No Laying Up - Golf Podcast - NLU Podcast, Episode 677: Johnson Wagner

Episode Date: May 3, 2023

Soly catches up with PGA Tour pro and broadcaster, Johnson Wagner, to discuss his transition from playing full time to broadcasting for the Golf Channel as well as his take on the PGA Tour policy changes, life on tour as a "mule", LIV, the distance debate and more.  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

I'm going to be the right club today. Yes! That is better than most. How about him? That is better than most. Better than most. media days, we got a great episode coming to you here with Johnson Wagner. I really hope I hope you guys enjoy this as much as I did and I really hope we get Johnson back on a lot more frequently to check in on some issues and golf. It's really great to have somebody pretty fresh off their career. Ben a member of the policy board knows what he's talking about with a lot of these things to be able to kind of weigh on a lot of these issues.

I know we've covered a lot of the issues that we talk about here, but always enjoy some fresh perspectives and I greatly, greatly enjoyed talking, talking Johnson and seeing some of his work he's done so far with golf channel. Whether you're a scratch player or new to the game, there's an easy way to lower your scores, adding a rangefinder to your pre-shot routine will change your game forever. Our longtime partner precision pro golf has created a rangefinder unlike any other. All of us here at No-Lang Up have been using the NX10 for over a year now, I think,

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Again, precisionprogolf.com slash NLU code no-langup for $20 off. Here's Johnson Wagner. All right, he's got a professional setup and everything, I think, is it fair to say you've made a full-time transition from professional golfer to golf commentator. Absolutely. The golf channel keeps asking me to do these events that I was going to play.

I commented Puerto Rico and Dominican to events that I withdrew from. I'm going to do the club pro the week of Wells Fargo. I'm fully away from professional golf. When did you know, no, you wanted to get into the commentary business, the media business. It's, you know, there's a lot of professional golfers and there's just a few seats in the game that allow for that. Was this something you were kind of angling for for a long time? Gosh, maybe it was 2011 at the Deutsche Bank Championship ran into Peter Jacobson. He had me try to do something funny for one of their things on the coverage, spoken of Boston

accent and Peter Jacobson was like, dude, he said, keep winning, but when you're ready, TV careers ahead of you. And yeah, the last couple of years, I've been thinking about it a lot and it just kind of fell in my lap, starting to do some golf central stuff. And I've worked really hard to prepare for things and wanted to get more on the broadcast inside just because I love being on the ground and staying in touch with friends and caddies and all sorts of guys. So I think that's where I hopefully will find my groove and I've got some more of those coming up this summer, which I'm fired up about. Well, it's pretty easy for me to tell just in what you've

produced so far. You know, when you get to, I'm going to do my best in this interview, not to make you sound older than you are. Like you're 43, right? You're not that old, right? But a career in golf is long and a lot of time on the road, and there's burnout, and there's a lot of factors to it, but I sense an eagerness for you in terms of a life in golf past playing professional golf, but it's met with anticipation and excitement is what it feels like to me.

Yeah, I've been describing it. I haven't been this fulfilled professionally, probably in three, four years. I would say since before COVID, and to the old thing, I have, you know, my good friend Harold Varner, we used to play a lot of prac rounds together and he called me old man all the time

and I'm like, Harold, I'm 10 years older than you, you're gonna be there soon and now the TV world when golf channel came knocking, they said we're looking to get younger. So actually in the TV world, I think I'm on the younger side, which is a, it's a nice change of pace. What's your golf games like now? How much golf are you playing? And what kind of a film it do you get out of that at this point? Well, I played this morning.

I played, I live in Charlotte, play a quill hollow and I shot 73 from, you know, one tee up from the Wells T's, made two birdies. I'm pretty pathetic right now. I've gone from about a plus five and a half to a plus two and a half. So if I need to get ready for the member, member, member guest, my handicap will be in a good spot. But I'm driving it all over the planet, high right, low left. And if I hit the fairway, it's a miss hit. So I'm about to go to a softer shaft.

And it's pretty hard to believe. I haven't broken my driver in the last six months. But I love playing my sons young. We love playing together. He's a 14 year old good little junior golfer. So I'm he's keeping me interested. I don't want him to beat me quite yet. And I think it's going to happen this summer though.

He's going to take me down. Not sure how to ask this question, right? Because you've dedicated hours and hours and hours and hours of your life to the golf swing. You've had an incredible success on the PGA tour. How do you get to a point where you're talking about struggling with your driver, right? You know how to, you know, you know, the principles of a golf swing, right? I know you don't have the answer to that. I know golf is my incredible, you know, mind exercise, right?

But at your level, how do you, how do you explain you know exactly what your misses are with driver, but why you can't correct it? I'm just curious your answer to that. Well, I think I've played a I've always had a pretty hard set at the top of my back swing So I've always played as shaft. It's a bit too stiff for me and now it's finally catching up So I think a bit softer shaft also I used to hit a big sling and draw So I've got this inside club path, but in the last couple years I've been working on hitting a fade So I've got an inside club path with a held off face. So that's what's leaving me the high rights.

But the low, the low left, I think that's just poor contact. I'm not hitting the center of the face every time. But funny enough, my iron plays been spectacular. I just can't seem to find my part three scoring would be good right now. I just can't seem to find myself in a situation where I'm not chipping out every other hole. If I looked at numbers from the peak of your career, I'd say you're about an average length driver on the PGA tour, is that about right?

My first few years, but then these last eight or nine, I've gotten incredibly short. I think my last measurable year, I was probably in the 180s or 190s driving distance was. And my question there is, is that a reflection of you losing distance or what has what professional golf has kind of turned into, especially at the PGA Tour level of just how much how many more long drivers there are out there and how they seem to make their way make it cuts

on the PGA Tour. I think it's both my I pretty much have always carried the ball about 280 to 185 off the tee and probably now more in the 275 range, which is a big, which is a big fall off, but I think it's a testament to these kids coming up in college. They've, I've worked out one, maybe two years of my life playing professional golf and these kids are coming up, working out in junior golf, working out in college golf. They've got access to track man.

They've never had to hit a ball out of golf ball. So they, they grew up, grew up in my son is there. He's 14 and he was taught how to just smash it as hard as he can, figure out how to hit it straight later. And he's 14 years old, weighs 110 pounds. He's already carrying the ball 250 yards. So I think it's a combination of everything. I guess what's that been like, I guess,

into the late 2010s and what not to see. It was there ever a pursuit of distance in your mind. Did into the late 2010s and whatnot to see, you know, it was there ever a pursuit of distance in your mind. Did you see the riding on the wall to say, like, well, I don't know if the way things are trending, if I can compete at this level? I think post COVID is when I kind of knew that I wasn't going to win at a lot of venues. And with my status, I played one 20, 60, 50 in number of years. And then last year out of the past champion category, I'm getting into events like Mexico

this week, which is 8,000 yards, no rough. It seemed like every event I was getting into was a bit of a bomber's paradise. So it came quickly to mind post COVID. My caddy left me to go find someone younger, longer, and it became really clear that I just didn't really have what it took and wasn't particularly willing to work as hard as I had ever worked to gain the distance because

would an extra 10 yards actually make that big of a difference. And it doesn't, you know, that that could potentially come at the cost of something, right? It's not a magical thing, right? You got to change, you know, you got to change, you might have to change something in the back swing, you might have to change a swing path thing, you might have to change. And how does that affect your your iron play and all this stuff? It's not a, it's not an overnight kind of shift, I think. Yeah, and I was always like, I, without my putter, I wouldn't have had a, I would never have made it to the PGA tour. I always found myself to be, I mean, yourself proclaimed,

but a great putter and, and that's when I was having solid years. That's, that's where I got the job done. That, the numbers check out on that one. What do you owe that to, right? I mean, everyone, it's the most maddening part of the game for so many people. What do you owe your great putting to? I've found a couple putting drills early on my nationwide tour career. Primarily, I hate to give him a shout out, but to Brandt Snetaker taught me this drill.

