No Laying Up - Golf Podcast - NLU Podcast, Episode 728: Billy Walters

Episode Date: August 17, 2023

Soly visits with legendary sports gambler Billy Walters ahead of the release of Billy's book Gambler: Secrets from a Life at Risk. In addition to the well publicized partnership Billy had with Phil Mickelson, we cover his upbringing in Kentucky, his first exposure to gambling, his road to becoming of the most famous sports bettors in the world and a ton more. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

I'm going to be the right club today. Yes! That is better than most. That is better than most. Better than most. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to the No Lang, a podcast, Sally here, back-ish, back-adjacent, I'd say, from a paternity leave hoping to get back into the content game. Eason, my way back into the content game, but I have an interview coming here shortly with Billy Walters. Billy has wrote a book recently that is called Gambler Secrets from a Life at Risk.

We cover that in detail in this interview. I would say in great detail, but I don't think we could have possibly covered his life story and how it relates to the golf world in the full detail that it probably requires. I do recommend the book. It has been a fascinating read. If you like gambling stories,

oh my gosh, is this guy have him? A life of just pool halls and blackjack, backerat, roulette, you name it. He's got stories from interesting characters he's met along the way, organized crime leaders and setting up shop in Vegas and a betting operation that wrapped all the way around the world. We talked a little bit about some of that stuff

but man, there are a lot more details in there and I wanted to keep this as tied into the golf road as possible Obviously we talked a lot of Phil Mickelson and there's been the excerpt from the book that's been released And we talk about their relationship and then how that fell apart and what how Billy ended up in in prison and how Phil had something to do with that So I want to give a shout out to our friends at rowback as you can see if you're watching this on YouTube I got my favorite hoodie on the green one. It's too hot for hoodies here in Florida, but I've just been indoors the whole time. So they've been keeping me company these last few weeks as we've just been chilling at home. You know, Roeback, these guys understand quality. Best way to describe it. Best fit. Best feel.

Summer is in full force to performance. Pull those are fantastic. They have a bunch of USA theme stuff that is great for all the American theme holiday solids and stripes. And then of course the rowback performance hoodies are the stretchiest softest hoodies and golf you want to be comfortable and relaxed on the golf course out in town or just laying around at home where a rowback hoodie. I tried my best to keep these things in rotation. I've got about 12 of them. And I still don't think it's enough. And lastly, the performance QZips are a game changer. Nothing beats rocking a rowback QZip for an early round of golf. They're soft, stretchy, comfortable, and they are difficult to take off. I can't go anywhere without spying that dog logo that you see up in the corner or the two-stripe bridge on the back of rowback clothing. You can use code NLU at rowback.com for a generous 20% off your first order through the end of this week. That's rhobac.com, 20% of polo's q zips hoodies and more with code and now you here

is our interview with Billy Walters. All right, this book has been highly anticipated by the golf community. I would venture to say after finishing it, the hype has been met and it'll be obvious to people once they've heard this interview or once they've read the book, but Billy, why did you want to write this book? I want to write it for a number of reasons. I know I can help a lot of people in the cuff from a similar background that I do that have faced addiction in their life and you know, I have a lot of ups and a lot of downs and you know, everyone in those three life they have challenges and I wanted to share

some of those that I've experienced and how dealt with those and hopefully helped others. Sports betting is kind of my dream come true so to speak. I started betting sports at a very early age. And back when I began betting sports, sports bettors were thrown in the same pile as bookmakers and there was a perception, a negative perception, that, you know, some are another, we must be criminals or something. And, you know, we finally got to point time and now where Gambling is legal in the jar

of the United States. So, I'm not getting any younger, and I wanted to share everything in the world that I know about sports handicapping, sports betting. I wanted to share that with sports bands. So, I went to sell this information for $30 million, 10 years ago, but I'm 10 years older and I want to share this with sports bands and it's my legacy, so to speak. So that was my motivation for writing sports out of it. And then the most recent chapter in my life is, let's convict

it in the Southern District of New York for insider trading. And that has been misplaced for trading, the facts surrounding that. And I want an opportunity to set a record straight in regards to that. So there were combination reasons I did. I didn't do it for any monetary considerations. Any money I have from this is all voluntary. Those are my motivations in general. Well, as a lot of golf fans probably did or will do when they get this book, as I went to the table of contents, I looked up the field chapter, read that one first and then worked my way backwards

into it. So I've read that one twice and how Phil Mickelson has intertwined with your life is, is, is a story I'm sure will get to, but it was interesting to read it that way and then to come back through and read the whole book and reach that chapter, which it kind of tells the story a little bit about how you got there, how things went down. And I would struggle to ask this question of how would you explain your background because it's an extremely long story, but how would you, I'm sure you've made a living out of succinctly describing your background, how would you describe the sequence of events that led to how you sit in here today? Well, you just shared with me that you brought a new member to your family. We all talk about the formative years and how someone is basically pretty much the direction

they're going to be in has kind of created a very young age. I was born and raised in a kind of created a very young age. I was born and raised in a small, real town in Central Kentucky. I lost my father in a young age and my mother left. I was raised by a grandmother. And luckily, I could have had four parents. I couldn't have had a better role model.

