Noble Blood - A Ploughman's 'Uprising' (with Dan Jones)

Episode Date: September 8, 2026

In the new film Uprising, a ploughman played by Andrew Garfield joins in the 1381 Peasants' Revolt against Richard II of England. Historian Dan Jones served as the medieval consultant on the film, and joins us to discuss the movie, and his upcoming book, CASTLES. Support Noble Blood:—ORDER 'THE ARCANE ARTS'— Bonus episodes, stickers, and scripts on Patreon— Order Dana's book, 'Anatomy: A Love Story' and its sequel 'Immortality: A Love Story'See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an I-Heart podcast. Guaranteed human. Get Bell Pure Fiber Internet with Crave, Netflix, and Disney Plus from $94 a month. Price guaranteed for two years on Internet with a two-year term and auto pay credit. Visit bell.ca for details and to check availability. Bell, connection is everything. Welcome to Decoding Women's Health. I'm Dr. Elizabeth Pointer, chair of Women's Health and Gynecology at the Atria Health Institute in New York City.

I'll be talking to top research. and clinicians, and bringing vital information about midlife women's health directly to you. A hundred percent of women go through menopause. Even if it's natural, why should we suffer through it? Listen to Decoding Women's Health with Dr. Elizabeth Pointer on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. What up, y'all, this your main man, Memphis Bleak right here, host of that rock solid podcast. And each week, we bring in you exclusive looks inside music, everything happening inside the culture. Some of the best conversations were the biggest names in the game.

You had a little bit more pressure to be good. And they didn't care if you was a girl. Like, you wasn't getting no points. If you're not trash, you better be not just good. You better be great. Listen to Rock Solid on Black Effect Podcast Network, IHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you streamed podcast. Welcome to Noble Blood, a production of IHeart Radio and Grim and Mild from Aaron Manky. discretion advised. I am thrilled to be joined today by one of my all-time favorite historians, Dan Jones, acclaimed historian TV presenter, bestselling author.

His newest book castles, A Fortified History of the World, is coming out, I believe in the U.S., November 2nd, 2026. And he's also found time to serve as the medieval consultant on the newest Paul Greengrass film, The Uprising, which will be out September, 10th. Dan, thank you so much for joining me. Well, thank you for all those accolades. To be one of your favorites is truly a life goal. So thank you, Dana. It's nice to talk to you again. Am I missing any massive accomplishments? God, there are just so many, aren't there? No, I think that'll do for now. Have you been knighted yet? Do you know what? I haven't been knighted,

but my wife has been inducted into the order of merit. She's just been awarded by the King of England, the MBE. So she's a member of the Order of the British Empire. But she's a do-gooder. She started a charity 10 years ago, and they recognize that sort of thing in the UK with far more readiness than they do enormous sales of historical books

and accomplishments in films. So good for her. She's carrying that load for us, yeah. So I want to talk especially about the movie uprising, which tells a fictionalized version of the peasant revolt of 1381. But forgive me if I'm wrong. I don't recall the peasant revolt of 1381 ever being put to film,

despite it being a massive historical event in the history of England. I have not seen another film about the Peasants' Revolt of 1381, and that's not for want of desire. You know, 20 years ago, I wrote a book called Summer of Blood. It was the first historical book that I wrote about this incredibly dramatic event with these extraordinary cinematic set pieces that really happened, you know, from the end of the 14th century in the aftermath of the Black Death. Yeah.

And thought, as I was writing it, I mean, this is, it's a wild and sprawling story in the historical sources, but it has these extraordinary moments of drama. And the great Paul Greengrass, you know, director of Bourne films and, you know, most recently The Lost Bus and so many other amazing movies, Captain Phillips, has now turned his hands to dramatizing it. I mean, you've seen the movie. You know what it's like. We did see it together.

