No Laying Up - Golf Podcast - NLU Podcast, Episode 797: Daniel Berger

Episode Date: February 28, 2024

Daniel Berger stops by to talk with Soly about his back injury and the road back to reclaiming his physical health and his place in the competitive golf landscape. We also cover his experiences in team competitions, playing money games with tour pros as a high school aged kid, his mental approach to golf and his injury rehab, the changes on tour while he was away and a ton more. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

The right club today. That's better than most. That is better than most. Better than most. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to the no laying up podcast. So here got an interview coming shortly with our guy Daniel Berger, maybe the forgotten man in men's professional golf. D.B. Straight Vibein is back playing competitively. He's been away for a long time.

In case you don't know about his injury history, what he's been up to. We talk about all of that. And it's been kind of fun to time case. You don't know about his injury history. What he's been up to we talk about all that And it's it's been kind of fun to just reflect on what he was doing, but prior to being injured I don't know if I could have named off the top of my head that Daniel burger was the top 20 player in the world before He got hurt and I do feel like people have forgotten about him And I think he's he's ready to come back and play a little bit of golf This episode is brought to you by our friends at row back active where you all know rowback best fit best feel we cannot go anywhere without seeing that subtle dog logo. I don't need to tell you what I've got on. You know, I've got a rowback hoodie on my daughter. Absolutely loves these things.

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a classic look. The performance Patrick is soft, makes them very comfortable. They work on and off the golf course. And if you haven't already time to load up on some row back both for yourself and for others code NLU at rowback.com for generous 20% off your first order through the end of this week. That's our HOback.com. 20% off bottoms, Q-zips, hoodies and more with code NLU. Get ready for the golf season with Roeback. Thoughting for the delay here is Daniel Berger. All right, you've had a lot of time off, but from what I'm hearing, I'm afraid to ask this next question because I don't think it's the answer I'm going to be looking for. But how much time has have you spent on the boat in the last year

and a half? Yeah, it's funny. I felt like a lot of people asked me that question. I have not done any boating for a while because it just wasn't that comfortable to go on the boat for the body, you know, bouncing up and down. So it was one of the few things that really gave me joy in life that was taken away from me, but now I'm good. So now I'm able to do what I love to do.

I'm glad I didn't know this the whole time you were hurt because I just kept picturing. I'm like, dude, he's probably doing fine. He's probably out on the boat like every day. He's probably not hating this at all, but maybe take golf and boating away from you. What were you doing with all your time off? A lot of rehab, a lot of sitting around. I thought to myself, like, what am I going to do? I can't play golf. What am I going to do? I was like, maybe I'll like learn a second language.

So I like downloaded the Babel app and like spent like five minutes on it. I was like, this is not for me either. So like, I did not do a lot. I'm not going to lie. Well, so what did you do though? I mean, you play video games. I mean, I, because I listened to an episode, a podcast you did where you had, you were coming off a recent injury. This was several years ago and you were talking about how like, you thought you didn't love golf that much. And then that, that time off really showed

you that you do love it. Now this was a much more extended time off from it, from any other previous injury you've had. Yeah. What I did was I had this like anti gravity chair that I put in front of my TV and I just watched cooking channel shows and literally, I mean, it was like, it was brutal. Like, you know how it's hard to pass like 15 hours a day doing nothing So I wouldn't I wouldn't wish it upon anybody So what for the the boring part getting this out of the way for those that aren't familiar you you know You recently returned to the PGA tour you your last start prior to that was the US Open in 2022

You took a lot of time off with a back injury. Can you kind of detail? you know kind of what happened with your back and what you've been kind of going through over the last year and a half to get ready to get back out on the golf course? Yeah, basically what happened is I played the Ryder Cup and I took three months off after the Ryder Cup because I was just kind of tired of golf. I was like exhausted from the grind and I had a long year and a half before that. And basically probably did the least amount in the gym, the least amount of golf, the least

amount of walking, kind of just totally stopped golfing for like three months. Then I came back, I think it was Hawaii, just my body felt weird. It didn't feel like normal. I had some tightness in my back, but I was fine. Like it didn't hurt me or anything. And then I got to San Diego a couple of weeks later and I remember like hitting balls on the range. And I was like, oh my God, like I can't even like swing the club.

Just kind of the athlete in me was like, you know, we're just going to keep playing. We're not going to stop. I finished that tournament and like I couldn't bend over. I couldn't sit down and I was never had any back pain ever in my life. That was the point where I was like, oh, shit, this is a problem. You know, like this is not normal. This is not your everyday tightness. This is like something more serious than that. And I took a couple of weeks off. It got a little bit better, but it wasn't really making that full recovery that I was hoping for.

And I was going to tournaments doing like a quarter of the practice and a quarter of the preparation that I was used to doing. And I was still competing like, you know, I almost won the Honda and, you know, I had some good finishes here and there, but I was like, this is just not, this is not healthy from like an everyday lifestyle. Like I can't do the things that I want to do and I don't feel good when I get up in the morning. So that was kind of the point around that US Open time where I was just like, this is, this is not going to work for me. So took some time away, kind of struggled to get a diagnosis

at first. I think now that I've gone through it, you know, the back is a complicated thing. It's not, sometimes it can be cut and dry, but sometimes it's not necessarily. And so kind of bounced around some different opinions early on. And then finally went to see this guy, Dr. McGill in Canada. And he really gave me a solid diagnosis, really gave me a plan, kind of changed the team that I had around me, got a new strength and condition coach that really put me on a specific program to really get back to golf. And we kind of just micro progressed out of it. And it started with just like three basic exercises

every single day. And from there we built on it and eventually got back to fully lifting again and doing the stuff that I used to do beforehand. And there's just some stuff I stay away from. There's some things I don't do, but overall, I'm 100% now. I feel perfect. That's good.

