No Laying Up - Golf Podcast - NLU Podcast, Episode 768: Lee Trevino

Episode Date: November 30, 2023

On the eve of his 84th birthday we are honored to welcome Lee Trevino to the pod for the first time. Over the course of two hours we cover Lee's unlikely story of overcoming poverty and hardship in his youth, his introduction to the game, military service in the Marine Corps, money game matches and introduction to the pro tour, winning majors, competing against Nicklaus, Palmer and Player and a ton more. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

I'm going to be the right club today. Yes. That is better than most. I'm not in. That is better than most. Better than most. Number one, number two on the wish list for ever since we started doing this. Travel to Dallas for this here at Marado and had an absolute blast as you might imagine talking to him about his career. We left a lot of stuff on the table, but listen, he gave us two hours of his time, which we are forever indebted to.

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rowback. Donny, further delay. Here is lead Trevino. Everyone I talked to, when I told them I was coming to talk to you said this would be the easiest interview I've ever done. I'm sure I'm sure you've heard that one before, huh? Well, I'll tell you what, I'm a week away from 84. And when you talk about golf and you talk about what I've achieved, my memory's pretty good. Other than that, you know, I don't...

If it's not important, I don't remember it. You understand that, that's the way I work. I've worked that way my whole life. And I think that's one of the reasons that I've been successful is because I'm loose. I'm loose as a goose. Gary Players, loose as a goose. He's 88 years old and he still can hit the ball pretty good.

Anyways, good to see you. Thank you so much for your time. But thank you. I'm wondering, I mean, every clip I've ever seen of you, every round of golf, every interaction you've ever had, I ran into you once. You would never remember this at the Green Briar, maybe four years ago or so.

You're on, right? Do you have to pump yourself up when you leave the house? Do you have to pump yourself up to go, be ready to be lead driven, I'm not going to see you. No, I can't wait to talk to somebody. I mean, that's the whole thing. I like people. You know, I like to tell stories and I like to I'm a history buff. I learn a lot. You know from it. I have an old saying that I tell people every day, I says that I have a difficult time sleeping at night

because I can't wait to get up in the morning just to hear what I have to say. I mean, I don't know what's coming out of the smell. My wife keeps telling me, she says, you know, they've got these cell phones now and everybody's got a recorder. Watch what you say. And I can't tell you what I say back to her,

but I don't say much back to her, you know. But yeah, I'm on. I'm fired up. That's why when I leave the golf course, I don't go out at night. I don't feel like entertaining and talking to anybody afterwards. I've already talked for 10 straight hours

to the different people, which is fine. And when I go home, I go to bed early. I mean, I still, to this day, go to bed at 8.30. Yeah. Which is wow. I just finished your book. They call me Super Max, which is, we just learned as 40 years old now, you're autobiography.

I think you need to write another one for the second half. Yeah, you know, I was talking to Jaime about it, and we look like we may work on something, you know, the second stage, you know. I was going to say in the book, it doesn't, you did not go to bed early very often. In the early phase of your life. Well, I can't. I almost said something.

No, you're right. Yeah. I struggled a picture of this scene so much that you talk about in there about finishing rounds of golf, professional golf events at majors, you know, going around in Southport during the 1971 Open Championship that you won. Those nights that you give us an idea of what was that week like just 1970, well, where you're hanging out and what you're doing. Yeah, well, I'm hanging out at the Prince Wales Hotel, which is right across the street from

the Kingsway Casino. I'm not a wine drinker. I like beer. I haven't had a drink in 32 years now, 31 years. But I wasn't a wine drinker. And Jimmy Dean, the movie actor and the sausage guy, he came to watch me defend my title or to play because I just won the US Open and I had won the Canadian Open

and now I was playing Berkdale for the third leg there. And Jimmy Dean was sleeping on a bench out there because he wanted to go out there six foot six, big old guy. We see the casino across the street. Now you have to understand that if you're leading or close to the lead in the open championship, you're not gonna play to the lead in the open championship, you're not going to play.

That tournament ended on Saturday simply because at that time they didn't play on Sundays in Scotland or in England. They're either open. So we kind of buttied up and he was shooting a movie there, Diamonds or Forever with Sean Connery. And then he says to me, he said, let's go over the casino. I said, okay, I'm not a gambler, but I went over there.

And the tea times generally, when you're close to the lead is usually around three, we were teeing off at 3.45 on Saturday. Now this was a Friday night. And so he and I go over there, and I got introduced to the owner of the Kingsway casino and I went and wrote a check for a thousand dollars to get some money to pounds to But I don't know what we were gonna bet on and he says to me he says you don't want to do that and the owners tell him And I said I don't want to do that. He said no. He says you can't win

And he was right because they took the tie there. And that casino, and that's a big, that's a big odd there is. I'm just gonna go to the odd thing. So I said, well, what are we gonna do? And the guy, and the owner says, listen, what are you just, get here, take a glass of wine and walk around with me and say hello to people.

I said, okay. So, so we sat there until two o'clock in the morning and almost three o'clock in the morning, almost three o'clock in the morning. I was drinking wine and... Leading the Open Championship. Yeah, I was leading the Open Championship and I got up the next morning about 8.30. I mean about 1.30. I slept till 1.30, which was good. The worst thing in the world you can do in an Open Championship is when you tee off at three o'clock and then you wake up early in the morning,

now what the heck do you do? You know, so, yeah, I went out there and, I boarded five of the first six holes. Ha, ha, ha, playing with Mr. Liu in that one. Playing with Mr. Liu, he was my best friend. Now I tell you, I know Mr. Liu from Taiwan, we played tam sui country club in a match one time. He beat me, he beat me 10 and 8.

He beat me 10 and 8. I was in the Marine Corps and he was in the Air Force there in Taiwan. And we were playing an inter-service match and five Marines went over there to play them. And Mr. Liu beat me 10 and 8. I'll never forget it. And then he came over to Okinawa and I beat him there at a washy matter. And then he came over to Okinawa and I beat him there at a washy matter. And then we saw each other back and forth when we were playing internationally and the Japan and stuff.

And then, yeah, we tangled together. He was a hell of a player, but the problem is, he was a small man, didn't weigh much. He played the small ball, which is a 1.62. That ball went a long way. That's what I was playing also. And when they converted over to the big ball in 1974, Mr. Luz Carrillo was over. He couldn't compete because he couldn't hit it far enough. He got a bad break there on that 18th hole of that one. The lie he found. The lie he found. Ball above his feet. He's almost standing in a bunker.

Yeah, and it would have, yeah, because he could still eagle the hole. He understand and me birdie it and we're going to play off. He hit it and he couldn't, he couldn't stand outside the bunker. I mean, that was absolutely unbelievable. What happened there? Because he is down, I mean the ball is almost to his buckle and he took a wood out which you should do in that line and he whifted. He actually, the club actually went over the ball and the ball hit in the heel and it almost hit him and the ball went in the heel, and it almost hit him. And the ball went over his left shoulder and hit a lady right in the forehead. And I mean, I said, oh my.

And I hit six iron in there to the back of the green. And two putted from there. He made about an eight footer for birdie. And then I put my ball down. The television almost missed that three footer because I put it so fast. You know, I put it so fast. I put the, I put that up.

Why is that? I just did that because I take the putter, I was taking the putter back before my eyes got back to the ball. See, I would look at the whole forward press and as my head was moving back to the ball, the putter was gone. See, most people get the yips and can't take the putter backs because they stare at the putter. And they're staying at those lines in the putter.

I hate putters with lines and they stare at the putter. And then they can't get it back. So what I did was I taught myself to look at the hole and as I'm looking at the hole in my head was connected to the putter head. And when my head came back to the ball The putter was already gone and that's why I was so quick with it What is it the 1974 PGA where you put it out? Maybe I was it out of turn you did you wanted it you didn't want to sit and wait for the final put to win by one

And you just put it in putter. Let me take something. I was choking so bad That I had so much cotton in my mouth. I could have knitted a sweater I'm gonna take it. I could have gotten that bunker and made you a beautiful sweater with all the cotton I had in my mouth. And I was playing with Jack. But you know, Jack actually gave me a break there because I three putted 17. I had a two shot lead.

I'll never forget this as long as I lived. And I'm standing on the team and I'll hit this driver all day with a faith and faith in it. And then that 17th hole was a dog leg lift. And the greens were terrible. They didn't hardly have any grass on the greens. You could see the footprints everywhere. It's a tangled wood part. Yeah, yeah.

And they had a bad summer with the grass. And then they had a lot of rain. And I mean, it was my... Actually, the ball was sticking on the green there was no bounce when you hit a wedge in it it would stick in the green and you know but anyway we get to 18 we get to 17 and I team my ball up and I hit a draw around you don't hit draw no and that's what happened Nicholas looked at me and he's well he held it that come from I said what what he said you're at me and he said, where the hell did that come from? I said, what, what?

He said, you're drawing the ball? I said, oh yeah, I can draw the ball. I just don't like to. I said, I don't like to draw. And he said, my, my, he is a three wood down there next to me. We both hit it on the green and I had about a 35 footer and I left it short and a little right and I missed it. I missed about a three and a half footer and I left it short and a little right and I missed it. I missed about a three and a half footer there and now we have a one shot lead going to 18. And so

we get up to 18 and I hit a driver and I busted it right down the middle of fairway and Jack hit first because I had bogus 17 and Jack didn't hit driver. He had three with but you, that was his plan. That was where his strength was. Jack would make a plan when he got to a major championship. And he wouldn't go off of it. And he says, this is a three wood hole, and then we're going in from there.

And he hit three wood. And then he hits the second shot about 15 20 feet right of the hole. Hubert Green was I think a little bit left and I hit mine a little long. I hit my six iron a little bit long and I had about a 30 footer downhill and I left it about two feet short and I walked down there and Nicholas started looking at his line and I looked over at Jack and I said, listen, I said, if you guys don't mind, can I finish? Because it's customary if you're going to win a golf tournament.

You mark your ball. You understand? But this wasn't a guarantee I was going to win this tournament. You know, because if Jack makes that, makes that birdie, now the heat is really on me. In other words, to make that two footer or now, I lose the turn of mature. And so, and Jack didn't say word.

He kind of closed his mouth and with his eyes and he just nodded his head. Yes, yes, go ahead. And I made it. And I made the putt. And then Jack missed his and I ended up winning. But I believe at least in your book you say you told him out, he's like, I'm choking, I made the pot and then Jack missed his and I ended up winning. But, Well, I believe at least in your book, you say, you told him out, he's like,

I'm choking, you use that choking line, right? I told him, I told him, I said, listen, if you don't let me put this thing, I'm choking so bad, I said, I'm gonna faint. I guarantee I'm gonna hit the ground. I'm gonna hit the ground and he just kinda closes his eyes with a little grin and he shook and he says, go ahead.

Well, come on, I just three putt at 17. I mean, it's would have been disastrous. You finish with a three putt, three putt. Come on, yeah, that's it. It always seemed like Nicholas had a special affection for you. I mean, you got his number. You had his number. I mean, you beat, when you guys were in the hunt together in majors, you beat him more than he beat you, that's for you. I mean, you got his number. You had his number. I mean, you beat, when you guys were in the hunt together in majors,

you beat him more than he beat you, that's for sure. But he seemed to have utmost respect for you in your game, that's for sure. Yeah, you know, the one thing, the one thing that he respected, I think with me is how much I worked because he worked hard too. You know, people don't know how hard he worked. He's over there at Lost Tree in the back,

over there, again against those bushes. Nobody ever saw him practice. It is private thing out there. He had two putting greens at his house, and one was Bermuda, and one was Ben. So he knew when he was going, which one to practice on. I think the respect that he had with me is where I came from,

and how I got there. Because he came up, in other words, in a white collar world, and he never flaunted it or anything else. But he came up, you know, with a country club, yeah, country club, junior golf, and the whole thing. And so, and I didn't start really playing until I was about 22 years old, really. But I think that the thing that he told people a lot of times, he says, one of the reasons that I lost to him and couldn't overtake him, he says is because he wouldn't give you anything back. And that's one of the things that Jack told me once. He said, he'd look at a board at a US open

and he'd shoot 70-71. Somebody is always gonna shoot 65. And he'd look at me and he says, they'll be back. They'll come back. Don't worry about it. He says, they'll come back. And that's the one thing that he said about me.

