Noble Blood - Pompey and the Prince

Episode Date: January 30, 2024

Jean Baptiste Charbonneau is best known for something that he accomplished as an infant -- traveling with his mother, Sacagawea, and Lewis and Clark with the Corps of Discovery to the Pacific Ocean. B...ut as he reached adulthood, he would become a symbol of a new American identity, eventually spending six years living alongisde an eager explorer who happened to be a German Duke. Support Noble Blood:— Bonus episodes, stickers, and scripts on Patreon— Noble Blood Merch— Order Dana's book, 'Anatomy: A Love Story' and its sequel 'Immortality: A Love Story'See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Transcript
Discussion (0)
Starting point is 00:00:00 This is an I-heart podcast. Guaranteed Human. This Financial Literacy Month, we are talking about the one investment most people ignore, building a business around the life you actually want. It was just us, making happen whatever he said was going to happen, and then it happened. On Those Amigos, entrepreneurs like America Sam and Joe Huff, get real about money, taking risk, and while your dream might be the smartest move. At the end of my life, what am I really going to care about?
Starting point is 00:00:26 And the conclusion I came to is what I did to make the world a better place in whatever way. Listen to those amigos on the IHartRadio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. Welcome to Noble Blood, a production of IHart Radio and Grimm and Mild from Aaron Manky. Listener discretion advised. Friedrich Paul Wilhelm of Wurtenberg was a collector. He was a man who would eventually fill his palace, located 100 kilometers outside Stuttgart, with countless artifacts from around the world, skins from
Starting point is 00:01:03 animals killed in Africa, knives from Native American tribes, art and natural wonders from Australia. His palace would be the largest private collection at the time of natural history in Germany, possibly even in Europe. But as a younger man, Duke Paul was also a collector of experiences. He was bored with the military and bored with royal court. He was a prince in the most powerful family, in the region, nephew to the king of Wurttemberg, but he was the fifth son, and so he had the flexibility and freedom to take some time to do what he wanted, and what Paul wanted to do was explore. Early in the 1820s, when Paul Wilhelm was in his early 20s, he wrote a letter to the American government, requesting permission to travel throughout the country. He wanted to learn as much as he could
Starting point is 00:02:03 about the natural world. And though, of course, he didn't actually want to do it anonymously. He was going to request permission after all. He did want to do it incognito. President Monroe scoffed at that part. And without Paul Wilhelm's knowledge, Monroe went ahead and ensured that the Secretary of State informed all local authorities that a German prince was to be protected by whatever means necessary, even military guards if need be. But Paul Wilhelm didn't know that an entire government had mobilized to ensure his safety, and in 1822 he sailed to New Orleans from Hamburg in a three-mast ship to begin his grand adventure, probably imagining he was in more physical peril than the American government would have ever let befall such an important visitor. The Duke brought with him what
Starting point is 00:03:00 was considered an incredibly paltry entourage, only one servant, one hunter, and one master woodworker, who I imagine is the type of person you want to bring along when you're doing so much travel by boat. Duke Paul was amazed at the natural beauty of the so-called new world, the flora and fauna, the vast mountains and sweeping vistas. He eventually even joined an expedition to track one of the first. the sources of the Missouri River. After three years spent exploring North America, Duke Paul returned to Germany, but he wouldn't do so empty-handed. Like I said, Paul was a collector, and it wasn't just animals and objects that he liked to fill his palace with. Paul had met a young man, only a few years younger than he was, named Jean-Baptiste Charbonneau in Kansas. Charbonneau was the son
Starting point is 00:03:59 of a Native American woman and a French fur trapper. And when Paul returned to Germany, Jean-Baptiste Charbonneau would accompany him, living abroad with the prince for six years, in something that was framed as sort of a cultural exchange program. If the name Jean-Baptiste Charbonneau doesn't ring any bells, would you believe me if I told you you've almost certainly seen a picture of him? Or at least if you're American, you've almost certainly seen a picture of him as a baby on his mother's back. It's an image so iconic, it was printed on the gold one dollar coin that was minted in the United States in the year 2000 to honor Jean-Baptiste's mother, Saka Juaia. The story of Saka-Juaia, the young native woman with an infant child who
Starting point is 00:04:57 accompanied Lewis and Clark on their quest to the Pacific, has become almost an American myth, a story that's been flattened to its broadest, most inspiring strokes. The story of Sacagawea as myth ends with Lewis and Clark's successful journey, her son forever an infant. But Jean-Baptiste Charbonneau grew up, and he became a man, and his strange life, is perhaps the most American story imaginable. A life caught between a shifting west and calcified European aristocracy. A life caught between his native ancestry that made him, quote, exotic, and his white connections that allowed him certain privileges.
