Noble Blood - Medieval History with Dan Jones

Episode Date: May 10, 2022

Dan Jones is a historian, television presenter, the author of a dozen books of history and the upcoming novel ESSEX DOGS. We chat about medieval history, the truth behind Arthurian legends, and castles, in honor of Noble Blood's 75th episode!See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an I-heart podcast. Guaranteed Human. Readers, Katie's finalists, publicists. We have an incredible new episode this week for you guys. We have our girl Hillary Duff in here, and we can't wait for you to hear this episode. They put on Lizzie McGuire at 2 a.m. Video on Demand.

This guy's bobo-o-bub-a-m. To a-a-m-moyer. Lissie McGuire. And I'm like, wild bat you were with. It was like a first, like, closet moment from me where I was like, I don't feel like she's hot, like the rest of that. No, no, no. I was like, she's beautiful.

but I'm appreciating her in a different way than these boys are. I'm not like, but listen to Los Coltristas on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or whatever you get your podcast. Welcome to Noble Blood, a production of IHeart Radio and Grimm and Mild from Aaron Manky. Listener discretion advised. Readers, Katie's finalists, publicists. We have an incredible new episode this week for you guys. We have our girl Hillary Duff in here, and we can't wait for you to hear this episode. put on Lizzie McGuire at 2 a.m. Video on demand. This guy's...

2 a.m. Whatever time it is. Lizzie McGuire. And I'm like... A wild batch you were with. It was like a first, like, closet moment from me where I was like... You're like, I don't feel like she's hot, like the rest of that. No, no, no. I was like, she's beautiful. But I'm appreciating her in a different way than these boys are. I'm not like... But listen to Los Coleristas on the IHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or whatever you get your podcast.

I'm Iris Palmer and my new podcast is called Against All Od. exactly what the show is about, doing whatever it takes to be thoughts. Get ready to hear from some of your favorite entrepreneurs and entertainers as they share stories about defying expectations, overcoming barriers, and breaking generational patterns. I'm talking to people like award-winning actress, producer, and director, Eva Langoria. I think I had like $200 in my savings account, and my mom goes, what are you going to do? And I was like, I'll figure it out. We got a one-bedroom apartment for like $400 a month, and we all could not afford.

I was like, how am I going to make $100 a month? I'm opening up like I've never before. For those of you who think you know me from what you've seen on social media, get ready to see a whole new side of me. Listen to Against All Odds with Iris Palmer as part of the MyCultura podcast network, available on the IHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. If you are a founder or a freelancer or the friend who always says, hey, you know what, what if I started that?

This is for you. I'm telling you I had nothing to my name. I didn't know a single person in New York. And somehow I'm dressed by Oscar de Laurenta walking down that red carpet. This month, we sit down with entrepreneurs and creators who actually did it, who turned the scary leave into a business, a paycheck, and a life they are proud of. Direct center of our happiness or our regrets is whether or not we're taking action on the things that matter to us. They're not selfish. They're so important.

They actually lead to our greatest contributions because when we're living fulfilled, we actually show up better everywhere. We lead better. We're better friends. We're better relationships and collaborators and all those things because we have passion about the things we're doing. If you're trying to build something of your own this year, join us in these conversations that will make you braver and smarter with your money. Listen to Dos Amigos as part of the Michael Tutta Podcast Network, available on the IHard Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast.

Hi, this is Dana Schwartz, and this is the 75th episode of Noble Blood. To celebrate this monumental anniversary, I am so excited to be joined by the incredible historian, Dan Jones, the author of, I think a dozen books. His latest power and thrones, a new history of the Middle Ages, is basically just the most readable, interesting book about the entire thousand-year period of the Middle Ages. Like if you have ever had any like questions or misunderstandings about what actually constitutes the Middle Ages and what's important about it and what isn't, Dan's book is just phenomenal. And his first novel, Essex Dogs, which is about a platoon of soldiers during the Hundred Years' War, comes out later this year. You should absolutely look it up. I've read a chapter. It's just phenomenal. I'm basically Starstruck that he's here. Dan, welcome. Thank you so much for being here.

Oh, I'm Starstruck as well. So conversation's going to be stilted. For listeners who maybe recognize your voice, you are also on a number of Netflix programs. Do you want to numerate which ones those are? Well, there's a series called Secrets of Great British Castles. We made two series of it, seasons of it, I guess you'd call it, back in like 2015-16. And they were great. Each episode, I'd go to a castle and tell some stories and wander around and look like quite sort of earnest at times and other times jocular.

and like wave my hands in a TV presenter style. And do you know what? It was like super fun to make. And they've lived on Netflix for some years now in, I believe, like 40 territories. So in really improbable places, I'm like the castle guy. We're going to be going into depth talking about the Middle Ages and Night of the Crusade. But tell us a bit about your background. How did you become a historian?

Well, I had a really good history teacher in school. And that sounds kind of banal, I guess, but it tends to be make or break. I think history is a subject where charismatic teachers can get someone interested in history for life, and the opposite is also true. For no reason other than I liked my history teacher and did okay in history at school, I went to study history at Cambridge and then specialised in the Middle Ages there. And I would love to say that I'd have this burning desire to be a medievalist, but really, the day I had to fill in my form detailing, this is June 1999.

that's how old I am. I bet you weren't born then. Just barely. Just barely. Okay. So while you were saying, sort of go-go-gagga, I was filling in a form

that said what I wanted to study when I went to Cambridge, because Cambridge gives you enormous freedom to study what you want within the history, history tribus, which is great. And I didn't take it very seriously, which is sort of the story of my life in a way.

