Nobody Panic - How to Cope with Being Awkward with Fern Brady

Episode Date: April 25, 2023

Bestselling author and comedian Fern Brady chats to Stevie and Tessa about how to accept and embrace your awkwardness rather than sit up til 5am thinking about that thing you said in 2009.Find Fern on Twitter: @FernBrady and Instagram: @fernfrombathgateBuy Fern's book 'Strong female Character' here.Subscribe to the Nobody Panic Patreon at patreon.com/nobodypanicWant to support Nobody Panic? You can make a one-off donation at https://supporter.acast.com/nobodypanicRecorded and edited by Naomi Parnell for Plosive.Photos by Marco Vittur, jingle by David Dobson.Support this show http://supporter.acast.com/nobodypanic.Support this show http://supporter.acast.com/nobodypanic. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hello, I'm Carriad. I'm Sarah. And we are the Weirdo's Book Club podcast. We are doing a very special live show as part of the London Podcast Festival. The date is Thursday, 11th of September. The time is 7pm and our special guest is the brilliant Alan Davies. Tickets from kingsplace.com. Single ladies, it's coming to London.

True on Saturday, the 13th of September. At the London Podcast Festival. The rumours are true. Saturday the 13th of September. At King's Place. Oh, that sounds like a date to me, Harriet. Hello, welcome to Nobody Panic And we've, it's a throttle.

Today coming in to help us just sort of discuss how to how to cope with being awkward and awkward situations is obviously a comedian, but now author. That's right. Not just author. Best selling author. Yeah. Number three.

It'll be number one next week. You're going to not carry off. And number one in the audiobooks. Yeah, yeah, that surprised me because I really, when I did the audio book, I felt like I was learning to read. Did you guys have that for your one? Yes.

It was a really weird experience. I thought my audiobook was going to be amazing. And then I got this stinking cold the week of doing it. And I couldn't reschedule. So it just was terrible. And I remember not wanting it to sound downbeat and depressed, but people like the audiobook. Yeah, you've got a good voice.

You've got a beautiful voice. I'm so self-conscious of it because I have an English voice in my head because I've lived in England for like 13 years. So whenever I hear my voice, it's really like there's quite a big gap between my inner monologue. I have that with um Northern and I've gone really southern and posh. And I've heard hear my voice. I'm like, oh God, I sound like Dame Maggie Smith. We haven't even said your name. If you haven't realised, because you haven't read the title of the podcast or it's Fern Brady, of course. It's firm Brady.

That's who's been talking. Author, comedian, Taskmaster Star. Oh my God. Nation's darling. Yes. Sad it's over. Buy her book, strong female character now. Do you want to just like give a little precy of like in your words of what the book is? well I didn't want to do a book that was like

autism memoir there was a lot of late-diagnosed autistic women's books kicking about and I wanted to do a thing that was like a critique of womanhood from an autistic perspective because there's a lot of things women do that I don't understand at all like around diet

or sex and things so yeah it's basically a porno about autism right there we go that's I'm going for I'm not finished I'm only halfway through it is so oh dear

I was hoping you hadn't read it I think it's so beautifully beautifully written and it's so funny and it's also it's genuinely fantastic thank you I'm proud of it

definitely well I was going to say to you so you've already read there's a bit early on in the book where I said a really embarrassing thing to try and give

someone advice when they just had a baby because for ages I didn't know how to talk to people who just had babies because I didn't have much interest in them. So I just couldn't think of the right thing to say. And then there was a comedian who'd just had a baby and they were really tired because the baby kept crying.

So I said, oh, it might be crying because sometimes when the mum is changing the baby's nappy, a hair falls off her head and gets trapped in its willy. Helpful. She might not be like that. She probably having four of that. Literally everyone in the room looked at me. me like I was a pedophile. It was awful.

But weirdly since the books come out, because I've had like literally hundreds of messages from other autistic women and just people generally about the book. And this woman messaged being like, I had to leave my mother and baby group for sharing the same fact. And she was like, I couldn't go back. Because it was so embarrassing. It's a good fact.