He said, the thing about Trevino is he's not gonna give you anything back. He says, if you beat him and he's in the hunt, he says, you're going to have to, you're going to have to birdie. He says to overtake him. I hit the ball so straight. See, I didn't hit it far because I was a holder.

And Zach Johnson plays the way that I play. And I hit a cut. Now, Jack hit a cut also, but he had a release cut. He could release this club and still cut it. That's why he hit it so far. I mean, Jack had hit it 300 yards with that ol' equipment when we played. Little different skill test to do it.

Yeah, but that was the advantage. There was an advantage. The big advantage that Jack had on me had two. One, he could hit it farther than me. And two, he could output me, but I was better with a wedge. And you understand what I'm saying. And if you really statistically look at the rules, the way that the golfist played

today is there's probably four greens missed from the field. You'll miss four greens if you average it out, okay? Now, who gets it up and down most of the time, okay? The guy that can save par is going to win. It's just the way it is. When you miss a green, you got to get it up. You got to get it up and down because you're, if you make bogey, you're giving a par five away. And that's where you... If you look at par fours and par threes, they average out. You win with the par fives. That's where you win.

Eagles and birdies. You got to keep them though. In order to keep them, you have to have a hell of a short game. So you would light up when there be less par fives, right? Marion had two par fives. You love that. But yet Burkdale had five par fives, but you could reach those. I could reach a mobile one.

And because of the small ball. Yeah. And I had played the Alcan Gaufer the year there one time, one year, and we played there. And I knew, see, that was the only Dauff course that I was familiar with in Britain, when I went there to play. I wasn't familiar with any of the other golf courses, and that was where I went. And I said, well, I know Burkdale's got five parfives. I can't familiar with any of the other golf courses, and that was where I went. And I said, well, I know Burt Delt's got five, four, five, I can't wait to play. Because I mean, if you get a short hitter, and he hits a four, five, I mean,

that's Christmas for him. I mean, he's really excited about that, but I could reach all of them, but one. And Jack couldn't reach the other one either. So which hole was that then that was unreached? 15? 15, okay. I think it was 15. Yeah, which hole was that then that was unreached? 15. 15, okay. I think it was 15.

Yeah, because of 15, 17 and 18 were part five. Oh, that was long, that one. Yeah. Uh-huh. It's funny, I, uh, preparing for these interviews, I got to do one with Tony Jacqueline about two years ago. Oh, my buddy. So, my buddy.

It's funny when I'm, you know, research in the 1972 open, I'm cursing you, because I'm, I'm getting ready to interview Tony, and I'm, oh, this lucky Triv 1972 open, I'm cursing you, and I'm getting ready to interview Tony, and I'm like, oh, this lucky Trevino guy, chips in all over the place. Because I was so excited, now I'm preparing for this one, I'm like, all right, go leak, go, go, go, if you're chipping in,

hold it from every, that one broke him. I mean, that was, he did not recover from, you know, and get away. You know what happened is that really, I gotta explain this to you, that we were playing Mirfield, We were all in the hunt. And he and I were five and six shots ahead of Jack. Jack was third going for the third leg of the slam. And so Tony and I tee off. When we teed off on number nine, Nicholas had caught us. He caught us. And Tony's looking at me and I'm looking at him.

And number nine at Murphiel is a very short part five with a wall on the left side. I mean the wall is close to that green all the way down. They got a brick wall or a rock wall. He and I drove it down the fairway, both of us. We both hit five iron on the green, and we both made the putt, we eagled it, to take the lead again. And we go around, and you know, you talk about me chipping in and everything. Jack lost that tournament.

We didn't win it. We just happened to have been there. Because Jack bogged 16, which was a nothing part three. It was a seven iron eight iron. And he didn't birdy 17, which he can hit a nine to. And that's where he lost it, you understand. But as far as the chip ends are concerned, I chipped in five times at the,

when I, what are all that so many? Yeah, I chipped in five times for the week. But the thing, I was using an old wedge. I was using a wedge from 1937. What? Yeah. 40-year-old wedge? Yeah.

It was a Helen Hicks. It was a ladies wedge. It was an R90 Helen Hicks, and it had dimples. It didn't have lines on it. And dimples are illegal to tell you the truth, but they can't measure them. And of course, you're supposed to have a three to one ratio between the lines. Well, I took it to the R& the RNA and I said, check this. It says, we know where we can check it. I said, well, it's so, but, but the thing about

it was when, when, when I shipped in on 17, I tell people to look at the film of the BBC film, I went to the tea to T off. I put my ball down and I took a waggle and the cameraman and the tripod walked in front of the T to get position. So I had to move back and I stopped right in there. You know, it's interrupted from hitting the shot. So I walked and made a circle. Put the T back down, Ted it up again, just like routine. Got up to hit again. As I took a waggle, the guy with a tripod walked in front of me twice.

Now, I got interrupted twice. So now, now, you know, I'm sharp-used and my chili is a little hot. You could put me in a taco. I'm telling you. And so, so all of a sudden, I pulled it. I put it in a taco, I'm telling you. And so, so all of a sudden, I pulled it, I put it in a bunker, I had to go backwards out of the bunker. Then I hit a two wood to the left in the opening because it's all guarded 17 in the front.

Tony and I are both in the same position. I chipped first and I chipped it over the green, and well, I'm half-pladed, it's what I did. And it went over the green. Because I'm still angry. I'm still steaming. Tony chipped it and hits it. I don't know if he hit it fat or what,

but he didn't hit it hard enough. Let's put it that way. And he leaves it about 25 feet short. But he lies three, puttin' for birdie. He lies three and he's out. And he says, oh, I said, don't worry about, go bring it up. He knows I'm mad.

And I'm hot and will you now walk across the green? He says, so I'm standing there. He says, go ahead and finish if you want. Don't worry about it. I said, oh, thanks. I will over there, pull that out and I and I and I dropped it on the ball and went in. It shook him up so bad that he missed the three footer. Three putter from

the... Yes. And then I ended up... I ended up with the lead going to 18 and I hit a date, I ended up 18, about, you know, about eight feet, nine feet. They said... They said that I don't know if it's true or not, and never asked Jack this. But a guy told me that he was in the locker room and Jack was in the locker room. There was a TV in there and he said that one of the members says, Trevinas in the fairway, he said, he hit it past the bunkers because I said, and I small ball, they had two bunkers on each side on 18. And I took a nader and out and I was fixing to hit the ball and and Jack's looking up and and the guy says

You're not gonna go out there to see what he does. He said no, he says I can see right here and he says he said the Jack was looking at the screen and watch my swing Now I did I never asked him this and he says he watched my swing And he said before even the ball came down on the green, he reached down and started unleashing his shoes. All I need to see was the swing. He said, all I had to do. And that's what he said, he told the guy.

He said, I don't need to go see him. He said, I watched that swing. He said, that's all I can tell. Because they could tell the way I came through it. You mentioned Jack preparing for major championships and you read about this as well to say. He was the one that, the first one to start charting golf courses to start understanding the yard business.

So how did that work before he did that? I mean, did you, were there sprinkler heads with the arches at all? No. You were totally eye testing to figure out how far away. How did you know your distances back then? There were trees on the right side of the fairway. There was a hundred yard bush, a hundred and fifty yard bush, and a two hundred yard bush. How did you know your distances back then? There were trees on the right side of the fairway. There was a hundred yard bush, 150 yard bush,

and a 200 yard bush. Even in majors and everywhere. Every golf course had it. I mean, if you go today to Wingfoot and a member will tell you, he says, you see that tree there? Yeah, he says 147 from here. Yeah, that's how you did it. That's how they did it.

They had no sprinkling system. The sprinkling system then was a riser. Remember you put it in and you turn it on. No, they didn't have any plates in the middle of the fairway or nothing. They had bushes on the right side and and Eric off course had them. You know, you just looked over there again. You could go way, way back to the unlikelihood that is your career. But tell us about your first US Open, you played in 1967. Do I have that right? 66. 66 US Open, the first one you ever played in.

Right, I qualified in Odessa. How'd you get signed up for that though? Well, it was 20 bucks. And I was, you know, playing pretty good. Guys, talk me into it because I was beating everybody. I mean, everybody I played with, I beat. I mean, I played tennis in park. We played every day.

I'd played with pros, I'd play with anybody. I mean, they'd even bring people in that I don't even know. One guy came in from New York, ran right over him. I mean, he was the hell of a swing, too, he had. And he was a pro, P.J. pro, and he was from New York, and he came down, and yeah, we'll play. I mean, Marty Stanovich, I played with him as a partner there at one time. When they played the big money games and he actually came and recruited me at the driving

range. I'll never forget it. He looked over at the counter and they called him the fat man. And he said, Nairn, he had a lot of gab. I liked it talking to him. And I knew he was a golfer. And he says to me, he says says I hear you play a little bit I said I do he said you play at innocent park. He said yeah

He said that's where all the big games are I said yeah, he said yeah, he said I'm playing out there next week. I said you are I said yeah, he said you know the course well. I said yeah, I said I probably have a plus six there He said a plus six. I said, oh yeah, I said, I very seldom ever shoot over 65, you know, 66 on the court. And he said, well, I need a partner. I said, I don't have that kind of money. He said, no, no, you just need to play. I said, okay.

So I was his partner and we did pretty good. But that was the thing, you know, I played a lot of different people and I beat them. So all of a sudden they said to me, you've got to qualify for the open. I said, how do you do that? As easy to give your thing, fill it out, send your $20 in. But didn't your wife sign you up for it? Unbeknownst to you?

Yeah. The first one. My wife says to me, she says, why don't you play? Why don't you try it? Unbeknownst to you? Yeah. The second, the first one. The first one. My wife, my wife says to me, she says, why don't you play? Why don't you try it? I said, are you kidding me? That rough is high. I'm not not gonna play rough. We don't, we never played rough. We didn't know anything about it because public courses are all mowed down so you can play fast. So yeah, signed me up. So I went and the who do I end up going San Francisco Olympic. Oh my god, that rough was a foot hat. I mean, Arnie had a what?

A seven shot lead or something going to the back nine and he lost it. And then he did the same thing in the playoff, you know, with the Casper. So yeah, I went up there. I finished 54th. Reason would be my buddy shot 64 that first round. I played a lot of golf with him and finished 54th 56 second T 54. Yeah, but I never played again. I didn't I didn't play anything else. I just kind of back to back to the driving

range back to doing what I know what I have to do and picking up range balls and doing whatever. And then I qualified again in 67. And right here in in Dallas, the Dallas athletic club, I got the fourth spot. And we go to Boulder Straw. And so friend of mine, which was the pro at Cedar Crest, Dennis Lavender, which was the pro at Cedar Crest, Dennis Lavender, which was a disciple of Ben Hogan, they all played a lot of golf together back in the 40s. He takes me in the back of his shop, and he says, Karanza, I don't know why he called me Karanza,

I figured it out the other day. Karanza, I gotta go back here and fix you a putter. He said, that putter that you have is too heavy for the greens that you're gonna go play. You're not familiar with the East. I said, yes sir. He said, I want you to take this putter. So he fixed me a 38-52 Tommy Armor reverse A blade.

And I'd never put it with a blade. I was puttin' with a mallet head the whole time. And I went up there and I ended up winning the golf tournament, you know. And I stayed with a family there, the Kerture family. He had six kids, no air conditioning. It was the greatest experience I've ever had. I enjoyed that so much with those kids.

