No Laying Up - Golf Podcast - NLU Podcast, Episode 72: Jaime Diaz

Episode Date: March 21, 2017

Golf World’s Jaime Diaz joins the podcast to talk about his writing career, the Arnold Palmer Invitational, Rory’s close call, and some of his recent writings. We also talked about the effects of co-authoring “The... The post NLU Podcast, Episode 72: Jaime Diaz appeared first on No Laying Up. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

One of the first things Mark Leishman mentioned after he won the Arnold Palmer invitation of this week was about how significant the addition of the Calloway epic driver was to his bag. That's back-to-back wins for Calloway with Adam Hadwin and Mark Leishman. There's a trend here. Let's get to it. Let's get the right club. Be the right club today! Yes! That's better than most. Better than most. I Ladies and gentlemen welcome back to the no laying up podcast we have joining us for the first time a long time Writer in the golf game. Hi, may Diaz. He is a senior editor at golf world Wait, do I have that right? Editor-in-chief?

Editor-in-chief of golf world senior writer at golf digest. Hi, how are you? I'm good man. Thank you Yeah, I'm really excited to have you on, man. I know I've been reading you for a long time. I understand there's some people listening that may not be as familiar with your background or how you got into golf writing. So what is your go-to explanation for how you got into the game and how you would describe your career to this point? Well, you know, my dad was a soccer player who never really got it out of his system.

So even when I was a little kid, I was going to his soccer games as he was playing sort of semi-pro in San Francisco where I grew up. And it just was a really sports-minded household, even though I wasn't particularly athletically gifted. I just played all the sports and even as a little kid, I just, you know, and, you know, my generation, I'm 63, that's how we did it, you know, in summary, you played baseball and then in fall, you played football, a little basketball, and then baseball would come around and, you know, golf kind of started fitting in there because my dad, after he finally kind of aged out of soccer, started playing golf all

the time. And I would just go to the golf course with him. And, you know, I was an undersized kid and I, like a lot of kids, I was sort of captivated by how far the ball went and it was just how amazing a good golf shot looked. And my dad was decent, he wasn't great, but he was very competitive and he loved, you know, the short game and putting.

He was kind of artistic about that. So I would just put with him forever, or I would put on the putting for myself. And so I just kind of fell in love with the game sort of from the green backwards. And then I started hanging out at the golf course, picking up the range, working there, actually.

It was called Concord, Muni. It's now called the Ovalo Creek in Concord, California. And also in San Francisco, when we visit a mean, I would play it Lincoln and Harding. I know the first time I ever went to a golf course was at Harding. And I think the first time I actually went to the physical golf course was not to play golf, but because it's known in San Francisco, I think it was in 1961, which had been the first time in about 60 years. So I had a lot of fond memories of golf, just as sort of a little central gathering place for our family.

My uncle played. We used to go, San Francisco was a very golf mind. So I had a lot of fond memories of golf. Just that sort of a little central gathering place for our family. My uncle played. We used to go, San Francisco is a very golf-minded city. And used to have some called the Lucky International later to call the San Francisco Open. And we'd go there. I saw Arnold Palmer, Gary Player.

A lot of people that I ended up idolizing and covering. We used to go to Silverado. There was a San Francisco City Championship. My uncle would take me there sometimes. So, and then I started playing high school golf, and all this time I was sort of gravitating as a reader of sports. I mean, I loved baseball, and I loved, I started to be more conscious of sports writers, and, you know, who wrote about the game in interesting ways and you know it was entertaining to me that the columnist in the in the chronicle Ron Tim Wright and and Wells Twombley in the San Francisco examiner I could tell it was

a certain flare I kind of had a word kind of I won't say it's a gene because I I really do struggle writing but in general I was I gravitated toward the written word as opposed to mathematics and the sciences and stuff. So you know, as I started to play golf competitively, not all that well, but you know, played in high school four years and then played in college four years and played a lot of junior golf. I guess my highlight was my dad and I went in the northern California father and son a couple of times, which was a thrill because we weren't, neither one of us was great, but we were good on that little golf course, which was a nine-hole course called Goal in a Park, and we could

chip and putt, and we were good and matched, and I think we were infuriating as the kind of guys who got it up and down from everywhere. But in any event, I just kept following the game. When I went to University of San Francisco, I played on the golf team, but I was already starting to get out of my golf obsession because but I was already starting to kind of get out of my golf obsession because real life was encroaching and then I went to work at the Oakland Tribune as a copyboy and kind of stopped playing golf because economics and time and kind of what millennials are going through now finding time to play golf.

But I kept kind of reading about it and it was in my, it was just in me to stay with golf in some way. And I, you know, I would really follow the players of the moment. I mean, certainly Nicholas, but I love trivia, you know, I love Gary Player. Johnny Miller was a San Francisco guy and he was magical when he was on. I mean, he played a level that actually even Nicholas would say, you know, that's a little cut above everybody when he's really on. So Miller had kind of a mistake around San Francisco. And, you know, I just got very lucky in terms of journalism that I was, you know, I really was a terrible typist. And I couldn't get a job at the Oakland Tribune just working in the sports department,

which is all I wanted to do. And I couldn't pass the personnel typing test at that time. You had to type 45 words a minute with fewer than six mistakes. I doubt I could pass it now with fewer than six mistakes. I'm just a terrible typist. But in any event, I got a job at the Sacramento B.H.A.T. where I finally got started. And I was just covering City Hall and planning commissions and the courthouse. And I loved it.

I mean, I loved journalism. But in my mind, I was always thinking to myself, I hope I end up being a sports writer. And I spent seven very good years at the Sacramento Bee. And then I just kind of sent my resume around a little bit and it wasn't that great. But I just had good timing or luck mostly to go to the East Coast and timing, at that time was recruiting.

And I just was the right fit for the kind of guys they wanted to hire or people they wanted to hire, young, low salary, but with clearly an interest, a real passion for journalism. And so I got a job in sports illustrated as it as it was in a senior writer i was a staff writer and that was the whole turning point of my you know my life as far as focusing and channeling in the sports and especially eventually golf and i i don't want to bore you with my whole my whole resume here but that was really the foundation how i got started being

a golf writer well i i'm not sure if i love or hate the fact that you say that you struggle riding. Part of me is, as someone, I don't enjoy riding very much, but part of me says, well, all right, if one of the guys that's been doing this for this long still thinks that you struggle is riding, that gives a little hope for me. But also, it's like, maybe this is kind of a fool's errand because if you say you struggle riding where as much as you've done it, then what hope is there out there for the rest of us? Well, of course, I mean, no, are you kidding?

