No Laying Up - Golf Podcast - NLU Podcast, Episode 94: Zac Blair

Episode Date: August 30, 2017

At long last, Zac Blair has joined the No Laying Up podcast to talk about his 2017 season, and more importantly his love of golf course architecture. We talk about the development of his course,... The post NLU Podcast, Episode 94: Zac Blair appeared first on No Laying Up. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

The FedEx Cup playoffs are rolling on to Boston this week for the Dell Technologies Championship. Follow along at PGA Tour Live, Dustin Johnson, Jordan Speeth, and Justin Thomas paired together and in the featured groups. PGA Tour Live.com just $5.99 a month, subscribe today. I'm not sure that it would be possible that the Steelhead XR3 would from Calloway is possibly better than the sub-zero epic that I'm gaming, but I'm hearing enough about it that I at least want to give it a try. We're going to talk a bit more about this later on in the show for now. Let's get to Zack Blair. Get it right, club.

Be the right club today. That's better than most. Better than most. Better than most. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to the No Laying Up podcast. One, you guys have been asking for and waiting for for a while. First time on either NLU podcast, despite being a loyal follower of No Laying Up, Zach Blair. ZB, how are we doing? Yeah, doing good, man. We're here in Columbus, Ohio. You're here for the nationwide children

hospital, kicking off the web tour finals. You've played the web tour finals before you played the course before what's it like to be back. Yeah, obviously, you'd rather probably be at the Dell championship and the FedEx cut playoffs, but yeah, still golfing for a living, so it's pretty good. You were on the unfortunate, you were the the bubble boy this year, 126 on the FedEx Cup, missing out on the playoffs by barely more than a point. So what was it like on Friday? I guess Friday first you needed to make the cut. You made the cut pretty comfortably, but was there, like, did you feel like you were playing for your life essentially on that Friday?

You know, I was in kind of a situation where I was 120th, so I kind of had five spots to play with, but I knew there were so many people that kind of anything could happen, so I definitely wanted to go out and make the cut, and you know, I made a 30-footer on the last haul to, at that point, feel like I was going to make it, ended up making it. So I knew that it was kind of in my hands if I went out and played well on the weekend that I would kind of, it would be fine and ended up playing kind of one of my worst rounds

of the year, I guess, on Saturday, but that's just kind of how it goes. Because let me, I'm not even sure some people are aware that on the tour that if more than half the people make the cut, then there is another cut to get down below 70 people after Saturday. Yeah. You knew going into Saturday that there was going to be another cut. Yeah, yeah. Anytime more than 78 guys make the cut, they have the secondary cut, which, you know, it's a weird role, but, you know, it used to be, I think, maybe five years ago, ago it used to be if more than 78 guys made the cut

They just made that cut you didn't even get a play on Saturday So you would get paid But you didn't even get a play Saturday so at least you get a chance to kind of go out and you know improve your position But it's just yeah one of those things you may not be the best person to ask But is it is that rule kind of a janky rule to you? I mean, it hurts you the most probably of anyone, but is that something that guys talk about? Like, why do we have this final cut?

You know, I saw some people mention it kind of that next this Sunday after it had kind of unfolded like that, but you know, I wasn't the only one all year that made the cut and didn't get a finish. So there would have been different points kind of all year. I mean, there was more than one secondary cut, so it's just again one of those things, just kind of sucks. Well, I want to get into a lot of different things.

Mostly, I think people want to hear kind of takes on architecture and some of the some of the real passions you have but wanted to kind of first back up and do I mean I could sit here and list your resume what not for people that don't know your background story how you got to the tour what your image or career was like do you have like a way to summarize that in a minute two minutes or anything that kind of gives people a better background on you. I went to BYU, played collegially at Brigham Young University, and went to Q-School as an amateur, made it to final stage, ended up not turning pro right away, went down and played the PGA Tour Latin America for about a half a summer, then was able to get a couple web.com starts that year, played the US Open that same year, and ended up making enough money to kind of reshuffle in and

making the web finals that first year out. And yeah, I played the web finals and took second at the Sawgrass event, ended up getting my card, so it was a pretty unique route. I think I played every tour that the PJ Tour Tour offered in that same year so it was pretty cool. When you went down to the PGA Tour Latino America you played really well, was it pretty evident to you right off the bat that you were on a different level than a lot of those guys and you felt like you were you know should maybe be a level above that almost immediately? Um, you know I didn't play well enough at Q school to feel like that, but I did play

good down in Latin America. I think I had, you know, four or five top fives out of the seven events that I played. So I definitely felt like I was kind of, you know, wasting that good play that I needed to be playing at least on the web.com tour and then Went out and played well on the web for you know about 12 events in a row I think I played like 14 events in a row or something like that and ended up getting my card So it was a nice way to do it. You play a lot of golf. Yeah What's for someone that has a scene you play like what's your game like?

