No Laying Up - Golf Podcast - NLU Podcast, Episode 714: Martin Ebert previews Royal Liverpool

Episode Date: July 13, 2023

Ahead of the Open Championship we're joined by Martin Ebert, a UK based golf course architect who helped Royal Liverpool through several major changes to the course ahead of next week's tournament. We cover all the changes to the course including the brand new 17th hole and get an in depth perspective on the challenges of renovating a seaside links course. We also discuss the effects of modern technology on some of the world's oldest courses and look at potential changes to other Open rota courses. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

I'm going to be the right club today. Yes! That is better than most. I'm not in. That is better than most. Better than most. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to the No Laying Up Podcast. Solid here, got an episode coming shortly with Martin Ebert, a renowned golf course architect who has worked on many, many, many projects that we've seen on television over the years at the Open Championship.

We talk about a lot of that stuff, but most importantly, we talk about the changes that have been made to Royal Liverpool over the last several years in advance of next week's Open Championship. If you're listening in your car, we also have a YouTube version of this. If you're watching on YouTube, you're already in the right place. But layered in a bunch of images of a lot of this stuff we're talking about on the golf course, I know it can be a little difficult to follow that. Some of that when you're on a podcast, but there is a whole video on YouTube,

and hopefully you're watching now, that complements everything and shows the new 17th hole and talks about the routing changes and some of the changes made, and it just helps you visualize everything. So I highly suggest you check that out even if you do listen to some of this in your car because I think it adds an extra layer to it. So it's been an enjoyable kit and some of these up on YouTube.

We appreciate everyone watching it. Watching both places or listening both places, if you don't mind helping us out. Except so it was brought to you by our friends at Walker. Trolley's if you plan to watch a fair amount of the UK British open. Is it so widely known presented by her former majesty, the queen now presented by his majesty, the king, then best to get familiar with the differences in golf, lingo across the pond. In the UK, they don't call them push carts. They call them trawlies. Our friends at Walker Trollies have designed a classic trolley that would not be out of place at Royal Liverpool when Bobby Jones was winning opens the Cape 1.5's

polished aluminum frame and use of waxed canvas and leather create a trolley that stands out all over the course. And now Walker Trolley has come standard with run flat tires. And through the end of the summer, Walker Trolley has its bundle starter package available for $3.99, which includes the Cape 1.5, a sand and water bottle holder, and an umbrella holder. So go to walkertrolleyes.com today. If you want to walk the course in style and bring your game to a new level this summer. Don't you feel the delay? Here is Martin Ebert. All right, Martin, the open championship was last held at Royal Liverpool in 2014.

You've been in charge of making some updates to Royal Liverpool along the way. We're going to talk about a lot of those. But I first question is, what exactly have you done to make sure that Roy Maccarroy will win again? Because a lot of us are counting on that. You know, well, wouldn't it be great if he won that would be tremendous? I would, I would love it. There's nothing more than I would like the worry to win. I don't know. He's going to recognise quite a few of the things

that he saw in 2014 and was victorious over, but there will be some new parts to the challenge. There's no doubt. I think probably my dream with Ricky's latest resurgence is a Rory-Ricky showdown. Wouldn't that be amazing for golf? And it actually takes me back to, I was lucky to referee, that was my first referee experience at the open was at Ross and George's and I was the observer for Ernie, Rory and Ricky on the Thursday, I think it was. That was really special to see the two of those guys with Ernie as well. So that would be brilliant if that could happen. I there's a lot of fun stuff to talk about with some some changes that you've helped

oversee there at Royal Liverpool, some new holes, some new routing. It's I'm a little confused to be honest, just looking at the plans you said. Oh, right. But it's really interesting. It's really interesting. But for the listeners, say can you give us a bit of an idea of kind of your history with the open championship and other projects you've worked on? And I guess I see a lot of similarities with what your history with the Open Championship. Another project you've worked on.

I guess I see a lot of similarities with what you've done here also with what you did at Royal Port Rush, kind of changing it, adding in two new holes. These are ancient golf courses we're talking about, but many changes have been made to them over time, and you've been in charge of implementing a lot of those. I'm wondering if you could give us a run. Yeah, we've been very fortunate, I must say. We now advise eight of the 10 open venues. So that's quite a responsibility.

It's great fun. It's great to work when you think that some of these adjustments will be on show with the world's greatest players and one of the, well, I think the best best event in the world. So there's a lot that goes with that. Yes, so we've been advising at Royal Port Rush, as you say, so two new holes there and quite a few other changes as well to make it ready for the open in 19, Royal Lhythm, Royal Trume for next year, there'll be a few changes there.

I never thought when I started out in well playing golf that that would ever be a possibility, I'd let alone starting out in the business. And it does the same, comes with a lot of responsibility. And I think, you know, really, I guess we, we like to try to understand as much of the history of, of these courses, because it's not changing it for the sake of change or for the open. It really needs to be in the best interest of the golf courses themselves. And hopefully we've achieved that with the various changes that we've made

to, to a lot of the great courses. Do you feel a little bit more empowered, I guess, to make some changes or to make suggestions for changes, either to the RNA or to these clubs with some of the success you've had? And again, for the listeners sake, if you, I've had a chance to see real port rush with and without the two holes that you added in there and the flow, there is remarkable. I mean, that changes, again, it's not the ancient golf course that people have known, but it was greatly improved for the Open Championship. Do you feel a little bit more empowered with some of the successes you've made? I think so.