I mean, some guys really have a knack. My wife is, she's a natural writer, you know, she doesn't. And honestly, I just envy her. I mean, I've just happened to have the fortune of being channeled into an area that had opportunity and that I have great knowledge and interest in and you know has provided me jobs but I mean I've known so many guys so many men and women with so much more aptitude and natural talent than I have and you can just tell sometimes in the press room when somebody's finished faster than everybody else

yeah it's like the brain and you know in the science room when somebody's finished faster than everybody else. It's like the brain in the science class who finishes the exam and aces it. Dan Jenkins, I mean I remember seeing him who I idolized one of the first books that I read was in golf books was the 18 best golf holes in America, which was a sports illustrated book that they had condensed some of his articles a series that he'd done but Jenkins has that incredible you know style and and and Personality is writing and incredible humor that that you know he I know he works it. I mean he's not you know It's not he's he thinks it extremely quickly and it's an extremely concisely and he's pithy and I mean even at 8080

He still tweets funny tweets. It's amazing. But those kind of guys have the gift. And I think all I have really is tremendous interest in golf. And I've never been bored with it. And I like to think about the causes and effect in sports. And I try to apply that to golf. But as far as putting the words together,

I mean, in the end, I guess they come out cojantly, but making the sausage is ugly. So that's where it's hard. But I honestly, I hear that. I think the better you get in a way the harder it gets, because your standard, your personal standard, gets higher. And you end up knowing it's kind of infinite, kind of like golf. You're never

going to perfect it. But you keep trying to get a little better and you know the increments get smaller and harder as you get older. I think I forget where I've heard the joke before but I've definitely heard that it's like oh so you want to be a writer. Congratulations you have unfinished homework now for the rest of your life. Do you ever, I struggle with this. I have an idea in my head. I can think of the words in my head. I am gonna nail this topic.

This is gonna be a thousand words and on the website in 20 minutes. And then I go to write it and I'm 200 words in and I can't even function, functionally put a sentence together and my idea is squat. Do you ever bounce that issue? All the time. There's almost an inverse relationship between thinking it's going to be easy and how hard

it ends up being. For some reason, if I go in exploring an idea and kind of shoot little thoughts on my computer and try to connect the dots, I do better than if I have what I think is a ready-made theme because it doesn't hold up usually. and try to connect the dots, I do better than if I have what I think is a ready-made theme because it doesn't hold up usually. And then I haven't, because I haven't given it enough dimension like I have with the exploratory idea, it doesn't come together as fast. You know, so I find writing just kind of discovering what you think.

You think, you know what you think, but when you start writing it, there's an extra rigor and an extra standard of explanation that is hard to attain. And it's a good process because it does kind of separate the stuff that doesn't hold up. But getting there can be painful. There's a lot of luck. It's not unlike, I know I've got this narrow life where I ride

and I play golf, or I don't play golf, but I think about golf this narrow life where I write and I play golf or I don't play golf, but I think about golf and I relate a lot of things to golf. But if you play, you know, some days you go out and you think you've got it and you have a really good session on the range and you go on the course with your first drive and the whole route is a disaster. Other times you go out with no expectations and it just clicks. So golf and writing kind of have that same mystery, at least they have for me. I want to get into a bit about some of the changes

that are going on at golf world. Can you, I think I kind of understand some of them, but it sounds like you guys are moving, you went from a fully digital platform and now going to more of a live news streaming, sort of a vertical within golf digest. What I guess kind of started this change or kind of influenced the change and do you have any more specifics on how that's going to work?

Well, it's always been the goal since we've had to convert the digital from the print magazine. I mean, I think what we're trying to do is kind of go back to the future in terms of bringing some of the values that People loved in the print magazine for a long time to digital what we had was a weekly Monday product and it was mostly a technological limitation that didn't allow us to go to become a vertical And I don't understand a lot of you know how websites how websites are put together, but there is a lot of engineering behind it. You know, just nuts and bolts stuff that cost money and time and people, resources and everything. And, you know, I work at Connie Nass, which

is a great magazine company and we have like 14 magazines, I think. And, you know, there are some magazines that take precedent, you know, certainly Bogue and Vanity Fair, the bigger magazines. And we had to kind of wait our turn at Golf World, which is one of the smaller ones obviously, so that we got some of the things that the New Yorker had done and Vanity Fair had done with the hive on their websites, trickle down to our magazine and so this is the fruit of the fruit of that is now we can be a daily sort of living and breathing website that updates constantly and you know basically doesn't have uh... formatted stories of because when we were doing our

Monday product those stories were usually you know was ten things and they were rarely over three hundred words usually between two hundred fifty and three hundred words uh... and i think they were a nice a nice kind of encapsulation of the weekend, what happened in golf, and I think that was our niche, but it's a limited niche.

And so now we can expand into something that can have longer form, can have breaking news, can have whatever sort of the story merits in terms of form. And we just have a lot fewer boundaries now, and I think you're gonna see some of our guys, some of our people who are, you know, true dyed-in-the-wool golf guys be able to, you know, kind of expand on not just the news they can gather,

but their own ideas and really have intelligent takes and original takes. And I think that's been a strength of golf world over the years how much has your role changed in somewhat recent years i know that you are what is it i mean how much of your job is writing how much of your job is editing do you like editing do you like the transition that you've gone into being an editor and it will give me some kind of background so into what that transitions like well sure it's interesting. I mean, what I've found over the years,

the editors that I had the most kind of fulfilling experiences with have been themselves good writers. And at the same time, there are people who are lifelong editors who don't necessarily consider themselves good writers, but then when you read an email from them, critiquing your story, you realize how cogent they are as writers also so I would say that having edited now and I don't edit I would say you know I write more than I edit but I certainly do edit some and it's helped me as a

writer because you know I guess emotionally all most it's easier and this sounds so selfish to make decisions about somebody else's piece that it is about your own. They say, you know, taking out some of your own little harder phrases that don't belong anymore, it's like you have to kill your babies. That's what some writers express it as. And, you know, it's not quite that painful, but the point being, you have more invested in your own stuff and it blinds you to some things that shouldn't stay in.