What are you what do you pride yourself on? What? What's your most efficient part of your game? Usually, you know, like my putting and shipping, but the putting kind of hasn't been where I want it to be the last year or two. So I'm looking to get that straightened out and should be ready to roll. I mean, you're definitely not a bomber. Do you, do you feel, or how much of a disadvantage do you feel like on the courses that you play on the PGA tour compared to anywhere any other stops you've been? Yeah, it's kind of one of those things where you know about half of the events I have to be really on is kind of the best way to put

it. It's not I don't look at it as a disadvantage because I feel like I can still compete but I definitely have to be on top of my wedge game and my putting and shipping to kind of be able to hang with a lot of the guys. Your margins for air are just more thin than some of bombers. Exactly. Do you do you feel like you had that anything was different in your game in particular this year you mentioned your putting and shipping wasn't as strong was there anything else that felt like change from prior years where you were able to finish in the top 125? Yeah, honestly, it was just kind of like my putting. My first year out here, and even kind of when I played

on the PGHO or Latin America and in the web.com, I felt like I was putting well. And then that first year out, I felt like I put it well most of the season. And then just the last two years, just silly mistakes, you know, three puts, you know, missing kind of opportunities inside 10 feet. And at least that's a thing that I feel like if I clean up, I've got a lot of room to go up, which is nice. I mean, you played 32 events this season.

Are you just exhausted? I mean, that's 32 events this season. Are you just exhausted? I mean, that's so much golf. Yeah, I mean, I played 35 my rookie year and 33, I think, my second year. So I definitely play a lot, but I like golf and I like to play. It always, so you and I touch, touch, I guess, cross paths of the memorial this year and your practice schedule always interests me. I feel like when you go play somewhere for a tournament, you want to get out to another course in the area. And I think you were talking about trying

to make it out to courses in Columbus. And I think you were at the course that Wednesday morning, you left, and then came back and played a few holes at 6 o'clock. Does your caddy hate you? How do, how does he put up with that schedule? You know, I feel like it's it's better for the caddy sometimes because I kind of give him the whole day to who's your caddy tell us about your caddy. You know, I've had Andy Martinez caddy for me a little bit and but I've had a lot of other guys, a lot of friends, a lot of other Cadi's kind of fill in when he hasn't been able to come out.

But I let him kind of hang out the entire day. I like to go out and play early in the morning and then kind of relax all day when everybody else is out there kind of playing the course and on the range and on the putting green like and stuff like that. And then I like to go out late at night kind of again when nobody's out there. I mean, most people when I ask this on the podcast, they are pretty, try to act pretty cool and say, no, I'm not, but is it safe to say you're a golf nut? Oh, yeah. For sure. That one's always like, no, you know, I'm not a nut. I'm not a golf nut. So you're watching golf on TV when you're, while you play every always like, no, you know, not a nut. I'm not a golf nut. So you're watching golf on TV while you play every week,

essentially, but when you're not playing, you're watching on TV. Oh, yeah, yeah. Like I said, I just really like golf. It's kind of something that I really enjoy. And I like all aspects of it. So yeah, you definitely hear a lot of guys like, how I never watch a golf on TV.

I don't even play when I'm home. And I'm like, I watch golf and I play. Not too cool for it. What is this? So obviously your short-term plans change with your schedule for the fall. Now you're playing the web finals. Does it change anything else for you?

I mean, are you just basically locked in on what's happening over the next few weeks on the web tour? Yeah, you know, I was gonna go play the the Dunhill links again, but that's kind of you know, this whole process is kind of put that in Jappardy a little bit, but yeah, I'm pretty locked in and just go out play good this week, hopefully take care of business and then maybe freeze it up a little bit. What's the biggest difference be freezed up a little bit. What's the biggest difference between playing and competing throughout the course of a season on the web tour versus the PGA tour? I feel like on the PGA tour, maybe the guys are just a little sharper.

Everyone has, I think, the talent to get to the P PJ Tour that's on the web.com tour, you know, or at least most of them, but the guys out on the PJ Tour, I feel like maximize their abilities a little more, you know, they kind of find a way to get it in the hole better than most people. This is because, I mean, it's like I can go and watch a bunch of different players at a tournament and see the different styles that everyone has to get the ball in the hole. And it's always so indecisive or bolt to me as to who the better player is because it varies week to week.

And it's just, I don't know, I don't know how to say it other than like when I watch you guys play, you don't hit every shot perfect, not even close. There's a lot of variance that happens out there. And so I've followed guys like, speed before and then just be like, oh, he's really slapping it around today. And he just shot 68. So what is it? Do you kind of, I guess, I don't know how to have a question related to that, but feel like, you know, there's guys that are just able to find a way to get the ball in the hole sometimes with less talent? Or, I mean, is it boiled down to talent for the most part?

