No Laying Up - Golf Podcast - NLU Podcast, Episode 675: Keith Pelley

Episode Date: April 26, 2023

Keith Pelley, CEO of the European Tour, joins the podcast to chat about the recent Sports Resolutions Decision, the strategic alliance between the DP World Tour and the PGA Tour, LIV, OWGR, the future of the DP World Tour, how the last few years have unfolded, and a lot more.  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

I'm going to be the right club today. Yeah! That's better than most. How about in? That is better than most. Better than most. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to the No-Lang Up Podcast. Sully here. Got an interview coming shortly from this morning with Keith Pelley. Keith has been silent for quite some time and recently has been able to speak a little

bit more freely. We get into why that might be. And I threw everything I possibly could think of in terms of all the ongoing and golf in the DP World Tour. And basically all he's been through as commissioner of that tour over the last several years. And I think it'll help shine a lot of light into some decisions they've had to make

and how they've made them, why they've made them. And greatly appreciate it is, candor in this interview. This is brought to you by our friends at Omni. We've been talking a lot about Omni resorts and hotels and how they have 12 golf destinations with 25 courses from coast to coast. We've talked about the resorts, how they have it all. Great golf sophisticated resorts, spa, food, pools,

all that. We've talked about how Omni takes their golf seriously, top architects, continued investments. What we got to talk about, Omni, PGA Frisco, and Fields Ranch. Omni, PGA Frisco opens to the public next month, but it's open for booking now at Omnihotels.com slash golf. The Omni PGA Frisco Resort is one of the most highly anticipated

golf resorts to open and will be suned up to sun down golf. They got a pair of 18-hole top-notch golf courses. There's Fields Ranch East by Gil Hans, which I got a chance to play a few months ago. It's fantastic. Fields Ranch West by Bo Welling. of the I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I.

I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. Center, the ice house beer garden with hitting bays, you're never going to want to leave this place. Plus a brand new 500 room resort with 2300 square feet, four bedroom ranch houses, four pool spa and dining. There's something for everyone here. Book a trip and get out there to tee it up at omnihotels.com slash NLU. Again, that's omnihotels.com slash NLU. Let's get to Keith Pelley. All right, Keith. First question you're willing to talk now that the court ruling is behind you.

Can you paint the picture for what it's been like for you personally from a legal standpoint this last year or so? What are you advised to do? What have you had to participate in and what is that whole process been like? Well, I don't think I've been through anything like it in my 35 years. I've been in the media or sports for 35 years, and I don't think I've been through anything like it. But that's what makes life fun.

New adventures and new opportunities to look at your business differently. So, yeah, I think, Sully, I think at times it's been tricky in terms of it's been tough, as you can well imagine, you've wanted to speak out more than you could. So, you know, now we're having this conversation. So things are changed. We had a real favorable ruling. But at the same time, I think the biggest challenge that we've had, or when you ask me about personally,

and the way I kind of look at it is, is this has been a story that has been really played out in the media. It has been a story that has been really played out in the media, it has been very a provocative story and having been a journalist for so many years and having run newsrooms and run magazines, I totally understand and appreciate how really interesting and lively this story could be. I've also seen the rumors fly and how

you know everybody takes a punt on a story and just hopes that it comes to fruition, which has been challenging to sit back and not actually give people the truth. And then you add social to it, Sally, and then it becomes a whole new thing. Because social is now allowed people to have a voice and to all, you know, in some ways, look at themselves as journalists and as a result to sit back and watch that has been challenging without being able to actually say, wow, this is actually the truth. This is the true story. my boys playing college in the US now, and I went to see him play up in Connecticut. And one of his players, his teammates, said to me, you know, Mr. Pellie, how are you? And I said, well, what do you mean, James? He said, well, how are you? I said, why are you asking?

But thanks for asking. I'm doing just fine. And he said, because you're absolutely really, really getting criticized on social. And I laughed. And I said, that's fine. I said, what are you looking at? And he said, Twitter.

And I said, well, you have to look at Twitter. I look at a lot of Twitter as graffiti with punctuation. I look at the reputable parts of Twitter as something that really is a freedom of speech and a great opportunity to share opinions. But it is sometimes when there has been things that have been set out there, I have thick skin, so I'm totally comfortable with it. But I've always had the philosophy is that everyone that works here at the at the tour, the jersey, the name on the jersey is the same. We all wear the same jersey. We're all the same teammates. So if you, if you praise one of your teammates, you build everybody up, but at the same time,

if you criticize one of your teammates, you criticize the up, but at the same time, if you criticize one of your teammates, you criticize the entire organization. So the only challenge that I've really had in not speaking, you're not talking about, is been what that has meant to our staff. And that's been the only real challenge I've had, uh, sunny in it, other than the fact that there are so many just rumors out there that are just they'll found it. Does that make sense to you? It does, it does. I'm looking forward to kind of cutting through a lot of that stuff because a lot of us

that comment on this are, you know, we're working off the information that we have and yeah. Yeah, I know, yeah, yeah, and it's tough. And I said it and it's tough and because it is such a it's such a story that generates so many passionate opinions and thoughts. And you know, like, you know, I spent last week in the in the player lounging in Japan at the very first, in 51 years, the first time we've ever had a tournament in Japan, which was just unbelievable. But you have to go into the plerial lounge and kind of say, okay, well, that's not factual. That's, this is the way it works.

