Nobody Panic - How to Be a Better Trans Ally

Episode Date: November 10, 2020

Want to be a better ally to the trans community but worried you’ll get it wrong? Illustrator and facilitator for The School of Sexuality Education Andy Thornton offered to come onto the podcast and chat to Stevie and Tessa about inclusive language, gender expression and everything in-between. Huge shout out to Andy for taking the time to talk to us! Follow Andy Thornton on Instagram @humansatsumaWant to support Nobody Panic? You can make a one-off donation at https://supporter.acast.com/nobodypanicRecorded and edited by Naomi Parnell for Plosive Productions.Photos by Marco Vittur, jingle by David Dobson.Follow Nobody Panic on Twitter @NobodyPanicPodSupport this show http://supporter.acast.com/nobodypanic. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hello, I'm Carriad. I'm Sarah. And we are the Weirdo's Book Club podcast. We are doing a very special live show as part of the London Podcast Festival. The date is Thursday, 11th of September. The date is 7pm and our special guest is the brilliant Alan Davies. Tickets from kingsplace. It's coming to London. True on Saturday the 13th of September. At the London Podcast Festival. The rumours are true. Saturday the 13th of September at King's Place. Oh, that sounds like a date to me, Harriet. A podcast that helps you, I suppose, do things. That's the simplest way. And be things. Do things, be stuff. Get through the day. Learn.

Learn. Learn, laugh, love, laugh. Learn again. Step outside of your comfort zone. And bloody learn some things is hopefully what we're going to be doing on this very exciting episode. This episode, we've called it, Palfi Vetter Trans ally. We had an email from the lovely Andy Thornton who said you're both such a lovely supportive of people, very kind, but occasionally the language you use is trans excluding. So it'd be fab to

teach you and listeners, easy fun ways to include everyone. And then we thought we'd obviously have you on, rather than you just sort of emailing through and then I was just reading more of your emails out. How are you doing, Andy? I'm doing very well. It's honestly a joy to be here. Thank you very much for coming on. How can people find you? My Instagram is Human Satuma. I also have an art account that is Les Get Better, LES get better, LES get better. I'm an illustrator. I manage the social media of the school of sexuality education, so give that a cheeky like. That's at school underscore sex ed. If you're particularly keen, Rebecca's secret grandpa, Rebecca with a K, is a children's book that I wrote and illustrated on Amazon. Amazing. And it's trans. So again, yes, it is. So before we

get into it. Let's do our adult things for the week. So Tessa, should we start with you, what's your adult thing of the week? I have got a phone case. I mean, this is something that I've thought about so much since you casually said about a month ago that you don't have a phone case because that would mean that you are too, what was the word, too involved in your phone? I just like it to be nude. I'm sorry. I'm sorry to that man. I just, I'm sorry. I like it nude. I just like it thin and small.

And everyone always says like, do you want to get a case? And I think, no, I don't want to get a case. And then I break it constantly. Yes. Anyway. And then a nice man down the road who operates out of sort of a back alley. He fixes the phone for me when I break it. And then this time I went and he just put the case on for me and was like, no further questions.

I don't want to see you again. And I was like, incredible. Okay. But the man who makes money from you breaking your phone doesn't want you to break your phone, you know you've got a problem. Yeah. All right. Okay.

Thank you. It is a real problem. What's your adult thing? So I have a spider plant. And not only if I not killed it, but it's actually grown little baby spider plants on it. Oh. You know how I did like that all? Yeah.

Okay. And I bought some soil. I tried so hard to not get it off Amazon. Couldn't find any soil anywhere. Bought some soil off Amazon. Got little pots from the market. And I have planted these baby spider plants in their own pots. That's so impressive.

That's amazing. Congratulations. Mine's really boring. But boring, but also like felt incredible. I don't do like sort of tidying or sorting as a rule. And unless it's like half 11 at night and I've just been like, oh you know like all of those like I don't know I have lots of like drawers or boxes

that have just got loads of stuff in them and they're not like this is where my this goes it's just like stuff so I was like I'm going to go through every single stuff compartment in my flat get rid of everything and then make each draw have a purpose and I did

that in the night and now I have a drawer for like charges and wires to the extent where I've got a little bag for non-specific, you can't see it, non-specific wires. Oh. That's incredible.

That's genuinely very good. Very boring, but very good. So boring, but it really, like, exhilarates me at the time. Right. Shall we get into it? What we'll do is, I think it's best to assume for the sake of just everyone listening that we know literally nothing, even though that is not the case. I want to make that very clear.