I mean, getting the ball in the hole is a talent. Some people just know how to score. I think that's the best way to describe it. I feel like a lot of people at home, even like my friends, kind of get tricked by the TV coverage. You know, you think these guys hit every shot perfect and make every pot and hit every wedge shot inside of 10 feet, but that's not always the case. Some guys, yeah, slap it around a little bit and somehow you walk away and they shot 68 and you're just like, how did that happen? You know what's it? You know, as good as

your good shots, you're as good as your bad shots or something like that. He had the misses, you know, some guys just like, like, Coocher, you know, he just never is in bad spots and stuff like that. And you hear it all the time and then, then you see an action and you're like, the guy just knows how to score. Speak too, you know, the guy just, he's so smart, he hits it in the right spots, misses it in the right spots, makes pots, doesn't force anything, and all the sudden you think he's kind of slapping it around and he shoots 68, and you're just like, that's a talent. That's cool. Looking back on the season and it's not over, but was there anything you would have done differently? Um... I think, am I right in saying any event that you can get into you playing?

Yeah, for the most part, you know, a lot of it for me is when I'm playing good and I feel like I'm hitting it good, I like to keep playing. There's not a reason to take me off. Yeah, you know, I don't spend a lot of time on the range and I don't spend a lot of time practicing. I really like to play, so it allows me to be fresh, you know, I don't spend a lot of time on the the range and I don't spend a lot of time practicing I really like to play so it allows me to be fresh I think because I'm not sitting out there just grinding on the range But I think if I could change obviously anything I would go back to that Saturday round at the window and just

play so much Different, you know, if I more free or just I just feel like I forced it a little bit the window and just play so much different. You know, if I more free or just I just feel like I force it a little bit. I felt like I've done a pretty good job the last couple weeks, you know, the last month, not forcing it. And I think I got into it on Saturday thinking that I needed to go out there and play good and was trying to make some pots, forcing it a little bit from 20, 25 feet, running them by, and then missed them, and then it was just kind of compounding

errors the whole day. Because I mean, if you're in that scenario where you're not necessarily in contention for the tournament, during the middle of the season, you're just kind of playing for position. You're not thinking about, this is where I need to finish. So it's kind of a different kind of pressure that it seems to have affected your strategy.

Yeah, a little bit. I kind of was, I didn't want to do that. I kind of told myself not to do that. And got caught up in in doing that. But you know, you'll learn from it and hopefully get better. So I say most guys, your age on three or 26, right? Just turn 27. Just turn 27. The Sunday of window. Oh, wow, have a birthday. Not the best or happiest birthday. I say most guys on tour, your age,

obsess over the game, the mechanics, the training, and I'm certainly not at all calling that into question. I'm just blown away by your passion. It seems to be centered on golf course architecture. I know you're talking with Tron and Andy all the time, just about random places all over the place and just that seems to be your focus. We'll talk a bit about your project here in a second.

But where does your passion, I guess, for the construction of the design of golf courses come from. You know, my dad has been kind of in the whole golf course building them and running them and stuff like that. Just so I just grew up being around that and like any kid kind of tried to copy my dad. So with him being involved in that it was kind of easy to see. You know, I got to see him building golf courses and then when I got out here and was able to play all these stops that we go and every week it seems like there's a really good course around and I somehow was able to find my way onto those and

just got to see all these unbelievable golf courses and just kind of fell in love with it a little bit. Because that's unique. I mean most guys that on tour, you know, when they don't need to be at the course or practicing, you can't convince them to go, want to go play golf. It seems like it would take two seconds to convince you to go pick up your clubs and go play somewhere else. Yeah, you know, a lot of courses that we play, I wouldn't say they're the best golf courses, you know, architecturally speaking around, so it's sometimes fun to go, see some of those good ones that are out there.

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The misses are the biggest adjustment that I see. CallowayGolf.com is where you can find out more information on the Calloway XR fairway woods. Calloway number one fairway woods in golf. So like broadly speaking, what are elements that you look for like in a great golf course? broadly speaking, what are elements that you look for in a great golf course? Like a good set of greens is my favorite. So when you go to a course and it has a really nice set of greens that are fun to put

on and stuff like that, that's my favorite. And you don't mean necessarily the conditioning or the speed, you mean just like the shape and design of them? Yeah, yeah, you know, just the contours and how they put and how they're just kind of everything. I mean, it's hard to explain. But yeah, you know, I think we play so many courses that are kind of modern golf courses, kind of built in the dark ages that kind of sucks. What's the dark ages?

Anything after the Golden Age of Architecture. So, you know, you had all those designers, you know, your Alistair McKenzie's, your Maxwell's, your Donald Ross's, your Rainer's, McDonald's, stuff like that, who did a really good job, and then it seemed like the next wave of guys kind of tried to put their own stamp on it, especially around the greens. I felt like they almost, feels like they kind of trying to protect the scores and make it so it's harder, which I don't necessarily agree with. Sometimes you go to, you know, a classic golf course in the greens or there's so much flat-putting surface that it's just so fun to put those greens. You know, you'll have 25, 30 footers that you just feel like

you're going to make every single one of them because there's not that much to it and it's just so much more enjoyable to me. So do you think, like, obsession with par has kind of ruined the way the golf courses get designed? I think so, yeah, I mean, it just seems like they try to trick up the greens so much. That's the defense, that's the defense. That it almost kind of becomes stupid in some areas. You're like, you know, you have a 25 footer and you

feel like you can't even get it within five feet especially when the greens get fast so I mean that's maybe my biggest pet peeve when I go to a golf course when I see greens like that it's just like drives me wild. I mean I think it's kind of obviously answered in the do you think technology is really driven obviously technology drives the courses that you guys are able to go to. But do you think that that is kind of like you said, you don't, we don't always play the best course architecturally.