First places I remember going outside of my home were a Baptist church. I went to, you know, what the Baptist church, three times each Sunday. I went to prayer meeting on Sunday night and I went to a Christian New Youth Organization on Saturday night. My grandmother worked a couple of jobs

and there was no daycare in this little town I was raised in. My uncle on the pool room. And so I was left at my uncle's pool room and he put up co-cola cases around the back pool table and give me a pool queue. And he went back to work in the history of the pool at the age of four. So my life consisted of, you know, bad discharge,

being baptized at six. And being in the pool room, and I learned a whole lot of about life in a pool room. I learned, I actually started playing pool. I played, first time I gamble, I played, game of penny nine ball, when I was six years old. But the things I learned in a pool room were about, you know, being able to play under heat, understanding how to negotiate,

and realizing that sometimes your best friend will, you know, will dump you. If you take, you know, a rogue off for a partner, you could get dumped. So those are the things that kind of form me as a person. And I like to think that, although I'm 77 years old, I think those are my core principles today. My grandmother taught me that your words you bought make a commitment. You are those, like I say, those are the core principles that I live by today. Well, and eventually we get to a part, as far as I've known you over the years through

media and through stories has been this legendary gambler that has a great system for betting sports and all that. And I guess I was a little surprised to read the book to see the path to getting there was not a straight line. And I lost track of the course of reading it. How many times you were up seven figures to losing it all up seven figures again losing it all up seven. It's somewhere along the way you learn something or you formalize the way

that you approached what you call a life at risk. And I'm wondering if you could tell us a little bit about that path. Well, it's a rags-to-rags story. And it's over not only what's, but it's a rags-to-rags story again. I've been broke over 100 times in my life. And the book, it shares those experiences

to how at one time I was highly addicted to gambling. It controlled, I couldn't control my thoughts or I didn't make good sound solid decisions. And as a result, it brought a lot of pain into my life. But from the time I came to this world, gambling really appealed to me, risk-taking did, and some people think I'm fairly resilient so I just kept fighting to kept fighting and never gave up and they say smart people make a mistake they don't repeat it the second time well I'm

missing up in smart because I made a I made the same mistakes multiple times but eventually I've got to the point to work there were certain things in my life the addiction, I ended up getting married 47 years ago to an incredible lady. And so there were a number of things in my life that happened that finally turned me from someone who was chasing success

to someone who actually became successful. The sports handicap in part of it is I've been on golf, you know, the major tournaments for a number of years to see golf, you know, where you can bet on it now and you can bet on it legal from a half, being able to share, you know, the concepts that I use to be able to handicap golf, you know, look, you know, there's a state in a book outside Outside of the work, golf has been, that's the only hobby I've ever had,

almost every friend I have, either directly or indirectly, he came from golf. So, but getting from work, I came from the Kentucky at a real age to where I ended up in Nevada. And Las Vegas, he came to capital of the world and actually, turning something around that brought a lot of pain and sorrow in my life and Las Vegas, they gave me capital of the world and actually turning something around that

brought a lot of pain and sorrow in my life from time to time and actually being considered fairly successful at it is it's all in a book. And again, I like auto-bargages, I don't like ones that are vanity books. I think when you read the book, you'll see this is extremely honest portrayal of my life. Yeah, I didn't walk away from it thinking, man, I didn't have envy of it. It wasn't a, you know, necessarily an aspirational tale at times. You, you, you, you profile and you, you document a lot of these ups and downs. And my heart was breaking every time you'd go to the Blackjack table after a big sports win and give it all up.

And you are right with the marrying an amazing woman because it sounds like when you would come home with the news of the losses, it would be okay. Well, we'll get it back. It'll be fine. You know, it's funny how things work now. I guess I've only known the betting world from an information overload era, right?

I can log online. I can see the trends of all the PGA tour players, the NFL teams, I can get DVOA stats on the NFL teams and all that, but it wasn't always like that. And you profile a little, some of the things that are archaic now, you can give the secrets away now, but now that all the information's out there, but how you compiled information back in the day.

And for the listeners that haven't read it yet, can you give us a sense of what your team was like and what the operation was like? All the people working for you, both the play-stabets, the gather of the information, you know, kind of when you turn the corner into making this a very profitable venture for you. Can you give us an idea of what that was like? Well, when I lived in Kentucky prior I actually had moved in Las Vegas. I was betting sports there along with, I was booking sports at the time too. I was dealing indirectly with a guy named Mike Kent.

I realized that his handicapping was better mind. I had a pencil piece of paper and he had a computer. But although he was good at predicting, he knew nothing about batting. And you know, the batting strategy is almost as important as the handicapping. So eventually, in Kentucky, I was arrested for bookmaking, which was as guilty as I could be. And I moved to Las Vegas and decided to pursue a career as a full-time professional gambler. I didn't want to be involved in a bookmaking anymore. Fortunately, the case was adjudicated.

It was an explosion in my record, but the bottom line is that it's factual that's what happened. And I moved to Las Vegas in 1982. It was the best decision I ever made in my life, second of my wife's suit. We moved to a city that was built by the gaming industry and Gammer's weren't unfairly judged by any of our people.

And what I did when I moved there, I was basically making the best that Mike Cannon handicapped, and I was placing the best. That was my job. And I put together an organized group of veterans in Las Vegas, and then throughout the United States. And then in 1984, 1985, you know, because we were the first group of organized betters that would make them a lot of money, law enforcement at times, I had never seen or experienced anything like that. And they thought we were bookmakers,

and they thought we were affiliated with organized crime. Unfortunately it led to us being rated in 1985 under that pretense. And then, you know, even more unfortunate in 1990, we were indicted with being part of a criminal conspiracy charged with essentially conspiring to bet. So my wife, myself, and 13, 14 others went to Federal Court in Nevada, Las Vegas, Nevada, the gaming capital of the world in 1992 to defend ourselves from betting on sports. And, fortunately, the jury saw it for what it was, and we were exonerated, and we went forward. But over the years, I realized in the mid 80s that the advantage it might have, it was a roting date.

