No Priors: Artificial Intelligence | Technology | Startups - Reinventing K-12 Education Using AI with Alpha School Principal Joe Liemandt

Episode Date: September 25, 2025

What if kids could master their academics in just two hours a day and spend the rest of their time developing real-world skills they’re passionate about? Joe Liemandt, founder of the software company Trilogy, is doing just that. Sarah Guo and Elad Gil are joined by Joe Liemandt, principal of Alpha School, to discuss his AI-driven vision of reinventing K-12 education. Joe talks about the strategies that Alpha School employs: reducing the traditional six-hour school day to two, replacing teachers with “Guides,” using financial incentives as motivation, and dedicating the remainder of the school day to project-based workshops that reflect the students’ passions. Together, they also examine Joe’s plan to scale Alpha School, the youth mental health crisis, and why edtech so far has failed. Sign up for new podcasts every week. Email feedback to [e-mail] Follow us on Twitter: @NoPriorsPod | @Saranormous | @EladGil | @AlphaSchoolATX Chapters: 00:00 – Joe Liemandt Introduction 00:27 – From Trilogy to Alpha School 02:45 – How Joe Changed His Mind About Alpha School 04:16 – Reenvisioning the School Day 09:06 – An Example Day at Alpha School 20:13 – Educating Based on Motivations 22:56 – Incentives-Based Learning 24:40 – Standards for Guides 26:39 – Extrinsic vs. Intrinsic Motivators 35:12 – Tackling Learning Differences  39:13 – Alpha School Pricing Structure 43:08 – Education Tech at Alpha School 44:54 – Rebuilding Education in the AI Age 48:43 – Reforming Education Policy 56:25 – Ed Tech as a Product 58:58 – Fixing Gaps in Education 59:45 – Why Education is Joe’s Mission 01:01:49 – Conclusion

Hi listeners. Welcome back to No Pryors. Today we're here with Joe Lamont, the founder of the legendary technology company Trilogy and now the principal of Alpha School. He wants to educate a billion kids differently and also recruit a generation of builders to work in education. Joe, thanks so much for doing this with us. Yeah, good to see her. Great. Thank you. I appreciate this. So you have an amazing story as a technology entrepreneur. Trilogy is a legend of a company. Can you just talk a little bit about how you went from that to being principal of a school? Absolutely. Rolling back on background, in high school, I actually wrote a paper on AI. And it literally had a paragraph on neural nets that said, this is decades away. And back then, it was all expert systems ontologies and all that.

And I went to Stanford and actually was in a class with Ed. Feigenbaum, the father of extra systems, ended up dropping out to build a AI company. You couldn't call it back then because AI was bad back then. And it was the first product in the 90s to sell a billion dollars of AI. So we built a software company and did that for 25 years. But then- That helped with sales configuration. Yeah, sales configuration and all of that. And so think just classic SaaS enterprise software, both organic build and acquisitions. But then 10 years ago and sort of how we got to the school is McKinsey Price, who's a Stanford grad, who I'd hired into Trilogy back in the 90s, she started a school, started Alpha, very different

school. And we can talk about how I got. But for two years, I was just saying, I'm not going to go to your weird school. And eventually, though my kids went. And then three years ago, when Gen. I came out, I was like, wow, neural nets are finally here. And now we can scale this. The problem with all education is it's not scalable. There's lots of point good education systems. And what my view was, wow, this is finally a technology that can get this to a billion kids and take the magic of alpha, which was great for Austin kids and my kids, and get it out to everybody. And so I'm a product guy and I said, I guess I have to be principal to go figure this out. And what happens when fifth graders get in a fight and would parents yell at you about and how do you design a product

from the ground up if you just did you know let's start with parents are going to drop their kids off at a school at a building and there's going to be other kids in the building and there's going to be adults in the building what would you do to sort of unleash human potential if you had 12 years to you know re-envision it so what was your original thinking about your kids going to McKenzie school like what was the resistance and what was the reason they eventually Well, lots. I mean, is every parent basically wants their kid educated the way they were, right? That's what you've experienced. We've all experienced the same model for a couple hundred years. I went to Catholic school. I didn't even like it, but my kids were going to it, right? And so they're in the local school. And McKinsey's giving this other, you know, weirdness. And I'm just like, no. What was weird about it? Or what was it? Well, she was, they were using apps in the morning, right? And it was, you know, it was a mix. It wasn't what we are today. And it. And it was, you know, it was a mix. It wasn't what we are today. But it was the formation of it. And you're like, a kid's going to learn really with an app and no teacher.

Seriously, like everybody knows good school equals good teacher. Good teacher equals good school. And you're like, no, this app dream box back then was the app. And I'm like, that's better in math. And so you just have that hang up. And that's true today, right? That, you know, when we look to open a new location, basically, everybody wants to go to an alpha once there's 100 kids in the school. No one wants to go when you're the first 20.

Like are you, it takes somebody like a McKinsey who's like, I want to be a founding family because the, you know, the bundle that is education, part of what she loved was I get to go find the other kids that I want to surround my kids with. Right? And so it took her two years, but eventually she got, you know, and our daughters are all now best friends and have been for a decade. But you're taking an even more radical approach, I think, right? You're basically saying kids really just need two hours.

a day with structured classwork or, you know, some interaction with applications, et cetera, and then the rest of the day can go to other things. Could you extrapolate on that a little bit more? Sure. Because I think it's a very interesting. Yeah. So, well, if I had to step back when we just talking about how we re-envisioned it. Yeah. Right. There's, you know, the pillars of reinvention. And if you say, if you could reinvent school and had to make it 10 times better, what would it be? So the first one and the most important, and this was McKinsey's co-founder, who actually was the one who told me this. Ten years ago, I said,

what do I not know about school that I should know? He's like, two things. First, kids must love school. And I'm like, you know, spinach sometimes. He's like, nope, you're going to learn kids must love school. And I said, what second? He's like, when kids love school, your expectations of your kids are too love.

And I'm like, whoa, whoa, whoa. I really, I expect that if I did, there's no chance. He's like, call me back in a hundred days. And both of those turned out to be true. So when we, three years ago, when I was like, okay, now with Gen A.I. What we do, our first view is kids must love school more than vacation. So we literally survey our kids. You know, if we say kids, do you love school, 96% say yes. we get between, you know, 40 and 60 percent of kids, depending on the vacation they have, or how their workshops or afternoon workshops went, saying every eight weeks, okay, I love school more than vacation. And that is a magic that every parent should expect that if we're going to

put kids in a place for 12 years, we should just have that expectation. Yeah. Which is not standard. You're like, okay, how do I make them love school? And so for me, you know, once I took that commitment that McKinsey had and I was principal, I went to the kids. And this is where your two hours is coming in. Yeah. I went to the kids and I was like, okay, the new fifth graders had come in and it's my first week. Yeah. And I'm like, all right, kids, do you love school?