Do you think that the main driver of that is the fact that the ball goes so far? I think it's definitely, you know, one of the factors for sure. It's just, you see a lot of golf courses that are really really good courses, but they're just Obsely now because guys hit it so far. You know, you have really strategic holes that guys can just take it over the The strategic elements and it kind of renders them defenseless a little bit Do you feel like you play better on a course that like in your mind is better architecturally? No, I mean I play the same, honestly everywhere. Yeah, that's what everyone, it's hilarious.

You know, I feel like guys will be like, oh, you know, this course, this is a great course for you, it sets up great and I'll play like bad or something and then there will be a course that people don't think I'll play good on and I'll play good. I play good everywhere and I've played kind of poor everywhere too. You're not a horse for a course. I don't understand how people do it. It's crazy. You'll see a guy who, yeah, he won here in 2006 and then he plays good every year and I'm like, I just feel like if I'm playing good that week I'll play good. Okay, so you don't draw on this really past experience good or bad when you show up for a tournament week?

No, I mean, I just played the same everywhere I guess. Do you, do you base your schedule, maybe this, I just asked kind of, you pretty much play anytime you can, but do you base your schedule more around courses that fit your, any particular part of your game? Not really, you know, I play when I can and that's basically every week. What courses that you played you consider to be like the strongest or like the ones that really hit hit your, your golf passion bone? Um...

Wow, I mean everyone asks the question, I struggle so bad with it. You know, of course, it's like colonial. I haven't played well there, but I feel like I should. But that's a perfect example. Or like Valspar, another one where it's like, you got to drive it well, you got to chip and putt well. I haven't played good there either. So it's kind of hard.

I feel like I've played really well at Tory Pines a little bit, just because the rough is so penal and you have to drive it straight and then everybody's hitting it in the rough so you have to chip and putt good. So I mean, I just like it when there's rough, honestly. Yeah, that helps you out. Yeah. Yeah. What courses you play do you consider to be some of the weaker from a design standpoint? Oh, man. I wish I had a list because I could look at it. It goes to say, though, also, which ones you think of in your head, you know? Yeah. Which ones remind you of having weaknesses? head, you know? Yeah. Which ones remind you of having weaknesses? I mean, Tori Ponds is one that

I don't think it's anything like special, architecturally speaking, but like I said, they grow the rough up and they get the grains, you know, rolling quick and it's the Poana, but I mean there are a couple that are good or you know something like Rive and like I said Colonial. I need a list. I always need a list. Alright but I want you to we're gonna get in the butt club next but there's first I need the story to be told from your voice live on the air about what happened in the locker room in your village this year. I mean, this is a great story. Yeah, this is awesome. So I just got done working out and my trainer told me, you know, go swimming or go to the

hot tub at your hotel and I was like, well, there's a hot tub, you know, like 30 feet away. I'll just go to the hot tub at your hotel and I was like well there's a hot tub you know like 30 feet away I'll just go to the one in the locker room so went hot in the hot tub at Mirafield and it was Wednesday so Jack was getting ready to go do his ceremony or whatever for I think it was Greg Norman this year and he kind of you know saw me out of the corner of his eye and poked his head in. He was about 20 feet away so you know we'll give him the benefit of the doubt but you know he kind of looked over and said something like what uh what's going on in here and I just you know at that point I didn't know

it was going on really. I was just like I'm just hanging out you know and then proceeded to say something along the lines like, do your parents know you're here? So, you know, at that point, I'm pretty sure he thought my dad must have been playing in the pro-am or something like that. You know, I'm definitely not the oldest looking person. But, you know, I will say once he came in and got a little closer, I think he realized, you know, I was a player. And then the next day when he saw me in the locker room, he definitely gave me like a little double-taken was like, wow, the kids here again.

Because you hadn't met him before, right? Yeah, yeah, I've met him several times. I think you'd talk to him like at the Ryder Cup dinner last year, right? Yeah. Yeah. I tell that story of people, I mean, my dad tells that story. It's absolutely classic. I mean, I hear it every single week.

Somebody comes up and asks me about it. Really? It's definitely made its rounds, right? Yeah, I could. I feel bad. What the second story is, I think is maybe even a better one from Pinehurst at 2014. Yeah, that was a good one too. What happened there was I showed up early and

I was playing a practice round with Justin Thomas and we were just kind of walking around with our wedges and putter and hitting, you know, some shots around the greens and I got to like 14 or something like that and my wife had shown up and was like, hey, the merchandise tense right here, we should go in and check it out before everybody gets here, we can get all the good gear. So I was like, yeah, let's do it. And went over there and the guy stopped us at the front door and was like, hey, hey there, bud. He's like, look at you, you're a big time golf fan, huh?

