No Laying Up - Golf Podcast - NLU Podcast, Episode 792: Billy Horschel

Episode Date: February 14, 2024

After an eventful weekend in Scottsdale, Billy Horschel returns to the pod to talk through his experience with the crowd at the WM and how the event has changed over the course of his career. We also get into the PGA Tour - SSG deal, PIF investment, differing opinions on the road back for LIV players, his interview after shooting 84 at the Memorial last year and a ton more. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Music Be the right club, be the right club today. Music I mean that's better than most. How about him? That is better than most. Better than most. Music Expect anything different? Better than most.

Expect anything different. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to the No Laying Up podcast. Sally here got an interview coming shortly with our guy Billy Horschel caught up with him to talk a little bit about what went down this past week at Waste Management. What's going on with, you know, the PGA Tour, Golf Live, all that stuff, kind of his input on all that as well as, you know, the viral video that happened last year of him kind of breaking down at the memorial after, you know, the PGA tour, golf live, all that stuff, kind of his input on all that, as well as, uh, you know, the viral video that happened last year of him kind of breaking down at the memorial after, uh, you know, a tough opening round, kind of some perspective on some of the struggles he's had recently, how he's digging himself out of it. Uh, and I'm just some good, good old fashioned golf talk with Billy. I really enjoy, uh, talking with him and appreciate the opinions and whatnot that

he shares in this episode. This episode is brought to you by our friends at tidalist and the new Voki SM 10 wedges, which of course, Mr. Horschel is rocking. He had a great wedge session with Bob Voki recently at the AMEX. He rocks at 46, a 52, a 56. And he rotates between two different sixties, depending on the week. Listen, if you're an amateur golfer and you haven't been fit for wedges,

you are leaving something on the table. I can pretty much guarantee that. We went out and got fit in December and I actually ended up walking away with two different 58 degrees. I have a four degree T grind, which is good for kind of firmer turf and more of, you know, it's good in Australia. It's good for when the Bermuda bakes out down here. The leading edge doesn't want to dig. I also got an eight degree bounce 58, which helps me when it gets a little soppy down here on the Bermuda or just anywhere where it's wet. It's a little extra balance to help prevent that leading edge from digging. Listen, I'm not saying everybody needs two edges to keep in rotation, but I am saying I work directly with a fitter and they got me in something very different

than what I had and it is super helpful when you go online to these websites and you try to see how many different options there are. I'm guessing you're not going to pick the right one. Having a fitter help you through kind of what you're struggling with and get you in the right grind, the right bounce, and the right loft is really, really, really helpful. I cannot say enough great things about it. And you can head to the Titleist YouTube page

to watch the full video with Billy Horschel and Bob Vokey. So go get fit and check out the titleist YouTube page. And for the delay, here is Billy Horschel. Did you have a feeling when you when you yelled over at the ropes at the waste management that you might end up on social media at some point after that to this past weekend? I think I'm shocked that there's only one video of me yelling. Let's just say that I think there is a couple of just is where, you know, I dressed, uh, you know, what I would say the lack of respect from, from a few fans in the crowd, not only myself, but my fellow playing competitors

that week. And so I'm shocked. There's only one video. Let's just say that. Well, well, take us there because, you know, from where I'm sitting, it seems like all right, we, everyone that's watching on television knows it's the, it's the wasted man management Phoenix open, right? It's the biggest party. Like it's, it's billed as that. Everyone knows that it's a totally different environment. It's what people love about it.

Right. But it seemed like the reaction this year was just a little, a lot different from, from a lot of your, from yourself and from a lot of other players, just in how it's kind of built up, uh, you know, maybe over the years. I'm wondering if you could kind of explain and take us into, you know, where things cross the line, what's kind of acceptable, what's not, and how this, you know, kind of moves going forward? Well, I think it last year was sort of on the edge. I felt like it was the first year I came away from it. I was like, man, I felt exhausted just from

having to deal with the crowd a little too much. I felt like the respect for us as, you know, just people trying to do their jobs and compete and trying to win a golf tournament just wasn't there. And it's changed since I started playing it in 2013. I remember watching on TV for so many years and I remember watching golf channel and then doing the reports of the crowd on 16 and the people just had left it a tee and the chance that they would have for the players based off reading their bio. I thought that was really cool. And so I've always been loved playing it. I was always excited to go play, especially my first year in 2013. And I think just from my first year in 2013 to where it's been the last two years, I think it's just it's gone a little bit of it's cross the line.

It's gone above and beyond what I think as players we enjoy. We know it's a different golf tournament. That's why we play it. That's why I play. I love those crowds. I love the energy that they have. I don't mind a little banter back and forth. I've had banter with many a fans through the years there and just not that tournament, other tournaments as well. But I think when you get to the point where you're destructing play, you're purposely yelling in people's back swings, which I haven't had that happen to me or a fellow playin competitor that I can remember, but this was the first year that it happened on numerous occasions from other players. And so I think just a little bit of lack of respect for us as players is I think that's when it's cross the line. Like as I've talked to many of fans and I can tell you an instance on the practice tee this year, I want them to have a good time.

Like that's what the event's about. Come out, have a good time. We know a lot of the fans there don't realize there's a golf tournament going on. They're there for the partying aspect, but when you start, you know, disrupting play and affecting play and going about that way. And also some of the personal comments that, if this is the first year, I've heard through many years, but I've heard more personal shots taken at people I was with this year, because I played with Zach Johnson the first two days, was astonishing.

I mean, it's just amazing to hear this stuff and listen, we all know the alcohol aspect plays a massive part of it. The media aspect has played a part of it as well as what they've toted this event and then you get people who want to be a part of it, be a part of that atmosphere, be a part of the craziness and then they take it to another level. And so it's gone a little bit above and beyond. Um, I just think it needs to be brought back down in not for two. Um, but, uh, listen, it's an event that I love to play and I will continue to play it. Um, I think it just needs to just, just dial it down. It's a not for two. That's all.