I had read it in The Guardian that day. So it seemed like it was okay to say. Yeah, I mean, it is okay to say, but there is, yeah, I know what it mean, like the idea of just meant, it's like there's an unspoken rule that you can't mention the baby's genitalia. You've hit on something good there. I don't do well with unspoken rules. Understood, understood. Yeah, unless someone says something to me, it's almost like computer algorithms and stuff. You have to tell AI exactly what you want it to do.

I don't know if that's changing that. I'm talking as if I know stuff about robots. I don't know if you... Listen, this entire podcast is us just talking confidently about things we know about. So don't you worry. Believe, commit. Everyone will be like, yeah, that sounds real. Yeah, yeah.

So if someone, sometimes people say things to me and there's a little unspoken rule in there. And I don't... Well, like my agent, a lot of the time he'll tell... He's actually worked out now how to talk to me. But for ages, he would say something to me and then there might be a little secret rule. And then he would find out that I didn't know about the secret rule. What kind of secret rule? Well, like for years, I would say to people,

if I was having a meeting with producers and they said it was a general chat, I would be like, what is the chat going to be about though? You're not supposed to say that. Or there's just millions. 100%. There's somebody in my family with a late diagnosis in female autism.

And it's helped us so much. Like, I just feel like as a family, we're all like, oh, okay, okay. Okay, now we all get it and we all like understand that like you know a lot about what the book is talking about being like people just thought I was annoying and you're like yeah I wasn't being annoying

I just you didn't say what the rules were yeah yeah you know and there is so much of that unspoken once this person got invited to a party in a in a casual phrasing that was to me so obvious that they were like no it's sort of like when you invite a neighbour but really you're just saying we're going to have a party it'll be noisy do pop in

but really we just mean like, we don't want you to pop in. What we mean is just we're having a party and we're telling you about the noise, don't pop in. And this person to me was like, but they want me to come. And I was so like, oh gosh. Like, there's so much, especially in a British way, we've got so many of these little unspoken etiquette, stupid rules that someone's like, but when did you all learn the rules? They clearly said pop into the party. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I did.

And she did go and she was the first one there. I do that all the same. Because they said to come and this is when it started. So there she was. Like that was the instructions. And I was like, I know. So I just, I did really, really understand how incredibly frustrating must be like, but you said it was this.

If someone tells me a party starts at 7pm, I will be there at 7pm. And recently I've started trying to be casually late to things. And then I'll still get there at like 10 past 7. And you're really stressed about it. So yeah. I'm so sorry, I'm late. Yeah. I can't, because people never actually mean arrive at that time.

And I've also realized, because for a lot of gigs as well, promoters will say get here at this time because they're accounting for comedians constantly being late and disorganized. I'm always on time for gigs, a bit too much on time. I think you can take that as a pressure off your shoulders because I think in the comedy world, people are thrilled that you've arrived on time. Yes, you're supposed to do the triangle of Be Good, Nice and On Time. I had an agent that told me to get two out of the three, right?

Yeah, for me, I'm good and nice. So I can't always control that I'm going to be good on stage, so I have to do the other two. Yeah, that's it. Be nice to work with, do good work or do it on time. I've never heard about that time. I've not been doing any of those things. On time, bitch, late.

When I first started being a freelance journalist, someone said that to me, those are your three, you can pick, you can have two out of these three. Because if you're, if you deliver the work on time and it's good, everyone's like, fantastic, and you can be a real dick to work with. If you deliver the work late, but you're nice, and the work is good, people don't mind. And what's the third option? You're not nice. No, you're not. You're not nice.

You're not good. You can be on time and nice, but you're not good. Those things that you're saying about, like, those unspoken rules. It is fine for you to say a sort of amusing fact that you've read about in The Guardian that is kind. It's not in it because it isn't actually inappropriate. It's on other people to not make you feel bad for something that is, fine? I think this comedian was saying,

we don't know why the baby isn't sleeping and you were like, here's an option. I was like, I bet you've never heard this one before. Because you weren't saying it to be funny. You were like, is this helpful? That is an option. Well, what I was going to say is something that made me feel better about being awkward.

