Noble Blood - When the Kennedeys met the Windsors (with Caroline Hallemann)

Episode Date: May 26, 2026

Two families captivated the 20th century: the Kennedy clan in America, and the Windsors, the royal family of the UK. Both faced the tribulations of fame and power, and the challenges of the 21st century media. Dana spoke about the parallel dynasties with Caroline Hallemann, author of the upcoming book The Kennedys and the Windsors. Support Noble Blood:—PRE-ORDER 'THE ARCANE ARTS'— Bonus episodes, stickers, and scripts on Patreon— Order Dana's book, 'Anatomy: A Love Story' and its sequel 'Immortality: A Love Story'See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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Listener discretion advised. Welcome to a very special episode of Noble Blood. I'm Dana Schwartz, and I'm joined by Caroline Hallamann, who's the digital director of town and country, and the author of the new book The Kennedys and the Windsors, which is out next week, available for pre-order now. It is a fascinating book, super readable, super fun, like the best sort of historical gossip about these two families that are a global obsession. Caroline, thank you so much for coming on the podcast. Thank you so much for having me. I'm so excited to talk to you today. My first question is, what drew you to a book focused on these two families in particular?

Sure. So I, as the digital, director at Town and Country. I have covered both of these families for just about 10 years now. So I came into writing this book with kind of a deep background on both of them. But what really kind of sparked the idea to write a book was when Prince William announced that he was bringing his Earthshot Prize, which is his big environmental initiative to Boston. And that was in the second year of the prize. And he talked a lot about how President Kennedy's moon shot and his kind of ambition to go to the moon and his declaration that we would do that within 10 years was really an inspiration and a driving force for Williams' big project. And I just started thinking

about that. And I was like, that's so interesting because it was really Prince William kind of leaning on the Kennedy iconography and the Kennedy mythology and kind of like the language of the Kennedys to launch his big project on a global scale to bring that to America. And I was like, that is just, it just felt like a reversal of the whole, like, the Kennedys are the closest thing that America has to the royal family. And so I actually covered that visit to Boston for town and country. And I just kept thinking about that. And I kept thinking about the different connections between the two families. And the following week, Prince Harry had another event with another branch of the Kennedy family. He received the ripple of hope.

award. And so I just kept thinking about it. And I kept thinking about Joe Kennedy in the UK prior to World War II. And I kept thinking about like, you know, the 1961 meeting at Buckingham Palace, which has been fictionalized in the crown and all of these things. And I was like, there must be a book about this. And so I was, you know, I was looking it up. I was trying to find something and there wasn't one. And so then I was like, well, maybe, maybe I should try and write something. And I pitched it to my agent. I had been kind of working on a separate idea. And she was like, that's it. Like, that's the book. You should start on that. And so that's kind of the origin story. I love that infamous visit that you mentioned that was depicted in the crown when Jackie Kennedy and

JFK visited Queen Elizabeth and her husband Philip. As you mentioned, it was depicted in the crown, but you also write about it very beautifully in the book. Can you explain the context of that visit and what happened? Sure. So the 1961 visit, it can came after President Kennedy was in Vienna, which was kind of like a key meeting with Khrushchev about the Cold War. And they talked about the state of Germany. They talked about the state of Laos. It was a big meeting for him. And they knew that he wanted to debrief with the UK Prime Minister afterwards, but he didn't want to make kind of other allies in NATO mad about essentially the US-UK special relationship. So they wanted to get to the U.K.

UK. And actually, his goddaughter was being baptized. So Jackie Kennedy's sister, Lee Radzwell's daughter, Tina, had been premature. It had been a difficult pregnancy. And this was a good enough reason for them to get over to the UK after Vienna that President Kennedy's goddaughter was going to be baptized. And so that's a whole lot of context for why they were there. But while they were there, Queen Elizabeth was like, of course, please invite them to dinner. You know, like, let's make this happen. And so there was a little bit of back. and forth about whether the Rads of Wells would be invited because they had been divorced and there was just all of this back and forth. As we know, divorce in the royal family at this time, big no-no. Exactly. Exactly. But eventually President Kennedy and Jackie, they get to Buckingham Palace for this dinner. And what the crown gets right is that Jackie was not exactly impressed with Buckingham Palace. She thought that, you know, she thought that Prince Philip and she thought that the queen were nice enough. but we have several accounts of her saying, you know, that she was a little bit disappointed. She was disappointed with the food.

