Nobody Panic - How To Deal With Work Place Politics

Episode Date: January 15, 2019

Survive the ruthlessness (or banality) that is office politics without becoming a psychopath! Tessa tells Stevie about sand-bagging which she claims isn't a sex thing. It's absolutely a sex thing. Support this show http://supporter.acast.com/nobodypanic. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hello, I'm Carriad. I'm Sarah. And we are the Weirdo's Book Club podcast. We are doing a very special live show as part of the London Podcast Festival. The date is Thursday, 11th of September. The time is 7pm and our special guest is the brilliant Alan Davies. Tickets from kingsplace.com. Single ladies, it's coming to London.

True on Saturday, the 13th of September. At the London Podcast Festival. The rumours are true, Saturday the 13th of September. At King's Place. Oh, that sounds like a date to me, Harriet. I've bought some new gear. I've bought some podcast gear. Sorry, my name's Stevie and this is Tessa.

If you're listening for the first time, I don't normally start podcasts with everything like, hey, I've bought gear. I know gear actually can mean drugs. And that's what I mean for it now. Yeah, guys, it's early in the morning and we're riled on cocaine. I'm absolutely riled up.

We've got a block of it. We've bought a block of cocaine to celebrate the fact that I've bought a cool podcast mic. I mean, tweet us if it's aggressively bad. and also we're doing it in my flat and there's a family who live opposite that scream at each other. So if you hear in the background,

I mean, I see it as a sort of added soap opera Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You'll narrate what's going on. Yeah, currently, nothing. Out of time. The machine itself is balanced on a tray. It's balanced on a breakfast tray. Then Stevie's got her headphones on.

She looks fantastic. Thank you. I'm in pajamas, Tessa has not mentioned that. But it just means that we don't have to like book it because basically you've not. You don't care for this. admin, but we've had to book a studio, everything on time, we need to do it. And that's too much adult stuff. So now, I'm going to take it to Tessa. Tessa gone come to me. Great times. Fantastic.

Basically, we're just taking things of our own hands here. Oh my God, yeah. Which, um, it doesn't actually fit with the topic at all, but say it did. Oh, um, how, now we've made our own workplace, if you will. Yes, but what are we going to do about the workplace politics? I don't even know. because you're being a bitch. That's an example of quite an aggressive workplace politics. I'd say more bullying. Politics is, I own the microphone, so you've got to be friends with me

to make sure that you get ahead, for example. Those politics and more. And more. Somebody worried in to ask about this one. Anna J. Keep it anonymous, so no one in your office knows. Oh, sorry. Banner Blay.

Correct. Eric Banner. So Eric Banner wrote in and was like, having a lot of problems on the set of Batman. Am I? No. He was in... Is he the current Hulk?

No, that's... I was going to say, I was going to say, I was going to say, Roger Federer. He is not the current Hulk. It looks about in Mark Ruffalo. Yes, I like him.

He's great. But his name is Bruce Banner. Bruce Banner, yes. So Eric Banner... He played Bruce Banner. Extraordinary scenes. I know. Extraordinary scenes.

This one is about office politics, workplace politics, dealing with people in when your boss is a bitch, you sit beside someone who's awful. And also, like, workplace politics, I think. The definition of it is basically the stuff that helps you get ahead with your job

that is nothing to do with merit. You presume that it's like the person next to you is being a dick, but actually it can be more insidious than that. It's, oh, I'm not actually like good friends with that person across the room, but that person across the room if I would be friends with them, would get me a promotion. Or like,

we all bitch about this one person, but I don't feel comfortable doing it. So I'm not going to but then now I'm excluded from the rest of the group it becomes a constant moral question all the time of like do I really want to get involved in that or not all of the articles and like the final point is like make sure that you still remain someone that you can look in the mirror and like it's like Jesus Christ the deeper you go reading into it and there are if you would like to get involved so many books out there there is so much like getting ahead in the office like Machiavellian tactics it's all very intense and there's all like gameplay and you're like

who is a, who, who could do that? Like, who is capable of being, like, that on it every day? Oh. Even in, like, the quite low-level, chilled-out offices I've worked in, I've worked in one that had very little office politic. Mm-hmm. Liking that. Not sure if it's right.