And basically, it's forced everybody does it now, but four T's around the hole and you got to make all your three footers to move back to four to five to seven. And I just found that if I was really solid inside seven eight feet, that I could be more aggressive on longer putts. And so I always knew I was going to make that putt coming back. And you make more putts than you three putt when you run them by the hole. So I was an aggressive guy. I worked hard at it. I hated working hard at putting, but it was something that I was pretty dedicated to because I knew that's where I had to differentiate myself from the rest. What are, uh, do you have swing thoughts when you're hitting puts?

Yeah. Uh, yeah. Uh, I won the, when I won the Sony open, I was getting into the ball and I kind of dance with my feet a little bit bit and I would think, keep your head down, stroke it down your line. There's no other place it's going, but the bottom of the hole. And I said that to myself on every putt that whole week. And I've tried to keep the similar even today. I inside eight feet, I know what's going in, keep the head down, stroke it down your line.

Where else is it going to go? What's going in the bottom? How do you reset when you're when even the best putters have weeks where it just feels off or the ball's cut coming off? How do you, how do you reset and reengage with thoughts like that? Well, you fake it till you make it. You have to, and I've a lot, not a lot,

but a few pros have asked me to help them with their putty and just because they play with me and they see me hold on all these eight footers for par all day. So, and I, I talked to them about their prep and how are you talking to yourself leading into the putt? And so I've always been able to fake it even when my stroke has been perfect. I've always had the belief that I was going to make a putt. How deep are you then on, uh, you know, left brain, right brain, the visualization aspects of golf confidence and, and rotella and all the stuff that kind of can,

uh, can open up a world of good play. I'm struggling with this right now. I'm not using you as a personal consultant right now, but I'm struggling with it. Yeah, I've read, you know, the first couple of hotel books. I've read some other, uh, Fort psychology books and I've worked with guys like GeoValiente and, uh, it's, they, they all say the same thing. You just have to, I think positive self-talk is the whole thing. You can practice all you want and get as good as you want, but if you don't believe it in your mind that you're gonna succeed, then it's not gonna happen.

So I think, just, and I'm a pretty positive guy. Happy most of the time, if not all the time. So it's been an easy thing for me to have a positive outlook on all that. Right brain left brain, I have no clue. Linear, linear non-linear on the greens. I'm definitely a nonlinear guy I don't I don't use a line. I like to see shapes. I like to see the break. I always saw like a yellow path going into the hole

But but the left brain right blind thing that's that's way above my head Well, I think it kind of clicked for me a little bit when it was I learned or I heard the thing that it's like your body has better Instincts as to where the ball wants to go than your mind does right so if you are trusting your body and like that's why alignment's very important is if you feel like your alignment is off and your body is going to want to correct correct for that and the way like you communicate thoughts from your own head to your hands like even the best players in the world are not capable of doing that like scientifically right so Tiger Woods when he's playing his best it comes comes from a feel, like in the flow state, the feel state of like, I don't even need a number to that flag right now, I can hit it this distance.

And that's where I've found, I've played my best golf, but I can't channel it on demand. I struggle so much with like the circular nature of confidence, breeding good play, which breeds confidence, breeds good play. Like getting into that cycle is what I find to be the hardest. How often do you play? These days, if I'm lucky twice a week, that's...

Which, that's enough, but are you hitting balls or practicing in between? All right, now, not a lot. Yeah, it's... Got... Got some of those games that, and I've lost it, I haven't touched a club in two and a half weeks before today, and it's...

You have to do it all the time to improve and get better. But it's, it's, it's very, very tricky. So get into some topics around the world of golf. Now that you are a fellow golf commentator, welcome to my world, I would say it's probably a lot more fun going and actually hitting the golf shots. But actually, this is kind of fine at times too. But you caught my attention a few weeks ago regarding, you know, the designated event model, how you felt it actually breathed some life back into live. I had some comments on the podcast about it because I just agree with that. But where does that come from?

Why do you think that that breeds some life back into live? And that, I just, and you guys made a great point, like the PGA tours find with a bunch of, as you guys say, mules going to live. Like, that's fine. They can live, the PGA tour can afford to lose all those guys. But I just think the depth of the PGA tours, what makes it strong. And I'm changing my tone on it.

I do want to see some cuts and designated events. Tiger Woods Tuesday press conference at the Masters. He's pretty adamant that he wants to cut at his Genesis event. I think the history of Jack's event at the Masters. He's pretty adamant that he wants to cut at his genesis event. I think the history of Jack's event at Memorial, if it's a designated event, I think he wants some Arnold Palmer, I'm sure would have wanted him. So I think there's a, I think there's a more of a middle ground guy now, because I think the tour has done a wonderful job of squashing live.

I mean, the very little momentum they picked up in Adelaide, I think, is going to go away soon. But I just, there's so much money we're playing for. And it's hard to get into those near field village that the Bay Hill as a mule myself. And so, I mean, I played 16 years on tour. I probably played Bay Hill six or seven times, pretty similar to Memorial. And I just, if you play good enough,

it's nice to have more access. And if there could be of the eight designated events that are non majors and non-fetics at playoffs, if you could have half of them that are no cut, I think that's a bit of a better system. But I mean, y'all make such a great point. Like, I never brought anybody other than family and friends to a golf tournament.

And guys like Mackle Roy and Spieth and Homa and Ram. These guys are bringing in the revenue. And I've always felt like they've been pretty fairly compensated now with the PIP program. I just, I think the tours flourishing. Everybody's doing well, why are we cutting jobs right now? It's interesting.

At first of all, it's Ryan Armors words about Mule. We just made it, uh, made it into a joke in a meme that I hope lasts for a long time, because I think it's fantastic. But the whole thing is interesting. And it is, it's hard because obviously Roy McElroy is incredibly well compensated. So is Andrew Shoffley. So is Patrick Cantlay. Yet at the same time, it has felt like at times and I'm

going to say a lot of stuff and I just want to get your kind of reaction to it and stuff we've set on the podcast before but we've we've struggled to kind of find somebody at around your level that will come on and have this discussion for us and provide the perspective that you can but from where I've said it seemed like that the the overwhelming majority of players on the PGA tour by number are not the top players, right? There's 170 card holders, whatever that are not the biggest value drivers, I would say out there. So in a way, it's been, I would think difficult for tour leadership to push through changes like there have been made in the past year because of the equal representation that all classes of players have.

And now with some leverage given to these top guys of a different tour recruiting them, it provided a landscape for some wholesale changes to be made that maybe better represent kind of and compensate the players that bring the most value to it. Yet I would argue in a way, what they've come up with, and I will see how it all plays out.

I'm enthused about the process of it, but it felt like the light bulb went off for so many people. Peter Baunnaughty kind of blew my mind for how fast he changed his opinion of actually less people in the designated events is going to help the other events by a lot. And I think the main criticism when everything came out was like the Honda classics of the World Bad Example because that event is going away. But you know, the medium to lower tier events are going to suffer greatly because of this, because, you know, everything's going to get sucked up into these designated events. But by limiting the field in the designated events, the second tier events are going to

have some top players in it and are going to be bolstered by that a little bit. Do you buy into any of that or what's going to be a reaction to all that? I do buy into it. And you guys have had a lot to do with me changing my mind about it. I thought Peter's episode with you all was incredible. And I do think there's a balance because I did serve on the board and I felt like I represented my, I hate the word, but constituents. And I, I fought for, we made the cut go from 70 to 65, which I fought for a little bit,

but then we got the MDF pushed out, which I hated. Do you remember the MDF made cut? Did not finish like, if you make the cut on the weekend, I, I, I, I, I missed a, I made a lot of MDF cuts and for the listeners, that's a Saturday cut when there was more than however many guys 78, 78 players. So, but I could be sitting in 71st place, three shots out of like 35th, which was a big difference in money and points and could have made a difference. But I agree with you, those guys have a strong voice. I just think there's a balance.