Other people were, people, people we could, people that are bookmakers and other petters. And everyone's getting smarter. Information was being more freely disseminated. And in order to stay at the game, I realized that I had to get others involved besides Mike. And that's when I started recruiting other handicappers. And because every handicapper that I worked with, basically every one of them got, you

know, they lost their edge. So whatever edge they had, it had finally been erosion that taken care of it. They ran out of ideas, they ran out of angles, and I worked with 25, 30, the greatest handicapped person in the world over a period of time, both quantitative and qualitative. But I knew their strengths, I knew their weaknesses, there would be times like my cat, every time I would have been a guest to them, based upon all the information I had. And then I had another thing that I incorporated with it, and that was from a gambler standpoint that a lot of quantitative guys don't understand. And a lot of experience also. So to see, like I said, legalized sports today,

and it's probably more competitive than it's ever been, but I still think there's opportunities to be able to identify edges. And I think even as difficult as it is, the way level of 10, I think if you manage yourself correctly, and you've got financial discipline, I think you can do that. Can you give us an idea of, and you talk about in the book

about how often your system iterates, right? And making many, many adjustments to it over the years as, you know, as, you know, it's long since been said. NFL home teams have a three-point advantage, right? Where you challenge that over the years or how things kind of have evolved. Can you give people an idea of what, just, you use football a lot of, as an example in the book,

an example of how you come up with what you see as a value play and how you place those bets, right? If you, you know, your success that you had eventually in this kind of flag, you know, you get flagged in certain places and your limits are, are, you know, enacted in certain places on certain accounts, which leads us to how this all has a big golf tie in, I think, eventually. So can you give us kind of an example of how you're trying to get these bets placed, who is placing them for you, who the beards are that you referred to,

that's this entire network of people that was blowing my mind? Well, over the years, I became a consistent whiter and smart bookmakers. They realized they warned the information, they warned as quick as they could get it because they knew they were gonna get it one way or the other. And they warned it directly. They warned as quick as they could get it because they knew they were going to get it one way or the other and They wanted it directly. They warned it so they could get it early

They could make adjustments in their line and they could take that information and actually make it our money for them a lot of bookmakers who frankly Didn't have that experience. They didn't have a lot of concern to be. They weren't very good bookmakers, this is put it that way. And the people who they work for, their position was, we're only going to book to basically guys who are losers and anyone who's a wise guy, we're not going to take these med. Well, 99% of the wise guys, basically, it's not the wise guy's, it's a sleepy bookmaker, so I give you an example.

Right now, there's information is by the second. I mean, you know, when you've got Twitter or whatever you've got, and if you have something that happens, it's key, whether it be in a golf tournament or a football game or whatever, you have a player who's injured playing football, you have a situation with weather that comes up with golf that's unexpected and you know that affects the people who play it a certain time of day or other things. And you got a material change and if you're a bookmaker and you don't change your number accordingly and you're sitting there with a sleepy number, and some guy comes in and bets you because you're a sleepy bookmaker. Is he a wise guy?

Are you a sleepy bookmaker? Well, on the other side of coin, you go in a better bookmaker. And let's see, you make a bet on some guys with off-term and all of a once, you make your best three, four, five days early. And then the weather changes, you go over there and your guys tee off and they're playing on the horrible. What do you got no chance? Well, look, my car's not going to give me a refund. If you've been on a football game and you're quarterback, after you've been on it and get to edge your practice, you're not going to get a refund. So the number of people that can win, that can win consistently, but in the major sports, I'm not talking about some obscore, you know, all Australian

soccer or something like that. I'm talking about the obscure, you know, Australian soccer or something like that. I'm talking about the NFL, college football, college basketball, especially once the college is going to conference. And golf, the number of people that can beat those are less than 1%. If you're afraid to book those sports, especially after the lines been out for a day or two or three days. If you're afraid to book those sports, you should not be a bookmaker. And if you're a publicly traded company and you're telling your shareholders, the reason not earning the money you should make is because of these wise guys, you're misleading.

I'll tell you a story in 1989, Jack Binyan, who is the best friend I have in the world, whose family, famous Binion family from Las Vegas, about a Binion's harsh shoe. He opened up the sports book. And I told Jack, I said, Jack, I won't bet you if you don't want me to. He said, Billy, it's just the opposite. I want you to bet in the first. I want you to bet in the Monday morning. I want you to just the opposite. I wouldn't get a bet in the first. I wouldn't get a bet in the Monday morning. I wouldn't get an open meal. He said, I want to get one more to get one more to get one where to get the other. I bet him 25,000 in game of colleges. I bet him $50,000 in game of profile.

And of course, he's a sports book. He was the most profitable sports book, Per Square for it, and the state of Nevada. MGM, when Jay Rudin was there, 10 to 12, 15 years. I could bet $50,000 game on college football, I could bet $100,000 game on pro football. They took my business, adjusted their lines accordingly. It was very profitable for them. Then you had certain bookmakers, well, I don't want these business,

I can't beat it. Well, they write about that part. But the part they didn't consider was, they were probably gonna get bet by 10, 15 of the people on the same game. They didn't know where it came from. When the game started or whatever happened, they were in there for a long,

on the wrong side of the game. So there's bookmaking, there's an art of bookmaking and an understand. The whole key to bookmaking is writing volume, writing business, collecting the 11 to 10. If Cassino's took the position, and a guy went and played Bokharov for two, three nights at a row and he won.

And they said, you're out of here, we don't want your business. The guy went to CREP Pit. He got on a high hand for a couple of three nights. He won. Don't worry about it, We don't want it. We don't want your business. Same thing with the Blackjack pit. You know, casinos wouldn't be in business. But what the public doesn't really realize is the up until recently, the guys who run the casinos, they understand that

there's going to be winners, there's going to be losers, and that's the way the game of business works. The casinos up into recently never looked at sports books, as they looked at it as almost an accommodation to the customer. They didn't believe there was money to be made there. Now they realize there's a lot of money to be made there, and some of them are treating it differently. Some of them are treating the same way as they did.

