Noble Blood - The Tragic True-Crime Life of Lady Lucan

Episode Date: September 12, 2023

[CONTENT WARNING: this episode contains depictions of violence and spousal abuse.] On November 7, 1974, John Bingham, 7th Earl of Lucan committed a horrible crime: attacking his wife, Veronica, Lady Lucan, and murdering their nanny, Sandra Rivett, in the family's quiet Belgravia home. But it's what happened after that turned the story into a true-crime legend: the morning after the murder, Lord Lucan disappeared. Support Noble Blood: — Bonus episodes, stickers, and scripts on Patreon — Merch! — Order Dana's book,  'Anatomy: A Love Story' and its sequel 'Immortality: A Love Story'See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an I-heart podcast. Guaranteed Human. What's up, everyone? I'm Ago Vodam. My next guest, it's Will Ferrell. Woo, woo, woo, woo. My dad gave me the best advice ever. He goes, just give it a shot.

But if you ever reach a point where you're banging your head against the wall and it doesn't feel fun anymore, it's okay to quit. If you saw it written down, it would not be an inspiration. It would not be on a calendar of, you know, The cat just hang in there. Yeah, it would not be. Right, it wouldn't be that. There's a lot of luck.

Listen to Thanks, Dad, on the IHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome to Noble Blood, a production of IHeart Radio and grim and mild from Aaron Manky. Listener discretion advised. Thursday, November 7th, 1974. The residential London neighborhood of Belgraving, was known back in the Tudor period as a hotspot for highwaymen and robberies, but by the 1970s it was considered a quiet space in the heart of the city. Today, the neighborhood's Lower Belgrave Street has its own wiki page with four notable residents listed,

Two writers, the wife of a Nicaraguan dictator, and John Bingham, the 7th Earl of Lucan. The night of November 7th, Lucan's estranged wife, Veronica, was home with the couple's children and their nanny, a woman named Sandra Rivet. Thursday was normally Rivet's night off, the evening she would go out with her boyfriend. but Sandra switched her schedule that week and had seen her boyfriend the night before. A little before nine, Sandra Rivett, put the youngest children to bed, and asked Lady Lucan if she wanted a cup of tea. After a while, Veronica began to wonder what was taking the nanny so long,

and so she headed downstairs to the home's basement kitchen. She made it to the top of the basement stairs, where she was struck by a metal pipe. According to later testimony, Veronica screamed for her life and then recognized her attacker's voice as her husbands when he told her to shut up. A struggle ensued. Lucan only released the grip on his wife's throat when Veronica. Veronica managed to grab his testicles, and he gave up the fight. With tensions slightly calmer for the moment, Veronica asked her husband where Rivet was. At first he was evasive. Finally, he admitted she was dead. In an attempt to placate her husband and by herself some time,

Veronica suggested she would help him dispose of the body, but that she had to stay in the house until her wounds from their earlier fight were healed. Her gambit was successful. Lucan agreed, and when he went into the bathroom to get a wet towel, Veronica realized he wouldn't be able to hear her over the running water. She fled the house and successfully ran to a nearby pub. the plumber's arms. The story of the Luchin's captivated the nation and continues to perplex true crime fans to this day, not only because it was a murder case involving nobility,

but because of the incredibly mysterious circumstances of the crime's aftermath. In 1975, Lord Luchin was found guilty of the murder. murder of Sandra Rivet, but he wasn't there to hear his sentence, nor did he serve his time. In fact, the last time Lord Lucan was seen was the day after the murder, November 8, 1974. Lord Lucan simply disappeared. Despite being legally declared dead twice, the whereabouts. and status of Lord Lucan remain a mystery to this day. Lady Lucan's opinion has oscillated over the years,

from her being convinced her husband was still alive at times in the decades following his disappearance, to the staunch belief that he must be dead. Described in her 2017 obituary by the New York Times as imperious and wickedly witty, Lady Lucan's life was documented from 1974 up until her death through a series of interviews and reflections about the fateful day in question and the abusive marriage that preceded it. Her marriage has largely defined not only her public image, but her life. Lord Lucan may, or may not, have been able to escape with what he had done,

but Lady Lucan was the one who had to live with it. I'm Dana Schwartz, and this is Noble Blood. Lady Lucan was born Veronica Mary Duncan on May 3, 1937, in the coastal English town of Bournemouth. Her father, a major during the First World War, died in a car accident when Veronica was only two years old, which meant Veronica and her younger sister, Christina, were raised entirely by their mother.