Starting point is 00:05:48 A life of celebrity, of politics, of the gold rush. There's a theme that's recurred on this podcast over and over. over again. If you allow yourself to become a symbol, you get certain privileges, but you sacrifice the right to be an actual human being. We all know the powerful image of Jean-Baptiste Charbonneau and what he represented as an infant. But who was he as a man? I'm Dana Schwartz, and this is Noble Blood. Jean-Baptiste Charbonneau's life as a symbol began immediately when he was born. In 1804, Meriwether Lewis and William Clark set out with a group known as the core of discovery, with the goal of exploring and mapping the recently purchased Louisiana Territory.
Starting point is 00:06:45 The trip began at the border of southern Illinois, what up until then had been the end of the United States, and the group traveled north and west until they reached Oregon and the Pacific Ocean. The entire expedition is mythologized in the United States, and the group traveled north and west until they reached Oregon and the Pacific Ocean. The entire expedition is mythologized in American culture, particularly when it's taught to younger children for embodying a spirit of adventure, a piece of romantic Americana that we can cling to in our comparatively short national history. But the details of that exploratory trip are less frequently explored in any significant detail. It was about five months into the journey when the Corps reached what is currently North Dakota, where they set up a fort near the native Mandan people called Fort Mandon. It was there that they hired a French fur trader who had been living among the native people
Starting point is 00:07:41 to act as a guide and translator on the arduous journey up the Missouri River and through the mountains. His name was Toussaint Charbonneau, and as luck would have it, his wife, or rather one of his wives, was a native Shoshone woman, and it was decided that she would come along on the journey to help communicate with the Shoshone people. Her name was Sakajuwea. Now, this is the detail that they don't teach in the most romantic versions of the adventures of Lewis and Clark and Sackajuea. She was 16 years old, and she was Sharbonneau's wife, only in the sense that he had purchased her or won her while gambling when she was 13 years old, along with another Shoshone girl named Otter Woman.
Starting point is 00:08:33 When Sacchuaia was 12, her tribe had been raided by a group of Hidotza people, and she was held captive. Charbonneau purchased Sacchua and Otter Woman from the Hidotza, and so while texts refer to Sacchia as Charbonneau's wife, I want to make very clear that even though that's the language a lot of texts use, this was in no way a consensual marriage. And just as long as we're being clear-eyed about the history, I think it's also important to note that Clark had with him on the journey, an enslaved man named York, a man that he had inherited from his father.
Starting point is 00:09:15 Anyway, the Corps remained at Fort Mandon for the winter, and in February of 1805, Sacagauea gave birth to John Baptiste. Less than two months later, the expedition set off again with Sacchia and her infant son in tow. Little Jean-Baptiste was adored by Clark, who delightedly nicknamed him Pompey,
Starting point is 00:09:39 but more than that, the entire expedition quickly realized what a coup it was to have an infant with them. In his journals, Clark writes about an incident along the riverside of the Columbia Plateau, where a group of Native Americans fled into their homes, visibly threatened by Clark. Apparently, he had fired a gun nearby, and they, for good reason, assumed he was most likely a threat. No matter how Clark tried to explain that he was part of an exploratory mission, the Native Americans would not engage with him.
Starting point is 00:10:15 There was fear that the tension might bubble into violence. And then Sacagauea and baby John Baptiste arrived with Lewis by canoe. Clark wrote, They immediately all came out and appeared to assume new life. The sight of this Indian woman, wife, to one of our interpreters, confirmed those people of our friendly intentions, as no woman ever accompanies a war party of Indians in this quarter. Sacagawea would also prove to be a boon to the Corps in more than just her physical presence.
