Noble Blood - Napoleon's Coup Within a Coup

Episode Date: March 12, 2024

Was Napoleon a military dictator, or a man who did what was necessary in order to preserve a French republic that was crumbling? To discuss the coup in which Napoleon became "First Consul" of France, Dana is joined by Pascal Confraveaux from the French Embassy.Support Noble Blood:— Bonus episodes, stickers, and scripts on Patreon— Noble Blood merch— Order Dana's book, 'Anatomy: A Love Story' and its sequel 'Immortality: A Love Story'See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an I-heart podcast. Guaranteed Human. Hey, I'm Dr. Maya Shunker, a cognitive scientist and hosts of the podcast, a slight change of plans, a show about who we are and who we become when life makes other plans. I wish that I hadn't resisted for so long the need to change. We have to be willing to live with a kind of uncertainty that none of us likes. You can have opinions. You can have like a strong,

dance. And then there's your body having its own program. Listen to a slight change of plans on the IHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome to Noble Blood, a production of IHeart Radio and grim and mild from Aaron Manky. Listener discretion advised. It was in spring of 1802 that Ludwig von Beethoven realized he was beginning to go deaf. In an effort, to pull himself out of a depression, he left Vienna for a small village five miles to the north, to spend time in nature and see if he could find any musical inspiration. It was on a walk through the countryside that a melody popped into his head, a theme in E-flat major. Eventually, over a year, that theme transformed into a full symphony, Beethoven's third, titled E-Flauica, or

heroic. People far more knowledgeable about classical music than I am celebrate the symphony as groundbreaking, challenging, and brilliant, a landmark of Beethoven's career that I've seen described as the first romantic symphony, marking the end of the classical period. But it wasn't originally titled Eroyca. It had an earlier name, which Beethoven wrote himself on the symphony's title page as soon as the work was completed in early 1804. Symphonia in titillata Bonaparte. Symphony titled Bonaparte. Though Beethoven was German living in Austria, there was plenty about Napoleon he found inspiring. Napoleon was only a year older than Beethoven, and they had both come from families outside the nobility, and they had both risen in the world.

the ranks because of their ability. As a young man, Beethoven was inspired by the promise of the French Revolution. He read philosophy and celebrated the possibility of a truly enlightened state. But like so many others in Europe, he became disillusioned as he watched on and saw the bloody excesses of where the revolution ended up. To Beethoven, Napoleon was a striking and romantic figure, who had returned to France from his military victories abroad and was able to save the revolution from itself. From 1795 on, France was governed by a system known as the Directory, where there were five directors and two legislative bodies. But the government was chaotic and inefficient.

With the exception of Napoleon's victories abroad, France had suffered. a string of humiliating defeats. Trade routes were cut off, land was sacrificed, and inflation was beginning to escape the bounds of control. In 1799 there was a coup, ostensibly organized by one of the directors, a man popularly known as the Abbey C.S. C.S. knew that the delicate directory was unstable, threatened by royalists on the right and Jacobin on the left, and a new government would need to be established if the promises of the French Revolution were to be preserved in any form. And what better man was there to join him in that coup than the popular hero, Napoleon Bonaparte, the brilliant young general who was met in the

streets with cheers when he returned from Egypt. But Napoleon orchestrated something of a coup within a coup. After manipulating the legislative bodies of the directory to leave Paris, Napoleon brought in armed grenadiers to ensure that in the new government, where there were supposed to be three consuls, he, Napoleon, would be the first and most important consul. It was only called a coup, or coup within a coup,

in hindsight. At the time, many, including Beethoven, viewed Napoleon as a heroic figure, saving the French government from itself in order to uphold Republican ideologies. Napoleon as consul was a romantic figure out of classical antiquity, like a sage Roman consul of old. But then Beethoven got some bad news. In December 1804, five years after Napoleon became First Consul, and less than a year after Beethoven named his new symphony after him, Napoleon declared himself emperor. According to the most popular version of the story, Beethoven became enraged and shouted, quote,

So he is no more than a common mortal. Now he too will tread underfoot all the rights of men, and indulge only his ambition, now he will think himself superior to all men and become a tyrant. Beethoven scratched over the word symphony titled Bonaparte with so much force that his pen ripped through the paper. The symphony was renamed simply and vaguely heroic Eroyca. Napoleon remains one of the most popular

and famous historical figures in European history. Recently, he was the center of Ridley Scott's 2003 film starring Joaquin Phoenix. The French public had a fairly negative reaction to the film, which might have had something to do with how strange it must be for French speakers to see Napoleon, such an iconic French figure, speaking English with a full American accent.

