Nobody Panic - How to Cope with Grief with Cariad Lloyd

Episode Date: February 21, 2023

Stevie and Tessa talk to Cariad Lloyd, Griefcast host and author of You Are Not Alone, about how to talk to a grieving friend. Do you send them lasagne? How often should you check in on them? What do you SAY? Covering the entire emotional gamut, Cariad gives excellent advice and is very balanced, Tessa cries throughout the entirety of the recording and Stevie remains a numbed husk.Find Cariad on Twitter: @ladycariad and Instagram: @cariadlloydBuy Cariad's book You Are Not Alone here.Subscribe to the Nobody Panic Patreon at patreon.com/nobodypanicWant to support Nobody Panic? You can make a one-off donation at https://supporter.acast.com/nobodypanicRecorded and edited by Naomi Parnell for Plosive.Photos by Marco Vittur, jingle by David Dobson.Support this show http://supporter.acast.com/nobodypanic.Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.Support this show http://supporter.acast.com/nobodypanic. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hello, I'm Carriad. I'm Sarah. And we are the Weirdo's Book Club podcast. We are doing a very special live show as part of the London Podcast Festival. The date is Thursday, 11th of September. The time is 7pm and our special guest is the brilliant Alan Davies. Tickets from kingsplace.com. Single ladies, it's coming to London.

True on Saturday, the 13th of September. At the London Podcast Festival. The rumours are true. Saturday the 13th of September. At King's Place. Oh, that sounds like a date to me, Harriet. Welcome to Nobody Panic with me, Stevie and Tessa over here. He's doing really well.

Hello, everybody. Hello. Yeah, I'll explain. No, you introduce our lovely guest and then I'll say where I'm at. Okay, so we've wanted to do this for a long time. We're really excited, but also respectful, but also it's going to be a good, it's going to be a good episode. You will have heard of or read about or come into contact with the podcast Griefcast. I'm honest, I think most people will have just come into contact with you in general.

Her name is Carriad Lloyd. I wonder the streets constantly touching. She's a street wanderer. She's a comedian. You've been on pretty much every panel show. Salt of the Earth, of course. Improvisor, if you're O'Fey with the award-winning and groundbreaking work of ostentatious. If you like Imprope, there's seven people listening.

The seven people in the country. That's not true. They're queuing around the block for you. They are. They love you. And of course, the upcoming book, which has sort of come from, Griefcast has been a big sort of platform for it. But the book, You Are Not Alone, which is all about grief and your experiences with it and what you can kind of like help, how you could help, like, other people, how you can talk about it. Before I come to you, though, Carrie, Ed, Tess is already crying.

Tess is already crying. I didn't make her cry. No, Caria did not make me cry. I'm so sorry, everyone. I, moments before the podcast began, I apologise to Carriad, that she asked me to go on the podcast, griefcast, which I was so honoured to be asked. And I became so overwhelmed that if I did, I felt like I didn't deserve to go on it. And I didn't have, I know, people talk about such personal relationships and such important things. And I felt so lucky, I guess, that I haven't had to go through it, that I felt that it would be some kind of jinx if I didn't.

then I started crying. And then I said to you, that's very common. And then I felt so overwhelmed that other people had felt that as well. Yeah. And then you said, the fates aren't listening. And then I started crying again. It's very common. When we talk about grief or death, people, if they haven't been through what I described as capital G grief.

Capital G, like grief, then it's quite scary. And it feels like a big club that you're sort of like, oh, I don't, I don't know about it. And I don't want to ever know about it. So it's very common to find it difficult to talk about, which is also when it comes to talking about death and grief, sometimes we don't know what to say or we don't want to have that conversation because we do think, oh, if someone starts talking to me about their mum having cancer, I don't want my mum to get cancer. So we start like acting like talking about it is contagious. Yes, well, because it's really common. It feels like it's the one thing, I mean there are many things,

but it feels like the one thing that you can't control, obviously. And so then it makes sense that we would try to control it in kind of ways that aren't logical or are superstitious because, Yeah, and it's the one thing that also you can't control, and it's definitely going to happen. And I liken it a lot to like, you know, like not everyone goes to university or not everyone like gets a mortgage or like has internet banking. Like there's certain things. Death is very similar to internet banking. You have to like make a choice and be like, oh, I'm going to do that and I'm going to have to figure that out. But you could go through life being like, you know what?

I'm fine. I don't have to do that. But like death is going to happen. Sorry, death. Deep best. Death is going to happen. And so because it's so guaranteed, it's almost like you can walk away from it because it's like, well, it will happen. And so therefore, I don't need to think about it.