Because in reading about it, it doesn't seem like somebody's out for a while. They go get a procedure and it's like, hey, I'm going to be out six to eight months. I'm going to be out this period. I'm going to be out this. But it seemed like there was a ton of trial and error in there, right? You're summarizing that kind of briefly as to what that's been like. But you didn't know that when you were going to be coming back or because you opted not for any surgery, surgery routes. Like how did you, what was that whole process like of, this is what's, I mean, this is what I appreciate about what you guys do is baseball teams, like they have trainers that, you know, are looking out for, for you. But like as But like as a golfer, you're in charge of your own decisions on this front. So I found that kind of decision you had to make pretty fascinating.

Yeah. I think, I mean, you hear a lot of the stories and guys coming back too early and, uh, and getting hurt again or not feeling like they were able to do what they want to do to prepare. And that was kind of my goal. I was like, listen, I'm not going to come back and play golf till I can go out there and prepare to a hundred% and do everything that I need to do. And if I need to hit 300 balls, I can hit 300 balls. And if I need to walk 36 holes in a day, I can walk 36 holes in a day. And that just was a period of time that it took to get to that stage where I felt like I was good to go. And yeah, I mean, you look at some of these other guys, I don't know exactly what they've gone through, but they have surgery or multiple surgeries.

And then like four months later, they're playing golf. And I'm just like, wow, that's impressive because I didn't even have surgery. And it took me 15 months to get back to where I felt good enough to play. But I guess everything is kind of case to case. And yeah, it's just you have to listen to your body and you have to, you know, trust it. I think pain is there for

a reason it's telling you something. And I think the athlete in me just says power through, go ahead, don't, you know, you know, it's going to be okay. But then you get to a point where you kind of cross the threshold of okay, and you're like, oh shit, something's wrong. And so that was tough for me because like I said, unless I'm to the point where like I physically cannot move, I just find a way to compensate and just get the ball in the hole.

And that's what I did for a little while. And so got to the point where I was just like, this is not doable anymore. And that's where I decided to really little while. And so got to the point where I was just like, this is not doable anymore. And that's where I decided to really step away and get back to feeling 100%. Everyone, I mean, it feels like everyone at some point deals with back issues, right, especially golfers, but I mean, it just affects your everyday life. That's the part that, you know, is, is just puts I got back stuff going on. And I've had it for several months now and it just puts me in a bad mood.

Like you can't move around the same. And it just like, it's just debilitating man. And it just, it's like, seems like the hardest thing to cure. I'm, uh, I'm not comparing what I've, what I'm going through with what you've gone through, but man, it just, just kind of deflates you. Yeah. No, a hundred percent. I think back pain, like after going through this, I've got a lot of perspective on it.

I think like everyone has some point in their life where their back bothers them. And it's like it's more common than the flu, you know, like everyone has some period where they're dealing with something, but yeah, it's really just about like managing it, right? And like doing the things that you need to do in order to be able to play. And like the level of professionalism,

I would say that I bring to my game now is, is handful to what it was before because, you know, you don't want to go down that route that you experienced before. And so you have to really stay on top of things, but I'm not a guy that's, uh, that's ever going to complain about having to do more. You know, like I'm so lucky to be able to play this game for a living. And if you told me I had to do 10 times what I'm doing right now, I would still do it. So it's it's honestly easy to just go ahead and, you know, be the best version

of yourself as cliche as that sounds. What's what's morning tea time look like for you now compared to compared to to pre-back injury? Well, when I was like 22 years old, I could get up an hour before my tee time and swing at 120 miles an hour and go right to the tee. But now it's a little more like a three hour wake up call before a tee time. So if I'm off at eight, I'm up at five to warm up.

But I used to joke about it because, you know, like I play a lot of golf with Patrick Cantley around, you know, around town. And, you know, he had some back stuff early on in his career. And I'd ask him, I said, what time do you want to play? You want to play at eight, eight thirty? And he would always like shake his head like absolutely not. And I never really understood why. But now I get it. It's because he's doing the same stuff that I'm doing now. So you just learn what you need to do and you just do it. It's kind of like, you know, you brush

your teeth, you eat breakfast, you do your exercises, you know, it's kind of just the programming within you. It just changes to where it's just a part of your routine. Well, back to the important stuff now on the boating front, because I don't think we've covered all that, right? Again, old interviews, I'll listen to you like that's a passion of yours is being out of the water, like that's your thing. So you weren't able to do a lot of that.

It wasn't comfortable. Are you now able to do that? And is that still something that you enjoy passing your time with? And we need an update on the whole straight vibe and fleet. I got to know what you've got over there. And I've heard rumors, but I need the full story. Yeah, listen, boating is definitely like the number one hobby outside of golf. It's pretty much like if I had to choose one thing to do, if I wasn't playing golf and be on the boat,

whether it's going to the Bahamas or even just going for a cruise, you know, on the air coastal, but, um, it didn't feel right to do it and, uh, it was bothering me, but now I feel a hundred percent like I have no problem. I could go run 200 miles across the Atlantic ocean and feel completely fine and go fish for 12 hours and have no issues. But I just think that like where I'm at after taking a year and a half off, it's probably