I think, you know, once you, as you say, once you're undertaking some fairly big projects and Port Rush was, you know, nothing big, bigger really, it had to happen to allow the open to come back. The RNA were very clear about that. And to be honest, a lot of people had said that Port Rush was the greatest 16-hole course in the world. The 17th and 18th were never considered great holes. When we dug into the history, we discovered that in actual fact, Harry Colt, when he redesigned the course, the clubhouse was up in the town. The 18th was his second hole. The 17th was his 17th, and there were two holes on what was called the triangle.

So it was really interesting that it had changed already in time for the open, in a back in the early 50s. So it was great for us to be able to say that to the members. Look, this is not the first time that you've had to change the course. The land that we had to play with there was outstanding. I mean, it was part of the valley course, two of the holes. But we did have to do a fair bit of work to turn out to holes

that would fit into the layout as seamlessly as possible. And it seemed, you know, we were so lucky, really. The land is great. And so I think people have received the holes pretty well. We'll see it again in 2025 for the open, but no, it was a great, it was a dream to work up or us. Turnbri is the other one, we've done a lot of work at Turnbri, maybe five new holes you could say, whether and when the open or go backs another question, but it's still an open venue and

it's a jewel, it's an absolute majestic setting as I'm sure you know. So when people tune into the open championship this week they've seen this course in 2006, they've seen it in 2014. What's going to be different about it this go around? Well there's one major change, Sully, and that is the, you know, what is the new 17th in the open numbering? It played as the 15th in the last open, but that whole has been reversed. That's the biggest change that people will notice, and it is a big change. And it wasn't our concept, it wasn't our thought to begin with. It was the club and the RNA coming to us and saying, we'd like to reverse this whole,

what do you think about the idea? So as the club's advisor, it was great to have that thought put into our heads. Obviously, it needs to be a great hole for the members and the club because they played 99.9% of the time. But it also, I guess, there was that feeling that it could really provide some dramatic moments come the penultimate hole of the open. It's just to describe the scene. We've created a really short par three again, that was part of the brief.

Less than 140 yards, it'd be 135 yards-ish when it plays and I'm sure it'll be played shorter than that during the week as well. And of course, most people think, well, that would be nothing for these guys. But I guess the treacherous conditions around the green or the evil bunkers, the steeps around, you know, that's going to really ensure I think that it will test them. If the wind blows, then it really will be, you know, quite something to see how the players handle it. But hitting the green, that would be great obviously, but if anyone misses the green, and I'm sure even at

100 and 35 yards, somebody will miss the green, that's where the funnel will start. So I guess when you're coming down the stretch, are these great players are coming down the stretch, the nerves, but you know, will be potentially biting. So when you've got to hit a fairly, well, a very small target, otherwise you know that there could be a four or even worse, you know, following. I think that will really grab the attention. Grab the attention of the players. I think it will grab the attention of the spectators and the TV viewers as well. It's going to be a great scene actually. The RNA, I think they've got a tethered drone which they've got behind the green. So that'll just reveal everything as it happens. And I'm sure the

grandstand, which will horseshoe around the tee, there'll be a great camera position there looking out over the green. And the de-estuary light, they at lies on the other side of the green and wells in the background. So it really is quite a spectacle as well. I have had the great fortune of visiting Liverpool, Royal Liverpool two times, I believe. And my mind's already in a pretzel from playing the course and then watching the open because the whole number's changed.

I'm a little bit imbious of the people that will watch the open and only know the routing for the open routing. And then you mix in some of the changes that you're we're going to talk about here. And we were just talking about it becomes even a little bit more confusing. But as I understand it, so then what is now the 17th hole is playing out towards that estuary, as you mentioned, there's going to be views in the background. It's a hole that goes As I understand it, so then what is now the 17th hole is playing out towards that estuary, as you mentioned, there's going to be views in the background. It's a hole that goes out towards the water that once played away and was once a different whole number, right?

Am I just trying to set the scene for folks now so that and kind of what triggers, you know, the numbers of the holes being a little bit off and people may find this interesting or may not. But the first hole actually plays as the third hole. So the first two holes that they play at Royal Liverpool are what were the clubs 17th and 18th holes and are now the clubs 16th and 18th. No, the club is in the 17th and 18th. No, it's confusing.

The club played them in the 17th and 18th. In the open, they'll be one and two. And then the open finishes with the club play the 17-18 in the open, there'll be one and two, and then the open finishes with the club 16th. And it's actually an interesting fact here, slowly in terms of the RNAs major championships this year. The open plays at Hoelake, and as you've described, it doesn't start with the first hole.

The senior open is played at Rawport Call, and that starts with the 18th hole of the club course and the women's open play is played at Walton Heath and they're not playing the first hold at all. They start in the second so we're not sure that's ever happened before. It's a good friend of mine Richard Fisher who came up with that fact and it's quite an observation. But no it does confuse people. There's probably a move at the club, you know, certainly a faction of the members would would love to play the open-rooting but there's an equally, you know club, certainly a faction of the members would love to play the open

rooting, but there's a faction that would love to keep it as it is. The tradition of Hoi Lake going back to John board, Junior is incredible. That first hole, the club first hole that plays around the race course or the old race course, with the out of bounds on the right hand side. It's a fearsome first hole in terms of just that element of nerves, it'd be so easy to knock it out of bounds on the right hand side, it's a fearsome first hole in terms of just that element of nerves, it'd be so easy to knock it out of bounds. So you can understand both sorts of thoughts of, should it be the first, should it be the third?

