and the British open always haven't worked that way.

Once you get to see some of those golf courses for the second time, I think that can start to be an advantage. No, I don't think I need to do anything different. Just keep the same approach and you play enough of them. I'm sure I'll have my chances. What's the most uncomfortable shot at a guesstimational? Probably the 12th hole or the 11th, the approach shot into the 11th. It's usually a critical point in the round where you know you have some birdie holes coming

up with 13 and 15. So you want to get through those holes 10, 11, 12 in my opinion. If you can get around them even far every day, you've done really nice work. And you know, those shots on 11 and 12 are uncomfortable just because the risk of war is so much. I know we're talking a lot of masters here, but I would have to admit, you probably haven't looked this far ahead yet, But I'm guessing with your LA ties that you're quite familiar with LACC What's what's your reaction to the US open going there? Because it's a golf course that not a lot of people myself included are not that familiar with what can we expect out of the US open You think this year at LACC? Yeah, I think it'll all come down to set up as US opens usually do about how the golf course will play Set up in weather, you know, usually that time of year, we don't get partly any rain in Southern California,

although this year's been the rainiest I can ever remember. So hopefully it's firm and fast. And if it's firm and fast, the golf course will be very challenging. The par-fives are very gettable. I think there's only two, two par-fives. So, or three par-fives, there's three par-fives.

So, you know, with only three par-fives and really only the first being very gettable, the 13th hold being almost, or the 14th hold being almost unreachable. I think the golf course will definitely hold its own and it's a long golf course, par-70. And, yeah, it should be good. What, how have US open setups evolved in your time playing

in that in that championship? I know there's been a lot of back and forth between a lot of players and the USGA. Maybe there's been some trust lost at different times over the course of that and it feels like they've taken a lot of steps and it feels to me like since 2019 things have been different at the US Open. How have you seen that evolve? Yeah, I think the USGA has been probably the worst at setting up professional golf tournaments in professional golf. You know, they only have one tournament a year and they've historically done a very poor

job at setting up the US open. And you know, they had a stretch there where they didn't pick good venues either. Aaron Hills and Chambers Bay were not good venues. And so the setups were weird for that. They have an obsession with par. And so they're doing everything they can to get it as close to even par as possible. And that doesn't necessarily always produce the best golf tournament. If anything from what I've been told, they've gone away from maybe the old method of having really narrow fairways and extremely penalizing rough.

And if you do that nowadays, and we go play Chinatok and the fairways are 40 yards wide, guys are gonna shoot under par, even when they get the greens unplayable. So I think in the future, I would like to see, maybe more of that return to lots of rough and narrow fairways. But you can't do it like they did at Wingfoot, where they not only made the fairways narrow,

but they moved the fairway lines, so the fairway lines weren't where they usually are. And so the fairways were actually on lots of slope, and so you couldn't really hit the fairways. And then that made hitting fairways impossible, and thus not important. So then you only had to hit it really far. And you saw that with Matt Wolfe and DeShambo playing much better than everybody else. So it's really important that they get it right because it's our national championship. And I think it should be right. So I hope LA Country Club

is a good setup and, you know, I don't see any reason why it shouldn't be. Yeah, I struggle a little bit with how the US Open should be set up in general, right? I don't know what the right answer is in terms of fairway width and rough length. And because of what you said there, wing foot, it just seems like it's a really hard mix to get right when it comes to variables that might be thrown in, wind directions, cross winds, you know, across wind on a 22 yard wide fairway is very different than a no wind on a 22 yard fairway. And the slopes that you're talking about are very, very different. What is, I guess, what is an example of the right balance in your mind?

I think it, it, it, wing foot got towards, hey, this was way too favorable towards bombers. I, I struggled like think of a thick rough setup that was not still not favorable to bombers and it's kind of more neutral, but I'm wondering if you have any, that maybe your top of mind or courses that you could see play that way. We're a bit more neutral. Yeah, I mean, I played Olympic club in 2012 when Web Simpson won. And you could hit those fairways, but the rough was extremely penalizing and the fairway with was really small.