Starting point is 00:10:51 When a storm caused a boat to capsize, it was Sacchuaia who dove into the river and recovered many of the lost items, including all of the Corps' journals which had been lost. When the Corps reached Western Montana, Saccajuwea was able to point out Beaverhead Rock, a formation she recognized from her childhood, from where her nation, would spend their summers, and she pointed out where they would approach the pass through the mountains. The group finally rendezvoused with the Shoshone people, and Saksuea had what must have been an incredibly surreal and beautiful moment. She had been kidnapped from her home when she was 12, held captive, sold, and married to a stranger. And then years later, as part of the core of discovery,
Starting point is 00:11:44 she reunited with her tribe only to realize that their chief was now her brother. As thanks for reuniting him with his long-lost sister, the chief, Camelwaite, provided the group with the horses they would need to cross the Rocky Mountains. This is also much less of a big deal, but it is a detail I find touching. Sacchua gave up her beaded belt so that Lewis and Clark could use it to trade for a sea otter fur coat that they wanted to give to Thomas Jefferson. To quote Clark on the incident directly, one of the Indians had on a robe made of two sea otter skins. The fur of them were more beautiful than any fur I had ever seen. Both Capte Lewis and myself endeavored to purchase the robe with different
Starting point is 00:12:32 articles at length. We procured it for a belt of blue beads, which the wife of our interpreter, Sharbonneau wore around her waist. I feel like he could have at least given her named credit on that one, but alas. And so that was Little Pompey's life for his first year, traveling across the brand-new nation, serving as silent ambassador, a mascot with his mother for the expedition's peaceful intentions. When the expedition was finally over, Lewis and Clark dropped Sacagauea to Saint-Sharbonneau, and Pompey, now a year and a half old, back near the Mandan people where they had started. Clark had grown attached to Little Pompey and told his parents that he would take him off their hands for them, raising him as his own and seeing to his education.
Starting point is 00:13:28 A little while after the expedition, Clark wrote to Toussaint-Sharbonneau, entreating him and Sacagawea to come move to Illinois to be closer to him. At the letter's end, Clark added, As to your little son, my boy pomp, you well know my fondness for him and my anxiety to take and raise him as my own child. I once more tell you if you will bring your son Baptiste to me, I will educate him and treat him as my own child. Wish you and your family great success, and with anxious expectations of seeing my little dancing boy Baptiste, I shall remain your friend William Clark. Three years later, Toussaint-Sharbonneau and Sacchia did move to St. Louis,
Starting point is 00:14:14 where they allowed Clark to take command of little Jean-Baptiste's education. Clark quickly enrolled the boy in St. Louis Academy Boarding School. I do think that Clark genuinely liked Jean-Baptiste and was attached to him. After all, he was there for the first year and a half of his life, and he was his boy pomp. But I do think it would be a mistake to imagine that his offer of paying for Jean-Baptiste's education was entirely altruistic,
Starting point is 00:14:45 or rather altruistic, without some slightly uncomfortable colonial implications. Because Jean-Baptiste was half Native American, his education could serve as a model for assimilation. For one of the most famous women in American history, at least in terms of name recognition, it's a little astonishing how little recorded history there is about what happened to Sacchua next. Most likely she died in 1812, presumably while living with Toussaint at the Fort Lisa Trading Port. A clerk at the fort recorded in his journal on December 20th, 1812,
Starting point is 00:15:30 that the wife of Charbonneau died of putrid fever. The fourth. The fourths, fur trader and later congressman Henry Breckenridge had also written that Sagittwea, quote, had become sickly and longed to revisit her native country. As for Toussaint's other, quote, wife, Otterwoman, after the Corps' journals note that they were taking one of Tucson's wives along, but not the other, Otterwoman fully disappears from the record, and I haven't found any reputable information at all about what happened to her. And so, though, While some claim that Zaka Juea left Fort Lisa and did return to her home people, she most likely died when she was 25 years old, having recently given birth to an infant girl.
Starting point is 00:16:20 Almost immediately, Toussaintézharbonneau signed over custody of both Jean-Baptiste and the little girl Lizette, over to Clark. Adoption papers in the St. Louis Records make clear, quote, on August 11th, 1813, William Clark became the guardian of Toussaint-Sharbano, a boy of about 10 years, and Lizette Charbonneau, a girl about one-year-old. As for Lizette, it's assumed she also died young, because, and perhaps you notice a pattern here, there is nothing more written about her. She simply disappears from the record. Toussaint Charbonneau would live for another 30 years, going on to Mary, at least, least three more teenage Native American girls, including a 14-year-old when he was 70 years old. We have to imagine Jean-Baptiste Charbonneau's childhood. His guardian, the famous William Clark,
Starting point is 00:17:21 his mother, dead, his father, gone, possibly raised alongside a young sister, possibly alone, sent to boarding school until he was 16 when he would meet the man who would change the course of his life. Duke Paul Wilhelm, thrilled by the promise of natural discovery in the new world, had sailed across the ocean to America. He was a fairly accomplished naturalist and amateur painter dedicated to documenting the natural world. On June 21, 1823, he arrived at a small Chateau settlement near the mouth of the Kansas River.
