No Laying Up - Golf Podcast - NLU Podcast, Episode 808: Ken Green

Episode Date: March 20, 2024

Soly catches up with former PGA Tour pro Ken Green who has some amazing and hilarious stories about his career on tour, his numerous fines, sneaking his family into Augusta for the Masters and getting to play with the biggest superstars of his era. We also hear about the traumatic events over the course of his life which he has detailed in his book Hunter of Hope: A Life Lived Inside, Outside, and On The Ropes. Soly has an editorial note at the 55:45 mark that introduces this portion of the podcast. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Be the right club. Be the right club today. That's better than most. That is better than most. Better than most. Expect anything different. better than most expect anything different ladies and gentlemen welcome back to the no laying up podcast soli here got an interview coming shortly with ken green someone that we had mentioned in a recent masters or majors recap as someone that we should track down and interview um we did track him down and interview him he was known as a bad boy on the tour and we detailed a lot of the finds that he encountered. He revels in telling so many stories.

I gotta say, when I set out to research Mr. Green, I was very unaware of some heavy details about his past. This podcast episode is gonna start with a lot more of the fun-loving stuff and I'm gonna cut in later in the episode to add a bit of context around a story about his childhood that's quite difficult for him to tell. And it'll make sense when you get to it.

Again, when you hear a cut in, it is not an ad break. It is an editorial note that I'm gonna make later on kind of introducing some of the subject, which was extremely difficult for him to discuss. But it is a topic that he has written about in his book and has written about in Golf Digest. It was just hard to understand. It'll be hard to get all the details from him when we do discuss it later on. This episode is brought to you by our friends at Roeback Activewear. You all know Roeback. Best fit, best feel. They are fresh off new restocks

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So I'm 37. I started covering golf in 2014. I'd like to think I know a fair amount about it. But some you know, some historical deep dives have led us into hearing just a bit of your story and preparing for this. I got to say I was not fully prepared of what I would go on to learn about your life. And we're gonna cover a lot today. But I wanna start with where does your golf story begin? Well, I guess in a strange world,

my mom decided to move us to Honduras. Which when you're 11 years old, you just assume Honduras is a city just down the road. But basically, she did that hoping that my father would get his stuff together. He was a really bad drinker, hoping that the less people he knew, maybe he could, he could, he could beat the drinking, but he couldn't. But it woke me up to a lot of things, some bad and some good, but it's a strange place to go when you're 11 years old. Why Honduras and when does golf enter the picture there?

Did you learn golf in Honduras? I think Honduras is that's where the job was. He's a principal of an American school. And really the main reason I got into golf is because they wouldn't let me play any other sports because I was American. So they joined a little nine hole, well it was the only golf course,

nine hole golf course. And so I basically spent my days there and then just kind of fell in love with it. It's kind of helped me survive the bad things that did happen. And it was a win-win. Little did I know it was going to save my existence as a good person, but I've loved golf ever since. So when you start developing golf skills when you're in Honduras,

you move back to the States as a teenager. And you turn into a professional golfer rather quickly as I understand it. Can you tell us a little bit about that? Well, you know, it was I knew I was going to be in the business whether it was going to, you know, when you're 16 years old or 15 years old, you don't really know if you're going to make it. You know, a lot of kids say they want to be professional, you know, football players or basketball, baseball. You know, I was going to be in golf.

Whether I was going to make it on the tour, I had no idea. But if I didn't, I would have been a club pro of something. Golf was my existence. So when I got, I hate to use the word, you know, done with school, so to speak college, I left after three years, I thought it was time to go find out whether I had a chance to, you know, survive and make it in golf or whether I was gonna have to go into the club world.

Can you give us an idea of what the pro golf landscape looked like? I mean, again, we're in 2024 now, there's money flying everywhere. There's video of all kinds everywhere. It's just every resource possible at our fingertips. I'm guessing the education process on the pro golf world had to be entirely different back then. I mean, did you have any ideas? Yeah, it definitely was a different world.

There really wasn't a whole lot of places to play, you know, me tour wise, where now they have them all over, you know, waiting for that dreaded Q school, which for viewers, it's once a year. And, you know, you got to get yourself ready because most of us are young and you really haven't developed into the golfer that you will be. And it was, there is nothing more nerve-racking than Q School.

You can say, you know, when in the Open or the up for the US Open or the Masters. There is, it is crazy. I'll give you a quick story. We're in, it was six rounds back in those days. And we're in Palm it was six rounds back in those days. And we're in Palm Springs playing La Quinta. And I was kind of a stupid aggressive player. I would be perfect for today's world. You know, back then wasn't so smart because your missus sent you off the planet.

The 17th hole there was a really tight hole. I mean, we're talking just zoom. And most everybody was hitting irons and then they would hit, you know, it shot over water. I hit driver and just smoke it right down in the middle. And I'm, you know, just got to finish par par and I'll get my card. I do my yardage and it says, you know, 165.

And I'm like, man, it just looks a lot closer. I do my yardage again, 165. I'm like, man, it just looks a lot closer. I do my yardage again, 165, and I'm like, that's just not right. You just know something's not right. And I'm like, well, all right, I did it one more time. Got this 165 again from a different sprinkler. Said, all right, 165 it is. So I pulled out a six iron, which is back then,

that's what it was, not a nine iron like today but and I probably hit the worst shot I've ever had in my life just I mean I laid the sod over this puppy and you know I'm disgusted I'm banging you know this and I look up and and the pin is in the very back and somehow carries the water which doesn't make any sense. I'm telling you, it hit this more than 130 yards and it literally rolls up to about 15 feet. As it turns out, I ended up making the putt. I'm like, well, this can't be right. I know, I mean, it was a sod buster and I redid the yardage and I got 135 this time. did the yardage and I got 135 this time. And it just goes to show you how the nerves can can really play in your head which means I carried that six iron it was 105 to the front so I only hit my six iron 106 yards and it rolled

the rest of the way that's how fat I hit it. I make it. Bob Tway finishes double bogey triple bogey and missed it by a shot. It's just you can't explain to viewers how crazy the the Q school pressure is. So you go straight to the tour like do you feel are you ready for it at this point? Do you as your game ready? Or do you what what? What's the learning process? You're not you're not ready.. Very few are, again, back then, because it was a slower progression. Whereas now, because of the equipment, guys get better faster. So there are little mini studs

that 16, 17 years old. When they get to college, they're turning into studs at 16, 17 years old. You know, when they get to college, they're, they're turning into studs where, you know, our progression was a much slower process. You know, I got out on tour and, and, you know, it was a, whoa, these guys are way out of my league. I mean, you know, I think I played 14 or 15 events and made seven cuts. Thought I was a, just a waste, but it, you know, so 14 or 15 events and made seven cuts. Thought I was just a waste, but you know, so I had to go back to Q School

and it was at that Q School and this time it was at TPC Sawgrass where Scotty just blew everybody's mind. And that's when I realized how much better I was because Q School was now, I don't wanna say easy, but how I handled it pressure wise, showed me how much I did learn. Even though it was a bad year, how much I did learn and then I've been played the tour for the next 18, 19 years.