Here's the real story. But one of the challenges and is been the communication to the members. And that has been a frustration, Sally. And one of the frustrations is that in the communication to the members and the best way to communicate to the members is either through a full player meeting or more importantly, through social through email,

really through email. However, if you send that out, I know this is going to have to send it to the entire membership. So then it ends up very quickly in the media or it ends up very quickly being interpreted in a different way by somebody from LIFT because they're getting those emails as well because they have to get it as well. And so then you're conscious of what you can actually communicate. So I had this conversation with Richie Ramsey, who said, Richie and I spoke for about an hour

in the player lounge. He's a real smart guy with a business degree. I have a ton of time for him. And we sat down and I said, Richie, I said, I know you said that you learned more about the tour from a palm-riginally story. And he said, yeah, yeah, I did. And we then spent an hour and he goes, I totally get it.

Totally understand it. And I said, the good news is, now with the sports resolution hearing behind us and us being able to enforce our rules and regulations created by the members for our members to protect the members, now we can communicate a little bit more. And so I've got a player meeting coming up, a full player meeting at the Betfrey British Masters. I'm gonna start having groups of player meetings

to give them a little bit more information, but it's been tough. It has been. The lack of the ability to communicate is not only frustrated me. It's frustrated our entire communication department and it's frustrated our board because they know the real story, they know everything behind it. But you know, with with so many legal implications pending, you know, the communication was and it was as minimal as possible. And I'll still, you know, I can only talk about certain things, but I can uh, I can, can at least chat now.

You can at least shine some light on the process and what that's all been like. And I think I want to talk about the resolution decision. But I want to first, I want you to, and maybe this is, this is part of the explain it like I'm five part of the, of, of the conversation. But I think a lot of people that follow sports, maybe don't understand the actual role of a commissioner. So I would like, I'm curious, your definition of what your job is, who are you, your mandated to perform blank and you're mandated by blank? How does that, how would you describe your job? Okay. I would describe my job as I work for the members.

Yes. I work for the players. Um, I report directly to the board. The board is predominantly made up of ex players. They are put in position by the tournament committee. The tournament committee decides a lot of the rules and regulations, but they also appoint the board. So the board represents the tournament committee that represents the membership. So at the end, this is an organization run by the members.

So I work for the members. So as a result, you have to look at it and say, your objective is to always act in the best interest of the members. Now, understanding that there are plethora of different types of members, depending upon where you are in the world rankings, what ethnic background you're from, what age you're at, what category you're at, if you've just won three events, or you're just coming out of a Q school, you're coming out of the challenge tour. So, when you have on the main tour, we have three tours, obviously the DP World Tour, which is the main tour.

We have the Challenge Tour, which is our feeder tour into the DP World Tour, and then you have the Legends Tour. And so all three of those represent over 425 members, 286 members this year on the D.P. World Tour. In order to understand them, you have to understand every single little vertical that they're in. And then you have to try to horizontally integrate your strategy to make sure that each vertical is touched. But it's very difficult because you can make one decision and somebody can say, oh, that's fantastic, while it isn't as beneficial to somebody else. So as a members organization, it's really, really difficult to get 100% buy-in on your strategy. And that is what the board is there for.

The board is representing the members. That's why we have independent board members, but the majority of the board, the voting is controlled by the members. Does that make sense? It does. That's where I think, you know, for a long time, I struggled with the connection, right?

Or I would say, you know, I think golf fans where you're sitting, see it, could see it potentially differently of what they think your job is, or Jay Monahan's job is, or any commissioners job is, which is, again, you work for a membership organization, right? So it's not necessarily in your mandate to say like,

hey, we are trying to create the best entertainment product possible. You are trying to do that within the constraints of what you're responsible for, but at the same time, you are responsible for running the membership organization for the members. Yeah, but in order to reach the objective, so when you look at the number one and the number two objective

to the membership, would be price funds and playing opportunities, right? And depending upon where you are, if you're if you're if you've just graduated from the Q school or the challenge tour, you want to maximize your playing opportunities to get to get your playing card, which would maximize your revenue, right? This is their this is their livelihood. And in order to do that, you need a really compelling product. You need an entertainment product. Because that's the only way you're going to drive your revenue. You're going to drive your revenue from, from a media perspective and from a sponsorship side. So it is, it is critical that you have to look at all facets of your business to make sure they're firing on all cylinders in order to generate as much revenue.

But one of the things that as a members organization, which is different than a profit organization, and it's a fundamental difference, is let's say that we wanted to invest in a business. Let's say we like the way you're going with no laying up. We like your podcast, we like your revenue model, we like your merchandise, we like it, and we like to extend it into a number of different platforms, and we would like to invest into no laying up. Let's say that that we wanted to do that. And you were acting completely unreasonable

and asked for an obscene amount of money of some like 20 million to invest in. So let's say the challenge with us doing that, even if we believe there was a good business that could drive profitability down the road, or we could take that revenue and take it from 20 to 100 million, a lot of the players at that particular time, my question and say, okay, I'm 39, I'm 41 years old.

Why are we investing money into another entity that will help five years down the road when I'm not longer playing? So a lot of players have said, I don't want you to have any free cash flow in the bank. I want you to put it all into prize funds and all into generating new tournaments for playing opportunities. So you have to have a phenomenal product in order to drive the revenue to be able to increase your prize funds and increase your playing opportunities.