They are some people that have that type of philosophy that anyone wins, we're going to toss them out. And because what they're doing, because of their un-appreformance, when they're talking to the CEO, or whenever they're blaming it on some kind of wise guy, instead of the fact that, frankly, they're a sweetly-pup my career, and they're not very good.

I think the legalization of sports has been great. I think it's, but I think we have a long, long ways to go to actually achieve what it could be. So backing up though to how you, you know, you talk a lot about in the book about how you get a counselor hot, right? Or you're trying to mask that it's you betting in certain places, right?

For some of these books that maybe are not as welcoming to having your business, how, uh, what, what, what's the team look like that you formed to and, and how do you disseminate information? How do you, are you at, you know, back in the studio, crunching numbers, placing phone calls and go on? Can you tell us a little bit about how those, uh, those back in the day, maybe those bets were entered?

Sure. The, uh, it's time went forward. You always had bookm that wondered if it was one of the busiest busily you'd direct. That was difficult. Then you had bookmakers who, if you won, whatever, it'd make you nervous with success as they tossed you out. So a whole key to my personal, I was interested in one of the small amount of money. I was only interested in one of the large amount of money. In order to do that, you had to be able to make large bets. Well, the way sports are today, there's a perception that you can bet a lot of money on sports.

The reality is you can't, especially if you win or if you're dangerous. So I ended up creating accounts throughout the US and throughout the world, so to speak, but not so to speak throughout the world, primarily in Europe. The other thing I realized is a lot of bookmakers, if you gave them a lot of bets and the lines moved a certain way, you know, the majority of them moved the way you bet had, each and every time I changed what I was doing to make sure what we were doing was 100% legal. We had offices in Mexico, we had offices in the Bahamas, we had offices in Hangul and then when I quit in 2016, I prepared for the trial in the Southern District of New York. I had an office in Panama City, Panama. We had 1,600 accounts there, and we had accounts with bookmakers all around the world. In some cases, I would have multiple accounts with the same bookmaker. And the reason for that is, instead of giving them

30 or 40 bets a week, I'd give them three bets a week under each account, three or four. And then based upon how those bets did, I would change the order that I would use them to bet with next week. So, you know, as an example, if I gave Bookmaker three bets under a one account and we won two out of three and the lines all moved our way, I would make that account a red account, knowing, you know, if I continue to give the most kind of bets, they were going to throw

the account out. So the next week, I would make sure that I use that account to bet on games where it appeared the line was going the other way, or I would use them to bet the opposite of side of games that I wasn't really going to bet. I was going to bet the other side. On the other hand, if someone went in and made three vets and they lost two of their three and the lines moved the other way, then they would go into either the green or the yellow box, according to how they had done for the year. Every week we had to update those 1600 counts and figure out which area they fell in. And of course, the whole goal was to maintain as many sportsmen in the counts and vet as

much money as we could vet for the longest period of time we could do it in. And actually it was more work than handicap in the games. It was a tremendous amount of work. I almost felt like a CIA operator. So because it really was a cap-mouse game, and when the bookmakers are trying to throw us out and at the end of the day, you know, I'm looking to bet as much money as I can bet. So in order to do that, I had to be able to develop, but more importantly, retain accounts for a period of time. All of that is leading up to exactly what you're saying. You know, you are limited by these limits in a lot of different places. And you meet a man who has some different limits than you have, right? And I want you to tell us about how you end up meeting the

lefty golf or Phil Mickelson and how your guys' relationships started. Well, I met him and you're right. He did have bigger limits. But he was one of many over the years. I did partnerships with many people before him and after him. But I actually met him in 2006 at the AT&T of Pebble Beach. I had been fortunate to be able to cut.

I was playing with Freddie Yacht with Sonne. We got paired with Phil and his partner Steve Lyons on a Sunday and we played golf together at Clurley. I knew he was. I was a big fan of his and he become a parent to me and who I was. And we called us. We basically didn't know that we would discuss force the entire round of golf. And then I didn't see him again until 2008.

I played at the Walk Over You Championship and sure I was invited down by the bank. I was a customer. I played in Pro Am with Jim Fierrick and while I was there, when we got finished, I went into the locker room and I ran into Phil again. And this time he brought up a piece and I understand you do partnerships. I said, yeah, I do partnerships. And he explained to him if he had something

a place to bet I couldn't bet. And I could bet more money than we could possibly do a partnership. He did, and we developed a partnership. For we had a five year buddy in partnership and we had a friendship the last eight years. So how did the partnership for, we had a five year of buddy in partnership and we had a friendship the last eight years. So how did the partnership work, right? I mean, how is, he is partnering with you

for the information I'm assuming you have and for the placing of the bets and the picks, you're partnering with him for the limits that he has, the higher limits that he has, how did it work, how did the communications work and kind of how did that relationship go and what kind of success or not success did you guys enjoy? Well it was a simple partnership. It was a 50-50 partnership. He put up his money and I put up my money.

We did all of that. He had nothing to do with any selections. We were successful to the point that the bookmakers cut those accounts off. They wouldn't take best from them anymore. He found another account, well, he actually activated an account and an old account he'd had from before. And we bet it for a period of time until that account was finally shut off. And then he got involved in something that concerned me. He was involved with two other men with something

that had nothing to do with me. which led to the money laundering investigation. The case came along with the investigation then of the insider trading with the Dean Food Stock in New York and when it did, that was the end of our partnership. Once that investigation began, I discontinued any communication with him. I didn't want to create any perception of the government, the destruction of justice. So I wanted the investigation to carry its course and that's where our partnership ended. In the book, you detail specifically, how many times fill about $110,000? How many times you bet $220,000? How many, you know, 43 bets he placed on

a specific day in June? Are all of these play, you know, are these plays you know 43 bets he placed on a specific day in June are all of these play you know Are these plays you guys were partnering on or these just individual plays that that he was making at that time? Well, let me say something. I have no problem with forever filled with anybody else, but he knows sports I have no problem with amount of money. They better. They ask the certain honey. They can do where they want to do with it The reason that I put that in the book was because I wanted to, you know, to me, I've told about one thing, credibility. Either you have it or you don't have it. Either you're truthful or you're not truthful.