not responsible to take two weeks off to go fishing. Like I need to need to buckle down and start racking up some FedEx cut points and, you know, get that world ranking from whatever the heck it is right now to pre pre all of this shit Well, yeah, there's the golf world went through some pretty drastic changes During your time off and and you know, you were you were having so much success as you as you said kind of before all this happened Like does is there any feeling of like getting bypassed while you're sitting out? Right? I mean, there's new names that are popping up now on leaderboards. There's you know while you're sitting out, right? I mean, there's new names that are popping up now on leaderboards. There's, uh, you know, uh, the events of all chains now in the PGA tour. What's kind of,

what's like getting, what's it like getting back into the competitive flow, uh, with that much time off? I think the, the most interesting thing is like showing up to the, to the tournament and not knowing like 75% of the people that are out there, just because I'm not a guy that like casually watches golf. So I haven't really paid attention to like who's come up from the corn fairy and who's you know recently won and Yeah, just like I looked down the range and I'm like man like where did all the guys that I played with go But I'm sure that's kind of how you know some of the older guys not that I'm old But some of the guys that when I first came out on tour felt, you know, when I was coming out there, but yeah, I mean, I don't think it's a bad thing. I think it's always nice to have a little bit of a changeover. And, but the whole, you know, Thaga, the live, you know, BS,

not BS, but the whole golf world right now, I'm kind of glad that I didn't have to experience all that stuff and deal with it because it's just like Like a drain on yourself if you really like think about all the stuff that's going on And it's just I try to focus on what I can control and like none of that stuff is in my control Which kind of sucks, but yeah, it's been it's been a crazy like two years with all that going on Well, it's it you know, it can be a helpful thing too And you know, you've got enough on your plate as it is. Have you ventured into all the stuff that's going on

with the SSG and equity and all this stuff and signature events and all the changes that have happened? Are you just like, just tell me when and where my tee time is and I'm going to go play? How involved are you and how involved do you want to be in all that? Well, I'd like to be more involved, but before this all happened,

I was the top 20 player in the world and I was in every major championship and all the, I would be in all the elevated events. And obviously that's all changed. Nothing was protected. So when I came back, I basically came back with full PJ tour status, but not qualified for any of those events.

And so like the last time I played Pebble Beach, I won the golf tournament and I never got a chance to defend it because, you know, I got hurt the next year and then it became an elevated event and you needed to, I wasn't into it. So, and I didn't get a sponsor's invite, which it's not the end of the world, but it would have been nice to, you know,

be able to defend the tournament that I won the last time I played it. But yeah, the whole thing is, it's like exhausting to think about like, I, it's, I don't even know what to say. Like I sat there and I listened to, uh, you know, like in one of those player meetings, most recently at the TPC, Scottsdale, then I was like, this is just like so much going on in the golf role. I was like, I don't even, it's like mentally exhausting to think about. I don't really know how else to put it, but I feel bad for whoever has to like deal with that

on the day to day. I really respect the guys that are on the player board because they're trying to balance, you know, our best interests while playing, you know, golf for themselves and their families. So it's a, it's a big undertaking. That's for sure What is what was it like being back in competition? But you know, did the the feels were they familiar? Did it feel totally different when we can talk a little bit about kind of some of the changes you made your golf swing into your kind of team as well? You know, you mentioned that earlier, but getting back into the swing of things I believe you've only played about 10 rounds in the previous six months before you teed it up at the AMX, but you've had some success

when you do tee it up. What's it like getting back into competition? Yeah, it was kind of just like, it didn't feel that crazy or that different, you know, it was more excitement. Like, you know, I remember the first day that the first round of the AMX, I woke up at like 430 in the morning and I was just like ready to run through a brick wall. I was so pumped. But yeah, I mean, like I love those, those kind of like, I wouldn't call it nervous jitters, but like excitement, ready to go feeling like excited about what you're having store for you. It was nice to get off to what I would call a decent start after 18 months

off and make the cut and play four rounds and two weeks after that and waste management, which is obviously, you know, a big event I haven't played in front of a ton of people in a while and there was a couple hundred thousand people there. So it was just, I feel like getting my feet under me and getting in that atmosphere and, you know, making some birdies and feeling the crowd. That was kind of a nice thing. And now I feel already like I'm back into, you know, like I've played golf for the last year. So it really only felt like it only took me a couple of events to really get back under my feet and feel like I was ready to go.

If I have a right, you're working with Mark Blackburn now and you've made some changes to your golf swing. I guess tell me, is it to help suit your back and kind of the changes, you know, or the injury that you've gone through? Is this a more sustainable swing? I guess for your back and kind of the changes, you know, or the injury that you've gone through? Is this a more sustainable swing? I guess for your back and kind of take us through that process. Yeah. You know, I think I looked at every aspect.

I mean, I had a lot of time off. That was the one thing I did as I kind of looked at every aspect of my game and what I could improve on and areas that I thought I needed to get better at. And, you know, the golf swing was definitely a factor in what was going off in the back and with my back. I think I have a little bit of a unique move, but we looked at some of the 3D data, sent it out to a couple different people, and we found some pretty simple things in my swing that were, you know, a contributing factor to what I was dealing with. And so, kind of went down the list of a couple of people that I thought could be helpful

and landed on Blackburn and went to go see him in Birmingham. And really the first thing that we kind of dove into is how to swing the club and be pain free, because that's the goal, right? You can't play golf if you're hurting. And so we found a little thing to work on, and that's kind of been what I've been dealing with

in the last couple of months. And I never really have made a swing change in like 15 years of playing golf. Your swing is always evolving, but this was like a really targeted change. So it was unique to go through that experience, but it really doesn't feel, you know, different in a sense of where like I get over a shot and I'm like, whoa, what is this feeling or