And I asked my teacher, hey, what should I study? And he went, I don't know, medieval. Yeah, that'll do. So I tick the box. And then some months later, October 99, I went, to university and I was presented with like a bunch of medieval history to study.

But I studied under Helen Castor, who's one of the greatest. She's the OG, really. And so she taught me pretty much everything I know about the Middle Ages. And she was such a, again, you know, the story is of phenomenal teachers. I was taught by her. I was taught to write by David Starkey, Judea historian. And those two people were highly influential. Helen on getting me hooked on the Middle Ages and David on.

just teaching me how to write the joy of narrative writing and of argumentative essay writing and a public performance. So that was kind of my background. And then I did a lot of journalism. I wrote a newspaper column after university for 10 years. And I suppose that journalistic style fed somewhat into the narrative history writing style I've developed. And once I started writing books, I started getting TV work as well. And here I am. You're looking at it, listening to it. Here he is. When you're starting a new book now that you're 11 or 12 in, as you said, what's your process like when you have an idea and then what's your research process like? How long does it take you? I guess I've got like a pool of ideas at any one time that I know one of them is going to develop.

And I'm usually relatively certain about what I'm going to be doing for like the next two or three books. Well, that's the way it is now anyway. the very first, the sort of primordial pool of idea forming is just like thoughts kind of ambiently buzzing around my head as I go about my day-to-day business, usually while I'm working on something else. And then the time will come when I've actually got to start writing a book. I tend to write a book a year, not a big book every year, but I tend to have a big book one year and then a different project the next year and I alternate like that. So I'm extremely architectural as a writer. So the first phase of any book, work that I do involves no sitting at my laptop typing at all, not really very much reading, just a lot of thinking around the subject and trying to build a framework of how I would

envisage a book. So Powers and Thrones, which is my most recent nonfiction book, well, the subject matter was a history of the Middle Ages. And so all I really had by way of a brief from my publisher was we start with the sack of Rome 410 and go to the sack of Rome 1527, and then it's like fill your boots. So, okay, well, I've got two bookends, but that's I'm thinking, well, how do we create this? Thematically, then, I approached that idea. I thought, what's important in a history of the Middle Ages that will talk to a 21st century audience, because, of course, these history is the business of communicating across the years.

So I came up with a list of five themes, I thought were germane, both to the subject matter and to the audience. And then I started, like, breaking it down. I have weird and it's fairly arbitrary numerical obsessions. So with Powers and Thrones, I was absolutely certain it had to be 16 chapters, four parts for, I mean, there's no real reason why I just decided at some point when I was doing Crusade. Perfect Square.

Yeah, I mean, it probably makes, you could, okay, you could rationalize it, you could post-rationalize it, but I can't tell you that that's how it feels at the time. When I was doing Crusaders, I was like, this book is 27 chapters, three lots of nine. I don't know why. The story felt like, you get a feel for it after a while. You just feel you know what the shape of a story is. you can chuck all of that out the window when it comes to fiction. I've just written, as you've

kindly pointed out, a novel, and that was a completely different matter. You're much more adept at that, so I should ask you the questions, really. No, absolutely not. I feel like I'm already learning. I have no idea how many chapters my next book is going to be. I'm so behind. Are you going to be writing fiction or non-fiction?

Both. I have both in the can right now. I have no idea how many chapters either is. This is maybe why I'm struggling. Well, do you know what? A few years ago, I had dinner with George R.R. Martin, who created Game of Thrones. And George, and I interviewed him in front of a big audience, and then we had dinner afterwards. And George said something that really stuck in my mind.

He said there's two types of writer. He said, you've got architects and gardeners. And he said, the architect plans everything very meticulously and then starts to build. And I thought, that's the type of writer I am. And it's true, in nonfiction, that is the type of writer I am. And he said, the gardener just plants a seed and lets it grow. Now, he spoke much more favorably about the gardener, so that's the type of writer he is, and I thought I could never be that writer.

Okay, so when I sat down to write Essex Dogs, which is the novel that sat later this year, I was like, well, here comes an architect writing a novel. I better plan the hell out of this. And I sat and I planned, and I tried to have it all in its shapes and forms where I started, and I sat there, and for the first time in my life, I looked at a blank page, and I thought, I don't know what to do with this. and I realized that the thing to do, and this is, everyone's process is completely different.

So this may resonate with you, it may resonate with your listeners, it may not. You may think, what a load of nonsense. But my process now is to do some yoga and then to just sort of lie about with my feet on that sofa at the back of my office,

to just sort of lie there. There was like this JZ trailer for one of his albums once, it was from Magna Carta Holy Grail, There's a bit of Jay-Z in the studio talking to him. Magnacolah. Did that speak to you? Okay, yeah, there's always going to be a medieval film. And he talks a little bit in that video to Rick Rubin,

the legendary rock and sometime hip-hop producer. And Rick Rubin, in that video, is the comfiest-looking man I've ever seen. He's just lying, stroking his big long beard on a sofa. While all the other producers were kind of uptight and sitting there, Rick Rubin's just like flying back like this. And so I call it the Rick Rubin pose. I've got to get into before I'm in any position to write fiction. And once I'm in the Rick Rubin's,

room in pose, and you're like almost half asleep, like in communion with your dream state, then and only then am I ready to write? It looks pretty different. I like to do a lot of brainstorming in bed, horizontal before I go to sleep. Do you? Where I'll like turn off the light and it'll be like 10 o'clock and my fiance will think I'm like going to bed. He'll be like, okay, well, you're asleep. And I'm like, I'm not asleep. I'm working. It's all part of the process. Sometimes you just need to let the ideas come. You've got to be in that state. And it's about, you know, this is going to sound super woo-woo.