And, uh, actually, like, a really, like, fun group of girls. And then one, um, which was, essentially should have been less because it was, like, younger people. and for a really like nice, working towards a nice aim, but there were office politics there, like, the boss was very particular and basically, like, you just knew you had to sort of be like a certain way in order to get ahead, it sounds really silly,

but I've never worked in obviously like a corporate environment, which I think then it really ramps up again. Yes, it's that classic thing about like the deals happen on the golf course, you know, and if you aren't invited to the golf course. That's my first point. Go and play golf. It's like that, like, you know, that you go into the workplace and you think like well merit good work will be what allows me to

progress it turns out of be 101 different other things i've worked in offices where i've had absolutely no skin in the game i was just here to clock in my hours there was no promotion there was nothing to achieve understand uh no one really cared if i did or didn't do you know anything there and i've just like been an observer of the politics and i've also worked in places where it's been apparent about like favoritism and who's on whose team and who's going to be given something because they're friends with somebody and you know who's just getting ahead because they have the confidence to believe that they should be there are things you can do they're quite simple and it seems to be about just being a nice person and being also like an involved sociable person

in the office as well even once there's one more person than you doing something and even sometimes with yourself things can get out of hand they can how to deal with office as politics in your own brain. For real issue. But as soon as there's two of you, like, there's going to be people that's going to be rowing. There's going to be problems.

Yeah. At least if there's two of you, like with us, we don't have the issue of like who to befriend in order to get ahead. Yeah, there's no one else. We both have to bitch out and befriend. You just have to remain friends. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

But what was your adult thing this week? Basically, I bought a thing off Instagram. Oh, Christ. Yeah. That's good. Yeah, you know when you get those, all those adverts. Yeah. Shop now.

Yeah, shop now. And low, I have shopped. Did you shop? Yeah, I bought this. She's showing me, it's the perfect backpack for your travel. Modernist, oh god, that is good. It's got lots of compartments. You're right?

Small bag, huge capacity. Many partitions. Yes. It's a 14-inch laptop. It's one of those videos where like everything is very neatly laid out and then somebody very in sped up hands put all the stuff in. But it's just got loads of zips. And look at this, it's got a USB thing.

Oh, for your phone. For your phone. Then it's got this, and those little white. go around there when you're traveling go on your it's like it someone's made a bag for you I know and I got it in black with the gold zip which is my favorite that's really good and it's got a little thing on the side for my water bottle and I bought myself a water bottle basically I'm filling the bees and is it here with me no that's fine it's at home staying new like cause but my point is that I bought it because I've been watching it for so long just like and I was like maybe I'll just

sew a compartment onto my new backpack and I was like live your life open your lemonade get a Yeah, bloody backpack. Don't sew a backpack. Don't sew a backpack. Also, somebody that I also follow on Instagram, an influencer, if you will, but she'll remain nameless. Okay. But you do know who.

Okay. Did this post that was like when you take a lot of screenshots or you make a vision board, and even if you're a person who vision boards or doesn't, you still sometimes look at images in magazines or pictures or anything like, oh yes, that. Yes, I like those leggings. I like those leggings. This thing appeals to me.

and if you look at all the stuff that you're currently looking at, for me it was like always organizational things. And I think that could be like more organized. It's like, do you actually want that or does it spark to a greater need? And actually is your need to like be more organized? Is it speaking to something deeper? I would say yes. I would say yes too.

And her idea was like if you always pick up, do pictures of like cozy sofas or whatever, do you want a blanket or do you want like warmth and stability and family and home and all of those things. Is your heating turned off? Are you cold? Yeah. I was like, what an interesting way of looking at things. And I said, made me be like, oh yeah, I do.

And therefore I was like, fly the bloody backpack. That's a great, that girl. Be that girl. Yeah. What's your adult thing? Mine is, it's possibly an adult thing or I've done it wrong. So, I had this conversation, very dull conversation, but as we've discovered, adult things can be boring.

