Nobody Panic - How to Be Private with Andrew Hunter Murray (Live at the London Podcast Festival)

Episode Date: January 16, 2024

Best-selling author, critically acclaimed Austentatious improviser, co-host of No Such Thing As A Fish, and all round top egg, Andrew Hunter Murray joins Stevie and Tessa for a special live episode. Coming to you fresh from the London Podcast Festival, the gang discuss how to stay private in a world which increasingly commodifies, celebrates and financially rewards sharing everything you've ever done, with everyone you've ever met. Subscribe to the Nobody Panic Patreon at patreon.com/nobodypanicWant to support Nobody Panic? You can make a one-off donation at https://supporter.acast.com/nobodypanicRecorded by London Podcast Festival and edited by Naomi Parnell for Plosive.Photos by Marco Vittur, jingle by David Dobson.Support this show http://supporter.acast.com/nobodypanic. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hello, I'm Carriad. I'm Sarah. And we are the Weirdo's Book Club podcast. We are doing a very special live show as part of the London Podcast Festival. The date is Thursday, 11th of September. The time is 7pm and our special guest is the brilliant Alan Davies. Tickets from kingsplace.com. Single ladies, it's coming to London.

True on Saturday, the 13th of September. At the London Podcast Festival. The rumours are true. Saturday the 13th of September. At King's Place. Oh, that sounds like a date to me, Harriet. it. But Beyonce!

Thank you so much for having us. Thank you. This is Nobody Panic. We're here at London Podcast Festival. They've got some lovely London Podcast Festival mugs. I took the liberty of everyone here. Saw was actually wrapped.

I took the liberty of pouring some water out. A flies flown in it and died. And that's the energy I want today. Woo-hoo! We won't reveal the topic yet. We'll reveal it when the guest is here. But it's quite... Oh, it's a thinker, isn't it?

I think it's going to be very excited. it's very nice it's the perfect dark cold room sunday evening that we need yeah please you do it any more what do what bring our great bring our great guest to do what okay so we have a really exciting guest we're really happy to have him um he's wonderful a long-time friend of the podcast i'll say um he's a best-selling author i've read both his books and my parents love his books as well and if you haven't read his books he's new ones coming out in april we've heard in april we've heard he's a podcast of no such thing as a fish, which is a massive pocket. Please welcome to the stage.

The wonderful Andrew Hunter Murray, everybody. Oh, look it. He's brought me a wine. He's brought me a wine. But you've got two hands free. Oh, God bless you. He's come out with two glasses of wine in one hand, but the other hand was free.

One for the mic, consummate professional. Never off. And you won't even believe what just happened. No. A fly-free mug was just replaced on the... What? Yeah.

But by who? Well, exactly. Thank you so much for coming in and chatting to us today. How are you doing? I'm fine, thank you. Yes, yeah, he's fine, thank you. Should we tell all the good people... Yeah, do you want to say what you...

Because we sort of thrust it upon you to be like, please do the podcast and also what would you like to discuss as a how-to. And do you want to tell people... Because you had a number of topics, but I think we thought this one was very interesting what you've chosen as the topic. Yeah. Tell the people. is how to be private.

How to be more private. We love it. And what do you think brought you to this question? I know exactly. Because it was a WhatsApp thing you said. Yeah.

You said, I'll come on nobody panic. Provided I don't have to discuss my personal life at all. I was like, okay, maybe we do that as a topic. I feel like I wrote it in a more friendly tone of voice,

but it didn't come across that way to you. There was an emoji of a little smiley, yellow bald man at the end of it. So, yeah, I love it. I really like it. You love to be private. I love it. Yeah.

You're very good at, yeah. Well, there's many things I want to ask you, but also it's about being private, not just, because we were saying it's very easy to, like, obviously we do a podcast and there are certain things that we've done episodes about that I'd be like, oh, maybe I was talking about that and I should have given it some more time or whatever. But it's actually just in everyday life, like, you know,

you're at a dinner and someone's like, oh, tell me about him. I don't know who, why are you hanging out with that woman? Or if she exists. And, like, how do you deflect that? How do you, also on social media? Like how do you maintain some sort of, if you like Instagram, but you don't want to send a picture of your foot enthusiasms, for example. Of course, of course, of course.

So it's a very broad topic. I think we live in a very difficult time. Oh my gosh. And I won't. I don't think anyone's ever said that before. Tell me more. I won't say anything further. I think that's it, isn't it?

Like we're constantly sort of just banging a pan on the edge of the street being like, I don't want to look at this. The NHS. Taking our pants off for the NHS, of course. I can't stress enough. She has got matching shorts on under there. You can't see them. There they are.

I did a French talk so you could see the shorts. Bit of fun. No, I feel like we're constantly just, honestly going to be like, anyone want to look at my holiday, anyone want to look at this, anyone want to look at my children, anyone look at all these things I've done.

You know, we're just like, it's relentless. And it feels, to make this decision, to be private, feels like the surprising thing to do. Taboo, the one last, the only last, the only last taboo. Yeah, wow. No.

Okay. say something else, but let's not. Okay, what was it, do you want to? No, I was going to name loads of bad taboos. I don't think that would have been the correct thing to have said. Continue. Have you ever read a book called The Circle?

Oh, I have actually, yeah. Dave Eggers. Dave Eggers's book, The Circle. We were very taken with it. I don't know if anyone has read it. It is a bit of, certainly a bit of fun. I would say it's like a holiday read about privacy. A holiday read about privacy.

