Nobody Panic - How to Deal with Imposter Syndrome

Episode Date: May 19, 2020

Stevie and Tessa both have imposter syndrome to varying degrees, and they’ve both done research to try and kick the habit. Or rather, as they discover, ACCEPT the habit and stop said habit from taking over your life and holding you back. You’re meant to be where you are! Own it! Go into that meeting with confidence. Don’t let opportunities freeze you with fear. You can do it! Recorded and edited by Naomi Parnell for Plosive Productions.Photos by Marco Vittur, jingle by David Dobson.Follow Nobody Panic on Twitter @NobodyPanicPodSupport this show http://supporter.acast.com/nobodypanic. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hello, I'm Carriad. I'm Sarah. And we are the Weirdo's Book Club podcast. We are doing a very special live show as part of the London Podcast Festival. The date is Thursday, 11th of September. The time is 7pm and our special guest is the brilliant Alan Davies. Tickets from kingsplace.com. Single ladies, it's coming to London.

True on Saturday, the 13th of September. At the London Podcast Festival. The rumours are true. Saturday the 13th of September. At King's Place. Oh, that sounds like a date to me, Harriet. Guys, before you listen to this episode of Nobody Panic, which you'll really enjoy, by the way, tonight, we're doing a live episode on YouTube where you can come in, watch us, and ask questions,

like, things you wanted to know how to do, and we will try and answer. Obviously, we are not experts, both can be very, very fun. The link is on our Twitter, so if you go on at Nobody Panic Pod, you'll find the link, follow the link, have a watch, and it's going to be uploaded as an actual episode, so you get to basically dictate the episode. We would love to have you. We'll go out live Tuesday the 19th on YouTube. Woo!

Do you feel like an imposter? That's lucky because that's what this episode's about. Welcome to the podcast. It's going to be about how to deal with imposter syndrome. I'm Stevie, and I'd say that I have imposter syndrome quite a lot of the time. And I'm Tessa, and I too would say that I have imposter syndrome. 99% of the time. And that's interesting because I think, Tessa, you often very confident about things.

You know, like, oh, circus school. Yes, I'll start at advanced, that sort of vibe. Yes. So I thought you were very much going to be like, and I've never been an imposter in my life. Goodbye. Oh, that is interesting. I'd like to redact my 99% of the time statement. 20% of the time, I have it 100% of the time.

How's that? Okay, sure. Yes, I feel baffling because in some areas of my life, I'm like, no, I'm, I'm, yes, I'll go in advanced and why not? And some areas, I have it so hard, it makes me cease to function. So it's a real roller coaster. Some people listening, have it all the time. Some people won't even realize that they have it until you listen to this episode and then you're like, oh my God, I feel about, I feel like it about that. Like it's not.

I've got a name for that thing I just was keeping inside. Yeah, we're going to do, we're going to explain what it is. We're going to do a little quiz, see if you've got it. We're going to talk about how to get rid of it. We're going to walk you through it. Before we start, imposter syndrome is basically feeling like you shouldn't be there. You are not good enough to be in the opportunity that you have been presented with. So it could be that you have been promoted at work and now you're with a whole new load of people

and you think, oh, it was a mistake. It's an idea that you've only succeeded you to luck and not because of your talent or your qualification. and it's basically anyone who isn't able to internalize and own their success. So no matter what good thing happens to you or what talents you have, if you brush them away and say, oh, it's this, it's that, it's that, that's imposter syndrome. Yeah, definitely. Great. So I'll start with the statistic before we get into our adult thing. Oh, please. Apparently, it's been estimated. And again, with these things, I never know how they've done this. Like, no one asked me if I had imposter's syndrome for this statistic. So who are they asking?