It was still friends. And I remember Susan, which is a big lawyer now out there, when she was two years old, we were outside looking for a four leaf clover and we found one. And I put it in my back pocket. And I will put it in that back pocket every day when we played. But I qualified for it. And by winning that open, 67 a ball this is all though. This is the fifth place finish, right?

Oh, that's the fifth place. Yes, that's right. Yes. So I finished fifth in the tournament and I came back home and went to work. $6,000. Didn't you go straight to Cleveland though? Right to Cleveland.

You made it right. You're exactly right. $6,000 check, but money hadn't hit you. I couldn't cash it. You didn't have the interesting money. I was trying to cash it. So I went $6,000, right? So because of that, I got an invitation

to play in the Cleveland Open, which was at Aurora Country Club. And so I went down there, and I really didn't want to play. I wanted to go home and party and it'll pass so because I had $6,000. I mean, come on. And so I'm coming up the 9th Fairway. I'll never forget that. And you're looking at that book there. And I'm coming up the 9th Fairway and there's some signs behind the green. And the signs are on cardboard and they're saying go get them super max and it gave me an idea and I copyrighted the name and super max. I've had it copyrighted since

1967 but anyway by winning there by finishing fifth there sorry by finishing fifth there I ended up getting some invitations to go and play other tournaments. So I went to Minneapolis St. Paul and I qualified at Hazelteam to play one tournament there. But I was already exempt to go to the Canadian Open, New York, Hartford invited me. Well, tell that story about Monday qualifying at Hazel team. Well, I mean, you have to understand that the PGA owned the tour at the time. And by the PGA owning the tour at the time, if you had a PGA card, which I had one, and you played an internament and you made the cut, you were automatically in the next tournament if you wanted to play. So by getting an invitation to go to the Western Open

in Chicago, I went a week early. And I said, let's go practice. And I took my wife, my daughter, Leslie, was I think about four years old. And I said, let's go. Minneapolis St. Paul will qualify. Nothing around Hazelting. I mean, it was just a pasture.

It was a farm. And they built this, of course. So you parked right across the road. You parked right next to the clubhouse in the field. There was no concrete, no black top, no nothing. You just parked there. So Monday, calling the rabbits. So we went out there to qualify.

I teed off about eight o'clock in the morning and I shot 78. Now, you shoot 78. You're not gonna make qualifying. Come on, that's not gonna happen. So I'm packing my car up. And Wade Cagle was one of the greatest guys that we had. He was a rules official.

And he called me Pinto Bean. Now today, I mean, people were frown on that. But we know, I mean, come on, it didn't mean anything. So he called me Pinto Bean. Now today, I mean, people are frown on that. But we don't, I mean, come on, it doesn't mean anything. So he called me Pinto Bean. So I'm packing the car up to leave shooting the 78. He says, Pinto Bean, he says, where are you going? I said, man, I, I didn't, there's no way I can qualify. I said, I'm going, I'm going to Chicago.

I'm in that tournament. He said, what'd you shoot? I shot 78. He said, hell, you're leading. I See what he said you might be leading and you know, Hazel teen was a brutal God we'd never seen anything like that and Dave Hill remember he said it's Dave Hill the late Dave Hill he was my buddy. He said man, they ruined a hell of a farm out here but anyway, I ended up making the cut there. When Chicago made the cut, make a long story short.

I kept going. Every cut I made, I ended up playing 13 straight tournaments. Made the cut in every tournament. Hawaii was my last one. I was voted rookie of the year. I won $33,000 for the year. That's what I won. And which was a lot of money to make? Well, yeah. I mean, if we could take this moment to go back and bid and learn a little bit about your background and grow up and how you got into golf and where you grew up. And I got to admit, I think I was when I was starting reading the book, I was mad in my house because our dishwasher started leaking.

I got a little upset about that, right? And I pick up your book and I read about your childhood and where you grew up and I went over, I think I kissed the dishwasher after that and was thankful I had a dishwasher, right? So paid the picture for us. I can remember sleeping and living under a tree at the age of three on a farm.

And the reason for that is because mom and my granddad were working on a farm in Raleigh, Texas. And it was too far to walk home. By the time you picked cotton till dark, by the time they had their four miles away, they got no transportation. By the time they walk home, and they got to turn around and walk back. So we were just staying under the tree, you know, doing that, I can remember that like yesterday,

and no question about it. And I went on from there, and then, and when I was six years old about that, we moved to a small house, and it was a chaircropper's house in the middle of a field, a pasture, and Dallas, North Dallas. It was north of the cemetery. My granddad got a job dig in graves at this cemetery. Maybe one of the reasons that I'm as tough as I am

is I used to go up there at night and water and water the plants and the bushes until midnight. Now when you're six years old and you walk in around those tombstones, you know, and you can hear your footprints, you can hear your feet hitting the ground, you think somebody's behind you. You learn to get a little tougher, you understand. But there was a golf course next to that house. And so, and and so we we were watching these people hit back and forth, and they would hit the balls out of bounds and stuff, and then at night we'd go up in the field and look for golf balls we'd find them selling back to the members. But I never started playing until I got older. I dabbled with it a little bit. We started carrying it at a young age and never got through school very far simply because we had to walk four miles back and forth because we were out there

in the middle of a pasture. And so, you know, so what we did is when I was about 14 years old, that was it for me. It dropped out, started caddy and my uncle caddy there. I knew some guys that I caded for every Saturday and Sunday. It actually got us through because I made more money doing that than anything else. What was the Cady fee back then? 90 cents for 18 holes.

Usually got a dollar and a quarter, but you could buy groceries for a week. I mean, it was crazy. Oh yeah, you know, I mean, a half a loaf of bread was 15 cents. I mean, I mean, you need to see it now. But anyway, so that was it. And then I wasn't any different than anybody else. I caddyed there. Then I got a job there. And I worked on the golf course. But we didn't play. But we were familiar with it. We could

see people swinging. We'd get a club with we'd swing it, we'd do this, do that. Never played any golf. I mean, couldn't afford it. Couldn't afford to go and play golf. Couldn't afford the clubs. Couldn't afford anything else. But and then I ended up, you know, when I was a little late 16, the start messing around with the guys, you know, and you're getting trouble.

And even though if you're not doing it, they're doing it, you're part of it. And finally, you know, they got us. We're out in trouble to tell you the truth when the first time I was running with this kid. And I had a 049 Ford, blue 49 Ford. And we were drag racing with it. And didn't have any hubcaps on the car,

because you're not allowed hubcaps when you're drag racing. So we're working at this little golf course in Irving, Texas called Know Wood. And he was caddy and out there, and I'm working in the concession stand inside 16 and a half almost 17 years old And all of a sudden and got parks next to me with a spoke He's got some spoke up caps on his car and they fit my 49 Ford perfect

You know where this is going and so So he takes them, he goes out there and pops them off that car and puts them on my car. And then we, we head home. And by the time we get home, I guess the guy had finished playing and coming, we're gone, but he sees these things going.

So he reports it. And then motorcycle police went on Northwest highways, we were coming home, you know, stopped us. And he says, where did you get those hubcaps? I said, which hubcaps? He said, the ones you got on that car. And I'm saying, he said, listen, don't even say anything.

He says, I know where you got them. He says, I got the man's address. And he says, I want you to take those hubcaps off, put them in the trunk of that car and I want you to drive those hubcaps to that man's house, I want you to take those four hubcaps, ring his doorbell and give them to it and I will be waiting for you down the street. and give them to it. And I will be waiting for you down the street. And I did. And I'm crying and I'm nervous.

I don't know what the hell to say. And give them back to hook-ups. That was the last thing I ever took that didn't belong to me. I sort of got to you. And you didn't get fired from that. I nobody ever knew about it. But what happened was the police officer said to me, he says, how old are you?

I said, I'm 16. He said, when are you going to be 17? I said, December 1. He said, I need you to talk to somebody. I said, OK. So he took me down to the Marine Corps recruitment. And he took me down there. And the guy, I was stout.

I mean, I've been working my whole life. So he looked at me and he said me down there and the guy I was I was stout. I mean I've been working my whole life. So he looked at me and he said yeah. So he sent me down and was about 15 of us. We took the little exam. Three days four days later they put me on a plane to San Diego. After the Marines. After the Marine Corps. Yeah. And um... Your machine gun specials? Yeah, it was a 0331. I was a machine gun, a 30 caliber.

Yeah, I spent four years in the Pacific. Yeah. And how did that lead to golf? Well, I was dabbling with it and everything else. And then when I went in the Marine Corps, you know, they had a range out there and I was hitting it. And then all of a sudden, they said to me, range out there and I was hitting it. And then all of a sudden, they said to me, I was fixing to go into Recon and Recon of some, you know, it's like the Rangers and stuff. And I was going to go into Recon and they messed my orders up. And like I said, I didn't play much and they messed my orders up. I knew about golf, I knew how to play it, but I never got a chance to play a lot.

Not how good I was. So what happened was they messed up my orders. And we were in Sukuran in Okinawa. We had just gone from Middle-Tam Fuji and Japan to Okinawa. And my orders were messed up. I was supposed to go to different training. And all of a sudden, the captain, I called for office hours

and I go in to see the captain and I said, you know, my, they messed up my orders. I said, I'm not supposed to be here. I said, I supposed to be a recon. And he says, oh man, he said, how did they do that? He says, I gotta do all this paperwork. He says, let me ask you something. He said, you man, he said, how the hell did they do that? He said, I gotta do all this paperwork. He said, let me ask you something. He said, you play a sport.

I said, I can play golf. He said, hold on, he just stand right there. He picks up the phone and he picks up, calls the guy name. His name was Bill Irwin. I never forget his name. He was from California and he was the amateur champion in California.

He said, I a kid up here Says he plays golf. He says you need somebody on that team And the guy says yeah, he says we need a guy on that team. He says he said Send him down here, so I go down here and I talked to him I told him when I came up and well I learned the whole thing. He's just good. So he takes me out though. O'ossi matters O'ossacimatos. O'ahuacimatos was a little short course, sand greens. So you rake the sand and make it smooth and then you can put. And in the holes bigger too simply

because it caves in. So the hole is not four inches, it's probably six. And so I go out there and we play two rounds a weekend and I said 78 67 He said yeah, you'll be fine. So I started practicing I've realized that a long time ago if you want to be really good at something you got to practice You can be the greatest player in the world with bad habits. Everybody's got bad habits I had bad habits. I didn't have the greatest swing in the world, but I practiced as much as Mr. Hogan.

That's how Mr. Hogan got there. But anyway, so I go out there and I start practicing. And any place I can hit golf balls out of here, I'd go to a baseball field, I'd go to the pastures, I'd go everywhere. All self-taught. All self-taught, and then it took me about a month and a half, I became the number one player on that team. That's where I met in Orville Moody.

I met Orville Moody in Japan. Yeah, he was the pro there at the base and he ran the golf course. Now, he could really play. We couldn't compete with him. I mean, not at all. I mean, he was like playing a Tiger Woods. Yeah, we couldn't compete with him.

We went to Zama, Camp Zama, that's where he was at. We played a tournament there and he beat us by 18 shots. That's how I finished second, 18 shots back. A quick break here to check in with our friends at Rapsoto. If you wanna make sure that you are not participating in our annual Christmas thread, which is the horrible golf gifts that you get from,

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on the MLM plus premium membership bundle unlocking total savings of 99. 99 don't miss out on this opportunity to elevate your game with Rapsoto and to play without limits. When do things get elevated for you, though? I mean, after the Marine Corps, you go back to Dallas, I believe, and this is when you meet Hardy at the Driving Range, is that right? Yeah, and I went to work at the driving range.