It's about a company that's very clearly Google. It's actually called like, I would say it's very clear Facebook. It's very clearly Facebook. Couldn't have been clearer. Couldn't have been clearer. Me reading and being like, Google, I guess. Don't need to tell me about Google. Okay, right, it's Facebook, gosh.

Okay. I don't think you can't even search for things on the company in the book. Yeah, yeah, sorry. So it's clearly Facebook, and the company just gets, it's about like, what if Facebook became its nth degree, and what if it was just pushed to its final evolution? And at one point in an employee, is forced to wear this necklace

that's a camera, a 360 constant camera and she's basically streaming her life live relentlessly. And the reason they come up with it is that they decide that if you're having an incredibly special or exciting moment or doing something that maybe not many people can get to do like canoeing

down an amazing bit of river, if you're not sharing that with anyone who could never get to canoe that river, then that not sharing should be a crime. And they say privacy is theft. Like to keep it to yourself is to take it away from everyone else not sharing it. And I do feel like while the book is very on the nose, and certainly some of the messages might not have quite got through,

but it does feel like it hits a very human and very current feeling, which is this idea of like I must share and I must be constantly. It's like, did this dinner happen if I didn't, you know, tell everyone about it? Have you seen the ring boxes, which have the small camera built in? No, the engagement ring. No, no. I don't wish for that. Yeah, I get pitched those quite a lot online.

What terrible angle of the camera? Yeah, you're right. Yes. How I say yes, of course. You'd watch it back after. He's like, that is awful. No, no. The ring is taking up most of the focus

in the beginning of it. I have seen a lot of that, that it's very expensive. It costs thousands of pounds to hire a photographer to, like hide in the long grass. Oh, the hiding is the expensive thing. The long grass, of course. Like, while you go on your, like, private, like, hilltop walk

and then you reveal, like, actually, there's all these people hidden in the long grass. I just think if I, if I was proposed to and then discovered that a videographer had been hiding in the long grass, I would never trust anything ever again. Yes. And also, but as well, absolutely fine to do those things. Absolutely. It seems like we don't think it's fine. But it is fine to do those things.

But it's about balancing them, like, and knowing that you're doing it, which I'm fascinated by knowing what you're, knowing why you're doing something and whether you're doing it now performatively because you're so used to doing things performatively online and knowing like what you actually want to do. But look, we've got a big old basket of things here. Yeah. We've got some adult things from the audience basically. So dive in, Andy. Yeah. Diving. Get a pal. Okay. I don't know if this is an adult thing, but an adult thing happened to somebody. They were accidentally c-seed into an important email chain at work. I mean, inadvertent adult thing. Wow, wow, wow, wow. I'm already on the edge of my seat.

Yeah, there was a whole blank bit of paper We needed more context Like I wanted to know what, that's it That's it Oh my God Was it good? I know We'll never know

I charge my electric toothbrush For the first time in a year That's not out I spent the past year Just using it uncharged Just using an analogue toothbrush Oh but it's so, it's not The bristles aren't dense enough

It's not good enough to And I know I've done it It's not good enough I've tried But you have to sort of tap almost It doesn't matter Again Oh yeah, well done you for charging.

Well done you. What you got in there. Bought plane tickets to support my ex in his first marathon. Well, you've technically got to be an adult to have an ex legally. Legally. And to buy plane tickets? Oh, right, can babies not buy plane tickets? I don't think so.

Since when? This best, I have, it's very impressive, but I do have feelings. Went out on a Saturday night, yes, please, all right, where are we going next? To assess the noise levels and anti-social behaviour on a road where we're considering buying a house. Yeah. Yeah, boy. I really like that. You've got to see it in all conditions.

In all weathers. You got to, that's it. I respect that really fully. I love that. Knocked on a wall to see if it was load bearing. That's... Oh, okay. Okay.

Okay, but now get into the meat of taste of it. To that person, I just want to talk to you afterwards about buying a stud and cable detector. Because those are very interesting things to me. Do you have one? Yes, I'd love to talk about it with you. Because so many of them are inadequate. put it to the job. They're really, that's so cheap. Have you got one of the, like, I think

it's, I don't know, sure, should I name the brand? I think it's Phillips. Please do. Just detect studs and cables everywhere you point it. You put it on a piece of foam. Yeah, it's like, don't drill. You put it on your tummy and it's like, that's a pipe. You're like, I don't think it is. It's loco. I've got one here which is, where was it? It was, it said, oh yeah, yeah, here we go.

Gone to work every day, but it's written in quite, no offense, strung out handwriting. Like, this is... Got really what every day? Gone to work every day, but it's like, it's not been a good week. The graphologist All capitals as well. Screaming it.

Oh, on the topic of work. I haven't been happy in my job for a while. So started applying for others, lots of others, and now have two job offers. Yes. That's a good one. Real Mrs. Doubtfire stuff.

I hope you get them both, you know? You just have to run between them. Incredibly the main part of Mrs. Dinner party and Mrs. Doubtfire where Mrs. Doubtfire attempts both dinners. Oh, we're all on board. Is it a nice one? bought a mini dustpan and brush,

especially for the work surfaces. Do you not just get the bit of your hoover and just go, if you're an adult, Stevie? No way, no way. A little tiny for a mouth. Trying to avoid my nephew's questions about whether the tooth fairy is real and where the money comes from.

It comes from fairyland. It comes from fairyland, and then the next question is, what do they do with the teeth? And then you're like, they eat them. Uh-oh. Is that it?

Your face? Does that what they do? But is that the canon? Is that what you're supposed to do? No, no, no, no. That's dark. So why are they paying for them? Why is that dark that they eat them?

