Noble Blood - Gloria Morgan Vanderbilt Among the Royals (with History On Trial's Mira Hayward)

Episode Date: July 23, 2024

In the 1930s, America was captivated by a scandalous courtroom drama - a custody battle of little 10-year-old Gloria Vanderbilt (mother of Anderson Cooper). Gloria's mother, Gloria Morgan Vanderbilt, was accused of improperly managing her daughter's trust and galivating around Europe when she should have been parenting. The trial was already a media circus -- and that was before the British Royal family got involved. For more on this trial and other fascinating trials in American history, listen to HISTORY ON TRIAL from Mira Hayward. Support Noble Blood: — Bonus episodes, stickers, and scripts on Patreon — Noble Blood merch — Order Dana's book, 'Anatomy: A Love Story' and its sequel 'Immortality: A Love Story'See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an I-heart podcast. Guaranteed Human. Will Ferrell's Big Money Players and IHart Podcast presents soccer moms. So I'm Leanne. Yeah. This is my best friend, Janet. Hey. And we have been joined at the hips since high school.

Absolutely. A redacted amount of years later, we're still joined at the hip. Just a little bit bigger hips. This is a podcast. We're recording it as we tailgate our youth soccer games in the back of my Honda Odyssey. With all the snacks and drinks. Why did you get hard seltzer instead of beer? They hit a bogo. Well, then you got it. Listen to soccer moms on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome to Noble Blood, a production of IHeart Radio and grim and mild from Aaron Manky. Listener discretion advised. I am so thrilled to be here doing a very special episode of Noble Blood. It's really a crossover episode with Mira Hayward, who was a former writer, researcher on Noble Blood and went off to start her own podcast, which is absolutely

brilliant. If you haven't listened to it yet, it's called History on Trial. And it explores in-depth specific trials in American history that define really, I was going to say the legal system, but so much more. It just defines an aspect of American history. I feel like I learned something new every episode about the foundations of this country. Thank you so much, Dana. It's so fun to be back here at Noble Blood, where I feel like I got my start in podcasting back in my Franz Ferdinandes. And I feel the same way about, I'm sure you feel this about doing Noble Blood, but it's really cool to have a job where you get to learn stuff all of the time. Absolutely.

And I'm excited to learn something today. We're going to be talking about a very, very scandalous trial involving American royalty, the Vanderbilt. But there's also a connection to the British royal family. Do you want to give us an overview of the case? Yeah. So this case is a 1934 custody battle over a 10304. 10-year-old child named Gloria Vanderbilt, who's actually Anderson Cooper's mother, News Royalty. It's between her mother, Gloria Morgan Vanderbilt, who's in her late 20s and is like beautiful

society woman, and her paternal aunt, Gertrude Vanderbilt Whitney, who's one of the most wealthy women in America. She's in her late 50s, patron of the arts, founder of the Whitney Museum of American Art. And this case is so scandalous and so shocking for the public. It's the midst of the Great Depression. People are loving, seeing that rich people are having a hard time, too. But interestingly, one of the things I learned while researching this case was how much royal involvement there was, particularly from the British royal family. Well, let's start there. Let's start with Gloria Morgan Vanderbilt, who's the mother of the child that will eventually be at the center of this custody case. What is Gloria Morgan Vanderbilt's connection to the British royal family? So Gloria Morgan Vanderbilt has an identical twin who's named Telma. And when Telma and Gloria come out into society in the early 1920s in New York, people call them the magnificent Morgan's. They're extremely beautiful. They're identical twins. They have these cute little accents from growing up all over Europe. They're super beautiful and glamorous. And Telma, after sort of a disastrous first marriage to an American, gets married to this extremely wealthy English Viscount who is named Marmaduke Furness. which is an all-time British name. An amazing name.

So this marriage, unfortunately, not super happy, lots of affairs on both sides. And in 1929, Telma meets Edward, the Prince of Wales. And she and Edward start an affair that lasts for five years. And it's pretty serious during that time. They're basically living as a couple. And is this the Edward Prince of Wales, who will eventually become king and abdicate his throne for Wallace Simpson? Yes, exactly.