But I guess when the open's played there and everyone gets to understand the whole numbers, then it would certainly ease the likes of our troubles when we're trying to imagine which holds which. Does the data from the 2014 open help you like it do you have a you know access to to enough data from that time period and and how do you account for distance increases that have happened you know in the last nine years in golf right the bunker placements and all that how does that work in your

process yeah well it's interesting we don't have yeah the the the shot the shot who do the shot link as the PGA? Shot link has it. Yeah, and we've used that with some of our projects over your side of the world. It's been really useful, but we haven't had access to that. So, we're judging it with the RNA guys are extremely knowledgeable, obviously, in terms of hitting distances and how holes play. Guess one of the anecdotal pieces of information

was Rory hitting that drive, and I think it was a five-iron into the par-five last hole on the Saturday. Now, one of the other things that people will, hopefully they'll realize, and I'm sure it'll be made some, you know, there'll be some news about it, is that the re-rooting of the open 17th

allows the 18th to be extended by 50-60 yards over what it was in 2014. So I think that will certainly put a lot of still into that hole, the cut, the outer bounds ridge, which runs along the right hand side of the hole, let's been brought in tighter to the playing line as well. So the players are really going to find 18 is a totally different ball game. They're going to have to hit two amazing shots to reach the green. And I don't think it'll be a drive in a five-line.

But they'll also have to make those decisions on the team. Are they going to play as a, or try and play as a two-shotter if the weather conditions allow? It's going to be a brave guy that takes the driver there, I think, and really nails it with the other bounds on the right and two bunkers on the left. So with both of those holes as finishing holes, it really will, even someone with a four or five shot lead, two shot, three shot swing is quite feasible on 17 and the same on 18.

So I guess that's the modern world. It's nice to have that drama and uncertainty at the end of things. Carl Nusty always provides it with the burn. And I think these two holes have the potential to do that. Whether it'll happen, let's see. But certainly be great fun. I think no one will switch the television off

if someone's got a four or five shot lead. There still could be some changes. I hope we get some wind, man. I really do. I mean, just looking at, you know, just look at the new 17th hole and just seeing exactly how that sits. That would be great if that, the wind was coming off that estuary. Yeah.

No, that tee shot becomes a can you control your distance into that wind and a bunch of those parr-fives as well are going to play a lot, very interesting. Let's say for another factor, actually, on that is another factor on the wind subject. The way the RNA have got it set up, there's a horseshoe grandstand around the tea. So the golfers will be coming through a tumble leads them into that sort of arena. I mean, it'd be a great, the atmosphere there will be unbelievable, I think. So they're coming through there, but that grandstand, that horseshoe grandstand really will hide the winds. They won't be able to feel the

true wind there. There's a big grandstand which has been erected down the right hand side of the hole. So again, that could influence the flag in terms of how that's affected by the wind. So it's going to be quite tough for them to them to judge, you know, just what the wind is doing is assuming that we do get some of a reasonable strength. And so another. If I'm looking at the, what you provided me in terms of the drawings here, do I understand it right that again, this is the 17th short hole 135 year part three that plays out to the estuary?

Do I understand the players will have to walk back the distance of the hole around towards a perimeter of the property to get to the 18th tea. There is a walk. It's not a massive walk to the back tea because we've obviously taken the opportunity to take that tea back from where it was in 14. So it's not a huge walk to the back tea. It is to the main tea. So that's one sort of slight negative for the members in terms of, you know, they do have to walk up, you know, the length of the hole. It's probably about, I'd say it's probably a hundred yards and like that. So, so nothing really, you know, when you compare with some, some walks in various, you know, various courses that you come across. But so it's, it's not too bad. But at the same time, that will provide a bit of drama as well. You're going to have the golfers walking up to 17 while some, you know, walking back to that 18th tee. So you've almost got that little meeting of two groups potentially. So that's another thing to watch out for at the open.

That's really interesting. I'm looking at the draw here and it's that 17th, 18th, 18th, as it stands here, it looked to be pretty dark close to each other. We don't have to wait for each other probably to go. And if somebody's making a charge or if it gets down to those final groups, that's a, that's a really interesting little wrinkled. But for, for people that maybe are not as familiar with Royal Liverpool, say you're a newer, newer golf fan or, you know, maybe don't have a, a photo memory of Roy's win in 2014.

What makes this course special? What makes it worthy of hosting an open championship? Um, I, I really greatly enjoy this course. Maybe that's been greatly aided by the two incredible champions we've seen here in the recent opens. But seeing it up close, it's up there for me. It's I wouldn't consider it to be the most spectacular open venue yet. It seems extremely worthy of hosting it in my mind. Would you agree with that and why would that be? Absolutely. I think the heritage is a really important factor. It has a tremendous heritage, say, John Borg,

Jr. being the first Englishman to win the open. That was his home course. So that's always with that background. I think that really helps. But then I think that coastal stretch, it's, yeah, you're right. It's not regarded as the most stunning as an 18 holes. But when you get up onto some

of that coastal ground and the Alps in particular and now the 17th, there's a really beautiful coastal holes you know, along the shoreline. I think the internal out of bounds, I mean, that's an interesting feature, not everybody's cup of tea. You know, we, again, we discovered that at Port Rush with the OB, we are left and right of one, providing

some room for criticism from some observers, but I think it does, it makes the third hole, it makes the finishing hole, and there's historic evidence, there's a historic reason for that being out of bounds. So, bunkering I think is really, really tough,. You know, he took that decision, was it just one driver in 2006, I think? And he described it as his best ever ball striking week, I think, which says something for Tiger, doesn't it? So, you know, he took the course on in that manner and just decided, right, I'm just going to control the flight of the ball

and not risk the bunkers. But he had the talent to be able to, you know, to make that, that work for him, not everybody could not. No one else I don't think would be hitting those shots in at that length into into some of those greens, you know, given the firmness that the, the course was, you know, was playing with that week. So, so I think it's a, you know, as you say, it's produced great champions, you know, DeFacenza was, I think, you know, the top of his game when he won.