I think Web Simpson was maybe one under or one over. That was, in my opinion, a good US Open setup. It wasn't unfair, but it was very challenging. And, you know, Chinacock could be, if the fairways were narrower, and they didn't get the greens out of control. But I agree, yeah, it's difficult to do, but it's not unattainable. It's definitely attainable. You just have to be really smart about it. And, you know, occasionally the PGA tour has set up some tournaments before where close to even par wins when they get it really firm and maybe some win-blowing and never seem to see the issues

that the US Open has at a PGA tour. What does, obviously, the USGA and RNA have been in the news lately for the announcement of a proposal for a model local rule, essentially, you know, if I'm, you know, summarizing in layman's terms potential for bifurcation between amateur golf and elite level competitions as of January 1st, 2026 is what this proposal would be. My first question in relation to this is kind of what you alluded to there. It seems to me, like not just from what you just said there, but as well as other players is there's some trust level between PGA tour players with the highest level professional golf player golfers, a trust issue potentially with the USGA. Does that, does what you just talked about with some of the issues that come with course setup weigh in at all on something like this model local rule or how you view their approach to that? Do you kind of see what I'm getting at there?

Yeah, I don't think that, you know, PGH or players or even myself, I don't think we're clouded by US Open setups when it comes to this model local rule for the golf ball. You know, I think I try to do my best to be objective and analyze the idea on itself without being, you know, clouded by however I would feel about other things the USGA does.

And I would say most of the guys feel the same. I just don't see really any benefit by putting in this local rule to limit the golf ball. Essentially, it's a golf ball rollback. That's what it is. And it's only affecting PGA tour players. And I think we'd all be hard pressed to find one reason why it would be a benefit to PGA tour players. And I think we'd all be hard pressed to find one reason why it would be a benefit to PGA tour players. Okay, I'm happy to engage you on this on this part of the conversation, right? Because I think I once thought that right. I think it's like, all right, 40 golf courses, like what are we doing this for here, right? Until I, we had Mike one on the show. He talked a lot about a lot of angles. I hadn't really fully thought about in terms of elite level competitions are done in more places than just on the PGA tour. There's a lot of golf tours around

the world. I think there's 33 accredited, 32 or 33 accredited, you know, golf tours around the world. There's US opens, there's US open qualifiers, there's USA amateurs, US mid ams. There's, it permeates pretty far down through the world of golf. So I'm just curious as to why you say it only affects PGA tour players. I'm wondering if, kind of where you're coming from on that one. So only I guess is over generalization. I would say primarily would be more specific.

It primarily affects professional golfers and maybe not PGA tour players, but it primarily affects professional golfers and those wanting to be professional golfers. Yeah, that makes sense. I'm gonna run through a couple of the findings from the 2020 distance report. I just wanna kinda get your reaction to some of these

because I do see a big benefit. I'll give my cards on the table. I do see a benefit in rolling the ball back at the professional level especially. And the first thing that is kind of in there, in there kind of findings is kind of what I love. I'm a golf sick, I'm a golf nut. And what I'd like to, they're finding is increased hitting distance can lead to a reduction

in the variety, length, and creativity of shot types needed on such courses and to holes more often being overpowered by distance as well as to an increased emphasis on the importance of distance at the expense of accuracy and other skills. Is kind of a risk point that they, that they introduce in terms of the ball going too far. So in my opinion, I would like to see more mid-iron test in the game of golf. I think it allows for more separation of the top players. I would think that you would benefit from that. So I'm curious kind of what your reaction is to all of that.