And there's actually an amazing Wallace Simpson connection here. So Edward, we just know already, has a weakness for it seems like married socialites. Yes, it's actually hilarious. The press starts to have some questions about how much time Telma and Edward are spending together. So Gloria sort of helps facilitate this affair by getting a country estate that's right next to Edwards so that Telma and Edward can spend a lot of time together. And the press is like, he's always seen with the glamorous lady Furness. And the prince issues the statement where he's like, I only hang out with married women because it's more respectable that way. And the press is like, okay, gotcha. Oh, of course. Much more respectable. Yeah. And so is Gloria Morgan also involved with, you know, the sort of English court life with her sister? Yes, very involved. She actually gets presented at court to King George and Queen Mary at one point in the early 30s. She's hanging out with sort of this whole set that's involved, sort of these glamorous young British nobles centered around the prince of. of Wales. Actually, it's a little bit crazy. So Telma and the prince are involved. And so the prince also

meets little Gloria, the child at the heart of the custody battle. There's lots of pictures of them together when she was a child because he was sort of her de facto uncle for a little bit. It's actually through the Morgan sisters. So Gloria and Telma have an older sister named Consuelo that Edward meets Wallace Simpson because Consuelo is friends with Wallace. And she tells Gloria and Telma, I've had this amazing friend, you're going to love her, you'll get along so well. Her name is Wallace. They meet. They love her. And Telma says, oh my gosh, Edward, you would love this woman. And it's actually in 1934 that Telma goes to America to help her sister Gloria with this custody trial. Things are really ramping up. And before she leave, she has dinner with Wallace. And Wallace, who calls Edward Little Man, which I guess is endearing, says, you know, the little man is going to be so lonely while you're gone. And Telma says, well, look after him for me, won't you? famous last words.

So really the casualty of this trial is because Telma had to leave. It pushed Wallace Simpson and Edward right into each other's arms. Yes, exactly. In 1937, Telma is asked if she regrets and if she could do her life over again. What would she do differently? And she says, I would never introduce Wallace to the Prince of Wales. So that's the Prince of Wales's involvement. There's one other British royal who I want to talk about, who is also involved in this

and that is the Martianess of Milford Haven. Before we get to the marchioness, can we sort of set the scene for the trial? Yes. So why is this custody trial even happening at all? Obviously, Gloria Morgan married a Vanderbilt. Good for her. And what is happening that's causing this trial? Yeah, it's really interesting.

I think it's a classic case of a trial that didn't need to happen. And perhaps because of the money and power involved, these people don't know how to talk to each other in ways that a normal family might, and so it escalates into this custody battle. Basically, Gloria married a man named Reggie Vanderbilt. Wealth was not good for Reggie. He gambled his entire fortune away, basically, almost a billion dollars in 14 years. And then he dies a year after they have their first child, Little Gloria. And so Gloria and the other Gloria, because like European royalty, they have a habit of naming all of their children the same things, live off of a trust that Little Gloria inherits.

but that trust is really highly regulated by administrators. And there are questions amongst other members of the Vanderbilt family if the elder Gloria is using that money responsibly. And there are accusations that she is living this sort of partying lifestyle that is not good for the child. And little Gloria starts to sort of have these hysterical episodes where she says that she's afraid of her mother. Her paternal aunt, Gertrude Whitney, gets involved.

She's Gloria's godmother. There's so much to the story and so many sort of complicated women with the different motives. Little Gloria's grandmother, Laura, thinks that she shouldn't be in her mother's custody. So eventually, Little Gloria goes to live with Gertrude Whitney, and then Gertrude Whitney won't really give her back to the elder Gloria. Got it. So it's this complicated situation where both the mom and daughter are living off this wealthy trust. And now the late husband's family is trying to, I'm putting this in air quote, but quote unquote, protect. the little daughter. Yes, exactly. Nobody, of course, asks what the little daughter wants at any point in this,

but yeah, that's exactly what's happening. So, okay, let's go back now to this Marchioness. How is she involved? Yes. So this is a woman named Nadejda, Mountbatten. She comes from a wealthy Russian royal family, and she marries Prince George of Battenberg, who is British royalty. That Battenberg gets chains to Mountbatten after World War I, because of Anne. anti-Derman sentiment, same as the Sachs, Coburg, Gotha, Windsor, Transition. The Martianess, who's known as Nata by her friends, which is very cute, is super wealthy, super beautiful. There's this quote from Little Gloria in her autobiography where she's remembering Nata when

she's a child, and she says she has masses of maple sugar hair and light followed her wherever she walked. And I was like, oh my gosh, I want to meet her. She sounds amazing. Yeah, like the most glamorous woman on earth. And she and Gloria Morgan Vanderbilt are really close. so close that it ends up coming up in the trial. Good to know. Oh, something to look ahead for. Okay, so let's start the trial, October 1934. So the trial begins in the New York State Supreme Court.