but it's been estimated nearly nearly 70% of individuals will experience science and symptoms of imposter syndrome and it is overwhelmingly often women who experience it which that you know hence the phrase like go into some whatever with the confidence of a straight man hence that famous phrase the famous phrase but whenever I've done anything or been a worried to do anything that someone will say that to me like think do you remember that guy that literally didn't know what he was talking about at that party and like explain something to you and he didn't know, do it with the confidence of him. And you're like, oh yeah, that man would be able to go into this meeting and be like, these are the facts having not researched any facts. Yes. Well, it's this sort of amazing thing that like, you know, there's 20 questions to do, but you can rate them from one, I've never felt that to five. I feel that all the time. And some of them, I think like, isn't that just being a human? Like, isn't that how we all feel all of the time? And then I'm like, no, look at the

state of the government. Look at, look at these people who have no clue what they're talking about. And it doesn't feel like it's ever crossed their minds that they might not be the ideal person for this job or that they maybe are underprepared or that maybe someone else could do this better or it would be better if they weren't there, you know? Oh yeah. You know that that famous thing of like, you know, if given a list of 10 things, the skills that you need for a job, women will only apply if they have. And obviously, this is a huge generalised statement about this study, but given a list of 10 things, women will only be. And then. Women will only be a list of 10 things. Women will apply if they have nine out of ten of the skills, whereas men only need three of the skills

to think that they will be fantastic at the job. And so I have that so hard in so many areas, but in, you know, and I believe that the current government have it that overwhelmingly. That's, and that's the sort of horrible catchphrane too with imposter syndrome, is that like if you feel like you have it, you do deserve your job. If you don't think you have it, you probably need to rethink. Yeah, that's true. Almost like everyone's, everyone's. should have an element of imposter syndrome because it keeps you humble. Mm. It keeps you humble.

And also it stops you going into the advanced circus class, you know? It's possible, you know, and if you are like me that you have polar opposites, you know, sometimes in the same day. I was just remembering that at one point in my life, I genuinely applied to be head of BAFTA. Oh, this is when you just graduated. Yeah, I had done. I graduated. Yep.

And you hadn't had any job experience. No. And, well, I'd worked in several bars and restaurants. And I thought, yeah, I can be head of BAFTA. And I found the job online. There was like 10 things. And one of them was like free in April to run the BAFTAs. So I was like, yeah, I'm free.

You told me this when you did it. And I for the whole, like, I think up until last year, that was like nearly 10 years, I thought you were joking. And it's only last year when you were like, no, I actually did. I did. I did. I just would apply for like anything because the stuff that I actually had the skills to do sounded boring. So I was like, I can be head. I can be head of BAFTA. And in that situation, it was right that I was not allowed to do it, you know, because I didn't know. And yet at the opposite end, there are things that I've been completely capable of doing or things I've been, I was going to say, rewarded with or things I have done in my life that I dismiss. And I say, oh, oh, God, no, no, no. Once I won this competition with Ideas Tap, rest in Peace, ideas tap.

And I maintained to this day that I won it due to a clerical error. And I just told people, and we were like, wow, you won this prize. And I was like, and I do actually think there may have been a clerical misunderstanding. But I just was so commonly, like, I just would brush it off and be like, oh, no, no, no, I'm here due to a clerical error. So you just said then, we will get into the adult thing, and then we will get into the episode in a second. But you just said then, oh, no, but I do believe it was a,

a mistake. What was the mistake that you think happened? They rang me, they, they, they, they, I received an email, I believe meant for someone else and then how do you know it was meant for someone else? I had someone else's name on it. Right. And then I believe they were too embarrassed to say that was that was a mistake so they let me win. That is. Okay. But on the other hand, yeah. If there was somebody that they actually wanted to win and that actually happened, it would be worse doing it the way around do you think it happened? I know.

Then it would be to give the person. So what actually seems like it happened is they genuinely just an intern put the wrong name on but it was meant for you. Your piece or your entry was the best. Otherwise that means that they ignored the best entry. So they did not do that. You got the top prize.

Yeah, I was the best. Yeah, you were the best one. Look at me, I'm like a little true. It's just the third. of it you've turned into a quasson i've turned into a quasson yeah you're right for years and years and years i just said oh i'm here due to a clerical era uh i used to say i yeah i was just thinking of all the times i've brushed away anything i've done and said and yet i applied to be head of baffta the same person did those things the same person just says things like oh yeah i've got level eight

jazz i'll i'll come to that class oh yeah in the opening ceremony of the olympic games which I danced in the opening ceremony. But on the application form, I said I had advanced trapeze skills and that I could fly into the stadium holding an umbrella as one of the Mary Poppins who come down on a zip wire. And I'd never been on a trapeze. I just said like, oh yeah. But it said very clearly,

do you have many years of trapeze skills? And I ticked, yes, I do. And I'd never, never been in a trapeze. So if you're listening, I'd say that that you are quite singular. Basically, Tessa, it's just like the entire spectrum of imposter syndrome, and you might place on the spectrum in some way. Somewhere along there. Shall we do adult things before we get too into it?

