Noble Blood - The Thousand-Day Conclave

Episode Date: July 1, 2025

Continuing the theme of exploring Papal history, we discuss Gerbert of Aurillac, AKA Pope Sylvester II, who's scientific and mathmatical mind lead him to the highest seat of Catholic power. But after his death, detractors and enemies would spin his story into one of dark arts and deals with the devil. Support Noble Blood: — Bonus episodes, stickers, and scripts on Patreon— Order Dana's book, 'Anatomy: A Love Story' and its sequel 'Immortality: A Love Story'See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an I-heart podcast. Guaranteed Human. What's up, everyone? I'm Ago Vodam. My next guest, it's Will Ferrell. Woo, woo, woo, woo. My dad gave me the best advice ever. He goes, just give it a shot.

But if you ever reach a point where you're banging your head against the wall and it doesn't feel fun anymore, it's okay to quit. If you saw it written down, it would not be an inspiration. It would not be on a calendar of, you know, The cat, just hang in there. Yeah, it would not be. Right, it wouldn't be that. There's a lot of luck.

Listen to Thanks, Dad, on the IHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome to Noble Blood, a production of IHeart Radio and grim and mild from Aaron Manky. Listener discretion advised. In the early evening on May 8, 2025, white smoke billowed from the Sistine Chapel in Rome, a new pope had been elected. Onlookers in the Vatican City and across the world waited with bated breath for over an hour, their eyes trained on the central loggia of St. Peter's Basilica, where the new pontiff's identity and regnal name would be announced after fewer than two days of voting. Before too long, Cardinal Dominique Memberti emerged to share with the world that the new head of the Catholic Church, would be the former Cardinal Robert Prevost, now Leo the 14th. As Mombardy put it in the traditional Latin,

we have a new pope. This papal conclave, which turned out to be among the shortest in history, although not the shortest and not too much shorter than the previous two papal elections, inspired a great deal of public interest. Leo's predecessor, Pope Francis, was a wide, beloved figure, and many people in the Catholic world and beyond were deeply invested in whether and how the new pontiff would carry on his legacy. Perhaps spurred on by the success of the 2024 film Conclave, many people were also intrigued by the rituals and secrecy, defining the election process to select a new pope. In fact, many of the rules governing this This two-day conclave and every conclave for hundreds of years stem from the events of a single papal election in the past.

The longest conclave in history, and in many ways the first conclave in history, started in 1268 and took nearly three years changing the way, hopes are a chosen forever. I'm Dana Schwartz, and this is Noble Blood. Clement the 4th was on his deathbed. It was 1268, and he had sat on the throne of St. Peter for just under four years. He had lived a full life. He had fought in war, studied law, married, and had two daughters, all before becoming a widower and joining the church. And he had made some important achievements during his reign, having summoned the

now Saint Thomas Aquinas to serve as papal theologian, and he made strides towards diplomatic relations with the Mongols. Despite his achievements, however, much of Clements pontificate had been defined by the conflict between the papal loyalist Guelphs and the anti-Papal Ghibolines. You might remember those factions from our episode on the Cannibal Count of Pisa, who by this time was already beginning to betray his Gibiline sympathies. The election in which Clement had become Pope, which began in 1264 and lasted around four months, had seen significant debate among the College of Cardinals

about how best to protect the papacy from Ghiboline threats. Clement, who was French in origin, in fact, had had to travel to Italy in disguise upon his election to the papacy in order to protect himself from Gibilene violence. Clement had reigned throughout the entirety of his pontificate from Viterbo, a city some 50 miles northwest of Rome, which had been the seat of the papacy since 1257, when Pope Alexander IV had moved the papal Curia there in the wake of excessive violence in Rome. That violence in Rome had continued during the papal.