And the second witness to testify on Gertrude's side, so on the side that is wanting to take little Gloria out of her mother's custody and put her into her aunt's custody is the elder Gloria's ladies-made, 23-year-old French woman named Maria Kayo. And Gertrude's side has brought Maria on to sort of talk about Gloria's party lifestyle and how she stayed up all night and drank and had wild parties and her friends were doing who knows what. And so she paints this picture that is not particularly pretty. Now that it's a partying mom who's not responsible enough to have this little heiress in her custody. Exactly. And I mean, to go off on a tangent for a little bit, it's pretty ridiculous because the way that Gloria Vanderbilt raises her child is the way that basically all wealthy women at the time we're raising their child. Nannies did most of it and they had their social responsibilities. So Gertrude Whitney was traveling and hanging out with friends just as much as Gloria Vanderbilt was. But in any case, something really scandalous comes up on the cross of Maria Cairo. So she has all these allegations about Gloria and on cross, Gloria. Gloria's lawyer, Nathan Birkin, sort of breaks down Maria's credibility because it's revealed that a lot of the things that she's saying are just assumptions.

So, for example, she said, oh, you know, Gloria was drunk every night. And Nathan Berkin says, well, how did you know that she was drunk? And Maria says, well, she smiled a lot. As most drunk people do, of course. Exactly. Nathan Birken's like, I'm smiling right now. Am I drunk? Berkin sort of breaks down her credibility and it's going well.

But then he goes too far because he feels like, okay, she hasn't actually seen. anything. And so he asks her, well, you actually never saw anything improper, did you? Oh, no. And he goes, well, there was a one thing. He definitely should have stopped there, like, left well enough alone. But he says, oh, what could have been so bad? And so Maria Kayo tells this story where it's, they're in the south of France. She gets Gloria's clothes ready for the day, and she goes into Gloria's bedroom. And she says, when I came, Mrs. Vanderbilt was in bed reading a paper. And there was Lady Milford Haven, Nata, beside the bed with her arm around Mrs. Vanderbilt's neck and kissing her just like a lover. Oh, no.

I know. The crowd, of course, goes crazy. There's like this soap opera moment just to stun silence and then everyone starts yelling and Gloria Vanderbilt collapses. Obviously, homosexual behavior would have been so stigmatized at this time. Yes. Even possibly criminalized, right? Yes, it was criminalized in New York. state and most other places in the United States and around the world and just seen as sort of

evidence of perversion and moral degeneracy, like so many connotations of it that are extremely damaging to people's reputations at the time. And also it's these two incredibly beautiful, glamorous, connected, famous women. I can't even imagine the scandal. Yes. Oh, my gosh. It's enormous. It makes international headlines. Although it's interesting. Of course, the British press is much more deferential to royals. And so they don't cover it. They just say like, there's been some lurid testimony at this trial. The American press is like Mrs. Vanderbilt was in bed with another woman. And she, of course, immediately denies this story. And Lady Milford Haven does too. And she doesn't say whether she's asked if she'll testify. And she says, well, I'm going to

stand by Gloria until the end. This is an untruth. And so people think that she might come and testify. But then the British Royal family sort of goes into reputation management mode. And Lady Milford Haven is very good friends with Queen Mary, and she meets with the king and the queen, allegedly, according to reporters, and they tell her you can't testify. This is a disaster. It's going to make it worse. Even if she was testifying to deny it, it would just make it everything more scandalous. The coverage would increase. Exactly. It's good PR advice. You can see, I mean, I think throughout this, they do a good job at public relations. They know what they're doing. But they do allow her, and they do advise her, to send a representative to New York, to sort of represent.

her interests and try to keep her name out of the trial as much. So she hires a lawyer named Theobald Matthew to go to New York, which also another amazing name. What's his deal? His job is basically just to protect NADA and the reputation of the royals? Yes, exactly. So he's a top society lawyer at the time, and he goes to New York, and he meets with the lawyers on both sides and the judges. and he says to them, look, it would be for everybody's best interest that the British royals stay out of this. And they all basically agree pretty readily. Wow. What's up, everyone?

I'm Ego Wodom. My next guest, you know from Step Brothers Anchorman, Saturday Night Live and the Big Money Players Network. It's Will Ferrell. Woo, woo, woo, woo. My dad gave me the best advice ever. I went and had lunch with them one day, and I was like, And dad, I think I want to really give this a shot. I don't know what that means, but I just know the groundlings.