The sisters' childhoods were spent between England and South Africa, where their mother remarried, and then Veronica would settle in London as a young adult. She spent her first years out of her first years, out of school doing what many do, throwing interests and possible careers at the wall, and seeing what stuck. She went from art school to helping out in her stepfather's bar, to modeling school, to learning shorthand, which eventually led to becoming the director of a small printing company. She recalls she didn't date much during this period of her life, but that would change in

1963. That year, Veronica's younger sister Christina married William Shand Kid, the son of a wallpaper magnet, and the sisters were both introduced to London Society. If that name or the phrase British wallpaper magnet is ringing some kind of bell for you, you probably know a lot about Lady die. William Shandkid's brother, Peter Shandkid, was Princess Diana's stepfather. It was at a London society function, a golf club, actually, where Veronica first saw Lord John Bingham, eldest son of George Bingham, 6th Earl of Lucan. Although their exchange was brief, he stood out to Veronica among the other men present. Quote, he looked like a gentleman almost in caricature,

Veronica recalled in her memoir. It's a good description. John was, apparently, briefly considered for the role of James Bond before Sean Connery beat him out for it, probably on the grounds of acting experience. That was March. Veronica wouldn't see John again until August, when John visited Christina and her husband at their country house in the south of France, and, remembering Christina's sister, Veronica, asked for her to join.

Christina was wary of the potential match, warning Veronica that, he's got socialist parents, he's a professional gambler, and he's said to be queer. Quite untrue, Veronica would reflect on the last bit, but no one could deny John's gambling addiction. He had first picked up the taste for it as a student at Shocker Eaton College, before becoming a regular at the Claremont Club as an adult. He would sometimes win, but his losses were often bigger. Once he found himself out 10,000 pounds in one night. She recalled that the two spent time together during this trip, but Veronica didn't feel a spark,

and she was surprised to learn he was interested in her when he asked her out following their return to London. He was apparently impatient to sleep with her, and they did so after a few dates. John's passion, it appears, was even more intense, though, when it came to powerboats. He had spent all of his money buying one, which he called white migrant, and had his sights set on winning the Daily Express powerboat race. Quote, he was obsessive about gambling and everything else he was interested in. Veronica reflected. She also later observed that spending all your money on a boat was a silly thing for someone without a job to do. quote, why would I work in a bank when I can earn a year's money in a single night at the tables?

John once told a colleague after he lost out on a promotion and quit. Apparently his boating aspirations weren't totally far out. White migrant was leading the race for some time. Before it sank then and there during the race, leaving John's only asset at the bottom. of the English Channel. Despite what was perhaps a perfect symbol, Veronica did not see the fate of the white migrant

as representative of their budding relationship. It seemed they were headed toward marriage, both feeling like it was time to take the step. Quote, you haven't got a line on your face, John said, praising the youthful appearance of his then, wait for it, 26-year-old girlfriend. Veronica reflected with a sort of tragic honesty in a 2017 documentary. I was getting on, she said, I was 26,

and in those days you were approaching being on the shelf. John was 29, and while men generally had a longer shelf life when it came to marriage then, he also felt it was time. Both of them seemed to have the idea that marriage was what they were supposed to do, not necessarily what they wanted. In all her descriptions, Veronica conveys the sense that the couple were attracted to each other, but that the relationship lacked a depth or intimacy beyond that. Whether this is something she realized in retrospect or her feelings at the time, however, we can't know.

One morning after the two spent the night at John's place, John woke Veronica up with the words, Will you marry me? In the documentary, Veronica recalled not being able to say anything at first, while in her memoir she even claims she fell back asleep. Will you marry me, he asked again, this time earning a reply. Yes, I will marry you.

Despite John's having no money, Veronica still believed, quote, to marry a peer of the realm was a coup on your part. Their engagement was announced in The Times in October 1963, with the headline, Lord Bingham to wed Business Girl, and the couple were married in December. It was sparsely attended on both sides, Veronica reflected, because neither of us were very popular. Their most famous guest was poor Princess Alice, as the bride called her sympathetically, who had attended because Veronica's mother-in-law

had been a lady in waiting. Veronica recalled one woman at the wedding, exclaiming, There's nobody here, and added that she was quite right. There was nobody, at least nobody of social interest, there at all.