And they're all like, no. And I'm like, okay, what would make you love school? Mm-hmm. And they're like, less school. Yeah. And I'm like, how much less? And they're like, none. Yeah.

And I'm like, that seems a little light, you know? We were talking about this earlier where school is kind of a bundle, right? It's academics, it's physical activity, it's socialization. and in some sense it's child care for the parent. So there's a variety of things that school is. Exactly. And so what specifically are they referring to in that? And so on this one, they're just like the academic part.

If you want me to love school and you're just going to put me in class for six hours a day, I'm not going to love school. And so we negotiated basically. I was like two hours. Right? If would you, because, you know, there's ed tech that's been deployed forever. But, you know, ed tech's deployed and test scores keep going down. So it's not working. And the issue is just engagement that, you know, you could, if you use Dreambox, you know,

even 10 years ago, it would work. But, you know, there's a lot of studies that, like, between 5 and 10% of people are the people who actually engage with con, right? And there's 5 to 10% of people who are self-motivated, but the other 90, right, don't. And so what we developed, I went back to my team. I'm like, okay. And I was like, to the kids, two hours a day in the apps, like real engagement, but then you get four hours of awesomeness, right?

Is that a fair trade? And they're like, yes. And so I went to my team. I'm like, okay, we got two hours. We got to jam everything in these kids' heads in two hours and it has to be there forever, right? Change the whole scheme of their brain. The good news was there have been learning science papers written for 40 years back, you know, even before I went to high school that talked about how kids could learn two, five or ten times faster. They just don't work in a teacher in front of a classroom model.

And so we just literally just would pull papers off, you know. Dean Schwartz at Stanford has a book on it. And we're like, okay, let's do chapter K in this book, you know, and put it in. And so we built a learning engine that teaches kids 10 times faster. It's all based on the principles of learning science. And so then now we can commit to kids. You just need to do two hours a day and you're going to crush your academics. So top 1% performance in only two hours a day.

Now they engage in the app and then once they finish, it goes green and they get the four hour afternoon to go do life skills and all the, you know, the set of things that both they love as well. well as when you talk about a bundle, what parents really care about. Right? But when you start saying, what do I want my kid to learn, especially with AI coming and you're, it's very confusing. Like, what are we supposed to teach kids for the first 12 years when AI is going to know everything? But you start thinking about leadership and teamwork and grit and hard work and entrepreneurship and financial literacy, storytelling and public speaking, relationship building, socialization. That bundle. Parents are like, oh, okay, I like that. And what's really? really great about those is you can build awesome workshops that kids love that drive them through

that. Can you make that, like, easy to picture for parents or builders listening here? Like, I am a new fifth grader at an alpha school. Like, what does my day look like? Your day looks like this. You come in, you do limitless launch. Think Tony Robbins for kids, right? And it's all about growth mindset. You're going to be able to do this, right? Our view, kids are limitless. They're awesome and we need to create an environment that helps unleash them. So you jump into that, then you literally sit down at your app. And so you're going to have a AI tutor that's going to be there for two hours that's going to give you personalized lessons, right, based on your, right, your level. Age grade and knowledge grade are two totally different things.

Yeah. The number of people in the average sixth grade class in this country who actually needs sixth grade content is very small. And so this is why all the test scores keep going down is a sixth grade teacher's job is to deliver sixth grade content. Her audience, right, her students actually aren't ready for it. Just to give you, like, we just had hundreds of kids join the last, you know, a couple weeks as we started across the country. And, you know, my message to the parents, you know, my first academic talk to them was, I hate to tell you this, and it sounds extreme, but your $50,000 private school that you were at

for however many years has been lying to you. Your student academically on standardized tests that we use are somewhere between one grade level ahead, if they had a straight-a-transcript transferring into us, one-grade level ahead to three grade levels behind. And if there are B, and if there are B, three grade levels behind to seven years behind. I have freshmen who are transferring in, you know, who have can't write a third grade grammatically correct sentence. right and it's just and these are coming from high in private schools right and so that's the first part the second part though and this is where the 10 times faster learning matters I'm like don't worry we can catch you up right and this is why we get such great academic performance is learning science engine you know the content when you talk about 10 times faster the average grade

level subject combo so math fourth grade master takes between 20 and 30 hours to master. That's it. So you think there's 180 school days, hour a day, plus you have homework. So you're thinking the average when I'm behind, it's hundreds of hours. We're like near 20 or 30 hours. And so these kids who come in instead of our two hours a day, they can do a third hour and they can do it at school or at homework if they want. And so you're literally like, well, you're really only 60 hours behind, which is 60 days. We'll catch you up to grade level quickly. These are like 60 pretty hard hours, right? Because I don't know what your memory was. But in elementary school, I spent a lot of time, like, drooling, doodling on my desk because there wasn't anything going on.

And so this is like hard focused work. How do you get a second or fifth grader to do that? Yeah. So when you talk about hard focused work, part of what you're trying to do with the, you know, your engine is there's a zone of proximal development. And what you actually want to keep kids at is between 80 and 85% right. So you can't have 99% because, you know, I mean, they already know it. And they're just, you're giving them content they know. But if you drop down when you say hard work and it drops down to 66% or below, you get

disengagement. Right? And every video game designer knows that. Yeah. I'm in the like fun struggles. And so you have to be in the 80 to 85%. And what an AI tutor can do that an alf, that a teacher in front of a classroom can't, is generate an unending stream of content for each kid at 80 to 85%.

