Noble Blood - How a Dog Talks: The Surprising Redemption of Comic Sans [from Very Special Episodes]

Episode Date: July 26, 2026

Comic Sans is a punchline. But the notorious font's legacy isn't one of failure, because Comic Sans succeeded in ways its critics never saw coming. * Listen to Dana Schwartz on Very Special Episodes wherever you get your podcasts. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an I-Heart podcast. Guaranteed Human. On Raiders of the Lost podcast, we explore cinema like no one else, including huge interviews with stars like Ryan Gosling on Project Hail Mary. It was like the Jaws Shark. Didn't always work, came with its own problems. That's what made it great. The cast of Obsession.

On set, there was so much magic happening with each scene we were putting together. Deep dives into classics like 2001 of Space Odyssey or Fight Club. Plus weekly episodes on all industry news. Listen to Raiders of the Lost podcast on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. And for more, follow at Raiders of the Lost Podcast and at TikTok podcast network on TikTok. What's up, fam? I'm sports journalist Ari Chambers. Hey, what's up, y'all?

It's your girl, Sam Jay. And we're the host of everyone watches women's sports, a new podcast from Together in IHeart women's sports. We're breaking down the biggest headlines. Naomi Osaka. showing out. Shout out to you, Naomi. The viral moments. I've been obsessed with Kashan Rock's

boxing journey. She looks good. Her combos are swift. And the stories everyone's talking about across women's sports. Because everyone watches women's sports. Listen to everyone watches women's sports. On the Iheart radio app.

Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcast. I'm Jake Brennan. And on the Disgraceland podcast, I explore the wild lies of rock stars and unbelievable true crime stories from music history. These are the stories you haven't heard. the kind you'll end up telling someone else.

Like the time Paul McCartney spent in a notorious prison or the bizarre crime Lady Gaga is accused of where that time Blondie's Debbie Harry escaped Ted Bunny. Listen to Discraceland on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, it's Nora Jones, and my podcast playing along is back with more of my favorite musicians.

Check out my newest episode with Phineas. So I went home and I asked Billy if she wanted to sing it, she immediately made it her own thing. You really know how to make me cry when you give me those ocean eyes, and I'm scared. So come hang out with us in the studio and listen to Playing Along on the Iheart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. It's been called the cockroach of typefaces, a font of ill will, and the default punchline in the design. community. We're talking about Comic Sans, that round, friendly comic book style font that everyone loves to hate. But why? How did hating Comic Sans become a kind of shorthand for good taste?

And how did this particular font, one of only a few most people can name on site, end up as a cultural joke? Comic Sans was created for a very specific purpose. purpose at a very specific time, a time before social media algorithms, AI everything, and cyber trucks, when tech was trying to be approachable, accessible, friendlier, even fun. An awful lot has changed since then. You hear news of slipdresses, CDs, and other 90s relics having a resurgence. Why not Comic Sans? Is it really fair? to hate on a font so much because it's possible

Comic Sans actually succeeded just not in a way its critics ever imagined. Welcome to very special episodes and IHeart's original podcast. I'm your host, Dana Schwartz, and this is

How a Dog Talks, the surprising redemption of comic Sands. Hey, welcome back to very special episodes. I'm, Jason English. She is Dana Schwartz. Hey, hey. He is Aaron Burnett. I know you heard that. Do any of you have a Comic Sans subplot from your own lives? You know what I'll say? I started resenting the Comic Sans backlash because it felt very lazy. I don't like when people

just sort of bandwagon on a thing they're told to hate when I'm like half the people, probably 90% of the people pretending, you know, hating Comic Sans online. It's like, when have you ever had an opinion about a fun? You're just making fun of people that you perceive to be like unsophisticated or not like in the no like you. So I just, I have a knee jerk reaction always to kind of defend the underdog against people looking for an opportunity just to be snarky. So I'm pro comic sans.