One of the couple's wedding presents was 200 pounds to spend at John's beloved Claremont. club, from the club's owner, John Aspinall. Veronica later argued that her husband was useful to Aspinall, as looking like the poster child for British aristocracy conveyed a sense of legitimacy to foreign players in the club. Sitting beside her husband quietly as he gambled, Veronica noticed he was growing anxious, and she could tell it wasn't going well. John eventually got up and asked one of the club's directors to join the big game,

but he was sternly told, no, John, go home. In the car that night, John apologized to his wife, and when she asked him how much he had lost, he told her the truth. 8,000 pounds. At the time, his capital was 9,000 pounds. all of the insurance money he had received after his boat sank. Veronica performed what she considered, quote, her duty as a gambler's wife,

assuring her husband he could win it all back. But he, and I'm sure she, was in no place to be comforted. They spent a, quote, very unhappy Christmas. But in a dark twist of irony, it wouldn't be long for John to come in to plenty of money in January when his father died. John was now the 7th Earl of Lucan, and Veronica, a countess, money, land, and a title. Things were looking up for the couple after a messy start to their marriage. They soon sought to purchase a home after learning Veronica was pregnant,

and they finally found one they liked at 46 Lower Belgrave Street, which is where you'll recall the beginning of this episode began. In October, Veronica gave birth to the couple's first daughter, Francis. The chapter of Veronica's memoir titled Francis doesn't actually tell us anything about Francis. Instead, it consists of Veronica's memoir, Monica telling the reader about how she hired a nanny for Francis so that she and John could spend more time together at the Claremont Club. John, and by extension his wife, had an obsession with being seen, with being socially regarded, even if they weren't that popular or liked all that much.

The chapter then concludes, quote, at about that time, meaning 1916, I considered that it was time to start another child as I wanted to have a three-year gap between my first and second child. In the December of 1966, I became pregnant. In a somewhat less clinical manner, Veronica described in the 2017 documentary the expectations on women to produce children and the special pressure that was on her to have her to have. have a son. If you couldn't, she explained, your reputation was in tatters. Veronica's reputation was spared, however, as her next child was her son, George. As expressed earlier, children felt like a duty to Veronica, not a calling. So they were left to nannies. When she explained that to the documentarian, the documentarian expressed that to

an outsider, it appears that the relationship between Veronica and her children were cold. A cold relationship, she repeated, she paused. All my relationships are cold. In that same vein, her relationship with John lacked not only warmth, but familiarity. The couple used to travel extensively, but only to the places John considered most socially fashionable at the moment. Veronica recalls that she couldn't appreciate the places she was seeing, partly because she had no one really to share them with. He wasn't communicative, so you couldn't really enjoy it as a couple, she said. You were both on your own in a strange sort of way.

John once told Veronica, that's the point of being married. You don't have to talk to the person. Problems in their marriage took a darker turn, after John's general disinterest led to Veronica, becoming closer with a man named Grieville Howard, another frequent patron of the Claremont. What it seems to come down to is that Howard treated Veronica like the things she needed most in the world, like a friend, and she fell in love. It doesn't explicitly seem like the relationship ever got physical, but even if it did, the relationship was cut off before it could deepen, when John told Howard to get lost and he did.

This led to Veronica falling into a depression, likely compounded by untreated postpartum depression, and John took her to a psychiatrist for the first time. John brought Veronica to the Priory, a mental hospital in South London, under the pretense of simply going for a drive. When Veronica realized where they were, she took off running and both the doctor and her husband gave chase. They convinced her to come back and she was prescribed her first antipsychotic, Moditon. This was the beginning of a long battle. with John over accusations of Veronica's mental state. It's an incredibly delicate matter to discuss

the mental health of someone you don't know, let alone someone who's recalling the events of decades past in a memoir, but based on John's future behavior, it's fairly arguable to say he almost certainly did not have his wife's best interest at heart. You may have heard the term mother's little helpers used in the 1950s and 60s to refer to drugs like Valium, which were marketed toward housewives, effectively used as tranquilizers to help them cope with their unhappiness