What we do know is sparse and possibly, very much needs educating. But we might ask some questions that people at home and yourself might be like, good Lord, have you gone out your house ever? That's absolutely fine. For example, would you like to kick us off by sort of taking us through, I guess, the main gender or the gender identity is how people like to be labelled and all the sort of different, the different types, I guess. Yeah. So I think a caveat on that would be It's really important to ask stupid questions when somebody says, hi, I'm here, please ask your stupid questions, because then you know. And then you don't have to turn to your trans friend at the pub when they're trying to have a nice evening

and ask stupid questions then. And also, you can tell when somebody's trying and when somebody is not trying. And as long as you're trying, like, I think I certainly as a trans person really appreciate that and can tell. so if you occasionally get things wrong, no worries. You'll try and be better. But it's when people are like, yeah, it's complicated, I'm out. And then it's like, okay, no. But also the language that we have is changing all the time. So if you don't, I mean, obviously, I'm going to equip you with the right language. So that's going to be delightful. But, you know, if you don't know, Google it. Now we've all got these things called smart phones. Mine's in a case. With that in mind. Yes. The way, so I, so I, so I, I work for the School of Sexuality Education, who do comprehensive and inclusive sex and relationships education in schools. They're amazing. And the way that they kind of talk about identity and teach identity in classes

is to do it from, to spit it out into gender identity, gender expression, like sex characteristics, and then sexuality kind of as a separate but connected thing. So I thought if we go through that, then it hopefully will be easy to understand. Absolutely. So gender identity is like who you know you are. I think the easiest way I found to understand it is, you know when you're in love, you're in love, and you're like, I'm in love.

By the way, everyone I'm in love. But the way that people feel that is different and the way that you can tell is different, but you're just like, you wake up in the morning and you're like, I know that I love this person. Gender identity is kind of like that. It's like, I just know that I'm this. and when you take away like what genitals you've got or like what clothes you wear it's just like a

fundamental like this is who I am when a baby is born the doctors look at its genitals and they're like I reckon that's going to be a boy or I reckon that's going to be a girl and that is the gender that you are assigned at birth so like the way that you instead of saying like oh they used to be this or like you know whatever, you say the gender they were assigned at birth is. So assigned female at birth or assigned male at birth. Does that make sense? Yes, because then you're not saying like, then there's this kind of confusing language if you're like, they used to be a man or they used to be one. It's like, well, no, because they didn't ever feel like that. So they weren't. They were just literally quite physiologically assigned to that. Right. Yes, got it. Hands up from me. So the correct

The correct phrase... What's birth? Hello. You know, the correct phrasing would be to say, this is Susan. She was assigned male at birth? If she was, yeah. Sorry, if she was, yeah.

She was, if she wasn't, then that would be... If she was, yeah. Sorry, just pointing at people in my office. That's her, please. Can you stop just saying everyone was assigned male at birth? Sorry, sorry. Sorry, if Susan was a... A trans woman.

And rather than me saying, Susan used to be a man, I would say Susan was assigned male at birth. Yes. Susan was assigned male at birth. Yes. Yes. But you, it would be impolite for you to say, oh, hi, Andy, this is Susan. She was assigned male at birth. Yes.

Yes, absolutely. Yes, it would. I say that because people genuinely do that. They don't. Like, oh my God. So, very quick, a little dictionary. moment here. Trans man is somebody who was assigned female at birth and they're a man. So that means that they have transitioned, but that doesn't mean you can medically transition, which is where

you get hormones and you maybe get surgery, gender affirming surgery. But also you can transition in the sense of like, you're like, hi everyone, I'm a man. And everyone's like, cool. and you don't have to medically transition to be trans. I think that's quite important. It's like you've accepted, you've realised or you've felt comfortable to tell people. So that's the kind of transition of it. Right. Yeah.