But the French public's perspective on the real historical Napoleon is a little more complicated. Was Napoleon the hero that France needed at the time? A man who preserved the ideals of the revolution, encoding them into the Napoleonic Code, and giving the nation the order it so desperately needed? Or was Napoleon a military dictator who dismissed a constitution he swore to uphold? when it suited him in his quest for greater personal power. I'm Dana Schwartz, and this is Noble Blood. In order to explore Napoleon's modern-day reputation,

especially the way he's understood today in France, I'm thrilled to be talking about the coup of 18 Broomer, Napoleon's first major jump to power, with Pascal Confervovaux of the French Embassy in Washington, D.C. I am so thrilled to be here today talking to Pascal Confavo, who is the press counselor for the French embassy in Washington, D.C. to talk about Napoleon with me today. Pascal, thank you so much for joining me. Thank you, Dana, for having me. Napoleon obviously has such a long and fascinating life. I mean, I could do this entire podcast just about episodes from his life.

But we're going to focus a little bit on the coup. In English, we would say November 9th, but it's called the Coup. Two of 18 Brumere in French. Exactly. And thank you for inviting us. What caught our eyes and why we were happy to talk with you is that we're always happy when Americans like you and your audience are interested in French history and French figures. And we see that there is a big curiosity on Napoleon

and more broadly on the French Revolution. and the film of Ridges Scott, of course, embodies that very well. Yes. I mean, Napoleon is just one of the most fascinating figures in history. I thought the movie was fun, but obviously they took some historical liberties. Did you see it? I saw it. I watched it, of course, before talking to you. And, yeah, the least I can say that it created some debate in France and also, I guess, in the US. Yeah, I've heard that French people had very strong opinions on it.

A lot of persons were saying that it was less about Napoleon himself, that about Napoleon and Josephine, that it was about the love affair, and that movie. Some were advising to have a title that could be Napoleon and Josephine. That makes a lot of sense. I also thought it was, it's always a fun decision on a movie's part to give a character. Obviously, they're speaking English in the film, but Joaquin Phoenix just speaks English with no accent.

And I think for some, that was a little disconcerting. Yeah, and it's always, for a French-speaking audience, it's always interesting to see Napoleon speaks English indeed. Yeah. Well, let's fast forward a little bit to the coup that initially brought Napoleon to power. Obviously, before he became an emperor, after the French Revolution, Napoleon was a general and served the constitution after the French Revolution, the directory and won massive victories over in Egypt and returned to Paris a hero.

Can you speak a little bit about what the directory was like and what France was like when Napoleon returned from Egypt? Yes, we were better and there was also a lot of humility because I'm not speaking as a historian here, but more as a civil servant. And so I may not have all the little details. The date of 18th of Brumann and 19th Brumere, actually because the coup takes place on two days, is often taught at the end of the revolution in the French history. And Napoleon at that time was one of the youngest generals ever.

He was serving the Republic and was serving among the... Among them also a man called Bahas. And he was coming back from Egypt. It was the last military operation he did, which was an operation less military than also a discovery. He had worked with him a lot of scientists going to the pyramids. He had discovered the Pierre de Rosette, which was the one afterwards that allowed everyone to understand

what the hieroglyphs were meaning. In English, the Rosetta Stone. Thank you. And so he was coming with a great aura, and we see also in the film that he was winning, he won some battles against the Inglot in 1793, which also brought him a lot of fame. And in 1798, 1799, you had a kind of fatigue in France,

a fatigue of the wars because the revolution was also making was also a synonym of wars in France. A fatigue of for the economy also. And I think he could feel that that people

were willing to see as we say peace outside and order inside. And that's what he ran on in a way in 1799 when he was coming back from Egypt. One thing that I think is so interesting is Napoleon, you can obviously frame his actions in so many different ways.

One could frame what he did in overthrowing the Republic and the government of the directory as him trying to save the revolution. This government was so unpopular. The economic state in France was unsustainable. You could say that by claiming power, he was preserving, saving the government, saving the revolution. or you could present this idea that he was simply something of a military dictator. What do you think is more of the popular conception of Napoleon in France, as it's sort of taught today? It's exactly what you say. He was a master of communication also in that day. And he was also the one who wrote his own story, history, before the historians took them.

