Noble Blood - The Duke and Adolf Hitler

Episode Date: August 23, 2022

In 1936, King Edward VIII abdicated the throne in order to marry a twice-divorced American woman named Wallis Simpson. Just a few short months later, the two were hosted in Germany by Adolf Hitler himself. Support Noble Blood: — Bonus episodes, stickers, and scripts on Patreon — Merch! — Order Dana's book, 'Anatomy: A Love Story' and pre-order its sequel 'Immortality: A Love Story'See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an I-heart podcast. Guaranteed Human. Hey, I'm Dr. Maya Shunker, a cognitive scientist and hosts of the podcast, a slight change of plans, a show about who we are and who we become when life makes other plans. I wish that I hadn't resisted for so long the need to change. We have to be willing to live with a kind of uncertainty that none of us likes. You can have opinions. You can have like a strong,

dance and then there's your body having its own program. Listen to a slight change of plans on the IHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome to Noble Blood, a production of IHeart Radio and grim and mild from Aaron Menke. Listener discretion advised. Hey, this is Dana Schwartz, host of Noble Blood. So, as you probably know if you've listened to this podcast, I wrote a book called Anatomy, a Love Story. But now there is a sequel coming out. Immortality, A Love Story is coming out March, 2023. But it's available for pre-order now.

So if you liked anatomy or you just like the idea of books about spooky surgeons in the 19th century, check it out. There's links in the episode description, along with links to the show's Patreon, where I post episode scripts and a bonus episode once a month. And links to merch, because we have new amazing merch that comes out all the the time. But as always, the best possible support for the show is just you listening to it. So thank you so much. October 22, 1937, Berlin. The Duke of Windsor, a newly wet at age 43, smiles his famously attractive smile as he disembarks from a private train in the German

mountains. He's greeted by a guard in uniform with whom he shakes hands, as he did countless times on his tours of America and Canada. This time, the guard is wearing a swastika armband. The Duke's wife, twice divorced, smiles at his side. The man they're here to see is napping, they're told, so they'll have to wait. The Duke and his wife are entertained well during the wait, with music, possibly Wagner, wafting through the room. They make small talk. Yes, they all agree. the fascists are strong, the British are weak, and the Jews, they may have said with a chuckle, well, don't get us started.

Finally, the man that the couple came to see is ready for them. They go into a meeting. Only 10 months ago, the Duke of Windsor had another more important title, King Edward VIII of England. Now he smiles that attractive smile and walks into his private audience with Adolf Hitler. When the future King Edward VIII was born in 1894, the heir to the British throne was christened with seven first names,

Edward, Albert, Christian, George, Andrew, Patrick, David. As king, we know him by the first of the seven names, Edward, but friends and family knew him by the last, David, as if the distance between his public and private selves could not be further apart. When his father, King George V, was alive, he once remarked that if David were to become king, that the, quote, boy will ruin himself in 12 months, end quote. King Edward V, never officially crowned in a coronation ceremony, ruled the United Kingdom of Great Britain for just 320,

days. Edward the 8th is the king who rose to the throne 18 years after World War I and scandalously abdicated before World War II, after less than one year as a monarch, in order to marry a twice-divorced American from Baltimore. In the TV series The Crown, he is a rapscallion, a beloved uncle who ultimately horrifies the young Queen Elizabeth with the contents of a private dossier of information about him. In the pages of menswear magazine in the interwar period, he was covered like a Hollywood icon, known for his good looks and fashion sense. In the notations by Queen Elizabeth's stationary office, he was an ever-loyal servant of the British cause. In this very podcast, he's been portrayed as the former lover of a murderess. But in the heart of Adolf Hitler, he was,

What? An ally? A friend? A pawn? We can't know for sure. What we do know is that recently abdicated King Edward the 8th of England, now known as the Duke of Windsor, David, brother to the then-current King of England, was entertained as an honored guest on a trip to Nazi Germany in 1937, where he had private meetings with Hitler, while Eva Braun and Rudolph Hess entertained his wife. the Duchess. The contents of this meeting are lost to history. It was a meeting just two years before the outbreak of World War II, which would kill up to 50 million people worldwide, but a meeting after Germany had already passed the Nuremberg laws, which stripped Jews of citizenship in Germany. Adolf Hitler was, at least for an afternoon, a private confidant

of the inner circle of the British royal family. I'm Dana Schwartz, and this is Noble Blood. The future Duke of Windsor's early life might be best described by this anecdote. After a boyhood in which he was pinched a bit too violently by his nanny, and in which he displayed some interest in German language and culture, he wound up a student at Oxford University, for which he was basically totally untouched. prepared. At this point in his life, he was the Prince of Wales. He considered his Oxford tutor,