And even if you never tell anybody, you still, you know, you feel that and you know that's true. So you are that. That's all it is. Yes. And then a trans woman is somebody who identifies as a woman and they were assigned male at birth. Everyone gets very involved as to what genitals trans women have and they all need to calm down because it's really irrelevant. Never ask somebody what their genitals are. That's just the general. You know, it's not hard as it. Yeah. Yeah. And then it gets a bit more complicated. Oh, and then if you're assigned female at birth and you're female, then you're a cis woman. And if you're assigned male at birth and you're a cis man. Then you have non-binary. And non-binary is like,

an umbrella term for anyone who's trans, but who doesn't kind of fit in the pink or the blue box of like trans man or trans woman. There are loads of different ways to be non-binary. So for instance, I'm non-binary. I'm by gender. So I like really deeply associate with like both all genders. So like I want to be at the women's sleepover talking about the patriarchy. But then I also want to be at the men's eye. archery brunch, do you know? The most male of all the activities. Yeah. So, yes, okay. You want to be all the things.

All the things. I just, I'm all the things, which is a bit annoying because that's, our society is not set up for someone to be all the things. It's set up for them to be one or the other. But then there are non-binary people who like, they're sort of gender fluid. So like some days, they're like, I feel really masculine today. And then some days they're like, do you know what? I feel way more feminine today. And then there are, some people who are like gender, no thanks, don't really like any of it, doesn't suit me, no. My favourite way of explaining this is I was watching, you know the live action version of Beauty and the Beast? There's this bit where Bell and the Beast are dancing and she's in this beautiful yellow dress and he's in this stunning frilly blue suit. And I was watching that and I was like, that is me. I am that. Both of them at the

same time. And then my other friend Matty, who's non-binary, is like, yes, and I am the teapot in the corner. I want none of it. Got it. Because you see lots of people, I've seen things like, I'm talking about like femme and things like that. Is that like a more, so that's like the feminine element to, if you are non-binary, so you could be like queer femme? Yes, exactly. So I am probably more masks. So I prefer like more male. And my gender expression, is more male. I prefer to be included in like men's kind of language a bit more, like male language, but I was assigned female at birth, but I would still count as mask. And then somebody who was non-binary and assigned male at birth, but like still kind of within that like masculine

presentation would also be mask. So that's gender expression. So like the way that you talk, the way you dress, all of that is gender expression. And I think what's really important about that is so I could wear a dress and I could be like, oh, I'm wearing a dress. Like, this means that I'm kind of female. Or I could wear a dress and I could be like, I'm a man in a dress. What's the fuss? And that just completely depends on how the meaning that we individually give to things. You're just Andy wearing a dress. So obviously that, God, this is like the most almost so simplistic, it's insulting, but it's like when, so I'm consistently, I sort of will say like, oh, I'm vegan, because it's easier in restaurants, but I actually do eat eggs, but that's

no one's business. Like, it's just easier for me to say vegan so that the chef doesn't freak out. And in the moment there's like an omelette mentions, someone's like, I thought you're vegan. You're like, why are you so bothered about what I'm eating? And like, I actually just said it because it's easier. Yes. No, that's actually really it. That's really it. And so I think that's really true for, like, that's what non-binary is. Non-binary is me saying, I'm vegan. Because you know what? I could spend, like, a good five minutes explaining to you how I feel, but you don't care. So I'll just say I'm non-binary. And it's the same with, like, being by, because I feel like I'm both genders and the way that I, like, when I'm with somebody, I like feeling, like,

kind of the same as them. I feel like I'm gay, but obviously I like all genders. So it's all very complicated. But I just say I'm by, because that's easier. And then, there are some by people who like only really want to be with women but like maybe they'll make out with a guy on an evening because it's a Tuesday and they've got nothing else to do and then they count as by but maybe there's somebody who actually just you know likes everything all the time so it's complicated yes yeah I think part of the reason that it hits such a problematic wall is that I think 99% of people of people are genuinely not awful and are really trying to be supportive but like we're especially as a British, a Western culture,

we're so clear about our labels and we're so clear about, like even the vegan thing, like some of it's coming from a dickish place, Steve, but some of it sometimes people are like, but, ah, you said, ah, yeah, I thought I knew and now I don't know. I thought I knew. It's why people got so upset about those fucking like cake memes on the internet. Yes. You said it was a glass and it's a cake.

You know, like we are. It all just comes from a place of fear and then it gets wrapped up in, you know, and then I'm sure it also does come. There is genuine malice and genuine ill will out there. But the majority of it, I think, is just like fear and confusion. What are the rules? And we're taught the rules. Like if you actually... And we're taught the rules, exactly.

We're taught the rules. Like, when you have a baby, we color code what card they get. It's like the most important thing about the child, which is just ridiculous. We do a gender reveal and we say these are your two options. So when someone's like, I'd like option five. You're like, you didn't... And this is the thing I think I used to be so stressed. when I was younger of like, oh God, am I a trans man or am I non-binary?

