Noble Blood - Anne Boleyn and Elizabeth I (with Tracy Borman)

Episode Date: July 11, 2023

Dana is joined by the Tudor historian—and Joint Chief Curator of Historic Royal Palaces—Tracy Borman to discuss her latest book, Anne Boleyn and Elizabeth I, and how two of British history's most famous women created their own legacies.Sign up for Dana's history writing course!Support Noble Blood:— Bonus episodes, stickers, and scripts on Patreon— Merch!— Order Dana's book 'Anatomy: A Love Story' and its sequel 'Immortality: A Love Story'See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an I-heart podcast. Guaranteed Human. What's up, everyone? I'm Ago Vodam. My next guest, it's Will Ferrell. Woo, woo, woo, woo. My dad gave me the best advice ever. He goes, just give it a shot.

But if you ever reach a point where you're banging your head against the wall and it doesn't feel fun anymore, it's okay to quit. If you saw it written down, it would not be an inspiration. It would not be on a calendar of, you know, The cat just hang in there. Yeah, it would not be. Right, it wouldn't be that. There's a lot of luck.

Listen to Thanks, Dad, on the IHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome to Noble Blood, a production of IHeart Radio and grim and mild from Aaron Manky. Listener discretion advised. Hello, I am so delighted to be joined today by the brilliant historian and author Tracy Borman. She's written so many both novels and brilliant works of history, including Elizabeth's women, which I would say is like the seminal work on the court of Elizabeth I'm first, realizing now that might be an incorrect word choice, but has written brilliantly all about the tutors, and her latest book is Anne Boleyn and Elizabeth I'm first.

The first, I believe the first, if I'm correct, dual biography of the two women. Yes, which is extraordinary because they're two. of the best known women in history. And yet their stories have never been told together. And I have wanted to ever since writing Elizabeth's women, actually, because Anne Boleyn could only have a chapter of that book. There were 50 other women who I wrote about. And I always wanted to go back because I found out enough to really intrigue me and think, you know what, there's more of a story here. So it's been an absolute joy, just very forensically looking at their duals. history. I would love to get started with Anne Boleyn, who is one of the most popular figures in the

popular imagination of the Tudor Court, I think for good reason. Why do you think she is such an intriguing figure for so many years? Yeah, and wouldn't Henry VIII have hated that, that we're still talking about her more than the other five wives. I think a lot has to do with the fact that Anne seems to us actually strikingly modern. She was a woman who wasn't content just to conform to the stereotype of a Tudor woman who was very much a second-class citizen submissive to the men in her family, whereas Anne arrives like a rocket on the English scene from France, and she's full of ideas about female power and she wants to put them into effect.

And I love the fact, as I think my name, many people do that, you know, she stood up to Henry the 8th and, you know, she gave as good as she got, but ultimately it was sort of her undoing that and, of course, her failure, as Henry saw it, to give him a son. But of course, as well as being modern, it's also incredibly dramatic and ultimately tragic. And I think that that holds a kind of timeless appeal. I've seen people, a historian, sort of over the centuries, frame her as a Protestant martyr or a complete victim or a schemer, you know, with some nefarious aims. How would you characterize her? Probably a combination of those things.

I'm not 100% convinced that she was gunning for the throne from the start. And that's why she held Henry at Bay. I think she probably wasn't at all sure about what she was getting into. I think what she was sure about was not just wanting to be a mistress because she'd seen how quickly Henry discarded those. Her own sister Mary had been one of them. So she was holding out for something more, but I don't really buy into the idea that she was scheming from the start

to kind of ensnare Henry so that he would make her his queen. I think perhaps that idea was, more to do with her family and her ambitious father and brother. But for Anne, I think she's more of an enigma. And that's only increased by the fact that we have all of Henry's love letters to her, but none of Anne's replies to him. So what was Anne feeling? I think whether, you know, you do believe that she was scheming for the throne,

she was a very skilled political operator. She was, I believe, a genuine religious reformer. She had ideas that she really wanted to put into effect on social reform as well as religious reform. So she was so far ahead of her time. And I think she's really to be admired for that. How much agency do you ascribe to Anne as opposed to the powerful men in her life, her father, brother, uncle? I think she had an unusual degree of agency. And I think a comparison would be useful here with another of the six wives, Catherine Howard,

who was also like Anne accused and condemned for adultery. And in Catherine's case, I think she was guilty. But then I think we've reappraised Catherine in recent years, rightly so, because how much agency did she have in any of those relationships with the men in her life? Her music tutor, she was just 13 when some kind of relationship. happened there. So I think Catherine didn't have a great deal of power over her own destiny. But I think Anne much more so from her early years she was described as being very toward or very clever and opinionated. And yeah, she she had big ideas and the vision to carry them through. And she made