where's the ball going to go? It's, I feel like I'm athletic and I can just make it happen with a simple thought and that's what I did. This is a good time to update you on the No Laying Up email newsletter. If you aren't a subscriber, you should be. You can sign up at newsletter.nolay laying up.com. We sent out the email newsletter twice a month. This Friday's edition, you'll find an update on our 2024 event series, a fun Q and a with the whole squad about guided by our guy KVV updates on upcoming content

from no laying up. The email newsletter is the best way to stay up to date on all things and all you and get exclusive subscriber specials in the pro shop. Again, you can subscribe for free newsletter.no-laying-up.com. Get involved. That's from the merch. So back to Daniel Berger. This is probably a dumb question, but do you ever, I don't know how else to ask this, but you ever like sit and think about how many people play golf like around the world and do you ever like, you mentioned this, though, you were a top 20 player in the world. Do you ever think about like, man, there aren't 20 guys in the world

better than me at this sport? Like, do you ever sit and think about that in terms of what you've accomplished at golf? Yeah, I think I always thought I was a little bit of an underachiever. Excuse me. I always thought that, like, when I looked at like my career as a whole, because I had, like I said, I had a lot of time to sit around and, you know, you, you think about a lot of things in your time off, but I would never give myself that much credit.

Like, you know, I've won, you know, some, I've won some golf tournaments and I played in a Ryder Cup and I played in the President's Cup and I've, you know, contended in major championships and it never really like felt successful in a way. And, and I think when I had the time off, I kind of sat around and I was like, you know what? I'm pretty, pretty fucking good at the game of golf. And it gave me some, some good confidence that like, you know, I've accomplished a lot and that, you know, like if golf were to end today, I would still be thankful for the time that I had. But, you know, I don't have a lot of quit in me. So even if this thing, if this process took three years to get back, you know, I still,

I'd be going through the only thought in my mind every single day that I woke up is how do I get one step closer to being back at a golf tournament? And I think with that mindset, it's you're not going to fail because there is no, there's no room for failure. You just put one foot in front of the other until eventually you get there. But I hope at one time in my career that there's only one guy ahead of me and or zero guys ahead of me and I'm the guy. So and I truly believe that, you know, I don't know if that'll ever happen, but I, I believe I can get there. So that's, you know, people will probably laugh at that. Whatever.

I don't really care. It's the way I feel about my game. No, I mean, you've gotten crazy close to that. That's the figure that I've kind of getting at it. Yeah. The longer I do this, the more I realize how many pro golfers there are. I mean, the volume is insane. And to, you know, this is, this is funny.

You know what I always think about? I always think about how many bad golfers there are, like terrible, terrible golfers. Like I watch people and I'm like, if I played golf like that, I would quit. I would never hit a golf ball. Like if that's the way I play golf, this would just not be enjoyable. Well, it's, it's fun.

I'm wondering if you, if you felt this at all either, because nothing to me looks harder, like when I'm going through back stuff and I'm out for a while, then golf, like if I drive by a golf home, like I can't even like picture hitting a golf shell on this. I'm wondering if like, did it ever feel insurmountable in terms of like, not only do I have to get all the way back to health, but I have also got to like, now go out and beat all these dudes who are, you have a year of practice on me now that I've, uh, that I've had to put the clubs away for a while.

I think the hardest part is looking at the amount of time it's gonna take to get to where you know you wanna be, right? So like, I could sit there and plan out six months in advance what I was gonna need to do. And when you look at something six months out in advance, you're like, wow, that is so much work and that is gonna take so long and that is going to take so long, and there's going to be so many long days. But then when you kind of just break it down into like,

a one day out of a time mentality, it becomes more feasible and it becomes doable. And then next thing, you know, you know, six months has gone by and you're where you want to be. And so that was kind of the biggest process for me is not looking at, you know, the long term and really focusing on the short term. And eventually you just start stacking these good days upon each other and you just start getting better and better and better. And you're like, wow, I'm where I wanted to be. But, you know, I planned it six months ago. I heard you say in an interview before too that you've you've always written stuff down. Whether that be, you know, kind of take us there. Is that lessons you've learned from other people?

Is that stuff you've kind of taught yourself or things you just want to remember? Do you still write a lot down? Do you look back on notes and stuff? I'm wondering what that looks like. Yeah, I mean, I think I've always written stuff down since I was young. I mean, I actually, a journal from like 2007 or 2008

from like some of my first golf lessons, you know? And it's just funny to like read the stuff that I was writing and like, I'm like, wow, that's that's what I was working on back then. But no, I think it's a good way to, to give yourself perspective and to again, really stack good days upon each other because when you don't write it down, you almost can get caught in this like negative outlook of where you don't realize all the good stuff that have happened in a day or all the things that you can be grateful for. And when you write them down, I feel like it really sticks with you and you can go back and look at it. And that was something that was really important to me. And I would keep a journal of like how many golf balls I hit and how many chips I hit, you know,

more recently in the last like year and a half, because I was kind of tracking, you know, my, not my performance, but I was tracking kind of on a ball count. And so like I'd look back at it and I'd be like a year and a half ago, I hit 20, 20 chip shots in 10 putts. And now I'm up to hitting, you know, as many golf balls as I want. But that wasn't that long ago that I could only hit 20 chip shots and feel like, okay, so I've come a long way since that short time ago. A little better than what I do. I find a swing field, I'll take out my notes app

and just write the swing field down and think that that'll address all of my golf problems forever. I like your process. It'll probably help though. That's for sure. It'll help for like three days and then I forget about it

and then try a whole new field. It's what us mortals have to go through. But do you, so you mentioned you don then try a whole new feel. It's, uh, it's what the us mortals have to have to go through. But do you, so you mentioned you don't watch a lot of golf, like do you, do you watch any golf? Like, do you still not have the PGA tour app on your phone? I believe I've heard that from you in the past. I just downloaded the PGA tour out because, uh, because I need to see sometimes like where I'm at or like, you know, I want to see what the cut is or whatever.