by turning them into Stepford wives. These were usually sedatives and antidepressants, but Moditin was typically used to treat more extreme cases. like schizophrenia, despite no record of an official diagnosis for Veronica. She claimed the drugs worked, however only under the condition that the side effects were so terrible that they would make her forget about anything else that might be causing her problems. It's a terrible thing to be drugged, she would reflect, because you really are not in control. John had recently begun seeing new doctors, all men,

and Veronica began to see those same doctors, despite having had a female GP up until that point. Looking back, she says things might have been different if her doctor was a woman, as the male doctors believed everything her husband said about her mental health at complete face value. I can describe this period of Veronica's life best by letting you know that in these pages of her memoir, you stumble across a new drug name every couple of paragraphs. On top of the modatin, there were drugs for anxiety, drugs for sleeping, and drugs for mitigating the side effects of the other drugs.

Much of her life outside of her medication stayed the same. the Claremont Club, expensive holidays to keep up appearances, and even the birth of a third child, Camilla. But the way John treated Veronica changed. He didn't think he had to be nice to me anymore, Veronica recalled. She says he told her he would beat the mad ideas out of her before giving her 10 strokes with the cane. He did that three times total, Veronica claimed, and he would follow the beatings with affection and sex. The, quote, mad ideas, he referred to were likely Veronica's vocal concerns about the couple's financial troubles, at least based on letters that were found in their home after Veronica passed away in 2017. John, obsessed with keeping up the appearance of wealth, seemingly resented his wife's

dissent. Veronica also notes that the cane he used to beat her had had the end cut off and wrapped in plaster so that it wouldn't cut as much, which was how she knew the beatings were premeditated. The pipe that would be used in the murder of Sandra Riven. was similarly covered in plaster. The abuse would continue in other less physically drastic ways until January 1973, when John knocked Veronica over after she goosed him, which she claimed had always been a playful move between the two. He called a mental hospital for a doctor to come over,

and when the doctor arrived, John asked if Veronica was fit to look after the children. When the doctor said, yes, it seemed that she was, John packed his bags and left. After John was gone, the doctor stayed behind to inform Veronica that on Boxing Day, John had actually called the hospital to attempt to have Veronica involuntarily committed under the Mental Health Act of 1959. While Veronica was not committed, John did use accusations of mental instability to obtain a court order,

allowing him to take the children a few months later. This began a massive custody battle, in which John argued that his wife was, quote, seriously mentally disturbed, and that he feared for the safety. of their children. He submitted to the court's audio recordings of the fights the couple had, which Veronica claimed were edited to make them seem one-sided. That day, the court heard Veronica insult her husband, quote, miserable, weak, drooping little penis, and quote, and call him,

quote, a ventriloquist's dummy with a mustache stuck on your face. But apparently, apparently, John's deception didn't work, and coupled with John's claims that he, quote, needed to be out of the country and away from his children when he was really on holiday, the court did not see him favorably. On top of this, Veronica's doctors didn't support John's claims in court, and John was advised by his legal team to concede the case. Veronica believes John genuinely did not believe how much legal fees and losing would cost him, and John's finances fell into a worse state than they had ever been in. He turned to high-risk, low-reward gambling, and his debts began to pile. The official ruling was custody to the mother.

Veronica with a nanny, which meant Veronica needed to hire someone full-time. This was when she hired 29-year-old Sandra Rivett, whom she'd described as a good, kind, decent girl, woman, really. Veronica noted that even Francis liked her, and she was the most difficult to please. As they got to know each other, Veronica learned a bit about Sandra's background. She spent part of her childhood in Australia. She was one of three daughters. When she was 19, she got engaged and became pregnant, but by the time her son was born, the relationship had fallen apart, and her parents ended up adopting her child. Three years later, Sandra had had another son, who was also put up for adoption. She was divorce, having been in a lonely marriage, but she now had a steady boyfriend. She had long

red hair and a cat, Tara, who slept in her bed with her. I think this biographical information is important. The fact of the matter, unfortunately, is Veronica only knew Sandra for nine weeks before she was killed. I've already told you what happened that night through Veronica's retelling, but before John's disappearance, John actually told a different story. That same night, he drove home in his Ford Corsair and called his mother, telling her there had been, quote, a terrible catastrophe at 46, referring to their address. Before that, John apparently tried to go to a neighbor's house, the mother of one of Francis's friends, likely to tell the same story.