But I really think there's a different mental frequency, maybe even a different part of your brain at play, writing fiction and non-fiction. Which is weird because the trick I've always tried to pull in non-fiction is to make it feel like fiction. But that said, a lot of what I've drawn on in writing non-fiction does not come from novels. It comes from screenwriting. It's all screenwriting technique that sits under my history books. So that's very structural. I'm interested in George R. Martin particularly because he seems very inspired by history. Do you know for a fact if he's read The R. R. I don't think he has. So I did a thing for the season five DVD of Thrones, which was like the real history. It's a pretty good documentary, actually.

There's me and Kelly DeVries and a couple other historians and George. And the HBO people, when I went to New York to shoot that, were like, oh, George is just your greatest fan. Dan is Santa Fe. He's got your books on his desk. And I really believed that at the time. And then in retrospect, I think they were just flattering me. Well, look, he was writing about Game of Thrones when I wasn't far off Gougu Gaga baby. So I was a long way from having written Waters of the Roses at that point. Well, back to the Middle Ages, I admit it's a period. I mean, it's such an intimidating period. It's one that I never really felt like I've gotten a handle on. to listeners who maybe don't know, what actually constitutes the Middle Ages? And why is it called the Dark Ages, I would argue, and I think you would argue incorrectly. Maybe the best place to go to answer that is the 16th century, which is the end of the Middle Ages.

And that's sort of where we first start hearing the term, the Middle Age, if not the Middle Ages. So in 1563, I think, maybe four, John Fox, the great Protestant, writer, writes his book of martyrs, Axe Monuments, it's most more proper title. It's called Fox's Book of Martyrs. And it's an ecclesiastical history, basically, leaning into the subject of martyrdom, and particularly of the Protestant martyrs. Fox, in the course of Axe Monuments, tries to, like, salami slice up history. And he says, it's not salami slicing because it's really big chunks. He says, there's three ages in history. He says, there's the primitive. age, by which he means if really pagan Rome and everything preceding, and in Christian ecclesiastical

terms, that's sort of poor or persecuted Christians, hiding from Romans and catacombs. And Fox says, and there's our present age, you know, just as we think of ourselves now as being differentiated by being alive, or, you know, we are quite a quote modern. So Fox thought about his own time in the 1560s. And he said that, well, between these two bits, that's the terribly enlightened post-Reformation 16th century and the pagan classical world, there's like the middle age. He says the middle age. And it's like, it's just this sort of lump in the middle. Now, of course, if we define that as I have slightly more tightly as being Sacherone 410 to Sackeroom 1527, we're still talking about 1,100 some years. That's a big chunk of recorded human history.

And why is it known to the Dark Ages? Usually it's the early Middle Ages that defines the Dark Ages. So everything up to about from 500 through 900, with some very, very slight justification in that the written record tends to be much, much, much, much patchier in Western Europe. Certainly at that time, there is a sense, if you read the history, again, of Western Europe, that there's a retreat in the Christian world from the scientific learning of the ancient world, and that seems anti-progressive to many people. And there's just a sort of sense that it's already difficult and far away and no one wants to have very much to do with it.

It's gross. I mean, why would you, how would you like get dirty in the Middle Ages, which can be pretty intimidating and weird, when far pretty a bit of history to look at, you know, the sort of glories of Republican Rome or the great scientific advances, brackets minus dreadful imperialism of the 19th century. You know, these things are probably more attractive to most sane people.

terribly unattractive to me as subjects to study when I was growing up. I don't really know why. Less mud. Less mud. Well, let's flip it around to say what's attractive about the middle age. The middle ages is inherently, and although this is, I'm just saying this because we look at it through the prism of the Victorian age, which created this reputation, it is sort of inherently romantic. I mean, I realize all the problems with that statement. I'm not stupid. But be that as it may, we do happen to live after the 19th century, and we are still stuck with many of the preconceptions of the 19th century and our general worldview, the middle ages does seem romantic.

Or it seems romantic to a child who wants to study things. It's got knights and it's got princesses and he's got castles and it's got daring do and everyone goes about on a horse. Tell me that's not a world that it seems on the surface of things attractive to you. Perfect segue, because I would love to talk to you about the historical basis of Arthurian legend. I feel like I was one of those children who grew up in, you know, Chicago reading Arthurian legend and thinking like, oh, this is, this is magical. This is purely fictitious.

These are fairy tales. And of course, you get older and you discover that there's been, you know, historical figures who have been proposed as the real King Arthur probably didn't look like we imagine in story books. Yeah, I think there are certain figures from the Middle Ages. Arthur is one of them. Robin Hood's is another. They're kind of perfect bridges for getting people into the Middle Ages,

because there's a huge volume of fiction about them, which has in itself a nearly a thousand-year history, in the case of Arthur, at any rate. And there is the tantalizing prospect that some of this might actually be true. Now, I have read, so you don't have to, the many, many books which go looking for a real historical basis for King Arthur, for Merlin, for Lancelot, for Lanselaar,

for Percival, for whatever, whatever, for Camelot. And, you know, it doesn't take very long immersed in that early medieval. medieval literature, earnest as it is, to say, well, it's very clear what's going on here. There is nobody in history who meaningfully resembles the author we know from fiction. So really, what are we looking for? Well, are we looking for a person whose example was the original basis for the very first Arthurian stories? And I've concluded, I think, over the years that even that is really a sort of misapprehension of the problem. These stories were not to create. by and large in the 12th century from, you know,

Cretin de Troix onwards. It's like saying, well, no, wait, who was the real Iron Man? Who was this real Spider-Man you speak of? Like, you know you haven't really understood what's going on here. The primary purpose of storytelling was not to elaborate on the real deeds of a known historical figure. It was just to kind of tell a story. It gets kind of asked backwards to go looking for the real Arthur.