She was disappointed with the state of Buckingham Palace. And she was disappointed with what the queen chose to wear. And I think that that little colonel has just like expanded, expanded, expanded in the kind of telephone of history and has led to this kind of idea that the two women had this intense rivalry or something like that. And that's not true. And when you think about it, I mean, they had a lot in common. They were very different. But at the same time, they were both young mothers.

They were both two women, you know, under enormous scrutiny in the public eye. And what I like to point to is that they were both passionate equestrians. Like if you know anything about these two women and their hobbies, you know that they love horses. So even though that first meeting together was kind of, you know, as I say, Jackie was less and impressed, she returned the following year and had lunch at Buckingham Palace. Again, that is depicted in the crown and is fictionalized. Certainly, what we know happened is that they talked about horses in that second meeting, and that's what they really connected on. And, you know, I just love, that bit of history. I think of them both as kind of family matriarchs, but also horse girls.

They are both horse girls. And both of them, I often think about how. lonely and isolating it is to be famous feels almost like a diminishing word for what the queen or what Jackie is, like so constantly scrutinized. And there are so few people who understand what that's like. And even if these two women weren't quite friends, there was probably an understanding between them. Absolutely. I think that hits the nail right on the head. They have singular experiences that very few other people can understand. And, you know, they have, They occupied different roles, but I think there was commonality there, for sure. Do we know how the queen felt about Jackie?

The crown depicted her as a little envious, that Jackie was more beautiful, more glamorous, this French-speaking woman. Was that a fictional invention? I think, yes, it was fictionalized. That is true. But I would say that certainly the royal family, they looked to, the Kennedys for kind of like an injection of vitality. They saw how successful that was. And the royal family definitely took inspiration from that in the years to come. And frankly, I think they could do that

again, honestly, kind of in present day. Yes, I think you're absolutely right. What I also find interesting that you mentioned before is this symbiotic relationship between the two of them. How did the Kennedys benefit from their royal associations, both with the idea of Camelot and by associating themselves with the winters? Sure. I think to answer that question, you have to go back to Joe Kennedy, who was President Kennedy's father. He was the ambassador to the UK prior to World War II.

When he started in that position, when he brought his family over to the UK, he saw it as a real opportunity to kind of push them up the social ladder. And to that effect, you know, Rose Kennedy, his wife, JFK's mother, really saw kind of their time in the UK as kind of the first step toward JFK's presidency. So while they were there, they took every opportunity to socialize with royals and with aristocrats and for their children to as well. And I know you did an episode, I can't remember if it was earlier this year or at the end of last year about KIC who is fascinating. I was about to bring up for audience members who don't remember Kik Kennedy. was the sister of JFK who married into British nobility and she died very tragically young. Yes. But during their time in the UK, you know, that was seen as a real benefit of this position,

is that Joe could have his children make these connections with people. And, you know, those were some of JFK's very close associates during his presidency as well. I feel like that's a great example. And then you kind of look toward the myth making of Jack. after President Kennedy's death and the idea of Camelot. For listeners who are unfamiliar in the handful of days after President Kennedy's assassination, Jackie gave an interview for Life magazine in which she kind of crafted the myth of Camelot. She spoke about how she and JFK had listened to records, the famous Broadway musical Camelot, how that was one of his favorites.