of Clement's immediate predecessor, Urban IV, and into Clement's papacy. In 1566, Clement had overseen the completion of construction begun under Alexander the 4th and commissioned by the Viterbin Captain of the People to convert the Bishop's Palace in Viterbo into a bona fide papal residence, which became known as the Palazzo de Puppi, or the Palace of the Popes. Clement was devoted to protecting the independence of the papacy. Most notably, he allied with Charles I of Anjou, the younger brother of King Louis I of France, in his controversial conquest of Naples,

offering him the throne in exchange for an acknowledgement of the Pope as the feudal lord. Fortified with papal support and papal funding, Charles defeated the Holy Roman Emperor's illegitimate son and heir, Manfred King of Sicily, whose Ghiboline ties as a member of the powerful Hoenstaufen family and refusal to acknowledge the Pope's feudal power had made him an enemy of the Holy See. Manfred had usurped power from his young nephew, Conradin, the last legitimate heir of the House of Hoenstuffin.

Manfred was killed by Charles' forces in the Battle of Benevinto in 1266, allowing Charles to take control of Naples. Conradin, who had been a teenager at that time, attempted to reclaim Naples and was captured some two years later in the Battle of Taglioccozzo. He was imprisoned and eventually publicly beheaded on Charles' orders on October 29th, 1268. Later detractors would spread the rumor that Clement, the Pope, had supported Charles's ruthless tactics, decrying his complicity in the death of the young king. But in fact, Clement had actually pleaded for Charles to have mercy on the boy. Nevertheless, by allowing Charles to take control of Naples, Clement cemented French power in Italy, which many cardinals saw as a threat to the independence of the papacy, and that of the Italian city states they hailed from in and of itself.

Exactly one month after Conradin's beheading, on November 29, 1268, Clement died, following what was reportedly a brief illness. Despite the achievement of his pontificate, he was. left behind not only the vacant throne of St. Peter, but also a cardinalet divided on how best to fill it. In 1268, the Sacred College boasted 20 cardinals, 19 of whom participated in the papal election. The 20th was busy accompanying Louis the 9th of France on his crusade in Tunisia. In keeping with the tradition of holding the papal election in the city where the previous pope had died, The 19 Cardinals made their way to Viterbo in late November, once word had reached them of the death of Clement the 4th.

The Cardinals oversaw his burial in the Dominican convent of Santa Maria in Grady, which stood just outside of the city before beginning the election proceedings just two days after his death on December 1st, 1268. Immediately, it became clear that this conclave would not be straightforward. Along with the Cardinal's arrival, had come that of Charles of Anjou, the newly crowned and bloodthirsty king of Naples. Clement had underestimated Charles's ambitions for an Italian empire, and with the Pope's death, Charles had seen an opportunity to continue to consolidate power. He came to Viterbo with the intention of influencing the papal election. The issue of Charles' presence and his clear intentions for the election and thereafter quickly became the central issue dividing the cardinals. It's impossible to note the numbers with any accuracy, but it seems that there was an even enough split between those who wanted to continue the pro-French tradition of the previous two popes and those who wanted to divorce the papacy from Charles's influence.

Not to mention those who were out to elevate their own allies, countrymen, and family members. The election was essentially deadlocked from the start. At first, the Cardinals passed freely between the cathedral and their lodgings. They held only one vote each day, which day after day resulted in nothing but further tensions and no clear frontrunner for Pope. Although we know very little about the actual deliberation, or candidates considered for the papacy, it's likely that at least a few of the cardinals present were considered papubuli,

or potential candidates for pope. Although it was not necessary to be a cardinal to be elected pope, technically it still isn't, and other important figures in the church hierarchy were considered. Given the fact that the cardinals were free to move about as they pleased, It's also likely that they were subject to outside pressure and influence, perhaps most notably from Charles, who would remain in Viterbo throughout the election proceedings. Later sources would have it that two months in, the cardinals nearly agreed on electing

Philippo Benizzi, the general of the Servite order. It's likely that this story isn't true and was rather a fabrication meant to support Benetzi's later canonization, but he supposedly came to Viterbo in early 1269 to scold the Cardinals for dragging their feet in the electoral process. They were apparently so impressed with Benizzi that they chose him to fill the empty papal throne, but he fled the city to prevent his election, forcing the cardinals back to square one. A similar, also likely untrue story of near election, would also crop up long after the fact concerning St. Bonaventure, then known as Giovanni de Fidamza. In any case, no Pope was indeed elected in those first few months, and the voting continued apace.