And I think it, if I, if I'm here, get right to it seems like, all right, 16th hole, anything goes, right? It's so loud in that hole, doesn't matter. You can yell in the back swing, like nothing, nothing matters in there, but it seems like, you know, when you get outside of that, you get, you know, you're, that's a Coliseum, right? People are shouting down at you, whatever, but you know, you're teeing off on hole, whatever on the front nine and there's somebody's right behind you yelling something at you while

you're hitting or, or, you know, very personal. It's just a different, that's a different, behind you, yelling something at you while you're hitting or, you know, very personal is just a different, that's a different, something you're not necessarily signing up for, right? I think it's a- I mean, I, the six T on Sunday, I teed off in the front nine, so on the sixth hole, my four holes left to play the tournament. And there's some kids, you know, some nice kids,

I mean, they're, they're subs probably in their 20s. And they're chatting back there, they're saying a few things and it's fine. And then one guy goes, Bill, you're gonna hit this in the bunker right. And I turn around, I'm like, that's a effin stupid thing to say, like having some respect here.

And then I proceed to stripe it on the mill fairway. And I turn around, I said, hey, is that effin in the right bunker? Being a smart ass that I am. But it's just that little thing. you know, 16 is not the issue. We get asked about that a lot. 16 is a fun whole. Listen, there's some crazy stuff that goes on in there and it's a lot of white noise.

You don't hear a lot of stuff, but it's, you know, it's carried on that atmosphere. And what happens in 16 has carried on throughout the golf course now. And I think that's just where it's gone a little bit above and beyond for us as players. And, you know, that's just where I think the enjoyment for us playing the event, you know, we, we, we lose it a little bit. Yeah. I don't know how you put the toothpaste back in the tube there. I know it's, it's, well, I know we've, we've spent like 25 years in golf, like trying to

capture other sports fans coming into it. Right. And you get other sports fans that come to an event that's different than other golf tournaments. And it's, you know, this, you know, it's not your stuffy tucked in collared shirt golf tournament. And their thought is like, yeah, I go to a basketball game. I go to a baseball game, I go to football game, and I heckle the other team, right? I, you know, I yell some things at them. That's part of my fan experience. And that just doesn't, uh, that's where I think this, this thing was always destined to kind of converge. And, uh, you know, I'm sure there's stuff they can do with alcohol sales and all that stuff to kind of put a little bit of toothpaste

back in the two, but at the same time is it's really hard to, to have what makes this event special and not have some spillover to it. You know, No, I agree. Listen, you know, I want people to enjoy themselves, and I want people to have a good time. And listen, have we all had probably wanted too many drinks before and gotten a little too loose and said some things in different places we've been at? Sure, it happens.

But obviously this year, I mean, I've never seen so many people that have been absolutely just wasted beyond their means, beyond their minds, wasted, I mean just stumbling around, falling, it was insane this year. And I've read a few of the comments, I don't get on Twitter anymore, but just do my Instagram stuff, you know what they're like, they're saying, you know what you signed up for, you know, if you can't take the heat, don't play it, you know, you're supposed to be heckled, this is what the tournament's all about. And that's wrong, this tournament's not, is about heckling the fans. Yeah, 16 was always been that hole, and it was always been fun. And as I said, it goes back to what I know of watching it on TV

and seeing it be reported on Golf Channel and then experiencing my first few years. The people to the left of the green having fun chance and and because of based off people's bios and everything Or or some stories that they've heard now that's there you know There's not even that group there to the left of 16 anymore And hasn't been for many years But it just carried too far and and you, listen, I understand players get heckled in other sports, but I'm gonna tell you what, more than likely they're not hearing anything

that you say majority of the time. I guarantee you they're not hearing anything on the football field. You may hear a little bit on the basketball court if you're staying, if you're close by, you know, maybe a little bit on the baseball, but those, I mean, it's, it's, it's those, those stadiums, everything, it's more like 16 years don't hear it.

And if you do, it's very faint. But when you're out on the other sides of the golf courses, other places of the course at TPC South Scale, it's quiet. And we're going to hear everything because golf is a quiet sport. It's just the way it is. And like I said, I just would like a little bit of respect brought back for what we're trying to do on the course because it is our job at the end of the day.

And I've said this to a few people in the media. I wish they would find some of these people that are heckling players out in the golf course, like to where it's crossing the line a little bit, figure out what they do, find their name, their job. And then like in three or four months, like get some players like to show up out of the blue and heckle the shit out on at their job while they're trying to do it and see how see what it's like that's trying to perform.

Like, especially like, let's say they're trying to give a meeting or, you know, do a meeting or a speech or a proposal. Let's let's go heckle the crap out of that guy in that. Like that would be funny to me to see something like that happen because I think it would just, you know, it wouldn't be apples apples, but you sort of would get a sense of what it's like. So.

I love that. That could be a good, I think you'd have to do it as like a parody video. Yeah, exactly. But I think it's not dead seriousness. It's just a fun parody kind of thing. It's not like a dead serious kind of thing at all. So I love that. I love that. Well, you know, moving away from the, you know, the not so fun stuff into the really fun stuff, like equity grants and, and getting guys back live, live guys

back on the PGA tour and all the fun stuff that's going on in golf. But I do want to kind of pick your brain on some of these things. You know, we have weekly conversations about all this stuff and anytime we can bring in a tour pro to just, you know, gauge your, you know, there's 200 different minds out there of what their reactions to it. So we all want to get yours on, you know, we got some, some news rolling out. You guys got a memo last week about these equity grants that are coming out for PGA tour enterprises. One, how would you rate kind of your knowledge and awareness of all this thing on a scale of one to 10? Are you heavily involved? Are you, you know, kind of seven, eight, nine, 10 is one. And where do you, where do you kind of net out

and how this is all playing out in terms of, you know, players getting equity in this new venture on the PGA tour? I probably have a scale of one to 10, probably just above a five, maybe a six. I mean, I'm aware of it. I've sort of pulled back a little bit over the last year, just trying to get folks back in my game. Obviously, I haven't played well, so that's number one focus. But I'm always aware of it, just being up to date, knowing enough to be able to obviously talk to you about it.