When you got out there, who did you see that amazed you or what did you see out there that was like, okay, this is a totally different ball game? Well, you know, it was the first year or two, you know, I was lucky enough to get paired with a couple of the players and, you know, it was like, wow, they're just, you know, Lanny Watkins and, you know, I got to watch, you know, Tom Watson. And it was like, this is just out of my league. There's no way I'm ever going to reach this kind of level. But even the guys that were, I hate to use the word mediocre,

mediocre tour players I guess is the best way to label it, were so much better than me and it was like, huh. But again, it's that you don't realize how much better you get every year. You learn, you learn. And even though sometimes you feel like you're going backwards, you're actually going forward. And it took me, let's see, one, two, three, four years

before I won my first event. And then I was lucky to win some more and all that. But it was crazy because I never realized how mental the game was. Four years before I won my first event and then I was lucky to win some more and all that. But it was crazy because I never realized how mental the game was. When you're young, you're young, you're dumb, you're just kind of, in my case, I was fearless and just went out there and played. That's when I realized that, well, I'm watching some guys that are like stud muffins, you know, hitting the ball so much better than me but couldn't keep their card and it dawned on me.

It was like, well, it's because as bad as I might have been upstairs in the noggin world, they were worse and that's the reason. And, you know, and to this day I'm a firm believer that at a certain level, once we get to that tour level, the major difference between each golfer is how well their course management and their faith in themselves is the difference. What would you say is, what was your reputation like out on tour? What are you known for, as you say is what was your reputation like out on tour? What, what, what, what are you known for? As you say with the giggle.

You know, the strangest thing is, is I got this reputation. Is this like a bad boy? And I never really could understand it because I only, I answered questions. Yes. You know, I get asked a question. I gave you an answer. You know, to me it was, I wasn't being controversial. I wasn't trying to be controversial, but gave you an answer. To me, I wasn't being controversial. I wasn't trying to be

controversial, but evidently I was. I tell my friends and stuff, I said, I think I'm holding back. I'm only really saying 50% of what I want to say, and I'm getting crucified for it. Then once you start winning, then of course you get more notoriety and and I went on to be the tours bad boy you know all the different fines and and that's just who I was I guess. Did you enjoy that moniker? Did you play into it at all? You say a little bit with a smile. My theory was again I just you know I just want to answer

questions if you want to give me a question, I'm going to give you the answer. And I still believe that's the way you should do it. And you know, the tours is very control and in the sense that they basically want mini robots out there, you know, and, and then you mix that with the sports psychologists that are so involved today that basically they are mini robots. They're not real big on emotions. They're not real big on answering questions with honesty. And it's something I never could quite understand why, you know, I mean, in my opinion, golfers, especially professional golfers, are the most honest people on the planet Earth. You know, they're calling penalties on themselves that you would never see in any other sporting

event. But the tour wants you to act a certain way. And like, for instance, I'm answering this question, and I'm going to tell you what I just did. And then I'm going to tell you that the tour has been run by three of the most dishonest people on planet earth. Start with Dean Beeman, Tim Fincham, and now Jay Monahan. And it's the complete opposite of who the golfers are. And yet the guys on the top are questionable. I mean, they're just not honest people. Starting with what was commissioner when you were on tour, in your opinion, what makes Dean Beeman dishonest or what examples or what leads to that conclusion?

The reason I became more aware of who these gentlemen were was, I don't know if you've ever heard of the ping square groove lawsuit. Sure. gentlemen were was, I don't know if you've ever heard of the Ping square groove lawsuit. I was obviously a ping player and I was the only name player to sign on with the lawsuit. And I felt very strongly about it, not to fight the tour or the USGA, but I just didn't think it was right that all of a sudden, you know, three or four million golfers who played pings have to go out and buy a new set of clubs. I mean, to me that was inexcusable. And what the powers to be didn't understand was square grooves hurt you as much as they helped you.

There are certain shots they might have helped you, but then there are certain shots that the ball might have spun too much and spun in the air and ends up in the water instead of carrying. certain shots that the ball might have spun too much and spun in the air and ends up in the water instead of carrying. So, you know, the, the good and the bad of golf, just like every other aspect of golf. And, and then once the lawsuit happened, that's when, you know, Beeman and Fincham were not being honest to the players, you know, telling them that, you know, that Karsten is going to take over the tour. There's going to be no more PGA tour.

You're going to lose your jobs. And in that three year period, three and a half, I guess it was technically 27 of my 31 fines happened. So, you know, it just put, put two and two together and you're going to get screwed. Ken Green. I mean, that's just how it works. Uh, I got fined on, on Tuesdays. I'm, I'm playing a practice round.

It's me, Calcovecchia, Fred Couples, and Payne Stewart. We're playing at 92 Belle Reve in St. Louis. And we're waiting on the tee box. And, you know, it's a part three, so it's a, you know, they're waiting and waiting. So I go down and start signing autographs and someone says to me hey what do you think of the course so you know I'm signing away and I go you a member and he goes no I said the course sucks you know and everybody laughed and all that well an official just happened to be walking by and boom fine on a

Tuesday I mean you know that know, that's just, that's just how it worked when it came to me. I got, I got, I got nailed off. Well, I've also heard a story of in this time period as well of an incident that happened at the tour championship with you during this ping, these ping days with the weather, a weather delay, Pebble Beach, does that sound right? Does that sound familiar? Yeah, I do. I do do a little a little preparation for

these. Yeah. It was the very first tour championship, the Pebble Beach, and a storm comes in out of nowhere. I mean, just rain sideways and it's windy. Now we all know the 10th hole of public great golf ball. I hit driver driver, and I don't reach the green. I'm about 12, 13 yards short. I pitch it up to literally, literally about maybe 15 inches. And there's an official there. Now it's just buckets and buckets and buckets.

And I'm like, I go over and say, you're gonna call this, right? I mean, this is insane. We can't even, you know, nope, nope, nope. And I'm like, man over and said you're gonna call this right? I mean, this is the same we can't even you know No, no, no, I don't like man. I mix, you know, so I get over the pot and I'm getting there and I put and it just as I start stroking it a Huge gust of comes and kind of blows me away and you know, I hit the pot I missed the hole by about seven inches That's how much I got no blown over and then then I tapped the next one and the son of a

bitch blows the whistle. And so you know that they knew they were blowing and he was just being a pain in the ass and I ended up missing the playoff by one shot. Now, this particular year, it was between myself, Tom Kite, and Curtis Strange, who would be the first one to win a million dollars for the year. Not for a tournament, but for the whole year. And I'm not saying I would have won the playoff, but I just, people, human emotions get in. But, you know, again, all because they were not being honest. You know, and you fast forward to Monahan

and he and the board wasn't honest with the players. You know, didn't didn't give him a heads up on the, you know, on the live so-called merger and all this. I mean, just stabbed Rory in the back because Rory was basically the tour spokesman. And look how he's done a 180. You know, he's gone from they should not even be allowed on the planet to I think they should be able to come back. And you can't tell me that's not because he got stabbed. And I'll give you another

example with John Rahm. John Rahm was also adamantly not going to do it and who knows what besides the you know not telling the top players what's going on who knows what they actually told Rahm. So he didn't just switch without a reason you know He may too felt he got stabbed in the back. And he said, screw you. And then Monahan comes up with this, I have health reasons, so no one's going to question. He should have been fired immediately for that. And I give him credit.