And no, no, I worked at the driving range before that. Before that, before that. Yeah, before that. And, but the thing elevated for me is when I got out of the Marine Corps, after that is when Hardy got into it, but when I got out of the Marine Corps, I didn't go to work for Hardy Greenwood. No, I actually went to work for where you're setting right now. I went to work at this club right here.

It's a Jewish club, it was called the Columbian Club. They had nine holes around this huge lake, I went to work at this club right here. It's a Jewish club. It was called the Kalimian Club. They had nine holds around this huge lake and they were building a new nine. I got out on the Marine Corps birthday of 61. What happens is they're building the new nine here and they need somebody. So I got on and I welded the irrigation here. I helped weld it. I wasn't the welder, but I helped weld the irrigation here on the new nine. That was my first job out of the Marine Corps. Didn't even play. And what happened was one Friday evening after we finished welding all day, I would hit golf balls on the other nine.

On the other golf course, nobody was on it. And I'd play a few holes. We'd play for quarters and 50 cents and whatever. And I was beating these guys out of more money than I was making work. So that drove me to practice and even more. So I was going up the hardies and hitting range balls. And I guess he kept looking at me, hitting these golf balls. So what happened was, I was on that Friday,

I looked at the first fairway, and it hadn't been mowed. And it bothered me simply because our members didn't want to see that. So it was like 6'30 at night. So I went to the maintenance barn, and I hooked up a tractor in the gang, and I m up a tractor in the gang and I Moved that fairway and while I was mowing that fairway this guy was walking across the fairway number one fairway And he comes over and he stops and he leans on the tire and he says

How you doing? I said I'm doing fine sir. He said listen. He said Is this what you're gonna do the rest of your life? and I said I He said, listen, he said, is this what you're going to do the rest of your life? And I said, I don't know, I'm only 21. I said, come on, I'm 21 years old. I've got a little beer, you know, I'm making a few bucks. And he said, no, he says, I've been watching you hit golf balls at my range. And I said, oh, you're, you're heart is range. He said, yeah.

And he said, my name is Greenwood. I said, yes, sir. He said, yeah. And he said, my name is Greenwood. I said, yes, sir. He said, I think you got some potential. And I said, really? I said, well, I said, he said, I'll tell you what you do. He said, I'm going to give you a hundred dollars a week, which I wouldn't make in there. He said, I'm going to give you $100 a week. He said, you come to work at two. You close it in ten. I have a part three course. He says, you alternate, you run the driving range one night at the part three one night. And I said, $100, I work six days a week. And I said, man, that's good. So when I went to tell them here, I was such a great employee when I would

tell them here, they wanted to double my salary. I said, yeah, I'm doing three people's work. You understand? They wanted to double my salary. So I quit and I went there and I started practice. And I mean, I had it all. And I think one of the reasons that I learned to hit the ball so low is because we had a sign.

We had a target 175 yards out, big metal target. And I was always trying to hit it with a driver, you know, low drivers in there. And that's how I learned a whole. And so in the Part Three course, I played it a dozen times a day with different clubs. And then I started beating so many people with just one club that I had to come up with a court bottle and a Dr. Pepper bottle and I taped it and I

threw it in the air and hit it and I could shoot 29 with it with this bottle and I'd take the half a stroke a whole I never lost with it and all the years I played with it. I love that stuff. I've never lost with this bottle. And so I practice until 1965. Like when you say practice, you're talking how many golf balls a day? Over a thousand. If you put a combo on the chipping, I had no bunker. Gary player taught me how to play a bunker shot when I went on tour. I didn't know how to play a bunker shot Tennis and par keys didn't have a bunker. Not on the golf course. It's in a floodplain and

We didn't have a bunker at the driving range So I never got to hit out of sand. I was the worst and in matter of fact, I didn't have a sandwich I had a McGregor 11 hour It was a wedge 11 and it's called enough. You look at it back in 6162, they had an 11 iron. And I loved it. A lot of goose snack, black face. I mean, I could spin that thing. But I didn't have a sandwich.

When I got out in the tour, I said, who's the best, he said, there's two out here. I said, Gary Players, one, cheat you the other. I went to Gary, he was gracious enough to teach me. Back in those days, those guys wouldn't teach other guys because you got to play, you see. I became one of the best bunker players out there because I had to learn, so I practiced a lot, you know.

You loved it though. I mean, just hitting the golf balls. That was, that became your thing. I just loved it. I mean, August and July was my best time because nobody was out there. It was 105, and man, I was pounding those things and it was unbelievable. I was 105 and man I was pounding those things as unbelievable. I was doing it, you know pounding them pounding them. But I entered my first

tournament and my first tournament that I entered was in 65 and I went to Sharpstown in Houston. It was so funny, so funny. I'd never been down there before. Even though, you know, I mean, we don't go anywhere. Where were we going to go? That's why I went in the Marine Corps. So I could see what the other side of the street was like, you know, but you know, you look at Houston. So I got a 55-shovy. Never forget it. Belair had air conditioning, but I wouldn't run it because the traffic was so bad and Houston that it would get heated. So we'd turn it off. And I got my caddy next to me that played out there, or caddy that that tennis and park. So we go to play. And I ended up winning it in a playoff over a friend of mine. And so we come back home. I never forget it. We get a thousand bucks. We stopped with what was a thousand bucks

like to you that time. We couldn't cast the check, but we had 20 bucks. So we got some gas. And we got two RC colors, half a loaf of bread and some baloney. And we ate baloney sandwiches in the drain and we drank RC colas all the way back to Dallas. Here's a black guy in the Mexican in the car. In a 55-sh of me baby, we were headed back to Dallas with a thousand bucks. I don't know where they held, we were going. It's just the way it was. I mean, it's just the way it was. And then I repeated it in sixty-six. And then three years later, you went in the US open. That's because it was the path to, I mean, it wasn't, you didn't necessarily think you were destined to play tour golf, right? I mean, the path to even getting your class A, PGA card at that,

at that point was quite difficult. It took years and years and years just to get that kind of status, right? I think one of my bandages was that I knew zero about what went on with the tour. Today, these kids are seven years old. They know about the majors and Augusta and the USOVA and this. And even when they're practicing, they start getting nervous and pressure. I didn't know one tournament from the other. I just knew that it was gonna let me play.

And I didn't care what the money was like. And I didn't know what the prize money was. I had no idea what first place was. And I didn't care. And I didn't care simply because from the humble beginning that I had, I could live going back to it because I know how. As you see all these homeless people that you see here, they never started out that way. That's why they don't know how to go, where to go or what to do. I would survive, you know, I know what to do,

how to get by. But when you look at golf tournaments, I mean, if I tell you, and you'd say silly, because you'd say, well, he was a caveman under a rock, if I tell you that when I was working at the driving range, I had no clue of who Arnold Palmer was, Jack Nicholas, the Masters, the Tour, the Open Championship in Britain, I had no clue. I had nothing. I just knew how to get to the some part to play four guys for dollar nassau and skins and I was happy.

Yeah, I was happy. We could tell. I never forget I used to play with a guy named Howard Beacon. And we'd go and play different golf courses and we'd gamble. Not much. 50 cents a dollar of sides. I'd win 20 bucks or something. And then as soon as we finish, you know, because it's a pubic not much, 50 cents a dollar of side, stuff you'd win 20 bucks or something. And then as soon as we finish, you know, because it's a pulpy cloist, as soon as you finish,

you know, the beer's too high there, so we'd drive the first 7-11, we'd get a six-back a beer. And we were so good at it, he was so good at it, as he reached in the cooler to get a six-back a beer, and he says, I said, what's the matter? He said, wait a minute, he said, this thing is too light. He said, there's got to be a can missing. And he opens it up and looks in it. No, instead of 12 ounces, there were 10. There were 10 ounce cans. It would

he knew. He could just, oh, he could tell by the way. He said, ah, there's a can missing out of this six-pack. But that's how we lived our life. Well, that's what you've set the seed too when you wrote about going out to the 67 US Open. You had six shirts, three pairs of pants, one pair of shoes. Remember how many golf clubs you had? Yeah, I had 13. 12. 12 clubs because you did not have the wedges. I don't know. I didn't use the wedges. I had an 11 iron. It's the first time you've been east of the Mississippi. You didn't have the wedges. I didn't live in Ireland. It's the first time you bet East of the Mississippi. You didn't have a suit coat,

so you weren't allowed to eat at the club? I had to eat in a Chinese restaurant every night. I walked down Highway 22. Do you know how many people get killed on Highway 22 in New Jersey every day? I mean, this is dangerous. There's no sidewalk, there's no nothing. I'm walking down the side of the road

to the, they wouldn't let me in. And then I came back 25 years later to play in the tournament, stayed in the Union Motel was the name of it. And I stayed in the same hotel and the owner gave me a suede coat. And I looked at him and I said, you could keep that.

I said, I needed it back then. I bought my own now. I said, I own a lot of them right now. I don't wear them, but I got to, I was closet full of them. But no, I did take it and he gave me this white sport coat. But no, you couldn't eat in the restaurant without a jacket. I didn't know that.

I had no clue. Yeah. Hold different scene for this. I gave you one better than that. First time I went to New York, I went there for the 1971, I think it was when I won Athlete of the Year and I won the Hickok Award.

And I'm saying in this high rise hotel and everybody's, I mean, I never seen rush like this. People running everywhere. And when we got down, they had a counter with little swirly seats to eat breakfast. And I said down and I ordered a bunch of stuff, you know, I ordered eggs and bacon and everything. And this is how I found out how slick they were. You know where this is going.

So all of a sudden, I said down, I'm fixed and eat, they bring my breakfast. And I guess this guy's watching me. And as soon as they brought my breakfast and put it in front, he says to me, he says, sir, sir, he says, there's a phone call for you at the front desk. And it's pretty good ways over the front desk. I said, oh, thank you very much. So I get up and I walk over there and when I got back, he'd eat in my breakfast.

That's good. That's what you call surviving. I'm gonna tell you this guy probably can't eat a steak, takes too long to eat a steak, but scrambled eggs and some toast. God. Yeah, he ate my breakfast while I went over there. See, it's a-

It wouldn't know phone call, but like a damn fool, there I go. Well, I mean, what was it like when you got, when you started making money, I mean, you grew up very poor background, and you started making money on the PGA tour. What was that like? What was that changed like?

I love the story you tell about what you did with your grandfather's beer bill at the bar. Every time, you know, my granddad went up and down Greenville Avenue. They were on Park Lane, Greenville Avenue, and they were about five bars that he'd go to. He liked to dance. He was 78 years old.

He was the toughest old bastard you've ever seen. And so, and he would, he didn't have any money. So I went to all the bars and they all knew me. You know the owners and I'd say listen, I don't want him buying rounds. I said, but as far as him drinking beer, just keep it on the table. Okay.

I said, just go, I'll come in the town. When I come in the town, I'll come by. And I mean, I can't believe a man could drink that much beer. I mean, I'd go to a bar and it was $100. And I'd go to another one that was 180. And I'd go, where the hell is he drinking all this? How much for beers back then? Oh, a quarter.

I mean, holy moly. But that's what I did for him. I did that. I was so good. My mom, my house, when I won the open in 68, I bought her a little small house, cost me $25,000. And then the biggest mistake I ever made, but I shouldn't have, I didn't realize,

I didn't have sense enough to realize this, because we had all the old furniture, all the old stuff, the big troll, the whole thing. So I told him, I said, listen, I want to buy our new house. And I told this lady that was working with me. And I said, listen, you think you can furnish it? I said, I can take care of that. I said, she said, yeah, I said, what are you going to do with the old stuff in the house?

I said, throw it away. Oh, she said, I'll take it. I said, okay. I mean, this was worth more, that's the way. I threw away more stuff. Classic stuff. Oh, I mean, this stuff was really, I mean, this was worth more than that, through way more stuff. Classic first. Oh, I mean, this stuff was really, you know, an antiques, but I threw them all away.