I think I'm getting less awkward as I get older just because I'm more confident. More confident. Sorry, I just knocked the equipment. As I said, I was less awkward. I'm getting way better as you smash into the... But it's something that, I had to judge a comedy competition last autumn

it was awful because they were all really good not because people were from this anyway there was a few people I met there who were like oh I'm so awkward and they reminded me of me when I was new and the more you say I'm so awkward and say it to people

it's almost like a needy thing that you're asking for reassurance and you just want to say to them like everyone's worrying about what they're doing so yeah You don't need to, like, get in your head so much about it. Like, much like the awkward, when we say awkward things, afterwards, we're like, everybody's thinking about this thing I said. It was like, everyone's thinking about their own thing that they said.

Like, everyone's too busy in their own head. And then maybe a moment, but at most, it's like a, I was a weird thing to say. And then the conversation moves on. Yeah, yeah. It's actually the bit that's the worst bit is then when the person, or whenever I've said anything weird or odd, or I've gone like, oh, God, I've completely, my thing is I feel like when I started doing comedy

that all the comedians would be like chatting and like doing bits and then I'd be like yeah yeah and then I'd say something and everyone would just go quiet and stop talking I'm like okay I ruined the bit and then I would spend the whole time I mean like I ruined now the next thing I have to say it had to be so funny to make up for the bit that I've ruined

like I've got to like do an accent or something or like you know it's a big Welsh maybe and then I would just leave the event yeah I find that kind of bad difficult yeah you have to constantly but actually the moment I was like oh don't try and be funny, just talk.

I was like, oh, well, we had on two comedians on the show. We had totally Tom One who'd made this amazing film called All My Friends Hate Me. And they came on the podcast, and they were slightly older than us. And they were also. So cool. It's so cool. They were very much like, because when we were doing our sketch group, they were sort of the boys in the year above. Oh, right.

And so they were very, very cool. But also, I would see them at parties. At one point, I went into a bedroom at a party at two in the morning. And they were in the cupboard. They were in the wardrobe and they were coming, and they had maybe a crowd of perhaps 18 adoring people as they came in and out of the cupboard, like, doing a bit. And I just, like, joined the, like, adoring fans watching. Yeah, they were just, they were just, they were so much like the prom king. So when they came on the podcast and talked about how they would leave those things being like, everyone hates me, everyone thinks I'm cringe.

I'm the worst boy. We were like, oh my God. Like, what's the, what's this there? Nobody thinks they've done it right. Everybody thinks they're the worst true at the party and they're leaving being like, I find. I socially fucked it. I socially fucked it. That's the other thing is I'll sometimes get in my head about going to parties and then

I'll think, but lots of people feel awkward at parties. That's why British people are drunk so much of the time because they feel, we all learn to socialise through alcohol. Actually, I was reading some interesting study about why other Europeans don't drink the same as us. And basically, if, when you're an awkward teenager, the way that you learn to get off with someone or chat someone up is you have to be drunk while doing it, then you're only ever going to feel comfortable in those scenarios while you're drunk,

whereas other countries don't have that. So their teenagers are just getting off with each other sober? What are they doing? They don't have the binge drinking thing forced on them, I guess. So then they're forced to actually, like they just learn how to interact without having to be. We do definitely have this huge teenage culture of being like, well, I was drunk, so it was fine. so I could do all this stuff. Yeah.

It's only in the last, like, year I've stopped drinking in every social situation because I realised that I didn't know how to socialise if I wasn't, at least one wine. That was, even gigs, everything. And so I stopped doing it. The first, like, two weeks, it was like, everyone was just, like, chatting and stuff. And then I had, like, a megaphone and was just saying things. And I'd hear them, like, echo. Like, I'd really feel what I was saying.