Brought your clubs out and everything this week. And I was just like, yeah, you know, we kind of went along with it. I mean, I always try and go along with it. I never like to embarrass him or anything like that. But I mean, that was one that was literally like the funniest thing ever. We always tell that story. But the guy was just like, hey, they're sport. I think he said, I think it was sport.

So, yeah, that's my, that's what a couple of the guys call me around town. Oh, God, that's just, I love those stories. They're two my absolute favorites. I mean, it happens like every week. I'll be, you know, I'll run off to a bathroom and I'll come back in and kind of duck the ropes and the volunteers will be like hey sir you know you can't go in there that's for players and I'm like I'm a player so I think it's okay oh god I'm sure that gets old for you

but that's stories those stories do not get old from me all right let's talk about the butt club are you sick of talking about the butt club yet? No, definitely not. As we mentioned at the top, like you're 27, you play on the tour and one of the biggest focuses in your life seems to be on a golf course that doesn't exist yet. So when did the idea for the buck club begin to formulate? I would say probably, you know, my whole life, I've always wanted, well, we had our own courses. You know, my dad had a couple courses that were our own. So it was always having those growing up.

I definitely wanted something maybe on a bigger and better scale of that. But I would say it really came around the time I was in college and just seeing the lack of proper golf courses in Utah, not that there aren't good golf courses, there's just no great golf courses. And so I always felt like if I could build a really really great course in Utah, it would just be a home run because there's nothing like it that. in Utah, it would just be a home run because there's nothing like it that. And so I mean there was never anything in your mind that thought this is something I'll do later in my career or anything. It was like all right I want to do this. I'm going for it now. Because I mean you got to it's unusual for someone

at your age to start thinking about golf course design. Yeah yeah it is but again it was just one of those things where it's a different situation. I grew up with my dad and being involved in that kind of stuff. So, my dad's always involved in just things. He always is on the move kind of doing different stuff. So, I guess it just kind of runs in the blood. What, where the name come from? How did you pick up the name come from punch pick up the name. Honestly, it was kind of a joke. Our golf coach and our assistant golf coach at BYU are, you know, they like to hunt and stuff like that. So sometimes when we would go to these golf courses, they would leave during qualifying and

like go look for deer, you know, and the trees and stuff like that. So I was, I always told them that I was going to build a golf course and call it the Buck Club and, you know, have a deer on the property running around so they could stay out and kind of watch the golf and see some deer and kind of stuck and now we're just running with it. So do you have, you have land picked out and everything for the course? Yeah. How does that go? I mean, do you have any title to that land or what's the process like for a like a acquiring land for it? Yeah, so we have about, I mean, it's been funny. We've ran through about five different pieces of property, you know, routed a bunch of places

and stuff like that. And then we're on one right now that Johnny Miller and his sons and a couple other partners own that's an actual golf course right now that is for sale. That's the one right now that we're going to try and buy and just totally redo it. Is that make it easier to starting with a golf course already there? I feel like for sure. you know, you don't have to do the skip about like 10 steps and I feel like that's always like you always want to be like the second or third owner of a course. Because, a design of golf course to me has always felt like a Rubik's Cube and like I don't really know the order of operations of what comes first.

Like, I've seen you have sketchings and whatnot, but if you're saying you've considered a bunch of different properties, I guess what can you sketch out a golf course? Do you have to see the land first before you even start designing the very first hole or do you sketch out greens you have in mind? I do a lot of stuff. A lot of my sketches are greens and holes that I've liked or that I've played that I've considered like proper golf holes that are really good but I mean I have I have rowdings you know I've gone to all these properties and walked them and seen them and then I do a routing or and then it changes over time so I

feel like the last two pieces of property that we've looked at and done, I mean this one that we're on right now, I bet I have like 50 different rowdings for and it just kind of constantly is getting tweaked. You know, you'll go out and play the course and you'll be like, wow, you know, we definitely need to change this to go this way or we need to do this and this. So it is like a Rubik's cube, just always kind of changing. Does it, I mean, that thought of in my head, I'd be thinking, you know, you get there and you start picturing the way it should go. And then I would fear getting like halfway through and like, actually, should I route it completely the opposite the opposite direction I mean are you just like back and forth on

stuff like that or is it yeah is that stuff work itself out pretty well it's amazing to see where it's gone from the first time that I routed it to where it is now because like you said you know the first time it was like it's already a golf course right now so you'll be like, that was a good hole that they put there. You know, we just need to add, you know, we just need to change it and add a T box and, you know, push the green back. And now it's like, wow, there was way better use of this hill if we flip it around and come back this way. So it's, it's pretty crazy. So what is, do you have like a main architectural inspiration of an architect that you draw from?