Had to teach your mom how to use the phone. She had the phone, yeah, but. Well, if you're gonna, if you're gonna comment on your grandfather's beer drinking tabs, we gotta go through some of the stories because you could throw it back in the day as well. And I was amazed or I mean, you were saying, I'm not going to, this is well documented, but you're not going to find that in the

current day. Guys, don't roll off the golf course into the clubhouse of your field village now and throw back as many beers as you would throw back. Let me tell you something. When we played on tour and all the old guys, well, they're all gone. I mean, I mean, they're older than I am. And so they're all gone. But they'll tell you that we didn't have on juice in the locker room and Coke, you know, and water. We had a bar. You know, the locker room attendant knew what you liked. As soon as you come in and sit down if you drink scotch and water as soon as you sit down you know that locker room and I mean he that was his living he'd come down and with a scotch and soda and him Mr. Trabino he said I don't know what

you shot he said but there's some make you feel better sure dead sure well and then that's it I mean you know and there's nothing worse than getting a buzz because you you chase it. Yeah, you know, you're going to always chase a buzz. But oh, no, we we we always had a beer cooler. I mean, it was unbelievable. The one time in Chicago, I thought I was going to get killed is I played in the morning and I played terrible and We were playing Butler there's a men only course and I was in a locker room and they had Papal ribbon. They had the little Ken a little little six ounce Ken and I finished and JC hadn't teed off yet and I finished it noon. He teed off at 8 12 40s I. So I started drinking Papagulla River. And when he finished, I was still sitting there drinking Papagulla River.

So he played bad and he doesn't even drink. And JC will tell you, and Sue, his wife, was waiting on him at the hotel. And he sat down with me and started drinking and we stayed till 11 o'clock. And we stayed till 11 o'clock and I took him home and she grabbed him by the throat when she got to the door and I took off running. I'll never get there because JC never touched it.

He never touched the drink. That was the only time I ever saw him drink. Well what happened at the 1968 PGA Championship? I believe you were drinking on the Saturday night and then something happened with some Gatorade. This story is incredible. Well, I should have won that PGA. We're playing Picon Valley in San Antonio.

I've got a condominium right next to the clubhouse, because they had the condos there. And a guy by the name of Bucky Boy at the time, his son is a big agent for some of the ball players and stuff now, but his dad was a fantastic guy. And he was a go-getter. He was a type of guy that you could kick him out the door, but he clamped through a window where you didn't take no for an answer. We're sitting there in their party

and in the living room. Well, I gotta get to bed, because I'm there pretty close. You know, I'm a shot back or whatever it was. I might have been leading or tied. So anyway, so, no, I wasn't tied because I finished before the other guys. And so, maybe a couple of shots back.

I can get the answer for you right here. Third round, you were two shots back. Yeah, I was tied for third. Yeah, right. I was a couple of shots back. And they're all pointing everything. All of a sudden, the guy comes to the front door with a case of gatorade.

And nobody knew what the hell this was. Gatorade, what is it? He said, well, it's a thing that they did in Florida, or Florida State College, and they did it for the players, get hydrated, and all this, baloney. And I said, okay, I tasted it. I said, hell, this is pretty good stuff. So now we're drinking tequila.

And they said, well, how is it if you mix it with tequila, and the guys is pretty good. So we started mixing it with tequila. It was pretty and the guys is pretty good. So they started mixing it with the keelah. It was pretty good. It was pretty good, so it was good, right? So I said, man, I said, I gotta go to bed. So it was about midnight. I'm not gonna play the one, 32 o'clock. So all of a sudden, I wake up about three, four o'clock

in the morning, and I'm thirsty, boy. I am thirsty as I can be. And I see this, this kind of this pan, you know, that you'd boil eggs in or something, and it's in the refrigerator, and it's got gatorade in it. And I said, oh, shit, I'll drink that. And I chugged a lug that stuff,

and it was full of tequila. Well, I'm right back where I started. I'm right back where I started. And it was 108 degrees the next day. I don't know how I ever finished. That was a worse, silly stuff, silly stuff. What did you shoot that fight around? It wasn't good. Let me see if it's 75 maybe

Let's see if it's in there you didn't finish in the top 10 no, you know, you fell bad on a weight shot. Yeah, yeah, maybe I'm still after Yeah, it wasn't good. It wasn't good. Ah damn that is But that was it was that gave a rate. I mean, it was, it was good, but at the Kayla, we liked it. It was, what about an exhibition in Gary, Indiana, with Tommy Bolt? I shot like 29 on the front, and they had a pickup truck chasing us down the fairway.

And it was full of beer. And I said, how many beers do you think I can drink on the back nine? And the guy says, I don't know, they're starting to bet on how many beers I can. I think I drank 10 or something on the back nine. I got 13 in my mouth. Could have been.

Could have been. Could have been. I think about 13 beers on the back. And I think Tommy beat me. I could have been. I drank about 13 beers on the back and I think Tommy beat me. I got the world rolling the ball, but they were laughing. We were having a hell of a time. I think you shot 43 of the back down. Oh yeah. I got gone.

I was gone. But all the gallery was drinking with me. They had the whole, I wasn't the only one drinking those beers, you know, they had a pick up truck full of ice, stacked up with beer all the way to the top. When did it, when did it click for you that, you know, obviously you learn about making all this money, playing golf on the tour, but learning about

what kind of money you could make off the tour, endorsements and, you know, the personality that you brought to golf, well, how marketable that was. What was that kind of journey like? Well, I didn't understand it to tell you that through this, almost like this golf thing again. I didn't know that there was that kind of money out there in doing this endorsement. See, Mr. Palmer knew it because of McCormick.

I didn't have that. My whole interest was playing golf, winning money on the golf course. I had an old belief that I had the third, third, third mentality. You save a third, you pay the taxes with a third and you spend a third. And I thought that's how the world turns.

And it does not. I understand there's a lot. If you win, it took me a while to realize that you're measured by majors. But you have to win other tournaments to go along with those majors. There were a lot of players that won majors that never won anything else. So as far as the endorsements go, it was, it was short, maybe a year and then they didn't win anything else. They're gone.

You understand? And this is how they do that. And it took me a while. It took me a while. I didn't really understand endorsements until I went and got managed by Chuck Rubin, which was Tom Watson's brother-in-law, which was Tom Watson's agent, and he was at a Kansas city. And that's when I started making

the big... I didn't start making the big dollars until the champions tour in 90. I made a lot of money after that. See, I quit playing in 81. People don't realize that. That injury. Yeah, I had four back injuries, you know, I got hit by lightning and I quit.

I quit actually participating in 1981. And so I went to the NBC's with, and do the color for NBC for eight years. And then when I turned 50, I quit. And Miller came in. But I didn't play, I only played like 13, 14 years. And I came out of the tower and won the BJ in 84. But I was practicing hard.

And I got on a golf course at you. The drivers won it there, nothing else. I mean, it was the driver who we could, you couldn't play out of that rough. Nobody could play out of that rough. But um, that was show Creek. Yeah. But the big endorsements came, I won four the first five on the senior tour and they said, oh, oh, oh, oh, this is okay.

He's going to rule for a little bit. I got to tell you a story about the senior tour. This is a hell of a story. When I turned 50, I knew that Nicholas was turning 50 60 days after me. And I said, I think I can do okay. Because they invited me to a tournament that celebrity tournament that they play out there in Nevada that they just played it.

The senior tour was having a program out there and they invited me and I wasn't quite 50 yet and they invited me to come out because they wanted to test me to see, because everybody was raven about the magazines, had headlines about Trevino's going to turn to the Trevino, the Trevino that. And I can understand the guys out on the senior tour, the champions tour were saying what the hell are they talking about? Not going to be that easy for them. So they're having this senior pro-M out there, and I went out and played, and I either shot 64, 66,

and won it. And I remember her normal mood, he says, yeah, I didn't believe it. I couldn't believe it. He says, yeah, you're right. You're right. Yeah, he is. He is going to be there.

So I ended up winning four of the first five when I turned 50. And then I got a thought, Nicholas didn't play in any of those. And I figured that I'd do okay if Nicholas didn't play. So I came up with an idea and I called Barbara Nicholas wife and I said to her, Barbara, you keep Jack every week that you keep Jack at home. I'm going to send you a dozen roses. I said him, I played 38 tournaments that year.

I sent Barbara 30 dozen roses. I did. You can ask her. I sent her 30 dozen roses. I sent her a dozen roses every week. He didn't like. You won seven times on the senior tour in 1990. You won the US senior open that year.

Yeah, I remember the senior tour being, that's right around when I started getting into golf when I was a kid. And I remember the senior, it was a big deal back then. Ridgwood, yeah. Yeah, I played Ridgwood, great golf course. Yeah, great golf course. Hmm.

What, um, what, what, Breeze passed this, a big thing in your life that happened here, when getting struck by lightning in 1975, which... Well, that's a hell... You know, that's a great story also, because simply because we were playing the open championship in Medina. And they had two tournaments in a row in Chicago and we were playing Butler at the Western

Open, and it was the next week. So on a Friday, I'm on the team, and it's about 10 o'clock, 11 o'clock in the morning. And that team's got some bleachers around it. In other words, it's full of gallery. And it starts lightning. That was before the years that we had a detector. You know, you knew lightning was in the area and it'd get you in.

Styron would go off. When at the end, then you just just a little cloud and say, well, what do you think? I know there's too far away and at all this baloney, you know, and you keep playing So I'm on the I'm on the tea fixed a teal This young man comes out and says mr. Torino says they told me to come and get you They've suspended plate and they told me to come and get you. They've suspended plate and they told me to come and get you and and and bring you in the club house. I said, what for? And they said, well, they said, there's lightning in the thing and they want you out of the out of the off the team. And I'm trying to be a clown and in the stuff and I looked around and I said, well, let me ask you this.

And I said, what do you want me to do with all these people here? They're on bleachers that are steel and do we take them in the clubhouse too or they don't count. He said, I don't know much to renew. He said, they just told me to come and get you. I said, well good. I said, who ever told you that? You go back in there and you tell them that not to worry. If it starts lightning, I'll take my one iron out and I'll hold it up in the sky because not even God can hit a one iron. And everybody laughs like hell in on the whole deal. And I went into clubhouse, right? The next week on a Friday, we're playing butler. Starts getting a little cloudy. And all of a sudden, a lightning bolt struck.

And they had suspended play after we hit our balls to the par three, which is 12 or 13. I can't remember the whole. And we're on the green. I'm playing with Mike Fetchich and Jerry Hurd. And all of a sudden, they suspended play. And we said, we're not going in. It's not raining. I mean, come on.

They're going to bring us right back out here. I'm not going to walk all the way in. So we set our bags down, we sit down at the back of the green and there's a lake right there and there's lightning bolt hit the lake and the rays shot out and pick me up off the ground. Stretch me out just like a cartoon. Just like a cartoon. I'm about a foot and a half off the ground completely Scott me in a prone position and I'm stretched out And I can't get my breath because that's what lightning strikes do I mean they take you can't breathe and then you black out and

I can't I can't I remember trying to Breathe I could there's nothing nowhere going in Next thing I know the ambulance was there. I'd been on the ground for almost an hour. They put me on a board because they picked me up and I was all tangled up. They didn't know what was broken. I went to this hospital in Tensivkir. I spent two days there and had some burn marks out of my left shoulder, entered my left shoe.

And I'll never, the thing that I'll never forget is when my wife was on the phone and she says, how, how are you doing? I said, Claudia, you are not going to believe this. That lightning had me off the ground stretched out. And for the first time in my life, I was six, two. And she said, he's okay. He's okay. He took me a long time to get me back. Because it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, back after that. Yeah, well, I've had four back operations. I have a steel plate in my throat,

and then I have two steel rollers in my back for separation because it comes down. So I put two steel rollers in there, and I'm good. I'm good. Yeah. What was it like experiencing lightning after that had happened?