What would be dark is they use them as bait? I thought they used a tooth with your own teeth. They're fairies? Yeah. The fairy teeth. I was under the impression they used them as sort of bricks. And they built their homes with them. They built a house out of your own teeth, is it?

That's nice. Yeah. But the economy must be so strong that each brick is a pound, you know, and then they have to carry a big, if they can, I've got a, okay. I understand why the nephew struggled. I didn't just eat them. I think it's fine. Let my 21-year-old flatmate in at 3am and shouted,

don't you know I have a presentation in the morning? Yeah. You tell that kid what. This is a really nice one. Oh yeah, okay, go. Went on holiday by myself to the south of France, inspired by your podcast app. Yes, please.

A one-person trip. Yes, please. This is the most beautiful handwriting I've ever seen, all capitals. Filed an easy jet expense claim. might help you on your holiday. Just, you know. Nice.

Bought a new bracket's cordless vacuum and research, different brands before, and to make sure I got the best one. Is it a Dyson? Full stop, Emily. I like the mystery inherent in this one. Yeah. Watched YouTube videos about desks. Okay, great.

Okay, so privacy. I wanted to ask you some questions, Andy. Yeah. You've got such a big presence on social media. How do you like stride that balance, stride that balance? Sure. aggressively between

staying like private and personal because there are things about your life that you don't, like most things that you don't put on there. And have you ever been in situations where you've had to like, oh God, you know, I've had to deal with that in terms of...

I don't know, I'm quite an advanced case though and I should like wanting to keep things private and I should say like as you said slightly earlier there is absolutely nothing wrong with putting out whatever you want to into the world. It's very nice. It really does help people connect but for whatever reason I love to not do that and I kind of, I sort of, yeah.

You hate people connecting. When you say whatever, famously. No, I don't. That's it. I sort of struggle to identify why. I think it's just... Have you always been like that since you a kid? What, I'm not telling you.

Oh, okay, sorry. Oh, no, you passed a test. You're trying to get out of him. No, that's that. I can't identify. Yeah, probably my family were reasonably like that, like just reasonably private, but you don't really have any context of that growing up.

I didn't grow up in a kind of, like, an alarmingly private situation where I was encouraged not to say anything to anyone, you know. Tessa, like, so obviously we do this podcast and we talk about lots of personal things. But also, like, Tessa, you're very, very good. I was going to say, like, you're very, very good. There are certain things that you do not talk about on the podcast, and no one would know what they were because you literally do. My tennis career, of course. My professional tennis career. She's Greg Rosettes.

Yeah, it's a contemporary reference to me. I'm, it's like Hannah Montana. Miley Cyrus, but it's me Greg Rosetzki. Never in the same room. And now he's 50-year-old Canadian man retired 10 years ago, of course. I'm so glad you knew something about him

because I was like, I cannot carry on this bit at all. Canadian, that's what people know about Greg. Canadian, and that's it. He's Canadian, he's not Tim Henman, poor guy. I suppose it's about finding the thing about being like, these are just the, these are the things I... But then I'm like, but why my tennis career? You know, why have I chosen that this is the things

I'm not going to talk about? And yet I'm so open to telling, like, you know, a diarrhoea story. or something that you're like, that arguably people will be like, don't, don't talk about that. It's kind of just about where you keep the things that you want to keep. It's not automatically the things that mean you feel self-worth in, as in it's not that you get most self-worth out of your tennis career.

Or your diarrhea, of course. Yeah, but it's sort of, it's just knowing which bits you particularly want to fence off. Yeah, and it's so tempting not to do that. And I know some people, some of my friends are really good at getting things out of one. Oh, wow. Yeah, and I've met, I don't know if you've ever. had this experience of meeting someone for the first time. I met someone at a

lunch. Like it was a sort of like... What's that? You were like this. It's sort of a couple of plates. Like breakfast, but not dinner. But like it was a group lunch for people who... For writers and things like that. And I sat next to someone who was unbelievably good

as at just within half an hour. I had mentioned things that I had no intention of mentioning when I left the house that morning that things that I thought are really quite private and integral to me and she's actually a brilliant interviewer for newspapers and you're like oh you can see you can see how it's it's really amazing and it is it is definitely a skill and interviewing is a skill and you know that's why people love desert island discs is it it you're getting to the core

of someone you know and through music like a safe way as well yeah but also it is i think sometimes it's not safe actually no i know people who've cried for for hours and days after doing desalienes because they said too much well just just they felt themselves completely unzipped And they sort of just, you know, slithered out of their outer shell onto the floor. Christ! Yeah. Could not get that from listening to it. Yeah, yeah.

At the lunch, did you feel that you were slithered out of your own skin, unzipped? A little, yeah. It's kind of, it's, yeah. And I didn't mind it too much, but it is striking how. Sometimes you, you know, we all want to be like, we all want to make a good impression on people. And sometimes that when someone's asking you something, often when someone asks me something really direct, I answer because I'm so. because I'm so surprised that I've been asked something that direct and I think, oh yeah, well, I'll just tell you this.

It feels like you're having to, and you're not, you have to, like, defend your position on being private. And actually, there's no need to do that. And it's actually probably really important. Because I've got quite a lot of friends who, I've just got quite a lot of friends. Amazing. And I'm done here.

I've got quite a lot of friends who are sort of influences on Instagram, particularly is the one really where they've they got in the ground level so we're talking 2013 the boom but even if you're not an influencer but if you're just somebody who has been online for a while they particularly are struggling now so they're maybe now in their 30s whereas before they're in their 20s it was all new and exciting they gave a lot of themselves and now it's the case of being like okay well all their money is tied up but for them this is very specific but all their money is tied up in like specific areas of their life that they have given that now they don't think anymore.