We're like, I've said a thing. And they'd be like, oh, God. Like, it felt so. stuck, like every interaction was so, like, intense. And then after about, I think I went to a wedding. That was when I was like, okay, I've nailed it. Like, I went to a wedding and didn't drink. And started to be like, well, if I can do that, I can do this.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then you really learn how to talk. And also, it feels me embarrassing because you're like, God, I'm re-learning how, I'm learning how to talk to people, and I'm 35, and I don't have to talk to people. But that is just, and that is for, you know, people's thinking that they're awkward or having, own idea. Most people are awkward.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's just that they've had a wine. That's, so I'm, I stopped, um, binge drinking a few years ago and I, a couple of years after I moved to London. Um, and now I feel fine in most social situation, like I don't, I actually would feel out of control if I was drunk. I think I get drunk maybe twice a year or something. I actually think I'm like addicted to the feeling of smugness from not drinking. I get, such a kick out of it. But I did start to drink more when I was writing the book

because I love drinking alone. I don't know why that's seen as an alcoholic thing because most people I know who have a problem with drink drink socially. It is weird, isn't it? Yeah. I've actually, yesterday I was like, because I've started drinking or like I got introduced to vodka martinis

and I love them and but I can't drink like two maximum of them. Otherwise I'm just I know that you drink them quite slowly. Whereas wine I completely neck it back and it's a real social thing for me. So I in my head like, I think maybe I'll only drink if I'm alone. And then I was like, that's insane. But actually, what I mean by that is that I never get drunk when I'm on my own.

I just like, I drink for the sake of enjoying a drink. Because when I'm out, I'll drink because I'm like awkwardness, awkwardness, awkwardness. And I think whether it's alcohol, I almost feel like I've spoken too much about that. But like, anyone's got their thing that they mask their awkwardness with. And like, everybody is masking their awkwardness all the time or trying not to appear awkward all the time. I can't mentally deal with hangovers at all now. I get terrible, like, terrible depression and, is it called anxiety? Anxiety.

Yeah. Also, do you have the thing, because I think something that I've found, as I've got older, is that I want to message people more if I feel like I've been awkward. And that can, like, the other day, I met, I saw our friend, Jim, who'd just been nominated for a BAFTA. And I was, like, three days after. And I was just so excited to see him. and I just kept being like,

it's so great, I'm not even drunk, I was just repeating yourself. And you're like, okay, I think I was actually quite embarrassing. It's like, he's quite contained as a guy,

and I was like, I just went on too long about it. And so like I mess with him and I'm really, okay, I know, like, let's all be honest with ourselves.

I was weird. Um, I was just really excited and I'm so happy for you. But now I'll be normal because I got out of my assistant or whatever. And obviously he's like, no,

it's fine, it's fine, it's fine. And that, but then I think in the past, I would never have thought to do that. I think I'm getting more aware of awkwardness as I get older. And if I hadn't had done that, it would have been fine.

Like, it would have been much better to just kind of let it lie. Yeah. I could let it be. I just think if you've said an awkward thing, don't beat yourself up about it for a long time after and ruminate on it. Because I think, like, for me, for ages, I would, because I'm a sociable person, but I enjoy socialising on my own. to, I like to socialise with like two or three people at once rather than like a big,

big group of people. And I realised the more I beat myself up about saying an awkward thing at a social situation, the more I would stop going to social events and talk myself out of it. So you can end up reinforcing this negative stereotype about yourself in your head. Also, I think the baby steps thing, so like the fact that you just said about the spiral, you can get into this spiral once you've done it once by like so say you identify what your masking thing is

like what do I do that maybe isn't healthy that kind of stops me from feeling awkward what's my brain doing to protect itself and then maybe just like just remove the stabilisers for a bit so maybe do one thing without drinking or and see how it goes and then you'll feel really proud of it like the idea that like it's a bit of an addictive buzz

being like I've gone to this thing I get so in my head about birthdays is I like my birthday and everything and I do celebrate it but I get so stressed about mixing friendship groups. Yes. I can't stand it. It's actually makes you feel really sick. I don't know why because I've had friends

that I've met through me and then they end up being better friends than they are with me. And like a lot of like other people aren't as stressed about it as me. Yeah. But I get so in my head about birthday events. The thought of renting a warehouse and putting on a rave

is my hell. I just can't, I actually can't imagine it because it's so. It would just be one person there. Well, it's funny because it was me. I was thinking about it this morning and I was trying to think of either of you. I was like, I've never seen Tesla have a birthday event. It was Tesla's party of the year. No.