So I can keep you engaged because I'm not going to. to make it too hard, right? If you're struggling on this concept, right, I need this concept, right? If the leap is too big, right, I can just create scaffolding, right? And so then you just do the scaffolding lesson. You're like, oh, I get this. And so we're able to figure out is the kid and create content for them that keeps them in that zone of proximal development. So they actually, and it's not to say it's never hard, right? But there is relative to what when you're put in over your head. There's a few of throw kids in way over their head. And the learning science does not support that, right? The learning science does not say there's a concept of desirable difficulties versus

productive struggle. It's a whole debate on it. But if you gave me an MCAT, I would fail it. And you can tell me to struggle through it all day long, right? And have grit. You need to roll me back to freshman bio, right? And then build me up. And AI tutors can do that for every subject. Like the third grade lesson when these high school kids can't write, sure. They're going to go through third, fourth, six hours, right? They're going to just learn it, right, and be able to progress through it. And in a matter of weeks, all of a sudden, they're going to be writing at what would AP Lang,

you know, get a five on AP Lang and an FRQ, right? And so you can, you can roll these kids back. You do not want to push them too hard. And you just want to deliver them perfect content, which accelerates their learning. And that's the, that's the magic of all of this, is the way we learned or thought to learn of just putting them in over their head is actually not the best way to do it. This has happened. What's, what's going on the rest of the day? So then in the afternoons, it's all project-based workshops. So you're going to go in and, you know, depending on, you know, the grade level and the workshop, it's going to have something that you're going to love as well as something that teaches a life skill. And before I get into the workshop, one of the things, this is where our love of school really comes in,

but you have to believe one statement that lots of people do not believe. You know, the three things that if I could wave a magic wand and every parent believed we could fix education. One, your kid must love school as much as vacation, which a lot of parents don't think. Number two, they can crush their academics in two hours a day. And then this one is that the key to your child's happiness is high standards. kids want to do awesome things right and they want to do hard things right and they want to accomplish things and if you take that away right by setting low standards then there is no way that they get the love of school and that's actually a bunch of human history right if you look at just

apprenticeship of people in different crafts over the centuries it was very common for children to effectively start working in the context of their parents environment and apprenticing something and accomplish something, you know, make something, and if you take even a modern day one, most parents actually, when you apply to academics, they don't agree. They don't think my kid's going to get happier if I hold higher standards.

But it's actually true, at least at our schools. But they all believe it was sports. Everybody wants their kid on the championship team with the coach who's going to be like, guys, this is going to be the hardest thing we ever did. But we were in last place last year. We're going to be in first next year, but we're going to get there and grind it and work.

And it's going to be awesome. And we're going to have teamwork and leader. Right. And every parent's like, oh, I want my kid to go through that, which is why they all put them in after school sports is to get those life skills. Yeah. Right. But kids want to do it just even outside of sports. I mean, they want to do it in sports, but they want to do it on everything. So like we, you know, our workshops, right? We have kindergartners who climb 40 foot rock walls. Yeah. Right. And, you know, the parents when they first see it, because parents want to protect their kid, right? Their job is to keep safety. Parents don't want their kid to struggle, fail. And as I add as principal, sometimes cry on their road to success, supported by a caring adult. Every child development expert in the world will say, you want to run that cycle on kids as much as you can. That's the key to self-confidence, resilience, growth. And for us, it's also the key to love school.

And so our workshops do that. But as a parent, you're naturally like, this seems too hard. I don't want to see my kids struggle and fail, right? And that's what our school set up is we have guides. because we don't have adults teaching seventh grade science. So we hire the best motivational emotional support experts, right? And it changes by age, you know, a kindergarten is going to be Mallory and charity, wrap your kid in love, right?

Versus, you know, at high school I have ex-NFL athletes, ex-NBA coaches, right, who can take those set of video game playing, you know, middle school boys and be like, guys, we're going to go do something. Does this radically change how you compensate people? I think in the context of schooling, people always say teachers are undercompensated and the salaries are, like, is this a different salary ban? So we pay a minimum of $100,000 at our schools for the guides. And, you know, that allows us, one, we get the best teachers because, you know, back in if there's a whole different thing of like, what's the future of teachers, teachers became teachers to transform kids lives. And your best teacher, she was great because she found you and convinced you you could do awesome stuff, right?

and she wasn't the reason it's they didn't become teachers to grade that seventh grade science quiz and they weren't you didn't think they were great because they marked your paper up really well right it's because it's because of the motivational emotional support so we go hire them and say this is what you get to do all day you know during the two hour blocks we do 25 minute pomodora's of you know mass science language reading and they take a kid out during the 25 minutes and they're like okay you're not doing math today you know come talk to me and hey how's your weekend and you're winning the softball tournament and what's going on and You're having trouble on engagement, right? And they get to know the kids at a level that no teacher can. You know, I was just up at the San Francisco campus last night. And one of the parents, it's been open 23 days. And the parents, like, in 23 days, this guy knows more than the teachers did in years, you know, in the prior world.

And I'm like, because that's what they do all day. They don't stand in front lecturing, right? They spend the time getting to know the kids. So, yes, so comp is different. And if we want to go even edgier, you know, if you talk to our middle and high schoolers, and we'll go really edgy on the high school side, our high schoolers interview the guides before they get hired. And which everybody thinks is terrible. And that whole rate might teacher, they're going to have low standards. The difference is when you have kids who

want to go be great and in this environment, they want adults who are going to help them. And so they hold really high standards for this, you know, the guides that we hire. The sports analogy is really interesting because I'm like, I would totally believe that, you know, there's a bunch of motivated high schoolers who are going to go pick the coach that will make the most success. whole, but the instinct is that they won't if it's academics. Correct. Yeah. And there really is this whole, we have two different ethos in America about sports versus academics. And Steph, who runs K through 8 for us, right, she came out of the sports world. And she's like, my job is to bring the athletic ethos to academics. And when you talk about the guides, we hire and things like

that, that model that parents actually believe in that does develop life skills, right, is, and kids love it. And so, yes, if we could change that, that would be huge. How universal do you think this is? Because like, let's just say, like, I have a couple kids. They have different temperaments, right? Some of them are sports oriented. They have more natural resilience. Some are less so.

You know, some people are more motivated about learning less so. Like, how do you handle that as alpha school for a particular type of kid? Our job is to get this to a billion kids. So we're working to make it available to everybody, both price point as well as personality type. And a lot of it is when we talk about love of school, it helps you design your product. which is, you know, I get all the guides. We've opened, besides Alpha, we opened up different schools, branded schools, for different afternoons.

So I have a sports academy where you play sports all afternoon. I have a gifted, talented school where in the afternoon you do academic enrichment, robotics, Math Olympia, write a book. And a lot of it is when we ask the guides, we're like, okay, we only had 40% of the kids love school instead of vacation. How do we juice that to 75? You know, the GT guides are like more academics. They want a third power hour, you know, and what are we going to do?