However, like I say, the initial prospect that there might be a real, a real King Arthur, was this a real person, is sexy enough to get people into the middle ages. The same for Robin Hood. The same for Robin Hood. I suppose the question is, when did the fictional accounts begin? Ah, no, that's a much more interesting and better question. Because, so the fiction, the real kind of, the cradle of Arthurianna, if you like, is the 12th, early 12th century. Cretting de Trois, Percival, Wolframvon, Eschenbach, Percival.

is it flourishing Jeffrey of Monmouth to an extent in the history of the Kings of Britain? I have to already interrupt and say, I'm already furious at how well you pronounce those French names, because as any listener to this podcast knows, it's absolutely impossible to me. And here you come in just effortlessly dropping all of those French names, teaching listeners that it is possible. Well, I have been in Morocco and France for the last two weeks. I mean, my French is pretty horrible. Like, if you'd see me in France, struggling my...

I had to negotiate buying an umbrella in a shop in en bois the other day. And it was a very tortuous conversation I went through trying to buy this umbrella and a pair of nail clifers, may I add. And there was a problem with the card machine. And I got to like, I got so far with this conversation like hacking my way in French. And then just like, I was just hit my limit. And I was like, excuse me, my memory. And she went, oh, yeah, I'm American. And I was like dumbfounded.

And I thought, was my French really so good that I tricked you? You? No, you were just being weirdly polite for an American. And anyway, put all that aside. Let's go back to the early 12th century. This is the cradle of Arthurianna. One, what's the context for all of these stories suddenly like flourishing and becoming, you know, I've used the analogy already, but like the Marvel movies of their day. You know, this end, this sort of open world where stories can be retold and characters and pitch up in each other's stories and all that. It's the high point of sort of nightly chivalry in a way. The concept of the knight, that is the heavy cavalry, the warrior on mounted on horseback,

armed with sword and lance, that had sort of come into European military and political society from the early 10th century. By the mid-11th century, if we think, you know, we're talking about 1066 Norman invasion of England. Even then, knights are still, it's still a work in progress. If you can think of the Beotapestry, the horse, the mounted warriors there still have spears in their hands rather than couch lances, which is the sort of, you know, the essence of knightly combat. So it takes a long time for, firstly, what is the essence of a knight on horseback as a military entity? That takes a while to develop technologically and strategically. What takes even longer to develop is this kind of caste mentality and common social code among those

warriors, which we call knighthood a set of principles and beliefs and case of conduct and worldviews and even if we want to be pretentious and memes. That takes a little bit longer to develop. But by the early 12th century, you know, the aftermath of the First Crusade, really even the sort of, you know, the second crusades coming around the way, knights are in business. And knighthood has really become bound into noble culture and aristocratic culture in Western Europe. And part of the consequence, of a caste mentality or part of what a reliable historical features of a cast mentality or a group culture of that sort is that you start to have origin stories, you start to have fables of

knighthood and these imaginary deeds of knights from a past that's just over the horizon. You know, we can't quite grasp who these people really were, but we know they lived in a great time when the land was populated by giants and scary beasts and they did heroic deeds, and we the knights of today should try and emulate them. So that's what's going on in the early 12th century. on a role and along with it come these wonderful stories. Well, and once that's established, once knighthood has its own literature, really interesting things start to happen. So people grow up listening to, yeah, primarily listening to these, you know,

these stories of Arthur and the Knights of the Roundtable and of chivalry. A good example would be William Marshall, who you've probably talked about before, we can talk about it into more detail if you want. Men like this grow up hearing these stories, then start to try to absorb, these ideas within the Arthurian legends into their own behaviour and almost the tropes of fiction start to inform the realities of warfare and then William Marshall's case, the deeds of these real people are then written up. So you have this sort of pop will eat itself thing going on where knighthood just becomes such a self-referential phenomenon that's full of stories being told

of generation to generation and people growing up feeling they are both existing in the real world and existing in this kind of alternate fantasy reality that goes along with their profession. Who is William Marshall? What is the Cliff Notes version of that story? So William Marshall, by his own estimation, or certainly the estimation of his sons and friends who commissioned his biography, the history of William Marshall in the early 13th century, 1219, A massively long, old French verse account of the Marshall's life, idealised somewhat. But Marshall was a man of the late 12th and early 13th century, who was one of the younger sons of a knight called John Marshall, who was fighting in the 1130s in the anarchy between

Stephen and Matilda, the English Civil War for the throne between rival descendants of King Henry I, both grandchildren William Conquer. Marshall was five years old during that war and his first encounter with warfare, according to the history of William Marshall, was his father was holding a castle against King Stephen, one of the belligerents in the anarchy in that civil war. And King Stephen had hold of young William because he was being held as a sort of hostage for honourable behaviour. And Stephen's men put young William in the bucket of a treboshae, one of those giant siege catapults and said, Oi, John, we're going to, We're going to hurl your kid at this castle wall and his prospects of not being, you know, catch up after he finished, I paraphrase. And John Marshall said, do it you please. I've got loads of kids, mate.