We've already about half an hour in, but let's do it. What is the adult thing that you have done this week, Tessa? I guess mine's related to you, Stevie. I made Stevie this very elaborate birthday TikTok with lots of people that we knew, and it took me really long time but I guess my adult thing

is that I okay I movie crashed which where I built it on oh my God and then I lost it all and I was like I'm not telling you this to you know

elicit anything merely to say that I had a moment where I was like well forget it fucker of course she's not having a birthday this year forget it and then

I had a bit of pasta and then I thought, come on, girl, you've got nothing on. We're going to stay up all night and fix this. And then I taught myself how to use Premiere Pro, very advanced software. I'm on a free trial, so please remind me to unsubscribe to that. Otherwise, I'll be paying £9 a day for this advanced video editing software and taught myself to do it. But I think the adult thing was that I carried on, you know?

I plowed in the face of adversity. I was like, no, come on, you can do this. Let's just rethink outside the box. This was going to talk about this in the podcast, but I have this quote here from Henry Ford. He sent this to me directly. I'm not sure who Henry Ford is, but I suspect, Stevie. I hope he makes Ford cars. But he's like basically the godfather or the father of capitalism.

Oh, really? And the working days. He like set the 9 to 5 thing. Like he was like the granddaddy of factories and making things. Well, think what you like about him himself. But what he said was, failure is the only opportunity to begin again more intelligently. It's so true, isn't it? Which I feel like that at the time.

Because I did, it is better. The thing I made is better on the, because originally I was like, I should do the, I should get the best software. I should do the best job at this. And instead I did a sort of hacky job on Imovie, which then crashed and taught me that begin again more intelligently, like do this. And I did do it faster and quicker and better the second time around, you know. And may I say it was so good that I shed a tear. Your time and effort was well appreciated and worth it. Well, it was nice to have a project, quite frankly.

I've got nothing on. What's yours? Difficult to try and spin this into an adult thing. It's more like, what have you done that for? I have mentioned, I think, on the podcast recently, where I was like, I'm not doing, I'm having to stop online shopping. Like, I need to stop that. And the thing that tipped me over the edge to stopping it

was that I, at like 4 a.m., read something terrible that Trump had said, and then immediately bought, like, two sets of clown cuffs. I mean, not actual clown cuffs, but like they are in the shape of a, clown. No, again, not the joke of like a human clown. They were Lawrence Llewellyn-Bowen.

Lawrence Llewellyn Cuffs that you just like put on underneath a top, I guess. Anyway, mad. And it's not like I've been like, oh, let's just test it out. But I bought like four. They haven't arrived yet. But the other thing, the thing that has arrived is the thing I bought alongside it, which is, what can only be described is sort of a neck cuff that you put on and it's sort of makes you look like you've got, you're wearing a zip, a zip, it's a zip,

it's a zip up neck. off with a big sort of jangly zip that makes it look like you're wearing a zipped up top underneath your top. Like imagine a zipped up black polar neck and now just take away the whole rest of the polar neck. So it's just literally the polo neck.

Yeah. That's it. And I think in my head I thought it was going to be like there was a period of time where I bought quite a lot of collars and they'd have a bit of shirt underneath. So you'd tuck in the bit of shirt underneath and you put the collar on over a t-shirt.

So it looked like you were wearing a shirt underneath a toe. It's quite smart in a way. but this stops so high up that you could just exposed net. Basically, the only way to wear it is with another polar neck. Which completely negates the whole thing. Look, it was 25 pounds. It wasn't even cheap. Send it back, Stevie.

Well, I think you've got a lot of joy out of it, if I may. I've got a lot of joy out of just how absurd it is. I've seen you wearing it a lot. Like I say, I'm struggling to make it into an adult thing. So I think it's mainly just a thing I've done. and I have learned from it. What have you learned? I've learned to not buy something that I don't know what it is.