I don't like the idea of having basically it would be 11 no cut events with the three playoff events. And it's going to be so hard for a guy like me. I think I got into the top 50 in the FedEx Cup twice in my career. And granted, I had a great career. I'm so happy. I would have taken it when I was in college.

If you had said, you're gonna win three times in place 16 years on tour and then do TV after I would have taken it in a heartbeat. But there are guys like me that maybe have a little better work ethic that are a little more fit, hit the ball a little further, that if given the opportunity to play in these events when they're young, when they're rookies,

that maybe they could become the next Xander softly. And as opposed to just having Xander because he's in that top 50 regularly, it's gonna be harder for the turnover, the churn rate as the tour said, I'm worried that it's going to be too closed of a shop. That's where I'm coming from.

That's, I'm worried about that too. I think it's TBD on that. I think they have said, again, we're going off the information that we're given, right? The original churn was only going to be about 20% at the bottom of the pack in terms of who comes in, who comes out, and their projected models. Now it's closer to 38% right with so, you know, maybe 10 guys would have fallen out of that top 50 to now 18 guys falling out of that top 50. But I'd be very stunned if they didn't tweak this from the after the first year in some way.

I don't know which way it's going to be, but I would guess there's going to be some tweaks to it. I guess where I kind of got to the end of it all pretty quickly was like, you know what? Like how that's going to get determined is going to be decided on the golf course, right? I don't in this current system. I don't think you're going to be, if you play great golf, I don't think you're there's any way you get held back. I really don't think there is. And that's always been the case about golf, which is great. And you guys use the term all the time, but we used it on the corn fairy tour when played, it was the nationwide tour play better.

You want to get in the PGA tour play better. It is, it is major league baseball players coming up with the minor leagues. It doesn't matter how good they are. Their success, and if they make it to the big show, depends on what other people's opinions are of them. In golf, you could be fat, ugly. You could hit it nowhere,

but if you go out and shoot the scores, you're going to be rewarded. I just think now it's going to be harder and harder, but to, you know, to y'all's point, there's going to be plenty of other events the summertime, you know, the fall. There's going to be plenty of time for guys to make a name for themselves. And if you go out and win a golf tournament, you're going to be in those designated events the following year. So it's, you know, it is a pretty equitable thing. I just, I think there's a middle ground between what they rolled out at the players and what, you know, the mules would like to see.

I think, I think there's, I think there's a middle ground and to your point, I think after, I think it'll be, in two years, the system's gonna be perfect because the designated events are working. Look at these events, even RBC, which I was doing golf central that week, and I was in Augusta for a couple days over the weekend. RBC did not feel like a designated event until the weekend. And then we were delivered such a wonderful show like, Speed, Cantlay,

Fitzpatrick in the final group. We had Jimmy Walker was a good story for a little bit. Like, it's just I think the designated events have delivered and I think they're gonna continue deliver. And the last thing I'll say about it, I played a few no-cut events, couple WGCs. And in China, the HSBC in 2012, I think I shot 74, 75 on the weekend. I was ready to get out of China.

And I've shot 75, 76 on the weekend, got my check. And like that's one thing about these no cut, 75 man fields, you're gonna have 10 guys, 15 guys played terrible the first day and just not want to be there. So that's where if you have that cut, at least you weed the guys out that are playing terrible. A quick break here to check in with our friends

at Roeback active where you all know Roeback. These guys just understand quality. There's only one way to describe them best fit best feel We are actually out filming in California now for a series. It's gonna be brought to you by rowback It has been awesome to be able to fluctuate between the hoodies the Q-zips the performance polos These performance polos are just fantastic. They hit different their four-way stretches next level The material is moisture wicking to get you through a warm day on the golf course and stays wrinkle free. The colors nice and crisp. It doesn't bake in on you. Second to performance Q-zips are a game changer. I actually root for those cool mornings and cool evenings where I can throw a rowback quarter zip on either on the golf course or out around

town. They're soft. They're stretchy and comfortable. And then lastly, of course, the performance hoodies, the stretchiest softest hoodies and golf, they can't send me enough of these things because I cycle through them like crazy. If you want to be comfortable and relaxed on the course, then wear a rowback hoodie. There's a reason why you see us wearing them almost all the time when we are on camera. Rowback is gaining traction big time and you can use code NLU at rowback.com for a generous 20% off your first order through the end of this week. That's rhob-O-B-A-C-K- .com 20% off polo's Q-Zips hoodies and more with code N-L-U. Let's get back to Johnson Wagner. I'm with you on the cut. I think even in a limited field event, I think you can package up a nice

little weekend set of golf with you don't need all 80 guys on the golf course on that weekend. So I don't love I don't know if 80s 70 to 80s the right answer. I think I understand the rationale behind it, but I'm curious to see how these go. I think a lot of people have reaction to it being it's WGC's all over again or it's live light or things like that. I think those are natural reactions and I don't I think I disagree with them, but I'm not saying they're wrong. I think it's still a wait and see. We'll see how these goes. I think designated events have been a great success. And I think like the initial gut reaction of the mules,

if I may say to this, is that things are being taken from them and funnel back up to the top, right? When in reality, at least what they're presenting and what they're hoping to be the case is, now the funnel's just gonna grow. And out of the new funnel that comes in, yes, more of that is going to go to the top guys, that's not necessarily taking away from the middle to lower tier player in a perfect world. Again, I don't know if it's going to play out that way, but that's how I interpret the

situation yet. At the same time, I think everyone's got instinct is like, stop. We got to fight for this class of player. That's what makes Peter's flip super interesting to me. Because he basically ran on my campaign model, like go out and you know everybody and just send them the link. Nobody cares who they vote for. They just vote for the most popular name. It's a popularity contest, but if you campaign, if you really truly care about getting on that board, you send guys text them the link to vote and they'll vote for you. And about getting on that board, you send guys text them the link to vote,

and they'll vote for you. And the one other thing, like think about the waste management Phoenix open. 120, I think is a good, or 100 would be a good field size, but with only one wave there, think about the alcohol sales that they're losing on a Thursday, Friday, if it's a limited field.

And I think you made the point, like a gustous model, what is it? 88 to 94 guys, they cut to 45 and ties. I think that is an incredible sort of format for these smaller designated events. Have the cut have smaller weekend numbers and pace of play would speed up quite a bit there too. That's why I think one of the points

that Ryan was making in one of those is something I hadn't truly thought of, right? Of hospitality is about getting a lot of golf in front of people on the golf course. So having a lot of golfers on the golf course in that regard does thought of, right? Of hospitality is about getting a lot of golf and front of people on the golf course. So having a lot of golfers on the golf course in that regard does make sense, right? That's a positive of that. I think maybe that doesn't always package great for TV.

It adds some complications of not being able to finish rounds and some log jams and things of that nature. But there is at least something to like, part of how PGA Tour events work is setting up hospitality. And if you show up at 10 a.m. then there's going to be somebody on the 16th hole playing it by that point. So it's a great point.