And she kind of made a comparison linking the Kennedy administration and their family to the myth of King Arthur and his knights in Camelot, and that it was a time of, you know, prosperity and goodness and, you know, celebration of the arts and all of those things. And so it is a link that she crafted between royalty and the Kennedy family. And the Kennedys had been called kind of the closest thing that America has to the royal family during the Kennedy administration that didn't start with this. But it certainly has had a long-lasting. impact on how this family is viewed in American popular culture. And so it's that idea of the

Kennedy's as royalty, as the closest thing America has to royalty. It has really perpetuated. And I think that stems from Jackie. And she didn't really give interviews after that, which makes that interview all the more important. It really solidified what she wanted JFK's legacy to be. And then she kind of left it at that and she kind of disappeared, which I find I mean, she didn't disappear, but from giving interviews and sharing her perspective, she never wrote a memoir or anything like that. And I think that link was important to her. One thing I find really compelling about your book is the parallels you draw between generations. I think that the comparison between Jackie O. and Queen Elizabeth makes sense.

I think people also sometimes associate her with Princess Diana, just as this young figure who, as you said, injected some vitality into the families you married into. But you in the book draw a link between JFK Jr. and Diana, which makes a lot of sense as two very glamorous figures who died young. Can you talk a little bit about that comparison? Yeah, sure. I mean, Diana is someone who I think you could compare to many people in the Kennedy family. I think she's, you know, a fascinating figure. But during the 1990s, there were, you know, few people as famous as Princess Diana and JFK Jr. And I think two people who were courted by the media intensely. And I think how they handled it is interesting.

I think a lot of people make a comparison between Princess Diana and Carolyn Besat Kennedy. And absolutely there's one to make there. Yeah. But I think Carolyn was not. as adept at kind of handling the media. She just kind of, she didn't have a sense of how she could work with them or make it work for her in any way, which Diana was kind of, she had that skill. She's masterful, really. Exactly. Exactly. And I would say John F. Kennedy, Jr. was the same way. He, he didn't let it bother him as much because, well, first of all, it's all he'd known

his whole life. That is a differentiator between these two people. But he certainly knew. how to use it to his advantage. I don't think he was upset to be on the cover of People magazine, you know, sexiest man alive. Like that did not bother him. I don't know who it would bother. But so I do think that that, I think that that is the interesting comparison between them

is kind of is in the sense of the media, certainly. In terms of the tragedy of these two families, how do you think each family handled their respective of tragedies individually. Obviously, these are different systems in place, but the royal family was sort of stymied in their ability to respond

to the death of Diana. Yeah. I mean, I think certainly, I mean, that also was a comparison between these two people, is the way they were grieved by the public and the kind of almost cathartic outpouring of grief

by people who didn't know them, the parisocial relationship that people had between themselves and Princess Diana and themselves and John F. Kennedy Jr. In both cases, people kind of created memorials to them outside. There was weeping in the streets in both cases, which is just, it's difficult to kind of imagine that. But that's what happened. And the parallel of public grief for both of them was one of the first things that came to mind. And obviously, with Princess Diana and her son's kind of walking behind her coffin. And then for every time there is a death in the Kennedy family, it is public.

Even for a death like Tatiana Schlossberg recently, you know, there were photographs of the family leaving the funeral that were published in a variety of publications. There is, and she was not a very public-facing person. That is one of the parallels between these two families that illustrates how challenging it is to be in the public eye. There are so many benefits to being as famous as these two families are. That is undeniable. But there are, because so much is expected of them, there's an expectation for them to grieve in public. And that's just not something that is expected of very many people. Pride Month, Toronto.

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Wow. Listen to learning to be human on IHA radio. Apple Podcast or whenever you get your podcast. How did celebrity culture and sort of the paparazzi culture affect both families in the 90s and early 2000s? Sure. I think we think about paparazzi and we think about celebrity culture today and we think, wow, it's really obtrusive. These people are being photographed all the time, all of that. Take it back to the 90s and amplify it to the nth degree. It was different. back then. And Diana is the perfect example. Yes, she manipulated and had a relationship with the press.