They pulled off a good know, a good scam and he still has the job, but it's just, well, you know, you shouldn't, it's, it's just too good a game to be, you know, playing all the shenanigans and in the back door. Well, a big part in unpacking all this for me is just, I keep coming back to the structure of the tour being a huge hindrance and leaving it vulnerable to, you know, there's 200 members, there's all these opinions as member on organization, it's not really designed with maximum media value and entertainment value designed. It's not what the

charter is not what the you know, the mission statement of the tour is. And it does seem like and I want to relate this back to, you know, it seems just like an antiquated setup that never got fixed, corrected, modernized in some way. And it was kind of put into place around the time, you know, a little bit before your time, but you were a part of this, you were a part of a tour that was a little,

a way smaller scale. It was an event to event, city to city kind of thing that was kind of strung together in one tour, but it wasn't massively sold as this big media project and it just doesn't seem to really make sense to keep this kind of same structure to me, you know, and have these massive television deals and try to create this entertainment product when playing opportunities is more important on the underlying level. I wouldn't expect you to talk to you about this today, but you brought this up and I'm curious to get your input on that.

Well, you know, it's, it's for instance, like, you know, the tax credit that they get their so-called eligible for, you know, pretty much every legal mind I've ever talked to said, you know, this is how things were done back in the day. You know, they kind of scratched their back and there's no way they should have this as the other sports who have it, you know, they, you know, they just kind of looked at it and said, you know, they're good for the, for the game. They're good for the, you know, the United States, you know, again, whether it's football or baseball or any of these, you know, and since now,

you fast forward the lip thing hits and now they're, they're branching out to a for profit. You know, it know, it's a tough, and to which I really can't honestly say I have an answer one way or the other. You know, I don't know all everything there is in terms of that part of the tour and the structure, but that's why you get the brightest brains and you get them together and if we needed to make change, this should have been made a long time ago.

You know, and you know, we needed to make change, this should have been made a long time ago. You know, and you have to make change as time flies by. That's how it works in life. Yeah, it's way too reactive. I mean, this threat was existing for a long time and nothing happened on that front, but that's a conversation for another. We could go down a whole different rabbit hole, but you mentioned this number, 31 fines, I think you said.

Can you give us an example of what are some of the things you get fined for and which ones you agreed with and which ones are petty? Quite honestly I deserve some of them. I won't deny that. I do deserve some of them. For instance the 92 US Open was at Pebble Beach and the greens had just rattled my brains. You know, this is the day back in Spike Marks and the greens were, you know, bumpy and fast and just really hard to pot. You know, not like, you know, they're much better now. But so I was well known for deposit and putters throughout the country and lakes and ponds and oceans.

So I decided that I was going to unload this one. And so on 18, I'd become a much more mature person. I decided to go around, you know, the huge scoreboard that's there, the manual one. I go around it so nobody will see me. And then I just gave the platter the heave-ho of the century. And the only person that saw me was the guy in the back

of the scoreboard thing. And it was putting up the numbers. And wouldn't you know, he writes a letter in. And so I got fined. Now the greatest I believe story or although I didn't get fined for this particular one was also at Pebble Beach.

I finished on the ninth hole one year. This is when we're playing the AT&T. Again, the greens had rattled my brain and it was time for this potter and I to, you know, divorce. So I go over to the edge of there and I just, another heave-ho. Now it's a long way to the ocean, you know know you got to go over the beach and all that and but I made it a good 20 yards into the ocean it was an impressive throw so the very next year this couple comes up to me talks to me says we'd love to have your autographs and said sure so they have this big of roll up poster so and it, there's this guy who's in the ocean and he's got his hands up holding the putter that I had tossed the previous year.

He saw me do it. He went down to the ocean. He said it took him 45 minutes to find the putter. But that's probably my most memorable quote autograph that I'll, I mean, I just won't forget. That is fantastic. I don't know if you heard of the Arnold Palmer beer and the Lloyd story. I was just getting ready to say,

this was not just unique to the PGA tour. This was at the Masters as well. This one's at the 97 Masters. And as it would happen, I'd shot, I'd accidentally, well, I didn't actually, a friend of mine, I was watching him play basketball. We had rented a house and I went out to watch and the ball rolled under the car.

So I reached under to get it for him. And a friend of mine came out and kind of kidnally gave me a little bump and my thumb went right into the ball and broke the thumb. So I shot 87. It was a bad, you know, I mean I could play. It wasn't great but I could play and I was miserable. I shot 87. So I was going to withdraw thinking this is crazy, you know, I can't play golf like this. And then I found out I was paired with Palmer and because of our ages, we had never played together before. And I really hadn't spent any time with him at all except for, hello, how are you? And so to me this was, you

know, this was a perfect, this is, you know, this was, you know, my idol growing up was Palmer. And so we went out and played and I had a, I can't tell you how good a day I had that day. You know, he's telling me all sorts of stories and you know, I'm asking him everything in the planet. So then on the 15th hole, the rounds come into an end and I had a friend go over and get me a beer because I figured this is my only chance that I'm ever going to have to have a beer with the king. I mean, he's the king. So I went over and said, Arn, this has been a phenomenal day.

Thank you. And I just wanted to have a beer with you because I didn't know if I'd ever have a beer with you. And he said, oh, you should have brought me one. I said, well, even I'm not that forward. But so we get through and I start telling that story. And you know that I mentioned weird things have happened every time I play with a superstar. You know, I said, yeah, I don't know why

it just has, whether you know it's Seve or you know I got the Jack Nicklaus story was phenomenal. And you know, I said that you that the Ray Floyd story was unique. He was, I think my quote was, he was a dirtball to play with until he cheated and then he was great. And I said that without even thinking. Trust me, he's not a cheater but he took a bad drop because he was pissed one in Miami. He literally didn't say a word to us for 10 holes. And then hit the shot to the par 5 and pull hooks it. Never even steps carrying the water.

He ends up dropping up there. I'm playing with a great friend of mine, Bob Boyd, but you know, we're like rookies. You know, we're not, you know, we're not going to. We're the very first group up on Sunday. Floyd is pissed because that's his fifth major because he was, you know, that's where he lived. And, you know, for him to be in the first group on Sunday, he's miserable. And, uh, but, you know, I don't, I don't have that in my head back then. I'm 23 years old or whatever.