I mean, Phoenix is sun up, sun down Thursday, Friday, the crazy crowds rushing out there. I mean, I'm blown away by that whole setup. And yeah, I think they would, I think they would prefer to not have a 75 man field there. But who knows, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not a part of those decisions. People will rush there and just wait though. Also, if there's no golf, I've been there on a Saturday. They just sit there and wait for that first pair to come through. It's, it's, it's fantastic. So what are we, what are we going to do about slow play? Can anything be done? What do you think we should be doing in that slow play? Well, it's, it's, it's a grassroots level. Like I'm watching a bunch of junior golf now.

And my son, we play at quail. And if we play in over three hours in a four-some, we're ripping our hair out. So they've taught the juniors there to play really fast. But these junior golfers today, when I watch these events, they take forever. And I know they're idolizing the PJ tour players and going through all the routine. But I have heard that the college golf game is even worse than the PJ tour right now. So I think the shot clock idea obviously would be great.

I think there's too many variables. If a gut's to win comes up and you've got a difficult shot and you've got to go change another club and then you're rushing to hit that shot. Maybe that would be more entertaining, but with $20 million on the line, it'd be hard to do that. But I think it's a grassroots campaign. I think we've got a, I think we've got a halt slow play in the junior golf collegiate level. And then when those guys get out to the PGA tour,

they will be trained to play faster. And you're in your time serving on the board. Is this a, is this a topic that comes across? Rules related related stuff. Is that something you guys are helping determine? What would happen if you were on the board today? And and you know, how would you go about beginning to push through legislation on this? Well, my last couple of years we had a huge change to the pace of play policy. It used to be if your entire group your entire group would go on the clock. And there's a lot of fast players.

I think the majority of guys, half the guys on tour considered medium to fast. And if you're playing with a, you know, Ben Crane is pretty slow back in the day. If you're playing with Ben Crane, I would always ask the official like, hey, could you take me off of the timing sheet? I don't, I don't think there's any reason for me to be time.

So we passed it making it easier for officials to only time one individual player in a group, which was a night, that was a very nice change, but we talked a lot about shaming guys in locker rooms, right? We talked a lot about posting the tops and slow players. We talked at, and I've heard you guys talk about it. We taught that came up in every player meeting, every pack meeting, every board meeting, that stuff comes up and the tour's stance is that they're just not in the business of shaming guys into playing faster. But honestly, that is probably the answer because nobody's going to want to see their

name up on the locker room walk because people will take pictures of it. That's out in the social media world and you'll be known as a slow player and you'll get ripped at every event you go to. Thanks. Some guys are okay with that, right? If that means that their paychecks picker at the end of the year and they've retained their card or whatever it's got to be, I mean, if it was the difference in, or if you feel this way, if it was the difference in keeping your card and not and getting some people mad on social media, a lot of guys are going to be okay with that, right? They are another thing. So in my 15 years, 16 years on tour, back in 2007, my rookie year,

if you got 10, if you were in a group that was timed 10 separate times throughout the year, I think it was a 25, 35,000 dollar fine, about halfway through my career. I believe it went up to a hundred thousand dollar fine. And then now I believe it's in the 250,000 dollar fine. And then now I believe it's in the $250,000 fine. If your group gets on and you can obviously, you know, question that. But the money finding guys is not doing it. There needs to be penalties and there needs to be, I think, some sort of public shaming like Game of Thrones, some lady walking around saying, shame. That's, I, I have, I've had some really half-baked ideas. Like, you have to wear a belt if you're being timed.

So that everyone knows it. And it's going to vibrate at random time. That's a really outrageous idea. But one that, again, as somebody who's served on the board and can talk to, you know, how to push these things through, if you had a red light yellow light green light system, where you had the fastest players of green light,

the middle third, or yellow light green light system where you had the the fastest players of green light the middle third or yellow light and the the final three are are a red light and green players get to play with green players in the good t times and yellow gets whatever in the red are gonna play with red you don't get the advantage of like hey I get to play with a fast guy and my slow pace is not going to get exposed right it's all of a sudden you're going to start that round on the clock. If you are in the bottom third, then I'm sure it doesn't work and I haven't thought of why yet. But what's your reaction to something like that? We've discussed something very similar, you know, it's hard to do that on the weekend. But we can pace a play so much better anyway because there's less guys. But on a Thursday, Friday, if you are in the top 10% slowest players on tour, so the T times go, the first few T times are fully exempt guys that haven't won a tournament in the last two years. And then it's the winners category, the premier times. And then there's some of the category one behind that. And then it's

the rookie category always bringing in the flags, never finishing on the West Coast, because there's not enough daylight. And so we came up with an idea, the top 10% of the players go into the rookie category every Thursday, Friday. And if they show improvement, then they can go back into their normal category. And we thought it was done. What a great way to incentivize people to play fast. So you don't have to be in the last groups out on a Thursday Friday because not only is it slow, but the greens get really bad

in the afternoons on Thursday Fridays. You're hardly ever finishing in the fall and in the spring. So we thought, and it's very similar to your idea, we thought it was a home run, but it just, you know, the tours very cautious with the slow play. They don't want players. I think it's like an impending lawsuit. I've earned this

status. I am, you know, going to sue you if you start putting me in the rookies. And I'm a 10-time winner on the PGA tour. I've deserved better, but that's that's that's where I think they stand on that. And I think some people, not not saying you, but some listeners have misinterpreted my stance on it. It's just I guess I've seen a little bit around the corner to say like, it's really freaking hard to write the rules for this, right? It's not as simple as you have 40 seconds to hit a shot, right? Because there's often nowhere to go

and that's kind of how the rules are written currently is if your group's not out of position, like it doesn't, there's no necessarily limit. I don't believe on that. You're not gonna get penalized for taking over 40 seconds on a shot if you're not out of position. Because there's nowhere to go.

Part of tournament golf is like not outpacing yourself. There's no reason to play extremely fast if you're gonna going to get penalized for taking over 40 seconds on a shot if you're not out of position. Because there's nowhere to go. Part of tournament golf is like not outpacing yourself. There's no reason to play extremely fast if you're going to go, wait, I have fallen into that with the little tournaments I've played. It's like why, if I see a group backed up on the next T, why am I rushing over this five foot put? Like I'll take my time on it. So it's not so writing that into rules is like making like a legal case. It's, it's really difficult to have something that's going to apply to all situations. So the wind gust you talked about, if a fan screams, if a cart comes down, the it's like, what are you going to write that into a rule?

If a fan makes this decibel of noise, then you're allowed to back off and get the reset. Are you timing everyone's shots everywhere? It's not going to be possible. It's just freaking hard to navigate. It is. I played with Hideki Matsuyama Saturday, 2013 Open Championship. We're he's playing great. I think he's in fifth place. I was playing really good. I think I was in 16th place. And we're finishing. We played this round in three and

half hours. Never saw the group in front of us. Never saw the group behind us. Seventeen's kind of an awkward par five, and Hideki was left off the tee, walked all the way up to the fairway, had to cover a couple of pop bunkers, walked back, he took forever to hit this shot. I lay up, rules official, RNA guy comes out and he says, that's a, I think it was in one strokes, pace of play, it may have been two at the time,

and I freaked out, Hideki didn't speak much English at that time, and I felt like he couldn't defend himself. So we get into the scoring trailer, and I'm like, this is ridiculous. We played in three and a half hours. The group in front of us didn't, we didn't see them, but the group behind didn't wait on us one shot after the third hole.

And I said, I'm not signing a scorecard. I'm against this, and he's like, well, if you don't sign his card, we're gonna disqualify you. And I was like, well, this is, I said that, but he got me to say it because he said, Hadecki took three minutes and 35 seconds to hit that layup shot. Do you think that's a fair amount of time? And I looked at him and I said, no, I don't think that is. And he said, I would have given him a minute and a half. I would have given him two minutes, but as soon as he got over three minutes,

he's like, we had to deliver the penalty. So I had a lot of respect for the decision because it is ultimately with the rules official. It's a judgment call. If they're timing a guy and they're on the clock and you see him, whatever, it's 45 seconds, if you see him get one to 46, you're like, okay, I'm gonna let him slide.