Walter Hagen back in 24. You know, so it's had some great, great champions played who've prevailed over the links. So I think it's a really great solid test to go. Hopefully, the adjustments that we've made will just provide the right level of challenge, I guess, rather than making it too tough. And look again, looking at the pictures that you send over immediately, I see pictures of say the, you know, the 14th hole.

And I think, I think I'm looking at the tee shot on this hole and I say, man, that does not look like just grab your driver and pound it, right? And I'm wondering if you could talk a little bit about philosophy. I enjoy watching tee shots in Lynx Golf. I find it extremely, I find it exhilarating. I mean, it invokes, it can invoke some different kind of strategies. It can invoke a move where hey, hitting a five iron off the tee on a downwind par four might be the play today instead of hitting driver and wedge. There's elements to, hey, I got to make sure this ball stops off the tee, which is not something we see a lot in the States.

Kind of, how do you describe the philosophy of how you are challenging the world's best players off the tee on a link style golf course? Yeah. Well, I think, so they what we really want. It's great when we see people doing lots of different things, you know, in the same conditions in the same group. I mean, I was, I was only a role-port call for final qualifying a couple of days ago. And it was really again, really fascinating to see just how these guys took the course on. And you know, some of the shorter holes, you know, there was a mixture of, you know, ions being played rescues, three woods. And then some guys just took the driver and just tried to get as close to the green as possible, maybe even, you know, reach the green on a couple of the holes.

So a whole like 14, it won't be interesting to see whether someone like, I guess the recent amateur champion, Lamprex, whether he seems to have the approach of taking the driver whenever he can and he's got the, you know, the, certainly the levers to edit monstrous distances. So it would be great to see someone take the course on, but also someone to plot their way around. So I would be great to see someone take the course on, but also someone to

plot their way around. So I guess it just gets a bit dull when everyone does the same thing. So so I think that's what we tried to do. I mean, in turn, we did that with the 10th hole for the 2009 open. The T went down onto the coastline and we made a really wide fairway, but put a couple of central bunkers on the hole. And we did get, we had a shot link for that actually after the open, and it was really fascinating to see that there was a real split of the field, maybe a third laid up, and most of them got powers, and there were some birdies in there. And then two-thirds of the field took the hole on. Half of those guys sort of missed it right, and there were quite a few bogies because, you know, coming into that green wasn't good from there, but the guys that took it on were brave and executed well, you know, they were certainly rewarded with a lot of birdies, so that's what we would love is people to do different things on different holes, so, but it will be interesting, you know, this time is there a sense that, you know, the golfers have become more aggressive in their strategy?

I think there could be an argument for that. Last time when the open was there, I remember speaking with one of the marshals on that open third, the club first, with the out of bounds, you know, such a feature down the right side. I said, oh, is anyone hit the driver and tried to carry the corner? And it came up with two names. He said, yeah, only two people. Darren Clark and Tom Watson, which was incredible. I mean, these two are the older guys, and they just took that all on.

So I'm really interested to know this time whether people be slightly less circumspect and just take that driver and see just how close they can get. I think from what I hear, the weather, the rough was looking good and thickening up nicely because we had some reasonable weather for that earlier on, but I think the recent drier conditions has led the rough to thin out a bit. I think it's still there to a certain extent, but so be it. I would that that could be a factor in terms of how people play their course. Is it fair to say, if you get a little bit thinner rough, that that is going to mean that you're going to get the fast and firm fairways and greens

that are going to, you know, provide some interesting elements of, for me, I personally love, you know, if you guys are hitting shots out of the rough, even if it's wispy, you're not going to be able to generate a lot of spin. It leads to a level of artistry of avoiding bunkers, finding the right contours and getting your ball to go the right distance. That's golf to me and we don't see it enough. No, no. Yeah, when you've got to just judge where you're landing it and allow for the run, isn't that

the best form of the game it really is. I mean, our email address is picture run 18 for one good reason. We really believe in that being able to land it short and short and play different shots around the greens as well. So the good thing about Haleika, James Blege is the course manager and he's doing a great job. He's only been in the position for a year or two, but he's predecessors at a great job as well. And you know, they've created conditions which will allow those greens to be to be dried out and to become as firm as they dare I guess. But obviously, it's always dependent on the weather conditions over here. If we get downpours then they can't, it won't be a deliver quite the test that they would hope to.

But fingers crossed. This episode of the No Lang Up podcast is brought to you by the No Lang Up Pro Shop. That's right, the merch star is buying up ad inventory to put word out that the strap collection has been refreshed. I'm guessing he's hoping this adds to the strap budget. There are already bad faith actors. We know that, but in the shop, we have commemorative t-shirts, posters, and stickers for each strap season as well.