Yeah, I don't think that's true. I think that setup really is the biggest decider and the golf courses that we play is the biggest decider on creativity, or if you're going to play long iron shots or mid iron shots into the greens. I'm definitely going to set aside whether it would benefit me or not. I think this is more about what's the right thing to do for the game. So I don't think that's of any real consequence as far as this conversation is concerned. And it may benefit me, it may not. But I mean, I think we go to a plenty golf courses where creativity is paramount, even with

the equipment that we play with today. I can think of Hilton Head Colonial, a lot of the golf courses that are honestly some of the shorter golf courses, even Pebble Beach, where creativity and shot making, shot shaping is extremely important. And I don't think rolling back the golf ball, 25 yards is going to make shot making more important. You're gonna have to hit more longer irons,

but your longer irons will go shorter. So it should be easier to hit your longer irons closer. Because you have to remember a lot of the problem, how should I say it, when you go to elevation and you're out of a sudden hitting your six iron, like when we played in Mexico City and you can hit your six iron 230 yards, the greens aren't bigger, the holes are just longer.

So it's still really hard to hit it 230 yards. The right number hole high, even though you're coming in with a six iron. So it would ultimately make hitting your seven iron and six iron closer, easier if you made the golf ball go shorter. And at the same time, I don't see these golf courses with the long tee boxes that they put in, all of a sudden eliminating those T's and moving it forward, even if the golf balls go in 20 or 25 yards shorter. So I imagine it'll be even more of a how far can you hit it contest if you did roll the golf ball back. A quick break here to check in with our friends at Rowback. Thrilled to open up my mailbox today

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it out now. Let's get back to Patrick. Where do you stand then on the sustainability of this? Right? Because if we look at distance trends and golf, you know, I've Mark Brody at a study that it's I think it's 8.4 yards per decade is the increased average driving distance on the PGA tour. He attributes 17% of it to various factors of height changes and mo heights and things like that. But it's, you know, it's it's obvious that the distance is trending in one direction, right? And so there's a sustainability factor to this. Mike is, Mike Wands alluded to that pretty heavily in terms of like this is not necessarily about this generation. This is about, you know, your guys' kids as kids and making sure the game is in a good place for them. What would you say to, you know, if the way I see it, we can't keep going back forever.

I mean, there's a few golf courses that can afford to buy a hole from another country club and move a road, of course, referring to a gusset national to create. There's only one second afford to do that. Well, yes. So, you know, again, if we're going to like how, and you know, if we're going to, if we can accept the fact that it does affect more golf courses than just pro golf, what's kind of your reaction to, you know, if the USGA comes out and says, there's a sustainability issue here. What would your argument against that be? I would say that the increase that they're quoting

per decade, 8.4 yards, that's only at the professional level. That's PGA storage. Correct, yes, yes. Yes, PGA storage, right? So that's not across the board for all everyday players. And then I would also say that 8.4 yards has been in conjunction with

equipment improvements. And so we're not seeing any more equipment improvements that are really making guys hit it farther because the test that limits how far equipment can go has been the same for a number of years. And the companies are at the line with both drivers and golf balls. So drivers and golf balls are hitting the golf ball farther now. And we've seen the limits at which professional golfers can actually get diminishing returns for swinging faster and faster. We've seen that with Bryson. When he started getting the golf ball over 190 miles an hour, it got to be so difficult to get the spin lower that he really didn't continue to get advantages hitting it harder than that. So I think we're already at the line.

So it's not like over the next 30 years, 30 years from now, the average increase is going to be 24 yards. I think that's definitely not going to happen. So I think that's a little bit of a false narrative that they're running there. And then on the sustainability side, I've never played a golf course. You know, even the golf course I grew up at Virginia Country Club, I think it's 6,700 yards, where, you know, any of the members said, oh, our golf course is too short. We need to make it longer. So I think it's a problem that they're in search of that isn't really hitting any normal club And they're using the PGA tour players as the reason why they need to make the golf course

I grew up at longer even though the 99% of players that play at that golf course every day don't think that it needs to be longer. So Let me working backwards into this I guess as it relates to you at the PGA tour level What do you think the PGA tour should do or will do as it relates to this proposal? I'm not sure what they will do you know I think right now the game of golf is in a great spot And I think more people are playing than ever with COVID and I think one of the really cool things about our game is You can go play

LA Country Club after this US Open or maybe before this US Open. And you can play the exact same equipment. And if you want, play the exact same teas that we play at the US Open. And you can see exactly how you stand up. You can go to the 18th Hall at Austin Country Club and try to see how close you can get to driving the green like Rory did last week. That is one of the coolest things in our game. And I think this potentially, or it doesn't potentially, this would ruin it. The greatest shots that have ever been hit with driver, all of a sudden you can never get drives ever close to that again.

