Nobody Panic - How to Break Up with a Friend

Episode Date: January 25, 2022

Romantic breakups are in so many films and books - but what about platonic ones? There are no clichéd sentences you can use ("its not you, it's me!") and no template to follow, but thankfully Stevie and Tessa have been doing some digging and have worked out the best way to part ways. Because you can't choose your family, but you literally can (and should) choose your friends. Subscribe to the Nobody Panic Patreon at patreon.com/nobodypanicWant to support Nobody Panic? You can make a one-off donation at https://supporter.acast.com/nobodypanicRecorded and edited by Naomi Parnell for Plosive.Photos by Marco Vittur, jingle by David Dobson.Follow Nobody Panic on Twitter @NobodyPanicPodSupport this show http://supporter.acast.com/nobodypanic. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hello, I'm Carriad. I'm Sarah. And we are the Weirdo's Book Club podcast. We are doing a very special live show as part of the London Podcast Festival. The date is Thursday, 11th of September. The time is 7pm and our special guest is the brilliant Alan Davies. Tickets from kingsplace.com. Single ladies, it's coming to London.

True on Saturday, the 13th of September. At the London Podcast Festival. The rumours are true. Saturday the 13th of September. At King's Place. Oh, that sounds like a date to me, Harriet. I was answering. I know you were.

How are you doing at home? Could be better. Yeah. Thanks for joining us. This is the podcast. You know it. Or possibly, you've just Googled this particular topic and you've chanced here, in which case, come on in. It's called How to Break Up with a Friend and we're going to do that.

But also, we do every week a different how to. Hey, if you want to listen to them all in one go, we have an audio book on audible called Nobody Panic. We also have a book if you want to read it. this sort of stuff with your eyes. If you like it, have a go. If you don't, no bother. Listen. Yes, I had to break up with a friend.

Because also, as well, there are so many films. I'm not saying a relationship breakup's easy, because it's really not. But it's, at least you have, like, a blueprint. You know, like, oh, like, you've seen Bridget Jones, or you see, oh, it's a very old reference there. But you've seen, like, so many TV shows. The Wedding Singer. The Wedding Singer. A Christmas Carol, Archarham.

Famously. In the Wedding. Charles Dickens. He's. there's probably one in Charles Dickens where he's like, oh, I guess this is fine, this relationship, and then after she's like, wait, this isn't love?

And then she gets rid of the banker and she goes off with the wedding singer. You know, you're so like... Oh, yes. And it's very like you kind of... There's lots of stuff in pop culture about breakups so even though it's the worst, there also is lots of literature,

lots of ways to kind of find your way. Whereas breaking up with a friend, in those same books, films, in fiction, the best friend is always like always the one there like they're always there like you don't actually see many films where it's like actually we don't work as friends and then they just don't hang out anymore the friends are actually always there at the end you never see it you never see it where was it ever discussed only ever once the fox and the hound and then we never

discussed it again because it was so intensely traumatic so I think it's like we don't and always it's this thing of being like your friends will be there for you and you forgive them and you know you take them back and oh oopsie they they they fucked up your entire life but not to worry they can stick around and I think it gives us a very poor sense of when to identify when a person isn't actually very good for you and therefore you need to be like oh actually I don't have to hang around with this person anymore this doesn't have to happen you have this idea of being like well we've got to be BFFs because we brought the necklace when we were age eight And so he says BFFs forever, forever, you know?

Most of my friends actually have a group of friends, and they've been friends like decades. Pretty much all of them, it's quite toxic set up. Or it's quite difficult. And it doesn't mean that they shouldn't be friends. But there's an element of like, we must do everything together that maybe would be better if it was just a bit more like chill.

You can take a break from it and it can be difficult. And if you actually are finding that those people are not good for you, it's actually kind of impossible to identify that because you're like, well, they're of course good for me because they're friends. Before we really get in there and we unpick it and we address how you break up, how you get out of there, how you gently extract yourself in the relationship, what is your adult thing this week? Well, long-time listeners of the podcast will know that I got into coffee, let's say,

with a bang, and I became that person that I hate who's like, I don't think that my coffee. For about two months, I was like, oh, God, I'd have a coffee every day. I've now switched to decaf because I realized it wasn't good for me. And it was also meaning that I was like absolutely wired for the first half of the day and then asleep for the second half the day or just very bad of whatever I was doing for the second half the day. So that's good. That's an adult thing. What a roller coaster. So you're going to coffee, got briefly addicted.