For example, like, if you've spent your whole life being, like, online being really, really, really vocal about, like, being single, and then you get a party, like, oh, now I feel bad for all of my followers. Like, what are we doing? And so, but obviously that's a very specific example, but that's a very extreme example. But I do feel like there's a performance that is played on social media

that sometimes you don't know why you're doing something. So I spoke to somebody recently who's getting married, and she was struggling, she's not an influencer, So she was just really struggling about like the outfit because she was like well I'll have to get changed numerous times because obviously the photos and it's like but yeah but for Instagram like who cares about like you'll have them yourself

or just like so I feel like it's really I feel like it's something that you've got to like it's a very personal relationship with and actually having things that you are private about is not weird in any ways actually I think it's quite necessary like I don't talk about my partner at all on the podcast he has a nickname and everything and like that is purely so

that it's mine, you know, and like I don't feel that other people don't have any claim to it. And I think that's becoming quite like less and less. I feel like I've spoken for 20 years. But like less and less. We're captivated. I don't imagine so, but thank you. But yeah, like, yeah. So that is, it's very easy to talk about like superficial privacy in terms of like cookies

on websites and like, and they're like quantifiable things you can do. But I think the privacy of your own mind. Yeah. Where are the cookies on that? Wow. Wow. Oh, wow. No one saw that guy. No, no one saw it. No, yeah. It's an audio media. But yeah, how do you feel about the kind of social media? Like, you know, how do you, because when someone asks you a very direct question, the easiest thing to do is just sort of go like, oh, fine, vague, and then ask them a question and move back. But on social media, it can be quite tricky to know you've been caught into that loop. So it's something I feel very passionate about because I feel like I've been caught in that loop a little bit, and sometimes I will put something out. I'll be like, and I'll think about it for ages. being like, why did I need to, like, show so much of that?

Or, like, why did I need to put a wedding picture on? And then, but it took me, like, two weeks. I was like, why? Because my friends, no. Yeah. I'm doing it for the masses. Yeah. For the press, of course.

I think what I worry about with Instagram is the, like, the amount of times I've poured over a photo, either by someone I don't know who I hate follow. And I hate follow. That's mostly strange. who I hate follows, so I don't actually know who they are. But I do hate follow them, which is such a bleak thing to do with my time.

It's terrifying for anyone who's on social media because you're always like, oh, might someone probably hate follows? That's the thing. It's like, and also, but with friends or distant friends or whatever, the amount of times with other people I've analyzed a photo or something that someone has put up. And then therefore, I'm thinking of that,

if I put up a photo of being like, what are people thinking? Other people will analyze me in that way. It's the soft launch of a new boyfriend of like, Yeah. Bit of a big hand. Bit of a big hand. But that could be you going out with thing from the Adams family.

They don't know. You're soft launching your lover thing. The big hand. So you might put up like a dinner table picture or it's like of you at the dinner table and then it's like... A man's in the background. There's one big huge hand.

It's like a normal soft launch. Just like on your face or something. And then there's a man. There's this like, oh, like, who's she at dinner with? Like, who's, what's this? Soft launching a new boyfriend. It's such a terrifying concept. And yet, like, we all know it.

It's a thing. Oh, my, 100%. Look at the nods. Like, this is a, the soft launch of the new boyfriend. Yeah. So, like, and yeah, it's really, like, and friends, actual real life friends, who I know, knew in real life had a boyfriend.

And then I would see them soft launch with the gram, elbows, bit of hand. Is there, is there an, is there an, is there an, elbow or knee, the gay, knees, knees, knees, Is there an order of joints that goes, like, what's the most? Great question. Like, armpits last, right? And then...

Armpits last. Yeah, yeah. Then a bit side of butt, nude butt. Oh, wow. Okay. Yeah, that's famous people though. I don't think your friends off launching your boyfriend with a nude butt. Is he?

No, no, no. But, like, I think it's, there's a lot of, like, anything that's like, you happen to be a bit of, like, as though they've purposely being cropped out of the photo. Right, right, right. And so it's a... So it's like a, oh, I'm keeping this private, but not really. I'm subtly revealing It's a teaser trailer

It's a teaser trailer Okay now you put it in terms I do understand There's the thing of having been out of the game Of lots of social media for a long time Is I feel like a one year old child in this environment I know nothing of it It's all new to me There is the truth of the teaser trailer

Of the new lover is a big thing Wow I have a problem where I would like to be I am quite a private person But like I struggle When I'm in a social situation And somebody asks me a direct question I will just tell them

And I feel like I feel bad and terrible. Bit put on the spot. Bit put on the spot. And also, then I'll go further and I'll be given because I'll want to like

make it a thing. But so when someone does ask you like a direct question, do you have, do you kind of like, how do you worm out of it? In a way it isn't like, I would prefer,

no comments, sir. It's hard, isn't it? Because you don't want to see. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Sometimes like deflect, make a joke or make a thing or like put the question back on then or. I'm not very good at bobbing and weaving like that,

to be honest. We should practice now. This should be like the doger for way. Here we go. Do you own a horse? Do you own a horse? Wow. That was really powerful.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Same again, but angrier. What's the worst skin condition you've ever had? Oh. See, you're going to tell me. I am. And I'm going through the Rolodex, and that was such a surprising question. Yeah, right?

That was amazing blindsiding. That was brilliant. You're so welcome. Yeah. Because it's just the right amount of being like, you're like, yeah, all right, I will discuss. And you're like, good question. Why not? Yeah, it's got a rational.