And the guy who wants to see how they stack up in a pro-amp next to the best players in the world won't be able to do that anymore. I mean there's already guys at the club that I grew up at club champs that hit it farther than I do right now. So I'm gonna go out potentially in a few years time play my home club and have the club champ hit it 40 yards by me. I mean, I don't think that makes golf on TV more exciting. I don't think that makes the fans more engaged with professional golf. And I think ultimately that's a bad thing. But my I don't disagree with the last part of I don't know that it will make it that

much more entertaining. I think for some golf sickos it may, but I don't know for the average 90 plus percent of fans. I don't necessarily think so. But I would make it less for about 90 percent. I would, I do think that for people that are attending, I don't, I think if you watch Cameron Young hit a tee shot and if it lands 300 versus 330, I do this for living. I probably couldn't tell you off the bat, whether a drive-lated 300 or 330, right? So most golf fans also probably could not tell that. And I think you'll still be amazed when you watch this guy hit a rolled back ball.

And I think that if you, the what you're talking about there on, you know, part of what, if I wanted to go play LACC, play the back tease or whatever, if I want to do that, I could play the model local rule too. I could play that ball.

If that's that important to me, if it's that important to the average amateur that they play the same thing as the pro, as I understand it, that will be an option for them as well. If that is the driving force behind why you play golf, and it's a million different flow chart ways, you could end up at saying, I probably at some point something needs to be done.

Why now is a fair question? You know, it's probably should have been done in my opinion 25 years ago before it had gotten to this point. And it's hard. It is, I think the one of the best arguments against doing anything is how hard it is to put the toothpaste back in the tube. And I don't think there is a clean good answer. And yet at the same time, I don't think it's the answer is do nothing

because I think it is. There's a trend that needs to be addressed at some point. And they've flipped me on this in the last few years. I didn't always think this, but I've now just reached this point where it feels like, you know, it's something needs to be done. I don't know if you think any, do you think nothing needs to be done or do you have any other alternative solution that you think could address any of the issues that are outstanding? I don't think anything needs to be done. I think the game golf is in a great spot right now. Like I said, more people are excited about it now than ever.

I don't think that even somebody who wants to play and judge themselves against what they've seen the pros do on TV is ever gonna go play the limited flight ball just for fun at home when they play the other ball all the time out of the year. I think it's potentially bad for, I don't know what they mean by elite competitions, but I can imagine myself as a high school or playing junior golf tournaments,

playing the farther ball. And then, I qualified for the US Amateur when I was, I think, a sophomore in high school. So, would I have to go get new equipment, new drivers, new woods, potentially new irons, then practice with a new golf ball just for the US Amateur when I'm playing all sorts of junior golf tournaments with another set of equipment, that's horrible. That doesn't make people more invested in the game. I think the best thing that can be done is better setups. Like I said, there's certain golf courses, certain setups that are very interesting and challenging and make guys hit all sorts of

different shots. But there's other setups that frankly aren't. What, were they really turned me with this, that part lately is setups that, you know, frankly, are what were they really term you with this that part lately is I don't know how you regulate setups, right? How if you're the USGA in RNA for the Latin America championship and the qualifiers to go into that, how do you regulate it? If you're talking to somebody in Argentina, say, this is how the course should set up kind of for this qualifier. That's where the that's where the distance issue permeates to a level where I don't know if you can address this through setups. Do you know what I mean?