But no, I honestly, I, I, I actually think golf is, is entertaining to watch, but I, I don't know. It's like when you're not playing the game and you, and you feel like you can't play to then like watch guys do what, what you want to do is like so painful that it's like not even worth watching. So I really stayed away from it. I watched a lot of tennis. I like watching tennis.

Um, but other than that, it's just been, you know, any other sport other than golf. Is the rider cup any different? Did you watch any of that? I mean, having been on the 2020, I did watch the ride. I did watch the rider cup. That was the one thing I watched. I actually thought it was, it was really fun to watch, you know, more fun to be there in person, but, you know, exciting to see the guys competing out there and representing their country. It was, it was cool. I wish they, you know, would have got a few more victories there on some of those matches, but, you

know, it's just, it's a good, it's a great tournament to watch. What happened? And, you know, if you're, if you're a fan like me, I was expecting the U S to win, you win in record fashion when you play at whistling straights and you go over and throw up a four zero stinker in the US to win, you win in record fashion when you play at Wisting Straits and you go over and throw up a four zero stinker in the opening session. I know you haven't played on one of these away yet, but as a golfer, how does that happen? How does, you know, can a home field advantage really play that much of an effect? Because that's what it felt like from watching it. The home field advantage is definitely a factor. You know, I don't know if, you know, the fan at home knows, but the home team controls the golf

course. So they control the speed of the greens, the length of the rough, all of those small little factors. But they're looking at all the stats and they're going, all right, well, all guys hit it 325 off the tee. We're going to set the course up really long. Our guys put better on really fast greens. We're going to make the greens really fast. So it's know, it's always to their advantage to set it up the way that their players are going to play the best. But, you know, obviously it just comes down to who plays better golf. And I think they played better golf and they had the home crowd advantage. And, you know, they made more putts. And when you make more putts in a Ryder Cup, you're going to play better. That's that's the one And when you make more putts in a Ryder Cup, you're going to play better. That's, that's the one piece of information I feel like over the last two team events

that I've played in, that's what it looks like. The team that puts better plays better and they seem to make more putts. What's your, your lasting memory from, uh, from Wishing straights? I'm guessing for a lot of people, the first thing that comes to mind is the, uh, the beer chug on the first team. I'm wondering if that's your your last eBeverie. The beer chug on the first tee for sure, because I told, you know, after after my opening round with Brooks, we won the first, the first match.

I was told by Captain Stricker, I wasn't going out in the afternoon. I said, well, can I go to the first tee and throw beers to the crowd? Like they're they're going crazy. Like this would be a cool way to get him fired up. And he was like, he's like, listen, if you do it, I'm not saying yes, you know? So it's not gonna be me saying you could do it. And I was like, all right, that was kind of a yes.

That was kind of a no. I don't really know. And then finally I was just like, JT was sitting there in the locker room. And I was like, yo dude, like let's fill up this bag with beers and let's go check them at the crowd. And we went out there and obviously, you know, things got a little out of hand and you know, a beer landed on the floor and JT was like looking at me and I was looking

at him and I was like, yeah, let's do it. You know, it looked like he probably hadn't shotgunned the beer in 10 years, but I don't think he shotgunned it. I think he just tried to straight chug it. I don't think that I don't know what he did. My beer, my beer was gone, but you know, I went to Florida state and no, we shotgun a few beers in college. So I'm not saying that I'm good at shotgun beers, but I'm better than him at it. Yeah. You could have clipped, you could have club twirled that one. You had that one. Yeah. You had that one down and you were strutting off. The other memory I have from that,

especially is when you and Brooks see almost gotten a fight with a rules official, uh, the 15th hole in your guys match. Take us to that spot. Cause I remember you guys, uh, getting, getting into it with a rules official over, uh, some relief that wasn't given. Oh, I sliced one about 50 yards right of the fairway into like a hole. I never seen a hole like this in my life. And I would say like, if I had to put the odds

at it, I would say nine out of 10 times in a PGA tour event, you would get a free drop. Like, just being honest, I really believe that nine out of 10 times, a rules official would have given you a drop for like, you know, they give you like, you get these animal holes or whatever, and like, they just give you a drop. And I mean I mean obviously he wasn't getting a drop and he was You know adamantly wanting one and I mean I was wanting one too, but you know things get a little chippy and rider cups but in the end you just you just accept whatever the ruling is and you just play on and You know we I think in that match We had a big early lead and we kind of faltered in the middle of the round and we went from like a couple up early to a couple down.

And so it was a big momentum change with a couple holes to go. And, you know, we didn't play our best, but, you know, we, we have the trophy at the end of the, at the end of a week, so it didn't really matter. You seem like a hyper competitive dude. I can't imagine just how much you got to play at 2017 president's cup 2021 rider cup, both on home soil, like that has to just be your type of environment. That has to just be like what gets your juices flowing. Yeah. And I think I just think the guys that I've played on both of those teams with were like, you know, my kind of people. And I think that's what really,

you know, creates a great environment for success is when you have, you know, 10 or 11, 12 guys on a team that really like are competitive. Well, everyone's competitive, but really like get along together and have that same kind of, you know, feed off that kind of energy. And I think a lot of those guys were around the same age as me for the most part, JT, Jordan, Max,

all those guys were right around, you know, my age. So, you know, we grew up playing together. We're feisty. And I think, uh, when you get those kinds of guys together, you know, usually it's a good recipe for success. I'm far, uh, remembering back to 2017, Saturday night, you guys are up by a good Jillian points, uh, over the international team.