No, but I've never had a party. Oh, I have had one. Yeah, well done. I've never. Well, I've had it in my house where all my things are and then I know I can be, an absolute state and just go to bed immediately. That is cute. That's nice. I had one

from my 30th and I felt so embarrassed about doing it that I was like I'll just invite one, I only invited one faction of my friendship group which was my university friend. So then loads of my other friends saw it and were like, thanks for I inviting me to your big 30th birthday and thought they weren't my friend. So that

was the last time I had it. You fucked it. I'm never again. I remember there was a very cool big rave thing and I got invited to it, I got so anxious about going that I cried. My partner had to push me out the door. I was like, I want to go, but like, I'm going on my own. And like, what if this, I get that? In my head, I would just get there and I wouldn't know anybody.

And then I'd have to leave. This is what I'm like as well. And like, I'm still getting my head about it now. Like Lou Sanders and Annie McGrath had a joint birthday, Cayley. I love Kayle's. I'm against my. No offense. Because I know you've got my user again.

But I was going to get a several partnership just so that I can have a Cayley at it because I just love them. And I was desperate to go to this and then I just got to her in my head and I couldn't go. And Lou and Annie are so nice and I know that they genuinely wanted me to go

and everything. When you say you got in your head, what is the main feeling that comes up? Just like I'm going to get there and not be able to talk to anyone and then or wear the wrong thing or I don't know, I don't know why. I relate to you.

Yeah. Because you actually, logically, you know that that won't happen. Like, you know, the next day, whenever I've done that, I've been like, that would have been fine. Like, now I'm in a different headspace. That would have actually been fine. But it's that moment of, like, I can't make myself leave. Like, I can't get out the door. Like, I can't.

I can't. And, like, it's been a while since I've felt like that. But, like, it's so strong. And it just feels like it's that moment that you. you go, okay, I'm feeling this feeling. So because I'm so, I don't want to go, I'm going to make myself go. It's because you need to prove to your brain there's nothing to be frightened of. Because your brain's gone.

There's a tiger and it's following me. And so then you have to hide. Like your brain can't differentiate between a social, as you've said to me loads of times, like a social situation or like genuine danger. Your brain just goes, danger, danger, danger, danger. So that you've got to go, brain, it's a party. It's fine. And like, you've got to fight it a little bit.

And generally for a friend's birthday party or a friend's birthday thing, I'll almost never regret going, but then a works party, I'll mostly regret going. That's been my experience. Like, you know how there's like party at the fringe every year? Yeah. going to go to this. I'm finally going to become

cool for them and then everyone's going to I don't know why I think this it's every single time and then you're like oh no this is terrible all the other comedians are anxious everyone's just talking about what a bad time they're having. Yeah yeah that's the other

thing. What's we doing here? I actually thought while we were talking that's probably why some of the best nights out you ever have is where you plan to just spontaneously go for one drink. So you've just been working for a day and then you go, oh, should we just go to the pub? Then you end up getting hammered. Those are the best because you've not built it up in your when lunch becomes dinner becomes a night out. Like that's great. It's amazing. Because then you're like, oh look, we're just doing it and you haven't put any pressure on it. I feel exactly that of like,

finally I'm going to look so cool at the party. And then always I'm wearing something insane. And I'm so cross with myself, I've built up so much. But both of you are really, I would say quite objectively, both of you are very, very cool at social functions. I'm not cool. No one thinks they're cool, but you, as in, all cool is is obviously an appearance of cool. Like, you can't actually be cool at your core because you were all like... Or to seem disinterested.

Yeah, which is also quite shitty, really, really. But like, both of you are a good cool, because you always look like you've just come from something else, always, but you have. Or you've got wet hair. And it's like, oh, you don't, it's like, this. You didn't even care about this. You've just, like, popped out from the shower. And you've just, like, pop.