Just under a year after the election had begun, a new wrench was thrown into the proceedings when one of the electors died. Cardinal Giordano Pironte died of unknown causes on. October 1st, 1269, at about 59 years old. He had updated his will a few weeks prior, so he may have been ill, and with his death only 18 electors remained, an even number that did not bode well for breaking any future ties. It seems Cardinal Perunty's death was something of a turning point for the secular authorities in Viterbo, though it would take them several more months to take action. Around June, 1270, after the anniversary of the last Pope's death came and went, and the erstwhile cardinals entered their 20th month of unsuccessful voting, Ranniero Gatti, the prefect

of Viterbo and Albertus de Montebone, the Podesta, ordered that the remaining electors be sequestered in the Palazzo di Papi until they could choose the Pope's successor once and for all. These were drastic times and the time had long passed for drastic measures, and before long it would seem that even more drastic measures would be needed to get these cardinals to finally make their choice. In the late summer of 1271, a teenage Marco Polo was just beginning the journey that would cement him as one of history's most famous travelers. He had set off from Venice with his father, Niccolo, and his uncle, Mafaio, and after a short eastward journey across the Mediterranean,

they had arrived in the fortified city of Ocker, a crusader stronghold on the Levantine coastline. It was there that they met Archdeacon Teobaldo Visconti of Peacenza, who had followed Edward the First of England to Ocker in the Ninth Crusade earlier that year. During their visit, the Polos lamented to the archdeacon that the papal throne was still vacant after over two years of fruitless voting. Marco's father and uncle had previously traveled to China, where the emperor, Kubla Khan, had given them a letter for the Pope. They had been disappointed to return in 1269 to find that they still had no one to give it to. That was almost two years ago. Now, here the brothers were making their way eastward again, now with Marco, and still, no news from Viterbo. They had been shocked

when an elector died in 1269, and even more so, some six months later, when the Viterban authorities ordered that the remaining cardinals be locked away in the Palazzo de Papi to complete their election. Around the same time, it was suggested, supposedly by the English Cardinal John of Toledo, that the roof of the voting chamber in the palazzo should be removed, saying, let us uncover the room, else the Holy Ghost will never get at us. For you papal election fans following along at home, this was the first recorded reference to the now essential idea that the Holy Spirit guides the election of popes. It was also suggested that the elector's rations be reduced to just bread and water for the remainder of the election. The magistrates of Viterbo agreed, likely hoping that some scorching sun,

torrential rain, and stupefying hunger would guide the electors, in addition to the Holy Spirit, of course. The cardinals petitioned the magistrates that Cardinal Henry of Seguzio be excused from the remainder of the election due to health concerns, which would have been exacerbated by having to spend every day hungry and exposed to the elements. He had renounced his right to vote, and his request was granted. The remaining 17 cardinals were locked into the palace, the doors and windows barred, and the roof of the voting chamber was removed. Some sources say that a makeshift roof was later added back

onto the election chamber after the Cardinals threatened to excommunicate the entire city. But it seems that they actually at least took their new diet in stride. By the time Marco Polo

his father and his uncle met with the Archdeacon in Ocker in 1271, it had been almost a year since the Cardinal electors had been locked up. In that time, yet another cardinal elector had died.