I didn't want to get the listeners jealous. They're already jealous enough that I get to talk to you. Okay, listeners, don't be envious, but Dana came to watch the screening of the film. You know what it's like? It's an epic. It's extraordinary. It's an epic. And a shockingly relevant, the themes of peasants, the common people understanding that they've been abused by the wealthy,

who don't actually acknowledge them as people and rising up together, I think they're very universal themes and moments. But I want to start at the beginning. for listeners who maybe aren't familiar with the Peasants Revolt specifically, it takes place under Richard the second. For audiences who maybe know Richard the first, the Lionheart, you know, we know Richard the third,

Shakespeare's hunchback, but who is Richard the second in the middle? Well, like many trilogies, the best one is the second. I mean, you know, the Empire Strikes Back Godfather Part 2. So we're in the end of the 14th century. The Black Death has happened 1347, 8, 9. Not a happy time to be in English.

Well, no, no, you're either alive or dead, and neither was perfect. So the calamitous 14th century, as Barber Touchman called it, is drawing towards its end. The country's been hammered by the Black Death. There's an ongoing conflict for 100 years' war, which has been draining public finances. The golden age of chivalry under, you know, the rebirth of chivalry under Edward the Third, the Black Prince, is now receding into the realm of memory because Edward III is dead, having died kind of decrepit senile long past his sell-by dates. The Black Prince is supposedly his successor, has now died also. And they've left as King, a boy, Richard II, who's 10 years old when he becomes King in 1777. And four years later, policies enacted in his name by his sort of cohort of

nobles, bishops and officials, merchants, have pushed the burden of economic distress caused by the war further and further down the social scale until it's resting heavily on ordinary people, peasants, which is a large class, but ordinary villagers. At the same time, they've also passed a raft of laws which have prevented

those ordinary people from reaping the benefits of living past the Black Death, which should have been higher wages, better conditions, freedom from serfdom. These have all been legally restricted. And what you end up with is it in the Timberbox. So in the summer of 1381,

There are rising movements, particularly in southeast England, Essex, Kent, the counties around London, where the ordinary people have had enough. And as we see brilliantly in Paul's movie, Andrew Garfield playing a fictionalised character called The Plowman, he snaps and he says, enough, you've taken enough from us. And that really captures, I think, the spirit of disquiet and rage that was rising amongst ordinary people in England at this time. There's a moment early on in the film that I found very striking. At this period, as you said, restricting what should have been the advances after the Black Death with fewer workers. You know, the workers should have more bargaining power.

But instead they enact higher taxes. And there's a scene early in the film where there's a poll tax for every adult. And they are physically checking women to see if they are of age. Is that something that actually occurred? Yes. as accounts of the beginning of the rebellion had it, that was one of the deplorable techniques, moves, abuses that were pulled by tax collectors going out to assess a poll tax. So the taxation that was leveled on ordinary people was known as a poll tax. There were three different versions of it,

but essentially rather than landholders being taxed for a percentage of the value of their lands, ordinary people were taxed at a fixed rate per head, so it's a regressive tax, and the tax was levied on adults. So tax collectors had a duty, but also an interest in proving that people were adult, were of age, and in the case of young girls, were past the age of puberty. And so we have these stories from the chronicles leading up to the rebellion of tax collectors going in and physically manhandling girls to check that. And that, that's a lot of, sort of event in the sources is something I think that, as you saw in the movie, it speaks volumes on screen. It's very hard in a movie to explain the intricacies of medieval tax policy.

And Paul is a great filmmaker and has more sense than to try and do that, you know, through exposition. But, you know, you see tax collectors going into a village and sticking their hands up girls' skirts, you know immediately this is a system in which everything is going very badly wrong. It's gone too far. the thing about a system of serfdom is I think people sometimes hear that, and it doesn't really sound quite as bad as it is. But what did it actually entail to sort of be fixed to land as a worker? From the time of the Norman conquest and earlier, this institution of serfdom had existed. It's not very far from slavery.

So if you're a serf, if you're an unfree peasant, you are more or less bound to the land. There will be a lord who owns the land and you, the worker, will be allowed to live on that land in exchange for doing a certain amount of day's labour service every year to your lord, to paying certain taxes, usually in kind of animals or crops. There's a whole bunch of occasions and reasons why you would be asked to do that. You would give the bulk of your labour to enriching the person and the social system above you. and critically you're not free to leave their land. You are bound to the land and so are your children. It's in perpetuity through the family. It's possible to obtain freedom, but it's very difficult.