And you don't have that same thing with other writers and blind you to some things that shouldn't stay in and you can you don't have that same thing with other writers but so i start applying that same process to my own writing and i i found myself getting you know cleaner and more to the point and and uh... more succinct so that is helped me now we have three guy three people in the office ryan herring can who's

uh... really kind of runs golf on a day-to-day basis in terms of, you know, the real nuts and bolts. He's very web-savvy. He makes great judgments. He gets the, he gets things that I might have the first read on, but then he fits them in. So, you know, my role is still to write more than it is to edit. And then, you know, as we have meetings to have direction about what golf rules should be and story ideas, those kind of things, I think I'm stronger in that area than I am, well, I'm not strong at all in terms of the kind of the technical mastery

of the website. I'm still a little digitally challenged. But as you could see when we try to get on Skype there for a second. Well, you gave in and rejoined Twitter. I wanted to, they made you do it, didn't they? Well, you know, I, yeah, I feel like it's a responsibility. I mean, I, I'm scared to do it. I mean, I have to admit, I, I admire people who are good on Twitter.

And I find myself almost like everything I have to, you know, I used to like, I used to really bleed over my leads. I feel like I bleed over these tweets when really what's so nice about Twitter is the spontaneity of it, like conversation. And I just haven't quite gotten there, but I'm getting close. And, but it does take energy.

I mean, it takes thought, and I'm just not a quick thinker, so I always feel like, man, I got too many things to do right now to think about a good tweet. And I think when I relax, I will, but listen, I realize too many things to do right now to think about a good tweet. And I think when I relax, I will. But listen, I realize it's the world.

I'm not like against Twitter. I can see the value, the fact that Donald Trump, I mean, historically, I think Twitter may have probably seen its greatest, I don't know. I would say popularity or importance at least, in the fact that the president has chosen to communicate with the world through Twitter. I mean, that speaks a lot for Twitter, for better or worse. So I feel like I've got to join up.

And be part of a conversation which I learn a lot from. I mean, here's the value of it. Is that I read other people's tweets and certainly the athletes now are feeling like that's a safe place to be open and honest where maybe they wouldn't be as open on us with a reporter or in a press conference so twitter has you know real

kind of a new dimension to what uh... what are gathering of news is. A quick break from Hyundai Ideas to talk to you guys a bit about something I floated on Twitter this weekend. It's about our partnership with Calaway and a promotion that we have coming up soon. I don't have the details yet as badly as I want to tell you the details yet we're still ironing out a few things. All I can say is a friend of the program, Sarah,

and a cot tweeted at me and asked, is it dinner with fill? Is that what the giveaway is? And my only response to that was to say that, I promise you, it's better. I'm super excited because I also get to partake in this giveaway. And all I can say is, I'm 0% afraid

of overhyping this thing. More details are going to come, and I promise you guys there's a great reason why we pyrtoned with Calaway and these types of giveaways are that exact reason. So stay tuned for more information. OK, I want to talk a bit about Bay Hill this week and kind of what's going on in the world of golf as well. I think I've kind of turned my eyes towards Augusta as well.

So I want to ask you a few questions about that. But as someone that, as you mentioned earlier, you know, grew up watching Arnold Palmer, I'm 30, so I think a lot of people that, you know, I've grown up reading, following, and golf have done such an amazing job of making every young person understand the impact of Arnie, And I don't think I fully, fully understood it until the last couple of years or so. I don't know how much of the event you were able to catch this week. What was your big takeaway on the way, the networks,

the media, and the event was run in honor of Arnie? Well, I mean, you know, it's easy to be pejorative and save as a little bit overkill and I would you know generally sort of feel like okay I've heard it but there there's a message that Arnold Palmer had that resonates across generations and it's important that it's not forgotten because as golf's gotten so lucrative, it's also gotten decadent. And it's really easy for the athletes to get isolated and entitled and just stop communicating and feel like they deserve all this stardom and all this money. And I'm not saying they don't have an incredible skill that everybody admires, but it's still just golf. And I think what Arnold Palmer did was humanized into the point where you've got

to be a person too, and you've got to relate to the people that are watching you. And you know, I really feel like this generation of players, you know, from Rory and Jordan's beef and Ricky and you know, these guys, they seem to have either through osmosis or maybe almost, you know, like it was too long forgotten, a little bit in the Tiger era, and I don't mean to come down hard on Tiger. I just think Tiger was sort of a throwback to Hogan, and these guys are sort of a, you know, just pure excellence, and all I owe you is my greatest golf, and that's my gift, and I respect that, but these guys seem to have a sense of, yeah, I'm going to play my greatest

golf, but I want to have a good life, but I want to have a good life and I want to relate to people and I want to promote the game and be open about why it's a wonderful game. And that maybe sounds a little, you know, maybe a little over caffeinated, but I really do sense that when I talk. And I mean, it's to their advantage, these young guys, commercially. I mean, look at Ricky Fowler's image. I mean, he's so well liked it, but part of that is because he gives of himself. And I think Arnold Palmer did that. And that's the lesson that shouldn't go

away. So, you know, it can't almost, almost can't be said enough. Certainly, you know, it's going to fade away to some extent, not totally, but this was the first anniversary, or at least the first Bay Hill without him. And I thought it was good that they, you know, just sort of, you know, hammered at home so to speak and, you know, everybody, I mean, I had an encounter with Arnold Palmer when I was seven years old, you know, and I played golf with him a couple of times, or once, excuse me, and I, you know, interviewed him several times, and it was always a personal, you know, transaction. It was always a feeling that this guy's looking at me,

he's recognizing me, and, you know, there's a moment there where this icon is humanizing himself in a way that, you know, you'll end up following this man forever because he gave you something. A small thing that he's, but he gave, that he gave literally to hundreds of thousands of people. So I don't know. I think Arnold is bigger than golf.

He represents something. I mean, he's not the greatest player, one of the greatest, but he is the king in that regard. If that means the man who carried golf. And I think more than anybody he did. I'm glad that you used the word overkill first before I did just so I would put the back of the jacket. But that wasn't my entire takeaway on it.