Or do you try to kind of draw from some of the, some of the guys from the Golden Age that you mentioned earlier? I would say, well, my favorite architect is Seth Rainer. So you would probably, you know, if the course was built tomorrow, you'd probably see a lot of influence from him. But I will say kind of one of my goals in building this or, you know, wanting to do this was to kind of draw inspiration from all those guys and like do, they all did, they all had their kind of things that they were really good at. And if you could kind of do everything that all of them were good at and put it together, you'd have kind of like a super course.

And I feel like that's what Pine Valley did. They got all these different guys to come in and help out. And it turned out, you know, that's still the best course in the world. So, are you, when you've been saying we, are you employing people to help you with this or is this you doing this with family or is this you have a group that's working on it? You know I've got help from my dad he's always been you know he's kind of the the driving factor he's been really good with it and you know that's what he does and then it's it's been fun you know I honestly have a cool group of friends and stuff like that who like to talk about it.

And like you said, you know, Tron and Andy and all those guys pitch in their two cents every once in a while. So it's cool to just talk about it with other people because I understand that I might have a certain vision of what I like, but that might not be what everyone thinks is the best. So I've kind of tried to kind of almost like do it like a poll and see what people like and see what how people react to certain things and get advice from a lot of different people. Right, because that's one of the, again I'm not going to present to be an architecture, critic or extra one thing that I hear about,

when I'm reading about, you know, the design of somebody's work, they tend to say, well, this person, like, technic-less like to hit it left to right, so he has a ton of holes that are shaped left to right, or greens that fit left to right. And so you sound like you're at least conscious of, I'm not trying to design a course that's perfect for me.

Yeah, I would definitely, though, that would be like the last that you'd never want to I think every hole would be like 340 tight. So what do you want the makeup of the club to be is going to be totally a private club? Is it semi-private public? You know we've had that's that's another thing that we've kind of distrained different ideas you know I've talked to you I think about how they do it over in year You know, we've had, that's another thing that we've kind of dis- around different ideas. You know, I've talked to you, I think about how they do it over and you're up a little bit, how they have the, it's kind of a mixture.

You know, you got your private side that gets to go out and get the good t-times and stuff like that, but also the public is, you know, open to play it. And then, but I don't really know at this point. I would definitely like to have some sort of a beat private, but I just want to make sure it's just a straight up golf club. No pools, no tennis courts, none of that stuff. It's just all about golf. You show up, play golf, have a little food. Modest clubhouse then? Yeah, for sure. Don't want to do anything have a little food. Modest clubhouse then? Yeah for sure. Don't want to do anything to take away from the golf but definitely at the same time want it to be comfortable. You got to go to the golf club man. Yeah it's like the spot. It's exactly what you're describing. It's a small little clubhouse

and just it's all about the golf course. That's what I think that's another area where there's nothing like that in Utah. You know there's's really nice, you know, country clubs or private clubs, you know, your courses in Park City, your Glenwilds and your promenetories. They're really nice, but they're built more for, you know, to sell houses and, you know, family memberships and stuff like that, which is fine for what they're trying to do, but I think Utah deserves a golf club. Yeah, I've talked about this in the past, too, and you've not talked about how, like Richard said,

the model in the UK typically is, the membership, it's a limited number of members, members fees or dues are just painfully low. I mean, it drives me nuts to hear that. Yeah, like the funding for the course mostly comes from the tourists that would come and play it and pay decent premium to play it. The key to that is you need a course that is good enough

to stand out that when people travel to play, that they would come play it. For some reason, this model just doesn't really exist in the US. I know there's semi-private course, I know Pasitempos is a semi-private course that, and I don't know what their membership is like or how many T times are open to visitors and whatnot. But if we could find a way to make that model work in the US across, I mean, I

know some people join golf clubs for the exclusivity and for the privacy and that they don't, you know, they don't want a bunch of visitors playing the course. They're wealthy enough that they can afford that. But I feel like the model kind of got broken somewhere along the way and that there's a ton of country clubs that are, you pay a really pretty decent premium, like more, like, and some country clubs in central Ohio, guys pay more, pay 500, 600 a month for a membership of these courses and talking about, like, World Dornet, like, those members pay 600 a month for members of these courses and talking about World Dorenec, like those members pay something a thousand pounds a year or something like that. That's messed up, that model is totally messed up and that you gotta pay this decent premium just

to get on a decent country club and then you kind of lose some of the lustre of an enjoyment out of going and playing somewhere else because you're kind of like, well I'm paying for this, I don't really want to go play that. So I don't know, maybe I just got spoiled with the UK, but I just, I'm frustrated with the idea of the thought of trying to join a club in the US, seeing how much it would cost and to kind of the cost benefit of it. But so that's what I wanted to, I wanted to pick your brain on what your plans of that were. But I mean, I've heard you, and I think I saw you, you floated some kind of proposal package of some kind or something, and the courses that you had mentioned, you just said, what if you had the opportunity to be a founding member of like a winged foot or something like that.