I'm often boring. The more boring, the more boring. for more adult. Absolutely. My whole life brought up by our parents to be like, never get a credit card, never get a loan. That's my thing.

Me too. Right, I think it's a real thing. So then... Oh yeah, number one. It was like my... Never, never, never. I've got a student loan, that's it. Guys, strapping, where is this going? In the space of like six months,

loads of different people said to me, oh, no, you need to have a credit card because if you don't have a credit card and you can't prove that you pay it off really regularly, how can you get a good credit score and I was like why don't need a credit score bitches and they were like for life and I was like okay then I spoke to my parents and they're like yes we've heard this as well you need to have a credit card at some point to prove that you regularly can pay off the loan and I was

like Jesus Christ I've never had one so that's that I can find I guess I'll have to get one then I just thought well I'll check my credit score anyway just to just you know just to say yes 999 out of 999 right okay which means now either I mean that has to be the most adult thing I've ever done in my life I've got a perfect credit score I cannot express how much I think you've done it wrong but I can't have done I hate to undermine you but I put in all the stuff right okay and they said we've got no record of you ever ever taking out credit yeah so you have a perfect score right great okay so that makes sense in terms of like so then my dad was like what if it's the banks doing a conspiracy so you have to get a credit card and not to get a good credit score oh right

because you've got the perfect score already. Because I've got the one without having a credit card. Holy shit. I have no advice because I don't know which is correct. But you're set up on your mystery quest. I've set off on my mystery quest. I'm going to go and do the most settled thing I think I've ever done, which is not for the reason that I'm actually in any position

to actually buy a house because I'm absolutely not. But I just want to see, I'm going to go to the bank and see what mortgage they could give me. If, and then if they're like, absolutely none because your credit rating is so bad, I'll know I've filled in the form wrong. Well, report back, please, what the bank said about the credit rating. We should probably

do a like, how to understand your money a bit better. I think we should do that because every time anything like this happens I go very hot and I don't understand and I need to Yeah. We need someone who's like If you can talk about money in a really simple way. Like Martin. Martin from Money Savings

Money Tips. If you aren't familiar with Martin get on board. Yeah, he's MoneySavingexpert.com And if you just literally type in Martin, money-saving egg book, he'll come up. I don't know what his last name is money, I think. Okay, so let's talk about office politics. So, before we, like, get balls deep into it,

there's a quote that I read. Lewis, Martin Lewis. Martin Lewis, okay. So, when you read about office politics, they can be quite scary. So, for example, there is a career's author called Erin Burt. Careers author Aaron Burt states,

avoiding office politics altogether can be deadly for your career. every workplace has an intricate system of power and you can and should work it ethically to your best advantage okay erin it's exactly the same as being at school you're like you can be a popular person or you can be like a total not popular person but there's also a massive thing in between which is probably the place where you want to be which is where like you can deal with the popular people sometimes they bully you sometimes they don't you can also be friends with the people who are really like, you know, struggling at school. You can be somebody that not everyone likes,

but certainly no one would pick out to kill first. Yeah, well, bloody hell. I'm reading a lot of dystopian fiction. Yes, but also that is the tone of all of these books. I think that's also, yeah. The front cover is like, of various of them, is a man with, like, a literal target on his back and then various members of the office in their business suit,

shooting him. Right. And exactly, like, when people talk about, like, going on Big Brother, back in the day when you were more sort of in it to win it, and less in it to be a famous be get a late you know a deal with hello sometime later people would go in being like my tactic is stay under the radar for the first couple of weeks like don't make so much of a scene don't get voted off you know then come in to play you know and so that was which is sensible it's like don't be either so weak or so good yes which is why they always say there's always like a bit half of it's like he's playing the game he knows what game he's playing he's playing he's playing it yeah Yes, he is. We all are. He's being nice to people, but he's not making a scene.

But if you're too obvious about it, everyone's like, oh, he's playing the game. Yeah. It feels disgusting. I actually find the office politics thing, just I can't be bothered with it. So I just didn't, I couldn't be bothered getting involved in the squabbles about, like, that department apparently is struggling, and she's spoken to her, and she said this. And so I just didn't go for after work drinks ever. I'd bring a book, and then when it was lunchtime. I'd go into a little, there's like a separate little room and I'd just go into the little room, eat my book, eat my book.