I haven't had many. I get quite dry hands in winter. Is that a condition? This is a great example of like, if it's actually okay to be private about some things. He does not want to talk about equestrian matters. Yeah, yeah. And, but happy about skin.

And that's okay. So this I think is where I find a big part of the problem. It's like, for me, that moment of you being like, I'd like to talk about my dry hands and feet. I'm like that's... What do you mean? And feet? I didn't say anything about feet.

There's the foot enthusiasm. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry, I'm sorry. My feet are very supple, actually. I'm so sorry. Yeah. That to me is like, so sorry about that.

That to me is like humanity and like, you know, we're bonding and we're talking and like now we're like, we're having a real chat about something and that to me is like all I ever want from any sort of social interaction. And so it's a really hard line of this like, that I do think that like the things that the slightly surprising questions and the stuff and the talking about the truth things. Like that is where I think the good stuff is. And so then it's hard to find this line that's like, but here are the things. things that aren't for you.

No, you're right. And again, there's nothing, there's nothing wrong with asking those questions or giving the answers. Like, there really isn't. And again, it's all personal preference. Every single bit of this is personal preference. And it's just, yeah, you don't know where your lines are until sometimes you've gone outside them.

And then you feel like, oh, why did I say that about the dry hands, you know, or whatever it is? And it's a really interesting one. And I met someone, I met someone on holiday who was unbelievably, again, this is another person who was very good at asking quite personal questions. and then just like smiling and waiting and leaving this chasm of silence into which you are tempted to pour everything about it yourself. I find that really interesting because those are some of the best conversations you'll ever have,

but you don't, but you have to both be playing. You have both be on court. Yes, and I worry with myself that I'm not in a Machiavellian, not in a purposeful way, just genuinely so interesting people that I feel I must sometimes ask the wrong questions because I do often receive in the morning like a series of text messages that are like, please don't tell anyone about the dry hands Oh wow, do you? Yeah, okay.

You're one of these people. I'm one of those people that you're worried about. But I don't mean to be, I swear to God, I really... No, no, no, it's just like it's a mismatch, isn't it? It's a mismatch of like... You all feel comfortable asking certain questions that you won't know that I might not... I feel like, but you've told me.

And so I'm like, great, I thought we were having a good conversation. And then afterwards you're like, I actually regret what I've said. Okay, so there was a thing recently, and this is actually a great deflection tactic because I do a very factual podcast, which is just all facts, water wall to all facts. And there was a study recently. That's a great deflection.

But there was something about how long people want their conversations to last at, let's say, a party. And almost no one is in a conversation for what they judge to be the right amount of time. Most people find themselves in conversations that go on a bit too long, or they would have liked to stay talking, but the other person didn't want to.

So between you and other people, there's always a slight day. difference and there are about 50,000 metrics on which you can have those slight differences conversationally and in your personality terms and so you're always going to be negotiating these things and you know we're all on different it sounds like we're all on slightly different bits of the privacy spectrum so as long as as long as you know broadly where you are then you know you can you can then act based on that and that's fine if you have like a set thing so if you're aware that like a party like you have like a line that you say that will

like grace gracefully get you out of having to and answer a question and then you just like that's just what what you do when someone says do you own a horse maybe not like shout back of them but like you can go like um i don't know really do you are you into horses you know i mean like i think that's what and if so then if you know it's coming like you know you know you know how to act in that moment i think that's quite like yeah i don't know really do you is it's sort of a catch-all for everything isn't it it's like yeah literally everything literally everything you can I don't know do you yeah it feels very natural in the mouth but if you're asked a question like do you have children. You say, I don't know. Do you?

Oh, you found the one floor. But no, is it like... Have you got a job? Do you don't know? Do you? Actually, it doesn't work for anything? Literally works for absolutely nothing. You got a house? Don't know. A bit.

Because when you said, have you got a house? Can I live in here? I haven't got one. Financial stuff is a thing people can be really open with or really private about and it's... That's one of your privacy is if I may. And I think I actually ended by by you going, I don't talk about money, it's vulgar. That's what I do like to say that.

Oh, that's accused of... I will not discuss the vulgar topic of coin. That's very... That's what you said. I will not discuss the vulgar topic of blah. Whatever you've been asked about. Yes, it's just said in a fun voice. In a fun voice.

So the other person doesn't feel bad, you must always employ the fond voice. And if instead of saying money, you can say coin. You really can get out of a lot. So what would... So what would... Instead of... Oh, issue.

Is you or my sire. My sire. My air. I'm breeding or something like that. Yeah. Yeah. I will not discuss the topic of breeding. The vulgar topic.

The vulgar topic of breeding. Yeah, that's it. See, and you're out. And then it's just like, ha, ha, ha. And then everyone's like, yeah, then everyone's really confused by you for a moment. And they forget really what they've asked. Yeah.

Or you just moon, of course, obsessed with mooning. Love to moon. That is the catch-all for everything. A little moon. Even if I did it now, you wouldn't hate it. I've never suggested otherwise. It'd be confusing, but you wouldn't hate it. Fine.

Okay, so it is interesting about me. I don't like to discuss the vulgar topic of coin. Yeah. You might, did you know that already? Like consciously? Yeah. Wow. Yeah, and it's again.

But don't feel that silence. That's another thing. You're right. You're so right. Because we are doing a podcast. We are doing a podcast and that, and this is very, this is a live fire situation. Don't fill that silence. Three people hosting a podcast.