Like, I don't know what this is. That is absolutely pointless to say you've learned that. And I give it four to five days on the clock before something else arrives that you've fought in the night. But look, what is being an adult, if not constantly trying and failing? And isn't failure an opportunity to do it more intelligent the next day? To begin again more intelligently. Yes, Stevie. So now you'll just remember to measure your collars when you buy them.

measure the colours. That's it. Talking of beginning again more intelligently. Let's try and begin to unravel imposter syndrome. Well, first up, as you know, I love to tell you the history. May I tell you the origin of this expression? It was first identified in 1978 by psychologists, two ladies, Pauline Rose Clance and Suzanne Eimes. And they theorised in their paper that women were uniquely affected by imposter syndrome.

But later, both of them came forward and said, actually we discredit that idea that it's not just limited to women. Everyone can experience this, but at the time it was about, and I do believe that, I believe that women experience it in a greater proportion, not certainly the only women experience it, but more women are more likely to experience it. Yeah, and also you don't just have to believe that, baby. It's actually proven. They've done studies and whenever, and every single statistical kind of proportion of people

that they study, every single cross-section, more women feel it stronger than men. Yes. Yes, absolutely. So this is 1978, and they invented these 20 questions, which are still on the internet. You can Google Pauline Rose Clance, Imposter Syndrome or Imposter Phenomenon, 20 questions. And I'm not going to ask you to do them, Steve. I'm going to sort of say a selection of them. Sure. So you say either not at all true, one point, or very true, five points. I avoid evaluations, if possible, and have a dread of others evaluating me. that's difficult because I actually run towards being evaluated while dreading it fascinating you can put number three sometimes when people praise me for something I've accomplished I'm afraid I won't be able to live up to their expectations of me in the future

oh like so much too much if there's a number beyond the scale let's go for it so like you do something well then the next time it comes around and who among us hasn't like even just like cooked I tried to cook something the other day that I had done well in the past and immediately said like, oh, this will be shit this time. I fucked it this time, you know? Oh my God. I can't do anything without being like, just put in the little disclaimer at the start. This is a part of shit. Because then it, then anything's a bonus, right? I just own it. Just own it. Um, I sometimes think I obtained my present position or gained my present success because I happened to be in the right place at the

right time or knew the right people. Yes. I'm afraid people important to me may find out I'm not as capable as they think I am. Yes. I tend to be in the right place. I tend to be in the right place. I'm to remember the incidents in which I've not done my best, more time, more than those times, I have done my best. I might burst into tears now. Yes, yes, 100% all the time. Sometimes I feel or believe that the success in my life, where in my job has been the result of some kind of error. Okay, that's actually not me. I don't feel like it's error. I always feel like it's luck or it's like, also to be honest, I'm just always like, I haven't done anything, which is so stupid. Okay. But you're very much clerical error, aren't you?

Do you never put yourself down to some kind of luck? So this one is at times I feel my success has been due to some kind of luck. Oh, yeah, yeah, I do feel luck, yeah. That's anything that I get, I'm like, oh, well, that's just because I've, thank God, that person helped me or thank God, like, yeah, that person just happened to see it. And they only liked it because they probably, like, were drunk or something, you know, they did that lot. Yeah.

It's hard for me to accept compliments or praise about my intelligence or accomplishments. Yes. I'm disappointed at times in my present accomplishments, and I think I should have accomplished much more. I mean, that's like the most one, yeah. Whereas conversely, for me, that I would almost put not at all true. Interesting. So.

If you completed this list, all of these questions, the response would be, sorry, we don't understand. We don't understand you because luck, clerical error, you know, I'd put a 10 out of five for that. Yeah. But am I disappointed? But the things I, but I do think I have achieved a number of things due to the luck and clerical error, you know? That's great.

When I have succeeds at something, I have doubts I can keep repeating that success. Yeah, that's a big one. I often compare my ability to those around me and think they must be more intelligent than I am. Fucking hell. These are, yes. I'm so, this is almost getting boring now. Yes. But again, for me, I'm like, no.

No, sorry, I am the best. I'm just right. There's never been a boy born that's more intelligent than me. No. but I worry about not succeeding with a project or even though others around me have considerable confidence that I will do well. That's, yep, 100%. Oh, if I'm going to receive a promotion or gain recognition of some kind, I hesitate to tell others until it is an accomplished fact. You do that?

So hard because I'm a terrible jinxer, you know? Yeah, so I really do feel that most people will either be ones or fives on this list. Or if you're Tessa, one-five, one-five, three, one-five, one-five, one-five. Yeah. I can give the impression I'm more competent than I am, and I've often succeeded in a task, even though I was afraid I would not do well before I undertook the task. That's a good one. Yeah.