You get interviewed going into, into the final round. Do you remember what exactly what your quote was it? Did you get any any bass like back backlash from that after that happened? Yeah, I think I think I said something along the lines of He asked me like, you know, what do you like? How's it gonna go tomorrow? And I said well, I you know, I hope we beat them worse tomorrow Then we beat them today or something and like Twitter. I think at the time went crazy, they're like, oh my God, you're so, you know, disrespectful. Like this is a team competition. And I was like, dude, if you're not thinking that, then you should go get another job. Because every single guy

on this team is thinking the exact same thing. And, you know, I get it. Like people are kind of soft these days. I feel like they're just hyper sensitive and like, I don't know, but why, why, what team environment would you not want to get up there and just crush, crush them every single time and like try to set a record and beat them by more points than anyone's ever beaten them. And I feel lucky because the two team events I've ever played in, like we, I think we set records in both of them. Yeah. Exactly.

I mean, our goal from the minute we got here was to crush them as bad as we can. I hope that we close them out today and we go out there and beat them even go out there tomorrow and beat them even worse. That's great. You're exactly right. Like it's, come on. It's if, if we can't say something like that, then what's the point of having

these competitions? Like a hundred percent. Uh, but no, that was, did you guys go a little too hard? If I remember right on Saturday night Little celebration before Sunday singles of the at the 2017 presidents come well, no our our goal was to close them out on Saturday and I remember Charlie Hoffman Have or lost his match on Saturday to keep it going into Sunday and every time time I see Charlie often, I remind him about that match that he didn't win. And every time he sees me, he just laughs about it.

But, you know, I don't, I mean, I just think those team matches are about, you know, the camaraderie of the group of people you're with. And, you know, every single guy on that team is just as competitive as I am. So it's a great, it's a great thing to be a part of. It's funny to look back at that. I was watching a couple of highlights today and just the tight, like tiger and Phil in the, in the team room of that, right? As tiger, how much has changed since then? But God, what was that? I am so, I feel so lucky that I was able to be like a part of a team environment with like who have like arguably the greatest golfers of all time and like Tiger was a was a

vice captain and like he was in his prime like not prime but he was like healthy and he was like super involved and like Phil was playing and it was just so cool to be around those guys and and to just hear them talk and to share stories and to just, just be around that kind of greatness. Cause was it like a little bit of eggshells in terms of, cause if I remember right, I remember Phil made a putt or something on one of the holes and Tiger like did a big gesture. And I remember us in the media were kind of like, whoa, like Tiger, Tiger Root and on film, but that's not how their careers have gone. What was it kind of like in that team room where you guys kind of feeling out what their relationship was like at that point. You know, they're actually like, they're totally fine together.

I don't know if like the media makes it out to be something other than it is, but you know, like they are, they're totally fine. And like we played ping pong one day and, uh, it was just so funny because. You know, Phil, I feel like he thinks he's the best at everything he does. And like we played ping pong and he was talking about how he's like taking like hours and hours of lessons and like, you know, he's just like world-class ping pong player and he's, you know, he's the best one there and like tigers never played really.

I mean, he's played, but he's not really played and they were going at it one on one. And it was just funny to watch these guys, like they're both terrible at ping pong, but they're ultra competitive and just to watch them be bad at something and still want to win so badly, I just was laughing the whole time. Do you have, I hate what I ever asked this question, but do you have like a go to Phil Mickelson story? I feel like everyone's got one and I could, I can, I could listen to all of them. I have, I have a lot of film Eccleston stories. I actually was, I wouldn't say I was close with him, but you know, I enjoyed, you know, hanging out with him and playing a couple of practice runs with him.

But the first year or maybe my second year on tour, I had a three shot lead at a Memphis, which was the first golf tournament I ever won. And I think he was like in second place trying to win the golf tournament. And there was like a two hour rain delay in the final round. And I used to, I used to mess with him and I used to call him Philip all the time. And he came at me and he was like, well, you can't call me Philip anymore until you win. He's like, I'm Phil until you win.

And then I won that golf tournament for the rest of the year. I just kept calling him Philip everywhere. So I don't know. He's a, I'm Phil until you win. And then I won that golf tournament for the rest of the year. I just kept calling him Philip everywhere. So I don't know. He's a good dude. I think, you know, there's a lot that's gone on in the golf world, but, you know, I respect everything he's done for the game of golf and he's been a great ambassador. And those guys are going to, I mean, they're just the reason why people love watching the game, you know, like you, regardless of how you feel about him,

you would turn on the TV to watch Phil Mickelson compete. And like I was at last year, he finished second in the Masters and he's, he's, what is he, 50 years old, 51 years old. He won a major, he won a major at what, 50 years old. Like that's 51 when he won a Keele and he's 54 now or 53 now. It's insane. I mean, to win the PGA championship at 51 years old is just, it's insane. And it's, it was so good for the game of golf. And like, I remember watching the 18th hole, the crowds coming down the fairway. I was like, this is what we need in this game right now. And it sucks to see like how far we've come from that moment to where we are now.