I mean, I had to have scar tissue. Right now. Well, you know, that's what happened with all the things now. And you have good days and bad days. But I have, I've had good days. Every since I've had the two rollers put in, I went to Germany, Cologne, Germany to have this procedure.

Really? And there's just little rollers with wings on them, and they put them in between your facettes, and it gives you your separation. What the nerves can work on there. I'm saying when you had lightning, you played golf after this, there's lightning after this. What was it like, you know, going back out there and knowing that I was lighting it there? Well, I respected a hell of a lot more now.

If I have no place to go, if I have no place to go and you're in the middle of a golf course, find the deepest bunker you can find and get in the bunker. In other words, get below the ground and then you'll be okay. Yeah, you'll be okay. Don't be afraid to get in a deep bunker and get up against the lip of it. So you're below ground and you're okay. But if I get out there and see it lightning, Carl Lewis came out, run me to the clubhouse.

Hey, I'm telling you. Now, I don't measure with it. I don't measure it at all. Well, I've got like, a story, 85 different stories. I want to get at least, at least ask you about here. But so this is going to be a little random grab bag of a bunch of stuff that you've told in the past or written about in the past.

But I want you to tell me about trying to drive to Panama for Mexico in the area of my piss. God, this guy, I'll never, you know, I can't hardly, his last name was Gray. I can't remember his first name. He was a student at SMU, he graduated. He's a poker player, gambler. And he bet on me.

He would go out and watch me play other guys. And he would bet on my side. He actually went to San Francisco with me in 66 when I was there. In other words, when I went there for the open, but he liked the way I played, but he was a gambler. He knew that I could beat people. So he, he'd take me in there. So he says, you know, they got a tournament in Panama. He said, we ought to go down there and see it. Play it. And I said, OK. How far is it?

And he said, well, look at this map. And I said, OK. So we're looking at the map. And he says, you see here, because they say that from the end of your knuckle on your thumb to the end of your fingernail, it's an inch, okay? So I get the map out and I go, oh hell, I said it, it will take that long.

I said because the thing here is every inch is 300 miles or whatever, so we can get there in three days or whatever, so we take off on a Friday, I'll never forget it. We had a brand new O's mobile, brand new car, cutlass, and we take off. And we drive down to the Guatemala border. We don't have any papers to get in the Guatemala.

We didn't know you had to have a visa. We didn't know it. And then the permit for the car. So now, okay, so we're looking at this guy and we're saying to him okay where do we go? Oh Sanjore says you have to go 50 miles back. He says to the city. What's really? Yeah the councilor is in the city. So now we drive 50 miles back and we get the papers for the car and we get everything else. So now we take off again. And now I think we get to El Salvador, I believe

so far, not mistaken. Same thing. Gotta go backwards. Are you kidding me? We got there about 15 hours before the tournament started on Thursday. Now I'm gonna tell you, we drove to River Bottoms. There were no roads. We drove through the river. How am I live? It's just the most amazing thing in the world. We drove through the river bottoms. We actually, we said we got it now. It was just, it was a wagon tracks.

And we're going like this, but there's barbed wire fence on both sides for the animals, whatever the cattle run in. But all of a sudden we get out there in the middle of nowhere and there is a gate in which who's standing at those gates. They've got the guns and they've got the... I don't know if it was the cartel or the army or who it was. And they're saying, where are you going? And you told them he could speak Spanish and I could speak broken Spanish, you know. So we got to talking about what the hell's going on. So all of a sudden, a guy says to me,

he says, you smoke, yeah. You got any cigarettes? Yeah, yeah. Again, a couple packs of mom breath. He says, I like those hats in the back. I said, which one do you want? That one, I said, okay. I said, yo, I said, yo, shit.

We, he's, he's, he's, he's, he's,, it's here, we, we, you thought there was a tornado, man. You never see so much dust in your life. We were going out of there. We drove all the way to Panama. It took forever. Like eight, six or seven days or so. Oh, yeah, seven days and nights. We drove.

I was worn out. I finished fifth in the tournament. And we were worn out. We won $500 and he lost it in the poker game. So you know what we did? We sold the car, we sold the car and got a flow out. Yeah, we got an airline ticket and flew home. Crazy.

I mean, I mean, you can't, you can't make this up. I mean, I mean, it's unbelievable. Oh, man. Well, what about, we haven't even talked really about El Paso, which has played a huge role in your life, but you end up moving to El Paso. Remime, which year it was, right? And sometime in the mid-60s, I believe.

66, I think it looks. Yeah. Raymond Floyd comes one day. Tell us a story about playing Raymond Floyd. Well, the thing about it is, I was working, you know, at the range now. And all of a sudden, I was working at the range now. And all of a sudden, there's a guy out of Fort Worth

they're playing for pretty big money out now, past the, they're playing a lot of poker, cotton farmers, a lot of money. And they had one guy out there who's named Martin Letnitch, he's passed away now. And he actually is kind of, every club has a kind of a ringleader, you know, and it's all, and Horizon Hills is just kind of a, not even a blue collar golf course.

I mean, it's down down. I mean, it's just nothing. We don't know, we're gonna do, we got greens and you can play it if you want to. There's rocks and sand and no grass. So anyway, so they were playing that there. And it was an old guy that used to play the two other names, Fred Hawkins. Pretty good player. He's retired couldn't play anymore, so he was out there in El Paso. And he was beating these guys up pretty good,

you know, playing. So all of a sudden, there was a guy from Fort Worth that they're playing. And Martin Ledges goes to him and says, listen, he says, do you know anybody in Dallas that can play golf? No one knows. He said, yeah, he said, I know this much. Come boy, that plays at the driving range. He said, he's pretty good. And he says, yeah, he could do a good job for you. And he says, okay, so I'll call him.

So he calls me up. Now Martin Letnitz, his family was from Yugoslavia, but they've settled there after the war. They own the whole damn valley now. And he's very wealthy, man. But rolls his own cigarettes. I mean, very country this guy. Big man. And speaks Spanish fluently. But rolls his own cigarettes. I mean, very country this guy, big man,

and speaks Spanish fluently. And my fact is, brother doesn't even speak English. His brother speaks Spanish. He was a trader, a cattle trader. So he has to speak, speak it well. So Martin gets on the phone and he says, Hey Chico, Martin Ledman's here. Yeah, so he speaks, starts speaking Spanish to me

and I said, sir, are you speaking English? Yeah, I said, you know, I speak Spanish, I'm ashamed of it, but I don't speak Spanish that well, I understand some of it. He says, okay, he said, I need to hire you. I said, what do you need? He said, I want you to come to El Paso and play for me. I said, who do you want me to play? He said, I want you to play this guy Fred Hawkins.

I said, oh, I don't know who he is. Oh, he says, okay. So I go out there, I get off from the airplane. I've got a great can. He books you a flight, right? Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. So he said, I'm going to give you $100 a day to play for me. Well I was making a hundred dollars a week. So I said okay.

So I jump on the plane. I got this gray kangaroo bag. It says my Gregoron and Lee Trevino. And as soon as I get out, as soon as I get off, gets my bag and I go out. Here he comes in a blue pick up. It is so beat up, this pick up. It has run into everything. This thing is really bad shape. He's got hay in the back and wire. It's really nasty, really nasty. So he gets out of the, he says, is that your bag?

I said, yeah, he said, no, Chico. No, Chico, he says, we're not using that bag. I said, why not? He says, I got your bag? I said, yeah, he said no, Chico. No, Chico, he says, we're not using that bag. I said, why not? He says, I got it back for you. So he brings this green stick bag that we used to use. They had to stick in it. You carried it. You're too young to remember.

Trust me, yeah, he had a stick in it. And it's a raggedy thing. And he takes all my clubs out and he puts them in there. And he puts the gray bag in a blanket in the back. He didn't want to see me. So we go out to Horizon Hills. There was a guy that owned the stylist shoe company, was out there. Redmond was his name.

And he's on the putting green. And he says to, and he says to the guy that I'm playing. He says, listen, he says, listen, he said, who you playing? He said, I'm playing a little guy with her. Redmond says, I don't know. He said, what's his name? He said his name is Lietrovino.

And he says, Redmond says, you better be careful. He said, I think I've heard about this guy. And the other guy says, listen, he says, if I haven't heard from, if I haven't heard about him, he can't play. So I went out there and dusted him pretty good, okay? And we played the next day, we had a thing to play three days

and I went out the next day and played and ran over him again. So he left. He didn't show up for the third one. So then the city champion wanted to try me and I went back out and I'm a fisher and I beat him pretty bad. So Martin, Martin talked me into staying there

and I went ahead and I got a job at the club. I opened the club at five in the morning and I would take off at 11 to play in the game, you know, in the game. I played 5 to 11, 5 to 11, I practiced, played every day, I played every day, money games. So one day I saw a couple of bookmakers that I knew from Dallas. And I was wondering what they were doing in the pro shop, all of a sudden they're in the pro shop. I don't know how they found the place, but they found out that guys were playing for so

money. And batten on me. So I knew those guys from Tennyson Park anyway, so they came up and won them a system. He says, I hear that you guys are playing for a lot of money out here. I said, I'm not. I don't have any money. You know, five bucks is my limit. So he says, do you think if we brought a player out here,

they would bet on you. I said, I don't know. I said, you'd have to talk to Martin. He said, who's that? I said, he's standing right over there. I said, he's the guy with all the money. So he goes over there and he says to Martin Leittner, and he says, hey, he says, if we bring a man out here,

he says to play your little man. He says, y'all bet on your little man. And Martin says, sure. He said, we want to bring out, he says, who do you want to bring out? He says, we want to bring out, he says, who do you want to bring out? He says, we want to bring out Raymond Floyd. He said, bring him on, Chico. Now Martin, and just had no idea who Raymond Floyd was.

He was in the same boat, I mean, if he had said Arnold Palmer, he wouldn't know what. I mean, come on, this guy's a farmer, and he's right there. And he says, yeah, he said, so one day I opened the shop, brought the cards out. I have a clock in the morning, I got the shop open. I'm doing something vacuuming or something

in the locker room, that's what I did. And I hear this car drive up in the driveway in our parking lot, and we have like Kalichi gravel, you can hear it. In other words, you, in it, when a car drives in, you can hear it. And it's like Seminoe. Seminoe used to have all gravel, you can hear it when you park.

So I went out and I looked to see who was driving and there was a Cadillac. And no Cadillac, they were coming out driveway. And no Cadillac, they're all pickups or motor scooters or something, but there's a Cadillac? And no Cadillacs ever coming out driveway. And no Cadillacs. They're all pickups or motor scooters or something. But there's no Cadillacs. And all of a sudden I see this guy get out of the passenger side.

Tall, got those, had a pair of gorgeous blue pants on. He dressed, he dressed, yeah. Like a kid dressed. He dressed great. And he had this beautiful pair of slacks on and this shirt, alligator shoes. And I went out there and he had a Wilson bag with a cover all on it.

I mean, it must have weighed 200 pounds. He had junk in that thing. So I picked it up and I put it on the cart. Comes in the locker room. He sets down not too far away from where I'm at. I go over by the counter where the shoe counter is and I unzip the bag and balls fall out, shoes fall out. I'm trying to place them all on the floor. Get the cover off the bag. Big old, all he got all those clubs in

there. He's sitting in the chair. And he says, can I get a coke? Yeah, die coke. I go in the bar, get the die coke. The guy that's with him says, I'm going to go get a coke? Yeah, that coke. I go in the bar, get the that coke. The guy that's with him says, I'm gonna go get a golf cart. We wanna look at the golf course. He said, okay, okay, okay. So he says Raymond says, is there anybody here who can play Jim? I said, not this early, Mr. Floyd.