I'm right there with you, Dan. I'm the exact same reasoning. Like I always stick up for the underdog and comic sands is like the super underdog. Doug. I have a quick story. Very early in my career, I'm working as a junior copywriter, maybe even an intern copywriter at that point at an ad agency here in New York. If you remember Chandler that season on Friends, I think that was me. And my brilliant British creative director boss had brought me into work on a kids candy campaign. And we had all these headlines and I'm gathering them into a presentation.

And because it's supposed to be coming out of the bounds of kids, I am using a Comic Zands font. And I'm nervous anyway. Again, very early on right after college. And he comes in to review them in my little cube. And I'm nervously scrolling and showing them on the screen. And he looks to me right in the eye and says, I hate this font.

And then that was it. Walked away. No comments on any of the work. probably hours and hours days. So I have been scarred by that, and I want to see a redemption here. Totally. Amazing. Picture this.

It's a sunny day in 1994. You're on the leafy campus of Microsoft in Redmond, Washington, not far from Seattle. Microsoft is already a behemoth. It's powerful, profitable, and poised. 1994 is the first year that Americans spend almost as much money on computers as they do on television sets. And this is just before Windows 95 changes everything. I think that they were growing fast. They were obviously very productive at that moment in time.

They're cranking stuff out. Optimism is high in the 90s. That's Terrence, a type designer who worked on updating Comic Sans. for 21st century use. My name is Terrence Winesrell. I am an executive creative director at Monotype. And Monotype designs, distributes, and manages fonts all over the world.

Even though he wasn't working at Microsoft back then, Terrence knows a bit about how fonts got made in those heady days of 1994. Comic Sans is very much a relic of the 90s, a time when computers were clunky, weird, and oddly optimistic. Before tech got sleek and intimidating, it was trying to be friendly. They were experimenting, and I think they were trying everything. And really, computer interfaces were new.

And so something like Microsoft Bob and this skeuomorphism was really an extreme example of how can we take this new tool and make it as approachable. as possible and make people want to learn it. Skeomorphism is a design strategy that brings something from the old into the new to make it more acceptable. Think of how the trash on your computer looks like a trash can. That strategy helped a lot of people in the early 90s when personal computers were new and scary. Bob took skeomorphism and turned the dial all the way up.

replacing your desktop with a cartoon room where every object had a job. When you open Bob, you're greeted by a shiny gold door knocker on a bright red door. Let me show you what I've got in here. Yes, this is the scooties band. This is my mailing list. Knock and suddenly are inside a cozy, if garish, living room. There's a roaring fireplace, a striped armchair, a carrieve. coffee table and helpful props everywhere. A Rolodex, a wall calendar, a checkbook resting nearby.

Bob's goal was to make using your computer simple, friendly, and clear. Want to balance your checkbook? Click the checkbook. Need to see your schedule? Tap the calendar. Looking for someone's number? Obviously the Rolodex. And this wasn't some fringe side project. Bob had serious people behind it. The marketing manager was Melinda French, who had just married Bill Gates. She might have had something to do with Bob's tagline. Introducing hardworking, easygoing software, everyone will use. That didn't quite work out. Bob was supposed to be so easy to use that it didn't even come with a manual. It did, however, ship with a copy of Bob magazine, including, a feature describing a perfect day with Bob, writing letters, paying bills, planning reunions,

ordering pizza, and still getting to bed by 11. But the key part of Bob for our story is that it came with assistance, officially known as the Friends of Bob. They helped you use the program and customize your space. Options included Chaos the Cat, or be the Globe, Java, the coffee-drinking reptile, and Scuz the rat. Scuzz would occasionally rummage through a garbage can. But the default assistant was Rover, an easy-to-work with Golden Retriever. Clicking on him would bring up a dialogue bubble with Rover saying, I can dig up information and fetch whatever you need.

Oh, and I'll stay off the furniture. And it's those dialogue bubbles from Rover that we have to thank for Comic Sans. Yeah, so Vinnie is at Microsoft, and he sees this cartoon dog speaking in Times to Roman. And like any good typographer or type designer, he thinks to himself this doesn't fit. The vibe of this typeface doesn't match the rest of the interface.