Yeah, I think appearing more competent than you are does really require some confidence, isn't it, sometimes? I tend to not, I always tend to go in, like, the opposite. I'm like, hello, I'm shit. I can't do anything. If you get anything out of me, frankly, it'll be a miracle. Yeah. Why don't mind?

The job I did get, the internship I got, I mean, I applied to BAFTA, didn't get it. And then what I did do was work at this internship where I was, well, it was not a very nice place to work. In fact, I'll come out now and publicly say it was a terrible place to work. We weren't being paid and it was not at all clear what we were doing. And it's where I taught myself to use, like, Photoshop and various sort of, you taught myself to do lots of things while I was there. because somebody came past my desk and said,

well, it was an advertising company and they need to do like a mood board. So one came past my desk and said, oh, can you just quickly Photoshop a picture of Christian Ronaldo standing on Tieri-on-Ree's shoulders and both of them enjoying a can of Pepsi? If you've never used Photoshop, that request is like, sorry? Sorry, what? Whereas now, honestly, I could do that for you. I could put me on the clock, I can do that for you in 15 minutes, and it'll look smashing.

But at the time, I remember just wanting to feel physically sick because of, of course, I couldn't do that for you. And I remember, honestly, people would come to my desk and before they'd even ask me a question, I would say, don't ask me, I'm hopeless. Like, what a way to sell yourself a job? Don't ask me, I'll mess that up. I'll be rubbish, I'll be shit, you know? And then after a while, I taught myself to do these things, and I saw the work that other people were producing. And I was like, oh, if that's what the standard of work is, like, maybe I can do this thing. But we're so quick to be like, oh, no, I'm a little cram.

I'm a croissant. Don't ask me. Don't ask the croissant. The quasson just got here by luck. So if you're listening and you identified with any or all of those sentences, then please, you know, you've got it, but it's not, probably not helpful to call it a syndrome because it makes it sound like it's not, like you said before, Tessa, being human. It's a part of being human.

It's, we are like animals who've been thrown into this system, which is it the best. way to be, do know, like, it's so competitive and so based on things that maybe aren't good for us, that we do feel, like, confused and we react badly to things. And I think it's like a very, very normal part of life. So if you're like, but I identified with at least five of those, you're well done, you're alive. The original creators of the theory called it a phenomenon, imposterous phenomenon, like just a human phenomenon. That's the thing that we all do. And it's more like, it's weird that we do it and we all do it. Absolutely. And so there are obviously, it's very difficult to go like, and so here's ways to completely eradicate it. Because what I read is that obviously

your brain has a lot of different ways in which to keep you moving forward and keep you on the right track. His imposter syndrome comes from a reaction from your brain, which is similar to fear, which is why if you're frightened of something or if you're jealous of something, it's actually a positive emotion because what your brain is trying to do is trying to show you and it's trying to kind of G you up. It's basically the equivalent of someone being like, I don't think you can do that. And you're being like, I will do it. That's what your brain is trying to do. Unfortunately, because of how complex this world is now that we operate in, these messages can get a bit lost and can spiral out of control if you don't acknowledge them. And so we've got to the point now where, yeah,

imposter syndrome is now like a thing that we feel about everything when it was really only supposed to exist to be like, maybe you shouldn't be here so you could work a bit harder. And it would help you to progress. Like, for example, if you were like, a caveman, which is an example I always use, a caveman who's like out hunting and you're the kind of, the worst, if you feel like maybe I'm not the best hunter in the group, you will try and run faster, you will work harder, you will bring home that lion so that it will help you with your social standing and help your survival. So that is all we're doing. We're trying to bring home a lion. And so, but what happens is when you don't accept that, you then become like obsessed with bringing that lion in all times,

all the time you want to be bringing in a lion. And you don't have to. It's okay. And so I think that's the first kind of way of overcoming it is to see how normal it is and how it is just, it's your brain trying to be helpful. It's your brain trying to give you a little nudge rather than tell you can't do it. And the problem is, is that it makes a lot of people freeze. It makes me freeze. I had a situation this week where I was basically given feedback on a project that I'm working on, which was essentially, yeah, the idea is good, but no, no. And I was absolutely devastated for like, I'd say two, three, three days. And then it was like, well, what are my options?

