Noble Blood - Gilles de Rais, Baron Serial Killer of Legend

Episode Date: October 22, 2024

Gilles de Rais was a powerful, wealthy French baron who fought alongside Joan of Arc. But a castle sale gone-wrong would lead to an investigation, revealing gruesome and salacious details of murder. CW: murder, pedophilia Support Noble Blood: — Bonus episodes, stickers, and scripts on Patreon — Noble Blood merch — Order Dana's book, 'Anatomy: A Love Story' and its sequel 'Immortality: A Love Story'See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an I-heart podcast. Guaranteed Human. What's up, everyone? I'm Ago Vodam. My next guest, it's Will Ferrell. Woo, woo, woo, woo. My dad gave me the best advice ever. He goes, just give it a shot.

But if you ever reach a point where you're banging your head against the wall and it doesn't feel fun anymore, it's okay to quit. If you saw it written down, it would not be an inspiration. It would not be on a calendar of, you know, The cat, just hang in there. Yeah, it would not be. Right, it wouldn't be that. There's a lot of luck.

Listen to Thanks, Dad, on the IHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome to Noble Blood, a production of IHeart Radio and grim and mild from Aaron Manky. Listener discretion advised. Before we begin, just a very, very exciting announcement, I am so thrilled that next July, July 2025, I will be leading a pilgrimage. I will be leading a pilgrimage to the Cotswolds in England to talk about the novel The Remains of the Day by Kazoo Ishiguru, the Nobel Prize winner. First, if you haven't read the novel, it is absolutely one of my favorite books. And I cannot think of a better way to appreciate it than get a great group of people together. Talk about the book.

These pilgrimages are so much fun. We talk about a book. There's writing. You go on walks every day. You get to explore these amazing, time. tiny town, stay at beautiful locations. This is actually the third program I've done with this company. The company is called Common Ground. So yeah, if this interests you, if you think that next summer, you'll want to be in a cozy English town talking about a brilliant book,

working on your own writing and going on walks. You should absolutely sign up. I know there's a few spots left. Register common ground pilgrimages, Remains of the Day, Dana Schwartz. The website is actually reading and walking with.com. I'm going to put it on my Instagram, so take a look if that excites you. I would just love to be there with you. I've had such a good experience doing these pilgrimages, leading these tours. They're just so much fun. It's my favorite thing to do to talk about literature, to work on writing, to go on beautiful walks. I just, I can't think of a better way to spend a few days in the summer. So if this interests you, there are still spots available for the remains of the day pilgrimage in the Cotswolds. Before we begin today's episode, one brief

content note, this episode mentions references to the murder of children. So if that is especially disturbing for you, obviously it's disturbing for everyone, but if that's an issue that requires more sensitivity for you, this might be an episode to skip. Mud and wet garbage squashed beneath people's feet as everyone wandered slowly through the town of Nant in France. It had rained all night, but luckily the rain had stopped in time for the day's planned executions. It was October 27th, 1440, and three convicted men had been sentenced to death just the day before. No one, not even the convicts themselves, wished to delay their inevitable fifth. And so the general public of Nant all processed toward the scaffolds.

With all of the, quote, ritual, pomp, and music that characterized the procession, it would have been hard to miss the parade, and before long, the number of people in the group multiplied. And despite the heinous crimes supposedly committed by these men, the townspeople walking to the scaffold actually started praying for the leader of the criminals, praying for Gilles de Reyes and his salvation. Jil, a baron in the region, listened intently to those prayers.

He was an intensely religious man, and his salvation was the most important thing to him. He was only able to calmly accept the noose because he knew that he had been absolved, and salvation would be possible. After all, he had done everything the courts had asked of him. He had confessed to the crimes and made his confession as lurid as he could. He even begged forgiveness from the victim's families.