Henry the eighth sit up and listen. And if she can do that, then she's got a lot of agency, I think. Do you believe then that she was sort of innocent of the adultery charges presented against her? A hundred percent. I think if you look at the various charges, Anne wasn't even in the same place as her accused lovers on nearly all of them. And it just doesn't fit with what we know of Anne Boleyn. Here is not a woman who is lacking in self-control. She's held Henry at Bay for seven years. And it just doesn't add. up to me. I think her only crime, if you can call it that, is not giving Henry a son. If she had, there's no way he would have executed her or had the marriage and old. She would have been protected for life. It's such, it's one of those things where history could have veered so,

so, so much based on just that one little actant of genetics. It could. And of course, the irony is, as we've been discussing, she has all of this sort of age. and she's got this great brain. But ultimately, she's judged by her body and her body's failure to produce that male heir. And really, in Henry's eyes, nothing else matters. Well, speaking of heirs, the one child she does provide is Elizabeth, who, of course, Henry could have had no knowledge

would have reigned in one of the most brilliant periods for English history. What was your thought process in doing this dual biography? when Elizabeth never met her mother. Yeah. Well, I mean, Elizabeth was only in Anne's life or the other way around, actually, for two years and eight months. So it was a very brief relationship.

And actually, at the age of three months only, Elizabeth was removed from Anne and according to royal tradition set up in her own household. And even though Anne visited when she could, those occasions were rare because the pressure was on her to, of course, have a son. So she was kept at court a lot of the time. But it wasn't a case of out of sight, out of mind.

Anne sent regular gifts to Elizabeth. I think she inspired Elizabeth's later love of fashion because she was always sending these gorgeous, made-to-measure dresses and velvet caps. But the influence of Anne on Elizabeth was much more profound than that. And I think Elizabeth was every bit, if not more so, as intelligent as her mother.

She grew up curious about her, clearly, and she grew up to be fascinated by Anne Berlin. And the more she found out, I think the more Elizabeth got a sense that Anne had been ill-served by her father's justice, if you can even call it that. I love that quote by Anne on the scaffold when she said, you know,

I require any person if they should meddle in my cause, that they shall judge the best or words to that effect. And I think really Elizabeth spent her life meddling in her mother's cause. And she did judge the best. She came to the right conclusion that her mother had been terribly, terribly wronged. And that was a wrong that Elizabeth wanted to put right. So she was her mother's daughter through and through. One thing that you can connect the lines between Elizabeth and her mother

are the ability that Elizabeth had throughout her life, even though she famously never married, that she continued to entertain suitors to her advantage. She did. Do you draw that line from her to her mother? I do, absolutely. And that's something I really explore in the book, in that both mother and daughter

played the game of courtly love. And they were both great flirts, actually. They loved male company, and they love to keep themselves just out of reach. But Elizabeth had learned from her mother's example and she'd learned that she needed to keep the boundaries very strict indeed and allow no room for doubt there might be gossip but it had to be unfounded gossip so elizabeth was very strict in upholding the etiquette and the morality of her court it's no accident that elizabeth's court

was described as being at once both gay decent and superb and not and that And that word decent was quite deliberate. She might be this great flirt like her mother, but she knew very well what had happened to her mother and she was going to draw those boundaries very, very clearly. So I do believe Elizabeth lived and died, the Virgin Queen. As, you know, several historians, I think also like to speculate about her relationship with her favorite Lord Darnley,

not Lord Jesus, Dudley, pardon me, haven't had my coffee in that. I know. Easily done. But I think I'm with you that it would be too much of a risk for too high a position. And I think a really telling piece of evidence came in 1662. So Elizabeth had been queen for four years. When she almost died, she contracted smallpox, one of the most dangerous diseases of the age. And she was at Hampton Court where I work. This is not just so that I can name drop working Hampton Court, this little story. But she believed she was on her deathbed and she summoned her confessor, her sort of priest. And she avowed that nothing had ever passed between her and Robert Dudley.