Herbert Warren, quote, an awful man, end quote. The feeling was clearly mutual. After the Duke left Oxford without a degree in 1914, his tutor sold him out to the Times. Bookish he will never be, Warren wrote. The tight-lipped academic British equivalent, not quite of he's a complete nitwit, but certainly of he's better suited to non-academic pursuits. It's unlikely the pursuits the pursuit the tutor would have meant included being king. Young David wanted to go into battle during World War I. What does it matter if I'm shot? he said. I have four brothers, end quote. Not exactly the words of a guy desperate to live to his coronation. The Secretary of State for War replied, quote,

If I was certain you would be shot, I do not know if I should be right to restrain you, end quote. The big concern wasn't that the heir to the throne might be killed, but that he might be taken prisoner. It was a concern that would continue to haunt the British in the Second World War decades later. So, though David wasn't allowed in battle, he did tour the trenches. He witnessed soldiers, young men his own age, who lived in constant fear of shelling. He smelled the rotting corpses of their fellow men. The experience disturbed him deeply, so deeply, in fact, that it may have planted certain ideological seeds. The idea that peace between the European nations is the single most.

important aim, that war in Europe can never be allowed to happen again. From the horrors of the trench, this was a noble idea, but we all know what the road to hell is paved with. And if you think a little thing like trench warfare would depress the prince for long, think again. World War I ended with the armistice on November 11th, 1918, exactly one month before David's 24th birthday, and he was certainly celebrating. To put it bluntly, the man was considered very attractive. He had a strong jawline and dreamy eyes. He traveled to the United States and Canada,

shaking hands like a modern movie star, the object of a million teenage daydreams. He was an international fashion plate who, scandalously, dared to use a zipper in his fly instead of a button. Unsurprisingly, all of that made him very popular with the ladies. He embarked on a long and storied career of affairs with married women, a lot of them. There's a Seinfeld joke, you can't just have an adultery, you commit adultery. And David was committed.

He had affairs on his affairs. One of his early mistresses was the future murderess Marguerite Alibere, who we actually covered on this podcast. David continued on with his affairs until finally in 1931, when, at the age of 36, at the home of one of these several married women he was then sleeping with, he met a new woman, an already once divorced American from Baltimore, conceived out of wedlock who carried her father's name, dark, dramatic brows, red lipstick with a sharp,

middle part in her hair. Her name was Wallace Simpson. The Prince of Wales, who had spent a decade seducing and sleeping with an endless cue of women, felt his heart thud in his chest. He looked at Wallace Simpson and fell madly in love. By all accounts, he never fell out of it. In the meantime, as you may have guessed, nobody in England was really thinking, this guy is fit for the throne. David had a younger brother, Albert, affectionately called Bertie, whom everyone preferred in temperament. But Bertie also had a stutter, and he seemed a shy and unlikely king in his own way. Still, their father, King George V, made his preference clear. He was quoted as saying,

I pray to God that my eldest son will never marry, and nothing will come between Bertie and Lilibet and the throne. Lilibet, of course, was referencing Bertie's daughter, the current Queen Elizabeth II. So, with the parental preference so obvious, you can forgive me for assuming David probably had some daddy issues. Unfortunately, death doesn't care if you lack confidence in your successor. King George V died near midnight on January 20, 1936. He was famously administered euthanasia so that his death could be reported in the dignified morning papers rather than the more salacious evening ones. The Prince of Wales, David, became King Edward VIII that same day.

Although the king's advisors assumed Wallace was just another mistress, it quickly turned out that David really was in love. He seriously wanted to marry her. And then she started divorce proceedings from her second husband. But, well, the king is the head of the Church of England, and the church doesn't allow divorce. There was some back and forth between the king and the royal family, the cabinet, Winston Churchill, and Wallace herself about all of this.

Later in life, recounting this period, Wallace will make herself out to be especially selfless. Quote, I am sure there's only one solution. She says, quote, "'That is for me to remove myself from the king's life. That is what I am doing now,' end quote. At least that's what she remembers herself as saying. In the end, there was no way around David's choice.