So in your mind, this is kind of the level in my mind that 50 to 100 years down the road, you know, the Buck Club will be in those discussions. So, yeah, I mean, think if you had the opportunity to join like a Pine Valley or like a Cypress Point when it opened, and you're like, wow, like obviously you would do that. So I feel like this is kind of an opportunity for something like that, especially for guys around Utah and I think it'd be really cool. So what will make the buck club that into that echelon, right? I mean like some like Cypress Point has the views but it's also just from it's got basically three different six-hole sets and it's incredible. I've never been

there but an incredible architectural design, Pine Valley, I know a decent amount, but they say every hole out there is just perfect. And a lot of courses that are people, top of people's bucket lists are based on scenery or the prestige of holding a lot of tournaments. So what's going to bring people to the Buck Club? Is this piece of land? Is this where this course is? Is it that impressive? That you know, it's, you think it's going to be a true destination? Or how do you really set yourself apart? I feel like a lot of different ways. Like I said earlier, what they did so great at Pine Valley

was they drew inspiration and ideas from all the greats back in the day, or the guys that were around. And so they went there and picked ideas from Seth Rainer and Donald Ross and Cole and Mackenzie, you know, all these guys kind of gave their two cents and you know, Crom said, well I want that idea. I'm gonna do that. I'm not gonna do that. And for that course with where it's at, with no views of the ocean, you know, Bill, whenever it was Bill, to be the number one course in the world, says a lot.

You know, there's not ocean views. I mean, you're in the middle of pine trees for 18 holes, but it's a perfect golf course as far as every hole is amazing, you know, from a strategical standpoint. And I feel like that's what I can do. I don't think you need amazing scenery for it to be a great golf course. You have a course like Chicago Golf Club same thing. It's just architecturally speaking, it's perfect. If you could sit there, I don't know how golf courses got on the track they were on. If you had ever played a course like that, it's like perfect. If you could sit there, I don't know how golf courses got on the track they were on. If you had ever played a course like that, it's like perfect. You know what I mean? So you don't need amazing scenery or anything like that. You just need to put together 18 great golf holes and you know some architects say well you can't make 18 great

holes or 18 perfect holes but I think you can. And what you need to do is do what those guys did and they drew on, you know, pulled inspiration from a set of specific off holes over in the UK and just tweaked them where they needed to be tweaked and made those holes fit on any given property. And then besides that, I mean, I feel like, you know, you'll have great fishing and great skiing, so it's kind of gonna be an all year thing. You know, if you go out there, you can play golf, it's gonna be all about golf on the golf course,

but if you wanted to go there in the winter when the course is closed, you could go skiing, and yeah. It's deep. Yeah. So what's like an example of, and feel free to be as specific as possible, of like something a specific either a template that you want to use, template whole you want to use or like, so like this whole at this course is something like I picture that at the butt club.

Um, well, so Rainer and McDonald, you know, they used all their template holes over and over. You know, they had their Part 3 templates, the redans and the bearits, and then they had their, you know, their punchball and their road hole and stuff like that. So like I said, I'm a big Seth Rainer fan, so I feel like you would see a lot of those type of template holes. But then I've also drawn inspiration from... Let me stop you there just because I'm just not learning about it, but people listening

may not know. When you say template holes, what does that mean? Yeah, so like I said earlier, Steven McDonald, kind of the grandfather, I guess, of golf course architecture in America, he went over to You know the United Kingdom, Scotland, whatever and He went out and studied all the great golf courses and you know came to the conclusion that there were x amount of holes that were like perfect golf holes or really good golf holes and then he came back here and kind of implemented those and tweaked those and made his set of template holes. So I feel like if you can just do that in Utah and do it the right way, you know it's not going to be a copycat course,

it's not like you're going to take the... A rendition. Yeah, you're not going to take the 14th hole at Pine Valley and do exactly the same thing and just plug it in somewhere. But you can take certain characteristics of it, you know, if you really like the, you know, first hole at Augusta, and if you really like the first green, for example, or something like that, You can take bits and pieces like that and say, like, I think that would fit really good here and modify it a little bit. And if you do stuff like that, I mean, it's a great hole for a reason. I'm not saying number one to Augusta, but I'm saying those holes, you know, like the third hole at National Golf Links, the outsole, it's a great hole for a reason, and if you

took the reasons why it's so good and implemented it somewhere else, tweaked it a little bit, so it fits there. How is it not going to be a great hole? You know what I mean? No, I do you ever, when you're out playing like professionally, see a course and think, like, jot something down like, oh oh this is a good one right here this is one I need for sure all the time yeah I mean it's cool going to places like the green briar you know that's a seabing McDonald's Seth Reiner course and seeing all the template holes you know and just seeing how they're used or yeah I'm big on like green to t-box transitions so like the

walk from a grain to a tee I love when the t-box is like right off the back of the grain so I definitely take like pictures of stuff like that of ones that I really like but green complexes bunkering everything if I really like it you know I always have like a sketchbook with me I'll jot it down take pictures of it show my friends That's what I think without following you guys the template holes at Greenbrier I was just out there last week to weekends go. It would have been I played there I would have been lost on me. I don't think I really understood it all until following you guys so