It is absolutely necessary that I know this. And it's like, no. It's like, do I want to grow out my leg hair or not? How do I want my partner to refer to me? These are the things that are important. It doesn't matter if I don't know exactly what I am because none of us do. We're all works in progress. Do you know?

So I think, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, a lot of it is just like just believe people because it is still. it is still quite tricky being trans and you wouldn't somebody wouldn't turn up and be like I'm trans unless they really were turning it into like how to be more of an ally with that sort of information I know there's there's many more ways that people can describe but like the pronouns is that is such the surface level superficial like that's the first line of of like oh I fucked it so the best thing with pronouns is to ask

Just ask. And some people are like, but won't they be insulted? But if you ask everyone, then it's not insulting. So just, but then the easiest way also to ask is to say yourself. So if I met you in a bar and was like, oh, hi, I'm Andy. My pronouns are they and he? Then you would be like, oh, I'm Stevie. My pronouns are she and her?

Because humans just copy people. So that's a really easy way of asking. And then if you get somebody's pronouns wrong, then you're just like, oh, sorry, correct yourself, move on, just move on. And then you get it right next time. Please, can you move on? And I think also there's something, so gender dysphoria, you've not talked about that, and it's basically when you feel like a really big disconnect between who you are and what kind of either what body you've got or like the way that people talk to you and it's very horrible. And but there's also this thing called gender euphoria.

So for instance, my flatmate, so I live with Sophia and David, they're delightful. And my flatmate and David is a man. And my flatmate will always say, oh, the boys or I love living with guys. And I'm like, oh, I feel seen. The archery branch. The archery branch, do you know? And so if you have. misgendered your trans friend who you love deeply.

It's sometimes it's hard when you're trans to be like, oh, they, they secretly think that I'm not real. So if you then do something that is then very, um, kind of validating, then that can help counteract that.

So that's a fun, a fun way. Yes. There's also, there's so many things. So for instance, if you're, um,

like talking about a group of people, you could say ladies, gentlemen and guests because not everyone is a lady or a gentleman. Oh, lovely. And that means so much to me as a non-binary person because I'm like, you are acknowledging that I am in this room. And it's lovely. It can get quite confusing to be like, oh, do I need to say men? Do I need to say cismen? Do I need to say people? So the easiest thing is to think what am I actually talking about. So for instance, you had a fabulous episode on Summer a while ago. and you're talking about how men have really hairy legs.

And what you're thinking of is cis men. So people who assign men at birth, they have really hairy legs. So then you'd just say cis men. Got it. But if you're talking about everyone who uses their male bathroom, you'd be like men. That includes trans men, but you don't need to be like cis men and trans men.

Yeah, because it's just, that's something simple. but it's something simple that is just like it includes everybody. But it is really nice to occasionally be explicit because then again people know that you're safe and that you acknowledge their identities. So if you're talking about like periods, you would say like people with booms or people who have periods or because obviously like trans men have periods

and non-binary people have periods. And I think like it's also the same with sexuality. So if you're talking about like your boyfriend or girlfriend, you can say that or you can be like your boyfriend girlfriend or significant other or bit on the side partner ball and chain exactly and it's sometimes nice to yeah to just be really explicit about that I think one of the biggest things this is not necessarily a thing that you can do but a thing that you can know so we have this there's this kind of really prevalent myth that like obviously there are loads of genders but there are only two sexes but that's not even that's fake it's fake name

like sex characteristics, so like the genitals that you have and the chromosome, the sex chromosomes and the way they relay, there are loads of different variations of that. Like 1.7% of the population is intersex, which is like an umbrella term for kind of differences in like sex traits and characteristics and chromosomes. So there's not even like two genitals that you can have. There's loads of different genitals as well. So I think there's this thing of being like, oh yeah, they're this gender, but like they're this sex, but it's like, well, no, that's not.

Being a sign male at birth is not the first thing you should say about Susan. Do you mean? Yeah. Susan's got much more going on. Sorry. She loves skydousing, pizza and a sign male at birth. Yeah. I think we're just, we're just such a product of our, of our time, aren't we?