Following the call to his mother, John drove to his friend's Ian and Susan Maxwell Scott's house, but only Susan. was home. John told Susan he arrived to an intruder attacking his wife, and in a state of shock, Veronica thought he was the attacker, so he panicked and fled. Susan told reporters she believed his story entirely, even after John's disappearance. Speaking of which, John left the Maxwell Scott House at 1 a.m., and that was the last time he was ever seen. While he was at the house, he wrote several letters, one to his brother-in-law, Bill Shand Kid, detailing the same story he told to Susan, with the addition, When I interrupted the fight at Lower Belgrave Street and the man left,

Veronica accused me of having hired him. The circumstantial evidence against me is strong in that V will say it was all my doing. There was a sense of finality in the case. the letter, asking Bill to take care of the children in his absence, with no indication that he would return. The next day, the murder of Rivet, the beating of Lady Lucan, and the missing Lord, were already in the papers, quickly becoming national news. Veronica was admitted to the hospital for her injuries, and Sandra Rivett's death was declared a murder. On no-no-one. On no one, November 10th, John's Ford Corsair was found with a piece of lead pipe, covered in plaster,

and a full bottle of vodka in its trunk. A warrant was officially put out for his arrest, and details were issued to Interpol. After Veronica was discharged from the hospital, Veronica resumed custody of her children. She didn't speak much about the period following the murder and the disappearance beyond the nitty-gritty of the investigation. Her children, she claimed, were largely unaffected because they were so young. Whether that's true or not, Veronica remembered her youngest daughter, Camilla, remarking one day, I don't think daddy's coming back. No, I don't think he's coming back, Veronica responded.

Veronica believed her husband's fate was suicide, that, based on how much he knew about powerboating mechanics, he managed to get on a ferry and jump off into its propellers. At least that was her opinion in the 2017 documentary. But in a 1981 news program, she told the presenter that she was convinced he was alive. I was very heavily drugged at the time, Veronica reflected, confirming her earlier belief that,

once they start you on this step, it's very hard to get off the mental health regime. She believed her husband tried to kill her to solve his financial problems and to gain custody of the children he lost in court. He went mad with pressure, she posits. While her insights about her life before the murder oscillate between lacking and acute self-awareness, any reflection about life after the tragedy is closed off and clinical. The chapters of her memoir become procedural, simply detailing the investigation, and any details about her relationships with family and others are limited to brief mentions in the final

in conclusion chapter. That might also be because there weren't many relationships to talk about. Veronica never remarried, noting that it felt impossible to her, and her relationship with her children soured. She became heavily addicted to antidepressants, and in 1982, her sister Christina and her husband, Bill Shand Kidd, became the court-ordered foster parents of their nieces and nephew, who remained estranged from their mother from then up until her death.

She reflected in 2017 that she knew all was lost, but she had to accept that her children would have a better life without her than they could living with her. I once bumped into George in a park, she recalled, but we didn't say very much. Over the years, the children have also taken various stances on the guilt and status of their father, despite being so young at the time of the instant. In 2020, John Lucan was officially declared dead, so that George could inherit his title and become the eighth Earl of Lucan.

In 2017, Lady Lucan died at 80 years old from respiratory failure, caused by barbiturates and alcohol poisoning, and the coroner concluded the death was a suicide. Veronica believed she was developing Parkinson's, disease, even though she had not spoken to a doctor yet, and had been researching assisted suicide. Despite having not spoken to her children in over 50 years, all three of them attended her funeral. She finished her memoir, a moment in time, the very year she died, making the final edits and choosing the photos to include just weeks before she passed. The memoir concludes with the line,

I will eternally regret that an innocent woman died because of my relationship with my husband. That's the tragic story of Lady Lucan and Sandra Rivet, but keep listening after a brief sponsor break to hear more about the speculations of the fate of Lord Lucan. What's up, everyone? I'm Ego Wode. My next guest, you know from Step Brothers Anchorman, Saturday Night Live, and the Big Money Players Network. It's Will Farrell. My dad gave me the best advice ever.

I went and had lunch with them one day, and I was like, and Dad, I think I want to really give this a shot. I don't know what that means, but I just know the groundlings. I'm working my way up through, and I know it's a place that come, look for up-and-coming talent.