But to share the information maybe with players or just from our own knowledge at that sake of it. Listen, I think it's really a great deal that we did. I have a great friend in Art of Blank who is part of the SSG group. And so we've had, you know, many conversations over the last few months about what the group wants to do, what they believe they can help the PJ Tour increase the value of, help the players out.

So I think it's a really good deal. When it comes to the equity and distribution, obviously, you know, the defined guidelines of, you know, the four tiers and what they're going to be based off, but there's still some more information to be gathered from there and that's going to be happening over the next 30 to 45 days. Cornfury was part of creating those tiers along with the player directors and the people at the PJ Tour Board to give out the equity shares or create those little four little tiers. So I think it's really good.

You know, listen, we've got, I've said it for a while, I've never thought that we truly own the tour and I was fine with that. I was truly fine with that because I was focused on my golf and playing well and that's what we should do and we don't have the knowledge and the expertise to be able to say what is a really good deal with the current sponsor of Sponsored at PJ Tour event. I mean, I can guarantee you're 99% of the players on the PJ Tour has never asked when a sponsor renews with a tour within about an event. Hey, you know, they know how many years maybe, but how much money, what does that entail?

You know, what are they looking for getting out of that event? You know, what are some of the things that we have to give up? Is that entail? What are they looking for getting out of that event? What are some of the things that we have to give up? Are they going to sponsor any other players? Is that in the deal? Guys aren't asking those deals, because we're more or less focused on what we need to do. And we know the tour is doing the best

they can to provide financial playing opportunities. So I've always thought of us as like a, not a player run tour, but a player involved tour. Like we put our input in and we let the people that we believe, my time is Tim Fincham, Jay Monaghan, the other executives run the tour and I was very happy with that. I had a personal relationship with a lot of the execs there.

Obviously, you know, living here in Panamidra, I see them and I see them more on a personal basis outside you know at golf tournaments. But I understand why players want to be more involved and I have no problem with that and I think this is the perfect way if players truly want to get involved and be true owners of the tour. Now, the things they do and how they give up time and make sacrifices to increase the value of the tour, they're going to have to do these things now. They want to see their equity shares increase. We're going to be given ways that we can increase our equity shares. And these are the things that we're going to have to do to increase the value of the PGA tour, which increases our share of the tour.

So I think it's great. I think this is really good. We're tied to some very successful people in the business world and in the sports world. Listen, a lot of change is still going to be coming. Let's just not even put in the the PIP thing, but just in this deal and the way the tour is going to look, there's still changes to be made over the next handful of years until we see what the PJ Tour is gonna look like for I would say the considerable future a quick break here to check in with our friends at row back

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your first order through the end of this week that's spelled R-H-O-B-A-C-K dot com. 20% off bottoms, QZips, hoodies and more with code NLU. Get ready for the golf season with Roback. Back to Billy Horschel. Do you think it's enough to kind of put a stop to the biggest names leaving towards live? I know Rom leaving and Hatton leaving kind of were, you know, Rom leaving was a shocker in a lot of ways and, you know, losing Hatton was kind of a maybe an underreported on thing that happened to start of this year, especially with all this pending, especially with the PIF involvement potentially coming within the next couple of months and kind of this new SSG rollout. Do you think this is enough to kind of finally put a stop to guys, the biggest names leaving

for live? I would say yes and no. I hope so. But in the day, listen, when it's not going to be dollar to dollar, like if you get an $80 million contract from PIF, you're not going to get $80 million from the PJ Tour equity share. Now, at some point in time, if you perform on the golf course and the PJ Tour evaluation continues, you know, grows, yeah, you're going to get to that number. But when you're getting guaranteed money and they're going to put in your bank

account within the next day or whatever, it's tough. Cause tour pros like cash, right? Like that, that's my thing is like, you know, equity is, and I think we're all still trying to make sense of what this equity means. Is it, you know, equity is valuable. If it's easily can be replaced, you know, easily can be replaced with cash and converted to cash. And I don't know if anybody even knows how that, how that works.

And it is evolved in that, right? I mean, you would maybe know better than I, as least as your guys' understanding of how that's going to work. Is that fair to say no one really knows how that works yet? Yeah. Yeah. Let's just say we're still learning all the details and how it's going to work out. What this does is this allows, I would say this tells the guys that if you play

well, you're going in, if you do the things on the golf course, you're going to be rewarded more than you ever have before. And if you listen, I play the game of golf because I want to my name to be remembered. That's what I've always played the game of golf for. Fortunately enough, early in my career, I won the FedEx Cup. And so I was financially in position that I didn't ever have to worry about money. And I've never been a player to look at what a purse is for an event or how much money I made that week. That's never been me. I played solely to see how great I can be as a player, compare myself with the other best players

in the world, and to put my names on trophies that the legends in the game of golf has done. And that's what I've always wanted to do. I don't fault guys if obviously they have a different goal in life in playing professional golf and just being more of a financial side of it. And guys are going to want to make sure financially they're doing the best they can for themselves. So like I said, at the end of the day, it's what the person wants, but this deal allows guys to feel like financially they're,

are we on a level playing field with Pip? No, but we're not back in the Ice Age anymore, I would say. You play well, you're gonna get financially rewarded and financially you're going to be just fine. And we've been fine for a while now. We've played for a lot of money on the PJ Tour for a long time. And we've had ways to, every cut we make, it's a cut-splaying that goes in the retirement.