East van Banksa, the first cardinal to hail from Hungary. Cardinal Henry of Segucio had enough time to fully recuperate and return to Viterbo to resume voting. King Louis I of France died and was succeeded by his son Philip, who became Philip III. In his as-yet-unanswered letter to the as-yet-unanswered pope, Kubla Khan had requested the dispatch of a hundred missionaries and some oil from the lamp of the Holy Sepulchre in Jerusalem to his court in where is now known as Beijing. The Polos told Archdeacon Visconti of those requests and of their predicament in having to wait so long to make good on them because there wasn't a Pope to ask. The Archdeacon told the Polo family to bide their time by traveling to Jerusalem

to fetch the oil first. And hopefully, by the time they finished and returned, there would be a new pope. They did that and returned to Ocker to find that a pope still had not been chosen. Unable to justify keeping the polos from their journey indefinitely, the Sconti sent them on their way. The polos did not make it far, however, before receiving an urgent message to return to Ocker. In August 1271, under pressure from the new King Philip III and Charles Vangu, the authorities in Viterbo and just about everyone else,

the cardinal electors had decided to choose the Pope by committee, selecting six among their numbers and agreeing to abide by whatever decision they came to. Through this method, on September 1st, 1271, after 1,06 days of voting, they finally came to a decision. From the roofless palace in Viterbo, the message of the Cardinal's choice traveled across the Mediterranean to Ocker, with the Archdeacon, who was not a Cardinal or even a priest, was notified that he had been chosen to fill the papal throne

that had been empty for nearly three years. As someone with some ties to France, but not so many, that he would be a puppet of the French crown or of Charles of Anjou, he was an unexpected candidate that apparently was satisfying enough for all parties. It is unknown how long his name had been in contention, but the struggle of the six cardinal committee to select a pope from among the cardinal electors at first suggests he may have been a last minute, consideration. The polos made it back to Ocker not long after and were received warmly by their friend, who had suddenly become the head of the church and the prince of the papal states. He formally designated them envoys of the church to Kubla Khan and sent them on their journey with two friars and a collection of gifts meant to demonstrate his hopes for friendly relations with the emperor.

He offered a special blessing to Marco, by which the young traveler was reportedly greatly pleased. Teobaldo Visconti left to Acker on November 9th, 1271, and reached Viterbo some months later on February 12, 1272, where he took the regnal name Gregory the 10th. Breaking the years-long absence of the popes from Rome, he entered the city a month later in March, and was ordained a priest six days later. Finally, on March 27, 1272, over three years after the death of the previous Pope, he was consecrated a bishop and crowned in St. Peter's Basilica. Gregory's papacy lasted for only a little over four years. His reign was consequential. On July 7, 1274, his papal bull, Ubi Periculum, named for its opening line,

Mayus Intenditur, meaning where great danger lies, codified many of the practices desperately undertaken to speed along his election as standard practice for the election of future popes. In addition to already established practices like the rule requiring a two-thirds majority for a ballot to pass, Gregory ordained that the cardinal electors should be sequestered for the duration of the election, specified the provision of increasingly spare rations the longer the proceedings endured, and placed various restrictions meant to both speed proceedings and prevent political intrigue, bribery, and deal-making, among other new rules. Although some later popes would lift these restrictions, Gregory's Bull would go on to be codified into canon law in 1298, and though

conclave practices have seen many changes and updates since, it remains a foundational part of the way modern papal elections are conducted. Gregory X died in the Tuscan city of Atrezzo on January 10, 1276. In accordance with his bull, which specified that the election should begin 10 days later if all electors had arrived at his place of death by then, the conclave convened right on schedule on January 20th. It concluded with the election of Pope Innocent the 5th just one day later. That's the story of the longest ever papal election, but keep listening after a brief sponsor break to hear about another fascinating aspect of the legacy of Gregory the 10th. What's up, everyone? I'm Ego Wadom. My next guest, you know from Stepbrothers, Anchorman, Saturday

Night Live and the Big Money Players Network. It's Will Ferrell. Woo. Woo. My dad gave me the best advice ever. I went and had lunch with them one day. And I was like, and Dad, I think I want to really give this a shot. I don't know what that means, but I just know the groundlings.