And that's what fires them up. My oldest daughter is like that. Like she read calculus books in high school and, you know, she's a double major at Stanford now. And she literally is like, these STEM boys can't write. And so she wrote an English writing class that's equation-based writing to help teach them, right? And so if she can do academics all day, she loves it. My younger daughter, who's still in high school, wakes up every day. And while academically does great and, you know, just took the SAT, hopefully has as good scores as her sister, is like, is this the last academics I have to do?

Right? Am I done? Is CalP.C., like the last bath I have to do? Or I've done, she has millions of followers on TikTok, you know, and, you know, she built an online AI dating app for high school boys and, you know, in waking. up and is like, I just want to be social all day and build relationships. And so, you know, it's that continuum or, and it's finding what is the passion for your kid and then saying, okay, we're going to put you in an environment where you get more of that. Right. And that then drives your academic performance in the morning, which is, you know, if you're going to give the kid

the time back, right, our product name is time back. Sure. Give the kid the time back. That's the single biggest motivator. Well, we can talk motivation about later. But the biggest motivator for kids is don't waste my life. Don't waste my 12 years. Because that's what you're doing. And we all know you sit in class 95% of the time is wasted, you know, all that. And so we're like, great, two hours. And then we're going to make sure your afternoon's awesome. Do you want to talk about that a bit more, actually, like your focus on incentives? And I think you've been very forward thinking in terms of like, just give them any incentive as long as it motivates them to do the things you want them to do. Could you extrapolate on that a little bit? Sure. You know, this

is, once again, we do obviously controversial things, but motivation is one of the biggest ones where we wake up every day and say, how do we motivate these students and do it in a way where they're going to love school and have great results and high standards. And so, and our guides literally create all these different motivational programs. There's an Astral Codex article that one of our GT parents wrote. And, you know, his summary was alpha bucks, right? where we give them, you know, bucks is the number one motivator, which that's not actually true, which is it will talk about when money matters, but time back by far is the biggest motivator of kids, where if you took our Westlake high school, you know, in Austin, where they do six

hours a day in class, four hours a day homework if you're on AP IVVT track, right? You can't pay those kids enough money to be happy, right? They are just grinding it. And if they love academics, great, but for everybody else, it's a grind and they hate it. Yeah. But if you tell those same kids, look, it's two to three hours a day. You can still get 1550 plus on your SAT and fives on your APs, but then you get afternoons, four years of afternoon in high school to do awesome stuff you love. And that's true across all of them. Now, when do we use other motivations? You know, every guide wakes up every day and says, I have to make this kid love school and set high standards, right? High support, high standards. What's going to motivate the student to do it? And sometimes it's a sticker, right? Right? Every kid has different motivations. Some are competition. So we have leaderboards and we have people who are like, I'm going to win just because I want to do. What is the incentive system for the guide? Is there differential compensation based on how well their students do? Is it some other incentive system? So the guides have to deliver all three commitments. So the guides have to deliver all three commitments, love school, 2X learning and life skills to all your kids, you won't be at alpha law. So it's not a tenure system. No tenure system. It is you are here, right, to deliver that. Second, you know, we survey the

students and say, every adult had one or two teachers who transformed their life. Is your guide that for you? And that's the standard that they have to live up to. At kindergarten, it's like, do you love your daughter? But as you get older. And then there's a second one if you're going to be our middle high school guide, which is at middle and high school, one of the things we tell parents is, you know, The key is high standards, high support. High standards is hard within adolescence, right? And so our question we ask parents is, do you trust your alpha guide to hold the high standards so you as the parent can provide the unconditional love and support, which totally transforms your relationship with your teen if you trust them? Like my oldest daughter, you know, she's like, no, dad, I'm not going to let you read my Stanford application.

And I'm like, oh, you know. And I'm like, she's like, no, because she doesn't want feet, right? Yeah, yeah. Teens don't want that. But for me, Chloe, who's her guide, right, Harvard grad, who wants to, you know, Chloe's like, don't worry, I got it, right? And it's going to be fine. And that's what you want.

The same way you outsource to a coach on sports, right? Every parent's like, yeah, he's going to make this super hard for my kid. We're going to win state. They're going to be great at it. Yeah. Right. And we don't expect teachers. That's how we call teacher being 10x better is that kind of.

relationship. And so, yes, you can make more and there's, you know, different bands and are your lead guide and all of that. So one of the things that was like most controversial to me when we were first speaking is, I feel like, you know, schooling is mixed up with a lot of parenting philosophy. And that makes it complicated. And I think there's a popular view of like if you give kids a bunch of extrinsic motivators, right? It could be stickers. It could be time back. You're hurting their building of intrinsic motivation. They should just want to do it. How do you react to that? No. The answer is just very clearly. That's just not true. Okay, but explain yourself. It's a belief and I know everybody believes it. Yeah. And I was trying to, I pause because

should I go through like the research that goes into this? Yeah, I'm like, I can't pay my kid when they're 30 to be a self-actualized person. But no, but here's, you're paying them. So let's talk about paying. So paying is the most controversial side. And so let's just, we hit it. We start in kindergarten. You can earn an alpha buck. And we have an economy based on this where kids learn how to earn, right? Okay, I did work. I earned it. I learned how to save. I learned how to spend. I have an emporium and I have to decide where am I going to, you know, spend my money. I learn how to donate, right? And so we learn how to save and invest and donate as that ecosystem. And it's important that the kids are earning it being given it. And as you go up when you talk about our middle

school, right? Parents are like, we have a system where if you're not top 1% coming into our middle school, we will pay you $1,000 when you hit top 1% in your subject. It's a lot of money for a middle school. And that $1,000 now there's two, and parents are like, okay, I hate that. I'm like, wait, but then that money then goes and feeds their Robin Hood for Kids account, right? Which then, now they have real money to invest, right? Which really matters. How does that go for them? Well, at some of the seven, you know, they're going to yolo it and lose it. And, you know, and I have parents who are like, how'd you let them lose all that money? And you're like, this is the best time for them to learn not to do that and actually learn good investing behavior

and not gambling. And if it's not real money, right, and if it's just like a, oh, a shadow account, right, or a fake account, it actually teaches dysfunctional behavior because it actually teaches you to lo loo because there's no downside. This actually is their money and it teaches them good habits. You mentioned you could also apply that, I think, to projects or other things as well. So do you want to talk about that a little bit? And then the second part is they use it for their passion project. So we had a girl who was building the first all-team produced Broadway musical. And, you know, she had to do her math. She got up to 790 math SAT. It funded. And it allowed her to get the money to fly to New York, to meet the producers, to figure all of that out.