FedEx money is a retirement plan. So listen, you play, we always have before PIP came around, if you played 10 years on the PJ Tour, 10 consecutive years, you had a really good retirement plan that you were going to see at the end of the day, that was going to set you and refine for the rest of your life. So I said, I mean, I'm beating a, I'm a broken record over here, but this just allows us to be somewhat on a closer playing field with PIF and allows guys that, you know, have always dreamed about playing on a PJ Tour, staying on the PJ Tour and getting financially rewarded.

And that's where the logic you just used there is kind of what my guiding light has been through all of this of like, and again, I'm not in this scenario, so it's easy for me to say, but if you have tens of millions of dollars and in certain cases, some guys have hundreds of millions of dollars, like what is 10, 30, 40, 50 million more mean to you? Right. At a certain point, it's, it's, it's not everybody wants more money, but at the same time it's like you, you didn't pick up a club when you were a kid because you, you know, thought you were worth 150 million instead of a hundred million. It's just, but at the same time I've had conversations with guys that are like, Hey, guys, there

are plenty well off, but Hey, like I am a better player than Insert, I don't know. I'll just use Taylor. Gooch's like I outperformed Taylor Gooch last year on the golf course And he made a lot more money than me and that is hard to swallow, right? There's I don't know if you call that envy as much as it is just there's just this Upsetted apple cart in in the golf world of like there's you know, somebody else is getting rewarded much better financially than I am Despite me performing better, that kind of can drive some of this decision-making. I think that's the, if I was to try to find the root of how this has all happened, that's where I would go to.

I don't know if you have any insight on that. No, you're right. And listen, Taylor Gutch is pretty cool to see him win $47 million in 18 months. I mean, if you, I mean, as a person, like I think that's awesome. And I'm excited for the guy. Like he struggled for a while, got on the PJ Tour,

was a decent PJ Tour player. And then he was starting to find his footing and had a very promising, you know, I would say, say second half, but it was 30, 31. So he still had a lot of great years left to play in the PJ Tour and he got opportunity or somehow had opportunity to go to live and he's created nearly 50 million dollars in earnings in 18 months and that's exciting for him. But if you're more worried about like I listen it's human

nature to look at what someone else has and you don't have and we all get caught up in that but if you get all get caught up in that. But if you get too much caught up in that, you forget about what you have and how great your life is. Like I grew up in Grant, Florida. If you know where Grant, Florida is, that's pretty unbelievable. But very low middle-class,

neither of my parents had college degrees. My mom went back to college when she was in her 50s to get a degree so she can move up within her company. There's several times that one of my parents was out of a job for a few months. We didn't have money readily available to us and no one in our family did. I live a life now that I say I dreamed about when I grew up, but I don't think I could even imagine the life I live now. So I think as people, and I know golfers can look at, we're talking about golf and golf,

we can look at what someone else has that we don't have, but it's the same thing in life. If you're looking at what someone else has that you don't have, you're missing what makes your life so special. For me, I'm happy with what I've got. I want to improve on it. There's no doubt about it. But I'm not looking at John Rom and saying, man, he got $300 million.

Like, really? No. Yeah, I'm like, yeah, but I'm excited. I'm happy that he got paid. I'm not trying to be envious of anyone because then it puts a damp on your lifestyle. You know, you can't look at what you have and enjoy what you have and and and be present in the world that you live in and at that time. On a different note from this, let's let's go to a world where things come back together, which I'm going to speak to you as a golf fan that's kind of rooting for the best competitive golf product is where I come from on all this stuff. You know, Roy McElroy has had comments. He thinks the live guys, you know, should be able to come back and play once a deal with PIF is struck. Jordan, Scotty, JT maybe have a different stance on this. I'm wondering if specifically the way I view it, the PJ tour equity, the equity

that's come from this is a payday of some kind for the PJ tour players, right? Obviously, we just talked about all the money that the PIF guy or the live guys have made. This is a, a, I wouldn't call it an equalization, but Hey, there's a payday here for people that have stayed, right? I know a lot of feelings have been hurt lawsuits. Uh, not everything has been done well. It is, uh, it has been a very ungraceful exit for a lot of people. But if I'm looking at the competitive golf scene, I think it is best for a lot of tournaments, players, championship, maybe jumping out the most of like Dustin Johnson and Cam Smith are there playing in that tournament. Right.

So what's your stance in a world where this all comes back together on the process for the guys that want to come back and play the PGA tour, because that's a separate conversation, but getting live guys back into PGA tour events. How does that look in your mind? Yeah. Listen, I think, well, you said players championship and that's the first thing that comes on mind. I believe it's the fifth major. I believe it's been the fifth major for a long time.

And if all the other majors are allowing the guys that are qualified to be able to play then I think we should be the same way. Um, at the same time, I understand it's run by the PGA tour and I will, it's now I'm going to contradict myself a little bit. I want to play against the best players all the time. And I want to see where my game stacks up against theirs as much as possible. And at the same time, I think there's consequences

for decisions that are made. Do I believe guys should be able to come back to the PJ Tour? Yes. If we're trying to create the best product possible and increase our valuation on the PJ Tourer, we need the best players on the PJ Tourer. And I've said that from day one. But at the same time, I do believe there are consequences

for decisions that have always been made. That's just the way things are in life. And I do believe there needs to be some consequences for decision these guys made. That's just the way things are in life. And I do believe there needs to be some consequences for the decision these guys made. Now, I'm not anywhere close to some of the hardline guys on what some of these guys want the consequences to be. But I believe there should be some repercussions for the decision they made. Some of them left early and they made some outstanding comments and false statements. Some of them were part of a lawsuit and talking with some of them, they're like,

well, we're not suing you, we're suing the PGA tour. And my aspect is like, I am the PGA tour, just like 200 other members, just like the almost, I don't know, hundreds of plus employees. You may be suing the umbrella, the logo, but you're suing us as well. And, you know, they didn't follow the rules. And that's why I was so, the stance I took in in 22 was, there is our rules in place. And they didn't get the releases that they thought they deserved. But the PJ Tour, it was their prerogative in allowing them to be released or not. And they didn't get the releases that they thought they deserved But the PJ Tour it was their prerogative and allowing them to be released or not and they didn't and so they got suspended for it