And we're, I mean, it's on us now to be doing the work to be like, to breaking down all our pre-held beliefs. I'd also say, like, it's. really important to acknowledge like intersectionality. So obviously I am non-binary and there are loads of trans people who think that non-binary people aren't real. So that's fun. But also I'm white. See that's there's all even within the community of going through it. There's still this like. It's as humans, isn't it? Humans will always just fuck everything else. Exactly. But like I, you know, I'm white so I still have that privilege. And I know that there are trans people.

people who, like people of color or black people or indigenous people who have a different experience. So I know someone who recently got top surgery, breast reduction, then on binary, and that should have been like a really affirming experience, but they suffered loads of racism. So that then made it actually really nasty. So it, you know, it all kind of intersect. And I think the best thing that you can do is just, well, first of all, just don't be a dick. But also, So, like, ask people, like, what their pronouns are and just try and really affirm the identity that they say they are. And if, in six months, they're like, oh, hey, I told you I was a man, but actually, I'm non-binary. You can be like, great.

You've figured that out. That's really cool. Also, is it the, if you're going to say, like, is it, you used to be like LGBT? And then it's LGBTQIA plus? Is that the right one? So it is technically LGBTQIA. but that nobody can be bothered to say all those words. So you say LGBTQ plus.

And the Q is queer. So that's sort of an umbrella for everyone. And the plus is like, I acknowledge that there are lots of other things. And then if you're talking about trans people, if you're non-binary, you are trans. But obviously because often people exclude non-binary people, it's good to say trans and non-binary people.

Okay. And the word queer then. can that be used as an umbrella for trans people and non-binary people and everyone? So if you were like at any point, if you're like, oh, I'm going to say the wrong thing, but I know I should say something. Is it safe in massive quotation marks to just go for queer? Yeah, I think I, obviously it was a slur. It now isn't really.

But I think it's, so if it's like a kind of very corporate situation, I would say LGBTQ plus. But if it's a sort of more colloquial situation, if you're on a show or whatever, you can just say, yeah, queer people. And queer people is like anyone who is not cis and straight. Right. That might be quite helpful if you're, yeah, if you're having a private panic, but you really want to help.

For the people who are still at like, Pierce Morgan, I identify as a penguin level. Yes. It feels like it's very much up to, or should be very much up to cis people like myself. Yeah. To sort of when you hear people make those sorts of things, to just go like, that's not cool. Is there ways in which cis people can help in that way? Like, are the things that you wish cis people could do more of? Apart from it's obviously not to be transphobic.

Which is a real life one. Yeah, I think a lot in the way that you speak about things. So, for instance, when you're talking about, so if you start with they, he or she is not actually that great. If you just say they, you're talking about everybody and that's really good. So when somebody talks about their friend or their partner, until they say a pronoun, say they. And that's really helpful because that doesn't assume anything and also normalizes using they pronouns, which we love. And I think you've already hit the nail on the head. A big one is just if people are stupid, say you're being stupid because then I don't have to.

And that's great. Tess has mentioned this time when there was like a party ages ago and she was really young. And someone said something and a cool guy just went, not cool man. And it was like the most powerful thing that's ever happened. Yes. That's enough to just to sort of signify, that's not great. And then move on. So then he just had a little red flag planted in his brain.

The next time he says it, that red flag will be there. And hopefully other people will say it as well. and then the cycle can be broken. May I ask a sort of left field question that we haven't brought up yet. I've seen quite a lot of people using the word woman with an X instead of an A. Yeah. What's your take on that? What's my fresh take on that?

Is that cool? Should we be doing that or should we be maybe not doing that? Well, I read this really interesting thing on Instagram. which I feel terrible because I don't know who it was, so I can't source them. But basically, it's very normal, as you say, to use either woman with an ex or to be like, this space is for women and non-binary people.

But actually, that's not great because, you know, a non-binary person could really identify as masculine or they could, like, you're not actually saying anything there. I think women with an ex began, as like a fuck men in the 70s, which is we're not really there anymore. And now I think it often means women as like and non-binary people. But I think really you just want to say what you mean. So again, if you're doing a evening talking about like the patriarchy and experiences of it,

then you would say this event is open to anyone who, has a female experience or relates to the female experience. Or if you're saying, we don't want men there, then you'll be like, this event is for women, non-binary people, and we would ask anyone who identifies as a man not to come. Because the thing that sort of confused me about the woman with the ex is it felt like, but also like you want to be able to say that like,

if you are a trans woman, you are a woman. like with an actual word. So do we have to put X in to be like women, but also other ones? Yes, exactly, because women are just women, trans women are women. Trans women are women, I will say it every day. Trans women are women. So, like, if you're saying women, and if you want to be like, women and trans women are, like, especially welcome, like, you know how I'm job interviews, they're like,

or job descriptions? They're like, we also would love it if you're queer. That's fine. You know, you can put that on. That's how they put it as well. Please, if you're queer, that would be great. Yeah. So I think just say this event is for women.