Starting point is 00:18:05 That was where he first met Jean-Baptiste-Sharbonneau, and from their first meeting, Paul Wilhelm was aware of the celebrity of his mother. He wrote, quote, Here I also found a youth whose mother, a member of the tribe of Shoshones, or Snake Indians, had accompanied the messrs. Lewis and Clark as an interpreter to the Pacific Ocean.
Starting point is 00:18:29 The European continued up the Missouri River to its source, and actually at one point hired Toussaint Charbonneau as a guide and translator. His mission was successful, and when the Duke came back through America's interior that fall, when he reached the Kansas River again, this time he would take Jean-Baptiste along with him, with the plan that the two of them would both go back to Germany together.
Starting point is 00:18:58 The trip turned out to be a challenging one. The steamboat that the men were on to get to New Orleans sank, but they did make it eventually, though the trip across the Atlantic would prove to be its main. own arduous journey. Duke Paul wrote, quote, the sea fought us with huge waves and the ship was tossed about so violently that the rolling action became unbearable. The waves struck with such force overboard that part of the railing was shattered. But the pair did eventually make it safely back to Germany. And it wasn't just John Baptiste that Duke Paul brought back. He also brought back
Starting point is 00:19:40 a live alligator that he had captured in New Orleans. Jean-Baptiste was only a few years younger than Duke Paul, but it's difficult to discern whether the relationship between the two men was one of friendship, or whether it was something more paternalistic or colonial. The first major English translation of the original German texts was done in the 1930s by Professor Lewis C. Butcher at the University of Wyoming, And historians today are fairly dismissive of his translations for being, let's say, overly romantic at best and more than a little embellished. Professor Butcher's version of the story is the two men becoming instant and close friends, both young men from illustrious families, one a German prince, the other the sion of one of the most romanticized fables of Americana.
Starting point is 00:20:38 and Professor Butcher is correct in the facts that for the next six years, Jean-Baptiste Charbonneau would live alongside Duke Paul in Germany, in a palace with him, and travel across the world at his side, including travels to Africa and Australia. Imagining that the two were just best friends who shared a taste for adventure is appealing, and in fact if you are listening and looking for the subject, of a historical rom-com that you want to write, I would be delighted to read a fictional account of the two explorers
Starting point is 00:21:16 sharing an intimate and loving friendship. But unfortunately, as you are probably predicting, the reality was a little more uncomfortable. I actually don't think it's as nefarious as it could have been. I've seen some suggestions that Jean-Baptiste was brought over to Germany to be a servant, But there actually isn't really evidence of that either. Like Clark, Duke Paul Wilhelm was likely excited by the chance to, quote, enlighten a, quote, primitive Native American.
Starting point is 00:21:51 And he would get a personal encyclopedia on hand to answer any questions he might have about America or Native American culture. In return, Jean-Baptiste would get to travel the world, live in a palace, and get new experiences, all while having an education funded. Jean-Baptiste already spoke several languages at this point, and over the course of his time in Germany, he would add a few more to the roster. According to most 20th century sources,
Starting point is 00:22:22 the arrangement was something partly between studying abroad and being a member of someone's entourage, with Jean-Baptiste receiving an education and enjoying the freedom to meet new people, explore the black forest, and practice his hunting and horseback riding. The Duke had also previously brought a young man, Juan Alverdo, from Mexico, who in theory received a similar education, math, history, geography, and languages.