And Chuck makes book, it came out and it's close to the fact that he lost $40 million. And then later on he came out and he said, yeah, I lost $40 million. But clearly, he didn't really come clean about the entire thing. So I felt we needed to really set the record straight until a truth there. So we enter all this stuff in the area. I had a five year buddy relationship with him. And all of us we make, or I run my business like a business,

I mean, I have to have detailed records for the IRS have been ordered. And so every event we make it's whoever we make it with the time we make it with we win or lose and not some money. So we get all the detailed vets on everything that we did. After our partnership ended and before I wrote this book I ran into two other guys who have been doing business with them going back to 1995. And I was completely unaware of that.

If I'd been aware of it prior to the partnership, I would have never had a partnership with it. But I learned that he started this in 1995. I went to other guys and they also had detailed records. So part of the vets in there are vets from the relationship he had with them, that Armic Attain and myself, solid detail records, Argonne, grill these people like he wouldn't believe and got records are indisputable. And so part of them come from that and the other part come from his relationship he

had with me. Now all of the v's he made with him, with them, I'm sure were bets that he made. Some of the bets he had with me is what happened after we lost the bookmakers, there was no one to bet. So he asked me if I would make bets on games for him. It would benefit me if I did because the bookmakers I was struggling to keep, if I could give them other best-versized mod bets, it meant to me I could keep those accounts longer. So the understanding was, if there was a game that I wasn't against, he wanted to battle something such as that,

and it had no conflict whatsoever with what I was doing. I would place the med for it. And some of those meds were actually those meds. Not many, but there are some. And so it's made up of vets that he and I made his partners. It's made up of vets. I placed for him and his request to the bookmakers who I was bedding. And it's made up of the detailed records. These are the two gentlemen brought forward that went from 1995 until I think they ended in

2007 or eight or some of them were at the same time that he was doing business with me that I was on a war. And that's how I ended up getting the money laundering investigation because it involved these two other gentlemen and nothing to do with me. And actually one of those gentlemen went to federal prison for it. Or except in his 2.8 million dollar wire transfer that he asked the guy to do as a favor. So that money laundering investigation was, do you mind just laying out the details of that again? You had nothing to do with that but that was fill settling a gambling debt through another person that ended up getting investigated.

Well, these other two fellows that I'm referring to, they had sent him up some accounts, especially that they were actually the same accounts that he and I had after they cut me and he and I all because we were one. He goes back and he did these two accounts reactivate it through these two guys and they were casted he had before. The early guys originally got him for a new start-up and I think he owed $2.8 million as well to deal with these offshore books. So at the same time to pay them, his bank's one wouldn't understand it, his bank would borrow the money of these offshore bookmakers.

So he asked this guy, he borrowed the money to him and he would pay the offshore bookmakers. So he asked this guy, he wore the money to him, and he would pay the offshore bookmakers. And he got a degree to do it as a favor, and he wired him $2.8 million. Well, money shows up in a bank, and the bank turns it in as a suspicious activity, which they should have, and they did. Can that lead to an investigation? And investigation included the federal authorities, and while I was, it was money laundering. I mean, anytime someone asked you to wire something to someone else to face someone else, that's money laundering.

And that's what it was. What I didn't know at the time is, until after I decided to write this book, he'd been to a busily same people since 1995, so although I think an investigation into the Wood Wire Transfer, I don't know how many of them were. And this investigation had been going on for a period of time, and I know they were deeply concerned. What happened is my case came along.

The SEC won, the interview failed about some stock heatball, and he took the fifth amendment. And when I already took the fifth amendment, I confronted him and asked him, why just tell the truth? And he said, well, my lawyers were concerned that they'll ask me questions about, the other investigation.

I said, well, I was just explained to him, I'm going to answer questions about this talk transaction, and I wouldn't answer any questions. He said, well, my lawyers think they may force me to. I said, well, you're making a huge mistake. Anyway, he chose to take the fifth amendment with them, and of course the investigation continued. I think that had a large part to do with it. I mean, why would you take the fifth amendment? So anyway, eventually, the rest of the stories of the book, I went in detail and explained it, but as a case went forward, this issue that he had with a money laundering, one of these other two gentlemen, he hired an attorney in Washington DC, a

very influential attorney, they were able to work out the settlement. And the settlement is money laundering case one of the way as far as he was concerned, the other gentleman went to prison. And there was a public statement issued that he gave back almost a million dollars as a maintenance stock transaction. They had a press conference and because of the old

and filled celebrity, the story went viral and went all over the world and anyone who looked at it, you're going to come to want it to conclusions. Either he's a minister of victory within an insider trading case or he's guilty and he bought his way out. Neither one were true, but the bottom line was from a public opinion standpoint, it made me look completely guilty. So the impression was out there of a public opinion, why would somebody give a million dollars back in them? And a financial transaction, if you've done nothing wrong, or someone didn't do something wrong. And it was devastating to me because I couldn't say anything at the time publicly.

And so when I went to trial in New York City, it was in New York newspapers. Everybody was anticipating Phil was going to come forward and testify in the case. Well, he'd already given two interviews to the FBI. He told me. And he didn't finically deny that I'd ever given him any insight, any insight information. But the public perception was out there and when we were doing the jury selection, the jurors, a number of them asked you if Phil Nicholson was going to testify in the trial. We believe that he would come and testify because he had told us he would.