And so he was very good at managing the image he wanted people to have a film. And he has the two parts you're saying. He's at the same time, and the coup is embodying that and the empire afterwards is embodying that, that there are some lessons taken from the revolutions that will survive, the human rights, the equality, the end of the privileges, for instance, the church had or the nobility had. And so this will survive. And so he is in that aspect.

He is the heir of the revolution. He is the one that will put these results of the revolution in the long-term French political life. And at the same time, yeah, he creates a regime that has nothing to do with the republic, that at the beginning the consulate has the appearance of a republic, and then which will, in 1904, become after plebiscites, become an empire. Absolutely. One also interesting thing, I feel like as an American, I do feel like I have to voice our little cameo that unfortunately part of the problem of the runaway inflation in France and the challenges that the French Republic was facing economically was due to the fact that

after the American Revolution, the American government decided not to repay some of the loans the way they were previously contracted because that contract had been with the French King, who was obviously no longer in charge of the government. So we had a little cameo there. There are debates on that. I want to indulge in it. What is true is that the two revolutions are very linked, very much linked, in this part of our histories earlier, 1776, but with many French persons taking also a part

in it, of course Lafayette or Rochambe, but also the ideas are coming to France as well. and in 1789, a few years later, is our revolution that started with many things. Among them was also public finances. And so, yes, there is definitely a link between the two revolutions, and that's also why our two countries are so close, in a way. We often say all the best allies, but yes, indeed, at that time, your first ambassador to Paris is Benjamin Franklin, and he makes a crowd in Paris. Everyone loves him. He's very good at public diplomacy at that time.

Lafayette is a star in the U.S. I could even say that I think he's even more a star in the U.S. that he's in France, basically. He's more well-known here than in France. One more I find so fascinating whenever American figures pop up in French history. Talleyrand, who obviously is a massively important figure in French history, a man who survived regime change after regime change.

who initially, you know, helped Napoleon on his rise to power. Back during the Republic, Talleyrand actually had to resign as foreign minister because he was, one could say, you know, politely requesting or demanding a bribe of $250,000 from three American envoys. And American audiences might know one of the envoys happened to be the future, massive Supreme Court Justice John Marshall. And I just love realizing that two, totally disparate historical figures

that you would learn about in two different contexts actually interacted in that way. Yeah. And they learned lessons from each other. They interacted. Tanner-Han, as you were quoting him, it's another French figure less known than Napoleon.

And he plays in a way, kind of continuity in French diplomacy among different regimes, starting for the republic, through the consulates, or the empire. And then he plays also a role in the restoration. of the king.

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Listen to soccer moms on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Will Ferrell's Big Money Players and IHeart Podcasts presents Soccer Moms. So I'm Leanne. Yeah. This is my best friend, Janet. Hey. And we have been joined at the hips since high school. Absolutely.

Now a redacted amount of years later, we're still joined at the hip. Just a little bit bigger hips, wider. This is a podcast. We're recording it as we tailgate our youth soccer games in the back of my Honda Odyssey. with all the snacks and drinks. Sidebar. Why did you get hard seltzer instead of beer? They had a bogo.

Well, then you got it. Do you want a white color or something here? Just a second. Oh, what are y'all doing? Microphones? Are you making a rap album? Oh, I would. Come on.

Could you move? I would buy it. Go. Go. Go. It's like a hot knife through sponge cake. That sounds delicious. Oh, you're lucky.

I'm not a drug addict. You're lucky I'm not an alcoholic. You are. You are. I'm not a killer. I love this team. And I'm really. trying to be a figure in their lives that they can rely on.

Oh. Oh. Listen to soccer moms on the IHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm fascinated by Talley Rand. I remember reading that there was sort of a parody book or pamphlet that came out, ranking the weather veins of French politics, as in men who sort of changed their alliances. and Italy Rand was top of the list. Yeah, yeah.

And he has also a mixed image, I guess, in his legacy for that. I do always respect someone who is able to survive in politics the way he did. And he was going back to the coup, he was a major figure and ally of Napoleon. Just to set the scene, the governmental system was called the directory. There were two government bodies, the Council of Ancients and the 500. which was sort of the upper and lower legislative bodies. Napoleon, I think, recognized among with other politicians at the time that this government was not sustainable for the reasons we talked about,

and Napoleon was such a popular figure that if he was sort of the spearhead of the coup, it would be successful. And so he allied with a man known as Abysias, and again, if I'm almost humiliated to be attempting to do French pronunciation in front of you. But what I love is that Napoleon, even as these men were sort of building a coup around Napoleon's popularity, Napoleon was sort of planning a coup

within the coup to establish himself as the primary power. Exactly. And you see that also in the film. He said, yes, and the coup, he needed what we say is word. He needed a saber to operate, to operationalize what he was thinking. And so Bonaparte said yes.