There was, there was recently a Quaker podcast, which was broadcasting a Quaker meeting. And it was, they're silent in their meetings. until someone's moved to say something. Oh, right. And there was a Quaker cast where they had a brief introduction saying, you're about to hear live Quaker action. And all words, a bit less sort of thrilling than that.

And then they just had 25 minutes of silence and then the episode ended. You're joking. It just ended. I think they might have had an outro as well. But like how many... That was. That was Quaker action. But like how many...

Sorry, is this an ongoing series? I think it was not... I don't know if they kept going for many. I think they wanted to spread the word. Ironically spread the word. tell people how a Quaker meeting goes just in case anybody is not completely... Oh, sorry, yeah, yeah.

So a Quaker meeting is they arrive, you wait and you sit until... I'm not a Quaker, so I don't know exactly, but I think you wait until you are moved to say something, in which case you stand up and say it. Everyone is an equal, I believe, in the... There's no leader. Society of friends, no leader, no followers,

you just, you know, if you're moved to say something, then you do, and if not, then you don't. And people find it amazingly comforting, and, yeah, I think... And anyone can... can go in, anyone can go in and sit there. It's in Fleabag series two. It's probably the biggest...

Oh, yeah, everyone being like, you know what a fucking Quaker meeting is. We were all thinking it, yeah, yeah. We all saw the hot priest at the Quaker meeting. Yeah, yeah. I think it was a faithful rendition of Quaking. It was exactly that. So I just want to ask before, like,

you know, is there anything that you feel like in terms of people who want to be a bit more private online or a bit more private in their person? Like, what would you recommend? Like, I don't know. I'm talking to you as if you're privacy experts. But, like, for example, I would ask myself, like, I remember someone I read somewhere that you should always ask yourself,

do I need to say this and do I need to say this now? But that was sort of to do with, like, activism and stuff. And I don't really tweet about that. I just tweet about, like, eggs and mayonnaise, which are in mayonnaise. For more Twitter content like this. Yeah. How can people take steps to be, to feeling like they have more control? When naturally, all of us think of our lives in terms of,

stories and narratives and the world often wants a story from you whether it's at work or in your personal life or you want one for yourself and that's that again that is also fine but you you do not have to provide it necessarily and I like living in a relatively story less state I don't think I've got a very good narrative for myself and I struggle when people ask you know so what's what's your narrative form what's your narrative yeah like what's the what's the sort of And I don't have one. And I don't mind that. Yeah, you're like actively don't want to like basically like cause drama in your

like create a drama, create a sort of narrative in your own life. And not even as much as drama. Just like I'm here, I'm here for a while. And then I probably won't be after a bit. But that, you know, we'll deal with that when we come to it. And that'll probably be all right. Do you mean like when you leave the party or when you die? When I die.

Okay. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And what a way to look at life. That's so nice. It's quite liberating, you know. That is really liberating. I don't, I've got nothing going on.

People talk about the spot. You've got nothing going on. I mean, I relish there. Definitely have. You've got a very rich life. I do know that. It feels like a rich inner life, I suppose. It's not for anybody else, you know.

It's for you. Yeah. Because then you know that you are living the life that you want to live rather than, because there's that spotlight effect, isn't it? Where like, which, where you kind of, that's, I've read about how when people go to, like, you know, you go to a supermarket and you think, like, oh, everyone's checking me out. everyone's looking at me. I've never thought that in my life.

But like yeah but this writer was talking about it with such like, of course when we all go to ASTA and I was like oh I just kind of go and I'm thinking about the things I need to buy but it shows that obviously like there is but then I read about how the this kind of spotlight effect is kind of happening more and more with people

are experiencing it more and more because they are obviously getting it reinforced by posting online or whatever and then it's getting their response back and feeling like they have an audience which they do have an audience And suddenly all the world is staged and aren't we just players And tomorrow and tomorrow I mean everyone's the centre of the universe to them

I suppose but Yeah I mean there's a reason the Truman show exists as a film You know because it taps into like the greatest human concern Which is everyone's filming me Everyone's Jim Carrey I'm Jim Carrey That's everyone's biggest nightmare You know like there is a there is that film

Is an incredible film as well It's so good But also it remains like a huge point of like all human psychology is this like the Truman Show effect of being like but it could but you could. Wasn't that in the late night? It was before social media. Oh, long before social media. It's a really extraordinary thing but it's from a psychological,

you know, a famous psychological thing which I don't have the name for to hand. Jim Carreyism. Jim Carriism. But it speaks this thing that like we all inherently believe ourselves to be the centre of the story because we literally are. We literally are the centre of the story. We have no sense of what came before us and we'll have no sense of what comes our. after we've been here for a bit and then probably go.

Yeah. I feel like I sort of go in waves, privacy-wise, that, like, sometimes I'm very keen to, like, discuss everything and talk to people about everything going on in my life. And then sometimes I really sort of retreat from that, and I both don't want to talk about myself, and I also don't want to talk about you. You know, I don't...

Do you still want to talk? No, I want to talk, really. Like, I don't want to... Sometimes people bring a lot of, like, gossip and drama and stuff to my table, and sometimes I'm really here for it, and I'm like, yum, yum, yum, yum, yum, yum, yum, yum. And then sometimes I'm like, get out, you know?

I felt like I quite recently I had I was at a I had to go to a wedding which I was heavily involved it was my own no it wasn't but like I was at a wedding of a good friend but I felt like I was doing a having to a lot of work physically and emotionally arts and crafts

various family members are having a crisis like a lot you know you're just crums right your bridesmaiding hard and afterwards I just was like I'm there's nothing I'm a husk I'm a zipped open husk like I've given. People have not only told me so much and said it and told me secrets as well.