I'm I've been a rule follower my entire life. I mean I follow the rules to the tee except the speed limit That's a you know, I break the speed limit every day. I get in my car Buy a long shot, but you know, that shot. But that's where my stance came in, is that not because they were going to compete against another tour, because I think competitions is a form of way of improvement. If you've got better competition or there's another, someone else out there that you gotta compete against,

you're gonna have to work hard to make sure that you continue to be the best. And I said that in all my interviews, but they didn't follow the rules. And so that's why I was where I took my stance. And so that's why I still am where my stance is like, there's just got to be a little bit of a consequence and I don't know what that consequence is. Um, and I'll think it should be a long drawn out thing.

I think it should be something very straightforward, very simple, you know, this and that and, and, and be done and, and and be done and be very quick about it in my opinion so that we get these players back on a tour that increases our valuation, increases our product, makes it the best product. My entire stance with the PJ Tour for so many years now is we have to make our product better. And I've said it for a decade to everyone at the executives at the PJ Tour for so many years, we have to always think about how we can make our product better. And I've said it for a decade to everyone at the executives at the PJ Tour for so many years, we have to always think about how we can make our product better.

We make our product better than that should allow us to increase termites, you know, purses, you know, bringing more money, hopefully increase the tour. I mean, the fan viewership, which drives a lot of, you know, dollar signs, as we all know. So I want to clarify part of this with you because I think we're Aligned on this but I would say look my stance guys that left for live should not be able to cherry pick and and play PJ Torvence as it stands now, right? But I think my question was more in line with in a world where these two leagues or Pif and PJ Torv Whatever are coming to an agreement for how to get this back together

I think a lot of that stuff would go out the window, right? Like the consequences for their actions, I think are in there. There's these two leagues are separate things. But if it comes under one kind of umbrella, the path to getting everyone back together be, it should be faster, right? That's kind of where I agree. I do not think guys should have been able to come back and I do think they should have been suspended.

That was very clear. Like those were the rules and that's how it should be. But I think I'm guessing we're gonna be playing under a new set of rules if and when this thing does come back together. And I just I don't know what Scotty and JT and Jordan are really referring to when when they, you know, I don't get how and again, maybe I'm just I'm dreaming of this and what, I don't see these two leagues like competing with each other anymore. Once a deal is struck, I think they're going to have to start swimming in kind of, I don't want to say concurrent, you know, kind of parallel lanes of some kind. There's going to have to be some weaving. If these both these leagues are still going to exist at some point, they have to compliment

each other and not compete with each other. And I don't know, maybe I'm just dreaming of a rosier situation that's actually going to play out, but I think things are going to change. I don't know. I don't disagree with you. I mean, listen, let me just say this. I think, you know, John Henry Arthur Blank, Steve Cohen, I don't think these guys, I don't think they're not afraid of competition. Let me just say that for a fact. But they're putting in $3 billion into the PJ Tour. Obviously, a billion and a half is an equity and a billion and a half is into other things. Some of that's going to be coming into the PJ Tour in different

ways and other things that they're going to be doing is increasing the valuation of the PJ Tour. And that's buying assets, you know that will increase in value But you don't want to go against something that could hurt your valuation You know grow You could that could hurt your piggy bank grow. So yeah, I think there I believe there will be a deal done and I believe When that deal gets done somehow We've got to figure out how does live and the PGA tour work, their tour, what they have. And can we weave it into our product?

Is it something that's more of a specialized thing that we do at a different time of the year? Or do we just maybe say, hey, a couple years from now, this product really hasn't taken off? It seems like they think it's a really good product, but the numbers just don't say it. We're just going to disband that and maybe create something completely entirely new.

I don't know. But I do believe that if a deal gets done somehow it's going to be intertwined and those guys will be back on the PJ Tour at some point in time and you know, you know, is it where You know, you're just not able you can't play You know, maybe you're not able to play some of the bigger events on the PJ Tour for X amount of months You gotta go play, just throwing out nothing bad against Puerto Rico. I played Puerto Rico in my early years on the tour, but you got to go play a Puerto Rico or something like that. Like I said, I'm a broken record when I say this. I want to play against the best players in the world. I do believe if

a deal struck, I do believe we will see them on the PJ Tour again at some time, but I do believe if a deal struck, I do believe we will see them on the PGA tour again at some time, but I do believe there just needs to be a little bit of a consequence for that. And that's my stance. Now, if the, if what the tour decides and the player director is on the board and what pit decides and there is no consequence, am I going to be heard about that? No, you know, listen, I said, I go back to, I got to focus on what I got to do and not worry always about everybody else. That's where if you look, if you ask me, like if you zoomed in on like this section right here, should they just be able to come out and play right away

despite breaking the rules? It's like, no, well, of course they shouldn't. But if you zoom out just a little bit, it's like, does it make sense if we don't have all the best players playing there? No, that, that, that rules out. That rules the day for me as a golf fan again. Yeah. And I, and I, and I get it. I mean, listen, we, you know, there's many different factors in play here. You got what the players want. You got what now what our PE wants.