I'm just going to close the door and then it will never find me. And it becomes, like you said, this uncontrollable thing. And I think it's also really important to acknowledge, like, we are kind of, without saying like an asshole. Like, we're tribal people and we're used to like, we're built to survive, like, you know, in wasteland, jungle, serengeti life. That's the technical term. If we were in our tribe millions of years ago and somebody died,

it would mean they had a disease or an illness that wasn't safe. So that would mean we'd probably need to be away from them. So there is like a rational feeling of like, oh, don't be near sickness, don't be near illness. Like it takes a special kind of person to nurse someone, to stay near someone who's sick. Because everything in your body is like, get away, one away! And that's what happens when you talk about death.

Someone starts telling you, oh, my so-and-so died of this. Part of you is like, ah, alarms, one away. I don't want to die. I don't want this thing they're telling me about. Like, that's completely normal. And I think all that happens is the more you talk about it, you realize, oh, it's just a panic. It's a panic conversation in your head

And then actually you're fine And it doesn't matter how much you talk about it They're still going to die People are still going to die It doesn't matter You can't jinx your way through it Or you know do any of these things But I had similar when I was younger

And I would just think like Don't don't talk about it too much Because like yeah the fate's will hear And then they'll take someone else Because they've probably taken someone And you're just like looking for ways To make it logical Because there's no logic that we exist here

For a brief amount of time And we can't decide how long it is and then we don't like that's mad i think a weight i've been carrying a really long time just like left my body good i'm really glad don't carry that weight there's enough to carry in it's mad isn't it and i know like a friend a really good friend at university at university lost her mom and i did i and i carry this like huge guilt that i wasn't good enough at the time to support her and i think there was this huge like yeah this fear that was going to it was contagious but also this like huge like guilt that i had i had a mom and she did

it and like so much stuff I just was completely unable to like it's so common and that's the that's the thing like with grieving like especially when talking to people or like this is what I the main thrust of the book is like you're going to get it wrong yeah if we start from there then we can all relax and like take that pressure off ourselves because what happens in this country particularly and just generally is like we all try so hard to get it right that we freeze we can't like disable ourselves of like well I just can't say anything because I have a mum and I And there's nothing.

And then that person is left going, oh, I'm still sad and no one's saying anything. Why is no one saying? Whereas if you start literally from the premise of, I'm going to get this wrong and begin there, because you can't get, the reason is you can't get it right. One, there's no right thing to say.

There isn't a universal sentence that works for everybody. Grief is completely unique. One day you could say something to me, I'll be fine. The next day it'll make me burst into tears. So there's genuinely like no perfect sentence. And you can also, these other thing I write in the book so much, it's like, you can get it wrong and say that.

So if someone says to you, oh, how are you? Oh, my mom just, my mum just died a couple of weeks ago. Obviously, alarm bells, alarm bells. Oh, my God. What do I say? What do I say? And you can totally fine to say someone, oh, my God, I'm so sorry. I have no idea what to say to you.

But I just want you to know, I'm very sad. And I wish I knew something better to say than that. Like, say the things are in your head. The things are in your head, like, oh, I don't know what to say. And I feel so bad because I've got a mum. And that makes me feel terrible. and I want to just tell you that I just feel for you and I just want to help you

is so much better than not saying anything and this is the other thing, it's a long game. So you don't have, everyone thinks you've got to be there at the beginning and say the right sentence. And then in six months' time I'd be like, oh, it's all over, and then we'll just move on. I did text you saying thinking of you, my God, what more do you want? So like, it's a long game.

Like, so the whole book is about like grief is with you forever. It's lifelong, it doesn't go away. That doesn't mean you're like in pieces every day, but you carry it with you. One of the things that I've struggled with is, is do you're like, so how is it, your dad's still dead? Like, you know, like, are you still sad about your dad? Like, I don't want to bring that, but you kind of go, like, how's it all going?

That's such a great question. Are you still sad about your dad? That's, honestly, I'd love that question. I'd be like, yeah, what am I? It stays with you. And that's the thing that I say in the book so much of like, the argument from the book is grief is lifelong process. It never goes away, but you learn to live with it.

Now, that doesn't mean, like I said, I'm not in pieces. I don't have like a framed photo of him with candles around that I weep to every morning. But it means like every now and again I get hit by this, oh, man, shit that he died. It's really sheer. That's so shit.