In response, the Catholic Church had assured him that his confession lifted the ban of excommunication that had been placed on him. Execution would send him to heaven, not hell, they said, and even though his reputation on earth was tarnished beyond repair, Jil knew that God knew the truth. After walking for two hours, the swollen crowd reached the sight of execution. Jil was ushered to stand alongside his two servants and alleged partners in crime, and he had the noose placed around his neck. Looking out at the crowd that had come to watch him hang,

he would have seen familiar faces. He would have seen people who had staffed his homes, who had acted in his pageants and plays, and fought under his banner, people he had known, and who had gone on to call for his conviction and his death. Jill closed his eyes as he felt the rope around his neck tighten. The calls of prayer and the juxtaposing shouts of excitement

for his death, faded away as Gilles turned his mind only toward heaven and his eternal reward. With a swift pull, the world went black, and Gilles-Duray, the man, died. In that same moment, Gilles-Duray, the legend, was born. This man's story might not sound familiar to you. It probably just sounds like a generic tale of medieval execution. But if you've read any particularly gruesome internet listicles, maybe in honor of Halloween and spooky season, talking about history's scariest figures, you might have encountered Gilles de Rays's name. His story has been misrepresented, knowingly or unknowingly, by historians across multiple centuries. And in this episode, I want to try to talk about what might have really happened.

This man, Gilles, has been labeled for centuries as one of the most prolific and sadistic serial killers in history. But it's time we take a closer look and ask a simple question. Was he even guilty? I'm Dana Schwartz, and this is Noble Blood. Over the past five, wow, years here at Noble Blood, we've covered many. notorious historical figures, including one Elizabeth Bathory. Across the internet, you will find no shortage of salacious descriptions of Elizabeth Bathory as a ruthless serial killer who would bathe in her young victim's blood in order to try to remain youthful. But as covered in our episode,

the Blood Countess, the bathing in blood was a complete fabrication. And it's even possible that Elizabeth Bathory was entirely framed by political opponents threatened by her power. Elizabeth's story and the way it became infamous is not too dissimilar from the story of the subject of this episode, Gilles de Re. As I mentioned in the introduction, he's touted across the web as a brutal serial killer and pedophile who violated over 140 children in medieval France. It's an astonishing and gruesome claim, and it's easy to understand why it attracts so much salacious attention. But in the interest of diving a little deeper, let's go now to Northwestern France in the 1400s to examine who Gilles-Durray actually was and what the

circumstances were that led to his long legacy of infamy. Gilles de Rays was born in 1404 to parents who both descended from great feudal houses. So Gilles was set up well from birth with connections to powerful and wealthy lineages. In fact, the barony that he possessed was reputed to be one of the six oldest baronies in the Duchy of Brittany at the time. By the time Gilles came of age, through inheritance and marriage, he controlled a wide swath of land across western France and Brittany. In essence, Gilles was somebody important in the world of feudal lords. Gilles was born right in the middle of the Hundred Years' War, and given that his job as a baron was literally to raise men and fight, an important portion of his life, especially early on, was dominated by that long-lasting conflict.

Even though we've covered various aspects of the Hundred Years' War here on Noble Blood, I think we would all benefit from a brief, brief summary of the very complicated conflict. In short, between 1337 and 1453, England and France were engaged in an enduring battle over who actually ruled France. The war was a defining period for both the English and the French, who each found people and battles to rally behind and identify with. For the English, think of the Battle of Agincourt in King Henry VIII. For the French, one name probably stands above the rest,

at least in terms of the modern popular imagination, Joan of Arc. Joan of Arc, a teenage peasant girl who said that she was given divine guidance from archangels to help save the French from English domination, helped lead the French army to victory in the siege of Orleans in 1429. Now, this is where our protagonist, Gilles de Rey, factors in. Gilles fought at the siege of Orleans and then took part in the Loire campaign with Joan. of Arc after her victory. It was Gilles' participation in that campaign that led to some of his newly elevated status at court,

including a new official role, carrier of the holy water in the coronation of Charles the 7th. Another component that contributed to Gilles' status as an important feudal lord was, surprise, surprise, great wealth. Controlling so much, land afforded Gilles a not insubstantial income, and through smart maneuvering and the help of his

grandfather, Gilles was able to grow his coffers. The biggest move he made was a strategic marriage, which allowed him to add substantially to his holdings. With the holdings that he inherited, as well as those he acquired through marriage, Gilles was arguably one of the wealthiest barons in France. and Gilles was not afraid to spend that fortune. He was known for living lavishly, having extravagant taste and spending wildly. He kept a large entourage wherever he went, which included, because Gilles was a particular fan of the performing arts, a herald, choir, and several portable organs. When he would set up camp in one place or another, he would often sponsor play. for the local community.