And, um, and then now you got what the fans want. And you got to weigh all those scenarios and listen, the fans play a big part into, you know, what we do, you know, people will say, well, if there's no fans and there's no PJ Tour, listen, there will still be a PJ Tour. We just want to be playing for a lot of money, simple as that. They play a massive role in it. The best product, as I said, I go back to what's the best product. The thing the tour needs to do is create the best product for the PGA Tour. For the considerable years to come on the PGA Tour, I've said that for a decade straight. To continue to push and try to make improvements is the only way things get better

and the only way things grow in my opinion. Now, I totally agree. And I was playing and asked that was exactly where I wanted to go next on this is, you know, fans want to see the entertainment value up in golf. We want more buy in from players on doing stuff like wearing a microphone during a round, things like that. And you've always, you know, you've always been great with your time whenever asked of you, including this podcast, which you're doing with your free time. But talk to me about the challenges that come with this, right? I mean, how do you, you guys are independent contractors and, and, and always have been NFL

players have a union and collective bargaining, you know, with the ownership group, and that comes with stipulations they put on the players to say, Hey, we're miking you up and we're going to do sounds of the game and we're going to do it for 25 years. And, and there's just, there's a different process for putting that in place, entertainment from an entertainment perspective and other leagues. But now this is that kind of coming into golf with a with a private equity group and an ownership group in here to say, you know, do you see the players losing a little bit of control to say no to certain things and say or do

you get a sense that players are going to be more more encouraged to buy into some of some things that might up the entertainment value in golf, even if it does give up some control that you've used you're used to having over many years in your life as an independent contractor. Yeah I think you're right you know like I said talking with Arthur Arthablank who's been a really good friend of mine for a while now and I think when other players you know and I do believe John Henry, Steve Owen, Arthur Blank, those guys are the people that are working with those, you know, the people that they have that come out to a tour. They will

explain to the PJ Tour the way things work in other sports to the PJ Tour players, the way things work in other sports, and why when player X, you know, decides to actually, you know, instead of sitting out again, he has to play the game, it increases the value in the shares for everyone else in the NFL or the Major League Baseball or NBA, whatever it may be, you know, they will have, they will show them, if you do these things, you know, this will increase our, you know, our share, this will increase our profits, which is increase your shares. And it's different. Listen, it's gonna be completely different.

Some guys aren't gonna be open to it and some guys will. But I think we need the more, I said this for a while, wow, no, the more we can relate to our fans. And I think golf does a really good job of that because compared to other sports, no one's Patrick Mahomes sitting in their couch at home You know, they can't go with the game. Yeah, you know, but in golf you can go play TPC Just like I do and play from the same tease

But you're not gonna probably hit the same shots I do but you can have that connection there You can have you can play the same clubs that I play From my sponsor tireireList or play my TireList golf ball, whatever it may be, where my Ralph Lauren golf clothes, whatever it may be, there's a connection there, a closer connection there than any other sport. But I think that some of the stuff we've seen with players being mic'd up and doing some interviews is great. I'm not afraid of being mic'd up the entire round. I've just, you know, there's certain things that are said that won't be aired, but are still heard within the truck

and everything that you sort of just like, you know, it, you know, like, maybe that's obviously recorded and that got out, you know, you know, it may not be a great look, you know, or we're making jokes or talking about something, you know, you know, anything that anybody would talk about with their buddies at home. Nothing, you know, nothing X-rated anything along those lines. Let me just put that out there.

But I think, you know, we can do more things to enhance our coverage, our broadcasts, what we give off as players. I don't have, you know, there's times where I want people. I don't mind people coming in and getting close and seeing what we do. And there's times where I'm like, hey, listen, I'm really like in a grind mode here. Can you guys just sort of give me a few, you know, some space here, which, you know, people, you know, the media and everyone else been really, they wouldn't have an issue with at all. So, and they get that. But I do think we need,

we're going to have to make changes as players, as I've said earlier, we're going to have to make changes as players to, to increase the value of the PJ Tour, to make our product better. And so, some guys are going to be for it, and some guys are going to be for it and some guys are going to be against it, but we have to come together as a whole to really, you know, if people want to see their equity share increase and some of these guys are really going to want to see their equity share increase, then changes, something they're going to have to do things differently to see that. Got me encouraged, man. I'm starting to feel a little hope.

I'm sure the golf roll will never let me down for feeling a little bit of hope. I'll always give you hope. Trust me. I'm super optimistic on a lot of things. There's days I may be a little down on certain things, but I'm a very positive guy, as you know, and I'm always looking for the positive things at the tunnel. And so, I think there's, listen, I've said it, you know, 18 months ago and I'm still on this timeline. 18 months ago, I said we're five years away from seeing what, you know, the game of golf is going to look like

for, you know, the, for a future, you know, we're, you know, 18 months in. So we got another three and a half years roughly until we sort of see what this all plays out to be. But I think this is going to be really great for the game of golf I believe a world tour needs to be created. I think we were missing a massive you know chance to you know just

Take the PJ Tour talent to other countries and I know we've played him. I played in Malaysia and I know I played in South Korea and Japan and China. It was really cool to be able to go to those places where people have watched us on TV and now we're going into their country and they're able to go sort of see us talk to us, shake our hands or touch us, take pictures with us. Like a very, a more personable feeling instead of just through the TV and being able to play on DP World Tour over the last four years I've enjoyed it a lot I love going over there the fans are unbelievable and supportive of myself and all the other pj2 players that come over there so I

think a world tour needs to be created and I've said this for like a while now, a world tour doesn't need to be created because I think that's the best way to go about it. Yeah, there's a lot of, you know, we end up, we end the like Scottish open British open stretch and I'm like, well, why is there not more golf played there? Then you go see Australian open golf. That tournament has fallen off through the, you know, the, you know, fall season and all this Again, we're reimagining things like we can we can get creative and how this all comes together Obviously, there's appetite for these things. How does it make all financial sense in the grand plan is something?

