No Laying Up - Golf Podcast - NLU Podcast, Episode 764: Michael Kim

Episode Date: November 15, 2023

Soly catches up with Michael Kim for a true golf nerd discussion covering: His social media presence and embracing his role as one of the Mules on tour. (7:15) His opinion on the decision makers on potential outside investment into the tour and how important the effects on his level of player will prove to be in the decision making process. (16:10) The depths of the struggles he dealt with in his game, working to find a way out of those struggles and the search for the right swing coach to help in that process. (37:10) A more thorough explanation of some of his tweets regarding how pros approach their swing thoughts, the distance debate, and more. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

I'm going to be the right club today. Yes. That is better than most. How about him? That is better than most. Better than most. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to the No Laying Up podcast. Solid here, got an interview coming shortly with Twitter star Michael Kim, enjoyed really, really nerding out with him. This was for Sikko's only as we talk a little bit about a lot about the golf swing actually.

Some ups and downs he's gone through. What he's learned in that process a little bit about what lot about the golf swing actually. Some ups and downs he's gone through what he's learned in that process a little bit about. What's going on in the golf world, but he self described as a mule. Great to hear from a mule on a lot of these topics as well. Great conversation with Michael. I want to give a shout to our friends at Roeback active where we are deep into fall quickly approaching the holiday season. Roeback is ready. Fresh off new stocks are favorite polos hoodies and quzips. Trust us when we say there

isn't better gear for the remainder of fall golf. The fit, the feel, the quality. It's all perfect. It's great to wear around the house too. You know it's not just for golf. Definitely not just for golf. They also just released their brand new performance crews. They are soft and so comfortable

TC one had one on yesterday. I was very envious of it. It's breathable. It's got lightweight fabric. It's also got perfect stretch, great for the course or a night out. You know they've got the best performance hoodies. I don't need to tell you about these. My favorite hoodies to wear around the house fabric is so soft. We can't take it off the baby loves to nap on rowback hoodies. I can confirm that. You can pair these bad boys up with the new rowback five pocket pant. Cannot wait to get my hands on some of these, everything that we have ever touched

that rowback has made has jipped and just fantastic. So now that it is the holiday season, load up on some rowback for both yourself and for others use code NLU at rowback.com for a generous 20% off your first order through the end of this week that's rhoback.com, 20% off bottoms, qz Zips hoodies and more with code NLU get ready for the holiday season with rowback. Here's Michael Kim.

All right, we're about five months late on this one. We originally scheduled this interview for June 6, 2023. It turns out some things happened on that day at a guy lost in the shuffle and kept getting bumped and bumped and we decided to make this an off season one. But what spurred you becoming a one of golf's biggest Twitter influencers? If I may say you're you're one of the the few like bright spots of Twitter in the past couple of years. I'm not sure if I'm quite at that level, but I think what first started, I got rid of my Instagram for one because I just felt like it wasn't doing any positive influence and I felt the need to kind of keep up with at least one and Twitter or X was much better for me and that I don't have to take pictures all the time or

videos all the time. I could just kind of get away with words. And I think it really started last year at the fries, or sorry, safe way. I got paired with Max the first two days. And just for whatever reason, Max and I's career, like we never played well at the same time. When he was playing well. I was playing bad. And when I was playing well, he wasn't playing as well. And it was kind of like, I was amazed at the following he had, that safe way, just the amount of people. We were kind of like the featured

group a little bit. But just seeing Max's brand grow was definitely an eye opener. And you know, Max Homo to me and to you is just a close friend that I grew up playing golf with. And so I think playing with Max certainly pushed me to kind of use this and maybe grow the brand or just just interact with fans and get my name out there a little bit. Have you gotten much out of it? I mean, you know, your posts do really well. There's a lot of engagement on all of it. There's a lot of views that happen and it feels very informative to you know, casual golf fans, hardcore golf fans and the like. Has it been rewarding at all for you? A little bit. I think Twitter pays me like an average of a hundred bucks. So I did need

financially. But you know, I've been on tour for maybe seven, eight years now and I am easily lost as one of the mules for sure. And you know, me being, you know, Asian and I kind of put one of myself at myself, it's really easy to get lost as if it's just one of the 200 other PGA tour members. And it's kind of crazy to me that, just some Twitter posts here and there, I definitely have a couple of people a day it seems like at a tour event at at least come up to me and say,

yeah, I really enjoyed Twitter and I still feel like it's kind of growing and building. So, you know, maybe in a few years it can definitely benefit me even more on a more serious note. I guess, you know, as PGA store stuff continues to change and evolve and whatnot over. I was planning to talk to you about this five months ago, but things have changed a lot in the last five months and all that.

But how closely are you following everything that is happening? We played Monday, Pro-M yesterday with Harris English. And he was just kind of like, yeah, man, I mean, he's up there, right? As far as, you know, his talent and resume in the golf world. He's like, yeah, I'll wait till they tell me what's happening. I was like, yeah, I'll wait till they tell me what's happening. I was like, man, that's just wild for your career. Where are you at in that? You classified yourself as a mule. I did not say that.