You've had to come off coffee. That's the end. Thank you, Stevie for sharing at. Thank you. I'm Stevie and I will always be a coffee addict. Well done. Mine is I've got two

planters planted up Can you believe that? It is an old wooden ammunitions box I've planted it up and it's got like some ivy bits It's got different things

So it was actually very grown up for me I went I was escorted to the garden centre By my mother And we bought all the right gear And what I do Is I just buy flowers when I pass them on the street that like as in growing flowers that just look nice in the moment and then obviously I'd get them home and they die. My mom was like well you're an idiot obviously

you need to buy them on their way up you know rather than at their peak this is what's going to come into flower in the next couple of weeks and you need to plant them all together and you have to like know all this stuff but I was like oh okay I care I get it. Pocahontas fine tune with nature right my god so she knows every rock and tree and river has a life has a spirit has a name. Exactly. That's Debbie Coates. And then I, so she pointed this plant that I was like, that is the deadest looking

shit I've ever seen. And then she was like, yeah, but look at the, look at its photograph. This is what it's going to become. And I was like, I don't believe you. She was like, well, I know every rock and tree and river and its name. So I'm telling you that if you plant this, it will grow into something colorful and nice. And it has.

She was right. Anyway, I felt very, very great. I've never planted anything properly up. I just buy, I get drunk in the middle of the day and I buy, you know, something, a nice looking pot or whatever. Get pissed by a pot. Who among us hasn't done that? But now, oh, baby, every time I look at them, I think, wowee. Well, congratulations, but unfortunately I'm going to break up with you.

Oh, are you? Why? Well, I don't think, let's not go into the Y, but let's just start. I actually think why is not pretty important, don't you think? You know what, yeah. Well, because I thought we'd just do the breakup because we've also got an excellent and how to identify toxic people in your life, which I would direct you to at this point. First step, you've got to go there. But don't you think that when you then begin the breakup,

it's you go to the other person to also say, if politely, to say perhaps a no. 100%. So yes, you are so right. I thought you wanted me to then go through all the reasons as to how to identify a toxic person. But you know, what you're saying is even, he's very succinct and apt. What you're saying is when you go into this, you've got to go in with a clear mind. And buy that. I mean, you're not, like, you've not got one shoe on and it's 4 a.m. in, like, some club called, like, Honko. Honko revolutions. Look, I've been out a lot recently, and I'm telling you now, they're all called things like

Honko, there's Bonco, there's Conco, and they're the clubs. And you're screaming at each other, and then you're like, this is it! Like, that's not, of course, no one means to do that. But what I'm saying is when you are actually going to break up with somebody, you have a friend, you have to treat it with the respect. that you would hopefully treat like a relationship. Sometimes more so, because you may have been with this person or in the sphere of this person for longer.

And I think the problem is is that people don't. They just ghost or they drift apart or they just never speak again or they just realize they haven't seen them each other for like five years. Or there's like a huge horrible argument and then no one knows what to say and then that's the end. It's like, okay, well, that could be one way. But also, who among us has not had a friend where you're like, this is actually making me feel sad. this is a hard thing to go through whenever they go,

hey, are you free on Friday? You go, oh, allowed when you're looking at your phone. I don't have anything in common anymore, but I've got to go to her birth. I've got to go to a hendoo. I must. And you're like, we have a finite time on this planet. We need to start realizing we're all adults,

and also you're not the only person that person sees. They will have a whole litany of other friends. If you're finding it hard, they're probably also sensing some tension. Maybe you're doing them a faith before you go full like, I just can't be friends with you anymore. I feel that you've got to try all the options. You know, can you be like, okay, so this person I thought is my son, my rock, my ride or die. Maybe I start seeing them as somebody who's like, it's really fun to go for drinks with a bit.