This is a classic story we see from tale telling. But what does young William Marshall do? Well, he's so naive and kind of charming. He charms King Stephen and makes him laugh, which is Dana a key skill in life, which I know you possess. So he charms King Stephen to such an extent that Stephen goes, oh, no, we can't reduce this poor child to catch up. Let's let him hang around with me for a bit. And that's the start of young William Marshall's career in royal service.

And he goes on to be raised as a knight at the family of one of the Marshall, the friends of one the Marshall family in France. He then enters the service of the Plantagenet, the early Plantagenet. So at various times in his career, he rides in tournaments with Henry the Young King, that's the eldest son and putative successor of Henry II, the first Plantagenet King. He serves Henry the Young King, he serves Henry the Second, he serves Eleanor of Aquitaine, he serves Richard the Lionheart, he serves King John, and eventually serves John's son, Henry the Third. He is the man who's sort of responsible for saving the Plantagenet Crown so that Henry III can wear it when King John's at war with both the French and his own barons.

So Marshall's career is a really, really good way to look at the first two to three generations of the Plantagenet's, and the history of William Marshall is one of, of our most entertaining and important sources for that time. You know, we're talking here temporarily between the 1150s and the 1210s. Marshall's biography is brilliant because he's such a charismatic and entertaining character. You know, his central moral precept is loyalty. And loyalty is what his entire story over these tens of thousands of old French verse is supposed to make us meditate upon.

He gets in all sorts of entertaining scrapes. He's, you know, he is a very, very talented knight, you know, and typical of knights in many ways, as a young man, as I said, he rides on the tournament circuit and this, you know, being on a tournament team and being a well-known tournamenter was a very good way to make money, connections and prestige in a world in which those values were highly regarded by polities in general. So Marshall's very talented tournament, father. He's just, he's got the ability to get on with people. And he's, yeah, he has a great. military skill set at a time when the business of politics is largely war. He goes on Crusade, on Third Crusade, or that that weirdly is not really mentioned. Actually, he doesn't go on the Third

Crusade, I'm sorry. He goes to the Holy Land around the time of the Third Crusade, probably not on the Third Crusade. But that's a weird little sort of gap in his history. And anyway, you know, so look, we get to see all the Plantation at Sue Marshall's eyes. And then his biography, as I've already said, is written up in a, it's not Arthuriana, but it's a sort of new version of Arthurian. it's like saying, hey, here's another epic sort of romantic poem about the deeds of the night. And you guess what, this one is absolutely true. I mean, it's a fantastic read. You know, when you mention the jousting sort of circuit of that time,

in your book, you sort of trace the history of jousting up until the festival joustings of, like, you know, King Henry the 8th, which I think modern people most often associate, like, that's what jousting is. It's sort of like just for fun, it's sort of celebratory. What were those early jousting circuits like, you know, a few hundred years before that? So when we say jousting, that's immediately going to bring to mind your listeners, I'm sure, Heath Ledger in a knight's tale, right? It's like, you know, we will rock you and they're in the lists and they sort of, they riot at each other and then they bash their lances into the shields and someone falls off or doesn't.

Okay. 15th, 16th century? Absolutely. That's tournament. It's fighting in front of an audience. It's a bit like MMA or boxing. It's just organized violence in quite a contained environment with some sense of an ethical code and some rules. Unless you're Henry II of France.

Right, yes. Well, all bets are off at that point. I mean, all bets are off in France in general. Go way back to where we're talking about William and Marshall in the 12th century. Tournaments look absolutely nothing like that and quite in many times, at many times and in many times and in many places they're actually illegal because they're just so dangerous. The tournament at that point is conducted over a very large open space which could stretch dozens of miles in either direction, maybe even scores of miles in either direction. Teams turn up and the name of the game is over

the course of several days to ride one another down, not kill one another. That was very bad form, but to fight at about sort of 80% capacity and capture one another. And once you've captured somebody, then they would have to buy back from you, their liberty, their horses, and their armour, which were the three things, which were the most important to a knight. And they could be quite violent, quite rough. They obviously attracted large crowds of hangers-on, ranging from well-to-do supporters, well-wishers and spectators,

through to, you know, the hangers on that would have always accompanied any festivities or festivals, sort of dealers and spivs and drunkards and thieves and the usual crowd, the people you find me hanging out with. I guess what's the sport itself like? I guess you've got to be quite rich to take part in it. So it's a little bit like Formula One motor racing, but with the casual violence of mixed martial arts, yes, of rugby or American football, you know, you need horsemanship. So it's a bit like polo. I suppose the horsemanship plus wealth makes a little bit like the polo circuit, but with the violence and danger of Formula One and rugby.

It must have been great fun, I think. Enormous fun. And if you got involved in this, you know, if you could get a start, if you get on a team and you were any good, you could really make quite a lot of money because you could capture people, your own money, ransoming their gear back. Or you could lose your shirt as well. This happens to William Marshall.

You know, he's early on in his tournament career. He gets a bit cocky and then he's captured and he loses pretty much everything. And at that point, you're relying on your team. sponsor or captain, you know, let's say it's Eleanor of Akritaine or Henry the Young King, to bail you out or you're in bother. And Marshall at various times ends up a prisoner for quite a while. There's a great story in his biography where he's a prisoner and he's been injured in one of these tournaments.