Which is genuinely very cool. Do you turn up at all parties just with dripping. Genuine, yes. Because I want to be clean, but I've missed... Have me? Yes. Yeah, of course. With whatever else's showers.

Well, we all do. But we've done our hair. Yeah, but I just misjudged how long things take. So I've got wet hair. But the signals that gives out are just like, hey, we're all just having a fun time with this party. It's not a big deal, guys. I've just popped from the shower.

Whereas, you know, this thing. there's something not cool. I mean, obviously, people can be cool and be very well-organized and well-groomed, but also, like, it's very easy to appear like you've tried too hard. And cool is also a one-at-one-flex of cool is not trying too hard. And also, Fern, when you're at parties or whenever I've seen you at things, you turn up and just, like, chat like a cool person, and you always... That's not true.

The last social thing I saw you at was outdoor barbecue thing or picnic. And I was really stressed because everyone kept asking me to play around. I founders. Oh my God. Yes. I know. What happened? There was a full game of Rambats.

I found it very traumatizing at school. Rounders was one of the things where I felt the most autistic because I couldn't take in the rules. So everyone would always be like shouting at me and caught like saying I was an idiot and stuff. Were they shouting fourth base, fourth base on top? I don't understand it. And at this thing, everyone kept initially trying to gently encourage me to play rounders. and then when the 10th person was like,

come and play rounders with us. I was like, I can't, I have to leave now. You say that, but from my perspective, so I was stood with like, well, I was smoking a cigarette in a letter chat. Yeah, you arrived at a rounder's for me. One of the tea birds of the corner. I mean, yeah, because I was stood being like,

well, I'm so aware that like all the cool people are there playing rounders and I'm stood, to be fair, with very nice people having a chat. And you swung by and went like, hey, how's it going? Oh, hi, yeah, yeah. And then you were like, we talked about for a second, I think something to do it on Twitter or something. And you were like, oh, yeah, it's great.

And then you just like wandered off. And I was like, she's very cool. Like, no one knows. One's masking their awkwardness. Everyone is trying to find something to stop yourself. I used to work for ES magazine, the free magazine. Oh, yeah, yeah. And I was in charge of, I've never publicly said this, but I was in charge of the flashbulb pages.

I didn't know that. Yeah, I know. I've loved to be on that. That's the thing. You'd think you would. It was hellish. Because you had to go to the parties. You have to write it up and say it was all fun

and all the things that you went to. But really you go, you had to, like, go to, like, the red carpet of premieres and then, like, ask your question. And I used to just completely go to pieces. Every time, once I had to do Tom Cruise at the film for Oblivion. And he got to me, and I literally was like, I stumbled so much.

He had to put his hand on my shoulder and be like, do you have a question? I had to be like, and then I said, I really liked your film about, basically that and he was like okay well good to talk and then like i missed my i missed my question so then i and i would suppose to go and talk to these famous people at these parties and i got so scared of doing it that i would go home and just make up the quotes which is completely not allowed and i hope it's been a long enough time has passed that people won't be cross with me

you know people would always be like i can't believe graham norton said that and i was like me neither He did it. He just, you know, I'd go up and I'd always just, I'd get, I'd be like, come on, come on, come on, come on, here we go, here we go. And then I'd get there, my knees would just crumble. You know, and by, come on, come on, I'd be like 10 feet away from whoever I was supposed to go up to talk to. And on the journey, I would just like gently crumble to dust. And then I'd get that, I'd be like, hope you have a good party.