Well, I could just be devastated for the rest of my life. Or I could change it, look at the notes without emotion and just try and keep going. I can feel myself starting to begrudgingly use it as an impetus to keep going. But in the past, I've definitely been derailed massively by the space. feeling, but I think the more you, I'm older than maybe some of the, of you guys listening, and the more, I've had so many more of these. She's 100, guys. Sorry, no, 101.

It was my birthday yesterday. I'm sorry, sorry. No, I'm 32. And so it throughout my 20s, what would have derailed me for years and did, now derails me for a little bit of time because I've been derailed so many times that you know that feeling is like an old friend. And then you're like, okay, well, will I act like I did last time? That didn't work because that just lost me loads of.

of time. Oh, will I just be very annoyed for a bit? Get it all out, cry a lot, make lots of food, and then be like, okay, boring, here we go. You know? So there's an imposter syndrome or imposter phenomenon, expert, Valerie Young, who wrote a book called The Secret Thoughts of Successful Women. Ooh, yes, please. In her book, the secret thoughts is more about, like, the secret things that we never admit that we're actually going into a meeting. You know, if you could hear, if you saw the outside of a meeting, everyone's like, brilliant idea, okay, let's action, blah, blah, blah. And if you saw a heat map of people's actual brains and thoughts, they'd be like, I'm shit, quick, say something so I don't look quite so shit.

You know, every single person is freaking out no matter what you look like on the outside. Very helpful. But she suggested there were five different types of people who might have this feeling. Either you're a perfectionist and you set extremely high expectations for yourself. And so even if you meet 99% of that, you always feel like a failure. And any small tiny mistake will make you question your own competence. And you'll immediately be like, I'm an idiot. That's me.

Genuinely was like, well, if I haven't written a Pulitzer Prize winning a book by 24, then I might as well kill myself. Exactly. Yes. Exactly. Or you might be an expert and you might feel the need to know every single piece of information before you can start a project. And you're constantly looking for a new certificate or training to improve a skill.

And you won't apply for something unless you meet everything. And you also never want to look stupid. you want to always feel as you use, you know, research and books and like learning everything you can about a subject in order to put a wall up to protect yourself from ever feeling like you don't know the answer or you might be a failure. Not me and I suspect not you either. No, 100% not. This one is the natural genius and I'm going to say right now you can skip that one, but fine.

I suspect nobody one wants to say that this one, but. I suspect it's any kid who was in a sort of like gifted and talented program at school or like, you know, I think those are pretty damaging to children. If you're a natural genius, so you, by the whatever reason, you were extremely good at something as a child or as an adult. And then you attempt to do something else and you're not as immediately talented and good at it as you were at this one thing. You consider that to be an enormous failure on yourself. And so you struggle to work hard or accomplish something. It means you aren't good enough. Your used to skills coming very easily.

And when you have to put in any effort whatsoever, your brain tells you that that's proof that you're an imposter and that you shouldn't be here. Okay. And then the last two are the soloist, and I would put myself in this category, which is they feel they have to accomplish tasks on their own. And if they need to ask for help, they are in some way of failure. I'm nodding because that is you. It's not me, but that is very much you, yeah.

Yeah, that's for sure. me and the Superman or superwoman who push themselves to work harder than those around them to prove that they are not impostors. They feel the need to succeed in all aspects of their life without work as parents as partners and feel stress that they're not accomplishing something. And again, they make the supermen make their identity that they are the best at something. I suspect they are maybe not natural geniuses but who have to put the effort in. So it's not something that came naturally to them. they actively put the effort in to always make sure that they were the best and that was their

wall. But basically all these things are just walls basically. My one as a soloist is like my wall is like don't ask for help. Don't ever admit you can't, you know, do it. It's help is weakness. Help is weakness. Don't cry. Never cry. Baby. Protect the brand. You know, or actively be, you know, if you can't be the best, be the worst, you know, be actively like, oh, I didn't try. Oh, I didn't. You know, it's that vulnerable thing of like you never want to say, this is the best. that I tried my very best and this is it. And this is it, yeah, that's the hardest thing. That is one of the hardest things to do.

They're all Venn diagrams, aren't there? Because I can see a bit of myself in lots of them, and then some of them I don't. But it's very, very difficult to come up with, like, a hard and fast rule for how to stop it, because, like, we say, it's like a natural thing that your brain produces to sort of help you. You need to see it rather than...