Oh, he would have liked that. And it's just a wave and just a feeling. In the same way that you might suddenly think, oh, it's a shame I'm not 21 anymore and I can't run as fast as that person is running. You know, it's just this feeling of like, oh. And if you just let it be and let it happen, and then it goes again.

And then it's just, that's the thing grief is always asking to do is just let it be and not go, I'm not going to feel that. I'm fine. It's 20 plus years since my dad died and everything's, like that's when you get into problems. The thing that we say in the book, we, I say in the book, is how are you today? Such a great question. How are you doing today? Especially with early grief, because it's so up and down and it's so raw. And it's the first year is like an absolute roller coaster of shitstorm.

So how are you today is a really great one because it just means they can be like, oh, today. you today was an okay day. Oh my God, today was awful. Like I was crying for the moment I wake up and I haven't stopped. Like it just narrowing it down, being specific, like how was it after the funeral? Like how did the funeral go? How are you feeling now the funeral's done? Has everyone, does it seem like people have forgotten or like, do you want to talk about it? Is the other great to say like, are you in the mood to talk about it? No, I really don't want you. I want you not to mention it. Great. Okay, cool. Yeah. And that's fine. Like let, you couldn't let them lead because everybody's so different. But yeah, I think it's just being brave and also,

So being fully prepared, you're going to fuck it up immediately. Especially if you haven't done big G grief, then you don't know. It's a room you don't understand. So that's like just come from it from that point of view. Like they can now speak fluent French and you can't. It's when people say nothing. That's when you just think, oh my God, it's like it didn't happen.

Or that person doesn't exist. Like that feels really cold because it feels like they don't care. But it's not that they don't care. It's because they're so afraid of, they care too much. They're not saying anything. But they're saying nothing, having nearly interviewed 200 people about it. the saying nothing is universally taken as you don't give a shit. Yeah, I can understand.

Even though that's not the case most time. So do it badly, but do it is way more important. A friend of mine who went through it last year, I really just like recluse into herself. And I having been like listening to your stuff and being like, okay, we're showing up with how are you today. And I was really trying. I would go around and I would leave, you know,

she was never in. And I would like leave things and I would text her a lot. And then I was like, at what point am I crossing into like stalker territory of not being wanted? And maybe our friendship not being quite strong enough for me to be like, I'm coming in now, you know, that she doesn't actually want me there. And I think it was a, and then some other people, I suppose spoke to other friends who are like, I think she's just. And I don't think, you have, sort of taking on board that like the things aren't going unacknowledged. Yeah. But like finding this line of like, at what point do you just have to back off and be like.

It's a really, and that's thing, it's so individual and it's a really fine line. And like, it's all very well me sitting here and being like, show up and do it. But like if someone doesn't want it, they don't want it. Like, you know. And Kenny. Kenny Ethan Jones. Thank you. Not Rogers.

It's all my brain gaming. I was like, stop. Kenny Rogers. Kenny Ethan Jones interviewed him. And he was saying that he put like a note on his door, which was like, if you're thinking about knocking, fuck off. Okay. After his mom died. And I was like, wow, that's so bold because it's so clear.

And he was like, yeah, I just didn't want to see anything. one. And I was like, that's amazing. Because most of us let people in and go, oh, okay, I don't really want you here. So if your friend is making that choice, I think you did the right thing. You keep showing up. You keep showing up. And if the door is permanently closed and you go, okay, leave them for a bit. But again, it's like long journey. So you could leave them for a bit six months later. Hey, just thinking of you. I know you've had such a shit year. Or even, you know, I don't know, I'm quite an overly blunt person. but you could say, hey, it really seems like you don't want me around. That's totally fine.

I just want you to know I am not going to be around because it seems like that's the case. But if you need me, I'm there. Oh, baby. Because I'm doing what I think you want me to do, but like don't feel like I've left you. Like we can, you know, we have so many ways to communicate these days. Like there's so many WhatsApp, messages, Instagram, like all this stuff. So it's perfectly fine to, yeah, wait a while and come back to them as well. Not be afraid nothing is permanent, you know.

The death is permanent. and that's what, when they're in the first year of grief, that's what's so hard is like they can't get that person back. But you and their relationship can change. And it might be that they've so changed the person, they move to a different space. Like that does happen a lot with grief. Like your world is turned upside down.