Listen, just record. But it seems like a lot of stuff is getting decided for you guys. And what is that like to go through and how closely are you following it? I mean, I'm along with Harrison, a bunch of other guys that are in kind of the medium to kind of back end players. I think we're just kind of along for the right at this point. I've spoken more with Charlie Hoffman in the last and you know, I would have thought knows more that's you know going along more than more than certainly me, but sometimes he's even kept in the dark.

I'm paying attention. I'm certainly paying more attention to the emails that the tour gives us. podcast like you guys who I feel like have better information that have better information than I have. So at this point, we're just, I feel like I'm just going along for the ride and hopefully, hopefully as I played better, maybe I'll have more say in the future. Do you, what kind of faith do you have in, you know, not on, you know, the players are on the policy board, the executives at the PGA tour, the board, the actual independent directors that are on the board, then calling Neville as an advisor to the players on this.

A lot of people involved in this, making these decisions. What kind of faith do you have in the people that are representing your class of player and representing all classes of players at that level? I guess it just depends on like, what am I trying to get out of this? I mean, I'm certainly happy to be playing on the PGA tour

and, you know, with all these changes happening so fast, it just feels like it's a little bit out of control at times but at the same time, you know, I know guys like Kido Malnadi and Web Simpson definitely have guys like me interest the heart. A couple of the guys probably not let me out much less so for sure. I'm sure you can guess who or who but you know it's it's it's tough right it's things are moving so fast I think this whole fifth live sendaway sports group it's kind of like almost a make a break for a lot of these guys on tour. For I'm sure Jay is taking it very seriously.

And you know, it is like not a small amount of players and people around that think, you know, Jay's not doing it the job or that he should be fired. So, you know, everyone's taking this very seriously and we'll see how it goes. And you know, whether it's ends up being great or bad we'll just have to see I guess. I said here on this show and a lot of recap shows and I say to you know to the mule class if you will I would say out loud and also I'll say it to you as

well not not directed at what you just said there but I'll say like hey life's pretty good for in terms of what you went a fall series event, Luke list, one of fall series event and made 1.4 more than 1.4 million dollars. Um, that your, your class of player gets a lot, a lot of starting opportunities, a lot of events you play in, you know, do I, I, I also believe, and I think you're going to agree with me in this. A lot of that value is subsidized by the top players in the game that drive the eyeballs, the drive, the media deals and all of that to say,

look, even whatever the structure ends up at, I don't think that your class of player is going to get, is going to lose out on a whole heck of a lot. It might be less in terms compared to the top guys, like that gap might grow a little bit, but I'm of the opinion that that gap can afford to grow a little bit. What's your reaction to any of that? Do you agree to disagree with any of that? 100%. I mean, selfishly for me, I'll try a little bit more access here and there to signature events like me playing the Wells Fargo this year was a pretty big deal. I finished seventh,

made a whole lot of money, but I am certainly in the cab like look no one really or very few are buying tickets or tuning in to television to watch me play golf and me specifically they're tuning in to watch the PGA tour they're tuning in to watch Rory against rom or Rory against maybe an underdog maybe me but, but yeah, at the end of the day, worry is still the headliner or ROM or whoever you want to add in there. I am certainly happy with where I'm at on the tour. I'm certainly happy and selfishly I'd like to be in the signature events, but a win here definitely gets you in for next year's signature events and there are a couple of things we're like not having an alternates, which I think is truly like a tra the 51st guy gets in or not. So that is kind of a separate conversation,

but I certainly agree with you that I am certainly happy with where I am. And like you said, my earning potential doesn't change a whole lot. They're not taking away from our pie and adding it to theirs. They're just kind of bringing in a separate pie for themselves, which is fine. I totally get it. What's your reaction to hearing that there is the potential for equity to be dulled out to players

through this investment, the potential investment's coming in on top of the PIF, potential investment coming in if the framework agreement ever gets agreed to. How do you see that shaking out? And do you expect that, you know, a reward on your end? You know, I'm curious if you're reaction to that. I know we're dealing with hypothetical here because there's no details on the deal.

But when you hear that, what's your kind of reaction? I'm a bit cynical at heart. So whenever I hear, like, I'm like, it's like, I mean, okay, like if Tiger Rory get a piece, then okay, sure, but like is the 12th man on the FedEx cup? Like, I don't even know how that even works. Like, you can't just make equity out of thin air. It's, you know, there's a certain, and some that you can only give you up so many times. So that just seems like a bit of, you know, lullaby to be honest with you. Certainly I'm not going to get offered a neck with these steak unless I win the FedEx Cup next year. So it's, I mean, it's great if it somehow works out,

but I kind of have my doubts about it for sure. Yeah, that's that's kind of, you know, the the the tying the loop on that conversation was just, back to the question on how much do you trust the guys that are making the decisions, right? Is, you know, a lot of making that equity make sense goes down to how do you come up with it? You know, because some of the guys that are getting the rewards are part of the, you know, the group that that comes up with this criteria, it just has a potential to really blow up and be, you know, you know, contentious But it because there's just the word I keep hearing is transparency, right? And I struggle a little bit with the transparency part because it seems to me to be really difficult and listen to PJ Tours taking plenty of shots from us and from all media,