And parents on either end of those are like, okay, those seem like good. It seems like. Right? And you get the motivation on the academics and it unlocks what they can do. And then second, funds things that parents are like, okay, this is all good. That is kind of how achievement as an adult works as well. A hundred percent. It's 100 percent. But getting back to the core about you're worried about intrinsic to extrinsic, kids have part of when you're trying to make kids help kids realize they're limitless and there's no blocks. Kids all have inherent blocks on what they can do. I'm not smart enough. I'm not a top. 1% kid. I'm not here. I don't have the daily habits. And so if you can use money to create the daily habits, every parent should, right? Because the daily habits are what's going to help them more than the downside. The second part is if you can break a block that's in their head, you should pay it. So here's my example. My oldest daughter was self-motivated on academics. So it didn't matter. But my youngest daughter is just like when she got to middle school she's like yeah I'm top 10% dad but that's good enough um I'm just I'm not like my older sister who's the smart one and I'm not and I'm not top

1% and I was like you know well the one thing I know about you you love to shop and I was like I bet you $1,000 you can't get to top 1% this is how a thousand dollars and she was like and she literally filled it Amazon gift card yeah with all these things and every day she'd look at it and And then she would go into the apps. And this causes controversy. Like my wife, we had a lot of family discussions about this, right? Because the two things are your paying kids. And second, are you saying standard is too high, right?

And so after she hit the $1,000, hit the $1,000, got the $1,000, bought everything she wanted. She sat down with my wife, right? And she's like, mom, look, I know you didn't like this. But here's what you have to understand, which is, I never thought I could do this. I never thought I was top 1%. And I now realize, I'm actually as smart as my older sister, and I can do anything she can do if I just put in the work.

That changing of how she saw herself, right? Every parent would pay $1,000, right? We spent $20,000 a year just in America. We spent $1,000 to get every kid to believe I can do anything and there's not these inherent blocks. I'll give you one other one. If I was, we had the Secretary of Education down at Alpha last week. And I was like, here's the number one thing if I was in charge of education to fix is, and it uses money, which is the reason kids can't learn and why, you know, our education in America starts to slow down in middle school.

And by the time you get to high school, kids basically aren't learning. The median high school student in America goes up one point on a 300 point scale in four years. Right. Now, your top 99% go about six points a year, so they're still crushing it. But your median person literally doesn't learn anything in high school. And it slows down in middle school. And the reason is, is because we have a time-based system, not a mastery-based system. And every learning science paper is, you just get Swiss cheese holes.

If you haven't mastered fractions, algebra is going to be really hard. And if you haven't mastered algebra, chemistry is going to be bad. Right? It's just, it's all hierarchical. And so what we do when we get these middle schoolers who are behind is we come in and we developed, you know, back to motivation really mattering. I sat down with the seventh graders, you know, this is three years ago. And I'm like, look, guys, you need to go back and fill a fourth grade hole.

And I learned immediately that seventh graders do not want to do that. There's no world where they want to go backward. And the only people who want that less is their parents. And I was yelled at. I mean, my kid needs to be a grade level. I'm like, that is not what the learning side said. He needs to go back and fix this. And anyway, I eventually had to give up on the parents

And I could never convince them And so I just went to the kids I'm like, guys, you could get 100 on the Texas Star The standardized test You're like, no, no, no, I'll give you $100 $100 for $100 for $100. They're like, it's still impossible, Mr. Lehman. I'm like, no, no, no, there's a catch

Any grade level And they're like, I can take a kindergarten test You're giving me $100. I'm like, well, Texas Star starts in third grade And they're like, done. They took the third grade test, get 100. Yeah. Take the fourth grade.

Can I be fourth grade? Yeah. 100. They go to fifth grade and don't get 100. They get an 85 or 75. The AI back to personalize why the personalized tutor matters, it generates all. I'm like, do you want it to generate all the lessons to get you to 100 that you missed that you need? They're like, let me see how many.

Yeah. They're like, I can do that in a week. Mm-hmm. Right. They do it, right? And you move them up. And that, we need to do that for everybody in America. Mm-hmm.

Right? because it does two things back to it. One, it whole fills all their issues, right, which will stop them from slowing down on learning. It'll keep it linear. And then second, their perception. Like, there's a view that the only people get 100 on a state test, on a standardized test are the smart GT kids.

Everybody can, right? Everybody can get 100 that you separate that. It's IQ versus effort. And I feel if you said why the athletic ethos doesn't come to academics, is because every parent, because of the time-based system we have and the system we do have, you know, in most schools, it is based on IQ, right? If you're good in normal school, you are both IQ coded and Big Five conscientious coded, right? Just all the data says that.

And this, our system literally separates that, where it's just like, we're going to give you personalized less than 80 to 85%. And if you just put the time in, you can master every subject, right, through the eighth grade. How do you think about, there's sort of this broader societal context right now where, you know, there's the sort of hate book around cuddling of the American mind and sort of things being too easy, lack resilience, etc. There's a separate thing, which is sort of this mental health wave that's gone through schools where if you look at things like autism spectrum disorder, it went from one in a few thousand to three percent of the population in terms of diagnoses. You have massive ADHD diagnoses and a lot of kids on Ritalin, which is effectively certain types of drugs. You have very strong perception of mental health crisis. for teenage girls and a lot of them end up unnecessary eyes. And so you have a mix of medication, diagnosis, all the other things that is really the milieu for or the context for schooling. How do you all think about that in the context of Alpha?

Yeah, all those things are true. And I believe part of it is because we have this terrible 12-year system that we subject the kids to. And if you literally sat down and, you know, said from first principles, what do we expect if we set low expectation, waste 95% of kids' life and put endless pressure on them? what happens after 12 years? You're like, I'm not good things.

And so, you know, and a lot of the diagnoses, right, IEPs and whether you're, you know, and why- It also gives kids more time in the school to take tests. Yeah, and so there's this whole thing

where fundamentally what an IEP is is trying to give your kid a personalized education, right? Everybody knows an individual tutor is better than one teacher in front of 30 kids. And so all these IEPs and- What does the IEP stand for? Sorry,

it's a plan. in a public school that gives you a basically it's an individualized plan yeah right for each kid yeah and you want a diagnosis because then you get one exactly right and dyslexia discraphia whatever ADHD whatever it is and you know when parents come to our school first you just talk to our parents who had all these diagnosis and now they're at alpha which is you know the once you go to alpha you're like well your kid's not going to sit in class for six hours and be bored you have the oh he's disruptive in the class yeah you know and he's he's a problem child, right? And all these things. And I need to met them up, you know, to solve it.