Yeah. That's the business in a nutshell. And that makes all the sense in the world. I think you just illustrated that point that I was working around to try to make in terms of, you work for the players, right? And what the players want is your job to execute. Now, finding out there is no bottom line summary of what, quote unquote, for the players, right? And what the players want is your job to execute. Now finding out there is no bottom line summary

of what, quote unquote, the players think, right? You're dealing with a million different opinions and a million different stakeholders. And that I see as a huge challenge of your job is to, you know, golfers are golfers. They have a lot of experience with tours. They don't necessarily, I would say, have a worldly business experience

and understand all of the stuff that you have to try to balance to create revenue for them. No, no. And some do. Some want to get deep into it and look at it and say, okay, tell me how it works. Other players are just worrying about making a cut and hitting a five-iron as flush as they can. Right.

It really depends on where you are. Like, as I said, every single player is at a different point of their career. Some are coming near the end of it, some are just beginning. Right? And some have aspirations to get to the PGA tour. Some have, there are players that say, I just want to play here in Europe and have a good career. And if I can finish, you know, a hundred in the in the DP World rankings and make, make four or five hundred

thousand a year, getting up, I'm really happy. So it really depends on where you where you are in the whole ecosystem within within our organization, if that makes sense. So there's been a lot of chat about like, you know, our 10 cards, for example. Like this week in, in Japan, I must have had 15 conversations about those cards, about okay, so tell me exactly where the category is, where is it?

I had a The Corn Fairy, where exactly is, so we get 500,000 to start with. Yes. Now, what happens if we go over and we don't do well? There's a there's a safety net back. So there is so much conversation because there are so many members. There's one one member I talked to this this week. I said, how many of your planes that I'm playing in all of them? Because I'm really getting close to getting into the place where I can potentially get a PGA tour card. And you sit there and you look at it, you go,

over the last seven years, an average of five players have left to go to the PGA tour. So what we've done is formalize a pathway and that has been there all along, but now there's 10. And the members in the Tournament Committee and the board look at it a little bit different because some of the comments have been, well, you're losing your best 10 players.

And I don't look at it like that at all. First of all, I look at it as a members organization. That's what we should be doing is giving them an opportunity to go make as much money as they possibly can. And the 500,000 that is guaranteed on the PGA tour is pretty exciting for them. But I also do then believe that you're building more of the younger players as global stars, and they'll all come back and play.

So the more European tour players that can play globally, they all come back and play. So the more European tour players that can play globally, they will come back and play will be a strength to our tour. And as I've said all along, I believe it is, you know, that pathway, which is one component of our businesses as golf's global tour, is phenomenal for those young members. And it was terrific having the conversations with the players this week in Japan about it. It's really interesting because I think there's again a lot of external factors and a lot of a lot of big picture stuff that goes into the emphasis and the decision on the strategic alliance.

And what you've just again, describe why I kind of wanted to start with how you define your job is through part of your job as commissioner of the DP World Tour, you have given your members access to the the riches that are the PGA tour, which is a spigot of cash that has been pretty outrageous, both in how they're guaranteeing your purses, right? You know, if there's the perception that you're losing your top talent, you were kind of losing it already. As you said, now there's a formal pathway in here and not only as a PGA tour guaranteeing your purses, so you're the risk of losing that talent is

minimal because you know, they're still going to have revenue. And also, your members have a chance to earn that money on the PGA tour. Yeah, but I also believe, I also believe that what we're really unique in and you know, it's a shame. I know you're coming to Italy next week, but it would have been phenomenal for you to come to Kenya and see how that galvanizes an entire nation and how that changes the actual perception of the sport in Kenya. And the big crowds on Saturday watching the local player make a 30-foot putt for Bernie, and the place go absolutely crazy. And then the former prime minister, the former president, cabinet ministers all show up. It was incredible. That's what we do. But when you look at

when you look at a player like, and I was saying this to somebody the other day, the Adrian Moron. So Adrian Moron, you know, he's the highest ranked in the first Polish player at ever playing the Masters, playing our tour, played on on the challenge tour, 2017, 2018, and 2019. And then he came onto our tour. He won the, you finally won in 2022. He won the Irish Open. This year he goes to the Masters. I walk into the clubhouse.

I see a lady wearing a DP World tour shirt and I go, I gotta go over and see her. It's his mother with his dad and then he sits down and you just go, wow, that's what it's all about. And Adrian Moronk will go and play and hopefully he gets a chance to play and is very successful on the PGA tour and through majors. But I guarantee you, Adrian Moronk is coming back to play. Guaranteed.

So the more, so I believe there will be more top players coming back to play over the next five years based on the 10 cards. But we're gonna have to wait and see. We're gonna have to prove that theory out. A quick break here to check in with our friends at course at Roeback Active, where you all know rowback. If you saw the social clip for this interview, which was recording the morning, you'll

know that I throw on a rowback hoodie pretty much every morning. These guys understand quality. There's only one way to describe rowback and that's best fit and best feel. They're off a fresh restock of their Azelia collection, which you saw a lot of that during our master's live shows. Their performance polos are just awesome. They hit different. They're four way stretches.