And, you know, cynical listeners might say, yeah, yeah, it's easy to say those things. Not in this God-fearing age where you wouldn't tell a lie on your deathbed because you would think you were going to hell for eternity. So, you know, I do believe Elizabeth spoke the truth. Also, you know, as she said, I will have but one mistress here and no master. She had fought for that throne. She had seen her mother's example. You can't blame her for just not going there, really. And I also don't blame her childbirth was a very scary prospect at that time.

Even the thought of an accident or even a pregnancy in marriage was still a risk. Oh, my goodness. I mean, I would not have wanted to have gone there. myself, it must have been terrifying. And there's no wonder there were all these weird and wonderful rituals around childbirth, all these superstitious kind of practices, because people were just clutching at straws. What's going to help me, you know, when it comes to giving birth? And Elizabeth was surrounded by these fairly negative examples. You know, she would have learned about her mother's miscarriages for a start. And then Jane Seymour, she died shortly

after giving birth to Elizabeth's baby brother. Her sister Mary had the phantom pregnancies. And then, you know, the list goes on and on. There were many ill-fated pregnancies and births in Elizabeth's life. So I think genuinely she was terrified at the prospect of giving birth. And she once became quite hysterical when pushed on the matter of her marriage. So it ran deep. It was more than just politics.

her decision not to marry. Absolutely. You mentioned Elizabeth's love of fashion coming from Anne. How else do you think Anne influenced Elizabeth from beyond the grave? So I think one of the biggest ways was in religion. So Anne was, as I mentioned, a genuine reformer. This is a woman who took risks for her faith. She was secretly importing banned religious texts before she became queen.

And she knew that she could get a... arrested for heresy, but she really believed that the church needed to be reformed. Now, she wasn't what we would call a Protestant, or at least not then, because she wanted reform from within. So it wasn't that she wanted to end the Catholic Church. But these reformist ideas would later become Protestantism. And certainly that's the religion that was made official by her daughter Elizabeth. So I think you can trace the line through. of Anne's religious influence on Elizabeth all the way, almost from birth. So Anne appointed her chaplain, Matthew Parker, to visit Elizabeth as an infant and preach

to her, preach sermons to this tiny princess. And Elizabeth made Parker her first Archbishop of Canterbury. So I think that just goes to show the influence that Anne had. Elizabeth, I... What's up, everyone? I'm Ego Wodom. My next guest, you know from Stepbrothers, Anchorman, Saturday Night Live and the Big Money Players Network. It's Will Ferrell.

Woo. Woo! My dad gave me the best advice ever. I went and had lunch with him one day, and I was like, and Dad, I think I want to really give this a shot. I don't know what that means, but I just know the groundlings. I'm working my way up through, and I know it's a place that come look for up and coming talent. He said, if it was based solely on talent, I wouldn't worry about you.

Which is really sweet. Yeah. He goes, but there's so much luck involved. And he's like, just give it a shot. He goes, but if you ever reach a point where you're banging your head against the wall and it doesn't feel fun anymore, it's okay to quit. If you saw it written down, it would not be an inspiration. It would not be on a calendar of, you know, the cat.

Just hang in there. Yeah, it would not be. Right, it wouldn't be that. There's a lot of luck. Listen to Thanks, Dad, on the IHeartRadio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. What's up, everyone? I'm Ego Wadam.

My next guest, you know from Step Brothers Anchorman, Saturday Night Live, and the Big Money Players Network. It's Will Ferrell. Woo. Woo. My dad gave me the best advice ever.

I went and had lunch with them one day, and I was like, and dad, I think I want to really give this a shot. I don't know what that means, but I just know the groundlings. I'm working my way up through, and I know it's a place they come, look for up and coming.

talent. He said, if it was based solely on talent, I wouldn't worry about you, which is really sweet. Yeah. He goes, but there's so much luck involved. And he's like, just give it a shot. He goes, but if you ever reach a point where you're banging your head against the wall and it doesn't feel fun anymore, it's okay to quit. If you saw it written down, it would not be an inspiration. It would not be on a calendar of, you know, the cat, just hang in there. Yeah, it would not be Right, it wouldn't be that. There's a lot of luck. Listen to Thanks, Dad, on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