Vinny is type designer Vincent Conner, who joined Microsoft in 1993. Vincent told us he's now retired from doing interviews about Comic Sans. But when Twitter user at Rec Trek 97 asked him, Why did you create Comic Sans, bro? He replied, The Microsoft Bob team asked me what I thought of their dog talking in Times New Roman.

He told them, that is not how a dog talks. Vincent had a fair bit of freedom at Microsoft. He told the author Simon Garfield, quote, It was nothing like the traditional type production. It was me in a room not answering to anybody and not following the rules. In the 90s, there was this punk mentality around digital type because it was still quite new. All kinds of wacky stuff. People were scanning things in and converting and stealing.

Vincent didn't steal anything to create to comic sands, but he did have inspirations. So he's inspired by comic book lettering, and he has some comic books in his office. So he designs Comic Sans to replace Times and Roman in this specific kind of use case with this cartoon. And apparently he made it very quickly, and he drew it with a digital pen only. Vincent has said that he drew the font in a program called Macromedia Fontagrapper. A big fan of comics and graphic novels, he was particularly inspired by the lettering in Watchmen and Batman the Dark Night Returns. The font was meant to be friendly, not perfect.

At first, it wasn't even a complete typeface. The spacing was inconsistent. The shapes didn't all match. Lowercase P wasn't a mirror opposite of Q, as it often is in Sands-Seraf fonts. In other words, comic sands broke all the rules. Vincent has said, The joy for me was not making it right or perfect,

or straight. His boss at Microsoft, Robert Norton, reportedly offered suggestions for tightening things up. But Vincent liked the wonkiness with each letter its own shape. Alas, Comic Sans never actually made it into Bob. Rover kept on speaking in Times New Roman, perhaps because Comic Sans didn't quite fit inside the speech bubbles. Bob itself was a massive, memorable flop. Time magazine named it among the 50 worst inventions, alongside New Coke and subprime mortgages. The flop wasn't because of its fonts. Bob was incompatible with most computers of its time. For one thing, the program required eight megabytes of memory, about twice the typical amount of many home PCs then. Plus, reviewers found the program and

and its cartoon helpers infantilizing. It seemed better suited for kids than smart adult who just needed an on-ramp to a new technology. But Comic Sans didn't sync with Bob. The font showed up in a program called 3D Movie Maker and was released as a bonus product to Windows 95, then a full system font. It also ended up on Microsoft products designed for Macs.

So it gets bundled. into Windows 95, which is a smashing success, right? They're just millions of copies of Windows 95 going out, and Comic Sans goes along with it. So the most important part of the popularity of Comic Sans is, frankly, the distribution. Comic Sans is on millions of computers in the hands of millions of people who are not classically trained graphic designers. And so they're going to choose typefaces at free will. that's when it goes wild.

Comic Sans didn't become popular because it was perfect. It became popular because it was everywhere. At Microsoft, Vincent noticed people using Comic Sans for birthday party invitations and event sign-ups. There were only a handful of font choices on Windows 95. Ariel, Courier New, a few others. Comic Sans was the only one that felt like it had a pulse. And so if you think about Comic Sans is really standing out,

and in a room full of suits, other formal typefaces, Comic Sans is like the denim on the rack, and it stands out as being the most human, the most casual, the most approachable, the most humble, the most friendly typeface in that list. But once Comic Sans escaped into the wild, something unexpected happened. Because when everybody suddenly has asked, access to the same tools, not to everyone agrees on how they should be used or who should be

using them. I'm Ruby Carr, the host of the podcast, Encore. Check out our brand new episodes featuring music from the show that everyone is reheating as we speak. Heated rivalry. Join me as I go behind the songs that brought Shane and Elia together. I'll tell you the stories of Fice, My Moon, My Man, Wolf Parades, I'll Believe in Anything, and tattoos, all the things she's.

said and how they all became a part of this global phenomenon. Stream encore on IHeart Radio, crave, or wherever you get your podcasts. What's up, fam? I'm sports journalist Ari Chambers. Hey, what's up, y'all? It's your girl, Sam J. And we're the host of everyone watches

women's sports, a new podcast from Together and I heart women's sports. Because let's be real. Women's sports is giving us way too much to talk about these days. So Kelsey Finler, she became the first female solo roer to go from California to of Y.