Next level, the material is moisture wicking to get you through a warm day on the golf course while staying wrinkle free. The collar is nice and crisps. It doesn't bacon on you. Their performance Q zips are a game changer. Nothing beats rocking a rowback Q zip for a nice morning of spring golf. They're soft, stretchy and comfortable. And again, the performance hoodies are the stretchiest softest hoodies in golf. If you want to be comfortable and relaxed on the course, then wear a rowback hoodie and they're great for off the course as well. They're gaining traction big time.

So go to rowback.com, r-h-o-b-a-c-k dot com. Use code NLU to get 20% off your first order through the end of this week. That's r-h-o-b-a-c-k dot com, 20% off polo's, q-zips, hoodies and more with code NLU. Let's get back to Keith Pelley. So again, I think that's a great scene setter for everything that's going on and a lot of stuff I wanted to ask you about, but take us back as well to, I know, with the sports resolution, this decision that came out recently, I think you, I may need you to define that

a little bit for our listeners, but going back even farther than that, when the sanctions began, when the, you know, the first live event happened, what was the decision making process like for you guys leading up into that moment to say, here's what's going to happen if you go and play a live event, here's why and kind of set the scene for the rules and regulations, the DP World Tour, both why, how you guys came to that decision and why it, you just determined that it had to be this way? Well, we had three days on the I had three days on the stand at sports resolutions. And if I could just send you the videotape I'll try to give you a Cole's notes version.

So back when I started to talk to the players, you obviously didn't want anybody to go play and live. But you know, I understood why they wanted to go and play. You know, it's almost like, as one player said to me last week, they were in the right place the right time and they won the lottery, because this is a moment in time that will probably never happen again. And you can imagine some of the players that they were referring to that received, you know, guaranteed easy money to play. There's 48 players lying for 25 million with no cuts and big contracts.

I understood why they went. But at the same time, the number one thing and our number priority was, we have a conflicting tournament release, we have rules and regulations, and as a members organization, these are created by the members for the members to protect the members. And if you can't enforce your rules and regulations, it really becomes problematic in running a business. That's just not our business. It's every business.

And it's every sports business as well. So once the release requests came in, we evaluated them on a case by case basis. We looked at them with our board extensively. It wasn't a unilateral decision that I just made. It was something going, okay. We now have a true and viable competitor in the marketplace in both the Asian tour and live that are playing in our territory,

taking our players not like in the past, but taking them significantly. And they also are pseudo employees in that, you know, they don't have the same type of freedom of speech that everybody else has. So they are now marketing promotional machines for the competitor. And that is understandable based on the fact that some of them own equity. But the only way that equity goes is at the detriment of the DP World Tour or the PGA tour. Because the only way equity grows is if your competitor doesn't flourish, right? It's pretty simple business philosophy.

But so we had to look at it very closely. We had to look at the fact that they're now playing in our market. They're talking to our players, they're talking to our sponsors, they're talking to our broadcasters. The players are not adhering to our rules and regulations and are breaking the conflicting tournament releases. So as a result, you know, we spent a tremendous and an ordinent amount of time analyzing and talking to players, getting their feelings on it and And you know our board at the end of the day, and myself, recommended what to do with the sanctions.

And then they obviously appealed those sanctions. And then that started the whole process. Sports resolution, it's important to understand, is an arbitration panel that was both, you know, the panel was agreed to by both parties. So, you know, we expected, you know, after that they were awarded the stay and they could play here,

although they didn't play very often, even though they could, which was really, really telling to us that they could play and they were only playing eight events and they didn't. So we made what we thought was a proportionate penalty and we were delighted that it was upheld by sports resolution after a week of debating the issue behind closed doors. And it's important to note, this is these conflicting release policies.

This is not new. This is not new to your rules and regulations. Not new on the PGA TORAS is something that's known amongst players for a long, long period of time. It is essential to how you're able to package the media rights and cell sponsorships, is that right? Yes. And you know, you know, it goes back to, you know, a lot of people say yes, but what's the difference

between the PGA tour and allowing them to play on live? It's an Apple's Dorn just comparison. You can't compare the two. One is a competitor, one is contracted, their employees. They are like I said, marketing, marketing their brand. You know, they're in our marketplace. They're talking to our sponsors. The PGA tour have been partners. You know, we've both been business for 50 years. We've been partners, partners in the IGF, partners in the World Golf Hall of Fame, partners in the World Golf Championships. We've been partners and competitors at the same time.

There is nothing but being competition on the other side. So when you look at it and you look at it from our board and in every aspect of it, you can't literally compare that to. There are apples to oranges comparison. And so our conflicting tournament release is there to protect our members. And that's what it was for. So what happens now? What does it all mean after this ruling are players ban for the audience? Are they banned from DP World Tour events? Are they fine for playing live events if they've kept their DP World Tour membership? What happens going forward? Well, sports resolution, you know, stated that for missing the very first event,

our suspension was upheld. So so they have to pay the $100,000 pound fine for the Centurion Club and there's 18 players that they needed to do so. So we will wait to see when they do that because it's coming up in the next week or so of that. Then we have the right to look at all of the other sanctions of events that they have played without releases. So we are in the, like I said, it's complex. And it's not something that you can just do

without giving an instrument a thought, without talking to, I've got a tournament committee meeting next week in Italy. So we'll have a tournament committee meeting on that. We've got a board meeting coming up. We've got multiple meetings we have with our management team and talk into players.