It was, and I tried to keep the perspective of, I've not, like I said earlier, I've not gone through my golfing life following every step of Arnie's move and maybe 30, 40 years from now when Rory's retiring or whatnot, maybe I will feel totally different about that event happening than somebody who is 30 years old when that happens. So I think it's so well done by the people

that have gone through it, like you have, gone through that entire ride with them and become so familiar with them and understand the impact he's truly had. So in that regard, I didn't have a, I mean, it's silly as a golf endist so you have any kind of problem for any way that you honor a legend like that. So I wasn't too, I didn't think it was too bad

of overkill to use that word. I thought it was overall, did a very good job of delivering the message. But you touched on it a bit just about how much he's done and how much some of the young guys appreciated and noticed it. Do you have an issue specifically with some of the bigger name players skipping the event? You know, I don't. And, you know, to me, the game has changed to the point of the importance of the majors, even great. I mean, Jack Nickless really, I won't say he invented the majors, but he sort of invented

the importance of the majors. And now it's, I think it's almost become outsized, and I wouldn't mind seeing a little bit more of a backlash toward bringing some more kind of equitable standard to the other tournaments. But if you're a great player, you're number one, you're Dustin Johnson, you're Jason Day, you're Rory McElroy, you know history is gonna judge you on the majors. And so the goal is to be ready for the majors and the schedule has gotten very crowded and it takes energy to play and it takes mental energy to peak and Peak it engulfed first of all is a problematic thing anyway. I don't even know if it's possible very few have ever

consistently done it But the effort seems worth it because when it comes together it really does pay off so Bay Hill, you know, the sort of the sequence and the rhythm of the season, it was starting to look like we're at the position on the calendar, and especially being followed by a WGC event. It was the one that was vulnerable. Now, if Arnold had been alive, probably was vulnerable if i would have been alive probably a couple more guys would have come

but not necessarily and i and i don't think that's disrespectful necessarily i i do think even all palmwood say look your first responsibility is to yourself and to your golf game and it's okay i get it uh... and i know we had that conversation with people on the other hand, you know, the game does notice these things. And if you look like you're a selfish person or a selfish

player in an extreme way, that can be a backlash too. But I actually don't blame players when they're looking out for their game. And you know, sometimes it means just getting away from everything. So if, you know, if Dustin Johnson's jet skiing is, and you know sometimes it means just getting away from everything so if you know of Dustin Johnson's jet skiing is and you and you show an image of that not that they did but you know that would look look at everybody's here honoring Arnold Palmer and this guy's out jet skiing that looks bad to you know in a fastal sort of way but in fact he's just trying to recharge so that when he comes back he plays his best golf and I don't begrudge

those guys that right. I think obviously it's got to be managed in a purse in a, for their own sake in a PR in a, you know, good public relations way, but in general I give them the benefit of that. I might be a little soft on that, but I didn't have a problem in that. You know, Bay Hill is not the greatest golf course. They made it hard this week. It's not the player's favorite. i don't mean to knock they'll but a lot of times guys want to play because they love a golf course and they'll done in gender much love arenal pomeranian gendered love and and that's why they came

but if you're looking at the florida swing on which golf course they like the best i would say very few it's a bill uh... that's an excellent point there i think uh... the most criticism i solve was kind of flung in fills's direction, which I thought was probably the most unfounded considering I thought Phil, you know, he did a lot, he's always shown great appreciation towards Arnie. He flew out to the funeral directly after the ride.

Yes, I was there, yes he did honor Arnie. So that was kind of the one that I was the most. Well, and the irony there is that it's Phil, the most impressionable person in fills co-career was our paulmer i mean what what fill does with his autographs that is direct model of our paulmer that he saw it open on uh... in ninety four so uh... you know i don't think i think fills got some uh... you know some chips the play with when it comes to our paulmer

you wrote a piece this week that was, I thought, very carefully critiquing Rory's up and down Sunday round. It was very well done. I'm usually very quick to jump on people for criticizing Rory. My question for you based on that was, have you received a lot of blowback from readers or what not, or guys like me who think the media can sometimes be too hard on Rory? Well, sure, not on this particular piece yet. I might. like me who think the media can sometimes be too hard on rory well sure not on this particular piece yet i might

you know you wonder now did anybody read it goes out into the ether and i'm digital but no uh... it comes back in certain ways and you know actually the guy would be most interested in the reaction not that it would come but uh... is rory i you know i i i would hope he didn't think it was disrespectful because i have no you know great regard for it for as i tried to point out the piece for his abilities i think if there's anything unfair about it is the it's that when we when we do perceive super talent we hold it to a higher

standard and all i would say about rory is commensurate to his talent uh he is a loose player uh... i mean Jack Nicklis had incredible talent and never wasted shots. I mean obviously, but Rory leaves some out there too often for somebody of his ability in my opinion. Now, that's a mean that he doesn't care. It just means that I don't think he's tightened up the little things in the game. And maybe he never will. Maybe that'll be his style and and and his particular you know I guess the kiles he'll let you know he won't make a lot of plots or he'll miss the the more than odd short putt but I always feel like those kind of things with the right focus and diligence

I mean tiger I always go back to tiger so often because I, you know, I saw as the development and I mean he just, he would be determined to make a weakness of strength. And not that he would every time, but he would always improve that weakness. He just wouldn't tolerate a weakness. And I sort of feel that Rory, sort of feel like golf's kind of capricious and, you know, I have this amazing ability and I love playing and I love hitting that driver. And, you you know sometimes it doesn't work out and okay you know and maybe that's the way his mind allows him to play with joy but I think it's more frustrating when he clearly outplayed everybody on the weekend obviously he's got off to a bad start and just didn't capitalize. I mean he was playing he was average in 331 the last day. I mean he was he was average in three thirty one the last day i mean he was he was playing a very short golf course

and not you know he made seven birdies but the four bogies and made we're all kind of soft ones and that's where you know you felt like man he was the best player but he did not win yeah i think what what you said again i thought i thought was pretty spot on i think rory would agree with what you wrote i think i i have a problem in general when the media tends to take a kind of a hyperbolic approach towards picking on the guys that were close to winning that did not come through at the end, right? They put a little

extra scrutiny on the things that happen in the final round as if that's indicative of something. I think what you said about Rory hitting some loose shots, I think that's pretty spot on. I mean, he did that the, I think it was four or five iron that he hit on the last part, not this last part three on the back, second to last part three. Yeah, 14, yeah. Missed on a spot that he knew he couldn't miss at. And that's just, it's a mistake he knew he couldn't make.

I think, yeah, yeah, he did make a few of those down the stretch, but it's kind of a weird thing to say, but I almost think he's better off not having won this event right before the Masters. Is that like a crazy lazy thing to say? Not at all. No, I mean sometimes you know you want the hunger, you want the anger, you want the determination that comes from a tough loss or or feel like you gave one away. That can be fuel. And you know I you know I'm guessing but I think he put a nice spin on it with you know in his interviews guessing, but I think he put a nice spin on it in his interviews afterwards, but I'm pretty sure he walked away angry from that tournament. And that's fine, that's good.

But, you know, to your earlier point, I agree with you about people, you know, sort of microscopically taking apart a particular tournament or a particular finish and blaming the guy for choking or for not having it in the clutch, all those things that are easy to do, especially if you happen to want that guy to win sometimes as a writer, there are certain people that you sort of feel like, man, that guy should be better and you're almost, you know, projecting your own failings on the guy. So you have to watch out for that sometimes. But I think the main thing is, I look for patterns or I try to.

