Nobody Panic - How to Be Persuasive

Episode Date: October 27, 2020

Want to persuade people without appearing preachy? Stevie and Tessa learn it’s all about empathy and sometimes slowing down your voice a bit. There’s more to it than that, of course, but we can’t put all the spoilers in the episode description can we? Let’s just say that after this you’ll be persuading people all over town. If that’s what you’d like to do.Want to support Nobody Panic? You can make a one-off donation at https://supporter.acast.com/nobodypanicRecorded and edited by Naomi Parnell for Plosive Productions.Photos by Marco Vittur, jingle by David Dobson.Follow Nobody Panic on Twitter @NobodyPanicPodSupport this show http://supporter.acast.com/nobodypanic. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hello, I'm Carriad. I'm Sarah. And we are the Weirdo's Book Club podcast. We are doing a very special live show as part of the London Podcast Festival. The date is Thursday, 11th of September. The time is 7pm and our special guest is the brilliant Alan Davies. Tickets from kingsplace.com. Single ladies, it's coming to London.

True on Saturday, the 13th of September. At the London Podcast Festival. The rumours are true. Saturday the 13th of September. At King's Place. Oh, that sounds like a date to me, Harriet. y'all out with some things about life. I'm Stevie. I'm Tessa. And this is the podcast. It's called Nobody Panic. You're probably O'Fay with it by now. Or not. Or not. This could be the first one,

in which case, pop on in. Come in. Welcome. Good luck. Good luck. Thank you for coming to hang out with us. It's lovely to have you. Perhaps we could persuade you to stay. Very good. Thank you. We've been working through. listener suggestions for the last few weeks, apart from when one of us and I know is hung over and we do how to be hung over. But this one came in from Rebecca. She said, I've been a fan for a couple of years now. Oh, thank you, Rebecca. And, oh, I've never plucked up the courage to write in. Well, that's very sweet. And I'm glad that you did, because it's an excellent episode. Essentially, Rebecca is suggesting how to be persuasive or how not to preach. So she's coming at it from the

perspective of being like an eco warrior and finding it really hard to persuade friends and family to cut down their meat consumption or stop buying so many clothes as I get worried it will sound like preaching. How to be persuasive is an excellent topic for this for that reason and also just in general in life. So we're going to of course look at how to persuade people to stop eating so much meat when for example you've watched the film Oakshire and cried so hard that the tears have gone, bounced off your mouth and gone up your nose. And then you feel like whenever you've gone from being like a vegetarian who's like, I'm actually cool with steak to being like, I can't be in the same room. I feel, I feel like, and I think it's something that whatever your

personal passion is, especially today in this deeply divided world, you know, you come against friends and family and true loved ones. You're like, what? You're what? How can your views be so polar this? And it's also helpful as well. There'll be some tips in that. And just, you know, even if it's not to do with, like, opposing political views, but it's just something of work that you need to persuade somebody to do anything. There'll be some evergreen, evergreen tips in there. Maybe, you need to persuade somebody on your work team to be less of a shit and do their work properly.

Maybe you need to persuade your partner that you would like this laundry basket in the shape of a penguin. Options. Options. Options. Before we get into how Tesla can persuade people to, let I have a penguin laundry basket or tackle racist views within the familial structures. What is the adult thing that you have done this week that makes you feel most like an adult?

I hate follow a girl I went to school with on Instagram and she has had a number of astounding career changes. She was several years below me and definitely doesn't listen to the podcast. and she's now become a sort of online guru. Very interesting transition for her. She was previously a high-end fashion blogger. Right. And then before that, she was married to an oil billionaire. We married someone very, very rich.

And the thing was just being rich and having a baby. And then before that, music career. And then before that, babe station. Was not expecting that? No. know, right? What curveball. It has been an enormous and varied career to trajectory. And I do, you know, I don't dislike the girl, but I do follow it with a fascinated eye. Anyway, then she's recently become a sort of guru and I was listening to one this morning and normally I'm just

like, oh, you know, but then this morning I was actually quite, it's actually quite good. Does it like a podcast then? Is this the vibe? this is the thing I'm like I start being like oh what's that and I'm like oh wow okay I've signed up

I've signed up to a webinar anyway this one I actually wrote down some things from her thing and I was like this one was actually relatively helpful and also I have been

she was like it was basically it is basically her whole thing is just like rehashing you know nonsense from the secret that's like if you think bad thoughts

bad shit will happen if you believe you say which is what everyone's saying but like she was she did make a comment that was like if your work spaces in disarray, like if you can only create chaos out of chaos, and I looked at my desk where there was seven different pairs of socks on the desk.