It was the church and the monarchy, or it was Wallace. The king chose Wallace. Just shy of one year on the throne, before his own coronation, Edward VIII abdicated. The decision may have been as much about the character mismatch between David and the throne as it was about Wallace, but to the public, it was about love. To the monarchy, of course, it was disgrace. To renounce family and duty for personal pleasure, even if it was framed as a great love story,

was the greatest possible failure of a royal. The Archbishop of Canterbury told the nation that the Duke, in his, quote, craving for private happiness, had, quote, disappointed hopes so high and abandoned a trust so great, end quote. David's little brother, Bertie, became King George the Sixth, which put his daughter, Elizabeth, next in line. David was demoted to the title Duke of Windsor, but as Duke, he finally got to do what he wanted. He married Wallace Simpson on June 3, 1937 in Tour France. David may have gotten his bride that day in France,

but there was little else to celebrate. No one in the family came to the wedding. Though he explicitly asked, Wallace was denied the title, Her Royal Highness. That designation can never be revoked, and the Royals thought, But what if she goes off and marries a fourth guy still carrying the title British Royal Highness? It was impossible.

It was all an enormous insult for the former Prince of Wales, the former king, the international fashion icon. So here David and Wallace are, in 1937, honeymooning in a borrowed German mansion said to be haunted, the abdicated monarch and his new wife, isolated and alone, looking for anyone to treat them as the king and queen they felt they ought to have been. Four months after their wedding, the Duke and Duchess of Windsor arrived in Berlin. As the train pulled into the station, the former king felt a twinge of old recognition and joy, and then a fresh twinge of his newer resentment and anger when he saw the red, white, and blue of his own Union Jack, and he felt a chill of fear, of power, of excitement, or maybe even envy,

when he saw his own flag alongside the red, white, and black of the swatstica. David and Wallace were welcomed warmly on their trip to Berlin. The list of people who entertained them socially is a list of Nazi war criminals, Joseph Goebbels, Reich Minister of Propaganda, Hermann Goury, Hitler's second in command who'd been in charge of creating the Gestapo, Adolf Hitler himself. In the chummy photos of David and Wallace out in public with Hitler, the three of them are standing shoulder to shoulder. David is in the middle, long peacoat-buttoned and tie-crisp, a hint of a smile on his handsome face. Hitler is half-bowing to shake hands with Wallace, pulling her arm

toward his chest, swastika on his arm, both Wallace and Hitler smiling broadly, David deferential in the middle. Another picture shows David without his wife or Hitler, hatless in a sea of bowlers and peaked SS caps. He's raising his right arm, palm flat, fingers pointed to the sky in a Nazi salute, with his elbow slightly cocked, as if some part of him knew he wasn't in the right. I'll pause here to say that the extent of David's involvement with the Nazis has been covered up over time, with heavy influence from the Royals. Some of the speculation stems from those photographs, readily accessible in a Google search. But much of the speculation comes from the Marburg files,

a trove of 400 tons of German documents found in 1945. Within these, the so-called Windsor-Fynolds, about the Duke and Duchess were the subject of a long cover-up. So long that many of the details I've recounted so far in this podcast come from a book that was only published this year, Andrew Loney's Trader King. I think it's worth quoting directly from Loney's book on the following point. Describing a day in Dusseldorf with David, Wallace, and their attendant, Dudley-Fourwood,

the book says, quote, they toured a miners' hospital and a concentration camp. Forward later recalled, we saw this enormous concrete building, which, of course, I now know, contained inmates. The Duke asked, what is that? Our host replied, it is where they store the cold meat, end quote. Finally, a week and a half after their arrival in Berlin, the fateful meeting with Adolf Hitler arrived. The Duke and Duchess sat in the train car that ferried them south of Berlin, skirting Munich. The train chugged as it scaled the snow-capped Bavarian Alps to the present-day southern border with Austria. They disembarked in Berchtesgarten and found themselves whisked away to Adolf Hitler's vacation chalet. The place was like a resort, complete with terrace, big colorful umbrellas,

and cactuses in the entrance. Hitler was napping, the Duke and Duchess were told when they arrived, in what honestly reads to me like a power move. Yes, we'll pull out the SS version of a red carpet for you, but Hitler can make you wait here because you aren't king anymore. Won't you make yourself comfortable, they were asked? There's a lovely view of the snow-capped mountains out the window. Perhaps you've noted the light jade green color scheme,