I guess I guess what would really be your problem there? What are you saying the problem with this? Well, you're saying if you can address, you know, and challenge players through the variety of skills through the setup, I don't know how you, I know that the governing bodies can regulate equipment, they already do regulate equipment, but I don't know how they permeate a set up philosophy to all kinds of competitive golf locations all over the world. Right. I guess I'm not even viewing that as that big of a problem currently. I don't think anybody watches or plays a professional golf tournament and says, oh, this golf tournament

didn't have enough skill. That was the differentiating factor. But I do think it's important at the most elite competitions in the world, so the majors and PGA tour events and Ryder cups and Presidents cups for the setup to be a way that doesn't overly favor for one aspect, like we saw at the Wingfoot U.S. Open. But I think in general, most of the U.S. opens, you know, I've probably been okay. It's just you never run into this problem really at the PGA Championship, or that you don't

hear about it really at the Masters, but it happens with the U.S. GA every so many years. So I find it ironic that they're also the ones that are proposing this golf ball, so which is the solve for all of that. A lot of players, most players that have spoken out so far on this are not in favor of it for a lot of the reasons. I think a lot of different reasons, but many of the ones you just shared,

Roy McElroy is one that came out and said that he is in favor of the bifurcation and for a variety of reasons. And I can paraphrase it if you didn't catch that. I'm wondering if you caught those comments or if you had any reaction to to what he had to say about what he thought about the the rollback. I'm not sure exactly what his comments were so I can't really speak to it but I've talked with him a number of times about a few different things and so I'm sure we'll talk about it in

the future. Okay. Switching gears a little bit. I believe ProGolf has gone through a little other turmoil other than just a distance thing over the last couple of years. I'm wondering if you could tell, describe the listers, how you see, how you would define your role. As it relates to the changes we've seen made on the PGA tour and we'll see into the future. How would you define your role in that? Yeah, I would say, you know, just coming onto the board here, just this year, I've only been at one board meeting so far. I would say, I'm still, you know, getting my feet wet

and trying to, you know, do my best to represent PGA to our players on that board. And that's really my goal in taking that position is just trying to represent all the players on tour to the best of my ability and making sure that they're looked after. Can you kind of take me to let's go back to maybe July or maybe even prior to the JP McManus Pro Am meeting that took place. I think July 3rd. I'm just basically trying to go pre Delaware when I believe reading some of your comments from the players championship. You said that was kind of the first time that a plan was even circulating. You know, it wasn't very far necessarily far along at that point, but comparing a moment

prior to that meeting to where we are now, how do you feel? How has your excitement or, I don't know what the exact word is, but let's go with excitement for the future of the PGA tour. How has that evolved around from that time frame? Yeah, I think the PGA Tour has had a lot of challenges over the last two, three years, especially with live being a threat and taking a lot of the players that played on tour or now playing over there. And so they had to really look inward and try and put out the best product that they possibly could. And so I think given all that, I think they've done a great job the last six months,

nine months to try to do their best to revamp it without losing their identity. And I think these new events are gonna be really good. For the tour, they're gonna be really good for fans and good for players as well with the person cre increases and trying to get the best players in the world together playing against each other more than just the four majors. I think it's great for golf and great for the PJ tour and I think the tour will ultimately be stronger because of that.

Some players have, you know, let's call them middle-tier players have spoken out, maybe not agreeing with it. Brian Armer, James Hahn has, and yet some like Peter Monotti has seemed to have done a 180 in terms of what he maybe originally thought versus where he ended up voting when it came time for it. If you were just to make the case, and I know you've probably had these conversations, but if you were to like pretend the audience here is a middle tier player in some way, how would you make the case that this will be a beneficial thing for them? At the end of the day, the PGA tours

always been a meritocracy, and I think it should continue to be a meritocracy as much as possible. The way I would frame it up is, there's no changes to keeping your tour card in this change. So everyone that would have kept their tour card before is going to keep their job, keep their tour card in this change. And so everyone that would have kept their tour card before is gonna keep their job, keep their tour card in this new setup. And if you can crack the top 70,

you know, on the PGA tour in general, that's what it'll be. You can crack the top 70, you're gonna play eight events for $20 million, you know, with no cut. That's a huge carrot to go after. Top 50 on that, right? That's top 50 you're getting into that.