One of the other conditions of serfdom would be that you were denied access to the royal courts, to systems of lawmaking, to legal freedoms that would be available to free people. These were denied to serfs. Now, what happens after the Black Death is that serfdom, which had been, gradually withering before the Black Death, and as the economy of England had become more sophisticated, peasants were being released from the conditions of serfdom and allowed to pay rents, and there was more of a cash economy. In the aftermath of the Black Death, in order that landlords should free themselves from the rising costs in a cash economy of a halving of the workforce, i.e. much higher rates for labour and collapsing rents, disaster for a landlord.

they were trying to reimpose serfdom. And they were doing that by pulling out bits of paper, let's call the paper, parchment, old documents going back to the Doomsday Book that said, hang on, your great, great, great, great grandfather was a serf at the time of William the Conqueror. That's hereditary. Get back on the land and work my land for free.

Now, the reimposition of serfdom, understandably, irks a lot of people and went alongside things like regressive poll taxes. you end up with a situation, and this is probably somewhat analogous or feel somewhat analogous to the world today, you end up with a situation where the mass of ordinary people feel like the whole system is rigged against them. And there's a wealthy elite at the top who control everything, who control the tax system, who control politics,

who control the law, who control the direction of travel, who control the conversation of the country. The whole thing is loaded to an elite who are actively out to do down, and oppress the ordinary people. That's the feeling that's building in 1370s in the years that lead up to the Peasant Revolveld. So we understand sort of the Tinder.

What actually happens when these groups of people begin fighting back? What actually happens in the 1381 Peasants Rebellion? Well, it begins in the late spring to early summer of 3081, and tax collectors go out into the sharp, of England to investigate tax evasion of the most recent old tax. And they try, as we've discussed, and as Paul brilliantly shows in the movie, they use pretty heavy-handed tactics. And finally, they push the ordinary people too far. And there are, in a number of villages across Essex

and Kent in particular, there is spontaneous but somewhat organized resistance. So villagers snap, they refuse to pay the tax. And, And then there's an organisation, there's a coordination of villages around that area where this village says we're not paying, the next village says we're not paying. And suddenly there's this ground swell of anti-government, anti-tax, anti-oligarch feeling. And the movement starts to build. And through networks of, particularly of travelling priests in the mould of and most famously led by John Ball, who's brilliantly played by Jamie Bell in the movie, this coordination there are a lot of military veterans, such as Watt Tyler,

maybe the most famous name from the Peasants Revolt, who've had lots of military experience fighting in the King's Wars in France and Scotland, who take up military leadership. And by the time you get to late May into early June of 1381, there are, if we believe the chroniclers, tens of thousands, maybe as many as 100,000, that's probably a high estimate, but there are tens of thousands of people marching towards England's capital, London, They basically follow the River Thames upriver, which takes you on the south side of it to a place called Blackheath, a large open space where the rebels camp.

And by this stage they're in communication with sympathetic Londoners who control access to the city via the bridge and its gates, and also with the royal court of the boy king, Richard II. And what the rebels want, and Paul shows this in the film, more than anything else, is to talk to the king, because this is a boy king, a teenager, He's 14 years old, and the whole country has been encouraged since the start of his reign to invest their hopes in this sort of... Messianic figure. Messianic figure, that's exactly right, Don't know. And they want to meet with the king, and they believe with a touching, but in some sense, it's harrowing, it's not a peasant pun, harrowing naivety, that if they can just talk to the king,

he will understand that he's been led astray by corrupt officials, and he will restore justice where the law has failed. And so that's the setup we have by the time we get to Corpus Christi weekend, a big festival weekend in London in the second week of June, 1981. Get Bell Pure Fiber Internet with Crave, Netflix, and Disney Plus

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on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you're listening now. I always found fascinating about the Peasants' Revolt, and I think kind of the main thing I understood about it was that they breached the Tower of London, which to my mind was unbreechable. How does that happen? That's a great historical question, which again, I think Paul answers definitively and convincingly, and in accordance with the historical sources in the movie. So the rebels gain access to London because there are sympathetic Londoners who allow them across London Bridge, which was controlled by gates and a drawbridge. That's opened, the rebels get into London. When that happens, Richards, the second, the Boy King's, advisors, suggest that he does meet the rebels,

which he does just outside the city walls to the east in a place called Mile End. Seems like the least he could do. You've got to do something, right? You've got to do something. And they have this moment, again, depicted brilliant in the film, where there's a question asked, Do we use the king as bait? To what extent is the king actually interested in meeting these people? He's a boy. He can hear them chanting his name, as it were, from within the Tower of London, the most secure fortress in London, but in the southeast corner of the city. So they send the king out to meet rebels at Myel End. And the rebels present him with a petition that says we'd like, you know, there's a whole range of demands.