I think is rightfully celebrated as one of the most famous and celebrated, you know, Queens of England. But what would you say her weaknesses were? I feel like this has become quite a job interview. I know. Let's think of a weakness that can be turned into a strength, you know. Oh, I'm a perfectionist, that kind of thing. I think she probably was. She did have incredible strengths, and I always vote for Elizabeth as our greatest ever

monarch in British history. But I think, you know, it's hard to call it a weakness, but perhaps there was a certain degree of hesitation, procrastination sometimes in Elizabeth. She was quite fearful about making decisions sometimes, but quite often that was the right thing to do. She didn't like to be pushed into decision making. and often things became clearer while she waited. And what she did very cleverly, you see I'm turning it into a positive here, but what she did very cleverly was to play her male courtiers at their own game and say, look, you know, I'm just a woman.

I can't make a decision. You're going to have to wait. And that really brought her time, I think. She wasn't particularly nice to her ladies, some of her ladies. And I think that's another way in which she took after her mother, because Anne Boleyn had been quite cruel to some of her ladies, and in particular to her stepdaughter, the Princess Mary, and Elizabeth could be quite vicious towards her ladies.

You sense a bitterness creeping in as her reign goes on, and Elizabeth has sacrificed her personal desires for her country, and when she sees her ladies not doing the same, I think she does get quite jealous, particularly when they start to go after Elizabeth's own favourites like Robert Dudley or the Earl of Essex then she really doesn't like that. And there's one occasion when Elizabeth actually stabs one of her ladies in the back of the hand with a fork because she hasn't quite got it right when serving Elizabeth at one of her meals.

And I think Elizabeth was in such a fury. So she could be, yeah, she could be very, very vicious, just like Anne. You know, I always find it a little strange because these are such powerful women. Elizabeth in particular, obviously. People sometimes I just think throw the word feminist, which always struck me as a little anachronistic. What do you think? It's so anachronistic.

And Elizabeth herself, even if the term had been around and she'd understood it, she would never have recognized herself as a feminist. Because actually, she, and I think to a lesser extent, Anne, saw herself. as an exception to the rule. It wasn't that she was championing equal rights for women. She believed, you know, that women should have that place of, you know, inferiority in society, but she thought that she was the exception that proved the rule. But when you look at her speeches, she's almost poking fun at her sex and saying,

you know, well, don't compliment me on my ability to speak many languages. You can't, you know, it's no wonder that a woman can talk so much. and she's always coming out with things like this that actually are slightly critical or very critical of the female sex. But she has great confidence in herself and I think the same was true of Anne. You can't really say that either woman

was really trying to change women's lot in society. Probably when we're talking of feminism, somebody who deserves that title more is the 14th century writer Christine DePisa And Anne Boleyn was introduced to Christine's works while she was in France. And Christine is much more about, hey, you know, women are as intelligent as men, if not more. So they deserve equality in society. Neither Anne nor Elizabeth were really saying that, I don't think.

You know, Elizabeth is one of those historical figures. I feel like in the United States, it's like Abraham Lincoln, the figure that's written about constantly. Was there a new story or ask, of Elizabeth's personality that you think people haven't talked enough about? Yeah, well, I think just her whole relationship with her mother has not been explored enough until now. And I'm pleased it hadn't because it gave me the chance to do so. But I think you do see a more tender side to Elizabeth and a more vulnerable side as well.

When you look at her relationship with her mother, on the tender side, she surrounds herself and mementos of her late mother. Quite discreet ones because she knows Anne is still controversial. And probably the most discreet memento is that famous locket ring. It's known as the Chequers Ring because it's named after our Prime Minister's country house, Chequers where the ring is now housed. And it opens up to reveal a portrait of Anne Berlin, almost certainly. And the other portrait is of Elizabeth.

But when it's closed, it just looks like a. ring with Elizabeth's initials on it. So that was quite a private memento. But also there is the vulnerability. And I think Elizabeth, as well as suffering from a terror of childbirth and of marriage, she was also because of that childhood trauma of losing her mother, she was prone to fainting fits and she had lots of stomach complaints. And she was often gripped by an inexhaired explicable dread. And I think her childhood experiences had a lot to do with that. And also the fact that she tended to cling very tightly to those around her. And in particular, the women at court, if they got close to her, they were almost like replacement mother figures. And I think it's

thanks to losing Anne at such a young and quite vulnerable age, really. You can see Elizabeth just being quite intense with her relationships. And I'm thinking of the likes of Blanche Parry, her childhood nurse, and Cat Astley, her governess. They served Elizabeth for the rest of their lives. And Elizabeth kept them so close and was devastated when they died. Because obviously she would have had a very tense relationship with her older half-sister, Mary, as well, even though she did, obviously in the end give her the next in line to the throne, anoint her. But, what was that relationship like, obviously, because Anne had been so cruel to the young, young Mary.