I'm working my way up through, and I know it's a place that come look for up and coming talent. He said, if it was based solely on talent, I wouldn't worry about you, which is really sweet. Yeah. He goes, but there's so much luck involved. And he's like, just give it a shot. He goes, but if you ever reach a point where you're banging your head against the wall and it doesn't feel fun anymore, it's okay to quit. If you saw it written down, it would not be an inspiration. It would not be on a calendar of, you know, the cat.

Just hang in there. Yeah, it would not be. Right, it wouldn't be that. There's a lot of luck. Listen to Thanks Dad on the Iheart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. What's up, everyone? I'm Ago Vodem. My next guest, you know from Step Brothers Anchorman, Saturday Night Live and the Big Money Players Network.

It's Will Farrell. My dad gave me the best advice ever. I went and had lunch with him one day, and I was like, and dad, I think I want to really give this a shot. I don't know what that means, but I just know the groundlings. I'm working my way up through, and I know it's a place that come look for up-and-coming talent. He said, if it was based solely on talent, I wouldn't worry about you, which is really sweet. Yeah.

He goes, but there's so much luck involved. And he's like, just give it a shot. He goes, but if you ever reach a point where you're banging your head against the wall and it doesn't feel fun anymore, it's okay to quit. If you saw it written down, it would not be an inspiration. It would not be on a calendar of, you know, the cat. Just hang in there. Yeah, it would not be. Right, it wouldn't be that.

There's a lot of luck. Listen to Thanks Dad on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts. Is there a moment in the. case where the British royals would have come up, where they sort of move away from it? Yes, exactly. We can see this sort of cover up. That might be too strong where word play out in real time. So there's a point during Gloria Vanderbilt's cross-examination. One of the Gertrude Whitney's side's biggest points is that Gloria was always traveling and wasn't present for her daughter. And so Herbert Smith, Gertrude's lawyer, asks Gloria about all of the time that she spent in London and in the

English countryside in the early 1930s and is pressing her on this and is like, why were you gone from your daughter? Little Gloria is in Paris for some of this time. And Gloria just says personal reasons, which is code for I was helping my twin sister have an affair with the Prince of Wales. With the Prince of Wales. Yeah, as one is doing often when they're in England. So normally, Herbert Smith would be pushing on this. This is a good point for your case. You're leaving your daughter in another country. But, because it's about the Prince of Wales and because Theobald Matthew has said, please don't do this, he just drops it. He just drops this line of questioning and moves on. Which is fascinating because I know

that the British press is historically and arguably to the present day, very deferential to the British royal family. But it's amazing to imagine that the American legal system would also be sort of obeying those norms. I know. It's honestly shocking to me. There's even a point shortly after this where Gloria mentions that she borrows $4,000 from somebody so that she could sort of have some money of her own that wasn't regulated by the administrators of her daughter's trust. $4,000 in 1934, it's like $75,000 today. It's a big loan to get from somebody. Yeah, a good amount of money. Yeah. And so, of course, Herbert Smith says, well, who are you getting that money from? And she says, oh, I don't want to say it out loud, can I write it down? And the judge allows it. And she writes it on this piece of paper.

She passes it to the judge. He reads it. He passes it to her lawyer. He reads it. And then he passes it to Herbert Smith, who reads it and then sort of melodramatically tears it into tiny little pieces and throws it in the trash. And the historical record being what it is, we know whose name was on that piece of paper. And it was Edward Prince of Wales. That's so funny that they wrote it down to what it wouldn't get written into the court record. Yes, exactly. The Prince of Wales's name never is mentioned ever in the court record, even though he plays a substantial part in both Gloria's lives. So obviously, even though the Prince of Wales was a pretty fundamental piece of this puzzle, it's kind of where Gloria was when she was away from her daughter, whether or not that was worth mentioning in the custody case or not, or worth being a factor in whether she should have custody over her daughter, It's fascinating to me the lengths that the American legal system went to to protect the British royal family.