She was able to get what she wanted from them in some cases, but certainly they also pursued her. That is absolutely true. And the same was the case for Carolyn in the 90s. They would not leave them alone. There was no way for them to kind of escape interest. In the modern day, I think there is, it's not a parallel, but it's interesting to think about the fact that, everyone has a cell phone. That is a way that you cannot escape that in the modern day. But, you know, I think recently about Tom Holland and Zendaya, they got married. Nobody's seen pictures. Nobody knows about it. That is possible now. That wasn't really possible in the same way. So yeah, it's just different. We'll find out how possible it is if we get secret pictures of Taylor Swift's

sweating. Yes, exactly, exactly. That's going to be the real test. So the meeting between the Kennedys and the Windsors in 1961 is very famous. But are there any other times that these families have come together that you find notable? Sure. This is, it's not exactly a meeting necessarily, but one of my favorite parts of the book is Jackie covering Queen Elizabeth's coronation as a journalist. Prior to Jackie marrying JFK, she worked as a journalist at the Washington Times Herald in D.C. and she, you know, was sent to cover the coronation for her inquiring camera girl column, which was kind of a man on the street column.

And so she covered the ship over, which was what she dubbed kind of the coronation crossing. And then she spoke with with numerous people on the ground. She reported, you know, from the ground about all of the festivities leading up to the coronation. She went to several kind of legendary parties. After the coronation, and I, this is kind of is my favorite chapter because I feel like it offers rare insight into what Jackie was like before she was famous, which I think is really interesting. It's a great parallel between her and Queen Elizabeth because it's kind of these two young women on the brink of exceptional lives kind of right on the edge of something. and, you know, Jackie is funny, and she has these doodles that she drew. And she's just, you know, I just, I love it because, like I said, you know, she was so public and polished during the Kennedy administration.

And then she gave these kind of final interviews, and then you don't hear from her again. And so it's just a really insightful look at who she was at her core as a young woman. I love that. What would you say are the things that each family has learned from each other? What lessons have they taken from the other side? That's a great question. The kind of youth and vitality piece of it, I think, is what the royals had learned from the Kennedys and they looked to them and that was a piece of kind of what they saw as helpful. And the PR of it all, I think they saw that and they were like, okay, you know, that is the way to go. I think both of these families, their histories and their perceptions have been so shaped by television. And I think that

the Kennedy presidency and the Kennedy administration, you know, he won the debate because of TV. Jackie gave her kind of television tour of the White House. And you kind of see television as starting to have importance with the coronation of Queen Elizabeth and kind of with other events. So I think, that is so interesting. Their perception of how they are seen, I think is so key. And I think that's, you know, the royals always knew that. But I think that was like one lesson they learned from the Kennedys. What the Kennedys took from the royal family. That's interesting. I think, again, not to keep talking about this, but the kind of, you know, never complain, never explain, attitude of, you know, not speaking to the press unless it's like absolutely necessary.

You saw that with Jackie. You saw that with Caroline Kennedy. And I think you see that today. You know, the reason why her speaking out against her cousin, R.F. Kennedy Jr., prior to him being appointed to the Trump cabinet, why that had so much impact is because she doesn't speak to the press. I think it had much more impact because of the rarity of it all. Yes, I think that that's completely correct. I think people understand the power of withholding now, especially in an era when, as you said, everyone has a cell phone. It feels like there's so much information at any given time. There is power in saying less. Absolutely. What future, I mean, obviously these families are in very different positions, given that the Windsors are literally monarchs. What future do you sort of predict for each family now? Gosh, that's a good question. If you had asked me even two years about the Kennedys, I would have had a very different answer. Yeah. Has something happened? Is something in the news or something? I mean, I think that Robert F. Kennedy Jr., being in the Trump administration, has set them on an interesting path. He's been in the public. People ask me, you know, why do people care about the Kennedys still? And I'm like, well, I think there's all this history. And I think that they are so.