and on the 18th of Brumere, everything happened as planned. Basically, they were resigning, the directors. So the executive branch was collectively reigning for the one who were among the coup and for the one who were not aware of the coup. They were a bit forced to resign or under custody. With a little either bribes or force. Exactly, like pressure. And Napoleon was created, the one who was in charge.

of the army protecting Paris. And the Council of the 500 that you were mentioning earlier was sent to St. Clu, which is a city next to not far from Paris, but it was a bit further from Paris to be more into a calm neighborhood. So 18th of Romero works quite well for the plan. It's more 19th of Romer, which is a bit trickier, but maybe you want to tell it now. Yeah, so step one goes according to plan. They're able to pressure this council to sort of get outside the city.

come to the suburbs, as it were, I think probably for a few reasons, you know, to get away from the military support that might undermine this coup. And I believe, if I'm correct, they were sort of able to convince the council to come out to the suburbs by saying that there was a Jacobin coup

that was happening because the Jacobin, the more extremist revolutionary branch had been ousted from government a few months earlier. They were able to sort of get the legislative body, out to the suburbs. And then when the legislative body realized that Napoleon walked into their chambers with a force

of military grenadiers, I think they all sort of collectively realized, oh, we weren't brought out here for our protection. Something really extreme is happening. And they welcome him. Welkin is not a good word, but they are very violent at him, of course. They expel him from the room. they say they treat him, they say that he's a dictator. It seems that for a moment,

Bonaparte is losing face in his good star. And then there is a trick of history where actually his brother, Lucian, is the head of the Council of the 500, and he's the one who has this stamina to delay the vote that was going by the 5. that was going to outlaw to outlaw Bonaparte, a bit like the same kind of votes that had outload Robespierre

a bit a few years earlier. And so at that time, when you were outloaded, it was also a little bit death at the same time. And he delayed the vote. And go take the guards to come back in the room. and expel, actually, a big part of this 500. And then they declare, with the one who stay and who are supportive, they declare the end of the directory.

And they give the executive power to three councils, C.S., Roger Duco, and Bonaparte. So this is the first part of the coup. Yeah. And just to interrupt and backtrack a little bit, that vote, when the Council of 500 were faced with Napoleon coming, in with soldiers and recognized that he was attempting to overthrow the constitution and they were about to declare him an outlaw. I'm so glad you brought up what happened to Robespierre because I find it so fascinating the contrast in how the two men responded. Robespierre attempted suicide.

I think actually the film depicted this quite accurately took a took a pistol, attempted suicide and failed and just just blew off his his jaw, which was a very grisly scene. But Napoleon with the of his brother was able to slip out, avoid the vote, and then actually use the anger of the legislative body to rally his troops. I think Napoleon's, the loyalty that he inspired in his troops was such a major drive in his ability to breach power, because as he came out, slightly worse for wear, literally, I think another thing the movie accurately portrayed was that the, the counsel kind of tried to physically attack him. And he was able to use how sort of bloodied and ripped up he was with his brother Lucian pointing at him and saying, look what they tried to do

to him, rally the troops to come back in within a show of force. And Lucien at that time is saying that these ones who are attacking Bonaparte are the real traitors and that they are working for England, which is, of course, the worst you can say at that time. even imagine, of course. Well, who else would want to betray the military hero, Napoleon? Exactly. And you see all these scenes in the film. One thing that I think is so interesting is obviously the idea of the coup was that there would be three consuls, as you mentioned. But Napoleon fairly quickly manipulated the Constitution so that he, as first counsel, would have much more power than the other two.

Exactly. That's what you call, I think, earlier the coup within the coup. Right. And, yeah, the three councils are not at the same level. And he will very swiftly consolidate his power, his grip, with the adoption of a new constitution, the constitution of the year eight. We are in the revolutionary still calendar at that time. And which gives him the authority to have the first draft of the law.

and also he gives him also the visibility. I think in all this, there is also a communication part, which is always very important at their time, and he will have the leader on the image and in the comms very quickly. And CES and Roger Likou are much less well-known, and I think he definitely worked for that. Yes. One scene that stuck with me from the movie,

that of course was pulled directly from history, because there are so many scenes where you're like, well, this is so cinematic. Surely they just invented this. But when Napoleon sort of stumbled out of the Council of 500 when they sort of attacked him, and Lucian was trying to rally the troops, Lucian grabbed a sword and said,