The most famous of these plays was the Siege of Orleans, which he put on in the city of Orleans on the sixth anniversary of the battle. More than 500 actors took part in the play, including Gilles himself, which depicted and celebrated the defeat of the English by Gilles' comrade-in-arms, Joan of Arc. In addition to paying all of these actors,

Gilles supplied a never-ending buffet of food and wine to both the actors and play spectators. While he clearly liked to glorify his own past military triumphs, Gilles also just certainly liked to engage in opulent displays of wealth, and it would turn out to be his overspending and his debts that would one day get him into trouble. By 1429, Gilles d'Ere was a Marshal of France. He had achieved a great measure of status and money

and could retire to his various estates to spend his days, putting on plays or finding other ways to spend his fortune. And if that's all he had done, this episode would end here. But as you probably know, we've only just begun. As I alluded to, Gilles-Durray had a habit of overhaul. overspending, and at a certain point he started selling off properties to pay off his debts. In 1440, he decided to sell the castle of Saint-Atyne de Mermort in Brittany. The nobleman who bought the castle entrusted the keys to his brother a priest.

Seems like a normal real estate transaction so far. Except, Gilles decided that he actually wanted the castle back so that he, he could sell it to his cousin. So, on a Sunday in early May 1440, Gilles and a retinue of 60 horsemen stormed into the parish church where the key-holding priests was leading mass, and he threatened to kill the priest

if he did not surrender the castle to him. The vigilante group led by Gilles dragged the priest to the castle gates and forced him. to open the gates for them. Once the priest opened the gates and allowed them to take the castle, they chained the priest up in the dungeon and beat him. Now, this assault was a pretty brazen act, but local authorities might have overlooked it given Gilles's status. However, he and his gang had accosted a priest, and doing so violated ecclesiastical immunity, which should have protected

the priest from that exact sort of thing from happening. Therefore, the church had grounds to bring Gilles to court. Now, ecclesiastical courts, as well as the local courts or parliaments, operated on the inquisitorial system at the time, where the judges were active fact-seekers as opposed to impartial referees. So when the church did indeed decide to charge Gilles, they began an investigation into him. Bishop Jean de Mastroix set off on that investigation,

beginning in the parish of Notre Dame, which was home to Gilles' main residence. The bishop spoke with a multitude of people in the region during the investigation, and in doing so, he discovered that there were a number of missing children who were almost all rumored, to have been kidnapped, sexually assaulted, and killed by Gilles. Parents and acquaintances of these missing children

supposedly spoke to the bishop and confirmed these rumors had been swirling about for some time now. While local townspeople were willing to accuse Gilles, they weren't necessarily willing to testify in court. The bishop was able to overcome that issue once he found former servants of Gilles who would testify in court that he had indeed murdered hundreds of children. The servants claimed that Gilles forced them to help him murder and then dispose of the bodies in a myriad of ways. Whether these servants were compelled to testify against their former employer because of a sense of justice for the murdered,

or because of the threat of torture by the bishop, we can't know for sure. During his investigation, the bishop also found a magician, whom Gilles had allegedly employed and who would testify that he had helped Gilles participate in alchemy and seances, summoning a demon. While unrelated to the murders, using alchemy definitely made Gilles look all the more guilty. If he was willing to transgress against God in one way, he probably transgressed in others. With sufficient witnesses now at the ready, the bishop brought charges against Gilles for not only the kidnapping and abuse of a priest, but also, quote, witchcraft, sexual misconduct, and homicide.