You know, that's exactly right. I mean, he's just been an incredible entertainer for all of us for so long. And, uh, and yeah, man, it's just crazy to look back at all the footage from all that stuff and just, just think about how much all has changed since then. But growing up, you, you, so if, for people that aren't familiar, uh, you don't, we don't have to do your whole background story, but you grew up in South Florida, um, say Jupiter area. I mean, the, the, the names of the clubs and, and I went out from and one of the stories of your childhood sound quite familiar to where you currently live, but die preserve, tell us about there,

working there and kind of how you found yourself in some money games there. Yeah, I grew up in Miami and my dad worked for the USDA and their offices moved from Miami to Boca, so we moved from Miami to Jupiter, so it was a little bit of an easier drive. And my dad reached out to one of his old kind of guys, Yvonne Lendl, and Lendl set me up with one of his buddies, Matt Doyle, who was one of the teaching pros at the Dye Preserve, and took a lesson from Matt, and he said, hey, if you ever want to come out here and play, we'll

set you up, we'll set you up with a job. You can caddy, you can work the range. And I was like, my eyes lit up 15 years of 14, 15 years old. I was like, this is incredible. And I spent every single day there from like 2000. I mean, I don't know how old I was 14 or 15 from sunup to sundown, picking the range, playing golf, hanging out with the guys. Um, it was, it out with the guys.

It was an amazing time. And there was a bunch of pros that were playing out there, Steve Reno, Jesper Parnivik, a ton of tour guys. And I think they had a little liking for me. They saw that I was kind of a competitive guy. I didn't really take a lot of shit for a 14 year old. And Steve really brought me in, which is so incredible of him. He was a top 30 player in the world at the time and he would come out there and play golf with me.

And so I really, from an early age, I got to see some of the best players in the world and got to play against them. And I remember when I went to college, my first college golf tournament, I was like, man, these guys are not that good. They're good, but they're not that good when you're used to playing with these, you know, PGA tour players. And so it kind of just gave me a different outlook on like what it takes to get good and what to expect. And from there, I just, I think I owe a lot to Steve because he's really, he's been there for me for a long time. And he's, uh, he's just a great dude and not a lot of guys, I feel like would take a 14 year old under their wing and spend time with them and play golf with them. So I'm thankful for that for sure.

What is it about play? I get that age playing with good players. What, what do you take away? Do you remember specifically what you remember walking away, uh, thinking about and, and how did that help you improve? Well, first off, I just remember watching him practice. I remember seeing the stuff that he did, just watching someone of that level and being able to pick their brains on like what they're doing and what they're thinking about.

That just gets you such a step ahead when you're not able to do that at, you know, even a later stage in your career. Like some of these guys that are coming out in college, like they've never played against a PGA tour player. I mean, these guys are better now coming out of college than we were when I came out. But you just have an earlier fight at what your competition is going to look like and what to expect. And you're not as phased when you see what you're playing up against. So tell me about playing, playing money games with, with Steve Marino when you're 14,

15 years old or whatever it was. playing, uh, playing money games with, uh, was Steve Marino in your 14, 15 years old or whatever it was. Well, he, uh, he tells a lot of stories that are different from my recollection. You know, I think he was on Colt Nose podcast telling a story about, you know, taking my iPad, which was, or iPod, which was true, it was just my recollection of it was different than his recollection of it. But, you know, I used to do like nine whole putting contest with him on the putting green for like 500 bucks, and I had like $12 in my pocket. And my recollection is that I beat him in a putting contest for $500 and he would not pay me. And he made me go out and play holes with him. And like by the seventh hole, he was up like $500. And, but he's, he's been there. He's been there for me for so long.

And again, he was that first guy that really took me under his wing. And, um, but yeah, it's good lesson to learn even it's worth the price of an iPod or whatever. I did it for a couple of years. The crazy thing was that he actually held onto the, to the iPod for like two and a half years, like maybe longer, like three and a half years. Yeah. The iPod sitting on his dresser in his nightstand in his house.

And finally, I think I made it to the corn furry tour and made my first check and I like gave him a, gave him like a thousand bucks cash. And I was like, dude, stop telling that story to people. Cause he was going around telling it to everybody. You can tell it to, so he's a funny dude though. That's great. That's great. There's something, there is something about, uh, just for me, like moving to Florida

and just getting to tee it up with many tour guys every now and then it's just a total, total game changer. Like you just like your mindset totally changes and just watching good shots on repeat becomes, I, that's why I don't, I couldn't tell, you know, if your experience was, you know, stuff that you specifically, stuff you took away or just like, Hey, when there's a standard of golf right next to you happening, you just naturally raise like your, your, when there's a standard of golf right next to you happening, you just naturally raise like your, your, your body wants to raise to that whatever

that level is. Like that's important. Yeah. Competition. No, I think that's like, that's the best way to put it is just when you're around it and you see it, then you just raise your level to it. So what, how do you explain to us kind of how the, the clubs of juke life work, right? There's Bears Club, there's Metalyst. You hear about all these clubs like who, how do you know, do clubs like recruit pros to come play in it?

How do guys end up being members at one or two or three courses? What's the kind of the, how is it a political situation? Explain to us how all that situation works down there. Well, I was lucky because, you know, I've been here for a long time. I've lived here since, you know, forever. And I think it was less challenging to get into some of these upper echelon clubs at the time because, you know, maybe Bears Club would have had, you know, 15 pros playing there at the time.

And now they have 30, right? And like, you can't have, there's only a limited number of spots to get into the club. You can't have, you know, 60 pros playing in there. So it's, it's, it's much more difficult now to get in, but, you know, I had a great relationship with, uh, with Mr. Nicholas and called them up on the phone and kind of explained my situation to him. And he let me in and, you know, so I had the dive reserve and I had the bearers club and I feel like I had the best of both worlds.