Starting point is 00:22:53 The Duke also brought back two men from Africa and one from India. So all of these men were, depending on your interpretation, either 19th century study abroad students, quote-unquote, exotic servants, personal cultural encyclopedias, or some combination of all of the above. We might have gotten a more detailed account of the men's time spent together, but many of the Duke's personal journals were destroyed in the damage of World War II. Given that lack of evidence, Professor Albert Verdwengler favors the more pessimistic framing. In 2001, he wrote, quote,
Starting point is 00:23:37 there is no evidence that the prince educated Charbonneau, saw him as an equal, took interest enough in him to learn about him directly after 1829, or treated him as anything better than an exotic specimen brought back to Europe along with other Indian items for his collections. Indeed, we have almost nothing that the prince wrote about Charbonneau. We know that John Baptiste remained in Europe for six years, until 1829, but it wouldn't be until more than 25 years later that Charbonneau emerges again in Paul Wilhelm's writings. The Duke was back in California on a trip where he encountered a group of Shoshone Native Americans. One of these, he wrote, was a fine young lad, quite intelligent,
Starting point is 00:24:26 who reminded me strangely and with a certain sadness of B. Charbonneau, who had followed me to, in 1823, Europe, and whose mother was of the tribe of the Shoshones. Why or when they lost touch, whether Paul Wilhelm viewed Jean-Baptiste as a friend or just another specimen lost or misplaced in his travels is something lost to us. We do know one fact about the time that Jean-Baptiste was in Germany. A parish birth announcement for a child named Anton Fries born on February 20th, 1829. child of, quote, Johann Baptiste Charbonneau of St. Louis called the American, in service of Duke Paul of this place, and Anastasia Caterina Fries, unmarried daughter of the late George Fries,
Starting point is 00:25:23 a soldier here. The infant unfortunately died that spring, and a few months later, when he was 25 years old, Jean-Baptiste would leave Europe forever and return to the place he was born. Jean-Baptiste joins a fur company, he sets out west, and joins several other parties of men who hunted buffalo and traded furs. He traveled almost constantly. When his father died in 1843, he sold some land he had inherited for $320. He appears in the record as a guide on several hunting expeditions, including one for another European nobleman, a Scottish baronet, named Sir William Drummond Stewart. Jean-Baptiste would spend the rest of his years
Starting point is 00:26:13 living a rustic life on the Western frontier, seemingly a complete reversal of the years he spent among the sophisticated finery of German court. The historian Grace Hebert, writing in 1933, can barely mask her condescension and, frankly, racism in her dismissal of Jean-Baptiste Charbonneau, who, quote, quote, seems to have deteriorated despite his education, his contact with civilization, and his
Starting point is 00:26:46 efficient services in earlier years. Baptiste thus apparently forgot his classical education and superior attainments. She continues that Charbonneau is not a unique case. Quote, examples without number have occurred of the same sort of reversion, both among Indians and whites who have lived under similar conditions among Saviourne. or in the wild. She finally concludes that, quote, culture that is only a veneering is easily rubbed off by constant association
Starting point is 00:27:20 with uneducated Indians and illiterate whites. Anne Heifan writing in the 60s presents a similarly condescending but more romanticized explanation of Jean-Baptiste Charbonneau's Life Out West, quoting an anecdote of a man from 1830, who had met a Native American trapper near Bent's fort who may or may not have actually been Jean-Baptiste.
Starting point is 00:27:47 In the anecdote that may or may not have actually happened. As she reports, the man apparently asked the Native American, why did you leave civilized life for a precarious livelihood in the wilderness? To which the Native American trapper replies, quote, for reasons found in the nature of my race, explaining that Indians aren't satisfied with, quote, the description of things, and that they have to experience, quote, treasures and realities as they live in their own native magnificence on the Eternal Mountains. Eventually, Charbonneau was hired as a scout in the Mexican-American War,
Starting point is 00:28:28 and in 1847, he was appointed the Alcada or mayor of Mission San Luis Re de Francia. The next year he would join in on the California Gold Rush, mining the big crevice in California, an operation that was successful enough for him that he did it for at least 16 years, living in where is now Auburn, California, and working as a hotel manager. He eventually left California when he was 61 years old, whether driven by wanderlust or by the slowing local economy, While crossing the rugged Oye River, Charbonneux slipped off his horse and fell into the icy water. He became ill, either from the fall or maybe he had been ill before, from a lifetime lived rough, breathing in alkali dust and living in rugged surroundings.
Starting point is 00:29:23 He was brought to Danner, Oregon, where he died. The city is now a ghost town, but there's a grave site not too far, which marks, quote, the final resting place of the youngest member of the Lewis and Clark expedition, the grave of the man who traveled across America before he could walk, who spent six years in Germany alongside a prince, who spoke five languages and spent the better part of the 19th century, working as a guide, a trapper, and gold prospector. As a child, he had represented the promise of peace.