So, you know, I didn't put two and two together. My friend is just besides himself. He's from the Carolinas. He's got this southern accent and he goes, right? What are we gonna do? The Masters, PGA Champions, Chaiting Grades, Chaiting. It's like, I don't know what the hell we're gonna do. I mean, and it's amazing. My friend is so rattled, he shanked his wedge shot. No way. So he makes the seven. Floyd hit it up there about 50 feet and he makes the putt. So he makes the par. So, know, my friend is about to lose his marbles. So on the next hole, Floyd hits it in there about six feet. And three jacks it. So now we're walking up the little hill to the next tee, and it's Bob, Ray, and me. And without looking at me or anything, he just goes, deserves the blank blank right for cheating. And I was like, oh boy.

So now we're in the middle of the fairway and I think the light bulb probably went off on Ray and he probably looked back and goes, oh, you know, maybe I didn't drop right or something. But, and then he was like nicest guy in the world for seven holes. So that's what I meant. I wasn't calling him out for cheating because he's not. You know, he just made a dumb mental, you know, he was pissed error.

But you know, the savvy thing happened in the 89 Masters where he tried to, well, he literally tried to cheat. Well, take us, yeah, assume that we don't know these stories because some of these are new to me as well. 89 Masters, we're in the third or fourth to last group. We have a chance, but we have to play a great round. Seve plays flawless. I mean, just flawless. He shoots 31 on the front and now he's tied for the lead. And he overcooks it on 10 and over hooks it left. And so I was curious as to if he had a shot. So I walked down that way and I got there. His ball's in a little mini ruck like this and I'm like well he's got to pitch out towards me. So I walked down towards my ball

and I'm looking back waiting for him to you know pitch it out. All of a sudden I see him dropping. I'm like dropping? What's he dropping for? So I will walk my little butt all the way back up there and I don't know if most people are aware of this but the Master has a rules official on every every hole. So I got there and immediately the official says well you may not know this but here in Augusta we have this rule local rule called crowd damage. If we feel your lie has been affected by crowd damage we can give somebody a drop and I was like no, no, no, no, no, this isn't getting the drop. And the only reason I knew this is because on the second hole, I had gone for the green and pushed it where people were, and it was wet, it was a wet masters.

So it was all mud and milk, you know, just crusted little holes. My ball went in one of those holes, and I tried to get a lie, and I wasn't given one. And it was clearly crowd damage, but I wasn't given one because well, well, it's not as big as I was getting great. So I said, no, I want, I want another, I want another role. You know, this is so we're waiting and waiting. And then Seve looks at me and goes, Ken, you can go. You know, it's not like I'm going to cheat or anything. And I just said, I'm not so sure about that, Seth.

You know, so now the crowd was like, woo, woo, you know. And so we waited. And the official Michael Balalek, I think his last name was, the president of the RNA and all that, he got within 10, 15 feet of it, he said, put it back. You know, that's just who Seve was. I mean, Seve knew it wasn't crowd damage, but he also knew he had a way with people and he would try to intimidate you.

And so that's how it was. And then, so then he punched out and he kind of just kind of lost it. That was pretty much it. But it you know, it's just one of those things. It's just weird things happen when I play with superstars for the first time. And what was the Jack Nicklaus story then you referenced? Oh, that was a good one. Jack was this was 1982. My very first

year on tour. And I had qualified for my very first US Open and it's two ironically was at Pebble Beach. So I had signed up as the four of us were gonna go out and play so we put our name down there so we show up and somehow there's five of us I don't know who one of us screwed up I don't know which one so I just said to these guys, he said, listen you guys, you guys go ahead. I'll, something will happen. And the starter there says, geez, Mr. Green, you know, the sheet's full.

So, well, we'll see what happens. We'll, you know, we'll go from there. So I'm waiting and I'm waiting. And then all of a sudden it was like a mob of people all over the place on the first hole. And I'm like, holy, what the hell is this all about? Well, all of a sudden I see this guy kind of pushing people away and this

and Tom Weiskopf walks out. And I go, oh, Tom Weiskopf, okay, Tom Weiskopf. And then all of a sudden I just see people themselves just move out of the way, like Moses was coming or something. And it was Jack Nicholas. I'm like, oh Jack Nicklaus. So Jack says hello to the starter and the starter says hello and the starter says do

you have a tea time Mr. Nicklaus? And Jack says no and the starter says well you're on the tea. And I'm like okay that's Jack Nicklaus. He deserves that. I'm like, you know, that's good. And then all of a sudden he goes, excuse me, Mr. Nicklaus. Young Mr. Ken Green is looking for a time. Would you mind? And I'm like, no, no, no. No, I do not want to play with that. And, you know, Jack was said, yes, absolutely. My knees were literally shaking. All I could think about on the tee shot was please don't let Jack see that my knees are shaking.

Cause they were, they were shaking. It was, I was petrified. Had an absolute blast with him. He was wonderful. He couldn't have been nicer. And, uh, on the 15th hole, he disappears. We're playing 16. Uh, and we go to 16T,

and I'm like, Tom, are we supposed to continue? Where'd he go? Bah, screw him. Who knows where he went? Okay, so we hit off, and then just as we're getting off the tee, he comes up, and he's got four peach ice cream cones in his hand, which was, peach ice cream was his flavor,

and he knew that there was an ice cream stand there that which was peach ice cream was his flavor. And he knew that there was an ice cream stand there that sold the peach ice cream. So I thought that was pretty wild that Jack Nichols bought me an ice cream cone. So now we've got, you know, probably 5,000 people watching us. We get to 18 and Tom hits a bullet. Jack hits another bullet, a little left of Tom. And they're out there in the fairway, and Tom's over the ball. And he looks at Jack, looks at him, because I'm standing next to Jack.

And he looks at him and says, Hey, Tom, Eagles for dinner. And Tom says, Sure. He gets over the ball, and then he backs off. He goes, Wait a minute. You have your your whole you have your whole effing family here and Jack just smiles and Tom says fine I'll do it and Tom hits this great shot he had like 255 to carry which again back in those days was a nightmare sure he flies it in the bunker just misses well Jack had 253 and he pulls out a one iron. I look at my caddy,

here I am, a rookie, and I look at my caddy and I say, what is he thinking about? He's got no chance of getting a one iron that far. You know, here I am telling my guy that Jack doesn't know what the hell he's doing. And Jack gets this one iron that I will never forget. This is what, 40 some odd years later. And this thing went straight up in the air, flew 254 and rolled up a couple of them and about 30 feet and he makes the pop. It was a magnificent day. The great thing about it is I got to play with Jack when it wasn't in a tournament. He could be kind of himself versus that laser focus that you have sometimes in tournaments. So that was wonderful. And then Palmer, also, technically it was a tournament, but we knew it's not like we were gonna do anything.