I knew the government prosecutors were going to call him because he'd already been interviewed by the FBI. He told them that he didn't get any inside information. So when it came time for him to come for a testifying, as lawyers told my lawyers, he's taking a fifth amendment. Well, if someone tells you they're taking a fifth amendment, you cannot call them to testify. Well, then in 11th hour, I come back to meet your friend because he and I couldn't have any contact and meet your friend contacting him and I just ask him out begging to just issue a public statement and he said he would. Of course he never issued a public statement.

So in my trial there was only one witness against me and we impeached his credibility was only one witness against me and we impeached his credibility countless times. It felt to come forward and testify out and just simply told the truth that I never gave him any insolveration. You might have been interrupting here, Billy, just to set the scene for the listeners for the Dean Foods. You guys, amongst your betting, you guys are also having, you have conversations, you had some, can you tell us a little bit about the kind of the stock trading aspect of your relationship information sharing and as well as kind of your history

with Dean Foods, your purchases and, and because I, again, surface knowledge for a lot of people is that you guys got a tip on Dean Foods and you acted on it. That's what people know, but there's more to the story from what's in the book. First and foremost, I don't need to need food stock for 10 years, off and off. The way that Dean Foods conversation came up with Phil, he and I played golf on that rental set to pay.

We got finished in the grill we were having lunch. And he asked me, he said, out of all the stocks you own, which was a two-year-like the best. And I told him a company named Hamlin Pharmaceuticals that was a San Diego bout that company. And I told him a company named Hamlin Pharmaceuticals that was a San Diego biotech company and Dean Foods. And I told him I've been invested in it for 10 years. And they had three divisions. One was a division that had large amount of growth and the stock was undervalued because of the value of this division, white wave.

So he goes home and buys stock in Dean Foods. I mean, just a settle. But more importantly, I told him, he and I had lunch in July. The company reported earnings in May. And in May, they were asked questions about spending off white wave. The way the questions were answered, it was obvious that everyone believed

they were gonna spend off white wave. Two years prior to that in 2010, the company made a public statement, they hired an outside agency to come in and do an evaluation about spending off white wave. When they announced they were gonna spend off white wave, nobody was surprised. It wouldn't have mattered, it wouldn't have mattered if it was just a matter of win because the company discussed

this publicly two years prior to that and they were being asked by shareholders to spend it off to unlock this value. In May of that year, Deutsche Bank came out with a report predicting they were going to spend it off. Jim Kramer was talking about it on CNBC. Well, they had public, they reported publicly in May of that year. And again, the CEO, if you listen to the recording, it's very apparent that White Waves on the board

have been split off. Well, July, two months later, we had this conversation. There's a huge drought in the United States. Corporate prices have gone through the roof. They're constantly going up substantially. The stock got hammered because of this drought. And the stock was actually down below the one I paid for and made when I bought it.

And I told Phil, I said, look, they've spent this company off. You're gonna make four or five bucks a share. If they don't spend it off, this drought's gonna to end and I think the stocks really cheap anyway. So you want to buy some stock, mutter sold later, they announced earnings, they confirmed they were going to spend off white wave. He sold this stock made whatever he made and I heard $50,000 a million. I didn't sell a share of mine. I bought another million shares and paid the additional $4.5 a share.

But that's the only stock conversations he and I ever had. We never had any before our sins. And I don't know what prompted them, but I mean, he just happened to bring it up. I recommend those two companies and he bought stock and Dean Fooves, something more or less. And that's what you say in the book and you said here as well, that, you know, once you were investigated for the insider trading aspect of this, you believe that Phil's testimony would have been enough to keep you out of prison. And then if he would have taken the stand and said that there was no inside

information you guys were trading on, you would have been able to avoid the 30 month, uh, 30 months, you just spend a Pensacola prison. It was actually 31 and we near prison at that month. I understand that. But, yeah, there's only one witness against me in this trial. He'd have to understand the circumstances with that. This guy, two years before this, had gone to the SEC and given a voluntary interview and did not, and fatically, he'd ever given me

any inside information. And then after his interview, the FBI learned that he had embezzled money from a better women's charity, he had filed a fraudulent tax return. He'd actually given inside information to someone else. So two years later, he goes and he's looking at a lot of talent presence and he decides to change his story. He goes and hires a former federal prosecutor in New York representing who had just left

us of the district, who had worked with these same prosecutors who prosecuted me for eight years. And I, that became his lawyer. They had to have 29 proffer sessions. The proffer sessions they had had 29 meetings with the prosecutors to get their story straight. That was the only witness against me. Well my attorney is at a magnificent job. We caught him at least 30 lives on a witness and he had no credibility. You know, the biggest mistake I made in the trial, I should have testified. My lawyers believed they said, look, if the jury came and believed this guy, they can't

convict you. And nobody could believe it. And for sure, if Phil had come and testified, here's Phil, Michael, some of his celebrity, he came forward and testified that I never gave him any insight or information. They're going to hurt from two people. This guy here that I just described and they're going to hear from Phil Mickelson. In retrospect, the big-smusplake I made was myself not testifying. But if Phil had testified, I am assured that I am looking at you, I would have never gone to prison. Going back to some of Phil's betting, you say in the book that he

wagered over a billion dollars, you know, over the last several decades, the only person you know that has wagered more than that is you. What do you see out of out of Phil's gambling habits? I think there's a, you know, a story to be told there on how it has led to potentially a shake up in the entire professional golf world. But you say in there that you saw some of your younger self in Phil and you had to offer him some quiet counsel at some point. What was that counsel? Well, I mean clearly, anytime you've got something that your emotions are controlling your decisions, you're not in charge.