So I think that will come in the next coming weeks, what we will do. But I will tell you that we are not banning the players. We are basically, you're sanctioning them for not banning the rules and regulations on the conflicting tournament release, that they signed as part of a member. So we will, I guess we'll see what happens over the next couple of weeks as we make our decisions. That's, there's no question tied to this, but the, the irony of the situation is kind of funny to me in terms of what are with the conflicting event release policy is over on live if The coming why don't you answer to that? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's a fair. It's interesting what they've what they've signed up for I want to go back to

The Malta meeting. I love the idea of labeling it kind of as the same level as the Yalta conference what I love the idea of labeling it kind of as the same level as the Yalta conference with what went down that meeting for for listeners sake, you know, who was there? What were your kind of takeaways from that meeting? I know you referred to it when a lot when you and you and J had a joint press conference at some point last year, but what is what was the multimedia and what were your takeaways from that? The multi the multimedia was with ourselves and and golf Saudi members of golf Saudi and members of the D.P. World tour. And when was it just for clarity sake? It was back in 2021 and hence the reason that it was in Malta based on the fact that that's the only place that we could get without COVID restrictions in terms of travel. So that's why that's why we went. It was predominantly to talk about the DP World Tour, talk a little bit about the Gulf Saadi,

new initiative that they had now taken over from Rain Capital that DP World wanted us to hear. And DP World were our partners and they wanted us to hear what golf saw he was doing. And so we went and we listened. And what was their kind of pitch or what was their plan? I know that.

I think their pitch was similar to, you have to go back and look at what transpired in 2020 when at that particular time, PGO, which is the premier golf league, which had a similar, it's really, it's quite honestly, it's very similar to what transpired with live and what they're doing now. So we looked at PGO, which was run by that particular time by Rain Capital at a New York. And Rain Capital made us an offer at that particular time that then we had a fiduciary responsibility to the board. I did to take that to the board. So we analyzed PGL for the next five or, yeah, the better part

of five months and we did the exact same thing with the PGA tour. We were analyzing if we would have a partnership with the PGA tour or whether we would go down the road of PGL or whether we would stay alone. And this was something that our board wanted us to look at closely. So at the end of 2020, we decided to enter into a strategic alliance with the PGA tour. At that particular time, we informed Marine Capital that we weren't going to proceed with PGL. So by the time we get to Malta, which was six months later than that, the new proposition that the Saudis were proposing was very similar to the PGL proposal and that we had already evaluated with our

board for some five months. Hence the reason we still took that to the board and we took their presentation to the board, but it didn't require a tremendous amount of dialogue based on the fact that the board had already analyzed a similar proposal from RAID Capital and PGL for five months back in 2020 before proceeding with the PGA tour. So, and then fast forwarding from that, there was, it was reported,

there's maybe kind of what you maybe we're referring to in the early part of this show, but I remember at a point in June of last year that it was at least insinuated by by others that there was a decision to be made for the DP World Tour between aligning with live and aligning with the PGA tour. What is the reality of the situation from your viewpoint? of the situation from your viewpoint. Now the reality is that that decision was made back in 2020 when we decided to proceed with the PGA tour and not PGL, which then subsequently became SGL, side-to-gallfully, which eventually became LIP. I guess it is also maybe, I've seen it out there insinuated that there was a chance for the DP World Tour to take advantage of the enormous investment that the Saudis wanted to make in golf and were not able to do that or chose not to do that.

What's kind of the reality of that situation? Because as I understand it, there was not, there weren't like, oh, here's all this money, do exactly what you want, right? No, there weren't like, oh, here's all this money, do exactly what you want, right? No, there wasn't that. As I said, you know, the offer, the offer, or it wasn't an offer, it was a presentation, a presentation that they made in Malta was very similar to the presentation that we had just evaluated for five months with the SGL. So the story of this So the story of this $2 billion deal that was on the table was, in my opinion, not only in my opinion, and you can ask any board member what's fictional. And then so what is the timeline, I guess, of the, you know, there was the Saudi international

was a sanctioned European tour event for several years. Yeah. Around this time, what went into ending the sanctioning of that event as a DP World Tour event? And is that coincide? How's that coincide with the timeline? Yeah, so we first, you know, we brought Gulf Saudi to the game back. We did a news conference in 2018. And then we had the first Saudi international in 2019 and then we had it in 2020 and it really became problematic after that when they were pursuing another entity. And we had already, at that particular time in 2021,

we had just entered into a strategic alliance with the PGA tour. We were still open at that particular time to work with with with golf Saudi, but we thought we were gonna work with golf Saudi in a completely different way. On a completely different note, kind of getting into the future of the DP World Tour and the PGA Tour and the strategic alliance,

what can what can viewers expect regarding co-sanctioned events? I thought the joint Genesis Scottish Open last year was fantastic in terms of both tours benefiting and I think we should see the top players play in UK and Ireland more than we do. I'm wondering what you would see in the future. I know you don't want to make too many promises, but.