I don't nobody's really been able to crack to this point in golf And you know it's tough because on the PJ Tour We're so financially rewarded for what we do and so there's really no need to go play these other tournaments around the world when we make a nice living on the PJ Tour. But I think when I look at it, my college coach told me, buddy Alexander told me,

if you want to be a world class player, you have to go play around the world and you have to win on countries and places that are completely different. You have to get outside your comfort zone. And then when I think about the game of golf, like I love the game of golf. I mean, I can go on, you know, a tangent for why I think the game of golf is so great. But I want to see the game of golf grow. And by going to play in Ireland and at Wentworth and in France and in Germany and all

these several other places I've played over the years like just being able to give back to the game of golf like it's not grow like I don't I don't call it grow the game of golf It's like I give back to the game of golf like for what has given me and if it means that the game of golf is growing for Me going to play in these other countries and do other things like that's that's awesome But it's more about giving back to the game that that's given me so much. Yeah. It's engaging with it.

You know, it's engaging with the hardcore fans and things like more than just trying to get new fans, it's engaging with the people that care about it greatly. But onto, onto your golf here. If I'm looking at this, right? If I have had the timeline right here, you, you, uh, June 2022, you win the Memorial Tour tournament by four strokes. June 2023, uh, you opened the first round within 84 and you are in tears talking about it to, to the media after the round. Take us there. Take us to that, to that journey

and how you ended up there and what had, what unfolded there. Yeah. You know, it's, uh, it's nothing. Nothing captures golf better than that. You win by four one year and you're in tears shooting 84 the next year like that is it. It's the game of golf. It is not. I mean, it's so crazy. You know, it was weird. I come off 22 having a really good year. Win Memorial, make a presence cup team. I just missed cracking the top 10. Something I, a goal line cracked the top 10, top five. And if one day, low and behold, I get the number one, like that's a goal.

As I am, I'm a perfectionist and I want to get better. I'm always trying to get better. Todd Anderson and myself, we were just looking at some things that, we didn't swing it very good at the end of 22. And so we were just trying to make some improvements and we sort of went back to something that we tried to do a few years ago. And we felt like we were just in a better position

to do it now physically and where the body is. And I had a better understanding of it. And so for six weeks at home, it was really good. And I went out to Hawaii the first two weeks and it wasn't so great. And I came back home and worked with TA for a couple of weeks and went out to Phoenix and LA and it wasn't really, it just didn't chance her over.

And so then we decide to sort of drop in and go back to some stuff that we, what what we were doing before stuff that we've always done But some of stuff that we tried to make improvements on we you know with the new stuff actually transferred over to the old stuff Which I actually was actually a really good thing And so I felt like I was doing some right things well, but the game the shots just still weren't turned out the way I wanted them to You know make a cut feel I get some, and then I would miss a cut next week, which is so weird because my stats guy, and we'll tell you, I think I'm around like 85% cut, making a cut in my career, close to 85% to 90%.

So make a cut, miss a cut, make a cut, miss a cut was so weird. And then I go to Memorial, and what was before Memorial? Colonial. Yeah, I felt like Colonial wasn't too bad, but like, I played halfway to decent at PGA, just a couple of bad shots, just didn't make anything.

Go to Colonial, play okay at Colonial, felt like I was going the right direction. You know, have a decent practice week at Memorial, and then 84, slapping the face. I mean, gut punch. Defending champ, looking forward to trying to play well and having another chance to win. And I mean, it was just, it was tough.

And as I had said in that interview afterwards, I told my team, like confidence-wise, I just wasn't, it wasn't really high. I just didn't think, you know, the game didn't feel good, nothing felt great, you know, I just had a very, you know, one of the lowest confidence points of my career, actually the lowest confidence point in my career, and it showed playing a course like Memorial. Wanting to, you know, have a good showing after the Finna tournament or winning the tournament the year before, just sort of all came to a head.

And I didn't have anything in my head about sharing this and just happened, a question got asked to me and I just sort of just emotionally couldn't handle what I was wanting to say because I knew if I was gonna start just crying, just because of where I was wanting to say because I knew I was gonna start just crying Just because of you know where I was emotionally like I just I just didn't have it and it sucks being on a public stage and not having it and so from there actually was actually one of those things that Turned in to be a really good thing obviously this all the the people that reached out to me were as impressive, but I felt like after sharing that, and it's funny because I

shared it with my wife and my family, I shared it with my team. I thought that would sort of, you know, get it off my chest, but it wasn't until sharing it with a public that I got it off my chest. I was like, wow, feel so much more at ease now. And then from there, the game has started to slowly trend into a better form still, still just a little bit off, but I'm in a lot better place than I was at Memorial. A lot better place I was a year ago, and I feel like I'm really close to playing some really good golf. And so, yeah, I mean, it's funny what this game of golf does to you. Can I, the takeaway I had from that though, that I think that if I'm like a

junior golfer watching that, if, if I have the phrase, right, if I remember, right, you said something like, as crazy as it sounds, I'm not that far off. Right. And I just remember like, I remember you shot even the next day, right? I mean, it was kind of a, yeah, I was doing the part, doing the part with like five to play. And I think I made triple on number five, par five, and or something like that. And so, yeah, yeah. But that, that was just like that.

I remembered that and I just, that was, I thought that was a really cool part of like, it's crazy. It sounds like I'm really not that far off. And I think I'm kind of fascinated by the battle of trying to get better, trying to improve, yet risking what got you there and the kind of what momentum you may have there. I'm wondering, was there any lesson kind of learned in any of that for you?