Everything implodes. And you are completely different. You have to sort of learn to walk again and learn, and it might be that you go back out into the world and those friends that you did have are just so far removed from where your head is at that you can't go out and have drinks anymore and be like joking around. about nothing because in your head you're like people die yeah like yes it's with me i was a real

fun teenager you can imagine because that's where i was at 15 and so that but that also again nothing's like it can change again like they might need two years of like completely sharp sharp not seeing one and then they might poke their head out and be like oh actually i'm i'm ready to have a cup of tea now but you just it's about waiting isn't it and if you love someone and you are their friend then you can wait and you will wait so it's just when they look like they're ready you're like hello i'm here I'm like oh you my fucking stalker great you fuck you no more lasagnas okay I'm fine

another big thing is anniversary so if you do have a friend that loses a parent or you know some very close member put in your ICAL a year from now like just put it in like so and so's dad anniversary and then also put in six months because that's the other thing that happens is weirdly the six months in a year are quite big deals

and if you can just like again you don't have to be like, today is the day your father time. Just a reminder in case you haven't. But you could easily be like, oh hey, I'm just, you know, just remember me it was like, sorry. Says his, he's been crying the whole time. This is also my nightmare. Is it like, what if when they, I say like, how are you today?

And do you want to talk about it? And then I just start crying. What's really common is that when it's a grief removed, like a bit removed, you cry more. Like so many people say that. Like, didn't cry at my father's funeral. went to a friend of a friend's, like, mother that had known me as a child, ball my eyes up. Like, that is so common.

And I do say in the book, like, the key thing is, like, you've got to remember, you're not the lead, you're the supporting actor. Like, that's the key. And also, I think it's, the other thing to think is you don't, it's not your job to be the friend for everything. Like, there'll be other friends who, like, don't cry. Who can sit there, who are in the club already. He were like, yeah, fucking I'm going to sit and get drunk with you and talk about how shit it is.

As much as I love my grief friends who, like, when Father's Day comes around, like we can just like roll our eyes at each other or like oh my god did you see so many alive dad's on instagram today like fucking out it's their live dad day oh they're all alive well done you like but i can say that to my friend hannah because her dad died when she was a kid and we we we get real joy out of that but then it's really nice to know other people aren't in that because that would be horrible of the world was everybody felt like that it's very hard if you haven't been through like big g grief to really get it it is really hard and it's a bit like I've been in a long-time relationship for a very long time

so when I had single friends when I was younger who like oh you know broke up with someone again I was not the girl to be like hey I met someone really brilliant when I was really young and we love each other do you want to talk to me about it no they did not want to talk to me they were like fuck you and your settled relationship and I remember feeling like oh I'm not allowed in this chat am I

but it was like yeah I'm not because I don't get it and my single friends are like yeah they're bastards let's talk about them I was like oh I see that's that's their room and I can be in the room but I can't always like chip in I can be gently crying my life's so wonderful

my boyfriend's so caring I have a boyfriend yeah yeah so yeah you just it's the thing of like just showing up is enough like it's enough to show up get it wrong try

and remember and also remember like if you're not in the big G gang then it's a new I have never used that phrase right the big G gang

then you can also be part of the like distraction club of like the person who takes them out and doesn't talk about it and like gives them a break from it and like goes to watch a film that's really stupid or goes to watch comedy and doesn't bring it up and it's like hey you know what we're not going to talk about it tonight you're just going to have a nice time and we're just going to enjoy it and give you a night off from that

because when you are grieving you're spending a lot of time thinking about it and it is I mean that for me is what improv did like it just like opened up the space where I didn't have to think about it and I could just like laugh my head off at a gig at work and be like oh my God I was so nice. We just laughed and then we went home. Like,

nobody bored up death until I did a podcast about it and made it a daily thing. Is it, if somebody who has gone through the big G grief gang initiation process, my partners, both his parents have died and his thing, you know, he's sort of spoken a lot about it, but he was sort of saying about how the odd thing is that it's just,

you know, people, you didn't want to speak to anyone about it because they go like, oh, I'm so sorry. And you're like, that's not really enough considering what's happened if we're all on it. But also I don't want you to be upset.

So, like, this is horrible push and pull. Oh, that's it. There's no right. There's no right. And I definitely don't mind. I'd take someone crying over someone being cold, definitely. Like, I've had people go, oh, right. Wow, that's so bold.

Somebody once said to me, you're not the only one whose dad died. No, they didn't. We had their dad died. Yeah. And I said, how old are you? And it was in my 30s? And I went, I was fucking 15. Because I was like, and then I was like, what is happening here?

We're having a competition. Yeah. People say unbelievably stupid things. So, like, please, if you're, worrying about what to say. What horrible thing to say? I guess he had a lot of unprocessed. He definitely didn't.