Yes. And then I've just completely cleared my desk where I'm sat now, and it looks so smart and nice. And I'm like, oh my God, wow. And it was such, I mean, I've only cleared it by throwing it directly behind me. You're already ahead because even with seven pairs of socks on a desk, you have a desk. I like work on the floor. Sorry, the desk.

Well, yeah, thank you. The desk is also an old door propped onto. Whatever you use, it's good business. It's as well as like a journey as well. It was a real journey. It was a real journey. I hate follow this girl. She's an asshole.

And then being like, it's actually quite impressive. I've written on her. I've written a few top tips on this post. I love her. And that just shows that human beings contain multitudes. And we can never encapsulate them in a hate follow. No. I was going to say, you shouldn't hate follow people.

but actually, if it yields this, keep going. If it, yeah, if it brings you joy to quietly watch. And also, we're using the word hate is very aggressive there, but I think everybody follows somebody who they are, who they do not know in real life, or maybe new 10 years ago. And they are so invested in their life. And they're like, oh, the husband's back. Yes.

Like, who's husband? The husband's back is a perfect way. The husband's back. Exactly. He hasn't been around for a while. Oh, he's not been in the stories, you know, for a while. you know and you do really but I think it's I don't honestly don't think there's any harm in it to like just be invested in someone else in the story of someone else's life if they're not making you personally feel bad or lesser then absolutely fine hate follow is only bad but it's like oh I hate follow them because they're perfect and I'm terrible and you're like that's bad yeah yeah yeah if you're like they're crazy and I really love what's going down over here then get in I say it's exactly it's the same right my stevie I think has brought a prop today mine is So bad and so silly.

And nothing. But it is important to me. I have for years seen girls wearing these bubbles that look like tiny little baby slinkies, little coils, little invisible bubbles. And then like, I don't understand. I know you've got one. I don't understand what's invisible about them. I can see them. And then found out last week that it's because you don't get a kink in your hair when you have a ponytail.

I was like, oh, I thought. they thought that the bubble was invisible in your hair because it was like this so that the hair would go over it and I was like, but it's not working and I can see it. Anyway, bought one. You're just whispering to everyone. It's not working. I can see your bubble, mate.

But no, so when you put your hair in a ponytail and you wear a normal bubble, everyone listening is like, yes, I know, welcome to 2014. You put your hair back, put it in a hair bubble, and then you get like that and then it goes like, suddenly like, there's like a big dent where your bubble was. if you've had it in for all the long time. Invisible, all the sort of cheap version I bought,

it doesn't do that. So when you take your ponytail out after having in all day, your hair is more. Oh, I see. Oh, thank you, Stevie. I mean, absolutely, you're very welcome. And I felt insane when I found out that I didn't know that. I thought I was mental.

I was like, I can see them. Right. Can everyone else not see these? Or is it just me? And then put it in, and you can absolutely see it. But now I feel like a cool girl. Anyway, that was a very long adult thing for both of us,

but I enjoyed it and it was full and it was rich and it was compelling. You know what's also compelling being persuasive? So may I launch in with an anecdote, which is that I can't give any specifics, but we had a family situation where this exact thing would have been very helpful, where different views, different opinions, people not, like now in the cold light of days later, you can absolutely go through with a red pen and go,

now here you should have used this wood, absolutely maybe not have done that or maybe whatever. But at the time, very heated, very, you know, a lot going on. I guess the main thing with persuasion is like, do you care enough to persuade this thing? Yes. You must really want the outcome for this person's who used to change. and if they're a stranger on the bus or somebody who is so far entrenched in their view or whatever,

then you're like, A, is it going to achieve anything and B, is it in any way worth it? Is it if they truly changed? Is that truly going to be helpful, beneficial to your... Can they change? Like, feasibly, can they? And will this, because I know that a lot of people, I find it very interesting reading about America and how Trump has divided families and how big... And at the start, it's all about, you know, how depressed people were not being able to, both sides, not being able to see each other.