you know, but I it's difficult in my mind to communicate all of these not finalized things to 200 plus members at varying stake levels. I mean, where are you at in terms of how things have been communicated to you? The transparency thing has been an issue that the players have come up with, you know, since I turned pro for a really long time. So I think that's part of the frustration is to see us not involved in such a big matter. But at the same time, I kind of get understand your point and the towards point, like we can't let you in on every single phase of this massive negotiation that's happening. But, you know, at the same time, like they are sending way more emails to us trying to kind of divvy up some of the grander scheme. Hey, we are working on these things. Like, for example, the, you know, I got today,

basically didn't tell us anything, but it showed that, hey, we are working on this and, you know, these are kind of the steps we're looking into and stuff like that. So I'd, you know, hire Jason Gore and stuff like that. You can see they're making some effort. But like, I totally understand like, you can't tell everyone and honestly, not all of us should have an opinion to be fair. Like, we're at the of the day, we're all just going to look for ourselves. And whatever situation we're currently in, that's what we're going to try to, you know, push for benefit. Like let's face it, like we are really good at playing golf. We have not, we know nothing about making billions of dollars in negotiations.

And, you know, kind of going back to that was a June six that that Canadian meeting where where tempers and and emotions are flying out and that was my next question take me to that meeting oh my things are said in that in that meeting I'm not going to name based but I was like like, there's no way that you should be having an opinion on this. I know what person you're referring to, and I mean, all you have to say it. I was just like, I mean, it became so emotional at that point where it just was like meaningless to be there. And I had such high expectations of like, oh my gosh, like things are going to go down.

You know, Jay's gonna have to answer some tough questions. Rory's gonna be there. And it kinda just was like deflating for the most part. You know, Jay tried to answer some questions. Guys just got ended up getting mad and it was a bit of a waste of time to be honest with you. Well, on a completely different note, you've enjoyed as a career renaissance, is that a, you know, is that a fair phrase to say before we get into that,

I want to know if I, if I pull up your data golf page, there's a lot of red in the Strokes game off the T category for several years there. Take us into what was going on there and how you dug yourself out of that. Oh, man. I mean, it's so red. They might need another color for how red it was back then. Yeah. So I think it's kind of a, I mean, it's, it's, it's a few years, right? It's not like a, it's a month process. For those that are, yeah, those that are not looking at the numbers, it goes for, it for 2018 minus 0.107 minus 1.58 minus 1.84 minus 1.31.

So four straight years there of losing more than a stroke per round off the tea. And guys like Rory and John Rom are gaining like a full shot. That's literally, you know, that's not, you know, to me, that's not just a two stroke difference. That's also the the amount of stress I felt like I was putting on myself during the round. Like I said, it started in 2018. myself during the round. Like I said, it started in 2018. So 2018, I get off to not a great start in the year. I'm missing cuts. And even if I make cuts, I'm finishing 60, 70, it's barely hanging on. And it's an amazing page for people to go. It 20 28 season. I'm just going to do it. I'm sorry cut T 28 cut cut T 50 T 23 cut cut T 57 cut T 43 cut 77 cut cut cut T 18 cut cut cut cut winner of the John Deere classic on July 15th 2018 no top 10s

Classic on July 15th, 2018. No top 10s Before that or after that that season a lot of miss cuts and a a PGA tour championship trophy that week that year I call about lightning in a bottle. I I caught lightning in a bottle So, you know, like you said before I'm not having a great year and I was working on things with my coach Who I had been working with since 2010. So, you know, I had a lot of success with them in college and, you know, getting my PGA tour card. But it became, it got to a point where it felt like I was just, we were just throwing stuff at the wall and seeing what stuck week to week, just, you know, seeing if this work that worked and at the players is when I kind of decided I was like I think I'm going to have to make a change. At coaches and so at travelers in 2018 I met with John Tillery and did a couple days with them made a couple of days with them, made a couple of changes,

travelers didn't go well. Actually, I missed, I think all my cuts, heading into John Deere that year. And so, but the week prior, I felt at the green briar I want to say, was I felt like I was hitting it better. And even, you know, a couple of the players in Caddy's I was playing with, I was like, no, you're definitely playing better, but you just weren't getting anything going.