So it was the memories that I have for the 20 years that I was out there, whether it's the wins or the Ryder Cup or the stories, like the ones I just told you, are just, I mean, you couldn't ask for a better life. I mean, I know I've had a lot of ugly bad things happen in life, but I've had a lot of good things and I can't complain. What happened after the beer incident at Augusta? Did you get reprimanded for that and how did you weasel out of that one? Yeah, I got that pretty hard. The max fine back then was 3,000,

and I was gonna get suspended, but I had a friend write in saying it was a non-alcoholic beer, so he rescinded that portion of the fine, but I still got the 3,000 fine because the tour has this vague rule about conduct on becoming and they felt that I, you know, I belittled another player and, you know, but again it was during the peak of the lawsuit so I

got nailed whenever I wanted. I remember I played in Japan and I sat down with Lanny and Craig Stadler. Now we know Lanny had a pretty good reputation for, you know, slamming the clubs and all that. Stadler would, you know, he'd bury him in the clubs, in the ground and all that. And you know, here I'm getting these fines left and right. And this was the same year that I got fined for our practice round. I wanted to find out how many fines they had, you know, received over all the years. I figured they were up there pretty good. And Lanny looks at me and goes, what are you talking about?

I've only been fined once. I'm like, well, what do you mean you've only been fined once? He says, yeah. He says, but I deserved it. It was my own fault. I broke a T-marker. I'm like, wait a minute, let's get back to you've only been fine once.

And I was just stunned. So then I look at Stads, like bigger, and all right, he's the one that really buries the clubs in and bangs them. And how many times you've been fine? I've never been fine. I was like, what do you mean you've never been fine? What are you talking about?

You guys are like two of the hotheads out here, and you have one fine? And at that time, I was like on number 28 or whatever it was. But again, I go back to I can't complain. It's been a great ride. Well, surely that's the only stunt you ever pulled at Augusta, right? There's nothing else you would have ever tried at Augusta.

I've got some good ones at Augusta. Ironically, that same year, 1989, for those people who don't know, you get so many family passes, which were eight, and then you could buy eight. So you're allowed basically 16 passes. And you get eight of them when you get there. And then the family passes are sent to your home. And I had played the week before, so my wife was gonna meet me at Augusta.

Now for the first time, she had a third of them were her family members to come in for the first time. Well, we ended up having some sort of argument, which I couldn't even tell you what it was about. And she decides she's not coming. Oh my God, fine. If you don't want to come, don't come. That's all right.

Just FedEx up the tickets. No, I'm not doing it. What do you mean you're not doing it? We gotta have the... No, I'm not doing it. Well, every one of her family members tried to talk her in. She wouldn't send them. Wouldn't send them. Wouldn't send them. Wouldn't send them.

So I finally get to the point where I know she's not sending them. So I decided to go in into the office and just tell Hordhardt the truth. Figured, you know, he's married. We've all, you know, people have fights. So I go in there and just lay it all out, telling the truth, again, hoping, I said, you know, I'd really appreciate it if you could let me buy eight more. I'll never forget it, and this is a quote,

"'No, get better control of your wife.' That's it." So now I'm screwed. I got, we got nothing. That's it. So now I'm screwed. We got nothing. So the first day I sneak everybody in, we go back and forth in the car and we sneak them in and... Where do you sneak them in?

Where are they riding? Well, the first day they rode in the car in the seat like normal people. And I gave the eight youngest, I didn't give the tick list, figuring they had a better chance of moving around without getting caught. Well, her brother gets caught. And he panics and he rats me out, saying I'm here with Ken Green.

You know, instead of just saying, yeah, I just stuck on and got caught, send me my way. And so now the next day they searched, they're checking all the badges when I full pull in. So then when I go back to get the other group of guys, cause I had to make three trips back and forth, we're hiding them under the seat with blankets. We got a couple in the trunk and we, we just kind of move her in and we pulled it off. And it was a great trunk escape.

And it was a unique story. But it's weird because considering that I've never won the Masters, I've got a lot of weird stories. And some people may know about, you know, when they watch the par three tournament on Wednesday, all the kids have the little bibs and they're caddying for, well, I was the first one to do that. But I got letters from Ward Arden and telling me not to do it anymore. You know, and now they have the kids doing it for everyone.

Actually the owner of the bib company actually called me about three years ago and wanted to thank me because he knew I was the one that started this and his company is flourishing because he has the bibs and once you have the bib company for Augusta, you get everybody. Sure. So that was my one claim to fame. My next was my sister was the first female caddy there. And she was the first female caddy on tour ever. And then the next is, you've seen the skip shots they do on 16. You know, I think Rom had a hole in one, you know, a few years back. Well, I was the first one to start that. And I got letters telling me not to do it anymore.

So, you know, I'm, I'm kind of disappointed that I don't have a plaque somewhere, you know, a little, little Ken Green skipper plaque or something, but it's, uh, it's, uh, there's a lot of stories out of Augusta. Yeah. Geez. You got, I be, we could, I don't think we can cover all your stories that we have in the time we have today,

but take us back before, I guess I don't know when exactly this is, sometime in the early 80s, I think it is, how you, at some point in your career, either just to get started, but how you uniquely finance some of your early days on the PGA Tour. Well, the first few years I had sponsors from my hometown who were,

you know, nice enough to put up some money and get me out there. And but after the third year, you know, I hadn't, you know, I kept my car, but I wasn't, you know, really making money because, you know, the travel expenses. And back then we played for nothing. I mean, our purse, our whole purse was $300,000. Let me think about that. Here I am in Florida in January trying to figure out where I'm going to get my money to start the tour. And I don't have maybe $2,000 in my name. And so I did what anybody would do when they're on their last row and hoping.

And I literally know zero about basketball, but I started betting basketball games. And I won 23 out of 24 games. I mean, think about that, that's just stupid. And that's how I got started, you know my tour and ended up winning a tournament that year and every you know never had a problem ever, you know sense it was just I Mean you just can't think of it 23 out of 24 Insane just for those of those who don't believe in the little help from above,

I had to have help. That's the only way I can look at it. That's incredible. That really is an incredible story. It just was such a different time, man. I can't get enough of stories of that time of what the tour was like and hearing all of those. We can't cover your whole career here, but how did your kind of career evolve? Where when did when did things like start not going well for you and kind of your transition into in a champion's tour golf? I'm just kind of curious. I've heard you refer to demons a lot on the golf course and in the mental side of golf I'm just curious if you can kind of take me through some of the harder times out playing pro golf Like I said, it took a few years to finally You know, you could say mature understand the game get a little better Like I said, it took a few years to finally,

you could say mature, understand the game, get a little better. After my second year, I realized I needed some swing fixes because I'd never had a lesson in my life. And I tracked down Peter Casas, who I was his first student and it worked out great. And he helped me, you know, tremendously. You know, and then, you know, one in 85, I won two events in 85. I won another one in 86, another one in 87, a couple in 88, another in 89,

another one in 90, you know, things were great. And then went through a really bad divorce. She played with the games with the kids unfortunately and that's where the demons came about when you know I had arrest warrants because you know I couldn't get enough money there so I couldn't get back to the state and you know that's where all the demons go when you start pressing to make money. And it became a basket case and eventually fell