But then it's progressed on to like, just people just not speaking to each other anymore. And there just come a point when I think you have to go, there's always the option of these people are unpersuadable. Can I live with that? If you can't, that's absolutely fine. If you genuinely cannot live with the person who has those views, you can't. keep them in your life and it would be so it would be harmful for you to do so i don't know yeah i just thought i'd say that because it's very easy for us to go be calm you're like oh oh yeah i think we're just going to ignore the be calm one because it's it's everyone knows that you should and yet it's like

well people wouldn't be in this mess if they wouldn't feel passionate about the thing and so of course everyone's going to be you know because a lot of the persuasion techniques are all about basically trying to like sell somebody a car or whatever which is a totally different kettle of fish that I'm persuading somebody, you know, of whatever important, you know, passion it is. And I think it's also about being like, can I make, maybe I can't, you know, if you're dealing with the Minneapolis Barbecue King who eats meat three times a day, is he going to go vegetarian after your fantastic speech? No, is he maybe going to try one meat-free day, maybe.

You know, so it's like where, how much ground is actually possible to be gained here? And is there a, could, rather than being like, I want this total thing, can I have a small, could we make some small headway in the right direction? Yes. And then it's like if, you know, it's like, it's like, I don't know, it's exactly what it's saying like, you know, if it's, if the battle is too great, then like it's, there's no shame absolutely in downing tools and being like too big actually for me.

No, thank you. I'm just distracting myself from this. But that's a scientifically backed up persuasive technique, which is the small steps. So someone is less like, it's like also, it's almost as there, the same as haggling. So when you haggle, you go in like, or when you are bargaining some sort of like financial raise or whatever,

you go in, I was taught and I only like only was able to put it into practice when I was older and had a bit more confidence. But I wish I did it sooner. Where when someone says, well, what's your rate for this? And I just would go way higher than they would ever imagine. But say, but I am flexible. So then when they go, oh, can you do it for this? It was higher than they wanted, but it was also higher than I wanted because I'd gone insane.

So it's that kind of tactic that can often work. So for example, yeah, like if you are, for example, much lower level of emotions but still running high, if your partner is a meat eater and you have seen Okina, for example, you can't be like, you can, but it will be less successful if you're like, can you go vegan, please, from now? And more if you were like, you know, this oat milk is actually the same as normal milk. Do you want to try it? Or just be like, just try to like certain things. Let's let's make meat free Monday thing or whatever.

Well, I think that's like several excellent points in one with you's like going too high and then they'll say, oh gosh, okay, no. It's both they've made it, you put the power into their hand. So they feel like that's their idea. And they've compromised on something less than what you initially offered. So with the barbecue king, if you say, can we do three days a week, meat free? And he says, oh, good Lord, no. But what about one? One is all you wanted in the big, you know, but if you ask for one and maybe you only get,

you only get breakfast meat free or whatever. But if you ask for three, maybe you can compromise on one. And so go in, going too high in the hope that it puts the power on them. And so that they choose something that they feel like they took control over that they were, they still had some autonomy. They weren't just being forced to do a thing. I think a big part of persuasion is about helping the other per, rather than you just bellowing like, this is what we're doing now, even though that is how you feel.

it is helping the other person to come to the conclusion of their own. And so that that idea and that choice is their choice and therefore they're able to believe in it and to do it rather than to be forced down their throat. Yeah, definitely. And also as well, you know, you can, again, scientifically proven that people tend to respond, well, actually, that there is a gender split in that males will tend to respond to facts more and females will tend to respond to emotions more, but that's incredibly general. And as a rule, it's best to stick to facts where you can because it tends to make your,

you know, suggestion less of a monologue if you're like, did you know about, and spacing it out. So I very much, look, I may or may not have manipulated my boyfriend into being vegetarian. Maybe I've done that. and maybe it's taken two years and maybe it was all thought out but he thinks he's done out by himself and how did he come to the conclusion did you make him watch the pig movie well i didn't know what the pig movie was that was very much the tipping point um i see and it was a very welcome tipping point because it came at a good point where but um no it's it's more like um i would just sort of because we always say you know if we've read something interesting like oh have you heard this thing or

whatever and i would whenever i saw something like that i would often never say anything because I don't want to make him feel bad as a meat eater. Then I was like, but I say everything else. So I was like, so I just started saying like, oh, because there's so many statistics about how important it is to maybe cut down on that stuff for the world. And he does care. He is worried about climate change, but he's not as worried about like, oh, you know, the, like he can't, he's got the cognitive distance of, you know, his animal and meat.