And then John Deere happens, I catch lightning in a bottle. I win by eight shots. And part of that, a big part of that obviously, I gained, I want to say 13 and a half strokes putting or something like some outrageous number putting and that's how you win by 8 I guess. But you know I win and I'm thinking like wow this is it like I'm finally made the change to you know hitting the ball better, driving it better. And so after that starting in that that off season, JT and I, we decided to make kind of long-term changes and not like band-aid to kind of patch things through. And, you

know, long story short, like for a year and a half, we're trying to make these changes and none of them really ended up working out, you know, when you're trying to make these big changes with your swing. And especially with the driver for me, you know, you start paying less attention to your short game, your putting, and all theance later, you stuff. And so, you know, just kept kind of digging that whole deeper and deeper for about after doing that for about a year and a half. I was like, maybe I just need to do something completely different and reached out to George Gankas. And if you kind of know JT and George Gankas is philosophy,

like literally polar opposites. But that was when Matt Wolf was starting to come on, like a lot of these guys had gone to Gigi and saw success, especially with the driver. And I did see some benefits, like I certainly gained distance pretty quickly, but my biggest struggles off the tee were kind of the big right miss,

the kind of the right high yaw. And I was constantly afraid of when is that miss coming, when is that miss coming. And even though Gigi and I worked with, and Gigi and I worked a decent amount, and I gained distance, I still could feel that big mis-toming at any point. Can I pause on that for just a second?

Just because it, what I, again, I've extremely limited tournament experience, but I feel like it is easy-ish to work on driver stuff on the range on golf courses at home. And then when you get internaments, it is a totally different animal that I don't I personally I don't know how to prepare myself for like the feeling of, okay, there's OB-Wan and Water left, and I don't know if I can trust my golf swing right now. And I don't know what to do in between starts to build up trust in that. Kind of what is that like to go through? That truly is the most frustrating part for me because if you were saw me on Tuesday,

Wednesday on the range, you'd be like, that guy's hitting it perfect, that guy's hitting it totally fine. But then as soon as I would get on the tee on Thursday, you know, so much anxiety and so much of like what if start popping up in your mind. And I thought I had a good mental game, but I realized, yeah, at this point that I certainly didn't have any tools to make sure that those nerves don't turn to anxiety because those are two different things. And going back to the practice in tournament, I would bang balls for hours trying to figure it out,

but it's frustrating because you can't see, start losing trust in your practice. If all this practice aren't leading to any change on internaments, then what's the point of me spending all this time on the range as bane drivers? Because it clearly didn't make much difference in tournament play. And so now, if I think about it, if I kind of wrap my head around it,

for one, as a professional golfer, block practice or hitting golf balls in the range, doesn't do much good for me. And as your skill level increases, it's, you just get, you don't get much out of it. So, nowadays, I do most of my practice time on the golf course you know hitting two ball, West ball, worst ball shots and trying to simulate that tournament feel but you know it's really hard to get any of that. Probably the best way to do it was

to get any of that. Probably the best way to do it was, is to be in money games and play rounds that actually matter to you. But when I was at my absolute deepest holes, I had a hard time reaching out to fellow players and to play or even family friends or any friends because I was in part like a bit ashamed of like, what if they see me hit like a shot so far right and they're

like, what was that? And they don't care. But in my head, that was certainly a tough pill to swallow at the time. And so, you know, that's one of the reasons why I was in a hole for that long, I guess. Yeah. And that's what people that if you don't play in any tournaments, like you, if we went out and played for $500, which is a significant way more than I ever play for when I play golf, but I would honestly not be nervous to do it. And I stood on the first team of our four ball qualifier a couple of weeks ago, four ball.

Like again, not, I have a partner. And I was totally expecting not to be nervous. And I just freaked out. I got total anxiety over it. I totally different feels and yeah, when you just don't have your driver, like your trust that you won't blow it off the planet, turn of a golf has to be, is really, really freaking hard, like really freaking hard. And, you know, you went through it for a long period of time. And I hear you talk about it and I hear, I hear our Max Homa 2018 interview a lot too.

And when you're blowing it off the planet, you know, you don't practice what else. I mean, who cares if you're putting for double? Like why would I be practicing my putting right now? And did you seek Max out at all? Did you ever talk with Max about any of the stuff you were going through? Did you draw any inspiration from how much he had rebounded?

You know, for people that don't know, you guys play college golf together and are good friends. So I'm curious on that. You know, I certainly drew a lot of inspiration from, you know, not only Max winning in 2018 or he's come in the game currently, he's way as you top 10 in the world or something around there, playing on Ryder Cups, making massive pots. But for whatever reason, because I was such good friends with him, it almost was a bit harder for me to reach out to him,

asking like, what did you do and, you know, how did you get out of it? And also because I knew Max, I know Max pretty well, I could kind of figure out like how he might have went about doing it. And, you know, like, for your, like, your guys' interview with Brendan Todd, like I remember, like, listening, trying to figure every second of other guys that are kind of going through what I went through, what Brennan went through, and listening to your guys with interview with Brennan Todd or Ermax, or hopefully, if they listen to this interview, this episode of gaining some type of hint to get them out of the hole where they can at least put the ball on play

or they find something that can get them out of the deep slump. I feel like I hear from guys that, you know, toil around for a while, that one thing they've learned about the process of trying to get out of something is fixating on what you're trying to change instead of trying to change something new every day. Did you, because you get, you know, it takes a certain sample size of learning, you know, this field, does it work? Do I grow off that field five business?