Top 70 keep their card, top 50 in the eight events. Right. No, so like 125 will keep the car. So same as it always has been top 50 will be into all of them. But if you're hot, so if you're one of the top players from a swing or you're on the top 10 of the current season FedEx Cup points list, not otherwise exempt in general the fields are going to run anywhere around 70. So that's where I got that 70 number from. In general, there's going to be the best 70 players on tour at any one point in a lot of these tournaments. And so if you can get in the top half of the playing membership, the full card carrying membership, you're going to be in all these tournaments. And I think to tell someone, you know,

Orion Armor or James Hall in 10 years ago when they were playing on tour, hey, listen, if you can be one of the best players on tour, you're gonna play in $20 million per se and they're gonna be limited field events at some of the best golf courses on tour. You know, when James Hall was winning tournaments, I'm sure he would have said, yes, I'm, yeah,

that sounds great. Has, what, what is that process been like? I, you know, I've gone through a whole myriad of, of how I've thought about it in terms of it feels, it felt like maybe the last fall or last summer was maybe the first time since I've started doing this that it felt like PGA tour players were realizing the control they have over how the PGA tour is run. I'm wondering if you would agree with that. I probably have some follow-ups after that. Yeah, I think, you know how the PGA tour is run. I'm wondering if you would agree with that. I probably have some follow-ups after that. Yeah, I think the PGA tours 501 C6 tax exempt members organization. So the only members of the members organization are the PGA tour players. And so ultimately,

as far as the structures concerned, the PGA tour players ultimately have all the control because they're the only members of the members Association, so yeah, I think it's really important that all the PGA tour members know that you know, I think we've seen Over the last couple years the guys take more of an interest in that respect And it seems to me this is my own editorialization of the of the situation here I'm not don't mean to put words in your mouth, but it comes this. But it seems like to me that the majority, like there's a, let's call it top, however many players in the world, you can cut it off anywhere 15, 20, 30, 40, whatever it be,

probably provide somewhere between 90 to 99% of the value of professional golf. Yet everyone, number past that greatly out numbers, you know, the sum of the number of members greatly out numbers, the number of guys that are driving that value, which in my opinion seems to slow growth possibilities or make this process a little bit maybe more challenging. And it seems like this, what live, you know, everyone's talked about leverage and whatnot. And it's not given PGA tour players leverage over the executive team. It's given top value players a little bit more leverage over the rank and file

members. I'm wondering what your any of your reaction is to any of that. I think in all sports, we see that really a lot of the value is in its stars. And not even, you know, in its, I would say it's not even in, you know, the top 20 stars, it's maybe a predominant not even in, you know, the top 20 stars. It's maybe a predominant amount of the value is in maybe the top handful of stars, maybe top two or three stars. And when Tiger was playing, it was maybe only one star who was carrying all the way. And you know, we all have a huge debt to pay to Tiger because he made the sport so much

bigger than it was. And is the reason why, you know,GH-WR is what it is today. So I think leaning into your stars and trying to get your stars together and shown more is the way forward for any sports organization right now. I was blown away and tried to remind some of the guys that we haven't gone full NBA yet. We haven't changed the All-Star game and made it, you know, Team LeBron versus Team Giannis.

You know, that would be a full lean-in on going towards the stars, erasing, you know, East versus West. And I don't think the PJ tours even close to there, but I do think it's good to get the stars together more because I think ultimately that's what the fans want to see the most. What would you say you've learned in this process? I feel like pretty much all of you have learned something about how the PGA tour operates or I'm sure there's a lot of different things, but something you could teach maybe the audience that they may not know about how the PGA tour operates.