Like he likes animals, but he hasn't quite. So that's not the avenue to go down if that's not something that is. he already knows like he already likes the idea of, you know, having chickens, but we'll eat chicken. So then to me being like, but it's a chicken isn't going to do anything. Isn't helping. Yeah. Whereas he has been like, God, like the climate change stuff had really got him. So I was like, well, yeah. I mean, I suppose meat is such a big thing part of it. Maybe we should do some sort of meat free Monday thing. Or maybe we should. And he was like, I don't know. And then, but rather than go, no, we should, I was like, I'll just not say anything else and see how it pans out. And then like four or five days later, maybe even a couple of weeks later,

he just started sending me like vegetarian suggesting me like, that's interesting. And then he tried like a vegan burger for like a laugh essentially and was like, this is great. And then it's just kind of snowball from that. But it was, but that is easy because it's, yes, it's an emotional thing for me. But it's not emotional like a viewpoint. It's almost like I am able to, I'm able to calmly.

help someone over a long period of time do that because I think it's actually really important that people do that. But I also absolutely hate preachy vegans more than anything else because I get preached to it and I'm like, I'm a vegan. And they're like, yeah, you want that honey or whatever.

You're like, absolutely get out. Everyone's trying. So I think there's, you know, but then there are certain things that I'm very bad at persuading or explaining. or certainly things through sexism or things that I'll be like, why are you watching a film by that director when we know he's a piece of shit? That's a very unhelpful thing to say halfway through a film

when you've walked home and you're also quite drunk. And even then, even though I didn't even watch the movie, just like how you presented that and your tone made me be like, fuck you. Exactly. And I turned the volume up, even though I didn't even know what I was watching or why I can. I actually then sought out a worse director, put that on. Yeah, absolutely. And I got two screens up.

Yeah, a picture of him. But then because it's all a personal thing. But then that's the biggest kind of barrier to persuading somebody of something that can help them or whatever is defensiveness. And you just cause defensiveness the moment you go in hard. So it's really difficult to fight that. Yeah, I guess in that situation, it's like not to do it at the time. Let them enjoy their movie and then be like, oh, did, you know, oh, I actually read, you know, used to, I used to really enjoy that guy's work, but I actually read this article or this piece or,

you know, I think that's like, I was on the same page as you and I've since, you know, I've seen this thing. I've seen this thing and it makes me feel, um, a little uncomfortable or I, you know, you know, gently seeding the idea. Then I'd be like, oh gosh, I didn't even know that about the director. Oh, wow. Yeah. Of course I, I'm immediately. Of course I'm on board. Exactly what you're saying about persuading your boyfriend about not eating chicken that you, you gave him the thing that he cares about, which is the climate change, to say, like, well, the best way for you to, the best thing for climate change, the thing that you care about is to do this and you would feel better and know that you

were helping, you know, if this, and so if, for example, if, like, you wanted, and one of Rebecca's examples was about, like, people buying too many clothes, like, if one of them was, like, you friend who's constantly on, uh, ASOS or boohoo or, you know, buying a lot of fast fashion that, you know, they definitely, because the, the information is, there, it's quietly trickling in. Like, everybody definitely knows at this point that fast fashion is a bad idea and that, you know, so you just shouting, like, uh, you know this? Like, it makes me be like, I'm going to buy eight more just to piss you off. Like, um, you know, whereas being like, um, hey, you could actually get much better quality things, much cheaper on eBay, you know,

if you got that second hand or like, you can even look up that dress you've been looking at. I bet there's, I bet somebody's, if you type in that exact details, I bet that someone's it on depot or eBay, whatever, and it would be cheaper and you could get better quality. And like, here are all the positives that you could get out of turning your opinion slightly to the left rather than you just shouting, like, people are dying, in which case, like, there's no, of course people are dying, like, there's no, there's no future there. But if someone's like, oh, I see how it would benefit me to stop my fast fashion habit, like, oh, okay, this is positive.