I just I thought it'd be really interesting to get your thoughts to get people start thinking about these things that You know people that play golf a lot don't necessarily think about architecture. They think about, does this, do I play well with this course? Yeah. I'd be limited to that. And I think you also have to be playing at a certain level to really fully appreciate a lot of architectural elements. But there's also a overall, like what I was so impressed with Pinehurst was it fits

all handicap levels. For a low handicap player, it's so challenging to hit the ball in the center of those greens. But high handicap player, you can kind of hit it where you want to, find it, and then still equally challenging on the greens, but you're not getting eaten alive. And that's where I felt like those guys, the Golden Age architects, were so good at they made it challenging enough for good golfers. You know put the bunkering in the right place, you know put the green complexes in the right place and made them a certain way but at the same time they let like an average guy or high handicap beat it around. They weren't going to lose a lot of golf balls. They weren't going to have a lot of out of bounds

and stuff like that. And that's a major thing that I want to implement in my course. I don't want a lot of water hazards. I don't want a lot of out of bounds. I want you to go play. I don't want a lot of places where you can lose golf balls because that just makes it not fun and slow and then golf sucks.

Yep. I think people always ask what my favorite golf course is and I'm prepared to say my answer now is the old course but I wouldn't have said that after the first two times I played it. It took to the third time to really see it but kind of realizing like I didn't drive the ball great last time I played there but I played one ball the entire round. Like you play it. If you miss it in somewhat the right spot,

and you can go as far left as you want on that golf course thing. But it's just so much fun to, you know, not fear going way left. Because when you go way left, you just know, all right, my angle into the green is gonna suck. I'm gonna pay the price, because there's gonna be a mound

that I gotta deal with it. I wouldn't have to deal with in the middle of the fairway. But that's so much more fun punishment-wise for like a lower handicap player than it would be if that ball, you know, if that ball's in the heather and you can't find it. Yeah, I mean, that's, that's sacks and like speaking of that, I mean, there's so many courses like that in Utah. They're really nice courses, but it's like if you miss a ball, you're in Fescue that's

unplayable and people are sitting in there searching for five minutes every hole looking for balls and then there's water hazards in front of every green houses that frame the core Exactly, and I just like get that out of here. Yeah So what about I love like little Small nuances that aren't related to the architecture of a course Like I think I've thrown a couple at you of like at the golf club They have this and I'm not sure if this is a club rule that they follow but there's one whole where there's optional t-box and like the guy that won the previous whole

just to choose the t-box. If you shape it left the right and whatever you can kind of get to advantage that way but I thought that was a cool little like Nicknack and do you have anything like that plan? Any little you know like a running list of things like oh we should try this we should do this just might not have anything to do with the golf course. Yeah, I have so many things like that. It's like, it's might be proprietary information. Too long to even get into, I forget half of them. But yeah, optional T-boxes, like hidden holes where you play to other holes. Like, that's one thing. I don't know if any, I don't, I've never talked to really any other architects about it,

but like, that's a big thing for me. I want you to be able to play this course like so many different ways. I don't want it to just be 18 holes. I want you to stand up on four and be like, oh look, there's like seven green over there. That's like a sick part three that we could play. You know, if you're just out with your buddies

and you know, is it not a busy day, you can kind of just go out and play a bunch of holes that aren't really holes. I like that. Yeah, I think that's amazing how much those little things add up to your overall experience. Like, again, I just recently played the golf clubs, so I keep referring to that.

But like, their trash bins are tree trunks that they just like hollowed out. And they, it's like, I don't know, that's the coolest little touch and all those little subtleties can really add to experience. And it kind of, it sets the overall tone, I think of like, yeah, if you've thought of this, this is kind of the kind of level of service we're given you basically here. Like, this is the, this is kind of what we thought that we put into what we do. Yeah, my friends always talk, you know, they always bring up stuff like that. A couple cool ones, you know, we've heard are like hidden places where they're like drinks

on the course or stuff like that, like buried in the ground, and trees. I think it Kingsley Club or something like that. On the 18th hole, there's some sort of a rock wall by the T-Box. And if you're a member, you like know where the whiskey's at or something like that. No, they're gonna send people listening to this searching for that. I love it. Anything we miss regarding the the butt club? Not really, you know.

You sure you're not sick of talking about it. No, man, it's one of my passions and it's something that hopefully happens sooner than later but it's cool to see people get behind it and everybody likes the hats and everyone likes to talk about it whenever I'm around, so it's been fun. The idea of it is just something fascinates people. It's easy to see how punk you are about it. Yeah, you're printing hats and belts and stuff, of course.

You have a broken ground on me. It fascinates me. It's fantastic. So, thanks for the architecture lesson and for walking us through that. I think that was pretty much exactly what we were looking for. So enjoyed it, but I'll have to have you back sooner rather than later. Yeah, for sure. Anytime. For now, let's get some grub.

Sounds good. Give it a big club. you the right club. Be the right club today. Yes! Ready? That's better than most. How about him? That is better than most.

Better than most. Better than most. Expect anything different? I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Expect anything different.