Yeah, but you know, it's really interesting, Ali. Because there were, you know, with the strategic alliance, and you're in this for the long term, but there were some quick wins. You know, the quick wins was the Genesis Scottish Open, you know, where we had 14 of the top 15 players in the world. And there was no question that was a real boost to European golf, and it was fantastic to see and a great opportunity for our members You know to play on the on the global stage and to and to play against the the best players in the in the world

So it was it was a fantastic First event we also had the barracuda in Barbosol and it was interesting again last week in and Barbosol. And it was interesting again last week in Japan. I talked to a couple of players without the Barbosol is, is they go, you know, we hope to qualify for the open, but if we don't, we've already booked our flight to Lake Tahoe. They thought that event was absolutely, you know, Tahoe, you know, between Nevada and California and the Gulf courses in California was one of the best places they've ever played. So the Barakuda and to get 50 spots in the Barakuda and the Barversall was another, another way. You know, Horizon came in and came in on the back of the PGA tour's commercial deal and sponsored the Uriza

Nairish Open and doubled it to from 3 million to 6 million. I think what you're going to see is obviously the cards are important obviously the the purse is increasing are important but from the consumers perspective I think you're going to see a different schedule in 2024. You're gonna see a different eligibility throughout the year. And we're working kind of around the clock right now with the PGA tour, with us,

with we're starting to talk to our stakeholders and partners. It's certainly on the agenda for next week in Italy with the players. And we hope to announce our schedule for 2024 at the Genesis Scottish Open in July this year, which will be the earliest some four or five months prior to to to announcing it before. So I think yes, there have been some quick wins, but you know, everyone's looking for quick ratification all the time. And I think what we're saying is, you know,

all this, it took us seven months to get the Genesis Scottish open because of the complexity of the two members organizations. I think there's a lion's, like I said, I think it's phenomenal for us and for our members. And I think time will tell. But in the midst of competition, in the midst of inflation, in the midst of everything that is transpiring in global golf, for us to be still in a growth mode

as far as our prize funds for our members and for the opportunities that's going to come about over the next couple of years, I think it's phenomenal. I think that's an undersold part of all this. It's a footnote. It's amongst people, I feel like, your guys' persons are guaranteed also by the PGA tour. That's just an enormous benefit in terms of anyone that had any doubts on what kind of footing you guys were on.

Like it's guaranteed, right? Well, the other thing is, and I think the number one thing that we've done is we've really aligned now, and we've made a real big change. I've always thought as golf's global tour, we play in over 40 countries and we have, if you look at the leaderboard,

there was once last week in Japan, I said to the announcer, I said, you've just announced five groups and you've announced five different countries. I was proud that Canada was in it as well. That's kind of the magic of it. What we've just done is we've completed a deal with India, with China, with Korea, with Japan, with South Africa and Australia, so that the winner of those tours in those countries, now the winner of their order of merit

get a DP World Tour card for the following year. And so we've just changed that relationship globally with all those organizations, and that's why we were able to play in Japan for the first time in 51 years, because we did a deal with the Japan golf tour. And what was phenomenal there was, I got to spend some serious time with Asai Aiyoki. And it's interesting because he won 85 times on World Wide. He's a member of the World Golf Hall of Fame, but I asked him the question. I said, during your prime, how many weeks did you play a year?

Said, I played 43 times a year. And I said, can you imagine now, is the average top 10 player, I think, plays 22.7? He played 43 times a year. But it's, that's why we were able to play in Japan. And you look at Genesis, the Genesis got us open, and that relationship that the PGA Tourbot brought us. And they brought us Genesis. That's why we're playing in Korea. And it's called the Genesis Korea Championship this week. So there are so many benefits.

And the benefits are just starting, because we're just getting started with the PGA tour. This next part is, as I understand the timeline, we had the model that includes 10 PGA tour cards for DP World Tour members. I think when that was presented, the PGA tour was in a different time period, right? Recently announced designated event model now on the PGA tour was in a different time period, right? Recently announced designated event model now on the PGA tour, you know, those 10 cards, but as I understood it, you can get into pretty much

everything or a lot of the major events. Now with the new model, I'm not positive exactly how that's gonna work. There's no implication yet in terms of what the qualifications gonna be like. Have you run any headwinds regarding your membership in the changes in the designated event model on the PGA tour? A couple people have asked some questions and we've explained it. You're basically going to get the exact same amount that we originally thought about that you are going to get. I can't explain

exactly why that is without my partners in the PGA tour, but we're totally comfortable with them. When you explain it to the players one-on-one but we're totally comfortable with it. When you explain it to the players one-on-one, they're totally comfortable with it too. As I said, they're guaranteed the 500,000 up front, and I think they're going to get a number of playing opportunities that's going to give them a full chance to get their full card in the PGA tour. And then there will be a fallback, you know, a safety net, if they're not able to keep their PGA tour where they can come back to the DP World tour.

And if they keep their PGA tour card, you know, as, as Rasmus Holger said to me last week, if I, if I get my card keep, no, where I'm always coming back. And as Bob, as Bob McIntyre said, he said, he goes, you know, I get top 10 in the world, I get the number one in the world. It doesn't matter if the Genesis, Scott has opened as a prize fund of a million pounds, I'm playing it at every time key.