into a massive depression and everything. And even, have you ever heard about suicide, Len? I don't know if I have. Yeah, really bad depression. And so I decided I had enough, There's enough, this is enough. And I don't know how this happens. I literally took a whole bottle of pain pills and a bunch of other pills and the rest of the story comes from my girlfriend and we had a lab called Coco and my girlfriend was sleeping on the couch and she kept

trying to wake her up and kept waking her up and she kept pushing her away and pushing her away and pushing her away and she eventually takes my girlfriend's shoulder and pulls her off the couch. Now she's pissed at this point so the dog comes running in, jumps on me. And when Sue came in, that's when she realized something was wrong. So I'm real. I'm I'm alive today because of what that dog did. But, you know, that's where, you know, the demons were there. I mean, I, you know, I'm a firm believer that everybody has them,

but most of the time they don't come out, you know, unless you get into these depressed states or, you know, ugly times. Was a lot of it because of the bad stuff that happened in Honduras? I could talk to a therapist for a year and I don't know if you get the right answers and all the different things that have happened. Golf is a brutally hard game. And if you have any little mini demons in there, any thoughts that get you thinking of everything but the right things,

you have zero chance in golf. And that's pretty much what happened to me. That's pretty much why I lost my card. I don't think I lost my card. I think I was 43. You know, I probably, if I didn't have those demons and then the depression, I probably would, you know, stay another four or five years before the champion store like, you know, any other of the good players that play the game. But it's uh, and then that goes,

you know, another story about the gambling and stuff. Now I'm basically broke again because story about the gambling and stuff. Now, I'm basically broke again because of everything that has transpired. So there's times when I had rest warrants and I went to Vegas when I was in between tournaments one year. So I was good friends with Steve Wynn and Mike Pascoe's brother-in-law, more Mike. And I'm sure you've heard of Shadow Creek. Well, Shadow Creek back then was just stupid nice. I mean, you know, not many players, he only had this high rollers of high rollers that would play.

So I was out there for a whole week, did not place one bet because I didn't have any money to really bet. And you know, I'm trying to make some money. But I did gamble on the golf course because you can control that. I felt like I could win. I ended up winning $800 for the week. So the night before I leave, I decide I'm going to take that $800 and give it a whirl.

Two or three hours later, I've got $105,000. Whoa. And everything was just going right. You're playing blackjack and boom, boom, boom, boom. And besides winning the money, now I can pay the money I owed here and get back and see my son. And that happened two other times where once I went and gambled and one time I owed $27,000 and as soon as I got to $27,000 I stopped and then there was another time that

it was $18,000 and I've just been lucky and to this day I don't gamble because I feel like they've been so nice to me upstairs that I don't want to go. It's just part of that wild ride that I've been on. Yeah, I mean, it is a truly insane ride. And if you could detail or kind of take us to, in 2009, you're living in a mobile home, I believe at this point, and you've been there living in that for several years, and you have a horrible accident. I'm wondering if you could tell us about that. Yeah, well, you know, I just turned 50. So, you know, I was getting ready to play the senior tour and got off to a decent start, you know, considering I hadn't really played competitive golf. You know, I don't know, I made

180 grand or whatever it was. And so, you know, this was the, this was my chance to get healthy, good, you know, where we could have enough money to survive and all that. And so, you know, this was the, this was my chance to get healthy again, you know, where we could have enough money to survive and all that. And we're actually coming back from a tournament. My wife was from Greensboro at that time. We were going from Austin to Greensboro and we had stopped halfway. And my brother was caddying for me and, and, Jeannie and my German Shepherd, which you can kind of see here. That's another story. I went to the back to sleep and the

last thing I remember is hearing this boom and I assume it was the tire blowing, the tire blew and they just lost total control of an RV and we went flying down this embankment and just crashed into the Mississippi swamp and they were killed instantly. I must have gotten up because I was thrown out of the front window. Most of my body went out one side of the window and my right leg went out the other side, where there's a pole in the middle, and that's where I ended up losing my leg because it just pretty much shattered everything there.

And so we ended up having to cut the leg off. And obviously it ends the senior career, so to speak, but it's a tough blow you know you lose you lose two people you love dearly and uh but you know you i'm a again i don't know you know some people believe in god some don't i'm not a religious man in the sense of you know following certain religions and you know with all that kind of stuff, but I firmly believe. And you gotta decide, you know, either you live a pity party or you get back up, you shake your head and you keep going.

And you do whatever you can. And that was my hope. It was a killer, you know, about six months later I lost my son. That one was... You don't expect to lose someone that's 20 years old and your child and college booze and mixture of some drugs. That one hurt because you just don't. But again, you got to tell yourself, all right, get back up keep going get back up keep going

You know, so that's what I'm that's what I keep doing and you know, I just I just I just I just keep going every day I try to just Do what I can you know and you know If I can be a better person at the end of this year than I was last year then then I'm doing good things You know, you got to always you a reason, you got to have a purpose, whatever it is. It's different for everybody, but you got to have a reason to do things, in my opinion. That's how I try to live. It's tricky. I don't know if you've ever heard of a disease called CRPS. I never had either. And unfortunately, I contracted it from the accident.

Didn't get diagnosed until about three years ago properly. It's a nerve disorder and it's nasty. If anybody's bored and wants to read something, it is nasty. And so, you know, I'm fighting a lot of pain, but you just again, you just, you just get yourself back up and you keep going. This next part of the podcast is about what Ken revealed in his book in 2019 and also what is exorbitant in golf digest. The book is called Hunter of Hope. And in the book, he details how he was sexually abused as a kid in Honduras. It's something that he's shared in the past and wanted to share to raise awareness, which we discuss in this

interview but it is obviously an understandably quite difficult for him to talk about. He refers to some incidents here without detailing them and I'm not going to lay out all the details that he has written about in the past but I do want to add just a bit of context to what he's referring to before you listen. I think it will make more sense once you do hear it. Summarizing it, it's again a very awful topic and very difficult to even summarize, but he was abused by several men beginning when he was 11 years old. They demanded that he not share the details of the abuse with his parents. They beat him. He had to lie to his mom about where welts were coming from. And after two

years of living in Honduras, his mother's relationship with his father was beyond repair. She set out and moved back to Connecticut. He was threatened by the men that abused him and he was told he needed to stay there or they would kill his father. Again, he references this and what we're about to discuss, but the details are obviously difficult for him to cover. The story goes on and on, it's awful. The abuse would take place when his father would be passed out from excessive alcohol use and he also refers to how his days in Honduras ended. After a particularly gruesome attack, he saw his attacker sleeping in his own bed and picked

up a rock and quote, hit him with the rock as hard and for as long as I could muster the strength. He obviously talks about this as I could muster the strength. He obviously talks about this as well here in the coming part. It's of course very difficult for him. So not all the details there are present, but I hopefully, hopefully this adds just a bit of context. Again, incredibly difficult story to tell, tough for him to relive, difficult to hear, difficult for me to ask about. But here is him discussing his time in Honduras. In 2019, I believe you wrote a book about your life and about some of the things that you've gone through.