Trans women are welcome, like, people with trans identities or like queer people of colour or, you know, whoever is very welcome. We'd love to have you. Then if you're at the event and you have little name badges, include the pronouns on the name badges. Is there anything else that you'd like to? say in terms of tips or suggestions or anything else that we can do? There are lots of people who are like, oh, but, you know, I'm not trans enough. So like I'm a bit, maybe not a woman, but I'm not that trans, so I don't count. And you do.

I suppose what I mean is if you're like, oh, maybe I'm not cis, that's not really insulting to trans people. If you want to go and kind of look into that and think about it, that's full. fine. I've just had people before being like, oh, but I don't count and I don't want to cause a fuss when I'm not. And I think the other thing would be men in dresses isn't funny. There's a big problem with that. Yeah. Then that comes up, you know. I think it comes very clearly from a place of like if your view of the world is so small and so

Pierce Morgan and so like this is it. And then therefore not only is it clearly, clearly an expression that you would actually just like to wear a dress and that they look quite nice to wear. Then fucking wear your dress, mate. You don't have to be like, ha, ha, ha, I'm wearing the dress. Be like, if you want to wear a dress, wear a dress and you wouldn't think that was the most hilarious thing that your mind could come up with

if you were given more of a smorgasbord of ideas and possibilities and things for you to express yourself. I identify as a glorious gay man in a silk shaming sitting on the sofa saying, darling that's my gender and also like to honest sometimes I identify that and I know I will own that and that's why I feel that sometimes I like we all identify so many different things constantly yes it's very specific sorts of people that that that can't see outside of that will also maybe you know stevie I don't want to speak for you but maybe your gender is a 70s female lawyer in a pantsuit

and puffy sleeves saying he's guilty your honor do you know that i mean it is yes i'm glad that feels that feels pretty close to the bone yeah i feel seen i feel seen sometimes i'm the teapot from beauty and the bees and sometimes i misses um the baddie from um uh his dark materials with i'm her pet monkey cool to the horrible monkey i'm that's that's my gender identity incredible people feel like you know, I'm like cis people will like, like, like Pierce Morgan, will be like, well, I'm normal and boring. And then these trans people are all, you know, they've got all this stuff and blah, blah, but actually, do you know, everybody has a lot going on with the way that they express their gender and the way they express themselves. And trans people are just doing that in a way different to what we were taught when we were in primary school, do you know? But it's not that, it's not different.

Sometimes it is. Sometimes it's really wacky and wild and that's great too. Would it be helpful as well to like, because we haven't even mentioned this, but like following little things, like if you're not following any trans people or queer people on Instagram, like follow loads of, so then you can like be aware of stuff like,

like petitions and things to donate to and also be like aware of the changes of the law from the perspective of trans and queer people rather than just from the perspective of like well J.K. Rawlings read an open letter. There are loads of incredible non-binary and trans activists, influences, you know, get them on your feed,

buy their books and like try and champion them. Like as a cis person, if you're at a party and somebody is like, oh, I love, I don't know, this actor. you can be like, yeah, and I love this actor who's non-binary. Just kind of showing people that we exist and like big up. And it's the same with obviously people of colour and black and indigenous people as well,

like bigging them up because you have to get over so many hurdles to get to the same place that if you can make that journey a little bit easier, then that's amazing. I'm so sorry that we have to sort of come to the end. But so I feel, and I hope lots of people listening, feel much more confident and able to be like, okay, here are my, here's my things. I'm saying the words, you know, the worst thing we can do is be afraid and be like, oh, I just won't say anything and I won't get involved. So I don't fuck up. Be like, fuck up. And then say sorry and carry on.

And that's cool. And thank you so much. It's so nice for someone to be like, you know, I don't know, but please tell us. And I love that. I think that's important. Well, that's very much where we're at. Well, thank you so much, Andy. Absolutely delight to have you on and really, really interesting.

And please do follow us at Nobody Panic Pod. I'm at CVM. This is a 5. Tessa. At Tessa Coates. Just letters. Have a lovely week, guys, and we will see you next week for more of the same business, really. More hot, hot learning.

Bye-bye.