It really came out of nowhere and it really made me, it was like this sort of like party. And I was like, oh, this is weird. I was like, oh, okay, I sort of have to go. Because like that, I don't think I'd come back from that. But like, definitely when people have been empathetic. Like that's what you're feeling when someone's, like you said, like you're not, what you don't want to do. Which I think is your fear and I don't think you are doing is do the like,

oh, if it happened to me. Oh my God. I love my parents so much. Like that's when it's like, oh, this is. because now I'm comforting you. But if you're just sobbing because you're so sad for that person, that just feels like love and empathy. I'm not crying for me.

I'm really not. Just right for this is all the whole thing. And that's nice. Tess is still crying. Just as anyone else. That feels nice to a person. It does. It's good emotional stuff.

It's raw. Who gives a crap. Tissues. Yeah. Genuinely. Really getting through them. She's wagging her ass with them now. It's not having got anything to do with the crying.

Oh God. I think like again we just worry so much about doing the wrong thing. And also like if you do cry, you can always text on the other day and go, I'm so sorry. I know I was so weepy. Like I've had people say it to me. I've just been telling them my story and they've started weeping. And I've been, because it's happened so, you know, so many years ago, I've been like, oh, oh, oh yeah, I guess it is sad, isn't it? Oh, sorry.

I'm used to it. So I think it's, you know, it's okay. It's okay. I find the coldness difficult. that's when people seem like when they're talking about or I had someone say like well what happened and you're like

oh why are you seeing it like that like go gently like like oh I'm sorry to hear that start there start with something so I don't mind a bit of weeping at all and you know the other thing I guess is to say I'm sorry for your loss is the phrase which some people hate loathe with a passion

I actually don't mind because I think it's really helpful and I did a grief cast live in Sweden And I thought they'd brought me over because they were like, oh, we love talking about death. And they were like, no, we're really bad at it. We don't have a phrase. We don't even have, I'm sorry for your loss. Oh, wow. We have nothing to say.

So when someone dies, all they have is a very old fashioned phrase, which literally is the equivalent of me saying, my dear Asira, my sorrow passes upon your soul this day. Like, it's so old fashioned that nobody says it. So they said to me, they're like, well, because we don't, we only have one phrase and it's really weird, it's like old Swedish. so we just don't say anything. So when someone don't, they're like, yeah, you just avoid it, try and not bring it up.

Oh my God. So from that point, I was like, you know what? I'm sorry for your loss. Come in, welcome, thank you. Like, at least we have that. But I know some people hate it. So again, this is the trouble with grieving people. Like, we're all so different.

There's not, you're never going to get everyone agreeing on what they want. Like, when someone dies, you're having to figure out the world without them. And everything is new because it's like, I have to get up in the mornings without them. I have to go to work without them. I have to like know the Elizabeth line exists without being able to tell them. Like, these stupid things. So you're having to figure out a whole new way of thinking all the time.

So how you want your other people to deal with it will also change as you accommodate your grief in your life. You'll also be like, oh, well, last week I didn't want to speak to anyone, but actually this week, I just really want no one to bring it up, but I want to watch horror films for a week. Like grief is like a ball of emotion. It's, that's the thing. It's not the five stages. That's bullshit. It's everything. It's anger.

It's sadness. It's joy, it's regret, it's enwitted. It's all of these things, exactly the same time rushing towards you. And sometimes that reaction is to feel overwhelmed and to cry because you're like, this is just sad. And sometimes reactions, that's so terrifying. I will feel none of those things. Put them over there, thank you very much.

And I did that a lot. Like my teenagers was like, no, I'm fine. How am I today? I'm fucking fine, leave me alone. Oh yeah, you seem fine. You really seem fine. And that's, grief just wants those emotions to be heard. And sometimes, like I said, there's no, sometimes people,

people like ball their eyes out for a year afterwards. And sometimes they don't bore their eyes out. And then five years later, a cat dies and they can't get up. That's mine, yeah. Like, I think that will be mine. And also, as well, like, when I'm speaking to people who have grieved as well, like, when I went to the funerals,

I was so overwhelmed by my friend's grief that they, I was watching them just struggle. Like, one of them gave this most incredible speech about it. It was like a double funeral. It was his dad and his dad's dad's dad. And like, it was just, it was honestly the worst that I've really experienced. But, like, I couldn't cry. And then we're so like, oh, my God, my friend might think that I don't care.