I feel different five days later versus do I change up how I'm doing it? What did you learn about the process of digging out that say it does happen again? You'll know like, all right, here's how I'm going to address this. I think for one, I felt like I kind of know what why I got into the hole in the first place, which I think is a big deal. Like, I found myself playing swing theory a bit too much. Like right after my stint with Gigi. right after my stint with Gigi, or during that stint with Gigi, I got enamored with the boat left wrist and the shut cup face.

And Brooks was winning majors at that time. DJ was playing Austin golf, a little bit later Victor Havelin shows up with the super close cup face. And me being afraid of the rightness, like what's the most logical thing to do at first is to close the cup base. And I got totally enamored with this bow left wrist.

Also, and by the way, I'm not the only guy. There's a lot of tour pros that are messing around with that, even though they haven't grown up playing with that wrist style at all. But so I got enamored with it. And I ended up digging the whole way, way deeper than I ever did mess around with that. And kind of coming back to where it started getting better

when I started seeing Sean Foley, he was like the very first guy that told me like, no, like you, you're hitting it right. Why would you try and hold it off any more? You need to release it way more than you do now. And that was kind of a big aha moment, I would say. And and you know during this whole process everyone had been I'd been seeing a lot of different coaches after Gigi you know your top whoever coaches I had seen a lot and it seemed like a lot of them wanted me to hit the fade because the fade is generally the more accurate shot off the tee.

There's certain other advantages to it. Like if you hit up on it, it actually fits more of a fade. But Sean was the first guy to tell me like, no, if you're afraid of missing it right, you need to work your hands, you need to release it, you need to draw it. That's the best way to get you out of your phone. And I started doing that. And it probably took three or four months for it to feel a bit more comfortable. But once I started figuring out what he wanted me to do, it was much, much better from there. And for the listeners sake, if they don't again, aren't have your all your results from this year, handy, you finished fifth at Puerto Rico this year. You finished seventh at Wells Fargo, T six at Schwab, T five at Wyndham.

And then so far this fall, you've got T18, T41, T23. So you've become, it's a, I mean, extremely competitive year you had. I mean, it's, it's what, what is it like now getting into competition? You know, do you, do your feet, like what do your feels feel like now that you had this swing working for you in the heat of the moment? So it's interesting. I started playing a lot better two years ago, I guess, when I went back down to the corner fairy tour, I think part of it, I built up so much scar tissue during those days. Like, I'm not just all of a sudden going to be like, you know what? I know my swing isn't a much better spot.

I know what I need to do to hit the ball better, but you know, those nerves and that scar tissue still kind of with me and not just me, but you know, if you play professional golf long enough and you've kind of built up scar tissue along the way, you know, you're never, everyone kind of points to like, I just want to be free and play golf. And sometimes it's not just, it's not that easy, unfortunately. And I still feel a decent amount of nerves, not nearly as much as I used to. I remember I wore a hoop band like when that the lowest of lows and you would see just these massive spikes in part level and. And I remember just being so stressed during that time,, it's probably not 100% accurate,

but I was burning like, you know, 1,500, 2,000 calories during a four and a half hour Gulf round because, just because my part rate and stress levels were so high. And I'm sure it's way, way lower now. And I have, now I've been working with a mental coach to where it's not nearly as severe, but it's still certainly feeling zadi once in a while,

still, you know, the nerves are absolutely gonna be there. But I do feel like I have tools in place to where I can get a better handle on it for sure. Did you pull anything from the Brennan Todd interview in particular as funny that you mentioned that because when I'm swinging it poorly, I always go back to my arm tension. Like, try to make my arm tension four out of 10, four out of 10, four out of 10. And I still catch myself falling out of that rhythm.

Did any of that work for you? In hindsight, it did because he, Brendan and I ended up kind of on a pretty similar path in the sense that like, he also was trying to kind of close the club face a little bit at, in the beginning of his swing. And he and I, I think he and I had grown up playing with a pretty neutral to open club face and so were we used to kind of those hands releasing. And I think the work he did with Bradley Hughes is that he actually got it back to opening the club face again. And your point about arm tension,

like if it's really stiff, it's really hard to get that free flowing release and opening up the club in the first place. So in hindsight, like, In hindsight, I realized, oh, yeah, you know, I am much better like Brendan at having a neutral club face and releasing with my hands a lot more. Because so much of the instruction these days is the shut clubface, rotate your body, hit it like Victor Hoffland, whereas, you know, I was more of the old school, traditional kind of neutral to open clubface and use my hands to hit the shot you want.