He said, if it was based solely on talent, I wouldn't worry about you, which is really sweet. Yeah. He goes, but there's so much luck involved. and he's like, just give it a shot. He goes, but if you ever reach a point where you're banging your head against the wall and it doesn't feel fun anymore, it's okay to quit.

If you saw it written down, it would not be an inspiration. It would not be on a calendar of, you know, the cat. Just hang in there. Yeah, it would not be. Right, it wouldn't be that. There's a lot of luck. Listen to Thanks, Dad, on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast.

What's up, everyone? I'm Ego Wadam. My next guest, you know from Step Brothers Anchorman, Saturday Night Live, and the Big Money Players Network. It's Will Ferrell. Woo.

Woo. My dad gave me the best advice ever. I went and had lunch with them one day, and I was like, and dad, I think I want to really give this a shot. I don't know what that means, but I just know the groundlings. I'm working my way up through,

and I know it's a place they come look for up and coming, talent. He said if it was based solely on talent, I wouldn't worry about you, which is really sweet. Yeah. He goes, but there's so much luck involved. And he's like, just give it a shot. He goes, but if you ever reach a point where you're banging your head against the wall and it doesn't feel fun anymore, it's okay to quit. If you saw it written down, it would not be an inspiration. It would not be on a calendar of, you know, the cat, just hang in there. Yeah. It would not be Right, it wouldn't be that. There's a lot in luck.

Yeah. Listen to Thanks, Dad, on the IHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. The disappearance of Lord Lucan, a seemingly powerful and well-connected man, who seemed to get away with murder, gave birth to no small number of conspiracy theories. An early apparent sighting actually turned out to be, brace yourself, the politician John Stonehead. who was attempting to fake his own death. When he was arrested, he was ordered to pull down his pants because Lucan had a six-inch scar on the inside of his right thigh. John Lord Lucan has been reported in France, Colombia, India,

Switzerland, Australia. You name the place, they've probably seen a guy that looks a little bit like the missing lord. One of the most interesting theories, however, popped up in 2020, spearheaded by Sandra Rivett's son. Neil Baraman, a builder from Hampshire, was Rivett's second son who had been put up for adoption, and he only found out who his birth mother was in 2008. His shock eventually turned to anger as he tried to learn more about his long-lost mother. Everything is about Lord Lucan.

Where did he go? he said. And Sandra is just a forgotten victim in the whole equation. Berman contacted Professor Hassan Ugail, a facial recognition expert, who concluded that an 87-year-old man living in a Buddhist community in Australia was in fact the missing Lord Lucan. It's him, he told the Daily Mail, This isn't opinion. That's a fact. However, when contacted by the Guardian, Professor Ugal explained, I can't 100% confirm it's Lord Lucan. It looks remarkably like him. It's worth

investigating further. Okay then. The 87-year-old man, for his part, denies being Lord Lucan, and the Metropolitan Police have eliminated him from the investigation. However, Bairman still continues his search. Quote, my mission is to keep my mother's memory very much alive and to seek justice, he states on his website. She is not, quote, just the nanny. She is a victim of a violent crime who became secondary because her killer was a lord, a lord who was protected and who vanished abroad with the aid of his rich and powerful friends rather than face justice. Noble blood, is a production of I-Heart Radio and Grimm and Mild from Aaron Manky. Noble Blood is created and hosted by me, Dana Schwartz,

with additional writing and researching by Hannah Johnston, Hannah Zwick, Mira Hayward, Courtney Sender, and Lori Goodman. The show is edited and produced by Noami Griffin and Rima Il Kali, with supervising producer Josh Thane, and executive producers Aaron Manky. Alex Williams and Matt Frederick. For more podcasts from IHeartRadio, visit the IHartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. What's up, everyone? I'm Ago Vodom. My next guest, it's Will Ferrell. Woo, woo, woo, woo, woo. My dad gave me the best advice ever. He goes, just give it a shot. But if you ever reach a point where you're banging your head against the wall

and it doesn't feel fun anymore, it's okay to quit. If you saw it written down, it would not be an inspiration. It would not be on a calendar of, you know, the cat. Just hang in there. Yeah, it would not be. Right, it wouldn't be that. There's a lot of luck.

Listen to Thanks Dad on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This is an IHeart podcast. Guaranteed human.