I think he's had a, I think he's had a lance through his leg. And he's got a very painful wound in his leg and it's sort of bandages stuffed in it and it's dressed. He's got to be really careful because it's a serious wound. And he's being sort of taken around, oh, sorry boring by whoever's captured. him. I can't remember that. And one night, the people have captured him, having this competition of who can throw this giant stone the furthest. It's very good. It's good boys stuff. There wasn't HBO. They had to entertain themselves somehow. Exactly. You know, forget

Netflix and chill. It's chuck a massive stone and chill or not. And so they're chucking a massive stone about. And Marshall, he can't, like, he's, he just can't sit there and watch. He's like, come on, guys, give me a go. I don't think you want to go. I don't think you want to play at this. Give me a go. Pass me the stone. Really? Pass me the stone. So he gets the stone, of course, because he has to win. He just laughs at it. He throws it so hard that all the stitches and the band just burst out of his leg and he's worse off afterwards than he ever was before. But that's told us a relatively comical story in the history of William Marshall, which is like his desire, his knightly prowess occasionally got the

better of him. Pride. Pride comes before a burst leg, as they say. Yeah, that's what they say. One other thing I'm interested in speaking to you about, obviously, because you're the expert on English and British castles, the idea of the medieval castle, when does that really come about? I think we're picturing, like, you know, like a cartoon castle of, like, the stone turrets

and archers through the slits. I think I know what you're talking about. You know, like, think about the cartoon. Castle, which surely even if King Arthur was, you know, quote unquote real, that wouldn't have existed in the 5th century. But when do we get the classic stone castle? Well, yeah, the story of the castle is a story of several important phases of evolution. So beginning really around the turn of the first millennium, 10th century, I suppose, you

start to see, particularly with the Normans, a lot of the drivers of a lot of medieval history that is still familiar to us today, often tend to be the Normans, this group of sort of Viking descended, frankified, roughnecks from Normandy, which is the little bit to the west of Paris, centered on Ruong in modern France. So the Normans are great castle builders, and during the 10th, 11th century, you start to see a typical Norman castle, which would be a, we'll call a Mott and Bailey castle. So you're going to have a keep, which is a stronghold, usually built on a sort of of artificial or natural hill and then round it an enclosure with other wooden palisades or, you know, even stone walls in some instances. And within that's the Bailey. So that's the sort

of basic form of a castle. And it serves pretty well, for example, during the Norman invasion, after the Norman invasion of England, 1066, William the Conqueror comes over and builds castles absolutely everywhere. And of this sort, you know, you throw them up pretty quick. What are they for? Well, they're really garrisons. This is where Norman knights are, are stationed and they have a sort of a radial circle of a day's ride, that castle can then control the land around it because you can send knights out from it to wherever you choose. But the heyday of the castle of the sort that you're talking about is somewhat later. So in British terms, probably the greatest castle builder is Edward I, Edward Longshanks, the hammer of the Scots. So Edward is king at the

turn of the 12th into the 13th century. He is a crusader, he's son of the not enormously successful Henry III, and therefore a grandson of Bad King John, very, very talented military general commander and carries out in the British Isles as sort of an Arthurian-inspired attempt to conquer Wales and Scotland and add them formally and permanently to the Kingdom of England. Prior to Eddard of the First Rain, the main focus of sort of territorial expansion or retrenchment or defence from England had been France, had been to the east, so holding on to Gascany, but are also trying to get back the bits that's been lost by King John, enjou, main, terrain, nomadourne, whatever, whatever.

All that's sort of finished by Edward I, with the First Rain. England still has Gascany, which is in south-west, around, resented around the city of Bordeaux. But really, the job of conquering any more of France by that stage. is just too expensive and too difficult. So Edward starts to, I mean, somewhat inspired by the legends of Arthur, who'd be a king of the Britons and of the English, starts to look to conquer into Wales and Scotland. And in Wales, it launches this enormous series of campaigns,

particularly to Northern Wales, Snowdonia, which is the very mountainous bit of north-west Wales. Typically the heartlands of the native Welsh kings, extremely inhospitable terrain, very difficult to conquer, but Edward decides to go and conquer it. So 1270s, 1280s, 1290s, Edward sends in enormous armies with enormous cores of engineers

to cut these super highways into Northern Wales, conquer the land, get rid of the native princes and kings, and builds these vast, vast stone castles at unbelievable expense into the mountain sides of northern. Wales. One of the most famous and one we featured on Secrets of Great British Castles

is Canavan, which is right up in the northwest tip of Wales, not just across the men I straight from Angles Sea, which is the big island of northward, top of northwest Wales. And Canavan Castle is still an incredible, incredible place to visit. Lots of these places were never quite finished, but they were all, were almost all, this is an architectural brainchild or an engineering brainchild of a castle builder called Master James of St. George, who was just, I mean, the greatest castle builder of his day. And they look nothing like a Norman castle. They are these sort of often two sets of concentric walls. In the case of Canavan, these walls are built in alternating horizontal bands of stone, which is supposed to resemble the walls of Constantinople. You've got palatial apartments.

You've got these very, very large inner, whether they're not courtyards, I suppose, is they call them Baileys, where hundreds of people could congregate. They often have small towns erected around them, you know, new towns built to host a population to supply the needs of garrison in the castle. They're the fairy tale castles. And they're built all over North Wales during the time of Edward I. And the expense is truly, truly, truly phenomenal. They don't actually serve for a very long time as effective military outposts. Because the conquest of Wales is sort of, you know, is almost completed under Edward I mean, there are further conflicts in the 15th century.