Well, when you say release, I feel like I still don't know what release the club means. What is it mean? I think I do, but I don't know if I release it or if I don't, what does it mean? So it's a combination of a bunch of different things. Sean also kind of showed me a new way of thinking about release. When I originally thought a release,

I assumed it was all kind of roll my wrists and kind of use the hands to kind of rotate the club face close. And that's definitely a part of it, but also this is going to make certain people maybe mad, but a big part of the release he wanted me to think about and showed me was more of a casting feel at the beginning. Sean hates a lot of lag coming down. It's one thing, if you're Cameron Shaft, and you just have so much speed that the club gets bent so much, but for a guy like me, it was a combination of kind

of a casting, the way I kind of imagine it is, have you ever seen those that training aid where there's a ball kind of in the shaft and as you kind of pick it up, the shaft kind of rolls to the hand and as you kind of swing down, the ball shoots to the club, towards the club. And that's mainly for tempo purposes where you kind of hear the ball get to your hands and then you kind of stop and then you hit it. But for me in my head, it was like, I'm going to, as I take it back, the ball is going to roll to my hand. I'm going to try to, in a, almost casting and with I'm going to shoot this ball to the club head as fast as I can and as early as I can. And for me that popped out a lot because it wasn't, it didn't feel as much timing-based as based as the rotation of the club base. And I could kind of do the casting, do the width with my

ride and left arm as early as I wanted, as hard as I wanted, and it wasn't going to change the club base that much. And it was a new way for me to release it and it helped out a lot. I don't know if I should try that or not. I think I think that sounds like something that should be done with supervision a little bit. Maybe. Yeah, for sure. You and Tweet some stuff. Again, you've tweeted a lot of stuff.

I don't have we're not going to go through all your tweets this year, but about some about swing thoughts. You said you know, something along lines of despite what people with something most or pros do think about their swings while hitting the ball. I'm not going to read the whole thing, but I'm wondering if you could kind of elaborate a little bit on that kind of what you're thinking about when you're on the golf course, left brain, right brain, and if there is kind of anything, how that differs from maybe how you practice. Yeah, you know, for me personally, I was never a visualization person.

I've had definitely tried it in years past, but I was never a visualization person. I've had definitely tried it in years past, but I could never go along with the idea of just visualize the shot you want to hit and kind of go from there. I needed something a bit more internal, a bit having to do with swing thoughts. And I haven't spoken to every tour player, but I'm going to make a guess that most guys have a single swing thought, at least one or two, that they can kind of rely

on during the heat of the battle when you get those nerves going. You have something to focus on. And I felt like I hear especially on Twitter, there's a lot of guys like saying that you shouldn't have, you shouldn't be thinking about anything. Like there's a lot of distraction, mental cues that people like, where you know, try to think of nothing or, or think of your favorite song, how my favorite song during the round.

And those works sometimes temporarily, but from at least for me personally, like I've tried them all, right? During that five year, four or five year stretch, like I feel like I've tried a lot of them. And none of them, any of those distractions type feels never really work for me. And using the swing thoughts in a good way, not, not using swing thoughts, not using them as a

crutch. And you're using them as a tool. You're not guaranteeing anything with a swing thought, but at least you can use it to pursue the shot that you want. And if you can do that, which I think most tor pros do at least one, you can certainly use them to your damage. Yeah, I feel like you can go, you know, all right, this is my one swing thought, and then it becomes all right. Well, I mean, I'm going to do this and this now. I got two swing thoughts. And then before you know it, you end up at like five, and then you go like drop a second ball down back. All right, dude, just hit it the target and you'll strike it right at the target. Right. There's just a fine balance to be struck there. And I think it probably, I'd be surprised if there was even two tour pros that have the same exact

thought on this one. I mean, it's got to be different for every single person in terms of, and probably ebbs and flows throughout different phases of your career as well Just what you're actually thinking about when you go to hit that ball 100% and you know the the language that we use in our heads are Are so different, you know, I could be saying, you know Tempo and it could mean something for me and it could mean totally different for others. So it's so personal and you know what I try to kind of put out on Twitter at least and after going through what I've gone through like golf is so personal. It's so based on how your body works and what you like to do in your swing,

especially what your tendencies are when you get nervous, when you have some anxiety that there certainly isn't a one-size-fits-all involved. You also said some stuff earlier this year about driving distance and how you started gaining more speed and accuracy once you figured out how to decelerate better and not just accelerate. I'm hesitant to ask this question because this one seems like it's going to really put my brain in a pretzel here. But what does that mean? What did you learn about that? I think it kind of goes back to me making sure I'm releasing it properly and making sure my hands are pretty active in releasing it. The palm I had with GG was his thing is all about rotation and then rotation going back and it's great on certain levels but I

had to make sure I was better at the releasing part and getting the club pass my hands. And the best way I could do that for one is that casty motion and thought that I was kind of going with. But also, you see a lot of the ground force stuff where guys are jumping and guys are kind of twisting as well. But any part of the jumping motion helps you get that forced from the hands to the club, whips past it. To be completely honest with you,

that's probably like a social McKenzie question. And it's a concept in my head, which I can't explain like a hundred percent. Okay. Well, so it's a concept in my head that probably might not make sense for a lot of others. Please don't let my questions lead to you blowing it off the plate to get. I don't want to put you back in a pretzel. A couple of words, again, we could go through a bunch of stuff that

you said, but you mentioned some you tweeted some stuff about playing with Phil during the 2020 COVID year and just assuming people have don't remember reading that, take us there. What did you take away from that, Ram? It was super cool. Like Phil grew up in San Diego. I grew up, or most of my life in San Diego. I was at one point more of a Phil guy than a tiger guy just from that San Diego connection. Like I played Phil Mickelson golf tournaments, you know, in San Diego. And I remember the first time meeting, I randomly saw him doing autographs at a Walmart for a back to school type thing. And my dad took me out there, I got a sign hat and it was like the coolest thing I had gotten.