My first thought is, like, what's up with the snacks? Like, what are we eating? The highlights, the rivalries, the breakout stars, the moments that take over your entire timeline. And the conversations that start during the game and somehow keep going all week. Every week, we're breaking down the biggest stories across women's sports. Naomi Osaka showing out, she beat Sabalinka. Shout out to you, Naomi.

You get the palm, Naomi. You get the palm for that. Because we're not just interested in what happened. We're interested in why everyone's talking about it. Because everyone watches women's sports. Listen to everyone watches women's sports on the IHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. I'm Jake Brennan, and on the Disgraceland podcast, I explore the wild lives of rock stars and unbelievable true crime stories from music history. These are the stories you haven't heard, the kind you'll end up telling someone else.

Like the time Paul McCartney spent in one of the world's most notorious prisons. Imagine that. You're Paul McCartney. It's 1980. You're an ex-beetal, and you're doing time in one of Japan's worst prisons right there alongside Yakuza gangsters and for a ridiculous charge. Or the bizarre crime Lady Gaga is accused of. Who is the artist Lady Gaga as being accused of doing the unthinkable to, after allegedly stealing her music and style to become famous? And what about that time, Blondie's debaunties, Harry escaped a serial killer.

The man who had given her that ride she barely escaped from was Ted Bundy. Listen to Discrace Land on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Early type designing and setting was so laborious that it is a blasphemy to the history of the craft that any fool can sit down at their personal computer and design their own typeface. Technological advances have transformed typography into a tawdry, trivia, That screed comes from the Ban Comic Sans Facebook page. It's a place where users gather to trade what they see as the most egregious uses of the font.

A war monument in Cherbourg, a hospital referral form, a mosaic in Italy, a condolence notice, a church bulletin, places where the tone is supposed to be solemn, and some of the... Suddenly, it's not. Where the wrong typeface doesn't just look bad, it feels like a violation. Comic Sans wasn't just showing up, it was showing up in all the wrong places. That text didn't just live on Facebook either. It originally appeared on the website for the ban Comic Sans campaign. Started in 2002, the campaign included a manifesto, posters, and stickers, a small arsenal of typographic enforcement. And it all went back to one man. When I first experienced comic scenes, I thought it was poorly designed. I thought it was kind of childish and silly.

That man is Dave Combs. I'm a graphic designer, artist, publisher, a bit of a miscreant and instigator in some ways. I'm a typography nerd, I guess you could say. Dave noticed that Comic Sans was being used in serious contexts. Such as medical information, important flyers, and things that people should take seriously. And that offended me as a typography, you know, kind of aficionado, I guess, you would say. And so I kind of knee-jerk reaction. started a campaign to ban it. To people who care deeply about design, typography is a signal.

It tells you what's serious, what's casual, what deserves respect. And Dave wasn't alone in objecting to these uses of comic sands. When his partner, Holly, a fellow graphic designer, got a gig working for a museum in Indianapolis, she discovered that they wanted text for an entire exhibit set in Congress. This was very offensive, like, to her sensibilities. And so when she brought it to me and told me that's what she was doing, that also sparked the impetus to, like, what are we going to do about this? So I was like, well, no sense to complain. And let's just be in comic scenes. He became, in his words, the self-appointed typography police. No badge, no jurisdiction, no warrants. But he did have stickers. Dave made a run of them that said ban comic sands.

Some included an image of Vincent Conner's face. He placed them on a doctor's office sign that said accepting new patients in comic sands. The result? The office switched to Times New Roman. Dave silk-screened T-shirts saying ban comic sands. He made mugs. He created a website with downloadable stickers that, anyone could print. Before long, the Ban Comic Sans campaign reached a wider audience than

Dave or Holly could have imagined. Emails poured in from graphic designers and typography enthusiasts worldwide. The press noticed. One of the first mentions of the campaign came in 2004. Canada's National Post quoted the movement's manifesto, comparing the use of Comic Sans in serious contexts to showing up at a black tie event dressed as a clown. It's a metaphor that only works if you already know the dress code, and Comic Sans became a quick way to tell who did and who didn't. Not knowing when to use Comic Sans was a cultural shorthand, signaling taste, education, belonging, or lack thereof. If you knew, you knew. If you didn't, it shows you What almost no one was talking about in those conversations was who gets left out when taste gets policed.