You've literally traveled to the funeral. Like, again, you're not the main character. Yeah. Isn't it helpful to be like, you know, like I got drinks in? Other people cried. Like, your, Tessa will have cried. I'll be doing it for the birthday. But, like, everybody's bringing different things to the table.

And you'll get it wrong. You'll get it wrong. Somebody's died. Like, that is the shit thing that's happened. Yes. Anything you do, it might be annoying. or hurtful or sad, but it's not really as bad as a person dying.

Like that is the worst thing. And sometimes I think we tie ourselves to not to be like, well, what if I do this, whatever I do this? It's like, but the person died. They're already dead. Really. And often what happens is you might get a friend lashing out at you and being like, oh, well, you didn't do this, you did.

They're not angry at you. They're angry someone died. Like I have seen so many people grieve publicly on social media about something else and had people contact me and be like, oh, Sarin's a little fucking weird mood. like they're grieving. The reason they're screaming about something else is they're angry, the person died. They're sad, the person died. But it's so common to be like, they're suddenly having a fight or they're picking fights with friends or they got really drunk. It's because

that emotion, that ball of grief is too much. So they've decided to take it somewhere else. And that, again, like, if you're doing that and you're in the middle of grieving, it's okay. Like for years, because I avoided it for so long. I was like, oh, I did it very badly. I did very wrong. I shouldn't have done that. And I'm like, I did the best I could at the time. I was fucking 15. I did the best I could and I probably should have asked for help way earlier but I didn't and when I did at least I eventually

did so it's kind of be I don't know it's like it's life it's life's really hard like this show proves it's tough it's tough to know what the right thing to do is like you just do the best you can and admit when you've got it wrong I think that's the key like don't don't act like oh they're being ridiculous it was their fault

it's like they're in grief they don't know what the fuck they're doing so like probably just try and give them a lot of what's the word like leeway if they're being a bit of a dick or they're causing rouse for no problem or they don't want they're not replying to any texts be like well they're they're grieving because I've had a lot of other messages from people being like oh I'm grieving and so I said to my best friend I didn't want to go to their wedding and now they're furious with me but like I'm trying to be like well my mum died six months ago and they've they've taken that as you hate me so it's again it's just being like everything for the first couple of years a bit

difficult you know like everything like if you have a wedding or you have a job thing or like they are always going to see it with the lens of grief of like well I don't get to tell my dad that or I don't so so just be gentle with people who are in the midst of it because it you know it's hard for us to be like woohoo for your great now alive parents like we can't woo them but we're still we're happy that you've got them but we just can't woohoo on um on certain days yeah 100% i um i met this paramedic once at a party who was saying telling a funny story about when you get to a scene sometimes people who are already there have tried to help or do something or you know not like death defifying accidents but just like whatever someone's unconscious and sometimes they put them in like an insane position or they've done something just just fucking wild and you get there and then the put they're so relieved that someone else is here now and they always say like I'm sorry I'm sorry I did this or I did that and he said you're

trained to say you did what you thought was best and then you just move on and you deal with this person now but the phrase like that you did they don't say you did fantastic because you categorically don't lie you fuck that you fuck that you're just that you're just That's absolutely dreadful. Their legs weren't broken. They are now. You did what you thought was best. You did what you thought was best.

And that's the truth. You did do what you thought was best. And that's all you could have done in that situation. And people would be like, okay. And he says, everybody goes, oh, okay. I did what, you know. I put something on Instagram about the book and somebody posted on underneath, it made me laugh so much that she,

a friend had a bereavement and she was so panicked about helping. And she thought, oh, you're supposed to send food. You're supposed to send food. So she just panicked. And she just sent them some pasta. Dry. Dry. With a condolence card.

And she was like, sort of like embarrassing. I was like, so good. You did what you thought was best. And I said, she doesn't mind me sharing. Like,

she put it on Instagram. But I said to her, I'm crying, laughing. Like, you have made my day because you see the thought. You know that they, we've all been that person

has gone, yes, yes, food. I'm being so helpful, putting it in the jiffy bag, posting it off. Yes,

I've done a good thing. And then get you. home being like, pasta, fucking dried pasta. Anyone can get dried pasta. There's no... But that's the thing, we sometimes do things that have the right heart in them, the right start from the right place,

but they're not quite the right thing. But that's okay. And like when you do lose someone, like, massive in your life, it's for life. This feeling of grief is for life. So you won't know what you need. That's the other thing. Like if someone like you said,

your friend is closing the door, that at the moment, that's probably all she can do is close the door. But she doesn't know what she needs. And that's the thing. don't say to people, let me know if I can do anything. Don't say that. I would say that is a good, please rule.