No, you don't. You just need them to engage for two hours of the app and then have the rest of the afternoon, not that. Right. And it completely transforms the kid. And, you know, back to just the over-diagnosing. I believe it's, I don't know if it's over-diagnosing, given the system it is. But in the alpha system, it's completely different. And I would say the second part about mental health issues, I believe a lot of it comes back to this low standards where, you know, we get into the middle, back to you, we'll focus on middle school, right? In middle school, you get in a whole set of girls, you know, who are like, I'm not a math science girl on the academic side. And second, I school TikTok all day. Uh-huh. Right. And you're like, where is this going? Yeah. Right. And it's

not going to be good. Right. And at our school, first of all, we have to make the kid love school. Right. And we have all day. We have half the day to do awesome stuff. Yeah. And so our workshop, One of the workshops we do is you do a values chart. Who do you want to be, right? Vision board. And these kids have awesome things they want to do. Yeah. Right?

And then you say, we do Japanese ikigai, right? You know, for all those known, what are you good at? And what's your passion and what does the world need? And then we do a 168-hour project. What do you spend every hour of your week? And, you know, and this girl came and she's like, well, Mr. Liman, I guess I'm going to be the best TikTok scroller. Yeah.

And it's the. exact opposite of what her vision chart was, but it was the realization of, right, that discrepancy. And then our job is to use her afternoons to have her become a creator, as we say. Like our middle school basically will take consumers and turn them into creators. And what parents need to understand is every kid actually wants to be awesome and wants to be a creator. And they don't wake up saying, I just want to be a video game player, TikTok scroller. They don't want to be. But our schools don't give them an out, right? And that's where this environment can totally unleash them because you're like, well, they don't have to do that. This sounds like a very awesome experience for the kids and very ambitious. It also sounds very expensive. So how do you, you said like the goal is a billion kids. How do you pay for a billion kids to have this type of experience? Sure. And so we're talking about Alpha. And so just back to the things we're building. So at Alpha, it's a high and branded school. So there's going to be in 100 cities. There's

going to be an alpha model. It's going to be expensive. Literally, when it was designed, we said pretend price is no object, you know, and just, and set that there. But now we're building out other schools, right, at half the price and lower, to where we actually have schools now down to 15,000, which is lower than your average public school spends today. And so we're, now it changes what your product is. So, for example, a sports academy is actually for kids. For kids, kids who love sports, you don't need all these expensive workshops. You just need a field and a coach. And you can have 25 to 1, right? So things of how, where you lower cost ratios. Schools are driven by how much you pay the teachers and what's the student teacher ratio.

Now, crazy part about the student teacher ratio is, you know, in normal school, because you're trying to just replicate and individualized learning, smaller class size is better, you know, in a lot of cases. But in our schools, it doesn't matter. Right? And if you actually ask our high school guides. And I was like, okay, I can double the pay for a guide, but you're going to have twice as big a class size. What do you guys want? They all vote for twice as big a class size. They want a more awesome person to help coach them. Right. And so you can fix your economics and drive that. So GT school also is very cheap. That the GT kids are like, oh, I want to do math Olympiad and robotics and relatively inexpensive workshops. And so those those are you know at a right now

they're 20 to 25,000 dollars. We're opening a Montessori one at that price point, sort of next-gen Montessori. And but we expect we will have hundreds of schools in Texas, this Texas Sports Academy next year a billion dollars of vouchers are coming. You get 10ish to $11,000, you know, at 15 grand. So four or $500 a month parent pay. And we can make this available. And you're running this as a for-profit, is that correct? Yes. So we run it as for-profit. We also have a big scholarship fund, right? And what sort of people are you trying to attract? Because I know one conversation that we were all having earlier was how people often wonder, can you make money in education? And you're really focused on let's build something incredibly impactful,

incredibly useful that also makes money. Are there specific types of people that you want to have join you on this effort or sort of what you're looking for? So my best goal out of this would be education is seen is it has to be nonprofit, it has to be funded by donations, and you have to be, you can't make any money. And anything that makes money, or if you bring capitalism to education, you are bringing evil into the world. And there's examples, so there's reasons why that, you know, historically. But that's not necessarily true. And that's what we're trying to show is that you can build great businesses, right, that are for profit, right? But that both have mission and money as of purpose. And so I'm trying to attract builders who,

you know, if we're going to reinvent education, right? If every kid, I guess we're here to stop up. If every kid's going to learn everything they need to know in two hours a day and there's going to be a tablet less than $1,000 for everybody in the world, right? That's coming. $1,000 for everybody in the world in two hours a day of what we spent all day in class for. Every family and society has to say, well, now how are we going to? educate our kids and what are our values and what do we want to allow. And I think part of what I'm trying to do is let's go get a bunch of builders to go build awesome products. Right? Those go build and for builders. Are you most looking for engineers? Are you looking for operations people to run

these schools at scale? Are you looking for all of them? So we're releasing time back, which is going to be a platform that you can build schools on. So literally you don't have to know, you know, all the learning science. It's going to be all packaged. Right. And then you basically do the afternoon. And so that's what this Texas Sports Academy is. It's literally it's coaches, you know, in a thousand school districts around Texas. So there's that aspect. There are set of coders and builders, which is once you start, most of ed tech does not use learning science, right? Which is one of the biggest issues.

And once you say, I'm going to build an app from the ground up based on learning science, right? You all of a sudden can say kids can learn in 20 hours. Like Math Academy is like the best math app that's out there, right? And that's a great, awesome team who, you know, if you want to learn about it, just go research all their stuff. But we need that for every subject, right? And so we need builders. And parents will pay. Like one of, I'll give you one aspect on top of time back that's being done is there's a AAA video game team, right, who is building a video game on top of it. And this video game is going to be both free to learn for everybody on the planet. But they also believe it will be the most profitable video game ever built, right? that there's just easily, you know, just in a miracle loan, there's 10 million moms will pay

a hundred bucks a month to have their kid be in the top one or five percent. And so as you think about, you know, getting it down to scale, there is a software element, right, that is going to be available for the software builders. But it is even builder. We need sort of the full stack. You know, you're going to have buildings in real estate and guides and teachers. But I think, you know, I think there's going to be just an explosion of different opportunities. I think for our audience, there's a lot of tech and business people. They'd be like, oh, well, you know, Joe's a software guy. He seems like a pretty competent executive.