And it didn't stop with Dave's stickers. There were message boards and online groups devoted entirely to mocking comic sands. People shared sightings and photos, like birdwatchers but angrier. Chrome extensions were built to erase it from websites. One design agency, even released a flash-based shooting game called Kill Comic Sans, which is a lot of energy for a font. But why did Comic Sans provoke such ire?

Even among people who don't consider themselves to be font nerds, one typography expert has some thoughts. I'm Thomas Finney, and I do fonts. and I kind of do everything to do with thoughts in one stripe or another. Thomas is quick to note that he is not part of the backlash movement. I think Comic Sans is perfectly fine for some uses. Was it overused? Sure.

Were the reasons it was overused understandable? Why, yes. But the backlash, I think, happened precisely because it was used so heavily and because it was at least some of the time used in situations where it was perhaps inappropriate. And on top of that, though, it really feels like there was some sort of bandwagon effect. And some of the people who turned up their noses at Comic Sans got a kick out of pointing out how knowledgeable and superior they were or something. In other words, hating Comic Sans became a shortcut of sorts, a way to perform. warm taste. It wasn't really about the font anymore. Terrence Wineserl has an analogy for why the

typeface made some designers so enraged. I think it makes people upset because they see it as a missed opportunity for the use of a better typeface that fits that scenario better. Let me hit you with an analogy. Fonds are like shoes. They have an aesthetic quality and they have utility. And so Comic Sans is like the crocs of the shoe world. It is, you know, super casual. And so if you were a shoe designer and you saw the populated of crocs, it would probably burn you. Eventually, word about the ban Comic Sans campaign got back to Vincent Conner. He was not amused. What's the point? Haven't they got anything better to do? He complained to one journalist. This wasn't just a joke to Vincent. It was his work, his name, his reputation

turned into a punchline. Not only was his typeface being publicly roasted, but his face was on the stickers. Imagine walking into a cafe and seeing your own head used as a warning label. And he said, you need to stop doing this because you're making me look bad. This is my careers, what I do, and I don't appreciate you using my image on your merchandise or whatever. It never became a full-blown feud, but it did get awkward. The design world is tiny, the typography forums even tinier. Before long, a member of a typography forum the men were both in stepped in to break up the spat. And when the two men realized they had been invited to the same of the same event,

in London, they chose detente over drama, a quiet handshake ending a surprisingly personal skirmish. By then, something had started to change for Dave. We both appreciate typography, and Vincent is a very creative individual. So am I. And I started to see him more as a human than as a bad guy who made a bad font, you know. Once Comic Sans had a face, and a story, it became harder to treat it as a punchline or a crime. I mean, he was just trying to make something better that didn't look right to him. He wasn't planning on it being released to the world as a typeface that would be, you know, on every flyer and every website. You know, he was trying to solve a single problem and then it kind of went viral.

To Thomas Finney, the fact that the typeface escaped its original. confines is actually a good sign. I think it speaks to the strength of the design. I think it's pretty impressive and cool that something that was originally designed for such an error use case, talking dog user interface word balloons on screen has become this cultural phenomenon. That's wild and very cool. These days, Dave Combs has changed his mind entirely about comic sands.

He's also come to understand some of the same. about how creativity gets judged and what that feels like. I have kind of a silly personality sometimes, and sometimes I just kind of feel like I'm always in the wrong context, too. I feel like I'm at places that I don't belong. So I get at Comic Sans. It's rough out there, you know, and you get a lot of hate from people that maybe just don't understand you.

So I feel like Comic Sans is misunderstood. more than anything. And I can relate to that. Dave now uses Comic Sans on his business card. Call it a typographical apology. I intentionally use Comic Sans because we're pals now. After all, that's what Comic Sans was built for, to be friendly. And it turns out Comic Sans has been helping people all along.