Yeah, also as well, I think, oh, I'm not allowed to do the thing I like. I very much became, because I don't buy fast fashion anymore, and I very much became, the reason I did that was because every time I asked, I think it was my sister, but there's also other people as well, it got, I had a couple of friends that every time I asked them where they'd got something, they'd be like, oh, Deepop. I'd be like, God, what is this Deepop? Like, that's amazing.

Like, they've got like a really cool jacket already. And then when Lauren Bravo came on our episode, about how to break up with fast fashion, she got a book out called the same thing. and I would recommend it highly. I recommend the podcast episode and the book. And she mentioned Deepop. I was like, okay, I have to try this thing.

So also as well, like if you want to persuade people, basically, even if it's not, whenever anyone goes, what's that fun? Just be like, Deepop, eBay, even if it's not. Yeah, just keep saying, oh, this fantastic deal. I got it for a pound on eBay. Just like quietly cedes the idea that, you know, exactly.

Just like get the, yeah, it just needs to be all about positive affirmation, positive, you know, like this, or the changes that people need to make. If you are asking people to, you know, if it's like, to the chicken example, if you're like, you can't have this thing that you enjoy in your life anymore, or is it like you can improve the world, you can make an actual difference in saving the planet. Here's an alternative. Here's an alternative, yeah.

It's been proven that if you speak more slowly, people are more likely to take what you're saying seriously and are more likely to listen to you. And also if you adjust your body language and the way that you are speaking to fit the person that you are speaking to, if they are stood up, you also stand up and say sat down or you invite them to sit down with you. Like you stay on the same level as them at all times because it's all about empathy. It's all about you're not, you're trying to avoid the idea that you're clashing or that you are different at any point that you're just two people and you're both reaching out to each. other and not expecting the change to happen in the conversation. In fact, it will probably never happen in the conversation because even if how nice you are, you still feel if the person who is trying to persuade you to do something or whatever, whenever that happens to me,

I can't help it. Like, I feel defensive immediately. Like, I just don't want to, because I'm just annoyed or it's like a very inbuilt feeling that I can't really control. And but then it will take maybe a day or so. And then I'll be like, yeah, no, that, that was right. If the and hasn't then been like, no, now? Like, why aren't you now? Commit to change immediately. That's so important, I think. That's such a key thing to be like,

it won't happen in this conversation. All you're doing in this conversation is sowing the seeds for this person to allow to come to this conclusion on their own at a later point. A neighbour I dislike the other day once said, I've been thinking a lot about what you said about nationalising the railways. And I was like, I'd obviously had one of my, like, And obviously, and some distant point in the past made, like, I wouldn't have actively sat down with her and explained nationalising the rails. I would have made like some quip about being like, of course we have to do that.

Witty quiff about the nationalising the railway. Sorry, a quips the wrong way. A throwaway comment to the tune of like, we should nationalise the railways. Tess are quipped over her shoulder as she walks into her house with milk. I'm just always shouting. Nationalize the railways. But like, I obviously, I was like, yeah, I obviously made a thing I could. I could genuinely did not remember doing, I made some like, you know, comment about it that she

obviously had genuinely been thinking about for some time and had said sincerely to me, like, I have really changed my mind. I think you're completely right about that. And I had to be like, oh, well, great. I totally don't remember telling you, but I'm thrilled that you've come to that conclusion. Yes, you're sitting with them or you're standing or you're mirroring their body language. You're meeting them on their level. And when we have a conversation with somebody and we, we agree with them or they agree or more importantly, they agree with us, we get a beautiful little hit of dopamine. So we feel genuinely, chemically fantastic, which is also why the first time that you have like an amazing friendship with somebody or a new or a new relationship and you're like,

oh my God, oh my God, you like peas, I like peas. And it's all like, ah, ha ha ha ha. Everyone likes peas, mate. You hate mahogany. I hate mahogany. And then the first time they say something like, you know, oh, I like crocs or something. But you're like like crocodiles. like yeah no crocs the show I know I know I know as soon as they say something it's say something that is so astout like so you know it's I hate women I hate women that you're just like so shocked and then it goes from being like it's a completely the reverse of that feeling it's it's a horrible like oh my god this person I got to get away from this person which is right you know having a holiday or a friend or somebody that with somebody who has different ideas about what