And he's about to run into the wall of, like, the slowness of the education system and regulation and the fact that, like, most kids go to public school. Yeah. And there's a bunch of restrictions around what you can do and you can't get that time back. And so how do you think about, like, this is parallel system and how quickly you can make that transition or how, like, everyone should think about it. No, this is a great, because in my first year, part of when I got into this, I'm like, how do I make a business out of this?

And, you know, I put in the first billion and just said, okay, this is my seed fund, big seed fund, to be able to go figure this out. And, but a lot of it is I got to get this to product market fit that then could go funding. To rebuild education is going to take hundreds of billions of dollars. There's 10,000 buildings that need to be built, right? It's a huge endeavor. You know, every country is going to want its own LLM. Right. Because when you talk about sovereign AI, the number one use case of sovereign AI, it's either military education. Obviously, education is the one everyone wants to talk about. And so there's a, the investment here is going to be enormous. And so how do you build profitable models? So one of the things about education, you know, is your, you know, as you're doing your whatever mental model of which are beachhead. The private school market is huge. So the private school market in U.S. is already over $50 billion. And so if you want to go build a multi-

billion dollar company it's easy because these guys haven't innovated in a hundred years right and so all you don't have to fix public education on day one you can go just fix private you know back to scale there's a million kids in america who could afford 50,000 dollar tuition so if you want to go high in there's also as you go as you go move down the amount of private school vouchers and funding that's opened up is enormous so when you think about the scale Texas spends a hundred billion dollars a year on education annually. They just released a billion dollars in vouchers, right, that are going to be available, right, next year.

You can go build a great billion dollar business, right? And those are only going to increase over time. If you look at the big government, the federal bill that just passed, if you actually do all the math, I think Bloomberg just did it, they're like, there's like $200 billion of vouchers that are going to be available to parents to use on private. at school education. And so there's enormous amounts that are either already out there that parents pay for or a second that are coming, right?

And if you can build low-cost school models or these, you know, good, protected, awesome products for whatever your vision in niches, where's, you know, arts, theater, music school, et cetera. Given how much is available from a market perspective or revenue perspective, why has there been so little innovation? So a lot, a lot is everybody is only known. knows their education. So here's the big breakthrough you have to have to believe this. Back to the one is, if you think the only way to educate a kid is a teacher in front of a

classroom, you can't do this. The model does not work, right? You have to be willing to break that. And 99.9% of parents are not willing to think of that. Because even if I go build it, how do I convince parents, right, to come to my school? It took McKinsey two years. Yeah. Right. that's a really long sales cycle, you know, for one family. Yeah. And so you're, that's part of what we're trying to do and, you know, get out there and be the exemplar for everybody is you have to be willing to break the teacher in front of a classroom model.

And then once you do, you're like, okay, now everything can change and I can rebuild. If you could convince every relevant policy or lawmaker that has to do with education of something, what would you, what would you say? I'd say like, well, one thing is to make the default something that is time back powered or follows this model more. School's a hard bundle. And this is the problem. We got to get it to public school eventually. I believe it is going to be a long lift, right?

I think it is going to be a decade to get it to public school. And part of what we are doing is we have to show, we got to get the data, right? There's all these fads in education, ed tech, one more. Oh, my God, it's not going to work, all that. I'm like, let's go build. particular, like academic performance data you have. Well, my end's not big enough, right? Let's go get a million kids, right?

And let's do, why don't we do pharmaceutical grade randomized control trials for education? We don't do that at all, right? We, any latest fad is like, oh, this is what we're doing in schools these days, right? And I'm like, no, let's actually sit here and have the government sit and do, you know, studies where we're going to be able to say this works. Right. The learning science is there, right, where you could build products, run them through a test, right? And then be able to say, we should adopt this whole thing. There's been a lot of things that have been adopted in the last 25 years that are terrible. Yeah. Right. That you're just like, oh my God, I can't. And what's an example? There's a new way of coming back, which is the science of reading. But how we taught most of the kids to read, you know, 20 years ago is why they can't read. Right. Well, I'll take modern ones. Let's just take modern ones. Sure. Okay. We're not going to have. kid memorize or multiplication tables. That's bad. And I'm like, that is the worst thing you could do to a kid.

Yeah. That, you know, all the cognitive load theory, right, you know, you have working memory slots and then how many reps it takes to store into long-term schema. And you're working memory slots. You can't do advanced math problems. If you're in the middle, if you have limited working. If you're spending it trying to. Correct.

If you're an advanced math problem and you're doing seven times eight and seven times eight to you is still a calculation. Yeah. Right? you're doomed, right? There's just, there's no way around it. You'll start making careless errors, you know, I have plenty of stories around this. All the kids who transfer into our school from, you know, public and private do not know their memorization, their multiplication division cases.

It's considered bad now. It's considered terrible. And so you're like, let's go back to this. And there's a bigger wave coming. There's a bigger wave coming, which is the current school system does not know what's about to hit it. Chat GPT, first of all, we wouldn't even get into the technology. chat is literally the worst thing in the world. If you give kids chat,

CHPT in school and academics, 90% will use it for cheating. It is a cheat bot. It is not a chat bot. It is terrible. And so like in our academic two hours, there is no chat functionality. We've tried,

and the kids all jailbreak it and get around it. And so it's terrible. And so kids are knowing less and less, and the current system is not set up to stop that. writing is prompting. Kids write one prompt and they think I'm a writer. But writing is thinking, right? And the best way to read to learn something long term deep and rewrite, restructure your schema is writing.

And no kids are doing that anymore. There's also a whole set who are like, well, we don't need to know anything, right? We don't need facts in our brains because chat, GPT. There was a wave with Google years ago. Yeah. And they're just like, we don't need to know that. Yeah. But here's the problem.

this next sentence out of the same parent's mouth is, but I want my kid to critically think. Yeah. Right? And that concept, there is no learning science that will support that concept. None. You know, if you have LLMs

who try to reason with no facts, we call it hallucination. And that is basically what kids are doing. If you don't give them a fact base, and their opinions, you're just making stuff out. You have to reason over a fact base. So you have to put facts in.