But they want charters of freedom, charters of manumption, charters that guarantee that they're not going to be you know, reduced the condition of surfs anymore, what rents are going to be on their land. And there's a moment at Myland where the rebels, and led by in the movie by John Ball, say, we want permission to go hunt the traitors, the people around the king who have been responsible for all of these terribly damaging policies. And Richard critically says, okay, you can. Now, at that point, the rebels return to London with this message. The king has said we can hunt traitors and somehow gain access to the Tower of London. Now, the Tower of London, then as now, is not easy to storm.

So I think it's almost certain that sympathises within the Tower let the rebels in. And it feels like, you know, this is a revolution. The spirit of revolution is absolutely upon the country. And it feels in that moment, this is it. the thing is actually happening. So someone within the Tower of London, we don't know who, opens the gates, I think, and I know this is the way that's depicted in the movie,

and once the rebels get into the tower, all hell breaks loose, and they lay hands on the Archbishop of Canterbury, who's also the Lord Chancellor, effectively the Prime Minister of the Day, Simon Sudbury. Sidebar, within the movie, there are some heads locked off,

and I think Paul really captures the spiraling, bloody violence at the time. sidebar, anyone who goes to see the movie and wonders what happens to the Archbishop of Canterbury's head. Well, in Sudbury, which is a village in North Essex, it's in the church. And if you ring up the verger of the church in Sudbury and say, hey, can I come see Simon Sudbury's head? You can see the head that was chopped off in June 1381. They keep it in the little box. I've seen it. They keep the head in the box?

What has kept it? How is it preserved? What is happening with this head? It's without question ahead. As I recall, it's, I mean, God, it was when I was writing the books. It's nearly 20 years ago since I last went to Cedar Head, and I haven't revisited. I'm overdue a visit back. You have to pay your respects.

It's a medieval skull. I think it's got scraps of skin left on it, but don't take my word for it. If you Google this, you can see it. And there was some work done in the last decade or so on the skull. I think you knew that when I was gripping your shoulder during the bloody bits, I'm not going to Google this skull. Let me just very briefly tell you. there was some work done 10 or so years ago, where you know that when they scan the skull,

they did it with Richard III, and then rebuild what Simon Sudbury would have looked like. There's a non-severed version of Subby's head, which was reconstructed by academics working on from the skull. Fascinating. So the king possibly gives the rebels permission to breach the tower, to take revenge on the traitors.

But ultimately, and not to spoil history, these peasants don't get everything they want, this rebellion, like so many medieval peasant rebellions, is ultimately put down. And how does that go? Yes. So there's a whole sort of orgy of violence that spirals out after Richard's allowed the rebels to hunt traitors.

Subsequent to that, there's another meeting set up at Smithfield in which Richard will once again go and meet the rebels, and they're going to present him with even more demands. This time, an extremely radical set that says we're going to do away with all lords, all bishops. There's just going to be the commons, the true common. and the king, and that's going to be it. But this time, the grown-ups around the king,

led by the mayor of London, an extremely wealthy oligarch called William Walworth, dastardly character, as portrayed in the uprising in the movie, they got a plan, and it's an ambush, and the rebels are led out to see their king. They sort of fall to the knees in wonder, and I suspect they're also extremely hung over and exhausted when they see him.

But then they're ambushed by troops, and they're led away from London. In the weeks and months that follow, there's a violent and bloody crackdown on the rebellion. Now, in Paul's movie, this is compressed into the actions that follow from Smithfield onwards. I mean, and it's very well done. He gets the spirit of the ambush, the betrayal of the rebellion by the king, who has flipped from saying, yes, you can hunt traitors to, yes, we're going to string you all up. I hesitate to say the death of the dream, but the rebellion is squashed.