On September 13, 1440, the trial of Gilles d'Herre began. Actually, the two trials of Gilles began. While the church had begun the investigation, the civil courts had also elected to charge him with murder and kidnapping. So once he was charged by both courts, the trials proceeded simultaneously as if they were just one case. From the moment the case began, Gilles went on the offensive. He attacked the judges, calling them simoniacs, an insult, back then, and questioning their right to try him. The courts did not take kindly to those insults, and the church promptly excommunicated Jail. Two days later, Jail returned to court

and made a complete 180-degree turn. Now he was entirely repentant and apologetic. He accepted the charges, but because he had not yet confessed, the case proceeded. The bulk of the trial was hearing testimony. All of the testimony provided was from former servants of Gilles that the bishop had identified in his investigation. Over the next several days in court, these former servants, some of whom were charged as accomplices, detailed Gilles' sins, attempted deals with demons to avoid prosecution for financial woes, making servants procure victims by kidnapping young children from poor families, and finding sexual gratification from torturing and killing these children.

I won't go into further detail about the sexual details of the crimes and murders, because that seems gratuitous and unnecessary. But that's what the testimony laid bare. While the Court is inconsistent with the numbers, historians agree that Jil was ultimately accused of killing more than 140 children in the span of only a couple of years. Finally, it came time in the case for the court to torture Jil in order to draw out his much-desired confession. But Jil stepped forward and proclaimed that he would give his testimony the unvarnished truth willingly. And so he was saved from the type of torture that he was accused of enacting

on hundreds of children. After providing his testimony and confession in the privacy of the court, Gilles staged a rather over-the-top public confession in the vernacular so that any and everyone could hear and understand it. On October 22nd, Gilles held nothing back. and he told the world that what he had done would be enough to convict 10,000 men. He agreed that everything people had testified against him was true, and that he derived pleasure from all of the sins he committed. He finished by asking God and the parents of the murdered children to forgive him. His unequivocal confession must have stunned the audience.

I doubt anyone expected someone to openly admit to such depravity. As soon as Gilles de Rates confessed, his trial concluded, and, interestingly, his excommunication was rescinded. That's important, so we'll be talking a little more about that later. Gilles and his two accomplices, the two who had actually testified against him, were sentenced to be hanged and then burned at the stake. As I explored in the opening of this episode, the criminals were paraded through Nant to their hanging on October 26th, less than two weeks after the trial had begun. With his death, Gilles-Durais's name went down in infamy. Historians proclaimed him to be a violent rapist and sadistic murderer, the likes of who could be compared to Jeffrey Dahmer. And his depravity is that much more fascinating when juxtaposed with his more youthful days spent fighting alongside France's literal patron saint, Joan of Arc.

No wonder, Gilles invites such fascination and regularly appears on lists of the worst serial killers in history. But what if I told you, Gilles de Rees was possibly innocent? Gilles'erais' legacy is still hotly debated, but some historians have argued that he was framed by the church and guilty of no wrongdoings at all. In fact, after a French book published in 1992 proclaimed Gilles' innocence, a retrial was called, and the Court of Cassation, the highest Court of Appeals in France, exonerated him. So officially, Gilles has been cleared of all charges, although scholars called into question the accuracy and research that was used in that symbolic proceeding. In addition to the lawyers at the retrial, scholars like Thomas A. Fouge and Margot K. Joubi have pointed out a number of issues with the original case against Gilles, as well as challenges to the historical scholarship surrounding the French noble that have been accepted. accepted as fact. The biggest flaw in the original trial was that there was no physical evidence against Gilles. His main crime was killing hundreds of children, but there were no bodies,

skeletons, or bones found that pointed toward Gilles as a killer. All of the evidence leveled against him was circumstantial, entirely testimony from people that couldn't be corroborated. So no one even had proof that the missing children were actually dead. Now, it's true that Gilles himself did confess to his crimes and was quite explicit about the extremely brutal acts he committed and the pleasure he allegedly derived from them. So even if there were no bodies found, we could believe that Gilles-Durray was a murderer because he admitted it.