I will kill Napoleon myself if he's a traitor. And that, of course, inspired a lot of trust. And that, to me, also speaks to, I think, from the outside. So please correct me if I'm mistaken. about the French perspective. But I think Napoleon really was able to repair a sense of national pride and nationalism. After the revolution, France had lost a lot of territories. Military defeats sort of stripped them of the territories that they had won at the end of the 18th century, like 1796 and seven. They were cut off from German and Italian markets. The so-called second coalition was sort of

turning on France. And Napoleon, just as a figure, because he had come from these amazing military victories, because he was speaking so eloquently about the power of France and invoking these political symbols meant to evoke, you know, ancient Rome, I think they're, I mean, reading from the outside, it seems very inspiring at a moment that there was a great need for national pride. Yes, among the results of the Napoleon moment and actually of the revolution moment just before, he is the creation of a nation, of a modern nation, a nation which is not only embodied by a king, by a monarchy, but a nation because it's a regroupment of a people that recognize themselves as a member of a one entity. And so it's exactly at this moment, and he's fostering them of these feelings of this national,

or patriotic feelings. And so he did it actually in France, but also in the just before, with his first successes, and just also afterwards, actually, in the first 18-end, he is fostering the German national sentiment or the Italian national sentiment.

At that time, both Germany and Italy were not one state, they were federation, they were kingdoms, sometimes depending together, sometimes completely standing alone. And he is fostering that also at the same time to kill, for instance, the former holy empire,

German empire, which was existing since Charlemagne for a very long time, for more than 1,000 years. And at the same time in Italy, where there were like small kingdoms and he is the instrument that is fostering, among other things, the feeling of an Italian identity and nationality.

Absolutely. I think that's so interesting. America is such a young country, obviously, compared to Europe. But then you see that actually, Germany, as we know it today, and a united Italy are more recent than I think people realize. Italy wasn't unified until, what was it, 1870. I think that's so fascinating to point out that Napoleon was a force behind some of that unifying sentiment. Can I ask, I think that even though, obviously, America and France were such great allies during the American Revolution, I think that over the centuries, America has sort of aligned itself with England and historically at least has sort of an anglophilic perspective on history. And so I think when most people learn about Napoleon, it's through an English lens.

they only, you know, people who aren't history buffs, people who just know the broad headlines think that Napoleon was short, which, you know, he was average height, that was sort of British propaganda, and they sort of see him as the strong man of Europe, this dictator, sort of the way that I think he's more understood in England and Great Britain. Can you sort of speak to how Napoleon is viewed today in France? I would say to come back on your first, part of your question, that, yeah, there is, of course, maybe a British lecture of what you see of Napoleon. But I would also say that you, and we see it, that you have a French lecture of also this

history. When we see how popular the motor oldest allies is, how you see when Nafayette is celebrated here, when you see maybe the importance of Rochambeau, celebrated on the east coast. And I mean, I, maybe it's not generally, but we at the west coast, at the east coast, and in Washington, we feel it. We see this stronger proximity.

And actually, I don't know if Lafayette and Napoleon were very close. I guess they met a few times, but they were not really, not really close. Both of them, both of them were very young. When Lafayette came, he was, I think, 23 or 24 in participating in Yorktown. And when Napoleon became general, he was also 24.

So you're really, really young. I think one of the brothers of Napoleon settled afterwards in New Jersey also, Joseph. Oh, I didn't know that. Joseph, yeah, went to New Jersey, I guess. But Napoleon himself never went to the U.S. And I guess Lafayette was seeing the U.S. more as a land of opportunity, whereas Napoleon was maybe seeing it more as a land of conquest, but also a deal on because he sold the Louisiana in 1903,

you remember that, of course. In a very generous deal to us, I will say. Because Louisiana were gigantic, I think. It was obviously not, which was on the left bank of Mississippi. I found the west bank of Mississippi. Yes. So just to remind, in a way, there is a kind of American history. of Napoleon that you could say, an American angle of Napoleon history, that I actually

as a, that I can feel when I'm here. And then now, I do. So sorry to interrupt, but I do. I actually, I think that's a very important point just to reiterate that it was Napoleon who sold Thomas Jefferson the massive, I mean, the Louisiana purchase was a massive swath of what makes up the United States. I think it doubled the size of the U.S. by then. No kind of you're comfortable.