Because you're putting it on them to tell you, and they are thinking, I don't know, I don't know what I need. So if you say, let me know if I can do anything, it makes you feel like, I've said it, I'm there, but it makes them go, well, I can't ask them to help me with the probate, and I can't ask them to clear my dead mother's wardrobe, and I can't ask them to, like, you know, I don't want to ask them to come out with me

because I'm a wreck at the moment, and I'm probably depressed. So you just, they probably go, oh, okay, thanks, I will. And then they don't say anything. Whereas if you say, you can be specific, would you like me to come around and sit with you while you do this? Or think about your skills. Like, are you super good at tidying up?

Are you super good at distracting? Or is your special skill finding a great film to see? So it's like, what can you do and be like, well, I'm going to come around. I'm going to just empty all your bins. And they might be like, okay. But when you've gone, they'll be like, oh, that's, no, that's good. I don't have to do that.

okay well yeah oh like again yeah don't send flowers because flowers die and they look disgusting and they smell of rotting death and so if you're surrounded by that I always say quite nice send like nice tea bags or nice biscuits because they're going to have loads of people

coming around doesn't have definitely nice herbal tea or make some biscuits or just go around if like if they have kids can you watch their kids for an hour where they do some admin or are you someone who's like I will be on hold for 45 minutes so I will ring the bank for you. I will be on hold for 45 minutes while you do everything. And I'll be like, they're here, they're here. Like, you know, there's things you can do that are very practical if you really think about it. But also, you kind of have to be, you said, like a certain

friend that's in that circle. Yes. If you're not in that circle and you sort of met twice, they're like, I'll be on hold for the bank. Okay. So you have to read the room. You have to read the room. And I say that in the book as well about asking questions. Like if, especially with COVID, that was a big thing. I had a lot of people get in touch me saying if they'd lost someone to COVID people were being like, oh my God, did they,

but did they have it when they die? But were they tested? Because what they were saying is, oh, I'm so afraid of my fear of COVID. So I want to know exactly how did your person die? Did they really have it? But had they been tested? Are you sure it was like?

Because they were scared. And then they were a grieving person going, I'm not only grieving, I have to justify the COVID death to you because maybe you don't believe in COVID right now or maybe you think that the care homes will, you know, all this stuff. So it's like when you ask questions

about how someone died, really think to yourself, Do I need to know this or do I want to know? Like, you're like, oh, what happened? Ask the person, ask their friends. Like maybe rather than them if you're really, also if you're really that dad's like, how, then maybe ask yourself why you're that bothered.

And that's a big thing, sorry to make it very serious, but with suicide, don't ask the details. Oh my God. So do not ask how they did it, what exactly happened. Because that's, you know, when we're talking about traumatic grief, that's obviously you're taking them back to like the absolute point. into trauma. So if you know someone who's lost someone's suicide, you just be there for them.

It doesn't, you don't need to go into what happened, why it happened. And I think it's a very what I think is important to acknowledge, we all think it. Of course we'll think it. Oh my God, but what happened? Who did they speak to last? Were they okay? Were they in therapy? Like, of course we all have those questions because we want to help. Don't say them out loud. Or go to your other friend and be like, oh, I have no idea how they did it or what happened. I didn't know they were depressed. Like you're allowed to have that conversation. But with the person who's lost that, do not ask for details. It's a how can I help but it's also this like

some way very deep in you is also this like if I have all the information I can make sure it doesn't happen to other people and it's like it's control it's control and so it's being like give me everything even though that's the useless worthless what you've taken from them and it caused them so much harm to give it to you and that's like I said when I've felt more

like when I've had a bad experience to people ask me they'll be like oh what did he die of well how long and what treatment do you have and when you start into those questions you're like why does it feel like I have to justify why, or they love to say things like, do you smoke? Oh, right.

Oh, making, oh, God. We do smoke. And I, my favorite game to play, because my dad died at 44, which obviously when I was a kid, I thought it was very old. Now, embarrassingly, not old at all, still very relevant.

As a 40-old, not a 40-old. I don't even want you to think I'm 44. That's too old. I want to make clear. So when people ask me intrusive questions, I would say, this upsets people who are intrusive because I'd be like, oh, yeah, he was 44.