I said, not this early. And he said, let me ask you a question. What do you do around here? I said, I this early. And he said, let me ask you a question. What do you do around here? I said, I do a little bit of everything. I said, I open a shop, I bring the carts out, I do the back human. Just whatever needs to be done with Floyd, that's what I do. He said, well, let me ask another question.

He says, who am I playing today? And I said, you're playing me, Mr. Floyd. He went like this and he said, I'm playing you. Yes, sir. Okay. So the guy comes back. He says, come on, I got a card. Raymond says, for what? He said, you want to look at the course.

He said, I'm not going out there. He said, I'm playing the locker room attendant. He said, I'm going He said, I'm playing a locker room attendant. He said, I'm going out there. I'm playing a locker room attendant. No, I'm not going out there. So he didn't go. So I want to clock with T-Doth. I don't remember the scores real well,

but I think I shot 64 maybe. 65, 64, 65, I think. And then he shot a couple of shots back. I beat him. And when we finished up, we finished up about 530. He said, and Aaron, he said, I ain't had enough of this. He said, let's play another nine. And I said, Mr. Floyd, I said, I'd love to.

I said, but I can't play another nine. I said, I got to put the card stuff. He said, that's about right. He said playing the card man too. But I played in the next day and the scores were about to like beating him again and then I won again and then there's no beating Raymond you might win but he's tough. Short term yeah. He's tough man And so I ended up losing the next day. We had both had equal puts on 18 and we were tied. And he made his and I missed mine.

Yeah. But beat him two to one. I beat him two to one. And you're eight to your age. He got all his money back. He was the only one that bet on himself that third day. And you know, put the money up. Tell me about playing the open championship with Bruce Devlin at Royal Letham.

Almost did a spit take with the water. I told you know, we're crazy. Bruce is crazier than I am to tell you the truth. But he couldn't hit a driver. If he was, I'm gonna tell you something. If he was in a stadium, he couldn't hit a bleacher. I mean, the driver was really bad. I mean, he hit it everywhere.

So we're on the driving range and we're playing together. And I think we're first off. We're not playing well. What year was this to your member? I do not remember. OK. But we were on the driving range, and he is hitting it everywhere. And I've got this old McGregor driver with a nickel insert.

You know, it's a little round nickel thing to it. And 1969, by the way. Was it? Yeah. So he starts hitting. So I said, really? You can't. He said, I can't hit Yeah. So he starts hitting. So I said, really? You can't, I can't hit a damn thing with this driver. I said, well, something wrong with it.

I said, hit mine. So he sat there and he pounded my driver. Boom! Boom! One right after the other. And he looked at me and he says, my God, he said, what in the world? I said, I have no clue. I said, well, I take what we'll do. We'll use the same driver.

He said, how the hell we're going to do that? I said, it's easy. I said, we have an observer. I said, but as soon as you hit the driver, I hit the driver. What does he do? He looks at the ball. I mean, I mean, he's not going to be looking at you. He's going to be looking to see where the ball's going. I said, so it's, if you're up first, you take my driver from the caddy. And as soon as you hit, I'm going to walk right by you and you make sure that you make sure that my driver is, is, is it whichever side that I'm walking by you on and I'm going to hand you the other one. We used to 14 holes. And I told him if the everyone has to send the money, we only want like $12.

We didn't we didn't think but we had a lot of fun. That's what this life's about. You know, everything's about getting up in the morning and laughing. You can tell by looking at a person. You can look at the wrinkles around their mouth and you can tell whether they're, I can tell how to talk to them. If I see everything going like this, I go like this.

Yeah. What about, this was, I guess, was this controversial during your time? I believe you were a bandaid over it to cover it, but a tattoo that you got it as soon as you were in your life. I had a tattoo, you know, I had a girlfriend and I had a puppy, you know, this puppy love stuff. And then I went to Marine Corps and I weighed and I did this. So I wouldn't go on a month and I got a do a John, as you well know, you're always going

to get that. So I got to do a John letter and everything. And so that's the way it was back then. So what I did is I got a friend in the Marine Corps and I said, well, you get a tattoo and the guy says, I can do it for you. I said, who do you mean you can and the guy says, I can do it for you? I said, who do you mean you can do it for me? And he did.

He took a needle and he put some twine around the head of the needle and he dipped it in the ink and then put it in your skin and he could put the name and an an on here on my forearm. And that's what he did. The problem is I had to have it burn 75 times because he went so deep. You know when I took it off, but yeah, I put the, yeah.

And that was, and you guys broke up shortly after that when you got back and you had that time. Oh, I never saw her again. Never saw her again. Yeah, I saw. Well, I saw her. You know what a dear John Lederus. That's breaking up with some, yeah.

I saw her about 35 years later. Yeah, I did. Do you still have a tattoo? Were you able to get it removed years later. Yeah, I did. Do you still have a tattoo? Were you able to get it removed? No, I haven't. You got what you're going. It's gone.

I saw it about 35 years later. Maybe it was that. I don't remember. But it was way back. I was doing something. I was working. You know what? I was doing a store appearance.

That's what it was. I remember for Dr. Pepper somebody, and this girl kept talking to me and talking to me, and she says, you don't remember me. And I said, I'm sorry, and says, I'm Ann. I said, you gotta be joking. We're in the world, have you been? She's gotten married and had two or three kids and stuff. That was somebody, I just saw that for a little while. Yeah. This this would just crack me up. What

about you're flying with Gary Player sub time and you make a stop in the Canary Islands. And do you remember what Gary Player did? Yeah, the man nuts. You know, all that thing that Gary tells you about not even bread, not eating bread and not eating sweets, I watched him pack his suitcase one time with 24 snicker bars, you know, he had in a bag, 20 or I guess he was taking him to his kids, I don't know, but he's a health nut. But yeah, we stopped in the Canary Islands and all of a sudden I see Gary come out of the bathroom with running gear on. And he's got his sweatsuit on.

I said, where in hell are you going? He said, oh man, he said, this is the best place to run. He says, you got the whole runway. And he ran out there until the plane was ready to take off. I'm the man who's not right. I'm the man, he's not right. I'm telling you, I went to stay with him. I'll never forget this in my life. I went there and we did some exhibitions together.

We raised money for his schools, and I went to South Africa, and we're out there in one of his farms, and he's got these race horses, and he's parake said, I'm gonna show you something, he says. Oh, I said, this is a champion. Champion.

I said, what's a champion? He said, I'll show you a champion. I got, he brings his horse out parades in front of us. Beautiful horse. A race horse. He's got the right blood. He said, he's a champion. I said, really?

Is he run yet? No, not run yet. He says, but he said, I'm gonna I'm going to tell you half of it. And I ended up giving him $6,000 for half of this damn horse. I didn't know what went with it. You know, buying a horse is nothing. That's like buying a car and never putting gas in it. You understand? It's not going to cost you anymore.

But a horse, he's got to have a groomer, an exercise boy, a jockey. He's got to have somebody put his shoes on every day. I mean, it's unbelievable. Somebody to give him a bath. And so we get back home. And my wife keeps getting these bills, 1,400, 1,200, 1,500. So my wife says to me, she says,

when is this damn horse gonna run? And I said, well, I don't think he's ready yet. She says, look, this is crazy. So all of a sudden I get a message from Gary and said that the horse, something to his intestine and he died. The horse died and my wife looked up and she says there is a God. She said, it's a God. So I told Gary, she says no, he says my brother.

He says my brother. He says, I am going to make this good. He says the next champion I get, he says, I'm gonna give you half for nothing. I said, no, you can keep my half. I said, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no't know anything about, you know, they talk about apartheid and they talk about, yes, they did have that. He was always against it. Since the day I met him, he was against it. He fought against it. He thought Mandela was the best thing that happened to South Africa in a long time.

But the thing that he did is he knows that the future of any country is education. You got to have the education to know how. And all these kids that were not being educated in South Africa, he started building schools and he started giving them a place to go and learn. If not to get the highest of learning, at least able, in other words, to take care of themselves. And he still does it.

We do outings. They just had one in New York, up in New York, a big one. And so he raises a lot of money every year, all year, in other words, to do those schools there in South Africa. But he is the sweetheart. I mean, he's in shape too. See, he, see the thing that he did

and you have to look at it like David and Goliath. Okay, one guy's really big and one guy's really small. You gotta figure out how to bring that big guy down. You understand? The only way you can bring that big guy down is to out working. You got out working. You got to be in better shape. And you don't have to hit his heart as him, but you got to hit him more times. And every time he hits you and knocks you down, you jump up like a rabbit and that guy was start getting scared. He said, damn, I hit him with

what? Oh, it's all I had. It's all I had, I better get a bat. But that's the thing with him. His brother went to war. And when his brother went to war, he gave him a set of barbells. He says, you're not going to be a big guy. He says, you need to get in shape because everybody's going to be bigger than you are. And he taught him, I mean, he knew what he wanted. He knew exactly what he wanted, man. That Canary Allen story just cracked me up.

Oh yeah, he's out there running with a damn airplanes, you know, I said. Ha, ha, ha, ha. Oh yeah. You gotta have some good Arnold Palmer stories. Do you have a, I hate to ask in the open to the question of what your go to, Arnold Palmer's story is, but you gotta have some good Arnold Palmer stories. Do you have a, I hate to ask in the open to the question of what your go to, Arnold Palmer's story is, but you gotta have some.

The best story I got with Arnie. And it was a writer cup in 75, he was the captain. Never spent much time with Arnold. You know, I, he was, he's a busy guy, you know, played golf with him, but I never did much, but I have two stories with him. One is last tournament that he played in. I played with him. But we're at the Ryder Cup, and we won the, they were 32 points then, and we won the Ryder Cup with a round to go. In other words, we didn't have to place the second round if we didn't want to,

but that was when they played two rounds on Sunday because it was 32 points. So we won the cup, we won 32 and a half points in the four rounds. We didn't have to play the last one. We did play it, but we didn't have to. You had to clinch it up for the last session. So I'm tired. I've played every match. They always put me out first. So I'm in the locker room and Arnie says, OK, baby. He said, you're up. I said, Arnie, I've played every round. I've played five rounds. I'm exhausted.

I said, send somebody in that have been playing. Doesn't make any different. Oh no, he said, the governor's waiting on you on the first tee. I said really? I said yeah. And I said okay. I said how much time have I got? He said you got 40 minutes. I said good. Tell the locker room to bring me a six pack of rolling rock. And he says what? I said tell the locker guy, give me six pack of rolling rock. And I got on a bench like this and I had to six pack it. And I inhaled four beers and 15 minutes. And I went out, I got little buzz on,

and I went out the locker room. And the governor's over there, and he sticks his hand out, and I missed it. I went right by him, see. So, anyway, he thought I was out and I missed it. I went right by him, see. So, anyway, he thought I was joking and I'm glad. Because I did, I missed it completely. But anyway, so we turned at nine. And I'm playing a guy named Norman Wood.

He's a golf pro now in Scotland. And I didn't know who Norman was. And so he's got me two down at the turn. And Arnold is in the Pravillian, and the 10th T's right over, this wall here. And he says, how you doing? I said, I'm two down. He said, hold it right there.

He goes over and gets me two beers and hands him over. He hands him over the thing. Did you come back? No, I was foreign three. But I had the pleasure. I still have the golf ball of playing the last round of golf with Mr. Palmer. It was done at Augusta Pines in Houston. And we were playing a senior tournament there.

And I birdied one, and I birdied two. And I was going down the third hole, and he comes over to me, and he says, are you trying to embarrass me? He scared me to tell you the truth. And I said, what are you talking about? And he starts laughing. And I said, I pulled both of those pots and they went in. Hell, I met Radon.

I said, did you know you do that sometimes? So we get to the part three. And this part three is like a boomerang. It's like a banana. And it's over water. And the pin was on the right corner. And I hit five iron in there, about 25 feet left of the hole. And he gets up and he's got a hybrid.