Starting point is 00:30:01 As an adult, he can be reframed to represent a romanticized version of the American West, a mascot for a certain spirit of adventure onto whom people can project their fears or prejudices or fascination with Native Americans and the American West itself. It's a version of our history that maybe never existed in the first place or only ever existed in the slivered, of real people's stories. But Jean-Baptiste Charbonneau did exist. That's the story of Jean-Baptiste Charbonneau and his relationship with Duke Paul Wilhelm of Vertonberg.
Starting point is 00:30:49 But keep listening after a brief sponsor break to hear a little bit more about Jean-Baptiste's lasting legacy in America. I'm Iris Palmer, and my new podcast is called Against All Od, and that's exactly what the show is about, doing whatever it takes to be thoughts. Get ready to hear from some of your favorite entrepreneurs and entertainers as they share stories about defying expectations, overcoming barriers, and breaking generational patterns. I'm talking to people like award-winning actress, producer, and director, Eva Longoria. I think I had like $200 in my savings account and my mom goes, what are you going to do? And I was like, I'll figure it out.
Starting point is 00:31:29 We got a one-bedroom apartment for like $400 a month and we all could not afford. Like, I was like, how am I going to make $100 a month? I'm opening up like I've never before. For those of you who think you know me from what you've seen on social media, get ready to see a whole new side of me. Listen to Against All Odds with Iris Palmer as part of the My Cultura podcast network, available on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. I'm Iris Palmer and my new podcast is called Against All Od,
Starting point is 00:31:58 and that's exactly what the show is about, doing whatever it takes to be the odds. Get ready to hear from some of your favorite entrepreneurs and entertainers as they share stories about defying expectations, overcoming barriers, and breaking generational patterns. I'm talking to people like award-winning actress, producer, and director, Eva Longoria. I think I had like $200 in my savings account, and my mom goes, what are you going to do? And I was like, I'll figure it out.
Starting point is 00:32:24 We got a one-bedroom apartment for like $400 a month, and we all could not afford. Like, I was like, how am I going to make $100 a month? I'm opening up like I've never before. For those of you who think you know me, from what you've seen on social media, get ready to see a whole new side of me. Listen to Against All Odds with Iris Palmer as part of the My Cultura Podcast Network,
Starting point is 00:32:43 available on the IHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. So much of this story has been lost to history, forced into the realm of speculation or wishful thinking. Even Lewis and Clark's journey, one of the most famous adventures in American history, left almost no physical evidence on the trail itself.
Starting point is 00:33:11 It seems the two men took the idiom to heart, leave only footprints, take only detailed journal entries. But there is one tiny exception. Near the banks of the Yellowstone River, a sandstone pillar stretches more than a hundred feet into the air, covering over two acres at its base. Enamored with Sacaga's baby son, Clark named the site Pompey's pillar.
Starting point is 00:33:38 and perhaps ironic on a monument named for a man for whom there is such a dearth of primary physical sources. Pompey's pillar is the site of the only known physical evidence of the Corps of Discovery's journey. Carved into the stone itself is W. Clark, July 25, 1806. Noble Blood is a production of IHeart Radio and Grimm and Mild from Aaron Manky. Noble Blood is created and hosted by me, Dana Schwartz, with additional writing and researching by Hannah Johnston, Hannah Zwick, Mira Hayward, Courtney Sender, and Lori Goodman. The show is edited and produced by Noamie Griffin and Rima Il Kali, with supervising producer Josh Thane
Starting point is 00:34:38 and executive producers Aaron Manky, Alex Williams, and Matt Frederick. For more podcasts from IHeartRadio, visit the IHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. This financial literacy month, we are talking about the one investment most people ignore, building a business around the life you actually want.
Starting point is 00:35:33 It was just us, making happen whatever he said was going to happen and then it happened. On those amigos, entrepreneurs like America Sam and Joe Huff get real about money, taking risk, and while your dream might be the smartest move. At the end of my life, what am I really going to care about? And the conclusion I came to is what I did to make the world a better place in whatever way. Listen to those amigos on the IHard Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. This is an IHeart podcast, guaranteed human.

There aren't comments yet for this episode. Click on any sentence in the transcript to leave a comment.