Never try and, like, get rid of it, because you're just going to be pushing against yourself, so it's pointless. It's like with meditating. I always thought meditating was, um, you had to empty all your brain of thoughts and and you had to like reach this kind of level where you're just like essentially a mist but turns out according to Tamara Leavitt in the calm app it's about being able to acknowledge and accept what your brain is doing and not react to it

and when you spot it then you have to like it's like ah right so now it's time to um basically look at what's really happening rather than what my brain is telling me so when you get a new job when you get asked to write something or do something that you think is out of your remit, then it's time to, it's time now to write down all the things that you have done in the past that have led you to get that. And you might go, nothing, absolutely nothing. Well, it's not. You weren't born and then you were asked to do this. I always think about you saying you're not about the Formula One. No one's on your window and it's like, do you want to be a Formula One driver? And then, and then rightly, you should be like, I do not think I've qualified for this job.

However, if it's something, it's your literal job, it's like, then clear, the steps are right there. Like, you worked really hard at this thing. You, you did this work. You did X, Y, Z. Like, here is the really clear stepping stones that's leading to this point. Even if there is an element of look, like I think about Olivia Coleman getting, I think it's a BAFTA or an Oscar, or one of the million awards that she's received.

And one of her speeches, she said, I've got so many active friends that could be stood in this, in this place. But I got here because there is actually a possibility that there is. there is some look involved. But then if you look around, everyone else is achieving, there's some look involved with them as well. It's not like, oh, everyone else got here, purely off-graphed, and I got lucky. That is not, that's not how anything works, because everybody gets anywhere with a combination of lots of different things, hard work, being in the right place, the right time, who you know, and look, and they all combine.

That's just how the world works. So you could get a promotion because, you know, it just so happened that you were put on a project that actually you were really, really good at and you really shone at. But if you'd have been put on the other project, maybe you wouldn't have done. So they're only hiring you based on this one project. There's actually quite a limited skills. Right. It's all bullshit because you did a good job on that. A lot of other people wouldn't have done. You know? So yeah, it's like, yeah, you're right. It's like the look wouldn't happen if you didn't have a specific skill set in this to start with. Yeah. There's a lot. But like it's also you showed up in the luck queue.

There we go. Yeah. I did put my, to put my self in it for a moment. I went out to, I had absolutely, went absolutely bananas at being offered this like pilot deal in America off the back of this, my first Edinburgh solo show. And I went, the imposter syndrome, I would say like, was off the charts and genuinely detrimental to my health. And I would say things like that all the time that I would be like, oh, I just, I must, I just happened to be here at the right time.

like I happened to meet these people. Like I'd been given this like Charlie in the chocolate factory golden ticket. I was like, why me? Why, why me? Like I shouldn't have this. And people would have to like sit me down for hours at a time. And I'm sorry to everyone who had to coax me through it and be like, you weren't just handed a Charlie in the chocolate factory golden ticket. Like you wrote a show.

You took it to Edinburgh. You paid for yourself to go to America. You put on your show. You went to these meetings. Like you did, here are the steps. Like these are the things. that you did that like, you know, you put yourself, you showed up in the luck queue, you know, and you can't just pass it off to someone else and be like, here are other more deserving people.

Like, yes, everybody is talented and capable, but you ultimately have to be like, okay, but it's my life and I showed up and I, you know, there's this absurd, I mean, there's several American absurd books, but a lot of them are things making you repeat things to the extent of like, I am deserving of everything that the universe has to. offer me. Yeah. That's true. It makes your bumhole clench, but... Oh, it's awful.

Oh, it's so clenched up there, but... But it is true. Yeah, and I would say that it's going through that process is the ultimate, like, you get to begin again now more intelligently. You get to begin again now so that next time something positive happens, you don't spend so much time going absolutely mad because you didn't believe you were allowed anything good. And you are aware of those thoughts and when you find yourself saying, like, I'm here, due to a clerical error. You're like, is that a thought, a help or a hindrance? And even if you

believe it, be like, is it any use honestly believing it? Like, or would it be more helpful if we just, if I sort of stopped believing that? Yeah, and it's very deflecting. You can find yourself deflecting with humour quite a lot. With the clerical error, sounds very funny in conversation and makes people laugh. But then, I'm doing that because I'm ignoring a problem that I have with success and we're feeling like I don't deserve it. Another thing that kept coming up when I was reading about imposter syndrome was like really reminding yourself and, or just knowing that everybody has this, everybody, everybody feels like, oh, should I've got that?