Just not the people doing the minds. I'm Ruby Carr, the host of the podcast, Encore. Check out our brand new episodes featuring music from the show that everyone is reheating as we speak. Heated rivalry. Join me as I go behind the songs that brought Shane and Elia together. I'll tell you the stories of Fice, My Moon, my Man, wolf parades, I'll Believe in Anything, and tattoos all the things she said, and how they all became a part of this global phenomenon. Stream Encore on IHeart Radio, crave, or wherever you get your podcasts. What's up fam? I'm sports journalist Ari Chambers.

Hey, what's up y'all? It's your girl, Sam J. And we're the host of everyone watches women's sports, a new podcast from Together and I Heart Women's Sports. Because let's be real. Women's sports is giving us way too much to talk about these days. So Kelsey Finler, she became the first female solo rower to go from California to Hawaii. My first star is like, what's up with the snacks? Like, what are we eating? The highlights, the rivalries, the breakout stars, the moments that take over your entire time. timeline. In the conversations that start during the game and somehow keep going all week.

Every week, we're breaking down the biggest stories across women's sports. Naomi Osaka showing out, she beat. Sabalinka. Shout out to you, Naomi. You get the palm, Naomi. You get the palm for that. Because we're not just interested in what happened. We're interested in why everyone's talking about it.

Because everyone watches women's sports. Listen to everyone watches women's sports on the IHeart Radio app. Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcast. I'm Jake Brennan. the disgrace land podcast, I explore the wild lives of rock stars and unbelievable true crime stories from music history. These are the stories you haven't heard, the kind you'll end up telling someone else. Like the time Paul McCartney spent in one of the world's most notorious prisons. Imagine that. You're Paul McCartney. It's 1980. You're an ex-beetle. And you're doing time

in one of Japan's worst prisons right there alongside Yakuza gangsters. for a ridiculous charge. Or the bizarre crime, Lady Gaga is accused them. Who is the artist Lady Gaga as being accused of doing the unthinkable to after allegedly stealing her music in style to become famous? And what about that time, Blondie's Debbie Harry escaped a serial killer? The man who had given her that ride she barely escaped from was Ted Bundy. Listen to Disgraceland on the I-Heart Radio app.

Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. So around 2008 and 2009, I was like, why does writing on the computer have to be exactly as hard as writing by hand? That's Thrandy Hudgens, an American studying for his PhD in biology at the University of St. Andrews in Scotland. Yes, I work on old fishing records. Thrandy has spent much of his life on ships, not very connected to the world of technology.

But around 2009, during a stint in New Zealand, his family began asking him to stay in Touchmore via email and Facebook. And he wanted to stay in Touchmore with his friends back home. But writing had always been hard for Thrandy, and that's when he discovered the magic of Comic Sans. By typing out his emails in Word first and adjusting the font.

It became a whole lot easier to communicate. When I began to play with the different fonts, that was when I began to really first interact with comic sense. But at the time, I did not know what I was doing. I just knew that when I used the fun fonts, it was easier to write my emails to send to my sister, to my dad, to my friends. Thrandy thought that using Comic Sans made it easier for him to write, just because the font sparked joy.

Perhaps the feeling of playfulness took away some of the stress that had always been associated with writing for him. You see, Thrandy had dyslexia, like an estimated 15 to 20% of Americans. And that's not all. So I actually have what I'm pretty sure is like a subtype of dyslexia.

My handwriting is appallingly bad, and I cannot make letters. and I cannot write by hand to save my life. For some people with dyslexia, Comic Sans is easier to read. And the reason might have to do with the very thing some designers criticized. Remember those wonky, uneven letters mentioned earlier where each letter is its own shape?

The very thing that broke all the font rules? That's a big part of what makes Comic Sans work for Thrandy and others. Our typography, expert Terence says that quirkiness might actually be a gift. I do think it's interesting that there are no repeated shapes in comic sands. So nothing is a mirror image of itself in the way that other kind of geometric typefaces are. I think that can help people because each shape is unique, which is something that we look for in in legible typefaces.