tied to the core of American history given kind of the violent death of JFK. That's one reason. But now it's like Robert R.R. Kennedy Jr. is in the news constantly right now. He is having an impact that people should be aware. People should be paying attention to that. Also, you know, Jack Schlossberg is running for Congress. He is kind of the next generation of the Kennedys. And I don't see him going away regardless of what the outcome of that race is. And so they they are back in the cultural narrative. So I think watching those two people in particular, I think, will be interesting to see the future of what that family means to American culture. There's also going to be a whole new show about them on Netflix starring Michael Fassbender. And I think popular

culture has kept them in the forefront of the public mind, both families, certainly. But I think that will continue to keep them kind of in the conversation, regardless of whether they continue to stay in politics. But I think they probably will. I mean, this podcast is called Noble Blood. I think if nothing else, something that people are fascinated by is the juxtaposition of extreme wealth and power and privilege and tragedy. And who embodies that better than the Kennedy? Sure. Sure. I think, yeah, absolutely. I think for lack of a better phrase, the drama. of it all. You know, it's kind of the cover of People magazine type stories, whether that is the glamorous wedding or the tragedy. I think that continues to fascinate or the family feud.

You know, again, I think that is both relatable and intriguing. What about the winters? What is going to happen with them? I mean, obviously King Charles is getting older William and Kate are next in line, but how do you think they are going to continue to navigate a pretty archaic institution in the 21st century? Sure. You know, there are rumors from people who know more than me that Prince William would like to make changes when he becomes king. I think he did not have a formal investiture as the Prince of Wales. I think that is kind of an indicator of maybe his coronation will look quite different. And when you say that he didn't have a formal investiture, what does that mean? Sure. So again, not to refer to the crown, but I feel like it's a good

kind of reference point for the average person. So you see in that King Charles, when he became Prince of Wales, had basically like a little coronation in Wales. He learned, if you remember the episode of Crowns, he learned a little Welsh. It was very cute. Yes, exactly. And you don't need that to become the Prince of Wales, but it is tradition and ceremonial and all of those sort of things. So when Prince William became Prince of Wales, he decided we're not doing that. And I think that's interesting. And I think it's a good thing to look at is perhaps an indicator of how things will be moving forward, maybe a little bit less pump and more kind of focus on the work. But at the same time, a line that I particularly like from my book is that, you know, is a royal still a royal if she wears Zara jeans?

Like sometimes like royalty, people want the kind of escapism. People who are invested in royalty and are monarchists kind of at their core. They like all of that. They like the jewels. They like the traditions. They like all of that. And I think it's kind of like if you start to do a way, with those things, then what even is it a little bit? Yes. I mean, I will go on the record as saying,

I do not think a full authoritarian monarchy is the best form of government. And yet, and yet, I do want to say, I think in a society where we don't believe in the, most people don't believe in the divine right of kings, that this is God himself anointing this one person to rule us. Without that sort of supernatural buy-in, what is it that bestows this person power? why I think people sometimes then can blink and be like, I'm an adult, you know, I'm an adult woman kneeling to another adult who's drinking from a gold cup. And when you strip away the context, what's left can look a little silly. Yeah. Yeah. I think where the British royal family can do a lot of good is by spotlighting causes that are important to them, charities that are doing amazing work. I think the idea of public duty. is a really great thing. And I think that's something that can be found in the Kennedy family as well. The issue that the British Royals are facing right now is that they don't have a lot of young people

kind of to take over after this next generation. And I think, you know, there's a lot to be said about Harry and Megan and everything kind of with kind of that family feud, to speak of family feuds. But I think they could have used them. I guess that's what I'll say. that's that's uh i think spot on and then just before i let you go what advice would you give to the winters now if you could if you were in charge of their PR oh if i was in charge of the windsor's PR give me that job no um i think you know i i think what charles and camilla did in the united states like what we're talking we're talking about kind of that just as their trip is coming to an end And I liked the way that they had a variety.