And he hits it. And when he hits it, man, he starts rocking that head, you know, and stuff. And all of a sudden, nobody says anything. And so he turns to me and he says, how close is that? I said, how close is what? He said that ball. I said, oh, no, I said, the pins on the right side. He said, what? I said, the pins on the right corner of the green.

He said, well, what the hell is that? I'm looking at there. I said, that's a pine tree. It was a tree that he shot at. And the ball hit the green and came back in the water. And I said, I don't know how to tell you this. I said, but that ball came back and went in water. And he looked at me and he said, that's it.

This is what he said. he said, that's it. This is what he said. He said, that's it. He said, that's it. I'm not playing anymore. I said, what do you mean I'm playing more? You want to take my card and go in or what? No, no, no, he says, I don't ever leave a golf course. He said, I'm going to finish playing.

He said, but I don't want any score on the board. So I told the lady not to put anything on the board. But he says, I'm not playing anymore. He said, that's it. That'll be my last time. I mean, he quit at Augusta Pines on the, that part three, four, five, I don't remember which one to work.

So now I'm playing with John Mahaffey and I. John Mahaffey and I and Arlene. So naturally, my mind's going. I said, you know, last round, Arnold Palmer, my mind was going. I said, you know, last round, on a parmer, what can I get? I gotta get something he can autograph for me. I said, a ball. I want the last ball he hits on 18.

So now, I only want to put on a show. On his trying to go over lakes, he's going over trees. He's hitting shots. He's never hitting his life. But the ball problem is the ball's not going anywhere and he's going in the water. He keeps hitting balls in the water. And I'm over with wedges, fit trying to fish him out.

Because I'm afraid, well, I'm afraid he's going to run out of balls. Yeah. And now I don't have a ball with a rumble on it. You understand? He's going to be using mine or somebody else's or somebody brings him some. So I said He's going to be using mine or somebody else's or somebody brings him some. So I said he's going to run out of balls. And I'm fishing the balls out of the water and getting them back to him and starting, he's rifling everything. He's going everywhere,

right? We had a hell of a time, hell of a time. So he comes to 18. He's got an 8-foot part put and the caddy grabs the flag and I move the caddy out of the way. I said, no, no, I got this one. You're not tolling this flag. I'm holding this one. And so I got the caddy out of the way. And I'm holding the flag and I'm standing close to the hole and he makes it. And I reach down and I grab the ball out of the hole and I ask him, I said, can I have this ball?

He said, sure. I said, OK. And my half he I said, can I have this ball? He said, sure. I said, okay. And my half, he says, what can I get? I said, ask him for the glove. And he didn't want to give it up, because you know, his warehouse, his museums full of them down gloves. And it smells gloves in there. But so anyway, my half, he got the glove.

I got the ball. The saddest day of my life was when I sat on the couch with him. And the media, it was outside, just outside the locker room, they had a couch there with a media, small media. And he sat there and they asked him a question. And he couldn't speak. And I get emotionally even talking about it. And he couldn't speak. And I get emotionally even talking about it and he couldn't speak. And I'm sitting next to him and I look over at him and I see a tear coming out of his

eye and he just sat in there and he looked at me and I'm trying to think of what to say to break this. And I said he went fast, didn't it? Life goes really fast. And he looked at me and he says, you know, you're right. And then he started talking to the media. Yeah. But what happens with, in my opinion with that, is a lot of thoughts going through. It can't say anything. But it was, I went to his memorial. It was fantastic. You know, I mean, it was, I can't tell you there's more people that watch that than anything

hardly. I mean, Arnold Palmer. He was a... I don't know how you put it to tell you the truth. He was it. He was an it. You feel like he understood his role. It's so well as the ambassador of golf. His father... Everyone's got a story about how. Can you imagine what that dad did to him? And you know what? And his dad was tough with him. It wasn't that he

pampered him. You know, he put his hands on that driver, which was the greatest grip in the world. And then he was trying to hit it farther and put the right hand underneath. That's not going to make it. That's not going to give you any distance. I said, you're going to break your left ankle. I said, you're going to hit a one in a heel. I said, you're going to have that hand here and it's going to turn over and that ball's going to hit you in the ankle. Well, blew my mind. Just speaks to his popularity though, but 1968 P.J. Championship that you won, you're leading going into the final round, but you played in the second

to last group because he played in the last group. He's almost in the last place, but the USGA wanted him out on TV. He played behind the last group, the leading group at the fight around on Sunday. They came to us and I was playing with Bert Yancey. We were playing the last round at Oak Hill. And they came and they said, television was just starting to get cranked up as far as tour was concerned. So they came out and they said to us, this is, do you really mind if another two someplace, a couple of holds behind you?

And we said, no, not at all. What's the problem? And they said, well, you know, the media and television and all our fans, they want to see Arnold Palmer. And we're going to put him in behind you and Bert with an amateur, which was a real hot amateur at the time. He never made it as a professional, tried to, but he never did. And his name was Jack Lewis and good college

player, great college player, great amateur. But he just, he didn't pan out as far as the tourist concert. And they played behind us. And that was one of the first times I ever met him. I was in the scores 10. And he came over and shook my hand and I looked up at him and I said man This is better than winning the turn-off and then I went to the media Which was in a parking lot right behind the green and it was a Believe it or not it was a funeral 10 and They had two cameras there because that was when they had AP and UPI back then. And I spent about 10 minutes, five minutes with him.

And then we jumped in the car and went to the El Sombrero and had a margarita. That was it. That was it for me. Wow, what a highlight. Yeah. I can't believe it hasn't come up yet. And I know you've talked about this a lot in the past, but you've had up and down relationship with the gust

and national masters throughout the course of your life. You mentioned, you know, you boycott it at times. You've mentioned the regret of all that, that in going through that. I wanted to just tell the story of who talked you it back into or kind of why you ended up not, why you felt uncomfortable at the masters or at Augusta and how you ended up coming back around on that.

My problem with Augusta was this when we got there on a Monday morning they were four people in my car and we came to the guard gate to go in and they said to me you can go in Mr. Trevino, but the other three people can. They're going to have to go down through the other gate and buy a gallery ticket. I said, no, they're not getting out here and they're not buying a gallery ticket because I'm going to get them a gallery ticket when I register. And they said, no, you can't do that. And that's what set it off.

That's what started the ball rolling right there. I had my caddy with me that took care of me. He drove my car, took care of my stuff. Neil Harvey. They wanted to kick him out. So I ended up getting into it with Cliff Roberts. The golf course never had anything to do with me not going there. I love that place.

It's gorgeous. I was even in business there in Heps-Paw right down the street. We had a dairy. I was in business there with a farmer. This whole thing with a gust of started with Cliff Roberts and the tickets. And the way he can't defend himself simply because he's passed away. I don't talk too much about him. But he wasn't very pleasant to talk to when I talked to him about trying to get my tickets in the whole thing.

And I didn't agree with it. And I said, I'm not going through this. So then when the media was going, I was trying to rub the... I didn't want to say anything about Mr. Roberts. And you understand? So when they said to me, you know what? I said, well, I can't play the course. There's too many dog legs to the left.

And that's the way I left it. What are you talking about? I can play in a corn patch. It doesn't play the chorus. There's too many dog legs to the left. And that's the way I left it. What are you talking about? I can play in a corn patch. It doesn't make any difference. I learned to play golf in a pasture digging a hole with a butcher knife. And I can't play a gustor. Are you crazy? No.

I let it twice. In other words, after 36 holes. So no. My whole thing was with a dictator. Yeah, he was a tiktok. And if people were really honest and you asked anybody else out there about him and they told you the truth, they tell you the truth, the same thing I just told you. He was a tough cookie. He was a tough cookie and it was his way or the highway. I took the highway. You understand, I didn't want to argue with him

because I'm short-fused. I've got a short few. Yeah, there's some of those stories in your book which I would highly recommend to people. I think you do need an update to your autobiography. If it's been 40 years, I think. Yeah. There's a line in there,

I don't even know how to ask a question around this, but this may be just cackle. I was sitting in my back porch. I don't know if I could feed you the term manual labor. Do you have a go-to line about that one? Oh, do you mean the manual labor? Yeah. I started all that stupid stuff when I was on tour,

after I made money and became somebody, they said, man, where did you come in? I said, I didn't know manual labor. I thought manual labor was a Mexican company. I know you've told that before, but that got me so good, reading. I used to tell all those stories, and then my friends would come and say,

hey, man, what are you doing? I did just, it's a joke. I'm never serious about anything. When you won the 1971 Open Championship, you won $13,000. How much did you come home with? The which one? The Burkdale, 71, you won $13,000, right?

How much did you come home with? None, none, none. Why is that? That was my whole deal. I played in a pro-am at Big Horn, and three years ago, I won the Big Horn shootout over there, and I got a $6,000 and I waived the check at him, and they said, what is it?

I said, man, this makes me feel like playing the open at Berkdale. And they said, why is that? I said, because I lost money at both tournaments. You know, oh yeah, that's, yeah, we had 12, we had a bunch of people with us. We went to Muirfield, we lost more. I had 12 people, rented a castle. You just heard the nuns. You promised some nuns money if you won the tournament.

That was in Berkdale, that was from the... Jimmy Dina not. Jimmy Dina not, they were dressed in their... The whole thing, you know, and because I promised them if I won the tournament, I'd give them $5,000. So I won the tournament and there they are standing there. I mean the nuns and I said, okay, we're going. I said, we're going back to the Prince of Wales. So they

come back to the Prince of Wales. So we ended up going over the Kingsway casino to the bar. We had two nuns in the bar, Jimmy Dean and I. I mean, come on, there's not too many people can do this. And they came in with us, and we got them. But you know why they went in there? They didn't go in there to get the facts. I told them I was going to auction off the wedge. And I auctioned off the wedge, it got 13,000 for the wedge. So I gave it to the nuns for the children's, yeah, they had a school there.

Yeah. I gave away my wedge. Helen Hicks. That's her 1937. That's the wedges name. Yeah, 1937 is a ladies' wedge. That's that old wedge you're talking about. Yeah.

Yeah, had dimples in it. Yeah. Well, I do regret to end this because I think I can get you talking golf for six or seven more hours, but I'm conscious of your time as well. And we greatly appreciate you spend it some time with us telling some stories and I I've heard a lot of them in a lot of places But this was this was probably number one on my on my to-do list before I die was to get you in the in the podcast studio for for an interview

And this has been an absolute treat in an honor. So thank you very much Thank you for the time and the effort is greatly appreciated. Good. You go into the PJ show? Well, not be at the PJ show this year. We're going to be out of town for that one. But, but yeah, I'm in Dallas, a fair amount. You don't play a lot of golf these days, as I said. I don't, I don't, I don't play much.

I may play a couple of rounds next week. The last round I played, I shot 82. And I was kind of sad about it. And Daniel, my boy says to me, he says, what are you talking about? He said, you broke your age. I said, that's cold, boy. That's awfully cold.

He said, you broke your age. I said, that's cold. That's cold, blooded. I don't play. I play't play. I play, I played three holds, I played three holds a month ago, and we practiced David Graham and I, and we went to number 10 at Preston Trails, and I buried 10, I buried 11, and then we jumped over to 16, and I hit driver, wedge, and I chilly dipped it in the creek.

And I said to him, I said, what time is it? He said, 11.30. I said, let's go have a bowl of soup. I played two and a half holes. Now, I don't play much anymore. I can still hit it. You practice a lot though, still. I got it. I still got it.

That's good. I got it. I love your passion for it. So thank you again for having us down here. This was an honor. I bless you. Thank you very much. Thank you your passion for it. Thank you for having us down here. Thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you. It's so much fun.

Cheers. Be the right club today. Yes. That's better than most. How about him? That is better than most. Better than most. Better than most.