And then, like, leave again. Oh, God, it was awful. And I think forcing myself to, like, go to these, eventually I had to just say, sorry, I can't do it anymore. I'm so bad at it. And we're making up libelous quotes here. Like, please stop sending me. repeatedly going through it

I was like this is this is a waste of energy this amount of how hot I am how when I'm just talking into my shoulder like this is all so stupid and eventually I had just like sort of I think that's silly expression about like frequency is freedom

but like the more eventually after I'd done like so many of these like a bit of the pressure came off and a bit of the like this is all that's happening to my body this is pointless use of energy like this is going in completely the wrong direction If you can do that, you can do anything. That's the thing. If you can go and say to Tom Cruise,

oh, space, and you can be at a party and chat to someone. I think that's the same thing. Once I'd been like, right, well, and I think also watching him walk away and being like,

well, I'll have to make up yet another quote. I did that job, but I didn't make up quotes. So I just got fired, like immediately. You didn't make them up? No. Right, great. Of course not.

No. That seems to me. They were like, you're absolutely great at this. I was like, no, I'm not. I'm not.

Did you not get enough quotes from them? No, so I did it twice. And the last time I ever did it was I was told to try and break into the VIP section of a film with George Clingley was in because he was in the video. And I was like, well, I can't get in. And the editor was like, get in. So I was like, you need quotes. So then I looked up and Rick Edwards was there, who's really nice.

And I had a really big drink and then went to Rick Edwards and just said, I'm really sorry, I've got to do this job. And I need a quote or they won't let me go home. And he went, that's great. I'm hosting the Paralympics. He was like, no one knows I'm going to do it. I haven't announced it yet. Do you want that quote? And I was like, yes. And he was like, I totally get it. My ex-girlfriend used to do that. Horrible job. Have a great night. I was like, thank you. And then I went to the toys and cried. It was really nice.

And then I quit on a big high. But that was quite a low moment just being like, I need some news. And also the thing is that the ultimate, the sort of dark night of the soul for you and the ultimate, like you just went and said your truth, which was, I need a quote. rather than having to like sort of manipulate anybody into anything or like treat them into being cool. So I think there is something very freeing about just going up and being like, I don't know anyone at this party. Like, or I feel very awkward or just like saying your,

please may have a quote, Rick Edwards. And also another thing that helped me so much was this, this is an indirect result of this is I started doing improv, not because I wanted to be, because I just thought it was sounded fun, not because I thought like, oh, this will help with social anxiety. But realizing that in a group of like 15 people or whatever, all of whom to me looked,

really confident and calm and cool as we're like stood in the circle like doing whatever our first group game was and then the pub afterwards sort of five sessions in people being like I've been dripping in sweat from the moment we've arrived like and just revealing like like how scared everybody else in the room was when I thought I'm the only person who's scared and um something I used to say to my sister who gets herself like very scared in social situations is we used to say she she'd be like I can't go to this thing I'll be so soggy by which she means like I'll be so sweaty and soggy that I no one want to shake my hat because I'm too soggy. And we say, everyone is soggy.

That's what we chanced. Everybody's soggy. Everybody's soggy. And then she's always like, not him. And I'm like, I swear to God, if we went and saw a heat map of that guy's head. And if you actually look in, everybody's just being like, I'm soggy, I'm soggy. And so just realizing that everyone's pretending, everyone thinks everybody else is cool. And then being like, okay, we're all soggy.

And being honestly open about it. And saying, hello, I'm soggy. My most shameful thing I've ever, ever done. Oh, wow. Really bearing the lead there. Right. Sorry. By the end of the podcast.

So I really thought about it and I come to, while listening to you, I've come to a conclusion about why it is. Is that my most awkward thing I've ever done is at a party, first year of university, everyone had gone back to their hometown and everyone was in that sort of like acting out phase of like here, we used to be school friends, but now everyone's doing their own thing. And like, you know, people are finding themselves as adults and who are we now? Everyone sort of gone to university and reinvented themselves. We went to the birthday party of one girl. and all her university friends had come to this party, and our school friends were really sort of being very, really showing off in the corner and being really hard work.

And I was like, no, we're going to mingle. And I went, be like, no, I'm going to mingle now. And I got talking to this boy who wasn't giving me very much. I started telling a funny story that the girl whose party it was had told me about a sex story, about her having sex with a boy at university. And I really gave it my all in this story. and then my friend looked over at me

and gave me like the worst look I've ever seen a person look at me and she looked so horrified and I realized immediately that I was telling a boy a sex story that was about him. Oh no! And I was like, no, no, no, no. And after many years of, and I just fled the room. I fled and I had to leave the party.