It's a good question. I would say, at least for PGA tour players, I think PGA tour players maybe think that, it's all about the golf or it's all about the PGA tour players, but the underlying thing there is it's a business. And so we have to have business people on our side looking out for the bottom line business-wise. And so if anything, I would say just to other tour players is that at the end of the day, when the business is the strongest,

that's when it will benefit all the PJ tour players the most. And so there's definitely some sense of not wanting to totally only worry about the business and throw out all the history that the Game of Golf has and all the ways that it used to be on tour, not necessarily throwing all those out. And there's a balance to be had there, but ultimately the financials are what make it possible for the PGH order run. And so it's important that that is a healthy situation on tour.

And if I was to, if I was going to be a Twitter egg making the most reductive argument possible, it would be like, wow, pretty convenient. All of a sudden, the PGA tour found all this money to start giving away. Can you help explain where that money comes from? I think I have a visualization of, I'm guessing it's somewhat borrowing from future revenue of TV deals,

and maybe revenue was projected to go like this, and now it's, or purse distributions were projected to go more on an incline and they are maybe flatter potentially with a higher front end. Kind of can you explain the business side of how this ended up working out seemingly so well for 2024 and 2023? Yeah, I think there's a little bit of that. I think when, you know, the PJ tour hasn't had a competitive threat

for, you know, most of its history. And so anytime you have a war for talent, which basically this has been, if you think of the PJ Tour players as the talent, it's like any other industry, you have to compensate your players or your talent more if you don't want them to go somewhere else. So I think some of that's just standard business practice now that there's a competitor in the marketplace. And the other factor that was honestly convenient for the tours that this has been the start of a new TV deal.

And so the numbers from that new TV deal are much higher than the old TV deal. And I think that just kicked in recently. It has seemed to me, granted, there were some people in that meeting in Delaware that subsequently did leave for live, but that meeting really did seem to turn a lot of individuals into somewhat of a team. In some way, people rowing in the right direction when it comes to the entertainment aspects of golf and how that needed to evolve and exactly what all of you guys getting together is going to do to help drive ratings and interest in the sport. How would you rate the excitement

and the buy-in level from those top guys that were there? Today, as we're sitting here talking versus leaving that meeting in August. Yeah, I think a lot of the guys are excited about the future. And I think we're all excited to see what these elevated events are in the future and how they evolve and how they stand out

and stand differently than the regular PGA tour events. And I think it's great to see the guys on tour come together and realize that collectively they're a force and collectively, if they all row in the right direction, it's a lot stronger than if they are all doing their own thing. So the Delaware meeting was extremely important in trying to get all the guys on the same page and get the guys motivated to think about these problems, engage, and then ultimately change their behavior a little bit to get everybody on the same page. And like you said, rowing in the right direction or the same direction. That's an interesting kind of thought. And I hadn't really clicked for me until all this started in terms of the value.

If you guys collectively, everyone going to be benefiting right at the collective value of, you know, if you're all working towards the collective value, through that lens, do you have any ill will of any kind for anyone that did leave for live and, you know, potentially hurt the value of the collective pool of media rights that comes into professional golfers? Through that lens only, are you in any way kind of hurt by that or bothered by any of that? No, not at all. I think everyone has to make the decision for themselves. That's right.

And ultimately, that's above any sort of collective value or collective feelings. I think the right of the individual to do what they want is extremely important. And so if somebody thinks that's the best decision for them, I have zero ill will against them at all. If they think that's going to benefit them the most, then I say they should go do it. How do you foresee the situation in the coming majors? The majors are going to be the time when the live players and the PGA tour players are teaming it up.

And you can answer this either from yourself personally and for how you feel, your peers may feel, are you expecting any awkwardness next week? I'm not. And I don't think there will be any for me personally. I don't think all the guys on tour feel the same. I think there's definitely going to be some awkwardness in general out there between maybe some other guys or even how those guys interact with the tournament or how those guys interact with TV. I'm curious

to see how TV covers them if they cover them exactly the same if they mention it at all. Or you know it's just masters as normal. I would guess that it's just masters as normal. That would be my hope. But yeah, it adds a little more interest having basically two rival tours now all of a sudden coming together and playing some of the same events. We talked briefly about the entertainment aspect of golf and that being at least a part of what you guys have been discussing and working on.