And you might find that I've literally got people like that in my life where I was incredibly close. For whatever reason, it wasn't nice for either of us. and now they're like my fun drinks pal and we go and have drinks it's really nice and i don't talk to them about really deep personal things that i don't ask for them for loads of advice i don't cry on them because i don't need to because i've got other people for that often you can rely on like one person for everything or two people for everything but you know we are we are community animals are we not tessa you're very you know are we not the history of the human human anthropological journey like we rely on a whole community to help us out so absolutely takes a village takes a

of friends. So that was my first thing that I want to say is just that like a breakup is an extreme thing to do with a friend but also important thing to do but there are other options before you get to that breakup. Not ghosting but Casper the friendly ghosting

which we refer to in our book which is where you just sort of take your foot off the gas a little bit because it's just you don't, you're not ignoring them but you're just like maybe you're not as free as you were say see what happens you know maybe that is actually enough Maybe it's just that you were seeing each other too much.

If all of these things don't work, we're talking break up. And as Tessa says, you've got to know going in clear-headed exactly why. Not that you have to maybe lay out in detail all of those reasons, but for yourself, you have to know exactly why. Not only for you to make sense of it and know what it is and like this is why it's happening, but for the other person, if you do just never message them again or you simply drift apart, they will come up with so many reasons that are not the correct reason and they will absolutely tie themselves in so many knots about it and to you it might be so

obvious you went through this thing together they behaved in this way they know what they did and you don't want to speak to them again thank you and to them they have no recollection of that whatsoever and there to them they were just like we went out on Tuesday and then I never approached them again I don't know why and so and then they come up with all these different things And I know it's because a friend of mine had a very best friend at university. And she was a girl, he was a boy, what more can I say? Nothing romantic. And then he got this very intense girlfriend and she wasn't allowed to see him anymore.

And then even when this couple got married and everybody else in their friendship group was invited to the wedding and she wasn't. And it became a really big thing for her. And every time I saw her, it would sort of come up in some way of like, you know, this is, you know, what can I do about? I don't know why it happened and I don't know what it is and I guess I pissed off the girl and blah, blah, blah. And then I was like, I think you're sending yourself insane and I think you need to ask him and just say, what is the reason?

And so she sent this well-worded message that was like, hello, totally understand that our friendship has, you know, that we're not really friends anymore, but it would really mean a lot to me if you could tell me why. And he replied with, after like several weeks, And clearly he and the new wife had written this thing together. And there were three reasons. And each one was more insane than the one before.

And they were so funny. It was like December 2014, you wore the same outfit as Melanie to this party. And when Melanie asked you to change, you didn't change. Oh, so I was expecting something big like, oh, I was in love with you or something. No, no. They were like, literally. pettyest, smallest things you can imagine. They were like, during this group photo in 2017,

you put your arm around Brian in the middle of the picture. Like it was this. Yeah, it was this. And then when she read it, she laughed and laughed and laughed. And then she was like, oh my God. Okay, well, good luck with your life. You two have gone mad. Okay, I can be free.

And it was like, oh, brilliant. It's not really anything I did. It's you, this is on, this is your decision. Okay. And it was like, so I think the, the why is so, so important because otherwise, honestly, there'd be times she would wake up in the night sometimes and like, and like, and this, and would come and be like, do you think it's this? And like, she'd have, she would invented so many things and she just went over and over and over everything she'd ever done. And it turned out wore the same dress as Melanie in 2014. So it's like, yeah, you got to, you got to tell,

you got to, you got to be honest and open. And the more that you can be honest through this, like, you owe it to the end of this friendship just to be like, unless the person is like, listen, you fucked Brian and Brian's my husband. And then it's like, I think we all know what you did. But even then, let's all say it. Say it together. Yep, you fucked Brian. We fucked Brian.

We fucked Brian. We all fucked Brian. Like even if it's like, I never want to speak to you ever again. But let's be all clear. This is the reason why. It's the lying. It's this. It's whatever.

And it's like, it's just so healthy for both of you. Even though, even if the other person's done a bad crime, it's important. Just everyone's like, there's no gray area here. this is black, this is white, this is what's happened, we're moving forward. Naming it and knowing the reason means that the first stage is not even breaking up. It's like having a talk, it's being like, let's just say there's been some, there's been a lot of drama recently with you and a friend. And whenever you drink together, you tend to, like, argue or something. Doing a sort of like, it's been really chaotic recently.

I don't know if you've noticed, whenever we go out, we get drunk and we, we scream at each other or we have all these arguments or it just feels tense or whatever your kind of reason is to then open it up to be like do you feel this as well? Like is this just me? Am I going crazy?