And so I was certainly a Phil fan and to play with him during the COVID year at Torrey Pines, no less, was really cool for me. But that had been my sixth year on tour. And so I've seen kind of the older guys and the veterans and seeing their, how they're passion for golf especially if you're in 50th place, you know, they're not 100% into it and I don't blame them at all. Like, you know, what are you going to gain by trying your absolute chorus, but but Phil was it was completely different. The guy was so into it. There was no one out

there. It was during COVID. There was two people following us. I remember we were walking up 16, I think, and it was a perfect day in San Diego. It was just us, me, Phil, and I'm so sorry, but I forget who the third was in our group. that third was in our group. But, you know, we're walking up 16 and he goes, is this just awesome? We don't have some stupid fan like yelling in your backswing or whatnot. And I go, Phil, this is like how it is every round.

I play on the Fijiator. Maybe that for you. And so it cut out a chuckle about that. But, you know, just how into it, he had his coach within counting for him that week. They were talking about every shot. They're trying to figure any little detail

that could help them for the next whole next week. It was just amazing how much he clearly loved playing and competing in golf. What do you completely different know? And we don't need to do the long-winded version of this conversation, which is a very challenging one for everyone in terms of the distance debate, which again, I don't think we need to necessarily have. But I'm curious as to what you think is going to happen on this front,

not necessarily what side you fall out on and what you think should happen. What do you see things falling out? If you're not up to speed on everything, we're probably going to be hearing something in the coming months, the USGA and RNA on what the final decision is. They had a proposed model local rule that was supported by Augusta National, the USGA and RNA,

but not supported by the PGA championship, not supported by the PGA tour, which seems like to me, I'd be very surprised that they ended up rolling it out exactly like they proposed it, but you're kind of reaction to that and how you see how you predict things will fall out. I, I, I, in the ball rule that the USDA have, it's a local rule. I just don't like the half measures that they're kind of having. It's not we're going to change every ball.

It's there kind of there's like a line where it's just for the ones that want to have it and don't. I'd rather if they're going to roll a bag. I'd rather have them roll it back for everyone, but they're afraid of the backlash that the average golfer, like I can totally see it, right? They miss the club, you know, they thin the heck out of it and it comes up 15 yards short

with their seven iron and they're gonna be like, oh, it's the golf ball. We golf balls going shorter. And I totally get that. But I just think it just makes such a muddy area like where they were to draw that line if they're going to make that change. But you know, it seems like they're pretty,

every time they've announced that they want to make changes, they've certainly gone through with it. And so it probably will change a little bit, but, you know, if it, you know, Rory's going to hit it three, 10 instead of 320, I don't know how much change that actually does. No, I don't know. I disagree with that. I do. I think it, I've heard your argument as well. Like, I do think it benefits the longer guys. the longer guys are going to, you know, it, it's only going to exacerbate driving distance. But, uh, I think it re, it re shapes some thought into golf holes for them, right? If it's driver eight iron instead of driver wedge, that's just a totally different golf course. You, how have, I, I say this a lot and I've, obviously never hit a shell in the PGA tour. Certainly

feels like to me, you've been out there long enough. Feels like to me setups keep getting harder and harder. Pins are farther and farther tucked into corners. I mean, not necessarily the yardage goes back every single year. I feel like courses are mostly kind of maxed out on where they want to lengthen them too, but just seems like it gets harder and harder. Whereas like, all right, if it becomes an eight iron shot for the longest guys in, instead of pitching wedge, that pin can be in a different spot.

And it just changes, you know, it might be subtle. And not a lot of people are going to notice it, but it will change having effect on how these golf holes are played. It's kind of where I'm, is it enough to like totally up into the whole golf ball market and flip up set the apple cart? That's probably a, that's a more complicated question than will it actually be different, you know? Definitely. I remember having this conversation with Charles Halma, Rick, my Ricky year.

There's on the 10th full of Vegas, there's his back right pen. And it's a short hole. It's like a three-wood wedge, but Charles would tell me like they used to never have pins of this severity back when I first started now it's it's it's given that they're putting it back there and so you know there these golf courses that we go to are certainly like maxed out the pin locations are on the rees they're not you barely ever see fives. And that's where we, the T-boxes are, you know, like the T-box on, is it 10 at Pebble? Like the one day moved it way about, like I didn't even know there was, you could even make it there.