And I think golf's a long story. And when I do see a pattern, which I saw with Sergio for a long time, and I think he's just starting to come out of it. Then I feel empowered to go ahead and criticize. But in general, I try to keep cognizant of how hard the game is and how there's only one winner. I mean, golf is the game of losing.

So it's just so easy to go, oh, that guy blew it. When there's seven guys who blew it, actually, if you're looking at not beating the one guy who did win, everybody left from shots out there i mean also just a game of mistakes it's who makes the fewest and there i don't know it there's very few very very few pure

clean rounds uh... and yet but i do end up admiring the players who make the fewest mistakes i i always look at speed uh... he'll he'll have the odd you know kind of blow blow up just when he might get a little over a over a over a subrenor or angry and lose it. But in general, he keeps a really tight control on wasted strokes. I think it's his greatest strength.

And it makes up for what he lacks in firepower. And he beats guys who have more physical game because he makes fewer mistakes and so i'd admire that a lot of the hardest thing and all and it's what made nick list so great because he had the physical game to overwhelm but he didn't make any mental mistakes either and tiger i think followed that that pattern but it's really rare last thing on bay hill uh... briefly do you it seemed like the again like i

said the event was a great dedication to Arnie and his legacy. What do you think about the future of the event? I know a lot of people compare it to the Byron Nelson and kind of how that that event used to draw a much stronger field when Byron was around. Do you foresee any problems in the future with their ability to pull in top players? Well you know it's again know, it's a crowded schedule. The Florida swing is one in which not very many people play all of them. It used to be that way when guys were playing 25 to 30 events and that's changed. I would say that the WGC leaving D'Arral has heard the Florida swing

and going back from mexico if it stays in mexico will be always the tournament after that will always be a tough one i think players will sort of feel like this is time for a breather so i think it will be positioning on the schedule you know there's upgrades you can make the courses i mean they'll play really tough in a way that was almost close to major championship conditions uh... in terms of being firm and fast with some significant rough so that can make it

that can raise it in terms of importance is like how much game of you got let's see what you can do at bay hill so it it becomes a matter of how you position your tournament uh... right now uh... i'd say it's you know it's it's in the ball spar region as opposed to the players championship region or or or or or or what the rally used to be

uh... in terms of you know uh... it is a must play i think probably uh... the honda has passed it slightly uh... these things fluctuate you know and and you brought up uh... the biren i thought it was always hindered by laskelinas right and now they're going to finally move Las Calinas.

Now that's going to become a premiere event when they go to Trinity Forest, because that golf course is going to have something special about it, like a band in Dunes, or it's sort of a new, lengthy, exciting new style of minimalist golf architecture, and that's going to bring excitement. So, you know, Bay Hill's going to just have to upgrade a little bit. They'll find a way but i i think they'll always use i think arnal is one of the few icons that

can endure even beyond as great as bire nelson was and how much he was in my brother players he didn't have that public power that our palmer does so i think bayhil is going to be okay it's just going to be it's tough it's competitive out there to keep getting players yeah they're going to need a little help with the scheduling folks, I think. I think it was pretty obvious when the new schedule came out last year that Bay Hill was gonna get the worst of it.

But shifting on to Augusta, I think we're two weeks away from Masters week now. My pick is Jordan Speed to win. I think I'm probably gonna pick him every year for the next like 20, based on the fact that he's gone second, first, second in his first three masters. As someone that's seen a lot of masters, do you feel like that is kind of glanced over

and not given enough attention? How much crazy success he's had so early in his career at Augusta? I do think it's been glossed over a little and I think it's based on that trauma on a 12-fold line. Right. It just kind of erased everybody's memory. I think he had led or been tied like seven straight rounds

for the lead at a gust. I mean, it's amazing. I, you know, my history of the master, I always go, you know, it's like I can remember, 30 years ago, the sequence of tournaments better than I can in the last 10. But I always go back to, you know, Arnold winning 58, 60, 62, 64, you know then Jack winning in 63 and 65 and 66 and Gary Player winning 61. There was that,

you know, they were the big three and there was a sense, well they're the best players because Augusta brings out the best and the best players. And I'm not sure that's always true. There have been a lot of faults, I think, indicators about Augusta Always being a power players course. It certainly helps. I mean, it helps anywhere. Because there is room to driver, hit driver, and then you're hitting shorter approaches, and you can hold those really firm greens with, you know, obviously with a nine iron wedge more than you can at seven or six iron, but it's still a game of precision and touch at August gust of more than anything. And if you make up mistakes with short game like Jordan's Beef can, like Sebi Bias

Theros used to, Sebi was pretty long, but I mean he would just not make bogies because he just had such incredible touch. And usually the guys who are long but a little ham-handed make a ton of bogies because they just can't handle, you know, the chipping or even the long putting. So I would just say it has been glossed over that that Jordan's speed hasn't been given enough credit for what he does and also that his style of play he actually does the things that are most important at Augusta better than anybody else which are, you know, saving par not, you par, not making bogies, keeping your

round going, without necessarily a lot of pyrotechnics and then making six and seven footers consistently, which is really hard on those greens. They're tricky. You have so many 30 footers that run out to five or six feet and it wears you down to the point where You know you start missing them and he just has that great stroke and great will and great confidence on those puts and And he can do it on Sunday. So I'm not saying you know I would love to be Bubba at a you know at Augusta and hitting that that huge left-handed cut You know around the corner on 13 and he's won

but in general the guys like vj and baba who are great ball strikers not great putters don't tend to win very often at Augusta it's almost always a great putter or somebody who had a great putting week and i think jordan's the best best bet for that i've kind of thought for a long time that and i just kind of never thought that dust and johnson could win a master's he just never felt like a good match to

me uh... i think we kind of view his game differently now that he's risen number one player in the world as one major and uh... is playing at a level that he's never played at before he finished type for six and twenty fifteen type of fourth and twenty sixteen to almost not to my memory at all. I have very few DJ memories around Augusta. Is that a guy you think it sounds maybe kind of a silly question to say, is the number one player in the world a guy we should be thinking about for Augusta?