And then that gives them the opportunity to say, oh yes, I feel that too or no. And then you're like, okay, so you're going to play that game, right? Moving on to DefCon level too. But like there is always a way to solve these things

before you then be like, I must break up with you because it is quite, it's weirdly, and it shouldn't be, but it is quite, a jarring thing to sort of like, you know, take a friend for coffee and break up with, we don't hear about it very often, do you? Because it's, we don't do it as in our culture very often. You know, people who've written in and sort of asked us about these sorts of things

have said it's been a breakdown of communication. Well, so then the best thing to do is to try and open those communication levels. I had a friend recently, we've got very different lives, like completely different lives. That means that you can drift apart. And then sometimes I feet have felt bad or she's sort of lashed out a little bit, obviously, you know, made that comments like, you know, oh, you've, you've, you've, you've, you've, you've, you've, you've, you've, you never pick up the phone or, you know, little things like, okay, now this is getting, this is actually going to, it's going to, it's going to teach her over into toxic if we don't sort this out. And I didn't want to, because I was a bit like, oh, I don't want to feel bad on it, but I went and we had lunch,

and she was talking about the stuff that had been happening in our life. And I was like, oh my God, right. So you've been absolutely stressed out of your mind over the last few months. And that's, and that's why that maybe we haven't connected. And actually, both of us have taken a step forwards rather than take a step back and been like you know let's talk more let's hang out more and actually i've rediscovered the friend that i had that it's so nice to be like oh i just go feel great now like she can come around and she can like dog sit and she can do like she's so great but it's just it's so easy to go it's quite scary how easy it would have been to have just let go and gone like we just don't we're not the same people by and sometimes that is the case but sometimes you've just got to

ask them like what's going on what's going on Why are we fighting every time we get drunk? Me and this friend don't do that. But like, why are we fighting every time we get drunk? Why, why can't, why aren't you talking to me anymore? Why don't you want to hang out as much anymore? Why do you feel the need to make you? You've been a bit critical recently of me, like, in front of people,

and it makes me feel a little bit sad. Like, there are so many ways of saying things that aren't like, you're being a bitch and I, and it's not fair. Like, there are so many ways of saying things in like a nice way. As long as, all it takes is the biggest thing, which is to swallow your own pride so that you don't go like, fuck you to go like okay i'm going to enter this see see yourself as like you you're you're going to enter this like a sort of magical mystical being that is like a wise elf being like and now we're

going to say because then if they can't meet you then you can walk away from that being like i have done everything i can this is on you now so now i'm not going to be your friend anymore and then when you look back you won't feel that horrible guilt of like could i have done more because you'd be like i literally did everything um so i really I'm desperate for you to not break up with your friend, but I think like that's just the level one. Yeah, I often think a breakup is a big, a big and very permanent step in a friendship,

and it doesn't have to be, unless it's been true crimes. Like, I don't think there, it has to be permanency. It can just be like a downgrading of friendship from, you know, BFF to simply F. Even when you were, and this is how like entrenched it is, even when you were doing your impression of a magical, calm, mystical elf, you still went for, you are really critical of me in public. And then you follow up with, and this is how I feel about it. But it's like, it's exactly that of being like, I sometimes get, I feel very defensive

when you use phrases like that rather than being like, you've done, you've done this. And even so it's so hard to do, even when you like try your absolute best to be like, these are just my I statements. This is just how I feel. I'm not accusing you of anything. That's a great tip. And then out it comes. I feel like this.

And then they can't really argue with that. Whereas if you say to me, you are really critical of me in public, I would say, fuck you, no, I'm not, or whatever. Whether it is if you're like, I, and I know this is me just being oversensitive, but I always get a bit sensitive when you make, when there's jokes about this. And then it's like there's nothing that the person can do about that because you've said how you feel. Yeah, they can't go, no, you don't feel like that. Whereas they can say, no, I haven't done that.

No, I haven't done that. That's a very good point. Yeah. And that's the thing like it. So, you know, we both know it. We preach it all the time. And yet it's so hard to actually, like, put it into practice. And that's why.

And also, like, you've got to go into these things with, like, as much space and time. And maybe this is, like, a long walk. And you bring up, you know, these things. Not a sort of, you're about to go. Not at the party. Not in the bathroom at the party. Not as you're on the last step of the tube once. I burst into tears.