But what's interesting about the Peasants' Revolt is that the genie is out of the box, as it were, the bottle. Genies don't live in boxes, do they live in bottles? Heads live in boxes, Dan. Heads live in boxes, genies live in bottles, they've both come out. The spirit of the ordinary people having a stake and a say in politics, or at least being a consideration in politics, has entered discourse now. the poet John Gower says, writing around this time, there are three things that you have to beware of because when they get out of control, you're in big trouble.

The first is a raging fire. The second is a flood of water. And the third is the common people because it once provoked, they can't be stopped by reason or discipline. So it now becomes a sort of heuristic of medieval politics that if you push the ordinary people too far, you are in big trouble.

And we see it. I mean, throughout the 100 years war, there's going to be opportunities, I'm sure, that kings would want to raise taxes. Right, but it has now been definitively proven that if you've got to beware levying a poll tax, I mean, sure, I remember growing up in the UK, certainly in the 80s and early 90s, Margaret Thatcher levied a poll tax, and the same thing happened. There were riots in London. She had to roll back the policy.

So it's become axiomatic in British politics since 1881, do not levy poll taxes on the ordinary people. But I think beyond that, and this is another thing that the uprising shows, you know, without, I think, too much of a spoiler. As well as politically, there's a cultural survival of this idea that exists through the genre of outlaw ballads, outlaw literature, that rises at exactly the same time as the Peasants Revolt. And that's stories, there's one called Gamalyn, one called Adam Bell,

one called Clim of the Clough, but the most famous is Robin Hood. And the medieval Robin Hood, who emerges in the late 14th century, just as the Peasant Revolt is happening, is a character who could have stepped from Tyler's army, who could easily have walked shoulder to shoulder with Andrew Garfield as Plowman. He's a violent yeoman who has been pushed to the edge of society and the end of his tether

by the unjust royal officials. And so there's no coincidence these two things rise out of the post-Black Death world, I think. It's very well said. So even though the uprising itself might not have had a happy ending. Its impact could be felt literally for centuries throughout English politics. Yeah, that's true. And I think that like the best historical stories, it has something to say to us in the world today as well. And although we're 700 years removed and, you know, sitting here

on the west coast of the United States, 6,000 miles removed from these little villages of Essex and Kent, this idea that ordinary people pushed to the limit, will take matters into their own hands and will unite under the banner of justice and a better world. That has been a part of the Western tradition for the last 700 years. And this phrase to return to Barbara Churchman, this is a distant mirror for us to reflect on our own times. And I think Paul is such a brilliant filmmaker. The movie that he's made is not polemic and it's not dogmatic.

It's an exciting two hours, edge of your seat, historical epic, but fundamentally it's entertaining. It's drawn out of history. I hope that people who go and watch this movie will not only convert to being fans of medieval history will also just have that opportunity to reflect on our own times, wherever they sit on the political spectrum. And I think that one of the great things he's done with this movie

is to invite people to reflect without telling them what to think. And that is the mark of a real, sophisticated and brilliant storyteller. Incredibly well said. Richard II, I find a very interesting figure. At the end of his life, he's going to be framed as a tyrant when he's a spoiler alert later in his life overthrown by the future Henry IV.

But where do you rank Richard II among medieval monarchs? The worst and the best. And the worst in the sense that he was the one who most comprehensively, and I think knowingly and willingly subverted everything that one was supposed to do as king. You know, where kings were supposed to be militaristic, he was pacifistic. Where they were supposed to be fair-minded, he was violently a partisan. Where they were supposed to be public spirited, he was private-minded and had a sort of private army. He was a tyrant.

He was a lunatic. He was the product of inbreeding. He was a great example of everything you shouldn't do in making and then maintaining a king. and he lost the crown and ultimately began the wars of the roses. He was self-pitying. You know, Shakespeare gets him bang to rights. Bang to rights in the Richard II player, he has Richard sort of flounce and throw himself to the ground

and say, for God's sake, let us sit upon the ground and tell sad stories of the death of kings, how some have been deposed, some slain in war, some haunted by the ghost they have deposed, some poisoned by their wives, some sleeping killed, all murdered. And he's doing this off the cuff, for the record. He's not reading his big Shakespearean tone while he quotes this. just so the listeners now.