What do you see if you were to just to pick some ways that golf could up its entertainment value, the ways that it could bring the most value and the ways that you guys would benefit from it. What do you think are some ideas or some things maybe you guys as a collective group are working on to kind of up the entertainment aspect of professional golf? I think you try and take the lowest hanging fruit in a situation like that. There's always probably more lofty things that you could do that would be more complicated or more difficult to pull off. But I think just the start with trying to get all the best players against each other

as much as possible is really, you know, maybe the lowest hanging fruit that, you know, does the most for everyone. And so that's what I'm really excited about with these elevated events is that, you know, it just gives more opportunity for the rivalries to come about with guys battling the same guys battling each other down the stretch on Sunday. And, you know, I can, I watched a lot of golf when I was out, you know, 2014 to 2017 and the tournaments that I like watching the most were the biggest tournaments, where the best players were battling each other down the stretch. So hopefully on tour we see a lot more of that. I think as time moves on myself included, I think I did ask you one single question about your back as we're 40 something odd minutes into that.

As time goes along, people tend to forget myself included that you know kind of what still goes into maintaining your back. You told stories on this pod three years ago, I think about kind of the time minds of what it's like to get ready for rounds of golf. Has that evolved any over the years? And if for people that maybe don't have that interview top of mind, can you explain what it's like for you

to prepare for competitive golf? Yeah, I would say, you know, I used to get to the course three hours before and now I've cut that down a little bit. So I've been feeling really good for a number of years now. And so I don't need quite as much time. And I'd say I'm more crossed over into not just trying to stay healthy, but now trying to gain some performance, gain some strength, which I wasn't able to do as much before

when I was basically trying to play catch up with my back. Now I feel like I'm doing a lot of preventative stuff. And so, in general, I feel a lot better than I did three, four, five years ago. And I think that's a result of all the time I spend to try and feel right and try and get ahead of problems so I don't get hurt and have to take time off. Our morning, I used to it at this point. Our morning tee times an issue and our rounds maybe that you don't get to finish and have to come out early and then go back out or do you, you know, see yourself at a disadvantage in any way when those situations arise.

I don't at all. In fact, you know, I almost see it as an advantage because I'm not going to change my schedule before I play. That's always the funny thing for me out on tour is when guys will have a 7 a.m. T-time and they'll get there an hour and a half before and do an abbreviated warm up. But if they had a noon T-time, they'd get there two hours before and do their normal warm up. I find, you know, I'm always going to get there about the same time, about two and a half or two, 15 before, and do the same routine every single time. So when we have an early tea time, and I go into the gym, and the same guys that, you know,

the guys aren't there, that were there at the same time before, the round, the day before, I think to myself that I have an advantage. All right. Last while we'll get you out of here on this, and I don't, this might be news to you, because I don't think you're the biggest social media guy. But Twitter has had a lot of fun with the the DeWalt partnership. And we were just wondering what kind of DIY projects do you have lined up for this year?

Well, I haven't had much time for any DIY projects at home with all the golf season going on. But I'll tell you on the lot better with the tools in my golf bag that I am with my tools at home. So maybe this off season I am with my tools at home. So maybe this offseason I'll get get up to something. All right, well, I'm moving into a new house actually very soon. So I might be I might be messaging you for some tips around the house.

But I'll probably have no help. I'm not going to say that's what I would have thought, but that's kind of what we will have thought. But I appreciate you spending some time with us. Best of luck. I know it's an advance of a very important week on the calendar and we appreciate the time and best of luck next week of the gust. I can't wait to watch. Thanks very much.

Appreciate it. Thanks for having me on. It's going to be the right club. Be the right club today. Yes. That is better than most. How about him? That is better than most.

How about in? That is better than most. Better than most. you