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help. Visit store.noLayingUp.com to update your scripting for the 2023 golf season. We work hard to source high quality and stylish, apperable and we appreciate the support of the ProShop and our content. Again, it's store.noLayingUp.com. Get involved back to Martin Ebert. Getting into some of the specific changes, I'm looking at the fourth hole right now, which is the club's second hole. Usually when we see renovations and

restorations and things of that ilk, we were talking about expanding greens, but from what it looks like, we're shrinking this screen. Is that specific for this open? What's the reasoning behind that? Yeah, obviously the club have to be on board with any of these changes as I say. So, yeah, four, which is the club second, it's a short four. Again, we may see some guys I'm sure we will have an, have an, a go again as close as the can to that green. So there was a feeling that, that for the open that it should demand a slightly, you know, tougher approach shot that

to give the RNA guys who were doing the course set up the opportunity to set those flags a little bit closer to the edges of the greens. The shapes of the green just meant that they had to keep the flag a little bit further into the middle. So they'll have the opportunity now to set it really tight behind the bunkers on the right-hand side. The green's been raised up a little bit, but at the same time as making the green slightly smaller and a little bit more testing for approach shots, we've leveled out the approach a little bit because members who would land the ball short on such a hole, that was complicating their lives. So while making the green a bit tougher,

the whole aim of the game was to make the, you know, the approach shots for members a little bit easier, knowing that the open competitors will be landing the ball on the green, you know, pretty much unless there's, you know, it's a go downwind, in which case, you know, even they might have to learn, it's like you're sure. But so, no, it's a, it's a subtle change.

I don't think people that will have, you know, known, known have to learn, it's like, you're sure. But so, so no, it's a, it's a subtle change. I don't think people that, that will have, you know, known, known, or like before, will go there and say, oh, you know, what's happened to us and complete transformation. So, so, so, it's more of a subtle change there, I think, so I mean, then, then a, then a major one. But, what I find interesting is I, I feel like there's a, a common misconception in golf when people talk about either if you're talking about the distance debate If you're talking about scoring if you're talking about conditions if you're talking about set up all these things that

You can make the the open championship the USGA the masters they can make the scores as high as they want You can put the pins in absolute corners of every degree You can make it hard for the sake of being hard and you can have the scores rise if that's what you want, right? And I think that there's a different aspect of this championship, which I greatly appreciate that isn't necessarily about we want, we played at any kind of level of score or that we want this whole to not be picked apart. There seems to be opportunities for scoring. There's opportunities to make a mess of it. But I wonder if you can talk a little bit about one.

If you agree with any of that assessment, but two, just how, how you're trying to, how you can challenge the best players in the world without it being extremely difficult in relation to par. Yeah. No, it's an interesting comment. And maybe I will just make my observation on that. I think they are so good now that it really is quite tough to almost produce a course that is, is going tough to almost produce a course that is going to

definitely produce high scores. I mean, I know St Andrews is a totally different animal and it played so firm and fast and short because of the firm conditions, but you know those green, those flags have been tucked away, you know, in really, really, you know, as tight as they could be in many cases, and still, they manage to prize their way into into some of those flags. So it is tough. I think it's tougher with our links than it probably is in America,

you know, where I guess you can always resort to the really, really, really thick rough. Here, we're very much more at the mercy of nature, as I say. So I think that is a little bit of a difference. But you're right. I think the attitudes, certainly for the RNA were on the open. I don't speak for them by any means.

But I think it very much is if the guys are playing well, then we're more than happy to see good scores and low scores. No problem with that. They really want, I suppose, the cream to come to the top, the best player for that week to be the champion goal for of the year, obviously. So I don't think there's any concern about low scores, but at the same time, you want that exhibition of skill to be at such a level that everyone is wowed

by just how good they are. And we are, aren't we? I mean, they are just incredible. Just when they're on form, and that's the amazing thing, I guess, there's so many now that are on form in a particular week that it takes that spectacular performance to come to the top. And that's how I guess Rory's just been picked

at the last two or three majors. So someone else has just had that amazing week. But fingers crossed as I say this week. Well, it's just interesting. I mean, I felt like the PGA championship at Oak Hill, they put the pins in as much bigger corners as they could have they stretch that golf course out It was narrow fairways and thick rough and kept a shot nine under par whatever I get it's still Even with this like these limits

I mean people kind of freaked out over the crazy low scoring at the at LACC in round one There's there's no golf course in the world where if the wind doesn't blow now that these guys won't pick it apart And somebody doesn't shoot 63 62. I mean, I don't I don't know if there's a golf course in the world where if the win doesn't blow now that these guys won't pick it apart and somebody doesn't shoot 63-62. I mean, I don't know if there's a single one. And it would be a shame, if I'm sorry, wouldn't it, you know, to have to grow the rough and make the fairways so high and make the fairways as narrow as possible. I mean, that would take all of the to protect the holes. And I suppose when it comes to the Power 5s, as we've done at Hoi Lake with the 18th, this really will demand two spectacular shots to reach the green into. Whereas, if it stayed as it was, it would be if Roy was driving a

five-line last time, then could it be a six driving, a seven this time. So I think it's it's only right to look at some of these holes and see how they can be you know adjusted without you know without really spoiling the the whole test and the exam paper. So hopefully we've got that balanced right. If I'm looking again at some of your changes here, it looks like the seventh green has moved a fair amount to the left and I think I know the answer to why that is, but can you explain as it's supposed to why that is? Yeah, there was, you know, with seven, it was a well-respected green, really sort of low level.

So there was no real need to change the seventh for the seventh, but, you know, it just allowed more room between seven and eight. And, you know, I think overall it helps. So really, we were just trying to replicate that green, but just slightly further left. just allowed more room between seven and eight and you know it I think overall it helped so really we were just trying to replicate that green but just slightly further left so I guess it you know it does come down to you know it was the the needs of the open for that which some people would would criticize but again the judgment I guess was taken that if it didn't spoil the whole didn't spoil the golf course then you know it was something that made sense to do. But there's no intention

to change really the fundamental character of the whole. Because it's, you know, it is to say it's rather than the green being perched up and whatever, it's very much low level, ground level in terms of its green character. So yeah, I think I was misinterpreting then. I thought it was maybe for a new back tee on eight. I thought we were moving greens for. When I did, it was an opportunity to lengthen as well. But I was going to say that's where we're at in the distance discussion that we're moving greens to accommodate T boxes.