Exactly. So Mary had every reason to despise Elizabeth. And I think it's actually to Mary's credit that she felt sorry for Elizabeth. When Anne had been executed and Henry didn't want to know Elizabeth, Mary is actually speaking up for her younger sister, trying to get her father to look kindly on Elizabeth. And actually, it's not a one-dimensional relationship. You might think these two sisters. are going to hate each other from the start.

They're the daughters of rival mothers. But they don't. And this affection grows up between them. Of course, Mary is much older. So again, she's almost like a maternal figure to her little sister when Elizabeth is growing up. But what sets them on a collision course is religion. Because, of course, Mary is very definitely Catholic and Elizabeth is Protestant.

And when Mary's queen, Elizabeth increasingly is seen as a, a threat, a rival to the throne. And that's when it goes horribly wrong. And that's when Elizabeth has a very disturbing echo of her mother's fate when she finds herself a prisoner in the Tower of London under suspicion of rebelling against her sister Mary. And I was going to say, I love the fact. That's perhaps the wrong phrase, but that, you know, it's a bit of psychological torture. Mary and her counsel, keep Elizabeth in the tower until the 19th of May, 1554. So the 19th of May being the anniversary of Anne's execution. They just want to ramp up the terror a bit and make Elizabeth think you're going to go the same way as your mother.

Yes. Oh my God, I would have been, I would have had a heart attack. It's like you don't even need to execute her. Yeah, she's just there. And Elizabeth, many years later, recalls that. and she recalls her terror still and said that she thought about asking Mary for the sword in the same way as her mother had suffered. So it was going through Elizabeth's mind over and over. I'm going to be executed just like my mother.

She's kept in the same apartments that Anne Boleyn had spent her final days. Could it have been more terrifying for her? It's just extraordinary. And from Mary's perspective, I mean, people hate the other woman who split up your parents' marriage, today. It must have been horrific for young Mary growing up seeing, I mean, she must have hated Anne Boleyn. Oh, she despised Anne Boleyn. Absolutely. And she, you know, you're absolutely right. She had good reason to. And Anne was pretty despicable towards Mary. I think

because Anne felt insecure and she felt Mary was a bit of a threat. She knew that people looked to Mary as the rightful heir to the throne and to her mother, Catherine, as the true queen. So that had a lot to do with Anne's treatment of Mary. And yeah, Mary would never, well, she eventually had to recognize her father's marriage and her own status as illegitimate. But she put up a good fight to avoid that. I want to shift gears slightly. You've written this brilliant book that I absolutely love that I consult constantly called Crown and Scepter, which basically synthesizes for those who haven't read it. You should seek it out. wherever you can find it, the history of every British monarch from William the Conqueror

to Elizabeth B. Second. The fact that you fit it all in and made it a compelling, like, Page Turner really is just extraordinary. But I want to ask, out of all of the monarchs, who do you think is the most underrated? Oh, that is a good question. And you know what? I'm so pleased I wrote that book because I am mainly a Tudor historian. I have written about other periods, but that really introduced me to new characters and new periods. Underrated, I would say, I mean, one of those that I've overlooked a lot is Henry I think I'd have struggled to say anything about Henry the first, but he was the youngest son of William the Conqueror. He was really the father of modern government. He introduced a lot of the kind of institutions

and the systems of modern government. He has the dubious claim of fathering more illegitimate children than any other monarch. So there you go. So Henry the first is one. But I would say probably my top underrated monarch is James II. Now, he was the one. He was the brother of Charles II. He succeeded him. And he only reigned for a very short time. And then the so-called glorious revolution was when basically Parliament invited somebody else to take the throne because they couldn't stand James. And ever since he's been portrayed as this disastrous, tyrannical monarch who was very intolerant, who was going to insist that everybody be a Catholic like him. It was so far from the truth.