But has anything changed in the way you evaluate the way his game matches up with a course like Augusta? Yes, I mean, I think DJ was a guy we talked about you know uh... uh... rory leaving strokes at nobody left more strokes on the course in the j uh... and he's learned the hard way it with a lot of determination i give a lot of credit to clean it up basically and and and and and to not and to improve his

chipping certainly a lot of attention been given to his wedged play has he gets a lot of wedges and and for approach shots and he's gotten really good from being really bad from like 120 yards to 60 yards and even to 150 because he knows his distance his better he's he's worked on it I mean he's he's a very gifted guy who you know while he would say hey I worked hard on my game and I got to this level relatives of the other guys at that level he did not work as hard and I think now he's found hard work and a balance

that keeps him you know enthusiastic without getting burned out and now I think he's learned I can do this if I just get a little better at a couple of areas and the game becomes so much easier if you keep saving parts and it's not easy to save parts at a gust of, but if you work on those skills like Jordan's, I mean Jordan's kind of a clarion call, that's how you do it. Do not make bogey by, you know, when you do miss a green with a tricky chip, you know, get your technique right so you can, you can chip off those really tight lies without fearing a chunk or skull on it.

It takes a lot of work, but that's what's filled up. I remember once talking to Phil, he goes, hey, just talking to me now, it was on the chipping area. Phil can ask me something. Yeah, just come on over now and he was just chipping. And I asked him maybe eight, I don't know, two questions. He probably answered for eight minutes Which was great, but the whole time I first I looked him in the eye and then I just started looking down at his contact as he was chipping and

It was flawless. I mean, you know that barely a blade of grass move that you could hear to click perfectly and that's what the great You know short game guys I had in the old days one of the nice things about covering golf in the 80s, there wasn't quite as much restriction around the players. And you know, if you weren't a total pest, they'd let you hang around a little bit. And you know, I'd be sitting there with Sevy or just watching them chip. And you know, you do start appreciating the precision and the beautiful contact, and that's just the gift. And you can get better at that, and just did not have it for years.

And now he's getting really close to it. And to me, it could make a difference at a gust. That's a long answer. But you kind of look for the artists, the guys who just have the skill, it's like a musician hitting the right note, having perfect pitch. When they hit that wedge shot, it's right in the, right in the correct part of the club, without being too steep and the ball comes out cleanly and it has the same spin and bites on the same bounce every time. That's what you're looking for. Jordan's got it. Dustin's getting there.

Rory has it sometimes. To me, it's a big separator Augusta. No, that's a great point. I always go back to, I watch a lot more golf on TV than I see in person. And some shots that I go and see in person that you can't make out on TV or can't appreciate on tv

really just kind of remind you of of what is the difference maker this level and i go back to uh... the twenty thirteen presidents cut for a totally random shot that uh... charles warts will hit and i wouldn't say shorts was necessarily known for his short game or any any particular type of skill of me and a really consistent ball striker but he there is a fifth hole at mirro Mirfield Village and the pins in this back right little ice little back left if you're looking from the fairway little isolated corner of the green

that's almost inaccessible and he's in the fairway about it's got about a 40 yard shot from the fairway and he's got to carry it onto a piece of green that's about you know it feels about 15 feet wide total and he's got maybe 6 feet of green to work with. And he hits this pitch shot that just takes, like lands on the fringe, takes two stops and just takes two bounces and just absolutely stops on a dime. And my jaw just, it wasn't like the most miraculous shot ever, but I was just like, that's a shot that the average player can absolutely not ever relate to. And it's those kind of shots that I think are the ones

that really, really separate PGA tour players from guys like you and me. But I wanted to ask you a few tiger questions. I try not to do too much tiger talk, but you're a guy that has, I think, a very unique perspective on him, especially considering you obviously co-authored the big miss with Hank Haney. But are you with me that I still think

there's no hope that he plays at Augusta? Do you have any any insider estimates on that? I have no insight. I tend to always give him the benefit of doubt when it comes to his potential abilities. And I would agree with everybody who says, man, it's looking pretty dark. And however, I just always feel like it doesn't take much for golf, a golfer to some, a great golfer, especially just turn on a dime. I go back to 2010 when Tiger came out of the scandal and was in a rehab facility and didn't play any golf for

two or three months, didn't play any tournaments. Started practicing about three weeks before Augusta, you know, Hank observed him, went out, he was sitting at terrible, and he went to Augusta and finished fourth. Now he wasn't injured at the time, and he was mentally, you know, injured, wounded. But this is a different time, and this is a different injury but i just always feel like what i saw at the bhammas again you know you finish second the last in the field and he made six doubles

but there was a freedom to his swing and and even his gate looked very athletic and and and useful and i don't know what happened between then and tori something happened right however if it if it switched that quickly maybe it can maybe you can find something it can it can switch back again I mean backs are capricious I've always been a little skeptical about the back being the full problem I feel like he still has you know mental issues when it comes to putting his game on display when he's not the tiger woods of old. And I think there's a lot of pressure

on him to live up to his image and and he gets a lot of scrutiny and a lot of criticism when he doesn't play well and I think that can be traumatic. I might be overestimating that but I really don't know how much he really loves playing when he's not playing well. And if he doesn't feel like he has and maybe would rather not show up in the back gives him cover for that. Again that's all speculative but I just I just still feel like if he had somehow just a physical moment like he had at the Bahamas the next two weeks he could go and play and could he win probably not but I don't know I still feel like he's got a lot of game and if he puts like he can like he did at the Bahamas, he's a guy with a

puncher's chance even at Augusta. Now that may sound like just pure romance. I don't know. I mean, I'm not trying to be unrealistic about Tiger, but I just think sometimes people make too much of reps and they try to equate golf to like the physical conditioning. It takes the play for a football or for a basketball. You're not in game shape. You can't play. I don't think that's true for golfers. Great golfers. I mean, I think they can find it pretty fast. And maybe they're a little tired after, you know, walking five hours. But that the main challenge in golf is not physical. You know, I think too much have been made about getting guys in the gym. Sure, it helps. You know, I'm sure it's put on three or four miles an hour clubhead speed on most guys,

but that's not the thing that separates them. What separates them is what we were talking about earlier. Can they put the club on the ball so they hit solid shots and hit the shots that they see in their heads and just have the feel in their hands to make the putts. And those things happen to great golfers. I mean, Nicholas was not anywhere close to anything great at the 86 master and it happened. So I just when a guy's iconic and great, I feel like it's still possible to pull off something

impossible. And you wrote about this recently as well, talking about, you know, what if Tiger walked away from the game? And I walked away from you. You floated a lot of different options and thoughts out there. And I walked away, kind of, I think, with more questions than I did answers. And I think that was almost kind of the unintended maybe, the intent of your of the piece. It was it was

trying to find out what makes this guy tick and pointing out that I'm not sure that anybody really understands that at this point I I've you know it's been well documented and you've written about how much tiger craves privacy yet at the current moment we started to see that kind of a different side of him you know comes does a Charlie Rose interview he He does a Mac daddy, Santa, photo on Twitter. People speculate this is pressure from sponsors to be out there so he can promote his new brand. What does Tiger want?