I want to start a tough part of the conversation with just and we'll kind of back into some of the details that you shared in that book. But a big part of this was a secret you kind of held on to for not kind of a secret that that you held onto for many, many years. First, I wanna start with what has it been like since you came out with what you detailed in that book? And we'll get into the detail, but I'm first curious to kind of hear

what kind of release you've gotten out of this and what kind of progress has been made potentially in your life since coming out and sharing your story. Well, you know, it was, people have been wanting me to write something because I've been such a wild run. And of course, they didn't know about Honduras. I was hesitant.

I mean, you just, you know, I mean, it's, I know this part's going to sound bizarre. I was petrified about the idea that people would know some of the things that I had to do. And it wasn't about the ending when I whacked them with the rocks and stuff. But I was more petrified about people knowing what I'd done, you know, what I had to do. You know, you're 12 years old and you just... That's what I was most petrified about.

I was afraid that I'd be wondering and I'd be having conversations with people and I'm petrified even now. Are they thinking about what I had to do? I know that's warped, but that's just the God's honest truth. You think back and you wonder, was I really that naive or that dumb? My father had a friend that lived with us that went down to Honduras with us.

And he's the one that first started with all the sexual games. And I, you know, I look back on it and I'm like, again, how could you have been so dumb? But I trusted him. I thought, he basically told me that he was there to teach me and help me. And that was his job as being a close friend.

And I believed it. and help me and that was his job as being a close friend. I believed it. I didn't, it wasn't until more people got involved and it got ugly and physical and that's when I realized things were wrong. And my mom had left after two years and I was told I couldn't go home with her. I'll never forget the look on my mom's face when I told her I wanted to stay with my dad.

I mean it's been in my head for 50 years now and then that year got awful, and things just finally blew up one night. It's not like I planned on anything. It just happened what happened. Then I had to basically wake them up. I'll never forget, he put me on a plane the very next day. And you know, he used to call me kid. And he's like, kid, I'm sorry.

You did nothing wrong. And don't ever tell a living soul. And I, I've kept it shut until I opened it up. And it's, you know, I'm glad I did, even though I still struggle a little with it more than I anticipated. But I have helped a lot of people. You know, they've, you know, I've had conversations with other, you know, basically males, because the males just aren't going to tell anybody. I don't know if it's just like our DNA, we just can't.

Makes us feel, I don't know, but so many men don't tell anybody what's happened in their life. But I got to talk to a lot of them and a lot of them have opened up since they saw my interviews and stuff and since we talked. So that part makes it good that you were able to do all that. It just really, it's kind of warped how people are. How do you do that to a young kid? I mean, the Ken Green that I was supposed to be or gonna be is never, he's gone.

That changes you forever. And you deal with it, but it's not right. Can only speak for myself in terms of my reaction to it. At no point it was it, or the immediate reaction was just sympathy. It was at no point of, was it, how could you not know? How could you, the feelings you're feeling are not expected for any, someone that age. You don't have world experience.

You don't know. Like you just, you can't possibly know it. At no point did I, you know, how could, was I thinking, how could you not know it's just you that I was. No, everyone tells me that. But that's, you know, that's what, you know, one, it's such a, a vile situation when it gets done to, you know, the girls and the boys and it's, and it's way, it happens way too often. And because it is such a terrible topic, it's like nobody wants to talk about it or nobody wants to sit down and let's do something

about this, you know, because it's just too hard to think about and not enough is done. And, you know, I wish I could do more. I wish I had more power or fame or whatever you would need, I don't know. But it's just wrong. It just, it's wrong. There's no other way around it.

It really is. And the only thing I can speak onto this is you are doing something about it, right? You're raising awareness to me today, reading about it to everybody listening and to, you know, to, to be on the lookout for these things. I'm wondering if you have any, you know, organizations that you've worked with, you know, since since coming out with this, with this

story or any ways people can get involved to help in any way. Yeah, there's, there's, you know, it's weird, because I've, I've actually tried to get involved and I really thought that there would be an organization that would say, hey, not that I'm famous, but I'm more famous than most that go through this. Let's put it that way. And why not? But I haven't really been able to lock in with anybody yet. I'm still hoping, because like I said, I would love to try to get some new laws passed. And we're living in an age now where we're giving everybody even bigger breaks

to do illegal things. So I don't even know what they would consider. But the punishment should be a lot harder than they are. You'll never stop it 100%. I get all that. But if you make some of the punishments hard enough, those guys, then it's mostly guys that are on the edge of doing that to young boys and girls.

You can stop a lot of them if the crime is, if the punishment's bad enough. And, you know, I'm not saying it's akin to murder because you're still alive. But like I said before, you're not the person, you're not you. Whoever you were going to be is gone. Yeah. Your life is forever changed because of that. Well, I appreciate you sharing your story about that as well. And you mentioned a story I wanted to make sure we got as well. What's on your shirt about your dog? This is a story that's been told over the years.

But for those that aren't familiar with your dog, Nip. Yeah, that's a gator and a dog. Nip, talking about a dog who's gone through a hard time herself, the dog I lost in the accident. We were playing ball in the backyard. I threw up, I hummed a racquetball and she jumped up to get it and it caught her canine and literally flew about 30 yards

into the middle of the canal. Now, I've lived there 18 years and I'd seen one gator, it might have been about this big, it was just, you know, there was never any gator stuff. And so I'm like, you know what, she's due for a bath because the canal water is dirty. So, you know, I snapped my fingers which meant she could go get it. So she comes back at me and takes off running, leaps over the five foot fence just flying, runs a few more yards and just takes this big jump

into the canal, makes this big splash. Well literally one second later there's another splash. And I was like, oh my God, please tell me that's not what I think of this. So now I go running and I'm at the edge of the water now. And here's, I've got Nip swimming with the ball in her mouth and this gator is coming from the other angle. And I'm like, oh boy, how am I gonna do this?

My original thought was if I can run and jump, maybe I can reach the gator and scare it or whatever. Well, I didn't, I don't know why I didn't, but I did. So then I waited to see if Nick could avoid her or something and the gator got her and disappeared. And I jumped in the water and I'm neck high and I'm waiting maybe, it could have been 30 seconds, it could have been 60, I really don't know how long.

It seemed like an eternity. And there was no movement. You know, I'm expecting, you know, some, you know, and then out of nowhere about 20 feet from me, the gator's tail and back pop up. And she's drowning nip with, you know, with her, with her, her jaws. So I literally walk at a slow pace to get there because I didn't want to startle anything. I literally got within inches of the, of, of the gator

trying to figure out what to do. My first thought was maybe I could reach around the stomach and just hold on and hope that the gator was too fat, was too big. I'll never forget the size of his back right foot because that's what I was right on top of. And so I decided, all right, I'm going to reach around the tail and I'm going to punch him in the stomach and just hope. I did not have a plan. I was just winging it. And all I remember was she lets go of the dog, the mouth comes up wide open and comes flying back at me.