holiday is to you is will feel like a con whereas when you find someone who's like yes I want to do pinnacle others and not move by the pool you're like oh my god and we're off like this feels fantastic and so trying to give that person as much in the persuasion conversation as much dopamine as you possibly can so if they say like I just love chicken or I love dresses be like oh my god I totally agree just like start the conversation there yes chicken is amazing yes fashion is lovely you know just like start the conversation there yes there is something in here that you can agree on and then be like um but if I may like I've found this or I it would be I I've found it's so much cheaper or better on eBay, it'll help, it's climate change for this. It's, you know, whatever then your second point is. But you've given them that lovely dopamine. So when they start the conversation, you're like, oh, they're like, oh, they agree with me. Oh, fantastic. And that has happened totally subconsciously, but already you've, you know, if you're like, I want to paint the wall bright, bright yellow and, you know, the other person is like, that's absolutely disgusting. How can I persuade them not to do that? Be like, yes, I totally agree.

A lovely colour in here would be amazing. You're so good at colours, though. What do you think about maybe white. Really great example. If you just say no, I inherently feel like I'm shit and worthless and like, and low, we're never going to be able to come to any conclusion here because the damage is done. Like I've decided I'm terrible at painting. Whereas if you're like, yellow sounds amazing, but could it be over there out of our house? It could be in your own house in the future.

But as soon as you start with yes, I agree or yes, that is a good choice or yes, anything, The person is, like, you've already given them that. Like, they already feel, you might as well have given them the wall. They feel great, you know. They'll forget that the next sentence is, and also no to the wall. And also no. They're so, like, pox for. But make sure it never ends with no.

Make sure it ends with, but how about dot, dot, dot, dot. You don't just say dot, dot, dot, dot. You also have to think of an example. Unfortunately, yeah. And I think this is my very last one. As more as you can, allow them to think that they have come up with this idea. Yeah. So that's most, you know, you know,

we had a terrible row. My dad and my sister were crying at each other, arguing about where something should go. And her idea was better. And I went to immediate. Immediate. Could be a word. I think it's just mediate, but I went to mediate the situation. And I absolutely agreed with her. And then I took Dad to one side and I was like, why are you so, why, what's going on, champ? Why you so against this idea? And he said, because I didn't think of it. look the fact that Tom's able to just admit that I know that is so impressive I gave him such a big clap for say well done that's so self-aware and like well done you for being able to just be like that's the truth

the truth is I didn't think of this better idea so then we found a compromise that was basically both of their ideas and we all agreed that it was dad's idea and we could all move on you know so when it's a I remember a friend of mine was telling me So when it's like a ideological disagreement, there's not as simple to solve as a wall, like for example, Brexit, I know it's very like Pat now,

but actually a friend of mine was saying on the phone of the day about how his dad voted for Brexit, and my friend said, you know, was telling me about how it, the conversations had basically just, they had to stop talking about it because whenever he was like, like, dad, you have to explain to me why.

his dad would be like, oh great, so now you think I'm a racist. And he was like, whoa, I've not actually said, I'm not saying that. I'm just like, I don't understand why. And it was a racist campaign from my perspective. So I really want to understand because you're not a racist. So I really understand why you would do it. But then obviously there are a lot of things on Twitter. There are a lot of things.

A lot of people, I don't know where I stand on it, but a lot of people think that it doesn't matter why you voted for Brexit. If you voted for Brexit, you are racist. So that is a thing that is said a lot. And so his dad was bringing a lot. Yeah, of course. And that's the thing to remember. It turns out his dad was voted for it because his line of work very specifically is impacted negatively by being in the EU.

As loads of people's are. And once they found out about that, then it was okay because then my friend could say, right, okay, that actually makes sense. And now that kind of almost illuminated both sides because then his dad was like, oh good. So not everyone thinks I'm a racist immediately. And then my friend was like, oh, my dad isn't a racist. So it was actually, you know, or at least even if he still disagrees with him, he can see a logic that isn't malicious there, which I think is so important.