I mean, I know it, you kind of can't know what's around the corner when you, when you try to make some changes or Tinker or whatnot, but, you know, it could have led to fantastic play for all you know. I'm just curious, looking back on it, if there's lessons learned for that for maybe young golfers or even for yourself? Yeah, I think I'm never afraid to try and get better. I never have been. But I think I've always tried to make calculated decisions. And when we at the end of 22, we made a calculated decision. We thought about it. We looked at, you know, why we couldn't do it before, why we thought about it, we looked at why we couldn't do it before, why we thought we could do it now. And I think if I didn't see some success before, went on to a why, I probably would have said,

okay, this isn't working. If I wouldn't see it within the first week or two of making some changes, I know if it's going to work or not. I can feel it, I can see some of the shots, see some things that are different, but I saw some really good stuff right away. But yeah, I think for me I would say you can't be afraid of trying to get better. And I felt like if I stayed where I was, and there could have been some other things I could have done to get better, but I felt like there was still my new, it wouldn't play, it wouldn't have had that big of a drastic

you know, change or matter that much. And I was trying to get better, I was trying to get to where I wanted to be, I wanted to win majors, I wanted to get into the top 10 in the world, I wanted to try and one day be the one player in the world. Those are the goals. Those are goals. Now, whether I achieve them or not, I don't know. And people can criticize all they want.

And I've been criticized for having these lavish goals and dreams. But I mean, you've got to have those in life, right? I mean, if you don't, then what are you doing, in my opinion? For me, I've always just tried to make calculated decisions about how to get better. And I insult my team and we make the decisions and we just see if it works. And there's been decisions that have not worked and there's been decisions that have

worked on it and been great. And so I think you, as a junior golfer, I would say, don't ever be afraid to trying it better in the game of golf. Always try to improve and make, you know, I'm not saying make changes, but doesn't mean you have to make changes to your game. Maybe it makes changes to how you practice. Maybe it makes changes to how you prep for a tournament or the way you think or some other things.

It doesn't have to be a technical change at all. But you know, just make sure you try to assess or assess the risk and everything that you're ready about to do before you make some of these changes. And but at the same time, don't be afraid to scrap it if you don't see the results that you're trying to see. That's the longer I do this, the more I am amazed at guys that have been out on tour for really long periods of time. I always use Matt Kutcher as the example of like, I mean, for a lot of

listeners, if you go play with five, six, seven, eight corn fairy guys, and that you'll be amazed, you will be absolutely amazed at their golf talent. And then you think of like, yeah, some of these dudes beat them very consistently every single year for like decades. That that's the part that, you know, and that's the part that may, you know, maybe potentially overwhelming for guys is like, yeah, if you do, you took a little step back there for a period of time and like you get lapped really quickly in terms of like just how good the golf is at the very top level.

It is, it's, it's, I'm curious, you're 37. You're not old because you're the same age as me. I am older on the PGA too. No, we're not. We're not. I know we're not old, but PGA two age, I'm old. Well, that's what, how is a pro golf career different in your late thirties than it was in your late twenties? Well, geez, I tell people this, I said, I think, you know,

the people that know me, like I spend a lot of time on my game of golf like I spend I'm always trying to bet I'm always working hard but now at 37 I have three kids at 9 6 and 5 you know they take up you know time as well I have to be a good father I want to be a good father I want to be at their sporting events I want to see their competitions and so the time I spend with my family takes time away from my golf. So I have to practice differently. I have to practice smarter. I have to make sure I'm being more efficient with my time. You know, before I kids, I could, you know, spend sun up the sundown practicing. And that's what

I always did, you know, when I was in high school and in college and early in my pro career, I would spend some up to sundown practicing. And Jim, sun up, sundown practice. And now I just don't have that time. But that doesn't mean I'm not getting less out of my practice than I was sun up, sundown. I'm more efficient with my time. I'm probably practicing better. So you know, there's other challenges at 37. You know, I've got sponsors,

just like other players, but you know, there's sponsors requirements. There's other requirements that, you know, take up, you know, the time thing. So there's less time now than I would say probably a decade ago for me to spend on my game. So I have to be very efficient and very calculated with with how I go about it. So Yeah, I mean listen I feel more ace and pains than I did when I was in at 27, you know the average age of the PJ Tour I think is 28 now when I came out at 22 on the PJ Tour the average age or I came out got my car at 22 23 is my first year was like 33 or 34.

So you're thinking of 15 year span, the average age has dropped almost five or six years. I mean, that's insane to think about it. The kids that are coming out now are ready to compete on the PGA Tour. They've got better instruction, better fitness, just the way there's so much statistical data of how to play it off course, you know, the right things to do, the wrong things to do. The one aspect that I still have over a lot of young

kids is I've played these courses for 15 years now. So I know how they play. I know where the pin locations are. I know when the wind's coming from a certain direction and where this pin location is, where I can miss it and get it up and down. You know, I love the game of golf. I love playing the PJ Tour and at 37 I still feel there's still, the best is still yet to come for me. But as I've said to Tour, you know, 10 years ago or eight years ago. And I tell people now with the financial side of the game of golf, I think you're going to see more players probably be comparable to other athletes and, and other sports where they may only play 15, 20 years. Yeah. We may play five or seven more years than what some of the star players do,

or the, or the players in other sports league do. But you may see guys, once they get to early forts maybe mid 40s they may say hey listen I'm done you know I played 20 years on the PJ Tour I've got a family now financially I'm good I still have the game of golf but you know at the level where my game is and what I'm used to playing I could just not there it's tougher for me to to compete. So many different other scenarios, but I do believe you may see over the next 20 years and it may start in the next five or 10 years, guys once again to early mid 40s say, hey,

listen, I'm done. I want to go spend time with my family. I want to spend time with my kids. There's other things in life that are more important than the game of golf sometimes. So it all changes and evolves. All right, man. Well, I, uh, we greatly appreciate an hour of your time as always, Billy. I know we got to do this more often these check-ins.

Yeah. It's always, always, always like talking golf with you. And we do got to get out and play some golf. We lived down the street. Yeah, we know. We know. We know. We, we still have it done that.

We got to make that work. Yeah. Oh, so anyways, appreciate it, man. Best of luck with the remainder of the season. And I'm sure we'll, we'll be seeing you soon. Awesome. Thanks, Ollie it man. Best of luck with the remainder of the season and I'm sure we'll be seeing you soon. Awesome. Better than most.