I know. It's incredible to me and it's interesting. There's a lot of other royal connections in this case. And the legal system, particularly the judge, so in this custody case, there's not a jury. It's just one judge who's hearing all of the evidence. And this guy, Justice John Francis Carew, is pretty self-consciously American. He's born and bred New Yorker, middle class, and doesn't have a lot of for royals who are not British. So at one point, to sort of establish that Gloria is of good character and has good friends, her lawyer brings up, okay, well, she's friends with all of these titled people, and Gloria is sort of naming them and her brother is naming them. And the judge is like, stop talking about these foreigners, basically. He says, let me find the quote. I mean, it's just, oh yeah, do not stress too much on that exalted and aristocratic nobility, because

this little girl is an American citizen. Oh, that's so funny. So for, these non-British royals, he's like, these people mean nothing to me. They're not American. They have bad values. But for the British royal families, he's like, we'll do anything to keep them out of the case. Is there any foreign royal who does make a good impression on the judge? There is one. So Gloria Vanderbilt, a year and a half after her husband's death meets a man named Prince Gottfried of Hoanloa Langenborg, who is a German prince. I know. His friends call him Friedel. and they are briefly engaged. It doesn't work out because of her crazy mother, more or less.

But he actually comes to testify in her trial and on her behalf. And the judge really likes him, actually, I think because he's so honest about how he kind of does nothing. He didn't like foreigners. He didn't like foreign nobles. He thought they were absurd. The British Royals, he understood. He got their whole deal. But this is the one foreign noble that he was like, okay.

This one's okay. Yes. And sort of ironically, he likes him because Friedel is really upfront about the fact that he does nothing and is like a man of leisure and just hangs out in the south of France and his pajamas all day. And the judge is like, this is an honest fourth-right young man. That sounds wonderful. Yeah. And it's, so the other really sort of interesting thing is that after his engagement with Gloria Vanderbilt ends, Prince Friedel marries Princess Margarita of Greece and Denmark. And she comes to testify on Gloria's behalf in this custody trial. And the American press is so

baffled by this. They're like, why would you go across the ocean to testify in your husband's ex's custody trial for the ex. That's like, wow, what a woman. What they don't put together most of them is that Princess Margarita is Lady Milford Haven's niece. Oh, so she's also, so she's defending her husband's ex-fiance, but she's also defending her aunt's honor. Exactly. exactly by saying this woman who's accused of having an affair with her has an impeccable reputation. Oh, I love those sneaky. One thing that you learned doing Noble Blood is everyone has a little connection. All of these nobles have a connection. I know. And everybody's related to each other. So the American newspapers at the time didn't find that branch of the family tree.

No. And they're all sort of curious about it. But there she is. You say Greece and Denmark, And I'm just curious, is there, if we're talking about secret little links, is there a link to Prince Philip there? Yes, Princess Margarita is Prince Philip's older sister. Oh, my God, of course. So he's also related to Nott. He was also Nada's nephew. Yes. So actually, Nada and her husband, George, raised Philip for a little bit. In the early, they take him in and he, they sent him to boarding school. And then Prince George dies. And so then Prince Philip goes on to be raised in. large part by his brother, Lewis Mountbatten. But yeah, they are super closely tied in to that part of the royal family. Another point for them having to maintain this sort of reputation management.

Yes, completely. This is just a fascinating connection. I'm wondering at the heart of this trial is this 10-year-old little girl. How is all of this going for her? Do we know? Yeah, it's a disaster. That's, I think, like the true tragedy of this trial is it's extremely traumatizing for her. She has millions of people hearing these horrible things about her family. She has to testify herself. The judge lets her testify in chambers, so she doesn't have to do it publicly, but of course, her testimony leaks. And it damages her for the rest of her life.

She has a strained relationship with both her mother and her aunt after the trial, and members of the family on both sides blame her for being the cause of this trial. And she was 10. How was she the cause? She was 10. It's unbelievable. Yeah, it's really tragic, and it just makes you think about all the ways that this could have been handled differently. How does this trial end up?

Yeah, so, I mean, I would recommend listening to the full episode. I'll give you the full context and sort of a play-by-play. But ultimately, the judge awards custody to her aunt, to Gertrude Whitney. Wow. Yeah, it's pretty shocking. And a large part of that is because of Little Gloria's testimony. She seemed to be really, really frightened of her mother, and nobody understood exactly why. In 1985, Gloria Vanderbilt, Little Gloria publishes a memoir called Once Upon a Time,

where she basically reveals that her grandmother, Laura Morgan, so Gloria's mother. The mother of these magnificent Morgan twins. Exactly, exactly. And my personal nemesis at this point basically schemed to have this trial happen and to have her granddaughter removed. from her daughter's custody in order for Laura to sort of secure her own place within the Vanderbilt family. She was obsessed with status and with money, and she felt like her daughter wasn't deferring to her interests enough. Her granddaughter was sort of her bargaining ship. She threw her own daughter under the bus to use her granddaughter as a status symbol?