And obviously couldn't reach because I didn't have the flexibility. But as soon as it hits the water, we go into this massive roll. And I don't know if I held on for two or 10, based on all the cut marks and the bruised ribs I had. I held that a long time, I'll give myself credit. And then finally I pop up, now I'm swimming at this point,

and I'm looking all over the place. And Nip is almost into the water. And literally about 15 feet from me, the gator's just looking at me. And it was like, I don't know why it didn't come after me, because it had me, I had no chance. And I started swimming towards Nip and rushed her to the emergency clinic and two days, she almost died from all the water when she was being drowned.

Ended up with about 26 or 27 stitches. But everything went our way. I mean, if the gator had just slid in the water, not making a noise, she would have been dead. If the gator doesn't get her exactly in between her feet and her back feet, you know, she would have been dead. And then if the gator comes back and me, I would have been dead. And everything went our way because this, this was a big boy. So it was, uh, you know, again, whether you believe in upstairs or potluck, it's up to you to believe it. Um, somebody, somebody was helping me out.

Wow. Well, I don't know how to transition out of, uh, a lot of the stories that you've just told us, but, uh, you got to play in my favorite golf event, which is the rider cup, 1989 at the belfry. Take us, take us back to like that time period. Take us back to what the rider cup was like then. It's a huge commercial event now and everybody was in the same tour. It's done a little crazy, you know, and against the, the love of money, you know, they have too many people out there and it's too many people to watch just four groups and it's a corporate show and you know it's about money, you know, it wasn't that way back then, I mean to a little bit

it was, but you know what I tell people is players like each other now, you know they know each other, you other, they're all buddies. They're still grinding their tails off. But what I tell you that there was about five of our guys that despised five of their guys. And vice versa. The Follows, well no Follows didn't play, but you had Langer and Seve and Sandy Lyle. Those guys. And, you know, we had our Curtis Strings and Laneys and Toms

that weren't real thrilled with those guys. So it was intense. It was what I try to explain to people is, if you can imagine the last nine holes of trying to win a tournament, you know, that pressure jumps up. Literally, at the Ryder Cup, it's every tournament, you know, that pressure jumps up. Literally at the Ryder Cup, it's every day, you know, right from the get-go on that first tee on Friday, you get that feeling of whoa, this is intense. And, you know, but as golfers, that's what you love. I mean,

I had a blast. I was thrilled with the way I played. I played really well in three matches. Played like a pig in the fourth match. And it was tight. We ended up tying, which I don't like. I don't know what you think about it, but I don't understand the tie. And the team that won it two years ago gets the credit.

I mean, either call it a tie or have a playoff, damn it. You know, stop pussy putting things around. It just makes no sense to me. But the intensity was something that I'll never forget. It's, I'm just, I'm lucky to have been a part of it. I really wish I had been a part of more, but that's, you know, things started falling apart for me from that point.

But it's a treasure I'll never, never ever forget. What do you remember about that team room or some of those guys you got to play with? You obviously get to see a different side your teammates with guys like Paul Aizinger and then Tom Kite, Mark Kalkoveckian, guys that you're friendly with. Because some of the stars didn't know me and you know again because of my reputation were. They didn't go out of their way you know like you know like Lanny and Tom and and and

both times Watson and kite but I I play golf all the time with with Cal and page store you know and those guys so I mean I knew some of them, but I didn't know others we were in the in the our little player room kind of introducing ourselves or telling some stories and and it was like You know, I remember getting up and you know, it's like well some of you know me some of you don't and I don't know What you know and you know what you've heard but it's uh, you know and of you know me, some of you don't, and I don't know what to know and what you've heard. But it's an N3 or 4, and so, well,

we don't know about you either, and we're not sure we wanna know about you. It's like, but it was fun. Because we're single all the time, we're grinding it out ourselves, it's good to have that release where you're with somebody, you know, you're fighting for a reason. In our case, it was the country and the Ryder Cup, but it's just

something you'll never forget. And some of the guys I ended up getting closer to and a couple others pretty much didn't know them again. It's just how it works. Because relations between the two tours, they weren't exactly chummy at that time if I understood right. No, well see what people don't remember is one of the reasons we didn't like each other because we didn't think they were being very cooperative is we felt that they should play a minimum tournaments and they wanted to be able to come over whenever they wanted. And so that was the big fight.

Should they have to play 12 events? Which back then, the majors counted and the TPC counted. So they really only had to play seven events. So in our mind, we couldn't understand why you can't come over here and play seven times, you know, the week before a major, two weeks. It's not like you want to just fly over for the majors. And then, you know, egos, you know, back then it was a clash of, you know, who was the best player on the planet, you know, who wasn't, you know, was it Curtis, was it, you know,

was it Sandy Lila, was it Seve, you know, was it Watson, you know, was it Curtis? Was it, you know, was it Sandy Lila? Was it Seve? You know, was it Watson? You know, that kind of stuff. And it was, it was genuine dislike, you know, it was unfortunate. I mean, I remember one night, Calc and I ended up playing snooker, which I had never even played. And we played Woosnum and Clark got

our ass kicked. You know, Calc and I are pretty good pool players, but we had never played the snooker before it is a different world. You know, we had a blast. I mean, but you know, the male ego is the male ego. And when you get super studs like that, it's hard. Well, we'll wrap it with this. But can you tell us a little bit about your relationship with the game of golf as an amputee and kind of your involvement with adaptive golf and seeing the US?

Yeah, that's one thing I've been happy with. You know, lately, I've been trying to get more involved with the adaptive golf and, you know, helping and doing whatever I can because that's, again, I'm that perfect figure because of what I used to do. So, you know, we're trying to get out there more. And, you know, when the USGA started their first one two years ago,

it was a really big step for our country, getting it together and understanding that you can still play golf. This is just an estimate, but there's an estimate of about three or four million golfers in the US that are in that adaptive world in one way or the other, whether it's a leg, an arm, or whatever injury it may be, to let them know that they can get out there and still play golf. It's good to have a reason to go play golf.

Golf can be it. It's hard. You can do some of the other stuff. Look at the Paralympics. They play basketball and they're beating on each other pretty hard. Golf is there and something you can do. You know, until you go belly up, you know, you know, even in a wheelchair, you can only play basketball so long, you know, you know, golf, you can play until you're 7075

80 years old. And, you know, so that's, that's my hope that, you know, I keep trying to do is whatever I can, to, you know, open up the windows for other, you know, adaptive people. Well, we have greatly appreciate hearing your stories. I'm going to be placing my order for one of these as soon as we finish here. But your book is I'm sure there's more stories that we didn't cover in your book. Hunter of hope. There's plenty.

He said it's called Hunter of Hope, a life lived inside, outside and on the ropes by Ken Green, you can find that at kengreeng golf.com. We greatly appreciate your time and sharing your story and telling some stories as well. This was a fantastic time and we thank you for it. Thank you. It's been a pleasure, buddy. Be the right club today. Better than most. How about in?

That is better than most. Better than most! Expect anything different?