I was like, ah, okay. We might be a little. No, I know. What is I guess your perspective on on the distance issue in golf as somebody that's trying to set up these challenges for players and and you know you work as close as you do with the RNA what I'm just curious what what your perspective is on how you on how things have unfolded and what may happen in the future.

Yeah, I mean there's there's two sides to it in a way without the ball going much further You know, we'll probably be almost regarded as too difficult. You have the ninth now plays across the bay, as you probably know, it's a now part three of 245 yards, I think. It takes a carry of at least 200 to reach dry land on the other side. You know, you'd be a little bit more concerned, you know, if the ball wasn't going, the distance that it is, it's an unfair test, that length, and the 10th hole that follows, you know, the carry from the back to there is really, really significant. So in some ways, it's sort of opened up the door for that, but, you know, on the whole, you know, I have to agree with the majority of commentators that it's making life

extremely difficult for these golf courses, which have great heritage, great holes and all of a sudden they're becoming drive and don't flex into intergreens when they used to be drives and five iron or something. So, I think it's definitely the right way to go to put the brakes on and to reduce the distance that it goes. I would love to know just what impact that would have on ordinary golfers, whether the model local rule that is likely to be applied for major events. What would that do to our T-shirts? Would it be acceptable? I know there was this big concern about, you know, we mustn't make the game

different, more difficult for club golfers and members. And, you know, that's understood. But if it would only make five yards difference, you know, would that really, you know, is that a price worth paying that we all still play, you know, the same ball for events? And I guess my one question is, how do these young guys who are coming up through the ranks and they're playing with the ball that everyone else plays all of a sudden years, that switch over, just how complicated that will be to re-acclimate ties to a ball that goes substantially less, I guess. So let's see how that shakes out. But certainly, if it means that we're not having to keep pushing our bunkers on and taking our teas better than it's got to be, it's got to be a good thing. Because,

you know, you don't want the round to take it longer, you don't want more lands to be used, you don't want more irrigation, more drainage, more maintenance, some of the teas going further and further back. So yeah, that's, that's hope, it is a line drawn in the sand, but you look through history and we've got evidence of people drawing cartoons, you know, showing par threes of one mile, 365 yards, and that was back in 19, 1912, I think. So, it just shows, you know, it's been an issue since the game started. Well, I found it interesting to ask you in particular because if you listen to Mike Juan and I don't remember if Martin Sloanber said this directly as well, but if you listen

to them, this proposed model local rule, Mike Juan would state as close as possible. Like this is going into effect for usGA and RNA events. Like it's going to be an effect for our events. We're the ones proposing it. You can bet as of 2026. This is going into play assuming this, you know, even if none of the other tours or majors adopt it, this is happening. And then so we, if that's the case and we have what 2324 25 three, three open championships left before something is done with the golf ball. And I just, I, I, I would guess you're probably not that far ahead in terms of thinking about 2026, 2728,

major championship or venues because as far as I know, those are not even announced. I'm sure you may have a little bit more inkling as to what we do as where they might go. Yeah, not announced, but certainly there's projects on courses that are likely to host the open beyond 25. And certainly that's something that will have to be born in mind, just where do the bunkers go? Because you do want to, you don't want to take the drive route of these guys' hands, but at the same time, you don't want to be thinking, right, I can carry everything,

I can carry all the bunkers, no problem. That's the last thing that we want to happen. So this year, there's been a couple of bunkers put in at Raw Liverpool on one and 16, and they'll be in at 320 yards from the T. So that's just to make sure that the guys that really can carry it, that would be an extraordinary shot, and I guess with a bit of helping wind. So it just shows the sort of distance. Remember coming into the game and sort of we were putting bunkers in at 252.60 thinking that they were they were in the minds of the better players, but that's certainly gone further and further out as time has gone on no doubt. Back to Liverpool.

It's so the 13th hole feature part three. Tell us about what you did there because the images look fantastic. If you're watching on YouTube, hopefully you can see these right now as well. But tell us about this all. Yeah. Well, the first thing to say, I suppose, is that there's a lot of... Well, how should I describe them as sand areas? I mean, can logically sense two areas. And that... We put some in at 17, actually, and people were saying, oh, why have they done that? You know, it's so different to anything else on the links.

But we tried to explain that it was part of a long-term plan that the club had with the ecologist, Bob Taylor, who was advising them to open up more sand throughout that coastal strip of the golf course. Our links, as you probably know, were a lot sandier in the old days. You could see that the old photographs so much more exposed sand. And in addition, from an ecological perspective,

it's so much more valuable to have that sort of landscape to sort of turn the clock back as it were, much better home for the reptiles, for the birds, the bees, the flora as well, you get different species. So that's all been part of the scheme and that for 13 for the Alps, you know, it's certainly some of the drone shots, you know, that you were referring to Alps, you know, it's certainly some of the drone shots you know that you were referring to, they really does lift the whole scene I think. And they'll colonize naturally so they'll look more and more natural as time goes on. They're not put the green, they were sort of very sort of heavy rough and gnarly ground to the left hand side of the green and it was felt better to have a tightly-mone runoff to the left.