Absolutely. If you, if any listeners who don't actually remember the actual map, just Google the Napoleon, the Louisiana purchase and you will see how vast that amount of land is that then, of course, was explored

by Lewis and Clark. But it's fascinating that Napoleon just sort of, obviously he was distracted by affairs happening in Europe and I think saw America as a bit of an albatross at that moment, like a little bit of a distraction, but it gave us a great deal. And then on the second part of your question, where you're saying, okay, what's the image we have? It's an image which is a complex. I'd say you have an angle which is art history.

We find, for instance, you have this famous painting of David, which is the crowning of Napoleon and Josephine, actually. Napoleon crowning himself. You're crying and so no, crying in Josephine, no, isn't it exactly? Yeah. And so this is a

painting that everyone knows of, for instance. It was a bit the case a few decades ago. It's less the case now. You had some persons really learning all the battles. You know, it was a kind of part of the how history was taught or learned. So it was going from, I don't know, Stenludes to Marangor to all sorts of the defeats.

The Mosques Vah and the Russian campaign or Trafalgar. But you had this. I think it's a bit less now the case that we learn of him. We learn of him also about the results. So all this kind of what we call mass de granite. I don't know how to translate that really. Granite math is the kind of big institutions that he created

and that survived afterwards. In the 19th century, I think in France, we tried every kind of regime possible from an empire to Republic, to kingdom, to everything. And this kind of institution survived. You had the civil code, for instance, that he created and that survived, and it still exists now. You have this creation of the Federal Reserve, which is called Ban de France.

You had the creation of the Lyce, which is a high school, which was very different at that time. It was quite a bit military, but it still survived now. We had the creation of the institution of the prefect. You don't have prefect here, but it would be a kind of... of governor in a state that would be appointed by the federal state and not elected by his constituent. And that would represent more the capital, the federal capital. Yeah.

So all these institutions still exist. And we also learn, of course, by the parts which are darker, such as Haiti or slavery. And because it's very important, and I think that's where we, we are in France to give the closest to reality, to truth, history that we can do. Yeah, I mean, because Napoleon is. He's such a fascinating figure, I think, because of his many contradictions. Obviously, the Napoleonic code was so vital to upholding, you know, basic French rights. And even though Napoleon initially upheld the revolutionary ban on slavery, he did at a certain point undo that and reinstitute

slavery in the in the french colonies yeah exactly and so this is something that we don't put under the run at all this is something that we that we learn among everything and so it's always also interesting so you have this reality and then you have the the learners of how history is told about them because i was saying also at the beginning that he was among the he was the first also to tell his own story the memoir of santairene his own memoir when he was in the sainte de l'en island after his fall. And then also so many historians on there. It's one of the subjects in the French history,

which is the richest. I mean, so many people went on there, and so you have some who like and who will try to keep on in the wake of the strong man and try to say, oh, France at that time was strong. And you will have the others who will go, more on the institution that he builds. So you have, in a way,

tell me what the image of Napoleon of Napoleon you have, and I will tell you who you are. That's brilliant. Thank you. I mean, that's what a perspective, I think. Napoleon is absolutely something of a cipher. It's something of a, in English, we would call it a Roerjack test,

where you can look at him and what you see. I didn't know that name. Thank you. Well, Pascal, thank you so much for joining me. This was such a fascinating conversation, and I'm so happy to get to talk about one of my favorite historical figures, Napoleon, with you. Thank you. Thank you so much. And at the French embassy, we are always glad when in the U.S., you are interested in French history. And in this case, in a French history, which is European history, world history also, but also something very linked to American history at that time. Incredibly linked to American history. And please, come back anytime and talk more.

Noble Blood is a production of I-Heart Radio and Grimmin-Mild from Aaron Manky. Noble Blood is created and hosted by me, Dana Schwartz, with additional writing and researching by Hannah Johnston, Hannah Zwick, Mira Hayward, Courtney Sender, and Lori Goodman. The show is edited and produced by Noami Griffin and Rima Il-Ka Ali, with supervising producer Josh Thane, and executive producers Aaron Manky, Alex Williams, and Matt Frederick. For more podcasts from IHeartRadio, visit the IHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. Hey, I'm Dr. Maya Shunker, a cognitive scientist and hosts of the podcast, a slight change of plans, a show about who we are and who we become when life makes other plans. I wish that I hadn't resisted for so long the need to change. We have to be willing to live with a kind of uncertainty that none of us likes. You can have opinions. You can have like a strong stance. And then there's your body having its own program. Listen to a slight change of plans on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

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