Henry 4th has to find Wales. But really, the job is sort of done. And the castles, I think, quite quickly passed from having primarily a military. function to primarily an intimidatory function. They're sitting there as a sort of a deliberately painful reminder of the might of the English crown and they are symbols of Congress. These days, they would be torn down and thrown down and thrown in the sea because they would be triggering and they would be very offensive. In fact, that might well happen. I'm sure somebody will come along in Wales soon and say these are terrible symbols of colonialism or we need to chuck them all in the

see. But in terms of intimidation, the Tower of London, I mean, maybe the most famous castle in England, would have obviously served the same purpose when William the Conquer comes in, builds this massive castle in the middle of London. Yeah, that's right. I mean, the White Tower, the original bit of the Tower of London, very much was designed to overhaul Londoners. But again, well, maybe it's a slightly different story with the Tower of London, because it's soon, there's not much need for a generation after William. The Conquerque, There's really not much need to have a castle in London to overaw the Londoners. I mean, the relationship between London and the Crown is only occasionally one of a sort of military antagonism in the rest of the English Middle Ages.

The Tower of London is a great example of a castle that quickly passes to have a sort of more palatial administrative role. They're making coins in the Tower of London. It becomes a prison. It becomes a menagerie. You know, this is where under Henry III, I think you have a polar bear that swims in the Thames every day that's kept in the Tower of London. It has a little leash and goes out and catches its fish in the Thames. And there are at various times elephants and lions. It's only under the first Duke of Wellington 19th century that London Zoo moves out of the Tower of London. So it's a very odd castle of Tower of London.

It's a wonderful one and rightly the most famous. But if you think about it in 15th, 16th century history, what is it the most famous? as being used for, it's a prison. It's where the prince is in the tower go. It's where, I know you've done an episode on that, it's where Anne Berlin is executed. That becomes its more important function. Yeah, I think people probably associate it with the tutors more than William the Conqueror now. Yeah, I think so. I think so. I mean, but all of these, like all of these castles, there are certain points in history where castles are very important for different reasons. If we look at the 11th century, the Norman Conquest 1060s through a couple of generations,

yes, castles are there for colonising and subduing the English and there are a projection of Norman power from the other side of the English Channel into England itself. And then you have this period in the, what we're just talking about in the 13th century, we're under Edward I. There's this kind of revival of castle building, mainly on the places that the English are trying to conquer within Britain. And then in the Tudor era, we start to see castles perform a different function again. You know, they are their palaces, they're administrative, their prisons. And then the sort of final great throw of castle use in England is in the Civil War in the 17th century, after which,

that's why many of the castles in England are in ruins, because they were slighted by Cromwell's side in the Civil War. So they couldn't be used as royal fortifications thereafter. And that's why so many castles in England are these rather glamorous. ruins, in the same way that so many, or what we can see of so many monasteries in England, are these haunting Gothic ruins, because they were left that way deliberately after the Reformation under Henry VIII. So there are very few castles which don't just become private, stately homes, or just ruins after the 17th century. There's one very interesting exception, which is Dover Castle on the south coast, and that still had a military function in the Second World War,

It was where, if you've seen the film Dunkirk with Mark Ryland's very nobly sort of chug-chug-chug-chug-chug-chug-chug-chug-chug-chuging across the channel in his little ship, that the command centre for Duncirk was Dover Castle. In fact, if you visit Dover Castle when you're in England, you can go down and it has a military, or quasi-military function after that because there are nuclear bunkers underneath cliffs underneath Dover Castle, which were intended, and may God forbid still be intended for use as a regional command centre for the south-east of England in the event of, World War III fought with nuclear weapons. It's pretty weird down there. But that's a very unusual, it's kind of one of my favorite castles in a way, because it's so unusual, that it retains a serious purpose for a thousand years, almost.

I remember when I was, you know, much younger, the first time I went to Edinburgh, I went to Edinburgh Castle. I was so astonished because up until that point, my understanding of castles was like Disney, Neuswunstein castles, you know, the fairy tale castles that are sort of the,

the castle equivalent of the Arthurian legends, and the Edinburgh castle, which is very much like a small town and feels like a military garrison. Yeah, Edward. Oh, God, Edinburgh. I mean, Edinburgh Castle is one of the most wonderful places in the whole of the UK. I don't need to mansplain Edinburgh to you who's written a novel set at Edinburgh, and a very brilliant one, by the way. That, too, is quite unusual in that part of its function as a royal palace is still to have this ceremonial military thing and with the tattoo and with the bang of the gun. And that's part of its charm, I suppose. But part of its charm is also, like many of the best castles, it's the glamour of its location, you know, on that craggy volcanic precipice, I suppose, overlooking one of the most

beautiful cities in northern Europe. It's almost unbelievably charming, isn't it? Wonderful place. Well, I feel like I've kept you for a long time, but before I let you go, the middle age, the Middle Ages, which spans a thousand years, is sort of an intimidating chunk, I think, for amateurs to look at. Is there a specific period that you think is your favorite? Well, I mean, like with my children, I have a different favorite, depending on which day you ask me, but I'm back into the 14th century at the moment, which was kind of where it began. My first book was about the Peasant Revolt of 1381, and the Peasant's World of 1381, is a sort of almost like a culminating event.