So that's certainly going to claim a few victimsmone run off to the left. So that will, you know, that's certainly going to claim a few victims, I think, you know, for the open and rather than the ball getting held up in the heavy rough close to the green, it will run away quite a lot to the left. And at the same time, there was some very narrow tight swells to the right-hand side of the green and they've been widened out. I think they've just, my minor adjustments on the right hand side, but once again, it won't be just enough to, the recoveries will be fine from right hand side, but still complicated compared to just having a kick off the bank or whatever. So, so it's minor changes and again it's such a great whole, such a great history, you know, one of the most notable pathways on the open road track, then certainly a

whole lake. So, you know, we hope that I guess 17 being that much shorter will be the, you know, regarded as the little brother to the outside, suppose, come the end of the tournament. How much do you think about prevailing wind direction? Is that a thing, a constant theme that you can set an next expectation in this part of the world for summer to say, like, hey, it's probably going to blow in this direction. Or, you know, you've worked a lot of different things. I'm wondering how you approach that at the different places.

You've worked and how that can vary from location location. Well, and I remember, if it was Derek Greene, he was the old course manager when the open was going back to Hoy Lake in 2006. And he said, we never get the prevailing win anymore. That was his description. So it seemed as though it was very difficult to predict just what the win does these days. But certainly you'll be bearing it in mind for any changes that are made and be faced. So on the new 17th, that'll be coming sort of against the player

from the left slightly. So again, that if that does blow in that direction, it would be great, but it wouldn't be great to have different win-deach four days, which I guess is a bit much to expect. So yeah, I think when it comes to bunkering, we do have a philosophy where we bunkered for still or downwind conditions. We almost ignore prevailing win conditions, because if a hole is playing into a really strong wind or even a gentle breeze, it's tough enough. You don't really need the bunkers in that situation. Those may be rare times when the wind blows in completely the opposite direction to the prevailing wind. That's when you do need those bunkers just to ask the right questions. So we do bear in mind very much you know, in general when we're trying to set up the holes, we're thinking how are they gonna play when it's very still or even downwind.

So again, I'm gonna see if I have any of this part right for after we leave the we leave the 13th hole. You play the 14th hole, one of the feature holes as well. Dog like left. We leave the 13th hole. You play the 14th hole, one of the feature holes as well. Dog leg left, par four, that kind of heads back out to the estuary. And previously, 2014, from 14, you would roll into the 15th hole, which was the short par three, they played away from the estuary. That hole is now the 17th playing the opposite direction.

Do I have that right? You're nodding. Thank you. Okay, that's good. So now when you leave 14, you will roll into what was the 16th hole and is now the 15th hole? Do I have that right? Part five.

You've got that right. Yep. That's right. You are. We're getting there. So if you go back and watch highlights of, you know, some of the, I think Roy eagled 16 as well on, on that Saturday, that will now be the 15 hole, and that hole has changed some as well, right? It has, yeah, again, it's another byproduct of 17 coming in the direction that it does,

that it allowed 15 to be taken back onto almost one of the old par 3Ts when the whole, when the par 3 was playing in the other way. So, so that again, it's another benefit, I think, for for back T golf, is that that T's gone back, So that again, it's another benefit, I think, for a back-toe golf, is that that he's gone back, and it's produced another whole over 600 yards. Both of the power 5s on the back 9, 15 and 18 have been strengthened considerably as a result of what's been possible with the reverse of the bar 3. So I think it's a lovely shape of hole, the 15th. As you know, I'll put the green, you know, just a fairway snake snake, so you know, through towards the green. And once again, with the distance that the guys are hitting it, then, you know, just that

addition of 40-50 yards is going to make a real bearing on just how the whole place. Yes, they'll still be getting up in two and they'll still be getting plenty of eagles and birdies. But I guess the really good thing when Power Fives produced some higher scores and you want them to be taking it on and then falling foul or something or other, 18 is very obvious. The cup, the out of bounds will most certainly be

the danger feature. 15 will probably play. I'd imagine a bit easier because there isn't that threat on the whole, but the added length will certainly mean two very good shots and and even three shots, you're going to have to plot your way down a little bit more than you did before. So yeah, good. I think the finish is what it's done to the finish. This whole scheme really will make sure that a lot can happen on those last four hours. And 14 is a great old as you say. 13 is the out.

So when you're asking about how good is Holi? I mean, you just think it's a finish. And you think it's all the way through. That back nine is one of the best. It really is. Yeah, it's great. I mean, yeah. And again, I think I can unpretzel my mind by just saying, you skip the 15th hole, the par three and play it as 17 instead. Right. And it just bombs 15 and 16 up, which was 16 and 17 and then new T on 18. I think I got it. So if the image is help help you get through it. But yeah, that is a, there's a phenomenal stretch. Like you just said, the long par three, 13th, and then the fantastic 14th.

Now the 15th is a par five, which a lot of fans like watching that, 16 will be a, you know, a testing part four, then the short three finishing five. That's fantastic. So tell us a little bit about more about you. You spoke a little bit about the 18th hole on this, you know, this feature of the OB down the right side. I, and if I look at the images right,

it looks like, all right, if I want to have an angle up the shoot to this 18th hole, I got to kind of take on out of bounds, which is a very severe penalty. And often we see pros will take their dispersion cones and point them very far away so that even their farthest right miss won't go into the OB. How do you set up a hole to still entice people to take on risk when there's OB that close on a hole where you want to see some risk reward? What's been the philosophy there? Yeah, I think it will be interesting to see just what percentage of golfers hit the driver there. So Lee, because you know, it certainly has tightened up tightened up a lot on the left.

I know that the rough, you know, to the left of the hole is protected as it can be in terms of golfing traffic in the run up to the open, because I guess that's one thing, you know, the temptation will be to hit it way left. But if they're in the heavy rough then it takes, you know, out of getting up in two out of the equation, I think. But also, I think just that lay-up shot for a second shot, you know, the out of bounds continues all of the way up that right side. And it only sort of just starts to go away from the green a little bit, much closer to the green.