But if he gets over a minute and a half, two minutes, you've got to deliver the penalties. And I think rules officials are maybe a little bit scared to dull those out, but something that needs to happen. That's interesting. If it be, I'm almost more in favor of making it a total judgment call than writing the rules specific around it. Because I think maybe the rules officials are too hamstrung by how it's written and how hard it is to enforce that. And if it's truly egregious, I remember,

it was Alex Noren was either in a playoffer, was really close, it's a 72nd hole at farmers maybe four years ago or something like that. And I forget, maybe as JB Holmes or somebody took forever in the fairway before, in an ice, like two and a half minutes to hit a shot or something in an 18, an ice Noren before he was going to go hit his shot if I remember right like that that right there I can we all saw it on TV throw the penalty flag like that's that shouldn't be allowed but then it's like then however how many other two and a half minute weights are are not penalized and are not seen and and all that and yeah it's got to be equitable in the guys that are on TV more like tool man, which is my favorite nickname that you'll have Patrick Cantlay.

I'm not going to speak to him being a slow player, but he's on TV all the time. So we see him more yet. There are plenty of slow players at the back of the bus that we don't we don't see. So it's got to be equitable. But the rules officials know who the guys are and they they they target him and they know that they have the hit list so to speak. I love what Kepp gets said several years ago and he's playing the slow player. He'll go and sit in the toilet for five minutes and just like wait until the group gets behind and then all of a sudden that guy has to speed up like he has no no choice in it right? Because like I've been there where it's like I've played with the dude that took two and a half minutes on like almost every shot in one of the rounds And I finished out on 18 before he made it up to the green like I was so pissed off like it It's the only people that actually care about it are the fast players and that's the part that sucks But yeah, because when the fat when the fast player gets on the clock They play faster when the slow player gets on the clock they play faster too and oftentimes play better

But it's not the job of the fast player to But it's not the job of the fast player to maintain pace for these knuckleheads that don't know how to get it down on reality too It's like again the usch studied pace of play greatly and it's like you can Institute wide sweeping changes and gain like eight minutes around or something like that smaller field sizes would do a lot It would do a lot. It's a it's a traffic problem green speeds contributing walking backwards to tees as a problem You know, it's just a lot of contributing factors that lead to lead to slow play. But what is your kind of your, I know we've talked about this a lot on this podcast, but can never get too many perspectives, perspectives on it. The proposed model local rule from the USGA on basically essentially rolling back distance

about probably, you know, summarizing very briefly, but about 5% proposed for 2026. What's your reaction to this as a 12 player? I'm fine with it. I think it's something needs to happen. I view it. I'm concerned for club manufacturers. You know, I played Title of Spall, which I know you guys are part of that team now, but I played a title of Spall my whole career. I know exactly how far it goes. They come out with these white boxes and have players test them, test the cover for how they're sharing. And so now, if you've got this ball that can't really be improved, what does that do to

title us? How are they going to sell golf balls to the general public now? So I'm concerned about that. And where do you draw the line with competitive golf? Like my son's 14, is it high level junior golf? Is it high level amateur golf? I don't like the way it's written. I think something needs to be done about distance. I wish it would be a, this is not going to be a popular opinion, but I love the game. A golf has rules for all competitive golfers

play by the same rules. So I would love to see a, you know, your 18 handicapped that shoot 120, he can go get a condor ball and hit it as far as he wants because he's not dropping from his knee either. He's not taking proper penalty drops at any point, but I wish it would sweep across the entire landscape of competitive golf across the world. Because if it started in college, then all of a sudden, you're 18-year-old kid that flies the ball 330 yards in the air, you know, your seven iron goes 185. Now you step onto the tee at Virginia Tech and your first event, and you're hitting the ball 310 yards off the tee. Now your seven iron goes 173 yards. So I feel like you'd have to completely relearn your

game. That's my only issue with it. But distance, it's absurd how far guys are hidden. Yeah, I think, okay, what's your reaction to this? Because I play golf, I've played golf at, you know, at Harding Park when it was 45 degrees out. And I've played golf a few weeks ago or a few months ago in Phoenix. And it was 85 at a little bit of elevation. And the difference in the distance is about the same as what's proposed in the rollback, right? And five and third hole of playing in the cold environment, like I know if it's it was seven, I hit six, right?

And pros are so insanely good. You take your track man's out to every event when you go to Colorado. You know, you know, how exactly how far it's going to go. And guys figure that stuff out really quickly. So that that part doesn't seem like as big of a hurdle to me is like what you said on how you where you draw the line is freaking complicated. It really, really is. Yeah. Trackman's made that whole lot easier. Switching and that's such a great point about playing an altitude. I've always had a good caddy.

It was great with numbers. And he would just give me sea level numbers. So I never really did those calculations. Math isn't my strong point. but yeah, the competitive, the competitive aspect, like if you're a if you're a high level amateur player and you win the USM and you've played nothing but that ball your entire life and then all of a sudden you go to the masters, US open, open, shaping chip, and now you're now you literally are playing a different game and there is an adjustment and it's not just the distance but it's the spin rates that you're getting in the shots you're able to hit. So it would be nice to have some consistency through the competitive game.

That's my take. I agree with that. The complication is going to come from like, all right, man, I have, from my whole career, I know when the wind is in off the left and I got to get to a back left pin and I, it's a six iron and I know how to flight the six iron and do that is a different thing than hitting a stock driving range shot, right? In competition hitting that shot, it's very different than, you know, is that ball with different spin characteristics float a little bit more?

Does it pierce through a little bit more? Does it fade a little bit more? A little less? That is what, that's the margins you guys play under, right? It's really is that fit. And I think it would be a great thing for, but they're talking about like the LPGA not adopting it. The champions tour not adopting and I'd, I'm, I'm fine either way. If they do it or if they don't do it, I just golf would be way more fun with a

spinnier golf ball being able to bring some shot making back in. I thought you all's episode with Rory was great. And I loved his perspective. If the PGA tour doesn't adopt it, but the major championships do, he's going to play that MLR ball constantly. I mean, we'll see if that actually happens, but I thought that was great perspective out of him. And, you know, the research does show that the longer players are going to benefit, the better players, the longer players are going to benefit from this. So I'm a little bit shocked at the outrage from some guys, but yeah. I can tell from my own surveying and judging the, you know, I guess Mike

Wan has said the same thing to you of what he they've done for what they've learned from different earlier comment periods is the golf rolls are not ready for what I'm about to say next is everyone will benefit from an entire global rollback. They would know what it's a huge hurdle to clear. No one wants to hear that. No one believes that. But I strongly do believe it. If, you know, if it meant you, it played, you played a further up T and your ball went a little farther up less offline. I, I, I really struggled. I know people don't think this, but there's just been like this

little arms race of like, well, the ball goes this far now. So the normal T you should play is this now and stretching the game that way, I find to be not beneficial for people. And I know it's, it's just a tough thing for people to understand except. Well, I play at Quail Hollow in Charlotte. Wells Fargo coming up and I've been a member there 12 years. It used to be 7,200 yards. It's now 7650. And it has to be, we had the presence cup, we've got the PGA in 25. I mean, you have to have that kind of length, but it's absurd what we've done to the golf course to create it. We've lost sightlines. We've had to take beautiful specimen trees that, you know, I'm a big fan of taking trees off of golf course, but on certain dog

legs and stuff, you have to have these things. And it's making course design. I want to go see this place out, PGA, whatever the new spot in Frisco, because that golf courses 8,000 yards. And that is not a sustainable future for the game. And it was at Mike on your show that said, this is not a next five year decision. This is a next 60 year decision.