I'm working my way up through. And I know it's a place that come look for up and coming talent. He said, if it was based solely on talent, I wouldn't worry about you. Which is really sweet. Yeah. He goes, but there's so much luck involved. and he's like just give it a shot he goes but if you ever reach a point where you're banging your head against the wall and it doesn't feel fun anymore it's okay to quit if you saw it written down it would

not be an inspiration it would not be on a calendar of you know the cat just hang in there yeah it would not be right it wouldn't be that there's a lot of luck yeah listen to thanks dad on the iHeart radio app Apple Podcast or wherever you get your podcast. What's up, everyone? I'm Ago Vodam. My next guest, you know from Step Brothers Anchorman, Saturday Night Live, and the Big Money Players Network. It's Will Ferrell. My dad gave me the best advice ever. I went and had lunch with them one day, and I was like, and Dad, I think I want to really give this a shot. I don't know what that means, but I just know

the groundlings. I'm working my way up through, and I know it's a lot. I know it's. place they come look for up-and-coming talent. He said, if it was based solely on talent, I wouldn't worry about you, which is really sweet. Yeah. He goes, but there's so much luck involved. And he's like, just give it a shot. He goes, but if you ever reach a point where you're banging your head against the wall and it doesn't feel fun anymore, it's okay to quit. If you saw it written down, it would not be an inspiration.

It would not be on a calendar of, you know, the cat. Just hang in there. Yeah, it would not be. Right, it wouldn't be that. There's a lot of luck. Listen to Thanks, Dad, on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Among the many questions that arose in the weeks leading up to Leo the 14th election, what the new Pope's stance would be on social and doctrinal issues, where he would hail from, etc.,

was the question, what would he wear? A Pope's first public appearance has always been his first first. statement to the world, a declaration of what kind of pope he would be even before he opened his mouth. When Leo's predecessor, Pope Francis, was elected in 2013, he famously bucked tradition by foregoing the red mozetta and or Nate Stoll, typically worn by newly elected popes, and appearing in a simple white cossack, a move that endeared him to many who believed the papacy too removed from the lives and experiences of the common people. While Leo's Ubi et Orby address, which means to the city and the world, the first address made by newly elected popes, reflected a clear desire to

continue France's legacy, he chose to wear the Mozzetta and the stole, perhaps symbolizing that he also intended to put his own stamp on the papacy. But since then, he's mostly been seen wearing just the white Cossack, as is standard for most everyday papal duties, like meeting with foreign dignitaries, greeting worshippers, or riding in the Popemobile. And in fact, we have our old friend Gregory the 10th to thank for that important part of papal sartorial history. While garments like the Mozzetta or the Mitra the big hat that the Pope and bishops wear during certain liturgical celebrations have been worn by popes since at least the 11th century, if not before? It was Gregory, who is first documented wearing the white cassock during his reign. Over 700 years later, it remained an iconic symbol of the

papacy. Talk about a trendsetter. Noble Blood is a production of I-Heart Radio and grim and mild from Aaron Mankey. Noble Blood is hosted by me, Dana Schwartz, with additional writing and research by Hannah Johnston, Hannah Zwick, Courtney Sender, Amy Height, and Julia Milani. The show is edited and produced by Jesse Funk, with supervising producer Rima Il Kali, and executive producers Aaron Manky, Trevor Young, and Matt Frederick. For more podcasts from IHeartRadio, visit the IHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. Everyone, I'm Ago Vodom.

My next guest, it's Will Ferrell. my dad gave me the best advice ever. He goes, just give it a shot. But if you ever reach a point where you're banging your head against the wall and it doesn't feel fun anymore, it's okay to quit. If you saw it written down, it would not be an inspiration. It would not be on a calendar of, you know, the cat. Just hang in there. Yeah, it would not be.

Right, it wouldn't be that. There's a lot of luck. Yeah. Listen to Thanks Dad on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This is an IHeart podcast. Guaranteed human.