Really, it was a tiny minority in Parliament who didn't like having a Catholic monarch, wanted to get rid of him. But otherwise, James was very popular. And he was also very tolerant. He might have been a Catholic, but he believed in freedom of worship for all. Now, I fell into the trap of believing that he was a bad thing and jolly good that we got rid of him. But now I've researched him in more depth. I think poor old James, actually.

And no wonder the Jacobites kept trying to bring back James and his descendants. I think I'd have been one of them. Yeah. My understanding is that they got upset because he married a Catholic woman too. So it's like, we can tolerate one. But if you're having Catholic babies, this is going to be a disaster. Yeah, and then she has a son. It's like, oh, no, we've got a long line of Catholics.

Let's get rid. It's just brilliant how well you're able to cover so much history. And for Noble Blood, for podcast listeners, and do correct me if I'm wrong, Henry the first was the one who lost his son in the White Ship disaster. Correct, correct. So we've covered that on the podcast. So for listeners who want to put that in context, sometimes you get all the Henry's mixed up in your head.

Oh, it's so easily done. The earlier Henry's, I'm a bit shaky on or I was before Crown and Scepter. When we get to Henry the Seventh, I'm okay. You have a position as one of the joint chief curators of historic royal palaces. What does that entail? So, I mean, this is a dream job, really. I can't pretend otherwise because basically the curators are the historians for the palaces. and that we look after six palaces, including the Tower of London and Hampton Court and Kensington Palace.

So these quite iconic London palaces. As chief curators, so Lucy Wesley and I, we manage the team of curators. And our role really is to research the history of the palaces, the people within them, and to communicate that history as well through doing television work or writing content for our website. increasingly we're doing things like podcasts, that kind of thing. So we get to research and talk about history all day long. So it doesn't get much better than that, really, in my opinion. And I want to let you go shortly because I know it's very late in England.

But because you've researched so much of the history of the English monarchy, I'm curious, what would you say today would make a good monarch? because I think the role of a good monarch has shifted over English history, but I would love to know your take on that and what you think would make and continues to make a good monarch. Well, this is going to sound like I asked you to ask me this question because I've just finished this theatre tour in England called How to Be a Good Monarch. That was the whole show.

It was a show to coincide with the coronation, and basically it was me sharing some slightly humorous top tips for current and future monarchs. And I would say there are a number of strategies for success, like you need to put on a good show, you need to be good at managing your PR. But I would say, and this is something that our late queen embodied very much, you can forgive a lot if a monarch does his or her duty.

So if you prove to be very hardworking, to uphold all of your duties, don't overstep the mark in any way, just work hard. And that's something absolutely Elizabeth II did. So I would say duty comes before everything. You can make mistakes. You might not be all that popular. But if you do your duty, people respect you for it.

And you tend to find, you know, the monarchy remains pretty stable if you've got a dutable monarch on the throne. Well, that's wonderful. Tracy Borman, thank you so much for joining us. Listeners, you should pick up a copy of her book, Anne Boleyn and Elizabeth I available now. Truly one of my favorite historians writing today. I can't think of anyone who communicates history so conversationally and excessively,

especially to lay people without multiple graduate degrees. Thank you so much. It's been a pleasure. Thank you. Noble Blood is a production of IHeart Radio and Grim and Mild from Aaron Mank. Noble Blood is created and hosted by me, Dana Schwartz, with additional writing and researching by Hannah Johnston, Hannah Zwick, Mira Hayward, Courtney Sender, and Lori Goodman.

The show is edited and produced by Noami Griffin and Rima Il Kali, with supervising producer Josh Thane, and executive producers Aaron Manke, Alex Williams, and Matt Frederick. For more podcasts from IHeartRadio, visit the IHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. What's up, everyone? I'm Ago Vodam. My next guest, it's Will Ferrell. Woo, woo, woo, woo, woo. My dad gave me the best advice ever. He goes, just give it a shot. But if you ever reach a point where you're banging your head against the wall and it doesn't feel fun anymore, it's okay to quit. If you saw it written down, it would not be an inspiration.

not be on a calendar of, you know, the cat. Just hang in there. Yeah, it would not be. Right. It wouldn't be that. There's a lot of luck. Yeah. Listen to Thanks Dad on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This is an IHeart podcast. Guaranteed human.