And so you'd be really horrible recently and got off the tube. pointless what did that achieve what did that achieve you know and I well because it's frightening so yeah so you wait till you're like it's marble arch now goodbye you wait until marble arch you have to let them have that say their bit too and that's the hard part because also you don't want to hear it like you don't want to hear someone go well because also especially if it's something like well personally it would be with me I wouldn't want to hear it because I'd be frightened of hearing it because I'd be like well what if they say like well yeah because you're no fun or like because you are stupid or whatever and I'd be like oh god you don't you don't want to give any oxygen to anything

that you've been struggling with because you don't want to hear maybe the thing that you probably need to hear which is that your friend doesn't respect you or your friend and they're not going to say I don't respect you but often toxic friendships are not as simple as oh one person's just like behaving a bit with it's often a very deep thing it could be like they're jealous of your job it could be you're jealous of their job it could be like they're jealous of your lifestyle, you're jealous of theirs. It could even be, it could be as deep as yet. They, they, they, they, like you, but they just think you're a bit of a joke. Like, and that's, and that sounds really like, what? But, like, I've actually had friendships where, like, I've had to

stop and sort of set boundaries. I've been like, you just think I'm an idiot. And I, and I've had to have the way with it to be like, I don't think I am an idiot. I think you're doing, and I, you know, you're doing me down. And that's a very, it's only in therapy that I'm able to, and I'm able to, to do that because otherwise you just go like, I'm a piece of shit. But like, you don't want to hear them say, well, you need to sort your life out. Because it's upsetting. So I can completely understand why you would metaphorically want to shout, you've been very critical and then jump off of a tube, because it's not nice to hear somebody say the reasons why they are being critical of you because, or like, you've been really horrible to be. Because there's a reason

they've been horrible to you and you just don't want to know. And it's just like, but also as well, what you said about saying, I sentences, I need some space. I've been really sensitive recently. Taking it on yourself, you're like, well, I shouldn't have to do that when like she's been a bitch, yeah, fine, but it does, it will help things in the long run, you'll get more information, you'll get more, you'll be able to talk better,

and also people appreciate when you don't accuse them, like I did a scandal there. Also, there's a real like subtle difference between being like, maybe like we need some space and like, I need some space from you because no one can then go, no, you don't, because it's like, no, I do. But then as well, for very bold

crimes, it actually is, helpful and I think I've heard friends, a couple of friends, where something has been unequivocally quite bad and I know I've had to be like, well, I don't want to hang out with them. I mean, I can't. And they almost understand that because of the thing that's happened. But I've not ever said it. And then you just let it just sort of eat away at you and them. When you see them in public, you sort of like pretend that it's fine, but it's not fine. And then every time I see them, or they say, yes, you get like, oh, I can't make that. And you're like, I know why. you can't make that because you're embarrassed to look me in the eye or whatever because of the thing

that you did or the thing that's going on or whatever. And it's this horrible feeling and it makes me feel so tense and upset when all I need to do is like I think we need a break because while you continue to do this, we can't be friends in this moment. I'm not saying we'll never be friends again, but I'm saying at this point it's too tricky for me. So we need some breathing room. And I think if you say that then it's just, yeah, everyone's on the same page. And it's not a mean thing. It's not said in a mean way, it's set in a way for both of you. And I think, but it's so hard to do. What I'm saying is, you know, I'm doing a podcast episode saying like how to break up a friend, I can't do it. But like, it's saying, why do you can't do it? Because, because saying the,

I think you, I think I can do it. I think what I've been saying, I've been thinking is I can't go, I'm going to break up with you like I'm equating it to a relationship again, which it's, of course it is a relationship, but it's not a romantic relationship and they are different. friendships you don't need to say sometimes i need to break up with you you can say i think we need some space and that's actually what you're doing and you can give it more chances than you maybe should with the relationship and also as well that might be enough to kind of cause a drift but then the final level would be i don't think we can be friends anymore and i don't think i could do that until i've tried the one i think 100%. i think a big part of this i think for you it's like i'm actually would not i don't want

it to be the end, you know? I don't want to break up, is the truth of the matter. I just know that this is like, everybody from the sidelines of my life, metaphorical or real, like, obviously, just walk away, sister. And you're like, it's actually very hard

because I had a nice time with this person. And it doesn't help the more people that you tell, the more that you think it through, the more that you're like, oh, God, obviously I should go. And you're like, I don't want to go. And so you don't have to go. It's okay to be like, send a text, to be like, Or if you're brave enough to talk about it in person, to be like, I need some space for these reasons.