He was training for a marathon. He had run triathlon on all over the world. He was training for an iron man. He did smoke and drink as younger, but he was like incredibly fit and healthy. And the doctor said part of the reason the cancer spread so quickly was he was so fit and healthy. Because I love just their faces when they're like, no. So even if I'm healthy, I'm like, even if you're fucking healthy, death exists. So do not look for a narrative to make yourself feel better. Because that's what you're doing. You're going, I jog, so I'm okay, right? Because your dad died of care, but I jog.

No, you're not. You're still, it still could happen to you. It could happen to anyone. So stop trying to make it. Or I'm in this camp. because my dad did a thing that made it, oh, they weren't looking when they crossed the road. Okay, fine. I always look. Yeah, I would fine. It's like, oh, it was one of those, was it?

Oh, fine, fine, fine, fine. I can relax. They relax. They go, or they say things. And again, when it comes to pregnancy loss as well, like, that's a big thing. Well, how many weeks? What does it matter?

What does it matter? Oh, my gosh. Like, we call it on the show grief maths. So you want to be like, like, they'll be like, oh, well, my, you know, my grandma died and very upset. How old was she? 90. Oh, okay.

and if I say, well, how long ago was your dad, you know, your dad died? And I say, oh, it's like 20 plus years ago. Oh, right, okay. Because you can see they're thinking, oh, it's quite a long time again, probably alright. Yeah, yeah. Because you do the math in your head. Oh, you know, what was the pregnancy loss? Oh, she was two weeks pregnant.

Oh, right, two weeks. Oh, right. Like that matters. And like it matters. And you know what? You can lose a pregnancy at two weeks and be fine. And you can lose a pregnancy at two weeks and not be fine. It's very unique.

And we try and say there's no grief hierarchy as well. So, like, if someone is upset about a dog or a cat or a cat or No, genuinely, like we've had, I've done episodes on pet grief. Like, if you're upset, you're upset. Like, there's no point giving yourself shit about it and being like, it's just a dog, so I'm not allowed to feel anything. If you're all on the floor, weeping about it, then that's what needs dealing with. I mean, try not to judge yourself.

There isn't a right way to do this. It's just the way you're doing it. Yes. Excellent. That's a great way to end, I think. I mean, come on. Please. I am okay.

Genuinely, not just am I okay. I feel quite good. Good. Yeah, I feel really, it's like a relief cry. That's good. That's good cry. Yeah, it does. It does. And that's why it's just so continuous. But I feel really relieved. And I also can make sense of some things that I misplace things in myself. Exactly what you're saying about like, okay, the maths and the like, which is all my fear of being like, okay, and how can I can, you know.

That I wasn't saying, but I was definitely thinking, you know. And I knew enough not to say it, but I definitely had those thoughts. And now I can be like, okay, what's for me and what's for them? And what did they actually need? And what I need is to compartmentalise this bits of my own, my own shit that needs to go in this box. And now I need to show up and be present for somebody else and be useful and empty the bins. Yeah. Whatever your skills.

All these grieving people will be like, Carad, they're just coming around. They're just everything. Please give another tip. They keep calling the bank. They've done it. Bank stelt with bins are empty. Like, can you just tell them to bring me some flowers? It's so dark in here.

It'd be nice to be brighten up something. Lovely biscuits, tea bags, bits. Yeah, showing up. Oh, thank you so much. Thank you so much. If you're listening, get Carrie Ed's book, you are not alone. Because through it, I felt like I could speak to my friends better about it and feel more like, I know it sounds mad, but just feel more the expansiveness of it and how long it will take

and that it's not done in even five years. Like, even five years you probably find it. It's like, no, no. No, no. It's life. Sorry for the bad news. No, it's good to know. It's good to prepare oneself

and it's good to be on the same level as other people. Yeah, I suppose for people trying to help, it's a bit of a French dictionary to return to your fluent French. May we. May we. And even if you're struggling through it,

you're like, okay, here's something concrete that I can try and do. Yeah, yeah, I hope so. And are you just Carriad Lloyd on Instagram? Yeah, I am. Lady Carriad on Twitter, which I wish I wasn't,

but it's too late to say these things. Because of ostentatious, I imagine. It was a double act. Oh my gosh, yes, I remember you. Lady Carriad of Major Tom, bad name, bad name. That's not bad, I don't mind that at all. We lasted about three sessions before he was like, I don't want to do this. And so I just stuck Lady Carriott on Twitter when it first started.

It's great. I do regret it, but... Look, it's great. It's fine. Follow her. There's bigger things to worry about it. There is, like death. And so, yes, and then on Instagram, you're at Carriad Lloyd.

And listen to Griefcast, and thank you so much Carriad. Thank you. Thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you so much for listening. Good. Bye.