I was just like, I was filled to the brim with secrets. I was like, I don't want any more of these secrets. And I had to take myself to Scopoulos. To A&E. To A&E. No, I did myself to Scopoulos, the Mamma Mia Island. Oh, wow. On my own for three days.

I didn't even know you did that. No, private. Private. Yeah, there is lies. I just was like, I don't want to tell anyone I'm going. I just want to go. I don't want to talk to anybody. And I truly just went and I didn't.

the man, the taxi from the ferries at the hotel, the man was like, you come alone? And I was like, yes, yes. He was like, to Mamma Mia Island? And I was like, yes, yes. And then he was like, okay. The first rule of going on holiday and if you're a woman on your own and a man asks you

if you're on your own is to go, yes, I have it. Famously. No, he was like so worried for him. And then he was like, okay, he was like, now lady, we sing. And then he put the full Mamma Mia soundtrack on, yeah, and we sang along together in the car. It was so nice, but even he wants to tell me some drama with his daughter,

and I was like, I don't want to hear it. Like, I'm filled to the brim with secrets, but then sometimes I'll have an Uber, and someone wants to tell me a drama, and I'm like, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. I'm invested, and I want to hear about it, and stuff. And so I think I'm just in this, like, this sort of thing of being, and I think I started doing that because my very early 20s, I remember being, like, you know, when we were, like,

everyone was so broken, we were all so chaotic, and, like, every sort of time I showed up to a party, I remember just, like, there was some total chaos. going on or a new lover or a crazy new thing I was having to do at work or whatever. And I remember showing up this party and be like, oh my God, Tessa's here. Come and meet Tessa. She'll have some crazy story. And then she was like, oh my God, tell us what crazy thing you've been up to now.

And it was such a like, oh, you've like brought in this weird, like, delinquent jester to, like, impress you with your crazy thing. And I felt, I was like, these aren't for you actually, these like, all these things that are happening to me. Like, I don't have to. I'm not performing monkey. I'm not performing monkey. I don't have to share them with you. But sometimes I really love to arrive and be like, you'll never.

ever guess. Yes, I've been there on the receiving end. It's mostly you who has to hear it, you know? I love it. But then sometimes you know, sometimes not. Sometimes I'm like you won't even, I went to Mamma Mirai and you don't even know, you know? So I think I'm checking in with yourself. Am I mad? This is a way, mad way of being? No.

Well, sorry, was that a genuine question? You're asking me, it? If you're mad. Yeah, genuinely. I just suddenly thought, like, is this a crazy way to behave that, like, sometimes I arrive and I give you a blow by blow of my journey on a line bike. Yeah. And then sometimes I go to Mamma, I don't even tell you. No, that's different, there's having different modes and feelings, you know.

Okay. You just said that about half an hour ago, you know? Like, always a rollercoast at this podcast, isn't it? I know, but, like, you said it as well, like, everybody, we're all kind of like assimilating information constantly and our context are changing, constantly. We are changing all the time every

single week to week, day to day, year to year. And so, like, if one day you don't feel, it could be even hormonal, it could be, like, whatever. But that's what I mean about, like, you can be a very private person, but you can also be someone who's very, very, very, pro-prom about certain things but isn't about others. We did the podcast about like egg freezing

and like halfway through I was like, oh, I can't stop crying we shouldn't have done this. But it was like, but I also really loved you talking about it and also I really like talking about it. But suddenly it was like, oh, I don't want to share. And that's okay to be able to like change your mind. It's like consent or like any of those like abstract concepts, concepts. You don't have

to become like this kind of like either a private person, I was going to say like Scrooge, but he's just financially fiscal, do you know what I mean? But like a phantom with your phantom of the opera mask. I don't think I've seen it. I haven't either. Could you tell us a blow by blow of how that goes?

I thought he just tries to have sex with a lady in a theatre by singing into a... Is he very private, the phantom? Is he a private man? He hides under a theatre. I think he's private. He also does wear a mask. You said that immediately.

We all know that. So is he just really keeping himself to himself? He does. I believe he is quite private, yes. The fan is. I think the clues in the name. He feels like somebody who is actually not... He's actually desperate for...

He's singing at her. For connection, isn't he? He's desperate and in love. Oh, but there in lies the multitudes. You can be very private, but also you can sing at a woman, you know, that's fine. What was your original point on the Phantom? I don't know.

Okay, okay. Talking of good interviewers. Yeah. I can't remember why I mentioned Phantom of the Opera, but I'm desperately sorry, I did. No, please don't be sorry. No, I'm so happy you did. No, but I feel like I just sailed out in a little kayak

into waters. I did not know the death of, you know. Understood. But the main point is that don't feel like you're crazy for wanting privacy sometimes and wanting it not other times. And checking in with yourself regularly, I think, is a helpful thing. And that's the funny and weird thing

about when you put things out online is that it's quite tricky to put things out online in one mood and then in another mood think, oh, I will take that post down, but obviously I'm not doing a... I don't make it look like a statement. You know, like I'm taking it down, I'm deleting it. Yeah, and also you're not able to then

remove that knowledge from everyone who's seen it. And again, it doesn't, you know, you might have your account set to, only friends of yours who see things and things like that, but once you put something out into the world, which is something all of us have the ability to do, it's not possible to recall it. Yes, even if you do delete it, yes. Yeah, which I'm sorry, that's a very, very obvious thing to say.