However, Thomas A. Foujay may be able to be a murderer. the argument that we should be at least a little skeptical of that confession. By all accounts, Gilles was an incredibly religious man. Remember how I mentioned earlier that Gilles spent his money with no sense of limit? Well, as part of his expression of his faith, he bankrolled a private chapel, as well as that chapel's own dean, vicar, choir, school of music, archdeacons, curates, treasurer, chapter, and a schoolmaster. Beyond paying for this expensive display of piety, he regularly attended church and showed a devotion to the cult of holy innocence. So Fouge hypothesizes that after Gilles was

excommunicated early in the trial, he began to negotiate. He was confronted with the fact that he could very well be found guilty, and if he were killed at that point, He would no longer go to heaven. In order to save his soul in the two days after his excommunication, Gilles agreed to confess if the church would vacate his excommunication. The church followed through on that promise, and after Gilles was found guilty, they rescinded his excommunication. And Gilles could once again be assured of his entrance to heaven.

Fouge further argues that Gilles' confession to the public was so gratuitous because he was trying to make it seem unbelievable. He made such an incredible confession that no one should believe it, therefore saving his reputation, at least in theory. Unfortunately, we can't know if the townspeople at the time would have interpreted his confession that way. And if that was Jeal's plan, it backfired spectacularly, given that we've accepted the truth of his confession for hundreds of years.

The final reason why some historians now believe in Gilles' possible innocence is that the historical record has misrepresented his court case. Margot K. Joubi biographer of Jil found multiple accusations, like the murder of the three children of Gilles' valid, that don't exist in the original court transcript. historians have used examples like that for evidence when in reality a lot of Gilles' narrative has become something of a historical game of telephone. So was he innocent? Were the crimes at least possibly exaggerated? All of that raises the question of why? Why would Gilles de Reyes be framed? There's no conclusive answer, but people have hypothesized. a couple of different reasons.

First, people love a salacious story, which means that it only makes sense that over the centuries, the details of Gilles de Ré's case would become bigger, more exaggerated, and more lurid. Aside from that, recall that fewer than ten years before Giles' trial, his comrade in arms, Jeanne Varc, was similarly found guilty of and executed on charges of heresy. Some scholars have wondered if his association with the future saint might have contributed to his downfall. Others have dismissed that idea, instead pointing to more selfish reasons. Gilles-Durray was a wealthy man, and if he was found guilty of such a terrible crime, his lands would not be passed to his heirs, but would instead be forfeited.

And who stood to benefit from that guilt? the very officials who charged him. But none of that can be proven, at least not with the historical records currently known to us. So unfortunately, we have to accept that we may never know the exact machinations that took down one of the wealthiest lords in medieval France. The historians who claim that Gilles-Durray was indeed guilty of those heinous crimes aren't purposefully obscuring the past.

If you looked strictly at what survived in the written record, it is extremely easy to come to that conclusion. But history is complicated and who knows what evidence might have been lost to the centuries. As to the true fate of Gilles D'eret's soul, God only knows. Keep listening after a brief sponsor break to hear about the colorful literary figure that Gilles de Rays might have inspired. What's up, everyone? I'm Ago Wodom. My next guest, you know from Step Brothers Anchorman, Saturday Night Live, and the Big Money Players Network. It's Will Ferrell. My dad gave me the best advice ever. I went and had lunch with them one day, and I was like, and Dad, I think I want to really give this a shot. I don't know what that means, but I just know the groundlings. I'm working my way up through, and I know it's a place that come look for up-and-coming talent. He said, if it was based solely on, I don't know what that means. I don't know what that means. He said, if it was based solely on. on talent, I wouldn't worry about you, which is really sweet. Yeah.

He goes, but there's so much luck involved. And he's like, just give it a shot. He goes, but if you ever reach a point where you're banging your head against the wall and it doesn't feel fun anymore, it's okay to quit. If you saw it written down, it would not be an inspiration. It would not be on a calendar of, you know, the cat. Just hang in there. Yeah, it would not be.