chosen by the Fuhrer himself. They sat in the home that Hitler himself so loved. One year later, in fact, Homes and Gardens magazine would cover the place like it was Jennifer Aniston's mansion in the Hollywood Hills. Hitler, quote, has a passion about cut flowers in his home, the article said. This place is mine, Hitler said in the magazine interview,

sounding like a millennial impressed with his first job. I built it with the money that I, earned. That money, of course, came from the sale of his infamous anti-Semitic book, Mind Kempth, which was banned in Germany from the end of the war until 2015. At last, Hitler woke up from his nap. His wife, Ava Braun, and Deputy Führer Rudolf Hess, told Wallace they would keep her occupied. Wallace and David nodded at each other. Perhaps David kissed his beautiful wife on the cheek. and then the former king of England walked into the private room with the then current furor of Germany on the eve of World War II. The two men sat together with teacups in front of them

and talked about, well, we don't know what they talked about. Perhaps someday a scandalous note about it will turn up on a scrap of napkin. Maybe we'll never know. Maybe they discussed the quote-unquote Jewish question, as if it were a problem of politics and not human being. Maybe they'd discussed the strength of fascism and the weakness of democracy. Maybe they'd discussed what they'd each seen on the front in World War I. All of this is speculation. Maybe they talked about dogs or divorce or art. We don't know. Eventually, the meeting ended. The New York Times reported that Hitler gave them a long, affectionate goodbye, holding both their hands, and that when Hitler gave his salute, David raised his arm and returned the Nazi heile. After the trip to Berlin,

David and Wallace returned to Paris. In 1940, when the Germans invaded France, David and Wallace fled southwest to neutral Spain and then Portugal. The Germans hatched a plot to kidnap him, to use him to their advantage, but it didn't materialize. Churchill appointed him governor of the Bahamas, a minor and almost embarrassing little post for any royal, especially a former king. It was clear enough that Churchill and the Crown were nervous about David's loyalties. The Bahamas were as far as they could ship him off

to ensure he stayed away from Hitler. He and Wallace accepted the post, unhappily and stayed in the Bahamas until the end of the war in 1945. There are a lot of rumors about this period, that David knew of the Allies' war plans in Belgium and leaked them to the Germans, that David wanted the Germans to bomb England, his own country, that President Roosevelt ordered surveillance on him when he and Wallace visited Florida in 1941, that the FBI had heard that Wallace was sleeping,

with a German ambassador. All this, of course, the Duke and the Crown have denied as misinterpretation or misquoting or hearsay. What then can we absolutely know? Well, that the former King of England definitely had more sympathy for the Nazis during World War II than could possibly be comfortable for England or for us today.

And that basically covers the extent of the what? What remains for us to understand is the why. Was it simply naivete or lack of foresight? Was the salute just instinctual politeness? After all, in 1939, Roosevelt himself sent the St. Louis, a ship of Jewish refugees, back to Europe to be killed in the camps. Only one month after the Duke's visit to Hitler, a teenaged Prince Philip, later to be Queen Elizabeth's husband, was also photographed alongside Nazis at his sister's funeral in Germany.

But maybe the source of the support was something deeper. Was it David's deep desire for peace among the nations? Maybe he genuinely thought a dictatorship was a better governing system than a democracy or a weakened constitutional monarchy. After witnessing the horrors of World War I, maybe he thought appeasing Hitler was the way toward peace. But of course, the Nazis were far from peaceful. If David's noble goal was less suffering, then we have to ask for who? Which brings us, of course, to racism. David was known to make derogatory comments about Jewish people, indigenous Australians, and who he called, quote, the Negro. Though he and while a simpson, did also work to improve labor rights and infant health for the largely black population

of the Bahamas where they would spend much of the Second World War. It feels strange to even try to tease out how racist a person's individual views are when they were rubbing elbows with Hitler. But when we're trying to figure out David's motivations here, I think it's worth noting that on a personal level, David probably wasn't in full philosophical alignment with how vile and violent Hitler's ideas on racial purity were. But David was more than willing to overlook those horrific policies and socialize with the Nazi high brass. So why? Though David told himself a narrative about preserving peace,

in my opinion, at the end of the day, it was a matter of ego and self-interest. David's much-loved bride was never treated well by his family or the British royals, but over in Germany, Hitler was all too happy to flatter her. Rumor had it that David dreamed of actually being reinstated as king with Wallace as queen after Hitler's victory, with the support of German troops against the British people. The two of them felt so excluded by the British monarchy that Hitler and the Germans represented a promise to be included.