For Thrandy, that tracks. And because the letters are differently shaped, it doesn't get as wibbly with your eyes when you're trying to read it, because the letters aren't reflected, and it can be so much easier to read for dyslexic. So when letters aren't mirror images, meaning when each one has its own distinct shape, they're potentially easier to process and easier to read for some people, like Thrandy, who's more concerned about access than aesthetics. So, of course, I read all of my documents in comic sands at this point.

I'm sending emails in comic sands. I'm sending drafts in comic sense. I want to write my whole damn dissertation in comic sense. Thank you very much. So I've gotten used to it like really advocating quite hard for it and using it in my day-to-day life. Over the years, designers have tried to create typefaces specifically for people with dyslexia,

like dyslexy and open dyslexic. But no single typeface works because dyslexia itself is different from person to person. So far, research hasn't identified a magic bullet. But some organizations, including the British Dyslexia Association, have pointed to Comic Sans as a helpful option. And when it comes to accessibility, lived experience matters. People often know what works for them better than any study does. And now there's lots of dyslexic-friendly fonts.

But back, you know, in 2008, there wasn't. It was just Comic Sans. This is the thought that I've been using for 20 years. When I was 19 years old, I could barely write a paragraph. Now I am 39 and doing my PhD. It took years of advocating for himself, but he's found a degree of acceptance at St. Andrews when it comes to using Comic Sans.

Is it still hard? Yes. But I think fundamentally people are more inclined to just say, if they say it works, it works. Beyond the academic bubble, though, it's a different story. Outside of the university, I find that people are still fundamentally very judgmental about Comic Sanss. And I don't know why. Why do people have such strong opinions about a font? For me, it's the difference between having a degree and not having a degree and then having a doctorate and not having a doctorate.

And for you, what? it makes you don't like looking at it. How can you possibly think these two things are comparable? The gap between what works and what, air quote, looks right, doesn't stay on the page. Thrandy is used to being judged for his choice of font. But when Comic Sans appears in the wild, something else happens. When I see that someone has printed a brochure in Comic Sans for their store or for their how to access the food bank or how to file your taxes.

I really get happy. To me, it feels like accessibility. You've put the thought in to understand that at the very least, people cannot read Times New Roman well. And so maybe Comic Sans did exactly what it was designed to do. Microsoft Bob may have flopped, but the idea behind it, to make technology feel more friendly, more accessible, didn't.

This funny, round, friendly font has been a surprise success in some contexts and broken down barriers. If Comic Sans helps a dyslexic person read better, faster, that's great for society. So Comic Sans has earned its right to exist. When Terrant Weingerl refreshed the typeface in 2010, he leaned even further into the comic book vibe.

Comic Sans has this imperfect human voice that really made it stand out. And it reminded me of wabi-sabi, art and philosophy, and about kind of celebrating the imperfections of it. Art doesn't have to be beautiful to be effective. And I think that is another good conclusion for Comic Sans. It doesn't have to be perfect to fulfill its duty. It doesn't have to impress designers or win arguments online. Sometimes it just has to help someone.

And not for nothing. It really does sound like a dog. Zarin, I don't know if you could make a movie out of this, but I'm interested to hear if you were able to cast this one. Oh, yes. And actually, I did a whole vibe casting on this one. I didn't want to look them all up and try to decide based on how they look, what's the closest actor and actress to portray them.

So instead, I just went, what's the vibe? And so this is what I came up with. For Vincent Canare, the designer of Comic Sans, I went with Rayne Wilson, Dwight from the office. All right. I see the vision. Okay. And then for the self-appointed typography police, Dave Combs and his partner Holly, for Dave, I went with, probably going to see this coming.

John Krasinski is Jim from the office. And his partner, Holly, Jenna Fisher, as Pam from the office. Love it. And so for Thrandy Hudgens, the American studying for his Ph.D., I went with B.J. Novak from the office. So you got a full office cast. Let's reunite the cast. Genius.