Right, it wouldn't be that. There's a lot in luck. Listen to Thanks, Dad, on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. What's up, everyone? I'm Ago Wodom. My next guest, you know from Step Brothers Anchorman, Saturday Night Live, and the Big Money Players Network. It's Will Ferrell. My dad gave me the best advice ever.

I went and had lunch with them one day, and I was like, and Dad, I think I want to really give this a shot. I don't know what that means, but I just know the groundlings. I'm working my way up through, and I know it's a place that come look for up and coming talent. He said, if it was based solely on talent, I wouldn't worry about you, which is really sweet. Yeah. He goes, but there's so much luck involved. And he's like, just give it a shot. He goes, but if you ever reach a point where you're banging your head against the wall and it doesn't feel fun anymore, it's okay to quit.

If you saw it written down, it would not be an inspiration. It would not be on a calendar. of, you know, the cat just hang in there. Yeah, it would not be. Right, it wouldn't be that. There's a lot of luck. Listen to Thanks, Dad, on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Considering Gilles Gilles-de-Rais's famous and salacious story, it's not surprising that he might have inspired a famous literary character, Bluebeard.

Bluebeard isn't the most popular fairy tale story, so if you have to have. haven't heard of him, Bluebeard is a character from a French folk tale that follows this general storyline. Bluebeard is a wealthy man who murdered his wives, and even when a wife found out the sad fate of her six predecessors, she was doomed to die just like they did. However, his last wife is actually able to thwart Bluebeard, and after discovering the gruesome remains of his previous wives in the dungeon, she's read. rescued by her family. They kill Bluebeard, she inherits the castle, and lays to rest his murdered wives. Although Gilles de Reyes never murdered his wife, the French baron is largely attributed as the inspiration for the myth.

The tale of Bluebeard itself has been referenced in or inspired a multitude of literary, theatrical, and amusement park creations. The king of tragedy himself, Shakespeare, quoted the English version of the tale, titled Mr. Fox, in the play Much Adieu About Nothing. Benedict exclaims, like the old tale, my lord, it is not so nor twas not so, but indeed, God forbid, it should be so. The old tale here is Mr. Fox, aka Bluebeard. A rather small reference, but I would be remiss not to call out Shakespeare's connection to this episode's subject. Another famous English author used Bluebeard as inspiration for a short story. Published in 1860, Charles Dickens' Captain Murderer told of a relative of Bluebeard, who took Bluebeard's brutality to the next extreme, cannibalism.

Bluebeard has also received the Hollywood. treatment, with the basic elements of the story, inspiring a number of films from gaslight to Ex Machina. My favorite Bluebeard reference, though, can be found not in literature or film, but in Orlando, Florida. At the exit of Disney World's Haunted Mansion Ride, visitors can see Bluebeard's tombstone, which also includes the names of his six wives he killed, and the seventh one, one who killed him.

Interestingly, the date of death on Bluebeard's Disney World Tombstone is 1440, the same year that Gilles de Rey was executed. Noble Blood is a production of IHeart Radio and Grimmin-Mild from Aaron Menke. Noble Blood is hosted by me, Danish Schwartz, with additional writing and researching by Hannah Johnston, Hannah Zwick, Courtney Sender, Julia Melani and Armand Kasam. The show is edited and produced by Noemi Griffin and Rima Il K. Ali with supervising producer Josh Thane and executive producers Aaron Menke, Alex Williams, and Matt Frederick. For more podcasts from IHeartRadio, visit the IHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.

What's up, everyone? I'm Ago Vodom. My next guest, it's Will Ferrell. Woo-woo. My dad gave me the best advice ever. He goes, just give it a shot. But if you ever reach a point where you're banging your head against the wall and it doesn't feel fun anymore, it's okay to quit. If you saw it written down, it would not be an inspiration. It would not be on a calendar of, you know, the cat. Just hang in there. Yeah, it would not be. Right, it wouldn't be that. There's a lot of luck. Yeah. Listen to Thanks, Dad, on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This is an IHeart podcast, guaranteed human.