Phil's an action man, just like I'm an action man, we all, different people, have different things that they kind of get to are driven up so to speak. And the thing that I kind of saw with Phil is, I can say, and the same things that I saw in myself. When he got a loser, he wasn't a controller, his emotions as much as he should have been or I was actually when I was younger. And so as a result, I'm sure he probably lost a lot more money than he intended to lose. But what happens is it's not only going to happen to Phil, it's going to happen to a lot of people, but in sports, I don't care what level you bet at. If you get loser and you start chasing losses, then

you quit using good sound solute. Just decision making in your bets and you don't play within your means. You're going to end up having some heartache in your life and you're going to have some problems. And gambling can be just as addictive as drugs. It can be as addictive as alcohol. Make a mistake about it. And I do think Phil probably had an addiction to gambling. I had an addiction to gambling. And when you go into addiction and stuff and you're not totally in control of your decisions, sometimes you make It's a lot of them. And I do. When you look at the totals that you outline in there compared to Phil's income and his celebrity and his endorsement deals, is it alarming?

Is he betting too much money if you look at this? Or can he afford this lifestyle on top of taxes and private airplanes and things like that? Did you get a sense that he was getting himself in trouble with the amounts that he was losing? First of all, I think it's his business to start with him and he's fucking, but second of all, I don't think he was playing

the games these means. I mean, Phil McClell sort of making 56 to me in bucks a year. He made a tremendous amount of money. I mean, he was worth $250 million when he and I were, we had a many relationships together and he was earning a lot of money. I mean, he was worth $250 million when he and I were, we had a many relationships together and he was earning a lot of money. So, everything's relative, you know, I mean, the thing that concerns me more than anything was legalized gambling is, you know, a guy that's setting his basement someplace in Indiana, or Kentucky, and he's playing a bike track over something. He's got his last $200.

He's lost his life savings. That's what concerns me more than Phil Mickelson lose on $100 million bet sports. He might have lost $100 million bet sports, which was $200 million after taxes or whatever it expenses, but he's still made another $800 million or whatever he made. So, no, and frankly, like I said, everybody's a little different here. It's his business wherever he did. As long as he reported properly with these taxes and I understand he's a helping figure and people want to criticize him for that.

I'm not one of those people. I don't criticize him at all for that. And I can answer your question. I think he can afford what he does. And, but it's like to me, he's getting along pretty good. If I, the one, the area that it made crossover for a lot of sports fans is the incident you alleging the book that he wanted to place a $400,000 wager on the 2012 United States writer cup team through you. What was your reaction when you got that phone call?

And what was that conversation like? I couldn't believe it. By that time, I'd known it for a period of time. And up until that time, there had never even remotely been any kind of discussion about betting on golf, anybody else betting on golf or anything else. And it's obvious for anyone to see. Phil gets pretty excited about things, and he gets pretty charged up, and he can get

pretty high or pretty low. But so he's up at the Ryder Cup in the down. He calls me. He wants to bet $400,000 on the US team to win the Ryder Cup. And I was just a couldn't believe it. I said, man, if you lost your mind, and actually I used a few explicit words. And I said, don't you know what happened to P. Rose?

I said, you know, you're viewed to be a modern day or a Palmer. I said, you know, don't even, I said, I don't want any part of it. And he said, yeah, yeah, yeah. And I'm fairly confident he came to his senses and probably never made the bad. I didn't say ever made the bad. I just said he called me and he attempted to make the bad.

And I think he just kept public hearing away with the moment. He was so sure they were going to win. But I don't think he was thinking when he called me and he caused ramifications if I did that for him. And it could have ever been proven. His career would have been over. I want to give him a benefit of the doubt. I think it was just an error in judgment. I think he got excited. But it happened. There's no question it happened. It's a truth. But before then or after then, I've never ever seen, he never mentioned to me about Beton and Niko for Mungoff and I've never heard of him. Never bet on Nicolom Goffo. Then Beton himself on a golf course and a man to man bet. That's what you had some creative phrasing in his statement he made this week's A&E. I never

bet on the Ryder Cup but he didn't deny that he attempted to bet through you which seems to be his creative phrasing lately. We're all cut out with different cut of cloth. I don't understand that. I think if you just square up with people, and instead of saying, okay, I never been on golf, I mean, again, like I say, we're all cut out with a little different cut of cloth. I know what I was said.

Look, yeah, I call. I was excited. Frankly, it, I call. I was excited. Frankly, it was a mistake and I realized it and I never did it before. I never did it since. I mean, to me, but again, like I said, everybody answers things differently, but he answered it correctly and he's pressed the conference. He never he never battled. I never said he battled. How did you guys leave your relationship? Let's last last time you spoke or kind of, you know, you talk a little bit about in the book, there was a gambling debt he had towards you

that lingered for quite some time. And obviously ends pretty awkwardly with you, you know, him not taking the stand to testify on your behalf, but how have you guys left it if you hadn't communications? Well, I went to President for 31 months. I had some family issues. I have a son who's severely intellectually challenged

and he almost died two or three times. And every time that came up, a lot of things go through your mind and feel not testifying those one of those. And then I had a daughter who committed suicide and slept the longer forgive me poor. Has he attempted to mend the relationship at all? Is there any any help there?

I was playing golf at Rachel's. I played one day with some friends. I was coming out the range. I hated the cart and he walked up to me. And this is not a club who's got it. And we had a brief conversation and he told me how good it was to me back on the golf course. And I was glad he was.

And he went on the slayway. Three is I didn't testify. And so I went to New York. He said, I don't know what Tom Davis told you. I said, no one asked you to testify to what Tom Davis told me. I said, don't give me the bullshit. I said, all to ask you to testify to what Tom Davis told me. I said, don't give me the bullshit. I said, all anyone wanted you to do was testify to what I told you. That's the only thing you could testify to.

And then I made him aware of the fact that my donor committed suicide in prison, and he said he was sorry. And that's the last time I spoke to him. You know, the thing is is when I went to prison, though first of all, when the issue came up and I was indicted, he held his press conference and said he was gonna be a lot more careful about the people the associate himself with,

preferring to me. And at the same time, he had just gone into a partnership or Brian Zuroff and they had started to show the match. And Brian's a convicted fellow. I know Brian. I'm only making appointments with a convicted fellow because just to show you how big a hypocrite fellow is. He has a press conference.