Certainly these golf courses are stretched out. I just, the whole, I mean, it's kind of going back to the whole thing. I just struggle I think, I think, I think, I think, I think, I think, I think, I think, I think, I think, I think, I think, I think, I think, I think, I think, I think, I think, I think, I think, I think, I think, I think, I think, I think, I think, I think, I think, I think, I think, I think, I think, I think, I think, I think, I think, I think, I think, I think, I think, I think, I think, I think, I think, I think, I think, I think, I think, I think, I think, I think, I think, I think, I think, I think, I think, I think, I think, I think, I think, I think, I think, I think, I think, I think, I think, I think, I think, I think, I think, I think, I think, I think, I think, I think, I think, I think, I think, I think, I think, I think, I think, I think, I think, I think, I think, I think, I think, I think, I think, I think, I think, I think, I think, I think, I think, I think, I think, I think, I think, I think, I think, I think, I think, I think, I think, I think, I think, I think, I think, I think, I think, I think, I think, I think, I think, I think, I think, I think, I think, I think, I think, I think, I think, I think, I think, I think, I think, I think, I think, I think, I think, I think, I think, I think, I think, I think, I think, I think, I think, I think, I think, I think or I guess that's not even a point, but I'm kind of rambling. But I know it's it's yeah, there's not a clean answer to any of it, right? I mean, there's it's complicated. I, I, we ran a little informal survey on Twitter. And basically, it came up with 14% of our followers, which I think are the biggest golf nerds and junkies out there. 14% agreed with a total rollback for everybody, right? So 86% of people not wanting to roll back for everybody yet.

So like I, I, I, I, I, I listen to you on the Friday as well. Like I don't know if bifurcation's the best. I don't love like the idea of pros playing different equipment, but if 86% of people don't want their ball rollback, then I, I definitely, definitely think something needs to be done at the pro level. Like I you would struggle to convince me otherwise of that at this point, you know, but and I'm also of the belief that if they just rolled it back and didn't tell anyone, which is an unrealistic option, I would say, well, what what percent of amateurs you've played within pro amps would notice a golf ball that is going maybe like four yards shorter

in the air for them. I would guess 90% of players would not tell you that it's no chance. No chance. I'm a golf junkie. You hand me a rollback ball and a regular ball. If I hit drive rough, I probably wouldn't be able to tell you off the bat whether or not I miss hit it or if it, which one actually flew far that much farther, you know, it's just not that different. which one actually flew far that much farther, you know, it's just not that different. I promise you, like, once the new ball comes back or the new ball roll, the new ball comes into play. If it does, you're going to see even pros, like, complain, like, that ball is just different. And it's just, it's, it's, it's, I'm, I take pride in not, like, complaining all the golfers.

I mean, guys complain about every little detail. Like you bring in a brand new golf ball in the first two years, you're gonna hear so many guys complaining about like the golf ball just flew different. It spins different like, and it might, but it also probably didn't, and they're just gonna blame it off. There's just another thing they can blame it on.

Yeah, I mean, the more I talk about the more I feel like they, they may just go ahead and say, roll it back for everybody. And they're going to catch an enormous amount of flak if they do go that route. But I don't know how you, how you change it without having support of the PGA tour and DP World Tour and even PGA championship. You can't have, you can't have US Open British Open and Augusta having a different ball than the other events. That's where you just like, all right, what are we doing here?

I'm sure they'll come up with a compromise that again, it's kind of like the half measure that I personally disagree with, but that's probably what's going to happen. And a golf ball eats all of the blame. And I think the big driver heads are as much to blame, you know, anyways. But let's get you out of here on this. What's your, what TGL team are you going to be pulling for here? What are you going to promise your allegiance to? The L.A. team, I guess.

You don't even know who's on it. I I I on Twitter. I've seen a lot of the Boston common team. I just the names. But the whole thing is just kind of funny to me like. I saw the Atlanta team roster and it's just like cool man. We just put four guys in there that has nothing to do with Atlanta or anything like that. But you have to answer your question.

I'm a Southern California guy. I call on the LA team and the good friend. So I assume I will root for the LA team if I end up rooting for a team. All right, you are on the bandwagon from the, no one can consider you a bandwagon fan if you're on it from the jump. So, well, I'm glad we finally got to do this. I speak for the rest of the golf media and Twitter world to say we greatly enjoy following

you out there and enjoy all the nuggets you put out there. I think, I love the stuff of even just how, how a week works after you miss a cut and all the stuff you get into with hotels Now that if you're not already following Michael Kim on Twitter, please do that because he's bringing the heat every single week And we thank you for sending over emergency pin positions while we're in the middle of live shows as well. That's very very clutch I could not believe that you guys were like looking for pin locations and talking I was like you guys are the biggest golfers ever seen and and for people to be waiting on the location, that was that that was a new one, but we I just happened to be with gay we get texts from

the tournament and so I sent the filmers kind of funny to me. Exclusive source. So well thanks again for your time man. Best of luck into the new year and I'm sure people will be falling closely. And we greatly appreciate it. Take care. Thanks, I. It's a great club. Be the right club today.

Yes. Yes. Be the right club. That's better than most. How about in? That is better than most. Better than most. Better than most.