But before you feel even a moment of sympathy for David or pity for his naivete, remember, David's very presence was serving as a support to Hitler and a regime that would go on to slaughter 6 million Jews in concentration camps during the Holocaust, a regime that would methodically murder Romani people, homosexuals, political dissenters, and people with disabilities. By the time that David arrived in Germany in 1937, the Reichstag had already passed laws restricting citizenship to only, quote, racially pure Germans. They had already banned intermarriage and sexual relationships between

Jewish people and those of, quote, German or related blood in order to protect their racial purity. By 1937, Jewish businesses were being, quote, Aryanized. Jewish employees dismissed and Jewish business owners forced to sell their licenses for pennies to non-Jewish Germans. Jewish lawyers had their licenses revoked, and Jewish doctors were forbidden from practicing medicine on non-Jews. The very next year, all Jewish Germans with names that weren't explicitly Jewish, would be forced to add either Sarat, or Israel as middle names legally. When David arrived in Germany, he would have seen the sign across the country

reading, Youdn Sintir Univinjt. Jews are not wanted here. And still, David smiled for the cameras. Whether or not David was thinking about the horrors that were currently happening in Germany at the time, or simply permitting himself not to think about them,

those horrors were absolutely already present, and David was willing to happily turn the other cheek in order to serve his own personal interests. Perhaps he would be reinstated king one day, seated next to his beloved, twice-divorced queen, even if he had to be put there by force. After the war, David did not retake the throne. He settled in France with Wallace. After all his many affairs, he likely wound up faithful and ever adoring toward Wallace, even as the rumors of her philandering never stopped. His brother, Bertie, died in 1952, and Queen Elizabeth ascended to the throne. The unlikely monarch, queen only because of David's abdication,

which would also pave the way for Charles and Diana and William and Harry and all of the tabloid royals we know today. Queen Elizabeth did have some small relationship with her Uncle David, but he was never admitted back into the royal fold. In 1951, David wrote a memoir of his early life, The King's Story, which was absolutely torn to shreds critically. Descriptions like inconceivable banality and monumental artificiality pepper the reviews.

But the audience score was certified fresh, and the book was a bestseller. Not to be outdone, Wallace wrote her own tell-off. The Heart has its reasons, which went through multiple ghost writers who accused her of dishonesty before the book sold terribly. Finally, following one last bedside visit

from Queen Elizabeth in Paris, the Duke of Windsor, David, died of throat cancer on May 28, 1972. He was 77 years old. He was buried in the Royal Burial Ground in England. Wallace outlived him by 15 years before being buried beside him. As of only seven years before his death, they had been planning to be buried at the Green Mount Cemetery in Baltimore,

final resting place of famous American traitor John Wilkes Booth, Lincoln's assassin. And those photos of the Duke with Hitler, which live on, More than anything, they're a vision of an alternate path that history could have taken. The sheer unlikelyhood of the path we did take. To think, had Wallace's earlier marriage been happy, perhaps we would have had a king of England who supported the Nazis. Perhaps the world order would look unrecognizable to us today. Hitler himself said so, quote,

If he had stayed, meaning on the throne, everything would have been different, end quote. But also, as David said on CBS while promoting those tell-alls, quote, we both feel that there is no more wasteful or foolish or frustrating exercise than trying to penetrate the fiction of what might have been, end quote. As for the most scandalous of those photos, the image of David raising his arm in the Nazi salute, In 2015, when that photo went up for sale at auction, nobody bought it.

That's the story of the short reign of England Nazi King, but stick around after a brief sponsor break to hear a little bit more about the wild history of the Marburg files. What's up, everyone? I'm Ego Vodom. My next guest, you know from Stepbrothers, Anchorman, Saturday Night Live, and The Big Money Players Network. It's Will Ferrell. My dad gave me the best advice ever. I went and had lunch with him one day, and I was like,

and Dad, I think I want to really give this a shot. I don't know what that means, but I just know the groundlings. I'm working my way up through, and I know it's a place that come look for up-and-coming talent. He said, if it was based solely on talent, I wouldn't worry about you, which is really sweet. Yeah. He goes, but there's so much luck involved. And he's like, just give it a shot. He goes, but if you ever reach a point where you're banging your head against the wall and it doesn't feel fun anymore, it's okay to quit.