You know, I'm definitely coming back to support it. So it's really, it's actually kind of, you know, that narrative that's going to play out near the end of the year, and then how we're going to increase that narrative next year, not only on the, on the pathway to the PGA tour, but what we're doing on the DP World tour, is excited and I'm energized by it. And I look forward to sharing that, that the Genesis Scottish Open later this year. It's a rider cup year. There's been a new wrinkle thrown into it,

obviously, with with live players. I think I maybe as of six months ago, I was under the impression or at least thought like, hey, there's no way we see any of the live players in the rider cup. But as time has gone on, it seems like on the US side, if they qualify on points, they're going to be straight on the team. I understand it to be the same,

as well in the D.P. World side, and the captains have the possibility of selecting players. What's the reality you think of that situation? What kind of sense do you get where it's gonna go? I think the reality is that if the players, there's two criteria for to get on our right or cup team.

There's two criteria to get on our writer, Coptine. You need to be a DP World Tour member, and you need to qualify. The third is Luke can make one of his six picks. That's totally at his discretion. We are in no way saying that the players can't qualify. I think what it's the challenge that the players on live are going to have is they have to play so many events on the other tour. So those are up against our events, so they're not going to have the opportunity to get as many points. And then depending upon what happens to the sanctions, it's going to make it more difficult.

So I think it's going to be more difficult for them to qualify. So then it really comes down to how well they play in the respect of majors and you know how the respect of captains believe that A, they're informed and B, it will be a positive vibe with the chemistry for those respective teams. I have this, this will be my, you know, fourth writer cup. And I have never and will not influence any of the captains picks, even if I wanted influence them. Let's be real, it isn't going to happen anyways. So it's really up to Luke. And from my understanding, I have not talked to the PGA of America and Seth Waw about this.

But from my understanding, it's up to Zach Johnson as well. So, I guess we will, that'll play out. The reality is, you know, Italy is going to be something incredibly special. And I believe, and I always have believed, that the rider cup is a brand that is bigger than the players. Now, there may become a time when, when all the players aren't able to play, then that's a different. But right now, it's definitely,

it's bigger, the brand is so large, it's such a big event, it's gonna be absolutely monumental in Italy. We're definitely going to be beyond sold out. And we just wish there were more matches and we could sell more tickets because you can only sell so many tickets when there's only four matches going on. But Italy is going to be epic. Let me roll out this hypothetical and I know you mentioned earlier that you haven't fully decided on what the sanctioned activity is going to be epic. Let me roll out this hypothetical, and I know you mentioned earlier that you haven't fully decided on what the sanctioned activity is going to be going forward for a lot of these

players. But as I understand it, to be on the Radica team, you still need to be a DP World Tour member. So if you retain your membership and continue to play in the live, you are liable to be sanctioned, liable to be fined, every time you play one of those without a conflicting event release, right? So in theory, you would think that that would mean players forfitting their membership rather than continually be fined.

So do you see that as a potential, you know, kind of not necessarily forcing players into committing, you know, giving up their membership, but a situation where players are incentivized to do that and thus become no longer right or cup eligible? Well, nothing has been definitively determined in terms of the sanctions, in terms of the penalties and in terms of the fines. But at the end, it's the player's choice. They will have a choice. That I can tell you. So they choose to leave membership, then yeah, that's disappointing, but it'll be their choice. Was their choice to leave and play for a competitive tour? We respect the fact that that's a decision that they made.

We do also understand it comes with consequences, but it is und it is, it is undeniably unquestionably going to be their choice. I'm not quite positive how to, how to ask this question other than to acknowledge it's what it's, you know, ask you what it's been like seeing some guys that who know doubt have had incredibly positive impact on the European tour and DB world tour over the years turn around and constantly either attempt to dunk on the PGA tour and D. B. World tour over the years turn around and constantly either attempt to dunk on the PGA tour and D. B. World tours, sue the tours, light bridges on fire on their way out. I mean, Sergio Garcia's comments last year at the BMW International saying, this tour is blank. You guys are all blanks. You should have taken the Saudi money and have

these very public fights and spats with a tour that has been good to them and they have been good to over the years. I'm just curious your perspective on what it's been like to watch that kind of unfold. Well, I think that's been disappointing to myself and to the entire staff. And all the players, I mean, well, a lot of the players, but all the staff that have worked with these players for years and years and years. That's what I would say. They're disappointed. I think what I said earlier is the way that I would describe the majority of membership. majority of membership understand, you know, why they, why they went. But the majority of membership also feel that they shouldn't come back and cherry pick an event. And they also think that it's two way street, you know, they, they, they were, they were really a key players here on the DP World Tour

for many years, but at the same time, the DP World gave them their opportunity. They provided a platform for them to get sponsors, for them to get into majors, for them to, in fact, get into live. Look, there's a couple of players that are on live that will go on mentioned, but you know, played a long time on the tour and only in recent success allowed them to get the opportunity to play for game changing money. And so I would say, solid that has probably been the biggest disappointment to myself, my management team,

our staff and our board, is that people that gave so much, and we gave so much to them, because it was definitely at two way streets, not a one way street. You know, these Ryder Cup players, the Ryder Cup provided them a platform that changed their lives. And for them to tell us how we should be running the tour, to be saying some things that are derogatory is just, yeah, I'm just disappointed by it, as is our staff. And I keep coming right back to, it's not about me,

it's about the staff, right? It's about that Jersey, the same name's on the back. So if they criticize myself, I'm totally fine with that, but they're criticizing our entire tour by criticizing me. And that's all the staff that worked with them for so many years, and that's unfair. That's the part that just feels unnecessary. And I've been a turn off for a golf fan like myself.