Or like, no one has just been like, ah, and I'm completely in the right place, the right time at all times. I think except perhaps Boris Johnson. I think it does. I think it does have some level. I'm sure he does. The way that I think he sort of frantically grasps that speaking Latin and French. sometimes, shows that he's insecure because he's trying to, he's literally trying to go like, I am more intelligent than you. I am. I am really intelligent. And you should listen to me.

Yes. You're very rarely in a room where it is like you think it is, where everybody knows what they're doing and you don't. It just will be at best, everybody else in the room has figured out how to look like they know what they're doing. Because so much of what we talk about on the podcast as well is about how, it's just about appearing and showing up and blagging and then you blagging until you sort of like understand the stuff behind the blagging and then by that point you're in and you're fine my poor sister who she's she's so great and for Christmas a few years ago I got her I bought her improv lessons and which is not in her wheelhouse at all but she was so brave and and she went she was like everyone else is so confident

everyone else is so funny I was like everybody else is as terrified as you are like every and she's like no no no they're not they're not I was like I swear on my life that they look confident and they look like they're talking the talk and walking the walk. Inside they are dripping in sweat and she would say how like sweaty she would be. And so we would say, she was like, I'm so soggy and we would chant, everyone is soggy. What she went to every class, be like, just remember that everyone is soggy. It's not about you being like, I'm the shit one, I'm the worst one. Everybody is experiencing it. All that they can control is how good they are at pretending they're not soggy. And that's it. That's it. It's always the people. It's always

that in like films and in books. This is a character that's like really overconfident. And then suddenly it turns out that they're actually really broken. And that's actually true in life. And as you get like in my early 20s, everybody who is like, oh my God, they're just unstoppable. They've all shown that they're not, that everybody is stoppable, everybody is frightened. And yeah, you're so right.

The difference is how you, how good you are and how practiced you are at hiding it. And hiding it can be very, very unhealthy. but it's also very, very healthy in some respects, because it's unhealthy if you're not dealing with your Aboste syndrome at all, and you're just being like, I'm going to speak Latin, and that's going to be the solution. But it's healthy if you're able to deal with it, look at why you feel like that,

make lists of how you got there, and then, and then be like, okay, so look, everyone else is, everyone else is kind of blacking a little bit. You know that everyone else is doing that. Everyone else is going in with as much confidence as they possibly can, and you can do that as well. Yeah, these are your three take-homes. One, you deserve to be here.

Two, everyone is soggy. And number three, I haven't thought of a third one, Stevie. What's our third take-home? Third take-home is it's not a negative, it's a positive, and the only thing you can do is accept that you're going to feel like that. Don't try and stop it. Just tell it to get in the back seat. No, get in the front seat with it.

Oh, right. Well, don't let it drive. you know you're driving and then it's just it's just and now you're just like chatting to it and getting to know it a bit better okay perfect but don't let it when you stop off don't let it go and buy the snacks no no it stays in the car it stays in the car you've got them you've got the map it just happens to be in the car as well and that's it those are it those are it those are it look if you enjoyed that i've really did what a great episode that was we deserve to be here we do deserve to be here me and

In my cough and my neck cough and my pyjamas, I couldn't be more confident. Just visualize it, guys. And whatever it is you think, it's slightly weirder than that. And that's it. Please do message us if you have any podcast episodes you'd like us to do. Nobody Panic Podcast at gmail.com. And also tweet us at Nobody DiPanick Pod or me at StevieM. The S is as ever a sank.

Oh, very well. For me, it's a T-U-S-S-A, C-O-A-T-U-S. I only know how to do one thing, and it is spell my name in French. And I'm smashing, and I'm showing you, I'm showing off my skills. It's Tessacote. And if you've ever been through imposter syndrome, if you've crested through the other side, if you're feeling it, if you've got a great thing that you told yourself or that someone else told you, let us know.

Tell the people. And yeah, have a good week. And just like, you deserve to be in that week. Do you know what I mean? Do you know what I mean? Bye. Bye.