So I'm fully in favor of a broad sweeping swath across the whole game. That is right up my alley. Yeah. That'll be very interesting to see what happens. But I think it will be, it is going to be messy. I think it, yeah, I guess where I net out is like, definitely something has to be done.

Don't know if this is the answer. It's a little bit of a start. Is it worth everything? You know, all the pains that it's going to cause. I don't know the answer to that, to be honest, but I think it is what they think is the most, well, I'm interested from your perspective, those some of the feedback that I've kind of taken to heart

from people that have way more experience and how it's directed your livelihood is, there's at least that sum level, and I'm curious where you are, a trust issue with the USGA, right? And I think like Jeff Oglevey made the points of like, yeah, the groove issue, like that didn't go great. And like the belly, the anchor band, you know,

they're just kind of like, all right, were those two home run rulings? I don't know if they were. So what are the chances they get this right? I'm curious what your reaction is to any of that. So my grandfather was secretary of the USGA. He served on the executive committee for, I don't know, eight, nine years back in the 80s, refereed a number of masters and US opens. And I'm a huge fan of the USGA. They, from a tour players perspective, we have no idea what

they do for the game of golf in the United States. It's not just about golf at the highest level. So that, I hate the perspective of most tour players when they talk about the USA. And the belly putter, I'm sad for guys like Carl Peterson and Tim Clark, because the broom shouldn't have been outlawed. But Tin Lingguan, I believe, was his name. He was the Asian Amnor champion. He was 14 or 15 years old, playing in the masters,

never had put it with anything in his life other than a belly putter. So I think the decision by the USDA was, we don't want kids growing up with this anchoring method. If they, you know, if players just came to it later in life because they struggled with the yips or whatever it may be, that's fine. But the best players are, oh, I mean, look at Adam Scott now, his putting stats are actually ridiculous with his unanchored broom. Web Simpson's done a great job of reinventing the wheel a few times in his career. And I think the USGA is looking out for the best of the overall game of golf and they don't really particularly care what PGA tour players think about their decisions. That's true. It's funny to me how One thing I've just grown to recognize is like tour players are spent they they could see exactly what's right in front of them Right, they they could see how it relates to and affects them directly and they're very willing to speak a lot

Some of them are very willing to speak on that from that perspective without maybe getting a full some of them are very willing to speak on that from that perspective without maybe getting a full oversight view of that. You're not in your head as I say that so I'm glad to hear that. I'm sure I was guilty of it as well. I mean, I think looking at like how television is produced for Goff and I'm not, I don't want to get into that with you, but so I my first event on my first event on the ground was Puerto Rico and our entire production staff was back in Stanford, Connecticut, probably 20 people working back in Stanford, the producers, directors, everybody. And we still had a crew in Puerto Rico in an opposite field event.

I'm not going to say it's a nothing event because I love that tournament. But there were 60 people on the ground, cameraman, Mike people, runners, you know, we have the talent and all these people doing this job and just to beat your point about tour players having a very direct line. Like every tour player needs to come in and see what it takes and how many people are out there trying to make their product the best they can.

And I just, yeah, tour players are very, as they should be, I mean, you're playing for eight to $20 million a week and there's a lot on the line. You should be focused. But I think having a broader perspective and I think younger generation, they don't understand the value of a pro-AM either. I think a Wednesday pro-AM. And I love hearing you speak about your Pebble week with DA points in Chris Stroud, a couple fellow mules. But you spoke so highly of the way they, you know, that's what we do. That's our job.

That's how we get sponsors. That's how we raise money for our purses and everything. And I'm worried that with the amount of money coming into the game, that that's going to be a lost art with the professional world is how to handle programs, how to help your guys, how to make it four or five of the best hours of their life because they're out there playing a PGA tour event with a tour pro. That's, I've been fortunate to play in a fair amount of pro-AMS. I guess as a kid, or I don't know where I got this in my head, that that tour pros had

no patience for pro-AMS hated them. And maybe you do. But it, I guess, may have grown up going to the memorial and watching guys come through it. It didn't feel very interactive. It felt very transactional just watching it. And I was been blown away by how great, not just with me, but like how great the, all of the guys have been and helping, having conversations, asking questions

and being a good host while preparing for a tournament. I know it's very challenging, but that part has actually been a little bit revealing to me of how well that's handled by a lot of guys. I know some guys aren't good at it, but VJ VJ was the first. He shook their hand on the first tee and shook it on the 18. It did not say much, but yeah, that's tough. That's tough. But no, I think it, to your point, I guess, I remember going to, I don't know which event it was, I remember going to a bunch of events in 2017, just being blown away by what you just said of how

many spotters are out there, how many guys you got are just running around in the heat and hustling their butt off to get these golf shots filmed and all that. That's where a lot of our angst was coming from was like, man, I see these efforts you guys are making and they're just airing commercials right now, right? Like, they're in commercial right now. They're not showing these shots that you're going out in hustling and filming and I think golf coverage has come a long, long ways in recent years. It's coming into the 21st century. If I'm going to say what they listen to you all, I mean, I know from personal experience,

I mean, a lot of a lot of the power, the higher ups in the TV golf world that y'all's criticisms are fair, but at some point it's still a business. You have to pay the bills. Commercials are part of it, as you know. Hi, noon, but they could do a better job delivering it. And when I was walking in Puerto Rico, I was walking with Oxe Batilla on Sunday, and I felt like every time he was hitting a great shot, I had to call it on tape to lay, because we were coming out of a commercial and it just seems like there is a cleaner way to do things

but I'm not even gonna pretend those producers and directors, there's jobs. It's blown my mind. I didn't even know what a producer did until six months ago and I've been fortunate to get to know a lot of them and it is a crazy hard job. It's ridiculously hard and that's where I feel like

my only, one of my only few regrets in all of the feedback that we've given is like not being clear as to where the issues are and maybe it feels direct, to be clear, some issues have been directed at producers, but for the most part, it's, I should have wished we'd been more clear about setting the stage for the challenges that are inherent in doing their jobs. We were really hard on the NBC broadcast at Bay Hill,

but I threw in a line. Thankfully, it was just like, it's not Tommy Roy's fault, right? It's a commercial load problem that he's got to work around. And that's a different kind of critique that I think is maybe more understood, if you will. It's more fair, if you will, because there are extreme challenges. And I just feel like golf is on its way.

There's some weeks that it doesn't feel this way, but I don't want to sit in time. How long you're in commercial, right? I don't do that when I watch the NBA. But like, if the NBA was completely unwatchable because the commercial load, I would just not watch it, right? So it feels like golf is trending towards, it's upsetting me less how the breaks and the flow. And I feel like that's a good thing for everyone involved. The problem with golf and how it's so different than the NBA or NFL is that if you're watching an NFL or NBA game, you've got wall stops, the ball stops to right. And in golf, like there's on a Thursday, Friday, there's 156 and on the weekend, there's 65 to 80. And you just, it has a lot of challenges.