I've probably slightly got some of that wrong. But, you know, he says, but within the hollow crown that bounds the mortal temples of a king keeps death his court. You know, he blames the crown. He blames the country. He's always blaming somebody else.

He's a sort of, he's not only a tyrant, but a pathetic figure. That's the worst. That's the worst. The reason I think he's the best is because aren't we just captivated by the nutters? Like, it's so exciting. It's so dramatic.

He's so extra. He does all. this in the fanciest costumes. And he was a child for so much of this. Gosh, you are such a mother, aren't you? He was a child. He was 10. It's a great example of how not to raise a child. Yes, this is a good reminder. I do have a son. You have a son. Do not let him believe he is the Messiah, Dana, because I'm telling you, he'll grow up to be a tyrant. Well, he's a toddler, so I am working on that. You've got to start early. You've got to, you've got to, in place. the lessons I'm telling you, but as a historian and as a parent. Thank you. Now, before I let you go,

I want to talk very briefly about castles. Why did you choose to make the focus of your book, castles? It connects to the peasants' revolt, right? What's the greatest historical site in London? It's the Tower of London. The near-improngnable Tower of London. Nearly impregnable. Look, castles are these iconic buildings from the Middle Ages, but they have this big history that takes us all the way back to the Bronze Age to Troy, you know, the emergence of castles in Bronze Age Citadel's, and come all the way forward to the US Civil War, you know, the third system fortresses, which were sort of blown to bits with the arrival of rifle cannon, and then to nuclear bunkers. So looking at castles, it gives me the opportunity to do something I love, which is to tell

big stories on a grand scale, huge narratives, sweeping kind of world history. But it also, kind of emotional touchpoint with them, I believe, which is why I have people built these monumental fortresses over the years to protect things that they love. And what those things have been has changed and what the function of the castle is has changed. It used to be militaristic. But now, if you think, I mean, Disneyland, it's the dream guardian of the great American project and the American dream. So castles is a sort of past to go wandering through the greatest, greatest areas of human history. Have you been to Disneyland yet? Okay, here's a lesson.

Have you ever been to Disneyland? No, Dane. I've never been to Disneyland. And actually, like, really shamefully, and I do regret this, I always refuse to take my kids because I just, I can't. Don't be that. Do take your son to Disneyland. I'm just saying you're writing about castles. You're in Los Angeles. I should go, shouldn't I? If you're going to go see Sudbury's head, you should at least go see a castle. Do you want to make a deal?

Yeah, what's the deal? I'll go to Disneyland. and if you go see Archbishop Simon Sudbury's head from the Peasants Revolt. Well, I'm going to York in the spring, so that will absolutely happen. We're going to do this. Fine. Okay. I'll be back. I'll be back in the U.S. in November. So this is all going to work out nicely. Dan, thank you so much for joining me. I won't take up. I know you have a very busy day talking about the Peasants Rebellion of 1381.

The Uprising, starring Andrew Garfield, is out September 10th. Dan's new book. He's just a treasure, the most readable historian, I think we have. Thank you so much for joining us. See you at Disneyland. Thank you, Dan. Noble Blood is a production of IHeart Radio and Grim and Mild from Aaron Manke. Noble Blood is hosted by me, Dana Schwartz. Writers for Noble Blood are Hannah Johnston, Hannah Zwick, Paul Jaffe, Natasha Lasky, and me, Dana Schwartz. The show is edited and produced by Jesse Funk and Nome's Gripen with supervising producer Rima Il Kali and executive producers Aaron Manky, Trevor Young, and Matt Frederick. For more podcasts from IHeartRadio, visit the IHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. Welcome to Decoding Women's Health. I'm Dr. Elizabeth Pointer, chair of Women's Health and Gynecology at the Adria Health Institute in New York City.

I'll be talking to top researchers and clinicians and bringing vital information about midlife women's health directly to you. A hundred percent of women go through menopause. Even if it's natural, why should we suffer through it? Listen to Decoding Women's Health with Dr. Elizabeth Pointer on the Iheart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. What up y'all, y'all, Memphis Bleak right here, host of that rock-solid podcast. And each week, we bring in you exclusive looks inside me. music, everything happening inside the culture. Some of the best conversations were the biggest names in the game.

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