So even then, even the layup shot is gonna be, not without its challenges and you'd need to be pick your line and commit to it. Because the way the greens bunkered with all the bunkers on that left hand side, just sort of protecting the flags which can be tucked behind that side you know definitely the the more right as you say you can be the better certainly off the tee if you can be in the fairway as tight as the the cop as possible then that's the shortest route to the hole and and hide into the green and and likewise for any layup second shot the tighter to the right you hide into the green. And likewise, for any layup second shot,

the tighter to the right, the easier shot will be assuming the greens are nice and firm. So I think it's a great finishing hole. Finishes in a great place. The grandstand around it, it will be a superb scene and come in the open. What can you tell us about the future of Open Championship venues?

If I'm looking at it and the schedule of things, it seems like Lhythm has maybe shifted its way out of it for the men's side of the Open Championship. I'm wondering if you have any perspective on that and say does that come down to footprint? Does the footprint of these championships continue to grow to the point where you need bigger and wider venues with more entry points? What's kind of your perspective on where we see the point where you need bigger and wider venues with more entry points.

What's what's kind of your perspective on where we see the open championship going in the future? Yeah, again, it's for the RNA to sort of get more detail on that, but, but no, in terms of, you know, where we're working on some of these venues, I think the fact that the open has gone all ticket, you in, I guess the R&A can be confident they can sell out any venue. It's just not an issue to sell as many tickets as they like, given, I mean, look at that demand for some Andrews last year. So then it comes to, what is the capacity of each of the venues? And you're right, Lidham is tightly bound with the boundaries where they are, they're not going to change and there are their challenges there. But we have got a cunning plan.

So let's see whether what happens with that. So, you know, because I think everybody respects it as a great test of golf. And again, the champions, we got a semi-winning twice and an early last time. It'd be such a shame if that didn't host another open So fingers crossed we can something maybe in the pipeline there But yes, it's absolutely right. I mean port rush for instance We're going to be you know with open having not been there for so long You have that that issue of you know reviewing how a course plays how a venue behaves

So we've certainly been you know working with the RNA and the club for minor adjustments to the course because it did hold up pretty well for that 2019 open but there's been some adjustments made already, some minor tweaks and there'll be a few more coming this winter in time for 2025. And also the other aspect of Port Rache is to make it ready for some more spectators. It was so popular.

I imagine you were there, you weren't there, I want to shake. But the whole of Ireland just went north to Port Rache. It was fantastic, the atmosphere. So I guess the, you know, if those spectator facilities can be, you know, enlarged without spoiling the golf course and that's always the fundamental thing. And that's spoiling the play of the holes, but also the look of the course. And so that's what we've been working on, you know, with the RNA and the club. And so, you know, things crossed that will happen in time for 25. And Trune, we didune, we did some fair few changes there for next year,

some teas have gone back, which will really just test out the players a bit more on, getting the par-fives and even the par-3s as well. But not the position stamp, that will remain at one, two, eight. No change there. And what a great hole, you know, to have a hole again coming back to linking it with hoi lake, you know, there will be comparisons made with the post stamp and the fact that on the Saturday it was played at a hundred yards. You know, what a what a great spectacle that was and will continue to be.

So, I hope that the 70th of the hoi Lake has that, you know, gets that sort of similar start in life, but post-Stamps obviously been there for a hundred years plus, so it's got a bit of a head start, and what a great old it is. In fact, we had a great project there at Trune, where we've designed a new path recourse, the Kray Gens. They did have a shorter course, and it was shifted over to where the open practice ground lies. So some of the greens of this par three course will act as targets for the open. But it was one of the past captains actually said, well, what about having a replica poster stamp as part of this par three course, which is exactly what we put there. We had all the levels of

the poster stamp. So it's pretty close. The bunkers are slightly less severe, but they're still going to be quite a test to come out of them. So the member seems to be enjoying that. And it gives some of the older guys who maybe can't play the full course anymore, the opportunity to go and still sample the postage stamp. So so yeah there's a few changed my part the Tom McKenzie's and his colleague Mike Howard they're advising at Royal Berkdale as well so that was that was a great commission to win this year so we'll be interested to see what what comes of that. Turnbree we still look at you know making improving Turnbree so that would be brilliant to be brilliant to think that that could get even better.

And Rolson George's a little bit of a way off, I guess, for the open, but we'll certainly be looking at things there as well as Carnusti. So yeah, we're really spot for working on some of these great links, but we just hope people don't think we're great links, but we just hope people don't think we're, you know, that we're respecting them and we're producing, you know, good, good, sensible changes as well. Well, the highest compliment I can pay you is that you have left me with a yearning, not a desire, a yearning to play some links golf right here right now, like looking at all these images and talking about the upcoming open. It's, it's been, I was about to say, it's been a long time since I've been over. It's not only been a little over a year,

but in my mind, it's been a long time because it's, again, I've said it a million times and I'm not the only one that feels this way. But if you've never got a chance to experience things golf, you've not fully experienced the brilliance of the game. And I just love watching the pros compete on these landscapes and greatly appreciate chat with you on the, on the, all the perspective on all the challenges that you try to provide them. This has been great. Hopefully we do it again next year for true. And maybe, maybe we make this an annual thing

for all the, all the updates and changes you made. But thank you so much for your time, Martin, and best of luck. And hope, hope we get a great week next week. Take care. Thank you very much. Thanks, Ali. Get a right club.

Be the right club today. Yes! Yes! That is better than most. How about him? That is better than most. Better than most! Expect anything different?

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