I had, you know, two kind of completely separate golf courses. And, you know, one was a, one was really challenging around the greens, the Bears Club. And the dye was always really tough off the tee. So I could really practice two different sides of my games, getting ready for golf tournaments. But yeah, I mean, there's the amount of golf courses and the amount of good golf courses in, in, in this kind of like 60 mile radius of like, you know, bokeh to, you know, hope sound is just astounding. And like, I

think, you know, there's four or five new golf courses, the apogee in hope sound, and you've got, you know, Grove, you got Michael Jordan's golf course, and you got the new Discovery golf course. And it's just, you got Panther National, it's like, I don't know where these golf courses are popping up and how they're popping up so quickly, but it's really kind of becoming like the mecca of golf. This kind of South Florida region, but yeah, it's competitive now to get into these courses as a pro because there's just so many guys down here and they're

so limited amount of spots to get in that you really have to, you know, build a relationship with, you know, the people that make the decisions and hopefully get lucky enough to join them. How do, how do the games get arranged? Like, is there one massive text chain for like all the Bears Club tour pros? Do you have like little clicks that go off in certain, how do you get, how do you find a foursome and how competitive are the games? I think at this point, like I've been down here for so long and I've been a bear, I've been at the Bears Club and the diaperserver for so long, you literally show up to the Bears Club range and there's, you know, 12 touring pros practicing at a time, 15 guys practicing.

And you know the guys that are more into the practice and you know the guys that are more into the playing. And so I tend to gravitate to the guys that like to play more, like, you know, Alex Norr, and he's a practiser. And, you know, Luke Donald is a player, Camillo is a player, Keegan's a player. So you kind of find the guys that like to play more and you find the guys that like to practice more. And you just figure out which, which

guys are ready to go. And I mean, any at any given day, like I said, you could, you could see 15 guys on the range getting ready to, you know, to go to a tournament and it's everyone wants to stay competitive. So everyone wants to play golf and it's, it's really actually super easy. Well, last topic I want to talk to you about was, uh, was confidence. And I might be asking this selfishly as someone who just, uh, royally shot the bed in a tournament recently, but mental mental preparation is, is valuable. And I, I want to know kind of what your journey has been like on

that, right? I mean, everybody goes through ups and downs when it comes to confidence, but kind of what you fall back on from a mental standpoint, it's not as simple as, hey, just go have a good attitude out there and you're going to play great. I'm sure there's a ton you've learned and how to channel confidence into success on the golf course. I'm wondering what kind of lessons you could teach on that front? Well, I think that the most important thing with confidence comes down to to practice, right? Like the more you practice, the better you feel about your game, the better understanding you have of what shots can come out. So for me, that's what practice is all about.

It's about building confidence in what you're going to go do out on the course. But I think the realization that everyone's going to hit bad shots, you know, it's just a part of the game is really kind of something that like relaxes me because you're not going to go out and play 18 holes and hit, you know, 18 perfect shots off the tee and 18 perfect putts and 18 perfect chips or whatever. It's so it's really just about getting over the ball and just doing the best that you can do at that time and accepting the result. And I feel like the confidence comes from being okay with hitting, you know, shots that aren't perfect.

And Lee enough for me, I've played 25 years golf and I've seen everything you can see on a golf. Something really shocks me. It just makes it much easier. I've heard you also talk about breathing, like the importance of breathing. Whenever I've tried this, I just, I find myself getting more nervous, like the more deep breaths I try to take. But is there a science to kind of breathing and managing nerves and, and,

and how that affects your golf game? Yeah. Number one thing that I always do on the golf course is breathe. Um, I always try to make a big exhale right before I take the club away or, you know, right before I take the putter back. And it's something that I've that I've worked on since I was like 14 or 15 years old. And I find in the biggest moments in the most important, the most pressure filled moments, the only thing I'm ever thinking about is my breathing. It never is about, am I going to make this putt?

Am I going to hit the green? Am I going to hit it in the fairway? It's always focused on the breath and it's always focused on, you know, the exhale right before I take the club away. And then it kind of frees you up. It kind of takes away any thought of anything else going in your mind.

It's like a little mini version of meditation, but I'm sure, you know, my method may be simple compared to, you know, what some of these other guys do. But I think if you looked at the top 20 players in the world, they would all have some sort of breathing technique that they're using before they're hitting a golf shot. Gosh, I haven't, I haven't thought of it that way in long, long time. I'm going to take that, take that with me. What's, for the listeners, what's, what's your plan kind of for the rest of the year? Are you playing everything that you're in?

What can people expect to see you in and kind of what's the rest of your year look like? Yeah. I think it's going to be kind of an evolving schedule as the year goes on. Um, just based on how I play, um, you know, I know I'm going to play this week at the cognizant, which is, you know, my home event. And, um, I think I'll add events here and there, but just not knowing exactly what tournaments I'll be in, in terms of the elevated events, you know, my home event and, um, I think I'll add events here and there, but just not knowing exactly what tournaments I'll be in, in terms of the elevated events, you know, based on my play, it's kind of just going to

have to evolve as, as the year goes on. But just lucky and, and, and grateful that I'm healthy and, and, and can play in as many golf tournaments tournaments as I want to play in. Well, we look forward to watching it, man. We appreciate your time today and we're glad to have you back and healthy and playing some golf. And we look forward to seeing you down the road. Appreciate your time.

Thanks, Chris. Appreciate it. Cheers. Be the right club today. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Better than most