He's dissonant of himself from me because I'm a convicted fellow but at the same time, you know, he's in a partnership with a convicted fellow, but at the same time, you know, he's in a partnership with a convicted fellow. And so anyway, as in prison, it was difficult. It was difficult because when I saw it in my door, and although I like to, I don't think I'll ever be able to forget it for that. What has, you know, you, we don't probably don't have time today to detail all the, of what life was like in prison, but what, what, what what we don't know what the readers don't know is what has life been like outside of prison for you now that you've been out for some time. How do you view the world differently and how have the last few

years been? Yeah, I mean, we all think we know and understand what freedom means. You check into a prison and you lose 100% of all your freedom, and then you really appreciate all the men and women who have died. And wars to defend our freedom. But I went to prison. There was nothing at all good about prison. There was only one positive thing about prison is I end up mentoring 2,000 men in prison. And that was very positive.

But it also gave me a completely different outlook on what prison was all about. Like everybody else, you know, you know their prisons, but unless it directly involves you or a loved one, you really don't know what prison does to someone or their family. And so mentoring these two dozen men, when I came out of this determined to kind of do something to make the prison system better.

Don't misunderstand me, we need prisons. There are people who need to be in prison. But a lot of people who come out of prison deserve a second chance. And for those who do, I think we as a society need to be, we need to provide that. So when I got out of prison, I started working with Harry Reid. Harry Reid was a good friend of mine and although he was retired, he still had a tremendous amount of influence. And unfortunately he passed away with pancreatic cancer before we could get it done. What I wanted to do was to put vocational schools in the federal prisons, where someone who's deserving could go there and get a trade,

an electrician, a plumber, an air-conditioned repur, something such as that. That way they could go home, they could have a job, and I think it could possibly have a generational change. The children's father would no longer be a career criminal. They would be electrician, a plumber, something like that, and maybe the children may follow that footsteps to that of a career cremation. Well, Senator Eadahal, I got introduced to a reentry program in the Las Vegas, a federal about prison reentry program is called Hope for Presidents.

And actually the former sheriff of Clark County, Bill Young, is the one that made me aware of, I met this guy, John Pondert. And he started this in 2012. They only have a 7% recidivism rate. And this is over years. It's really unbelievable. And John had gone in season nine, we gave them some financial support, and they added facilities.

And then we've recently given some additional financial support. We work with the governor, Governor Lombardo and the Congressional. They had a crisis area and we're putting vocational schools in the state prisons in Nevada. And I can't tell you how proud I am of that and I'm proud to be associated with hope for prisoners. Well, I listen, I could get a story from you for hours and I'm sure I want to be conscious of your time. I flagged about a dozen stories that we haven't even gotten to from the book. So I would encourage listeners to go get it.

There's a whole heck of a lot more that we haven't covered in this one. But I'm going to pick one. I want you to tell listeners a little bit about how, again, you detail a lot of stuff in the book about how you gained edges in different kinds of betting. I did not know that edges could be gained in roulette. I want you to tell us a little bit about how you how you gained an edge in roulette and then had some success in that at times. Sure, it was in the 80s and you know lost bankers is full of all types of folks and so basically a couple of guys came to me and this idea that they had a system to be reliant, they wanted me to put up the money and any money we won we'd split.

I didn't do the deal with them. I saw what it was for, they were a couple of comments. But it didn't treat my interest in my bottle of letwheel. I disassemble it. I realize real letwheels are mechanical devices, well, different than a car or anything else. And if not properly maintained, they could basically end up creating an imbalance in the wheel. So I started taking numbers on wheels. I would take about 3,000 numbers as a small sampling plane.

And then I had a little program, I could run a program and see if there was a tentative bias and if we thought, if I thought there was, then I could go back and get say another 27,000 on research to run a bigger program. And as a result, I found, basically I found out all of the lit wheels are biased, not many are biased enough in order to be able to overcome the outsides, but there were a few. And once I identified that I felt like they were fast enough that I could overcome the outsides, I played those reletuals and I bet on them and, unfortunately, my theory was right and I wanted to change them on a money play and relet for a And I was, I was a little bit more than I was.

I was a little bit more than I was. I was a little bit more than I was. I was a little bit more than I was. I was a little bit more than I was. I was a little bit more than I was. I was a little bit more than I was. I was a little bit more than I was. I was a little bit more than I was.

I was a little bit more than I was. I was a little bit more than I was. I was a little bit more than I was. I was a little bit more than I was. I was a little bit more than I was. I was a little bit more than I was. I was a little bit more than I was. I was a little bit more than I was. I was a little bit more than I was. I was a little bit more than I was. I was a little bit more than I was. I was a little bit more than I was. heck of a lot of characters that are introduced into this and some other, you know, some friends

you've made along the way, some enemies you've made along the way. And like I said, I think this is either an hour episode or a 10 hour episode. Anything else would be hard to do at all justice. But like I told you before we started going, I don't think this, I don't think your life's a movie, it's a multi-season Netflix series. It'd be hard to get it all in the course of one movie. And I want to thank you for spending some time with us and for writing the book and for sharing some stories with us today. I know you've had a hectic week with the launch this week and we greatly, greatly appreciate your time. Hope to do it again sometime. Like I said, we got some more stories to get from you. Well, thank you. I really, really enjoy your program. I love what you guys are doing and just keep it up.

I'm a big fan. Thank you, Billy. Cheers and we will chat soon. Thank you. Appreciate it. It's a good right club. Be the right club today. That is better than most. How about it?

That is better than most. Better than most. How about in? That is better than most. Better than most.