Yes. She testifies against her daughter at the trial. It's pretty terrible. So at the end of this trial, little Gloria goes into the custody of her paternal aunt? Yes. And unfortunately, tragically, it's not any better for her because I mentioned before, most wealthy women at the time raised their children in the same way. So Gertrude is extremely absent. One of her little Gloria's cousins, Gerta says later, after the trial, no one cared about Gloria.

She was left basically alone. Oh, that's heartbreaking. It's really heartbreaking. What happens to her mother, Gloria Morgan? Gloria is such an interesting character. I think the author Barbara Goldsmith, who wrote a great book called Little Gloria Happy at Last, sort of compares her to a figure in a fairy tale. That's how Gloria sees herself.

Things happen to her. She doesn't seem to feel she has any agency. And she's always waiting for somebody to solve things for her. She and her twin sister, Telma, lived together for most of the rest of their lives. She lives in Los Angeles for a long time. She has a relationship with an actress named Kettie Kevin for a long time. I don't mean not to ever speculate on a historical figure sexuality, but do we know or know that she had romantic or sexual relationships with women? Yes, yes, we do know that.

Her daughter, at least Gloria Vanderbilt, has written about that, about her mother's bisexuality. She had relationships with men and with women throughout her life. What's interesting about this case, too, because Gloria Vanderbilt's sexuality is used against her is that Gertrude Whitney was also bisexual and also had relationships with women and men throughout her life. But, of course, that doesn't come up in the trial. No, it's just about reputation. Exactly. So, yeah, Gloria Morgan has a hard time. And in fairness, I guess, to Gertrude Whitney, I do think it's unfair her child was taken from her.

But she also is not really present for her daughter in a lot of ways. she doesn't seem to know how to do it. So even when Gloria gets a little older and wants to co-live with her mother, the older Gloria will just disappear for weekends at a time and be sort of absent. When Gloria, the younger Gloria turns 21 and gets access to her trust, she cuts her mother off. Wow. And they go through periods of not speaking and reconciling and not speaking and reconciling. Ultimately, they do reconcile before the older Gloria's death in 1965.

but it's a really fraught relationship. I mean, it just seems like the real tragedy of this case is the way these adults were using a 10-year-old child for their own ends. Yes, exactly, exactly. And I think that for so many of the people involved money and power and status just warped their ability to sort of see clearly or objectively and to think about, as you said, the child who's at the heart of this. Well, Mira, this is an absolutely phenomenal case. anyone who's interested in hearing about it in more detail should listen to history on trial and just go back and listen to pretty much every episode of that podcast because I've learned so much. Are there any other episodes, any other trials that you've highlighted that are particular favorites that you want to highlight now?

Oh, yes. I mean, you sort of fall in love. I'm sure this is the same for you with Noble Blood with everything you write about. You get into the weeds of it. One of the ones that I've learned the most from is about a woman named Iva Tagore. who was known as Tokyo Rose, and she was an American who got of Japanese descent, who got stuck in Japan during World War II, ended up working for a Japanese radio station, and then after the war is accused of treason. And it becomes sort of this political cause for the United States government. And the way, it was a story I had never heard before. It made me reflect a lot about how the government uses its power and who it uses that power for and against. Phenomenal. Well, go listen to History on Trial. Mira, thank you so much for joining us. Thank you so much for having me, Dana. It was so much fun to talk about this case. Noble Blood is a production of IHeart Radio and Grimmin-Mild from Aaron Menke.

Noble Blood is hosted by me, Dana Schwartz, with additional writing and researching by Hannah Johnston, Hannah Zwick, Courtney Sender, Julia Melani, and Armand Kasam. The show is edited and produced by Noemi Griffin and Rima Il K. Ali with supervising producer Josh Thane and executive producers Aaron Manky, Alex Williams, and Matt Frederick. For more podcasts from IHeart Radio, visit the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. Will Ferrell's Big Money Players and IHeart Podcasts presents soccer moms. So I'm Leanne. Yeah. This is my best friend, Janet. And we have been joined at the hips since high school.

Absolutely. A redacted amount of years later, we're still joined at the hip. Just a little bit bigger hips. This is a podcast. We're recording it as we tailgate our youth soccer games in the back of my Honda Odyssey. With all the snacks and drinks. Why did you get hard seltzer instead of beer? Oh, they hit a bogo.

Well, then you got them. Listen to soccer moms on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This is an IHeart podcast. Guaranteed Human.