Here they are, X, Y, Z. And I'm not saying this is forever, but this is certainly for the foreseeable while this thing is happening or until we are in a better place or whatever. And just to be, you know, because otherwise if you don't communicate, it just, there's rot forever until there's nothing good there. Whereas if you can just like, clean break, we're out, we drain the boil. we, you know, and maybe we can heal again and we can have a new friendship out of it, but we don't, nothing's going to grow on this like puss riddled, you know, friendship where nobody talked about their truths together.

And oh my God, going to be like, oh my God, I have to talk about this thing. But then when it's out, oh my God, it's so freeing, it's so light, it's like now we can, now we can build, now we can be a person and this isn't just like a big anchor around my neck of being like, what am I going to do about, what am I going to do about this? And here are all the things I should be doing.

And yet I'm not and blah, blah, blah. So as with always, how many episodes ends with us shouting, communicate. You've got to communicate. Yeah. And also don't do the thing that I see people doing sometimes, even at my ripe old age, people don't. You're like, guys, don't drag anyone on social media. Come on.

We're bigger than this. We don't need a written visual record that can be consulted again and again of this time. You know, like just, you don't, like, you don't need to. sub-tweet, you don't need to, like, do the snarky caption, the very pointed TikTok. We don't need it. Or Facebook status, if you're my, I don't know, grandma. Your behaviour in this scenario should be geared around, will I regret this later? Do I, how can I leave this situation knowing I've acted and done everything I can, impeccably,

so that later on I can honestly say that I did it all I could to sort of make this smooth. Okay, okay, fine. Drain this. Rather pus. Oh, use that fine pointed needle. Yeah, did you truly do everything you possibly could? Or did you just whack a bandage over it and say, I tried? No, you didn't.

Get your cards on the table. See where you can go from here. And be honest. And the amount of times the other person will be surprised to discover your truths. So if there is somebody in your life that when you've been listening to this, you've been thinking, uh-oh, that's what I'm thinking about, Susan. Oh, Susan. And how did you know?

Yeah, I hope some of this is helpful. I hope some of it inspires you to be very brave and to do a little bit of dissection on some of your relationships that aren't serving you right now. Be like, okay, what does this say about me that I get so defensive when this person calls or what is it, what's going on? And also, I think take into account that, like, we've been through something pretty rough and everybody is pretty crazy.

Tessa said the other day, like, I showed her what's up, my friend sent me. And I was like, what does this mean? And Tesla was like, every WhatsApp I'm getting from my friends at the moment is crazy. And we were talking about this on the podcast a few months ago. When everything opened back up again, we were like, oh, people are being socially insane. And it's just continued for like six months. It is wild. It is wild out of that.

It is wild out of that. You know, be there to be like, hey, hey kid, I'm feeling pretty wild. How are you feeling? And then talk it through and then be like, yeah, this was good. But I'm going to give us a little bit of space because I need to deal with my wild shit. And you seems like you need to deal. some of that. And yeah, but don't just, don't just get, don't just go into the woods without, without saying

why, you know, without saying it. Because otherwise the other person, you're going to go great, they're going to go great, you're going to carry that with you forever. Communicate and cut yourself a break because, you know, friendship, be hard. Friendship does be hard. Right. Friendship does be hard, you know. Thank you so much, Tessa.

I found that very helpful, small therapy session halfway through, as it always is. And I hope you at home found that helpful. and please do follow us at Nobody PanicPanick pod and if you have any episode suggestions Nobody Panic Podcast at gmail.com You can also follow us on Twitter I'm at Tessie Coates, she's at Stevie M but the S, hold on to your hats, it's a five.

What news to me? Thank you so much for listening. We really, really appreciate it. We've also got a Patreon that if you want to support the podcast and help us keep doing it, we would love for you to sign up. We've got some fun stuff for Patreon subscribers.

I don't know any of the jargon. and I'm so sorry, but like, we're there and it's a lot of fun. And see you next week for more Nobody Panic. See you next week, everyone. Bye!