They did a variety of things, some that felt very traditional, some that felt very modern. And I think that that's important. I think they were speaking about things that they're passionate about, whether that's the environment or Camilla meeting with kind of advocates for, you know, those who support people who have experienced domestic abuse, things like that. I think that's amazing. I think they should do more of that. I think that, you know, as often as, as, as.

is William and Kate can be front and center as young people and talking about kind of the future of the monarchy, I think that's what they should be doing. I think they have to think about that from a PR perspective. Absolutely, it's the challenges that the Windsors are facing were only amplified when Kate had a health crisis recently. Of course, she couldn't work. She was kind of out of commission in that capacity and Prince William was having to step up with his kind of nuclear family and things like that, absolutely understandable. But I think it illustrates that they don't have as deep of a bench as they used to for young people doing the work. I don't know. Edward and Sophie also have, you know, whether that's maybe Lady Louise kind of doing some

engagements. I'm not sure. It's kind of a, they're kind of in a tricky position. Especially when I'm sure, as you recall, with Kate's health crisis, we saw sort of the social media conversation spiral out of control in a way that I think revealed the ways in which the current royal family maybe doesn't have quite as firm of a grasp on the speed and ferocity of social media as they might have hoped. Yeah, absolutely. I think that it's been interesting to see William and Kate and their shift toward kind of making pre-planned videos and things like that to stay a part of the conversation in a way that they can control where they might not have to be physically, you know, visible or something like that, but they can still be putting out

content, so to speak, at a more rapid clip. It's been, I mean, I just think that's interesting, kind of that they're tapping into that psychology. Is there any, anything you learned researching this book that surprised you? I was less familiar with Joe Kennedy and his kind of time in the UK. Honestly, the kick story is one that I wish I could have spent more time on because it was so interesting to me. It was, again, for those listeners, go back and listen to Dana's episode. It's so good. It's about, you know, kind of forbidden love and tragedy. And, you know, her parents did not want her to marry someone from the British aristocracy because of religious reasons and all sorts of things. It's fascinating. So I learned a lot there.

certainly. And I also learned a good bit, we haven't touched on this yet, but that JFK Jr. and Diana actually met in New York in a secret meeting that was not reported on at the time. And that, again, is so interesting that they were able to keep that out of the tabloids because, again, they were two of the very most famous people in the world. And, you know, he had asked her to be on the cover of his magazine. She very kindly said no, but they had a very lovely tea at the Carlyle Hotel. That's lovely. I wish I could have seen that meeting. I wish, you know, we'll have to settle for fiction, but that's fascinating to imagine. Caroline, thank you so much for your time and for this fascinating book. The book is The Kennedys and the Windsors. It's available for pre-order. It comes

out next Tuesday. If you're interested in both of these families, you absolutely should pick it up. Caroline, is there anywhere on social media that you want to direct the listeners to? Sure. Maybe just Caroline Hallamon.com. Then it gets all the links and all the socials are there. Fantastic. Thank you so much for joining us. Noble Blood is a production of IHeart Radio and Grim and Mild from Aaron Manke. Noble Blood is hosted by me, Dana Schwartz. Writers for Noble Blood are Hannah Johnston, Hannah Zwick, Paul Jaffe, Natasha Lasky, and me, Dana Schwartz. The show is edited and produced by Jesse Funk and Nome's Gripen,

with supervising producer Rima Il Kali and executive producers Aaron Manky, Trevor Young and Matt Frederick. For more podcasts from IHeartRadio, visit the IHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. Joy is essential and it's also elusive, but now there's a new and exciting way to start your journey toward a more joyful existence. Joy 101.

It's a new podcast hosted by me, Hoda Kotby. If you're craving inspiration to maximize your joy, tune into these candid, uplifting, and moving on-air chats. Open your free IHeart Radio app. Search Joy 101 and listen now. Joy 101 with Hoda Kotby is presented by CVS. I've been hearing for decades that the markets can solve climate change. Today, we have more incentives for market solutions than ever and emissions are rising. On this season of drilled, Carbon Cowboys, the store. story of three market solutions colliding in one multinational boondoggle. You got to give Bruce of the guy's credit.

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