It's what we now call a populist rebellion or rising that comes near the end of a century where there's been famine followed by animal moraine, followed by the Black Death, pandemic pestilence, followed by war, the Hundred Years' War. And then you get that populist rebellion. And so the 14th century was where I started, and it's where I've gone back to. So the novel Essex Dogs, you mentioned, is set in 1346. It's towards the beginning of the Hundred Years' War.

and for one reason or another, I've just been on a 14th century tip. You know, it's not that cheerful a time. You know, you don't go to the 14th century for a good time, but it is incredibly dramatic, and you see in the 14th century really what feels like apocalypse coming. But you also see the beginnings of, you know, literature in the vernacular traditions that we recognized today, Chaucer or Boccaccio, these sort of father-like figures of the vernacular literature that became adopted by nation states. It's all there in the 14th century and the very, very early stirrings of the Renaissance, the early stirrings of religious protests that will

coalesce in the Reformation. It's the beginning of the end of the Middle Ages, and it's a time where for a lot of, well, a lot of people it was the end of days, but it did. It is a lot of the end of days, It's the closest century, maybe barring the early 20th century, though you've ever had to genuine apocalypse. That's interesting. Well, with that, I think that's an optimistic place to leave us. Dan, thank you so much for taking the time out. Everyone, you should absolutely read one, two, to three of all of Dan's 11 or 12 books.

Before the interview, I asked him how many books he had written, and he wasn't sure. There's always another one, isn't that? I've lost count. Thank you, Dana. It was so much fun talking to you. And everyone pre-order his novel Essex Dogs if you're interested in that romantic world of the 14th century. He's a brilliant writer. And remember, this is the 75th episode. And starting now, Noble Blood is going weekly.

So look for an episode every single Tuesday on your podcast app. Dan, thank you so much. Thanks, Dana. Congratulations, 75. Readers, Katie's finalists, publicists, we have an incredible. incredible new episode this week for you guys. We have our girl Hillary Duff in here, and we can't wait for you to hear this episode. They put on Lizzie McGuire at 2 a.m.

Video on Demand, this guy's... 2 a.m. Whatever time it is. Lizzie McGuire. And I'm like... A wild batch you were with. It was like a first, like, closet moment from me where I was like... You're like, I don't feel like she's hot,

like the rest of that. No, no, no. I was like, she's beautiful. But I'm appreciating her in a different way than these boys are. I'm not like... But listen to Los Cal Dristers on the IHart Radio app, Apple Podcast. or whatever you get your podcast. I'm Iris Palmer and my new podcast is called Against All Od

and that's exactly what the show is about, doing whatever it takes to be thoughts. Get ready to hear from some of your favorite entrepreneurs and entertainers as they share stories about defying expectations, overcoming barriers and breaking generational patterns. I'm talking to people like award-winning actress, producer, and director, Eva Langoria. I think I had like $200 in my savings account

and my mom goes, what are you going to do? And I was like, I'll figure it out. We got a one-bedroom apartment for like $400 a month and we all could not afford. Like, I was like, how am I going to make $100 a month? I'm opening up like I've never before. For those of you who think you know me from what you've seen on social media, get ready to see a whole new side of me. Listen to Against All Odds with Iris Palmer as part of the MyCultura podcast network,

available on the IHeartRadio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. If you are a founder or a freelancer or, the friend who always says, hey, you know what, what if I started that? This is for you. I'm telling you I had nothing to my name. I didn't know a single person in New York. And somehow I'm dressed by Oscar DeLorenta walking down that red carpet. This month, we sit down with entrepreneurs and creators who actually did it, who turned the scary leave into a business, a paycheck, and a life they are proud of. Direct center of our happiness or our regrets is whether or not we're taking action on the

things that matter to us. They're not selfish. They're so important. They have actually lead to our greatest contributions because when we're living fulfilled, we actually show up better everywhere. We lead better. We're better friends. We're better relationships and collaborators and all those things because we have passion about the things we're doing. If you're trying to build something of your own this year, join us in these conversations that will make you braver and smarter with your money. Listen to Dos Amigos as part of the My Cultura podcast network available on the IHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast.

Noble Blood is a production of IHeart Radio and Grimmin-Mild from Aaron Menke. Noble Blood is hosted by me, Danish Schwartz. Additional writing and researching done by Hannah Johnston, Hannah Zwick, Mira Hayward, Courtney Sender, and Lori Goodman. The show is produced by Rima L. Kali, with supervising producer Josh Thane and executive producers Aaron Manke, Alex Williams, and Matt Frederick. For more podcasts from IHeart Radio,

visit the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. Readers, Katie's finalists, publicists. We have an incredible new episode this week for you guys. We have our girl Hillary Duff in here, and we can't wait for you to hear this episode. They put on Lizzie McGuire at 2 a.m. Video on Demand. This guy's bobo-o-bub. 2 a.m. Whatever time it is, Lizzie McGuire. And I'm like, the paper you were with.

It was like a first, like, closet moment from me where I was like, I don't feel like she's hot, like the rest of that. No, no, no. I was like, she's beautiful. I'm appreciating her in a different way than these boys are. I'm not like, but listen to Los Coleristas on the Iheart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or whatever you get your podcast. Hello, gorgeous, it's Lala Kent. Host of Untraditionally Lala.

My days of filling up cups at Sir may be over, but I'm still loving life in the valley. Life on the other side of the hill is giving grown-up vibes, but over here on my podcast, Untraditionally Lala, I'm still that Lala you either love or love to hate. It's unruly. I'm afraid, it's Untraditionally Lala. Listen to Untraditionally Lala on the Iheart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your

podcast. Hi, I'm Iris Palmer, host of the Against All Odds podcast. Every week, I'm sitting down with exceptional people who have broken barriers even when the odds were stacked against them. Like chef Victor Villa of Vias Tacos. You know the taquero from the Bad Bunny halftime show? It was great. It was a big moment.

It was special. And I felt like I was really representing my family, you know, my brand, my city. I was representing all taqueros, not only of like, you know, the U.S., but of Mexico and beyond, all the taqueros of the world. Listen to Against All Odds on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. This is an IHeart podcast, guaranteed human.