But after a long time I think about it, I was like, it was from a place of fear of being like, I've got nothing to say, I'm not interesting, No one wants to talk to me. I'll just tell like, and here's an outrageous story, and I'll tell it. And then it made me be like, you've got to stop doing that and being so afraid because you just tell any normal story. Like, ask him questions.

You don't have to be doing a story all the time. Like, just say, how was your day? And like, asking what he's into. Like, it doesn't have to be this, like, if you're not telling, if you're not, if people aren't coming away being like, oh, that was a great tale, then the party's a disaster or whatever. You don't have to, yeah. And so it was like, chill out, chill out, basically.

That's a huge. Yeah, he survived it. That's a huge piece of advice. And I think that's like one of the, we've maybe done like a couple of like big ones. This is the final big one, which is that like, yeah, if you feel awkward, like it's,

make it about the other person, not your awkwardness, as in make your conversation, like ask questions. Like you don't have to be, then people are looking at you to like prop up the entire party and the entire social engagement. Like shift the attention.

Yeah. Like maybe with the baby and the penis, you know. You certainly shifted that. You said, yeah, but he was just sort of expressing himself and you were like, like me being like, my job here is to, I must say a fact, you know, I'll tell her helpful. This will be helpful, which I think the instinct is completely right. But maybe possibly what that guy wanted in the moment was just like to be asked a question about it or just to say like, that sounds very tough or, you know, and like, oh, how are you feeling or like, is that impacting you? about contacting you. Actually, because I've been going out with someone a long time, he's always said to me that I seem to feel the need

to try and solve the person's problem immediately by giving them a fact. And he was like, sometimes people just want like a platitude or for you to say that sounds bad rather than a fact. Actually, I did it again though recently. Sometimes you forget, especially with people you're relaxed around. My friend Susan's dog was ill. and I asked what kind of dog it was

and he was a Labrador and I said big dogs die younger it is a fact it's an unfortunate fact but that isn't going to help her really the dog's fine

thank God a friend once said to me that I get in real trouble for just telling people the truth all the time when it's like they don't really want to hear the truth

and I'm quite direct with it and they said you are like a a mirror in a high street shop with like strip lighting and the mirror is just like aggressively says exactly what's there and what sometimes what people want and she described one of our other friends who definitely does this is a and she said our friend X is more of a bridal mirror they're at a gentle angle yeah there's a sepia tone you look thinner in it you look lovely and so people get

a bit upset with you sometimes because what you present is just like the hard truth so like labrador big dogs die young there you go where this is amazing but what people mean So sometimes my friend says to me, maybe a bit more bridal mirror. She says, you know, to be like, you could be a bit more bridal mirror today. That's an amazing description. It really, really helped me. And so maybe it will help you. And maybe it will help.

It's definitely something I've been practicing more and more. Because once I learn the rule and put a system in place, I'm quite good at following it. Yeah. I just need to learn them all. I know. She says that she sees, my friend who was describing saying that I should try this more, says that what she sees is me just going, oh, hmm. and like pretending to be the bridal mirror,

but like clearly having a truth that I want to share. She's like, that's not achieved anything. My boyfriend said the exact same thing about me. Yeah, he'll be like, I can see how hard you were trying there. But that's not the same as doing it well. Oh, God. Right, thank you so much for coming on. We've taken up so much of your time,

but I feel like we could hang out all day. It's lovely to talk to you. By By Byrne's book. It's truly wonderful. It's really wonderful. Fantastic. It's got a fantastic cover. It's really nice. Oh, I mean, I can't take the credit for that. But, yeah, other than I said red was my favourite colour.

You can take a colour. Yeah. There's all you. It's lovely colour. Strong female character. It's out now. It's also on audio. If you love the sound of a lovely voice. Number one on Audible. Number one. Taking over Prince Harry.

Yeah. Thank God about time. In your face. Henry Windsor. Wow. Let's end on that. Goodbye.