If you saw it written down, it would not be an inspiration. It would not be on a calendar of, you know, the cat. Just hang in there. Yeah, it would not be. Right, it wouldn't be that. There's a lot of luck. Listen to Thanks Dad on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts. up everyone. I'm Ago Wodom. My next guest, you know from Step Brothers Anchorman, Saturday Night

Live, and the Big Money Players Network. It's Will Ferrell. My dad gave me the best advice ever. I went and had lunch with them one day and I was like, and dad, I think I want to really give this a shot. I don't know what that means, but I just know the groundlings. I'm working my way up through and I know it's a place they come look for up and coming talent. He said if it was based solely on talent, wouldn't worry about you, which is really sweet. Yeah. He goes, but there's so much luck involved. And he's like, just give it a shot.

He goes, but if you ever reach a point where you're banging your head against the wall and it doesn't feel fun anymore, it's okay to quit. If you saw it written down, it would not be an inspiration. It would not be on a calendar of, you know, the cat. Just hang in there. Yeah, it would not be. Right, it wouldn't be that. There's a lot of luck.

Yeah. Listen to Thanks Dad on the IHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. As I was researching this episode, something kept sticking out to me. The speed at which people do conflate a Nazi sympathizer king with the possibility of a Nazi England. And yes, those photos of Edward VIII are shocking, but I'm an American and I'm here thinking, wasn't England even then meant to be a representative democracy? Isn't it the Prime Minister, Chamberlain, and then Churchill, who made the political decisions

while the monarchy was just a figurehead? I mean, the Parliament serves the people, right? Well, nothing shows the clash of the American versus the British government's approach to monarchy quite like the history of the Marburg Files. These were the 400 tons of Nazi Germany's foreign ministry archives, discovered in 19, and assembled in Marburg Castle. This is not the castle that inspired Disney, that honor belongs to a different German castle covered in this podcast,

but it looks like a cousin. Within this massive trove of archives were the Windsor files, documents pertaining to David's activities during the war. Unsurprisingly, these files suggested Nazi sympathy on the part of the former king. Unsurprisingly, the British royal family wanted the files suppressed. Perhaps more surprisingly, though, the royals weren't alone. The people and entities pushing American historians not to publish the documents ranged from Winston Churchill to Dwight D. Eisenhower.

The U.S. State Department got word that the British government would simply inform the American editors which documents to leave out in deference to the feelings of the widowed queen mother, David's mom. Churchill himself told Eisenhower the, quote, historical importance of the documents was, quote, negligible, while publishing them would cause the Duke, quote, distress and injury. Essentially, U.S. editors and academics were treated as though they were operating at the pleasure of the hurt feelings of the British monarchy. Didn't we fight a revolution about this? Were American historians really meant to defer to the English royal sense of embarrassment? Parliament, the Crown, the White House, they all cited a duty to the grievance and pain of the powerful royal family. I would argue

what about a duty to history and the many, many victims of World War II? Wartime allyship can only go so far. The Windsor files were finally published in 1957, as far as we know. Editor Paul R. Sweet says they're intact. He also notes that they were published with a statement from the Queen's Stationery Office. Quote, the German records are necessarily a much tainted source. This is undoubtedly correct. They are German wartime documents. They likely have an agenda, but it is odd to spend so much energy on covering up a thing that isn't true.

Noble Blood is a production of IHeart Radio and Grimm and Mild from Aaron Manky. Noble Blood is hosted by me, Dana Schwartz. Additional writing and researching done by Hannah Johnston, Hannah Zwick, Mira Hayward, Courtney Sender, and Lori Goodman. The show is produced by Rima Il-Kaali, with supervising producer Josh Thain. and executive producers Aaron Manky, Alex Williams, and Matt Frederick. For more podcasts from IHeartRadio, visit the IHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. Hey, I'm Dr. Maya Shunker, a cognitive scientist and hosts of the podcast, a slight change

of plans, a show about who we are and who we become when life makes other plans. I wish that I hadn't resisted for so long the need to change. We have to be willing to live with a kind of uncertainty that none of us likes. You can have opinions. You can have like a strong stance. And then there's your body having its own program. Listen to a slight change of plans on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This is an IHeart podcast. Guaranteed human.