And that's the thing. You know, so many, the farming community voted like in swathes for Brexit because, you know, it's very easy for us to be like, but we'll never work in Paris. You know, be like, loads of people's lives are hugely impacted

by, you know, laws that they can't change and all sorts of stuff. So it's really simple for us to be like, I think the phrasing is actually, on the racist issue is actually not everyone who voted for Brexit is a racist,

but every racist voted for Brexit. No, I've seen that, but I've also seen people saying, sorry, if you voted for Brexit, you're racist. And I think as well, like, that will be,

you know, I'm white, so I don't know how that feels to have seen those billboards and those, you know, I mean, I do know that it was, It was disgusting and I hated it. But I think there's a passion there of like, well, I'm an immigrant.

I'm a first generation, second generation immigrant. And so I don't care whether the laws affected you adversely. You voted for a racist campaign. And so therefore, unfortunately, that makes you a racist. And I think, like, there's many different, a lot of anger and there's many different opinions coming from many different experiences. Right, wrong, it kind of doesn't matter. It's just like there's space for all of those opinions.

But if that is being, if you see that even once, then you go, I'm sharp. No, I'm not. Yeah, exactly. Stevie, I totally agree. Thank you. Thank you. Wow. I actually got goosebumps there. Yeah, did you? The dopamine hit was so strong. So straight through the eyeballs. You can paint whatever all you like. Thank you. If you can and if you deem it worthy to do so, it's always worth really getting to the root cause of why the person thinks the way that they do so that you can then you like the whole and I should have said this

way earlier because I thought it was like an excellent tip the whole point of persuading someone is actually not persuading the other person it's 50% persuading the other person it's 50% you empathize and finding a way to empathize with that person so it's you're doing as much work to try to build it to try to understand why that person thinks the way that they do just as you are to try and bring them around to your way of thinking Yeah, absolutely. It's, if I may end with an analogy that I've just thought of. Great. Rather than trying to get the nail out with the hammer and just bashing it so that you break the nail

and then it's further in, it's in so deep now it's never coming out. Maybe turn the hammer around and use that like claw bit and gently lever it out. That's very good, yeah. Again, just a little insight into the sort of how you're spending your days. And also back to what we said at the start as well about how like, yeah, but sometimes the nail is so far in the wood that if you try and get it out either way, you'll hurt yourself. You'll hurt you.

Stevie, that's so good. I totally agree. That's so good. Exactly. Sometimes you just have to look at that nail and be like, that ain't coming out. That's not for me. That's for somebody with a pneumatic chainsaw.

Like, that's not coming out. I ain't got the tools for this. I'll back away. Leave that nail. But if it looks like it could be levered, oh, gentle, gentle, not bang, bang, bang. Not bang, bang, bang. And on that note. I think that was the perfect way to add.

I hope that helps Rebecca in some way. And I hope else anybody, even if you're not called Rebecca, I hope it helps you. I hope that you can sit down with whoever it is you need to persuade, whether that be decorative, racial, political or career-based. Wow. Yeah, I mean, absolutely, all of those things, I think, are even and require the same. So, yeah, hopefully, I hope anyone is saying, I hope we weren't too full. about the, because, you know, it's obviously very,

it's, that persuasiveness is a whole spectrum, isn't it? A smorgasbord. And sometimes it's just not worth it. But a lot of times it's more worth it than you think it is, I think. But my God, I applaud people who are so, like, you know, the people that, like, well, my sister that basically does it for a living. I just, no, cannot. So draining.

Buy itself a little treat afterwards. Right. So, if you have any more suggestions, as you can see, we are. going through people's suggestions. Please do email us. Nobody Panicpodcast at gmail.com. Please do follow us at Nobody Panic Podcast. And like, follow me just for some fun. I don't really tweet very much, but you know, fine. At StevieM, the SSA 5. I'm at Tessa Coates. Just letters. There's a lot of good I've used to create quite a good meme timeline, but I've left Twitter recently. So what's the point of this? What's the point of this? I have thought I hadn't seen Tessa Cote's

liked above tweets very often. And I, that's normally, that's normally all the fun content. And I thought my two-suitime has been a bit shit recently. Thank you. But when people say that to me, I truly feel like I'm doing God's work. Because I really used to, when I would see good stuff, I'd be like, I must get this to the people as quickly as possible. Yes. But I'm out of the game.

We'll see you next week. See you next week, guys. And good luck out there. Good luck out there. Bye. Bye.