And you're dealing with a 200 acre piece of property too with antennas and cameras everywhere. I'm blown away how they do it. And that's to my point, like I think two or players need to go out and spend an hour and go through the production truck and see what goes on and how many people are doing it. What's a reminder every time I watch the Masters,

I'll get my, you know, I had the broadcast on, but I'll get my four screens going, you know, on my computer. And then it's like realizing how fast the action happens, even though even with the slow play, like how much stuff's all happening at once and like getting that all that through a broadcast feed is, is quite a challenge. It really is. So a curious hypothetical for you. I can go any any wish direction with this. I don't know if you'll name names on this or not,

but it'd be fun if you did. But what would live have looked like if it came about in 2012, 10 years before it did come about, but pretty peak time in your career. But I'm curious, what would live have looked like? Who maybe would have been, who maybe would have been the guys that have gone? What kind of a wrinkle would that have been like in the pro golf world in 2012? I think I'm getting old. I gotta look at some books back here. I think Bubba still would have probably gone. I don't think a guy like,

I think Sneds won the FedEx cup that year. I don't think a guy like Brent would have gone. Rory still, I've actually put myself in that shoes and thought about what my decision would have been. And I think my parents, my brother, I think would have led me in a direction to where I probably would have been considered maybe a tailored Gooch type of player back then. And I just, I love the game so much. I don't think it would have been something that I would have, I would have considered it,

obviously, but, man, who the, like Lee Westwood probably still, I mean, it would have been Sergio Leeds. It's, it's, it basically is the 2012. Yeah, it's like crop of best players with the exception of like Bryson DeChambeau. I don't know what that guy was thinking personally like one major was changing the game. I know he was dealing with injuries, but a guy like that was he really just done with playing great golf. Like he seemed to be a guy that loved the game. I was shocked that he ended up leaving because nobody changed it like he was changing it since

Tiger. How do you do you feel any different about it? Maybe from a year ago, I guess he hadn't started as of a year ago yet, but you know, they're coming off the live Adelaide event. We're recording this for the listener's sake before Singapore has been played this coming weekend and we're releasing this episode the week after that. But has anything changed for you and how it's evolved or any perspective on it?

I'm totally fine with the guys that went for their decisions. I still have some issues with them trying to soothe their way back to the PJ to our few of them. And I have so much respect for the guys that didn't. I'm good friends with Harold Varner, the third. We play a lot of golf back home in Charlotte. And I wish everybody had handled it kind of the way he did. I still think it's I think it's gone. And you called me out for my quote with Colton Drew on subpar, but about resuscitating. I just don't see it being around in two years.

There's not enough tread. I think the tour's done a good job of, they're going to retain their top players. And if, if, if lives not going to make it, even if they get high level college talent, they're not going to make it without some of these top 20 players in the world. And as we go further and further,

we're going to see these guys time out of the world rankings. I don't think under any circumstance, should they get world ranking points given their current structure. I think it's gone and I think it's gone in a year and a half. All common sense would point to that, right? But there's been so little common sense in all of it that I'm just like, you know, if it comes down to just light and more money on fire, they've showed a willingness to do that, right? It, it, you know, does the bill come do in, you know, in the air after two, like, I know a lot of the deals were four year deals.

So is that, you know, is that when it would end? I struggle to see how it would end, right? Because it's not something that they're not going to play lame duck golf. I think if it does end at any point, it's going to end quickly, right? And, you know what I mean? It's, it's going to be over and a plug pulled more than it is. Like, this will be our last season. They're not going to go out and play that.

When I've heard they've stopped burning the amount of money that they were burning last year, they're not letting that, you know, you obviously know, but the teams aren't, aren't getting flown on private jets. They are now responsible for their travel. The caddies are responsible for their travel. I've heard the food and player dining's gone down hill. They've laid off a bunch of their high paid executives, even from like, I think all the audio texts and cameraman and stuff that we're working, we're getting benefits. That's all been taken away. So I think we're starting to see them pull the financing back already. Do you think there's any truth to the fact that if a player wanted to get out, it's, they have to pay back three times their, their signing bonus?

Not a lawyer here, but literally read that. I was like, I bet that's in the contract. I believe that. I don't see how you enforce that. That doesn't seem enforceable. And I don't know enough about British law or where that would get tried or any of that. But that's above my pay grade,

but I don't think that's gonna happen. Don't you think that's terrible advice given to these guys that sign a contract that said that? I mean, I find that shocking that I don't know if I could, if I was getting $10 million signing bonus to go play and end that contract, it said, if you want out before the term, you have to pay back $40 million. That seems ludicrous to me. I don't think there's any ways true.

I think it's a way to, you know, when you dangled $100 million or whatever it was in front of Brooks Capka, it's a way for that to look pretty darn appealing. You know, that part looks a lot more appealing when you're getting a huge check in your bank account and say like, look, that's where it's like, again, the like what you alluded to there

and where I've had a lot of the problem is just the, do just go play, go get your mind, like everyone can understand the decision. Truly everyone can be like, you know, pay a shit ton of money to play a little bit of golf. And that makes a lot of sense for a lot of people. I guess trying to have it all these both ways in so many different, so many different ways is what it becomes really frustrating about. So they all talk, they all talked about one in more freedom and lighter schedule, but look at their schedule. They got 14 events.

They just flew, I've played the nationwide tour in Australia three times. It is a torturous flight down there. And then they're going to Singapore. They're flying all over the world. And if you're in the four majors, that's 18. Do they even really want to play PGA tour events on top of that? It just, it seems like for guys saying they wanted a bunch of freedom with their golf game. It seems like they're pretty bound and tied to something that wouldn't

be a very appealing schedule to me. Yeah, it's kind of just taking this long to dawn on me of how ridiculous the thought would be that now they've signed up for a league and events they can't skip. They're not allowed to skip them. You can't, like, can't get releases to go play in other events, opposite these events, and wanting to sue your way back into cherry pick events on another tour. Despite it being, it's also against the rules on that tour, it's kind of the ridiculousness is like, it may be understated in this whole thing. And that's where like, the people that are supportive of this, I'm amazed, you know, of your season tour pro. There's no part in your mind that's ever been programmed.

I think that you can do whatever you want. If you're a member of this tour, is that right? It's right. I remember Ryan Palmer, they used to be called the Calloway Pro Am out at Pebble Beach. It's every November. It's the week before Thanksgiving, when McGladrie or RSM in Seattle and was first created,

Ryan tried to get a release to go play the Taylor made pro-am which he had played his entire career and because this was a new PGA tour event the PGA tour did not grant him a release to go play a domestic event opposite one of their events. It's what happens. They've been I have got a release to go play the Dunhill links one year. Got a release to go play the Dunlop Phoenix in Japan. They're really good about giving you releases to go play international events, but they're very clear about domestic releases, and you sign up for that when you become a member and to thank... and Jay Monahan's messaging for three years, four years leading into the creation of live was go if you go, but know that you're not

going to be welcome back when you try to come back. It's and the guys that thought they could have their cake and eat it too, that baffles me because you only get three releases annually anyways, right? That's sound I have never had to ask for more. So what is your, you know, both from a commentator standpoint and a tour player standpoint, your evaluation of how the PJ tour has, maybe we can zoom out a little bit now that things have moved on from past live for the past nine months or so, but how the PJ tour, Jay Monahan, have led the tour through this crisis.

It's been a bit of a roller coaster, but I think we're in a really good spot. Like we were talking about before, the designated events are delivering each and every week. We're getting mostly Scotty Sheffler and John Rom wins, but I thought Kurt Kiyama's win was incredible at Bay Hill with that field. That was important, I think. That was that showed it's not just top guys that are winning these things. But I mean, Kurt, if he he would he would have done as well. He would have been top 50 last year's FedEx Cup. So he would have been in him anyway. But yeah, I think it's incredible. I think we're getting great events.

I think the health of the tour. I probably won't pay a ton of attention to Mexico this week, but I played that event last year. It is long. I, it was a great event, wonderful resort. But I just, that golf course was not built for me. But I'm watching so much golf. I think the PGA tour, even the Honda Classic.