It's like, honestly, the way, and I know he's not a DP World Tour member, but the way Dustin Johnson's gone about it, doesn't bother me. He's just going and playing his golf, keeping his mouth shut, and like everyone understands why he made that decision. It just kind of blows my mind to the people that, you know, they want to have it both ways and are fine lighting their reputation so on fire.

Well, like I said, you know, like, like, like, nobody handled it with more class than Louis Ustazen, you know, and I think Louis has influenced a lot of the South African players who have been phenomenal But Louis called me and he said Keith, what do you think I should do? You know, I want to thank you for everything You've you've provided to the the tour, you know I'm going to to do this he wrote me a letter. He wasn't going to play a lot anyways. So, you know, nothing but class. I have nothing but class for a number of them. But there are others that I just go, you know, it's just not right. It's just not right. Well, the hard part for someone like Louis or for DJ

is, you know, now they're part of a tour that by association is taking action against other tours and the OWGR and the majors and all that. So, you know, they're a part of an organization that even if they aren't necessarily the voices behind it are creating a lot ahead in for a lot of the other organizations. I do have to ask about the OWGR. There's a lot of, you're on the board, a lot of talk about live getting OWGR points and

do you guys need to recuse yourself from that process, all that. I think there's still a lot of confusion amongst golf fans as to what the OWGR is for and how it all works. But I'm curious your perspective on the future of of live getting a WGR points. Well, as you know, that decision is not mine, because we've we've I've recused myself as is commissioner J. Manehan as is Keith Waters who represents the international tours and is also our chief operating officer. So that decision will be made by the four majors, but they will, they will just in the past, you know, follow the process. They'll follow the process that we have done for, for many

years. And that is, is the technical committee evaluates the, the application via a very extensive criteria. And then they inform the board and they give the board their recommendation. So it really comes down to the technical committee and the four majors going forward. The DP World Tour seems to have taken a bit of a hit when it comes to the latest iteration of the World Golf rankings.

Is that something you've heard from your membership and kind of what's your reaction to that? Well, I think that yeah, I sure have heard that. And was part of the board that solicited an independent study from four universities to look at the accuracy of the OWGR, which took about two years, and unanimously, they came to the decision that it was inaccurate.

Now with a new system, so we put a new system in. Now with a new system, there's always challenges. And as a result, we're looking at some modifications of it that would help some of the DP World tour. When you look at this particular week, you know, Lucas Herbert won. He was 59th in the world. He's now 42nd. So, so it really, it really is, is some of the real smaller tours, the ones that I've just mentioned, we now have a great pathway to us, the India, China, Japan, Korea, South Africa and Australia. We are looking at that as well. The other thing you have to look at when you look at the OWGR is what is the main goal of the OWGR. One is the sponsorship, obviously, if you get inside the top 100 from some of the manufacturers,

but that is getting lower and lower and lower. And it is concentrating on the elite players more than it has before. So the other is how do you get into the majors? And we have a phenomenal pathway into the open championship. We have a great pathway into the US open, thank to the Mike one and the USGA and Martin slumbers and the RNA. We're working through those with Augusta and the

PGA championship and hopefully we'll have a solution to that in the coming months. Last one will get you out of here on this one. Maybe one of the harder ones I've asked you so far today. Any regrets from the last year, two years, three years, if you could go back in time and say, I wish I had known this, I wish I had done this different. I'm curious your perspective on that. Wow, that's an excellent question.

You know, if I went back and looked backwards, yeah, there's probably some things that I probably could find that I've learned and that I would do differently. But you know, I'm from the school of thought that you always have to look forward. And right now, with everything that's happening, I don't have time to look back. I've got only time to look forward, and I barely have enough hours in the days to look forward. So, listen, my philosophy is, you've got to make decisions,

you're gonna make some right decisions, you're gonna make some wrong decisions, and your success is gonna be determined on, the fact that you make more right decisions than wrong decisions. So, we will, you know, time will tell if I could have done some things differently, but I believe that we're looking forward now. We've got a wonderful partner in the PGA tour.

That one I am definitively in violent agreement with all of my executive leadership team in the board that we made the right decision and the right partner with the PGA tour. Now we just have to grow our business with them. And I'll continue to look forward, not backwards. Wonderful answer, wonderful answer. You know it. All right, thanks so much for your time, man. I'm really glad you could talk now because this was a very enlightening conversation.

I look forward to it to doing this again in the future. Listen, congratulations on all your success at No Laying Up, and I look forward to seeing you next week, because I hear you're coming to Italy. We will see you there. Can't wait for it. Thanks, appreciate the time, Keith. It's been a great club, it's been a great club today. Yeah! That's better than most.

How about in? That is better than most. Better than most! Expect anything different! I'm gonna go to the next one. I'm gonna go to the next one. I'm gonna go to the next one. I'm gonna go to the next one.

I'm gonna go to the next one. I'm gonna go to the next one. I'm gonna go to the next one. I'm gonna go to the next one. I'm gonna go to the next one. I'm gonna go to the next one. I'm gonna go to the next one. I'm gonna go to the next one.

I'm gonna go to the next one. I'm gonna go to the next one.