Of all the things that you wrote about, the thing that stuck to me the most was Michael Jordan saying, I think he wants to retire but he doesn't want to go out exactly on this note. So if I wanted to speculate to say Tigers waiting for one last, Hurrah moment, one last decent moment, and then it's, my back is out. I'm done. Is that a realistic way we can see the next three, four years playing out?

Sure. If, in fact, playing is an ordeal, and he's looking for one good moment where he can say goodbye with a sense of completion and satisfaction that I'm going to go out with a great impression, a last great impression. I can understand that and that may be the case. I would think if he had a great moment now and he felt good, he'd keep playing. Because I think he loves to play. I just don't think he loves to play badly and he doesn't love to play hurt. My feeling, you know, that article was totally without an answer. The one thing I always thought, my default with Tiger is the one thing he really loves is golf and And I've noticed over the years whenever he's gotten involved in conversations that happened with golf and he feels You know, and I think this is the case like when he's in the in the locker room at the president's cup or the

As an assistant captain the writer cup. That's where engages guys and they talk golf and he knows golf like nobody else almost and i think when he's comfortable he can expound on it and i think he's kind of got a natural teachers sensibility and i i could see him becoming a great mentor you know now as per golfers because i think the one you know tiger has a lot of you know kind of gives the highs into a lot of people

uh... who all you know in his mind wants something from a maybe it's true i mean starting from the media and but corporate people everybody who who wants to be near tiger was the one group that he feels a brotherhood with and it doesn't matter of the guy is you know a journey men who's lost his cards seven times are the players

he always has high respect for the players. He's a great pairing because he relates to him as equals. I mean, I saw that when he was a young guy, first came on out of the tour. I mean, playing with John McGinnis and Guy Boros, and guys who are really fringe guys, and they had a great time and he related to him, and he loved talking golf with him and learning from him.

So I may be overstating this but my sense is that's his comfort zone, that's his group. And if he could stay in contact with that in retirement, so to speak, I think that would be satisfying for him. Now the other thing I would say is, you know, how does he go out? I mean, if he goes out with the perception that, you know, how does he go out? I mean, he goes out as a, as a, with the perception that, you know, he was a warrior, and I guess I said this in the piece, he was a warrior like every athlete, like Kobe Bryant, who just, whose body just gave out in this real noble way, then I think he can hold his head high and he would probably be

comfortable being a public figure. But if he goes out in the public mind as the incredible athlete who self-destructed through his own mistakes and kind of shamed himself, I think that would make him more likely to be reclusive. And understandably, I mean, I think Tiger's a sensitive person. He cares what people think. I mean, he puts up that huge armor, but behind it, he gets hurt, you know, by all the criticism, and I just don't think he wants to expose himself to that, if that's what it's going to be like. So I hope, for his sake, that, you know, he does go out in a way that everybody appreciates who he was, understands he's human,

and that, you know, he should be able to hold his head high. But as far as going out, I still think, if this back thing clears up, OK, I think he's still placed for a while. Now, I can tell the odds are, it ain't going to clear up. And it may be over very, very soon. But again, back's being unpredictable. If he's got a shot at being healthy in the future, I still think he'll want to stay a golfer. I know. I'm as I mentioned you were co-author of the Big Miss obviously with Hank

Haney and Hank received a lot of criticism and blowback for kind of writing. Well some people took as kind of a tell all book. Did you receive any of that as well and was there was there a moral issue with that at all? Did that go into your consideration before you made the decision to co-author the book? Are you treated differently by Tiger and his people after writing it? Well, the last part was the crucial part for me. I had had a good relationship with Tiger, and I'll always be grateful for that. I have a lot of respect for Tiger and I thank him for all that It had started to a road not really through any personal dynamics, but just because of his position in the game and and

The company I worked for having a relationship with him that ended and it created you know a schism Between us so that I wasn't even really having any access and so my my dilemma was, okay, I know if I do this, knowing Tiger pretty well, that's it forever. You know, he's not going to talk to me again. And you know, that was a hard thing to give up, not just in a professional way, but I didn't want to look like just a guy who sold him out and was a traitor. And I'm sure that there's people in Tiger's camp and Tiger himself perhaps feels that way about me. And I care, it bothers me if that's true, but I think where I am at peace about it is, look, I'm a journalist, I'm a golf writer,

I'm interested in particular the greatest players. And our job is to bring out what is true as much as possible, at least seek the truth. And I think in Tiger's case, because he put out so little intentionally about himself and who he is. And this happened to him, unfortunately, this scandal happened to him. And it's one of the most amazing, you know, turn around, you know, reversals of fortune and the history of sports and even the history of culture. And I just felt like, you know, this is what I do. I'm going to help Hank with this book

because I think this is gonna be an enlightening book about the greatest player we all saw in our era and maybe of all time and it's there's going to be a trade-off. I mean I'm going to I'm going to have to give up something and I just it was a close call but I felt like it was worth giving it up because I'm proud of that book. I'm proud of helping Hank with that book and I think that book was not a tell-all really it was it was really a golf book and you know I think that book was not a tell-all, really, it was really a golf book. And I think that was the line of demarcation for all the information we use.

How did these, what events affected his golf? And I guess you could say every event affects golf or a pro-golf. But really, I don't think we got into his real private life other than the things that clearly derailed his golf, which was that the scandal and the awful events of 2009 and early 2010. So all that stuff being said, I feel like the book is a contribution to the golf literature and I'm proud to be part of it and You know, I wish the world you know it was all you could have everything at once But I had to sacrifice something for that book. Yeah, I didn't mean to personally classify myself as a tell-all book But I know that's kind of how a lot of people

No, it's often it's often you know categorize it that and I get it Yeah, you know and what my perspective I wanted for you was that it's Hank's stories, right? It's Hank's access that is the story. You helped him write the word. You write the word. So to me, I would think, and I'm not Tiger Woods, so I can't operate in that mindset, but I can see where they would be bitter about your involvement with it, but it wasn't you that spilled the secrets. I don't think the secrets within it were too juicy necessarily or too damaging, but I know that Hank battled that dilemma.