Now, AI, in these learning, things we can put in those facts super fast it's like neo upload in the matrix right we can AI take away because it could cause cheating but it also give it where you're like okay we can get kids into kids brain 10 times faster they don't have to spend six hours but that concept right of all these things so when you talk about policy and stuff don't deploy chat GPT sorry guys you know in its current form go rebuild everything around learning science concepts right you need basically the LLM to have the concepts of learning science, which inform it. And then if I was running a school, the problem with schools is it is a bundle. And, you know, I talk to principals and superintendents

in public schools. And I mean, their job's a hundred times harder than mine. Like theirs is because you don't, as a product guy, they don't have a customer base. They have to serve everybody. Yeah. And so you have customer and the opposite. Right. So like there's three schools in Austin that they're failing, you know, F's for years, kids aren't learning. And the superintendent's like, okay, I'm going to shut it down and we're going to meet the kids good school academically. The parents are, you know, protesting around the school and they're like, I don't care that the seventh grade math teacher is not teaching math because my older daughter had that

teacher and she transformed her life. And so I'm willing to give up seventh grade math academics in order to get that other benefit. And so as a superintendent or principal, you're like, what do you do it? And so it's a hard problem for these to transform because your parents and your community base, right, want very different things in that bundle that they think is best for their kid. And so some version is going to be allow, you know, and funding for different versions of the bundle. Yeah. I guess if I had to do the, it's, I believe if you want to sit and say, what is the bundle, school choice is one way to do it. And that brings private market in, you know, but how do you. support and buttress the public school system, I believe there are a set of academic things we can do

where we are working with, we do have some pilots and, you know, a few thousand public school students where MTSS level three, if you know what that is, that's your bottom 10% kids, where schools have the most flexibility. So, for example, we were doing one over in Fremont. And, you know, the hardest part of it isn't, okay, does the app work? It's like motivation's 90% of the answer. How are you going to motivate the kid who has to sit in class still for six hours a day to actually engage with the app. And the kids are like, I'm not going to do it, right? You can't take our, it doesn't matter. Yeah, ed tech doesn't matter. You put our ed tech and put it in his classroom. It's not going to work. It's the motivation model. And so we got the school, because they're, you know, at MTSS level

three, they're like, we can use gift cards. And you're like, okay, kid, do the lesson, just get a gift card. Right. And, you know, or, oh, wait, let's build a video game that they'll play. or, you know, whatever it is where if you don't solve motivation, all this ed tech doesn't matter, whether an AI, too, none of it matters. And the reason kids use AI to cheat is because they're just trying to get through the system, not trying to learn. And everybody's like, I just hope they're self-driven learners who just have a love learning. And you're like, there is 5 to 10% of the market. You should give them chat GPT and Socratic tutoring. They'll love it.

The other 90% are like, how do I get through this? And that's the, you know, if you talk to most kids and say what the highlight of your day is, 90% of kids are like lunch, talking to my friends, recess. And I'm like, we waste 12 years of kids lives, right? And we're just like, how about we stop? Before we're out of time, can we talk a little bit about like where ed tech does matter if you even considered ed tech like where you are on the product today? And what ambition do you have for it to like be better for engineers and researchers, whoever else would go work for you? I mean, the problem with ed tech today and why it's failed and nobody wants to invest in it is you're trying to sell to a school system who actually doesn't care about academic outcomes back to the bundle. And you can't change the metrics that matter. And so you can't get any money for it. So there's no, right, there's no ARPOO. And then endlessly long sales cycles.

And then second, your product's actually not that good. Sorry ed tech guys. It's just not that good. and go rebuild a product based on the concepts of learning science and build an awesome product, right? Have a much higher standard of what your product has to do. And that, I believe, can change things. Like, you know, the fact, math academy, right?

How many math apps are there? A zillion of them. I mean, the results that you get with math academy are just step function different than everybody else. You know, it only takes 28 hours for fourth grade math academy, 26 hours for fifth grade, 22, right, for sixth and seventh grade. I mean, to master the material, but there's all the other math apps. Don't do that. Right. But he has a 500-page book on the learning science behind Math Academy. And so that concept, right, if you're not, you have to go back and rebuild your product based on these fundamentals. that just ed tech never adopted. And I believe then, the second one I would do is, in the meantime, because the school,

straight to schools is a failed model, parent willingness and propensity to pay for education that their kids love is enormous. So this is back to the other side of the market. It doesn't matter what your income is. Parents will pay 10% of AGI, right, of their income on their kids' education. Societies pay 5%. I mean, it's a $7 trillion industry. We spend a ton of money in this country.

And if you have a solution, right, that kids love to engage in, right, that does deliver awesome academic outcomes, parents will pay for that. And we need builders who wake up and say, that's what my job is, not running the bureaucracy at, you know, the school boards and all that stuff. So there's more flexibility with kids that are struggling. in the public school system, if you're going to be more aggressive than that, what else would you do? The number one thing that I would do is the 100 for 100 program that we do, which allows kids to go back and master all their basics, right, no matter what their eighth grade

and knowledge grade are different. That program that we run, we need to run that for everybody in America. And for $400, maybe $500 of incentive, remember, average education, right? We spend lots We spend up to 20 grand a kid. $500. We can totally fix and change the trajectory and all these bad test scores and all of that by making sure we're motivating the kid to go back and do this. Why is this your mission? Like you have kids who have successfully gotten through, you know, old system, new system, right?

Or are almost through in the case of your younger daughter. You know, you're financially independent. You've built a company before. Like, why go all the way weighed back into this mess of a very hard space? Yeah, because it's awesome. So I obviously had a good career beforehand. And three years ago, my last three years in principle. So this would be my last message to the builders out there.

I did fine before. It was good. There was nothing to complain about it. The last three years have been so awesome, right? There is nothing more important for society than raising its next generation, right? It is the definition of whether it continues. And kids are possible, right? And when you sit and say, we can transform what their decades going to be like or their first 12 years or even beyond it, right?

The rewards you get out of this are just 10x, right? It's just, and we didn't even get into the student stories coming out or the parent stories. You know, you transform lives. And so if you say, you know, my kids now are gone, right? And so I spent the 20 years with them. know, and then now it's like, what am I going to do my next 20 years? This is going to be the best 20 years of my life. It's going to be awesome. And so I believe what we do need, it's societally important, and we need to go get builders like this to say, we're going to bring new insights,

new ways, even business and capitalism, to education. And I couldn't look forward to, you know, more than I do. So this is incredibly inspiring. Thank you so much for joining us today. Thank you very much. Appreciate it. Find us on Twitter at NoPriarsPod. Subscribe to our YouTube channel if you want to see our faces, follow the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen. That way you get a new episode every week. And sign up for emails or find transcripts for every episode at no dash priors.com.