No, no, it's not at all. It's exactly that. It's the me getting the text message the next day that say, please don't tell anybody. That thing I just told you, you know, it's people trying to be like, can I try and recall it? It doesn't matter. It's gone now.

It's out there. It's done. the thing that you tried to keep private is now out in terms of the world and you can delete it or you can ask me not to say but I have already told people online that's not true

I actually am very very good with people's secrets that's good thank you thank you but I bet you are but I expect so like the best way to so like if you feel the need to become more private

and you are listening to this that means that you obviously are thinking about it and so it's something that maybe you want to try try experimenting like put your profile private. Try like, interrogating yourself as to why you want this, you know? That's exactly what I was going to say.

The ultimate thing is just like, why do you feel this need to like tell people all this stuff? Or not tell people anything. Like, either one, you know. Yeah, whichever extreme you feel yourself at, as long as if you don't feel completely happy in that current lane that you're in, then it's a question of being like, but why why am I feeling a need to overshare

and tell people? Maybe it's the person, you know, why, when someone brings up something like, you know, oh, tells about him, Maybe you don't want to tell that person because you've heard them bitching about other people's hymns or hymns as in people not the religious song. Of course.

Make that very clear. Well, he lives under the theatre. He's nice. He's a nice guy. He's a hymns. Brilliant. He's a good guy. I think we should end up in the phantom of the opera

is a good guy with his hands. I just want to say one thing about our Lord and Savior, Dolly Alderton, of course. Sure. That was she, so her very successful memoir, everything I know about love, and then after that, I think it was an enormous surprise

to how successful it was. And then obviously a lot of it is like enormously private life, you know, writ large for everyone. And then she wrote an essay about it a few years after it came out in which she used the phrase,

I think of all the time that she said, I was done with ringing out the flannel of my private life. And I thought that was such an interesting phrase and you could really, it was a nice turn up, you could really imagine someone just like relentlessly being like what else is in here that I can draw on. And I think especially if you in the macro, the micro version of that, which is like at a party, someone's like, oh, this is a good bit of gossip.

This is a crazy fun story or tell that, you know, love story or poo story or weird story or whatever. And you don't want to because you feel a bit sad that day. Or you're like, yeah, okay, everyone's listening to me. Okay, this is my currency. This is how I'm going to make friends. This is my currency. This is how I'm going to make friends is I'm going to tell this like objectively too overshary, too private. story and this will be my thing and then in the macro level for Dolly it's like this is how I'm going to make my money like this is kind of how I'm going to pay my rent is I you know many years ago I'm so a currency of course this is my currency is going to be oversharing money you know many years ago I am I was pitching to write an article for somebody and I wrote they're like can you give me 10 options of a title for something but at the time I was like this is my currency is going to be oversharing and what about my life that could I what of my life what can I ring out from the flannel that it's like I like I'm like I'm like I'm

either make people at the party like me or make the editor give me enough money to pay the rent this week, this year. And I remember writing a bunch of different ideas that got like increasingly more and more personal. And then the last one I remember thinking, that's way too much. I can't give them that.

And it was about, it was actually wasn't even my story. It was a friend's love story and it was about a love triangle and an affair and all of this stuff. It was so personal and it wasn't mine to tell. And I wrote it as the last option. And then it replied immediately and we're like that one please and I remember being like fuck like I'm in such

a mess here because this is my own I've wrung yourself too dry I've run myself too dry because this is all I felt I have to give and then it's like you've got so much other stuff to give that isn't even your flannel and it wasn't even my flannel and so it's like if you find yourself in that position your gut has been like no no I shouldn't I'm unzipped here I was so unzipped I was so slithering and it's like

why are you doing it is it because you haven't got any money and you're using this as a way for money is it like social currency is it emotional currency like what is it that I'm doing that I'm oversharing. Why am I doing? Do I want to impress this person so much? And so I'm just saying like, let me tell you this raucest, worst story that I've got, you know, in a hope of like gaining a foe relationship. And so that's the like the deep unpacking of like, why are you doing this?

They were always going to pick option 10. Of course they picked option 10. Of course they were always going to pick that. Like it was always going to be that thing. And then, and so like in your personal life that people are always, of course people will let you tell your terrible story. Yeah. Of course they will.

Oh, Tess is going to come and tell us great story now because it's like, because you are going to. to telling stories and you, but then sometimes you might not want to, and that's fine. And of course, we change. You'll get the likes for the most intimate story you've ever told. You'll get the social attention. You'll get all the things. And afterwards you'll be like, why?

Because you can't keep doing that. You can't keep mining yourself constantly. The flannel is dry. The flannel is dry. The flannel is dry and the phantom of the opera, he's not dead. And he's not dead. Those are the two takeaways. Don't ring your flannel dry and single women in theatres.

Thank you so much for having us. And thank you so much, Andy, for Andrew. Tamori for coming in. When's your book out? April sometime. April sometime. Keep an eye out. Not you.

You keep an eye out. Keep an eye out for your own book coming out. It will be coming out. Could you tell the people the topic or is it, I mean the title or is it private? No, no, no. It's not private at all. I'll be publicising it quite aggressively at the time. It's called a beginner's guide to breaking and entering.

And I would describe it as a hot criminal romp. Wow. The hot bit, hot bit came out of nowhere. You're going on the cover with that blur. That's amazing. On it go, it's a hot criminal romp. Well, yeah, thank you so much, Andy, and your hot criminal romp.

Thank you. Thank you so much to The King and his place. What's said, The King, everyone. Thank you all to you. Thank you so much for being here. Please give it up for yourself. Give it up for Randy. Give it up for Stevie.

Give it up for me. Thank you so much for coming.