I thought Chris Kirk's win over Eric Cole. It was, it was, it was heartwarming. And I only probably watched the last two and a half hours on Sunday. Didn't, I knew where Chris was and, and wanted to see him and pull it through. But I think the PGA tours in really healthy spot, I think the lower level events in the summertime have always been really low level events, but now that only 70 guys make the playoffs in 50 or basically exemptions and designated events I think we have a chance to see some guys that are outside the top hundred names that we wouldn't normally see play the

John Deere classic the 3M the rocket mortgage. So I think in a sneaky way these summer events are gonna be better than they've ever been So I'm actually gonna be working a lot of them. So I'm hoping to, hoping to see some big names. For whatever reason, and this is just maybe my newfound PGA tour fandom shining through, but like the, the designated and non designated has made it easier for me to know what my investment level is in the tournament. And it's helped me enjoy the non designated events more, right? Instead of like me flipping on the Zurich and being like, oh, this event sucks. Like, again, just big as a golf fan.

Now, it's like, I know what this event is. And for what it is, it's established to be. I'm going to enjoy it for that. Instead of comparing it to the previous week, which was, you know, whatever it was. That's easier for me to comprehend, I think. I was working PGA to a live last week for the Zurich, and it was a long week, but I find joy

and no matter what the events are, I think there's always great stories to tell, but I've heard you perspective on that, and it's a great perspective to have, because it's so true in this summer, when you're on vacation with your family, and you're like, oh, the John Deers on Sunday, let's watch the couple hours,

you're gonna be delivered with a fantastic finish without having to put in three days of television watching to get to it. Yep, that makes a lot of sense. I've said this a long and I haven't really been challenged on it, but I would welcome you to challenge me on it to say like, whatever changes we're gonna come to the tour in this, from this, the status,

it was never gonna go back to how it was. It was never, the status quo was not an option. So there's going to be changes. What are they going to be like? And I feel like a lot of the pain in the change has come from some, some willingness to, unwillingness to evolve from that status quo. I wonder what your reaction is to any of that. About four years ago, they tried to get us to limit the number of exempt cards from 125 to 120.

Make the second playoff 60 in the tour championship 30 and we all through all of us mules through a fit. We wouldn't let it go through that 125 number is a serious number and I'm very happy to see it still relevant this fall. And so you'll have this fall series of whoever, 71 to 125, whoever wants to play, and that number still matters. I'm happy to see that number matters. And the playoffs, you know, it makes sense. Not every team in the NFL makes the playoffs, seems like every team in NBA makes the playoffs

these days with the play in, but I think having the 70 to 50 to 30 makes it that much more meaningful when you make the playoffs. My rookie year, it was 144 played the first event. And that's too many. That's more guys than are keeping their job or play. So I think the evolution of the FedEx cup, I think it's trending in the right direction. I wish we could do something better with the tour championship. I don't love the format. I know it's cleaner when you look at it on a Saturday, Sunday, but I wish that could get fixed again. But I think the tours, I think Jay Monahan's leadership and Tim Fincham was brilliant. But I think anybody could have done his job when Tiger Woods was in Tiger Woods. And when Jay joined the tour, he was out

the first 15 to 20 weeks. He made it a point to know every player, every caddy's name, and he would just walk the range for three, four days. And I don't, there's been a lot of talk about not with you. I'm not saying that, but there's just been a lot of talk with this whole live thing that he's handled it poorly. And I think Jay Monahan is one of the greatest dudes I've ever been around. I hate to see how much he's aged in the last year and a half. He's gotten pretty gray, but I just think he's taking the tour in a really good direction. We've got a great group of independent directors on the board that are savvy business people. And it's all making sense.

That's where I feel like I'm probably on, you know, in the big, the huge scale of considering all golf fans out there, probably in the upper echelon of maybe of the top 1% of understanding what the commissioner's job is yet at the same time, I think I understand about 1% of what a commissioner's job is, right? So it is, I find it extremely hard to comment on how things have gone on without, you know, one talking with players that know a heck of a lot more than I do about it. Like, hey, what do you think I've asked 15 of them, I'm probably how say, how's Jay doing? How's how safe is his job? How does this look? And like the overwhelming considerations kind of like, I mean, well, it's challenging. It's very tough, but like,

it's no one's running through the door for him. But at the same time, like, like, he's, he's our guy. He's the guy that's going to lead us through this. And I guess where I always default back on is an enormous irrational actor has been thrown into the mix of this. That's you know, I'm still in that phrase directly from him as I defend it. But PGA tour, DP World Tour, all of them have to make the dollars and cents make sense. All that has to work, right? The bottom line has to, you know, the expenses can't be greater than the than the than the income

and the other competitor does not have to play by those rules. And that's fighting with multiple hands tied behind your back in this atmosphere. And I think not enough people maybe view it through that lens to be like, do this was really freaking hard to navigate. It's not done. They're not done navigating it. And it will continue to be hard,

but they're just playing under two different sets of rules. Well, think about his job, Jay. And I know you just had Keith Peleon. Think about their job. You've got 170 members. God. You're never going to, but you're never going to make everybody happy. It's like a club pro at a club with, you know, 800 members. That is such a hard job because, yeah, maybe 75% of them love you, but the other 25 are the ones making the decisions and they can't stand you. You're out. And like to please everybody. And I think Jay may have tried to please everybody when he first came in, but now he's realizing he can't. And it's probably a good

thing that he's, I mean, it's not probably. It's definitely a good thing. He's starting to listen more to those top players. I don't want to see him have too much power, you know, being, being a, you know, stinky, dirty mule. But I do think, I do think the tours head into good direction and it's nice and it's sad because this is what Phil Mikkelson wanted, right? He wanted the top players to have a little more say in what goes on, but he never ran for the policy board. He could have been in that room and chose not to be. Yeah. I struggle with the with the Phil was right sentence when people say it because it's usually

it's rooted in some correctness, right? There was change that probably needed to happen yet. Again, the way I've gone about it was maybe the most destructive, you know, to draft it up, But again, the way of going about it was maybe the most destructive, you know, to draft it up, you know, draft it up the legal ease behind the new league was, yeah, that's probably not the best way to be productive of the PGA tour. Oh, and watching him, I mean, I lived and died through all his major losses when I was growing up. And then, you know, to now look at him in the light that I look at him now, it's kind of a hard pill to swallow.

What a ridiculous master's performance. That is maybe the most unexpected thing of all of the things we've seen in the last several years, even more unexpected him winning Kiowa. Like, dude, there was no sign of life for any of that. It's it's he was he was drafting Jordan that whole Sunday. And I'll I'll I'll love me some Jordan's beef, but he was drafting Jordan Sunday. And then he pulled the Ricky Bobby slingshot around the back. That is incredible. So man, this was a lot of fun. I can already tell we're going to need to have you back multiple to have to have you pop into live shows and and help provide perspective. But greatly appreciated stuff you've done with golf channel already to this to this point and enjoy

seeing you on golf central and this was a very fun, lively chat. So appreciate you coming on. Solid. You're the man. I'm a huge fan. Just don't talk so much smack about me next time. Oh, you were talking smack about us, too. Now, come on now. It's a fair trade here. Done. I'm glad we had it out.

This was great. And you're open to new perspectives as I am always. Appreciate the time, and we'll do it again sometime. You got it. It's gonna be the right club. Be the right club today. Yes! Yeah!

Yeah! That is better than most. How about it? That is better than most. Better than most! I'm gonna go. I'm gonna go. I'm gonna go.

I'm gonna go. I'm gonna go. I'm gonna go. I'm gonna go. I'm gonna go. I'm gonna go. I'm gonna go. I'm gonna go.

I'm gonna go. I'm gonna go. I'm gonna go. I'm gonna go. I'm gonna go. I'm gonna go. I'm gonna go. I'm gonna go.

I'm gonna go. I'm gonna go. I'm gonna go. I'm gonna go. I'm gonna go. I'm gonna go. I'm gonna go. I'm gonna go.

I'm gonna go. I'm gonna go.