Who are you casting as the dog? Oh, that's a good call. The virtual dog, that's the important thing. Yes, I did not have a virtual dog. You guys have any ideas? Got to work on it. You know, one of my cats would be happy to step in. Oh, I love that call.

Just to switch it up for the movie. Have a cat playing a dog. That's very comic sands. Yeah, yeah. Did you guys have a very special character you loved? I love a cartoon dog. Yes, yeah, good call. Yeah, I would.

extend that honor to all of the friends of Bob, the chaos, the cat, scuzz, the rat, Orby the Globe, Java, the reptile. I think you could do something with them as like their own Yo Gabba Gabba. Oh, heck yeah. For me, it was a war monument in Sherbourg. I was like, well, the fact that it has comic sands, it's just incredible. That one, I can see the backlash there. Maybe I'm on board there.

Oh, totally. I totally would. But that's why I liked it, I think. It was like, come on, you know, I know we need to be serious, but this is a very human moment. Also, can I say that this story just actually pulled my heartstrings and made me realize something that had a special bond with my mother over Comic Sans, which is she uses Comic Sans for all of her emails. And I used to roll my eyes like, oh, Mom, let's get with the Times, no more AOL type emails. But then I realized she was doing it for the same reasons that Thrandy did it to imbue her emails with joy. And then I started loving Comic Sans, and now I look forward to her.

emails with Comic Sans. Well, redemption at last, right? That's so sweet. Very special episodes is made by some very special people. Today's episode was produced in partnership with School of Humans. The show is hosted by Dana Schwartz, Zarin Burnett, and Jason English. Our senior producer is Josh Fisher. Today's episode was written by Best Love Joy. Our story editor is Virginia Prescott. From School of Humans, producers are Edelis Perez and Amelia Brock. Editing and sound design by Jesse Nyswanger. Research and fact-checking by Austin Thompson and Best Lovejoy. Original music by Elise McCoy. Show logo by Lucy Kintanilla. Executive producers of today's episode are Virginia Prescott and Jason English. Very Special Episodes is a production of IHeart Podcasts. You're a fan of the show.

You'll give us a nice rating on your favorite podcast platform. If you ever want to email us, we're very special episodes at gmail.com. We will see you back here next Wednesday. We explore cinema like no one else, including huge interviews with stars like Ryan Gosling on Project Hail Mary. It was like the Jaws shark. Didn't always work, came with its own problems. That's what made it great. The cast of obsession. On set, there was so much magic happening with each scene we were putting together. Deep dives into classics like 2001 of Space Odyssey or Fight Club, plus weekly episodes on all industry news. Listen to Raiders of the Lost podcast on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. And for more, follow at Raiders of the Lost podcast and at TikTok podcast network on TikTok.

What's up, fam? I'm sports journalist Ari Chambers. Hey, what's up, y'all? It's your girl, Sam J. And we're the host of everyone watches women's sports, a new podcast from Together in IHeart women's sports. We're breaking down the biggest headlines. Naomi Osaka, show it out. Shoutouts to you, Naomi. The viral moments. I've been obsessed with Kashan Rock's

boxing journey. She looks good. Her combos are swift. The stories everyone's talking about across women's sports. Because everyone watches women's sports. Listen to everyone watches women's sports on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. I'm Jake Brennan, and on my podcast, Disgraceland, I tell the stories behind music's biggest names.

Like how the story of the foo fighters isn't just about music. It's about grief, shock, in the moment everything changed. Imagine that. You're in the biggest band on the planet, as Dave Grohl was in 1994 in Nirvana. And the phone rings. And you learn that your singer, your friend, the reluctant voice of a generation, Kurt Cobain, is dead. Listen to Disgraceland on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, it's Nora Jones, and my podcast playing along is back with more of my favorite musicians.

Check out my newest episode with Phineas. So I went home and I asked Billy, if you're going to be a podcast. She wanted to sing it. She immediately made it her own thing. You really know how to make me cry when you give me those ocean eyes. And I'm scared. So come hang out with us in the studio and listen to Playing Along on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

This is an IHeart podcast. Guaranteed human.