I was just curious how much how much kind of Shrapnel was was deflected your well, yeah, you know, I've been I've been I Feel like I word about My peers and what they would feel and I felt like they felt it was fair Right and and they've been respectful and that meant a lot. So, you know, I move on some day perhaps, you know, I move on. Some day, perhaps, you know, I'll have a conversation with people from Tigers camp, but from at present, you know,

I just sort of take it as a given that I'm kind of persona non-grata and I move from there. I still write about Tiger a lot and I don't think it's affected my perspective of him as a player or even as a person. I feel like a lot of what's happened to Tiger is kind of tragic and I have a lot of, I say, sympathy for him, but certainly I think he's just a fascinating figure. And, you know, we're going to cover golf we have to write about it. Yeah, it's something I'm struggling to deal with, you know, as I get further and further

into this game as well as being critical of people and, you know, weighing in what the backlash is going to be to that, right? I mean, it's, especially for a guy like your perspective, it's done it for so long, it's hard to think about, you know, really pissing the guy off or telling the truth. That's the hard part, is it's the truth, yet you can get yourself in trouble for telling it. Well, yeah, I mean, the truth's subjective, so one person's truth not another person's truth, but I think, you know, access is important, it's gotten harder, and so yes, access is easier when a player doesn't feel threat. But I think the other part is, do the players respect you for being somebody who takes a stand

for what they think in their writing? It doesn't mean you have to be on a soapbox every time you write, but if you point something out, can you substantiate it? Like, what I wrote about Rory? I could have been, I could have been, I could be wrong about that, but I tried to substantiate my criticism of Rory, Rory's gain with evidence and a perspective and you know, again, it's, it's not, I don't pretend to say that's the truth, it's just what I think I could substantiate. And if you do that enough and you're not considered nuts, you know, your reasoning is accepted as something that's taken seriously and well thought out. But generally, I think I've been, I can go up to players and they know I'm not cheap

shotting them. I'm trying to do something where I'm getting at something that I can talk about the game in an intelligent way. That's really what I'm, and to some extent, they like that conversation themselves. Sometimes when it's turned on them, it gets touchy. But usually over time, one of the nice things, like I'll go out in the champions tour and a lot of those guys are you know closer to my You know my age as contemporaries and and now the battles are kind of over I mean they're certainly competing out there, but it's different and you start realizing you know they were reading me or and

and basically evaluating me as a as a golf rider all along without my even knowing it right and sometimes they disagree Sometimes they disagreed and sometimes I thought I was terrible, but in general me as a as a golf rider all along without my even knowing it. Right. And sometimes they disagree. And sometimes they disagree. And sometimes they thought I was terrible. But in general, I think I can go out there and hold my head high and feel like, you know, I was doing an honest job. And they kind of shared in the same discussion. And I was part of it.

And so I can now pick up that discussion with them. Not as an equal, but it's certainly somebody is part of the scene, so to speak, without having been just someone who was frivolous about it. They take what we do seriously, because in the end, they're remembered through, I talk about the players, they're remembered to the journalists. And it's important how they're recorded. I mean, in their own lives, it ends up being important. So I try to remember that.

I mean, maybe I'm talking too much here, but I just sort of feel like, you know, everybody talks about, well, who are you trying to please? Well, certainly I'm trying to please myself with a story before I hit the send button. But what I really, and this kind of could be counter to what the Columbia Journalism Review or someone, you know, would say is I'm really most concerned about what the subject of my story thinks of it. As biased as they may be and as much as they might,

you know, be too blinded by their own self-interest, in the end, usually that view ends up being the one that I take most seriously. Once the emotion of everything falls away, not that we're writing about all these intense things, but it's still personal when you write about somebody. And if they feel like, you know, you didn't quite get it right. And then later on, they go, you know what, that did make sense. That feels good and gives you confidence to keep going ahead and following your own ideas and instincts. All right. We'll get you out of here on this one. Hi, man. I apologize to the listeners that send in questions as well. I'm not going to get to a lot of them. I try to keep these around now. No, don't apologize. This has been fantastic stuff, so. But I, and another,

Tron, another no-ling-up guy with me had this question and wanted me to ask you. I spoke with Matt every last week, and he kind of, he noted to me how he feels, he's 33, how he felt like a lot of the young guys that come out on tour now are mostly one sport guys or a bit track man obsessed. Is that something you've kind of noted?

Have you seen a major shift in the type of personalities that the BGA tour generates? Well, yeah, I don't know if it's, I guess they are narrower. I think everybody in sports is narrower now, simply because it's funny, you know, I was alluding to earlier, you know, as a kid, we all, you know, a bunch of us, regardless of skill level, would all play seasonal sports. You always heard about three-letter men and four-letter men even in high school. And now, from what I gather, I don't have kids, but kids specialize very young. I mean, a soccer kid might never play anything but soccer from the age of 10 on.

You know, Jack Nicholas is one who feels like that's been to the detriment of golfers. First of all, they don't really learn how to compete to the same extent that maybe a more intense physical sport would teach you to do. And secondly, maybe you don't develop some of the coordination and athletic ability that you would if you played other sports. Jordan's feet did play some other sports. I think it helps him. I do sense a special level of competition when he plays, competitiveness, I should say. So to your point or Sean's point about them being narrower, I think they get really

good at hitting the golf ball and they really specialize at being efficient biomechanically and getting great numbers on track man. And that's really important when you're out hitting golf shots on the course. But is it the most important thing? I don't think so. I think the most important thing is how do you, and this kind of intangible thing, how do you play the game? Because everything changes once the game starts. I mean, you're sitting on the range and you're hitting shot after shot, you can get in a wonderful groove and get perfect numbers on track, man.

But when you walk 290 yards from your tee shot to your next approach, that's a new approach that you haven't seen before. And you only get to hit it once. And then how do you deal with the disappoint when you don't hit it? And this is scrambled when you haven't replicated what you were doing on Trackman. I think there gets to be a little automaton mentality among some of the young guys. And I think if you look through history, the greatest players just really knew how to play and improvise and find their game on the fly sometimes during an 18-hole round and you know survive when they didn't feel it. It is a game of feel more than it is a game of robotic repetition. And so I think it's wonderful. You don't see very many bad swings. You don't see many bad impact positions on tour.

You see guys who are maxing out efficiently, but again, taking into the course is another challenge. And I think the greatest guys do that, sometimes within perfect swings, that aren't the best track man swings. But they're doing the most important thing well. Very good. Hi, May. Thank you so much for an hour of your time. Man, this was excellent. I'd love to do this again sometime. And best of luck with the transition

and the new golf world vertical. And I hope you enjoy the master's as much as I will. It was a pleasure, Chris. Thank you very much. And congratulations on your site. I hear a lot of word of mouth about, you know, no laying up. So, well done. For better or for worse, I'm sure.

So, okay. Thank you, I made it. Take care. Let's give it a big club. Be the right club today. Yes. Yes. Yes.

That is better than most. How about him? That is better than most. How about him? That is better than most. Better than most.