Okay. And that was troubling for people. Go to the room, read my book, eat my lunch, come back. Very pleasant to everybody. I was there for about four months and then they kind of looked, re-looked at my contract or whatever. And I got passed over and someone else got brought in, which I was fine with because I wanted to go back to being freelance. But if I had wanted to have kept that job, which money-wise I probably should have done, I should have just done that. little extra thing of just being um just being more sociable and also being able to figure out like

simple things like who all the people are what their job is what their relationship is with like the overall manager like is that somebody like without wanting to be like is he someone that i should be impressing or not kind of that because there's always someone in the office you're just like oh my god like they're annoying or they're they just talk about you know whether they're gonna get a Snickers or not or are gonna get a marsball or not for seven hours and then they get one and then they talk about how they've just had one and you just want to strangle them and somebody's on the five two diet always so's in the five two diet someone's consistently talking in depth about what they're going to cook that night someone's getting married in 18 months oh yeah and then every

three days and they're like oh yeah the dress and then you hear what happened that weekend about the wedding and you know that nobody surely nobody cares short like maybe Maybe there's one person in there who's a friend is actually going to the wedding. No one else is invited, because they don't know or care for the person. But those people that are annoying may be, you know,

if they're certainly in like a superior position, like you have to know which people you sort of have to like put up with. You know, will put in a good word for you or whatever. And it's grim. You basically have to decide, I think, whether you are in a job that you are just paying the rent,

clocking in, clocking out, doing your time. In which case, absolutely fine. headphones in headphones in however be aware that you do spend 10 hours of your day there

it's perfect even if you do think you hate everyone it's possible you might have a nicer time if you were tempted some kind of human interaction and you didn't feel like a whole part of your waking day was spent just like getting through the day yes so you know

absolutely and if you can find yourself a work partner a work lover then lo the day will fly past would you call them workwife. Yeah, I don't love the expression. No. But shout out to... All my workwives. Shout out to my work wives. Uh, only friend Lucy. Oh yes. I mean, her name is literally because she was my only friend. Yes. You were basically work wives.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. We remain to this day. We don't even work together. That's great. Yeah, have somebody in the office that you... But then you can like go to lunch with and then you can, if you need to get it out, you need to let it out. Because also then there's nothing worse than like going home. and the sort of tiny, boring, dull day-to-day stuff that's happening in your office, then you're then telling all your flatmates and your boyfriend and your girlfriend and being like, and then they don't, as much as they care the first to seventh time, you've talked about it, they don't need to know. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I live with a girl who's doing this presentation over the summer, and honestly, by the end of the summer, I think I could have gone in and done the presentation. Like, that's how aware of it I was. Yeah. Of all the people in the office. like what Miriam had done now like I was so involved Miriam

and I was like I don't care like it's so hard to care about other people's jobs you just can't so find another person otherwise the deeper and deeper that you get into your head every time you're in a meeting

and everyone's being an idiot and there's no one around for you to look to and like make like eyes at this you know the deeper you are like am I the mad one like is it me yeah so get yourself a friend but on that note

one of the big things about office politics, workplace politics, is gossip, because that's what it all... I love a gossip. I love a gossip. Unless it's about me, in which case, why am I gossiping? Exactly, you don't know. Odd, isn't it? And I also think that that is part of the balance between, like, going for drinks, making

connections with people in the workplace. Impossible to do that without getting involved in gossip. But then gossip, you have to be really careful about it because then you don't know these sort of, we just don't know how people are going to use what you've said. So number one rule, listen. If people want to gossip about you, just mostly be, but most of the listening party. It's very valuable and builds bonds if you're the person that people gossip too.

Like as in like, oh God, thank God you. Like I want to chat to you about this and whatever. But yeah, just don't get involved in stuff that you're like, oh, this is getting too far. Like, this is now bitching. Don't bitch about people. I think that's really important. But also you don't want to be involved.

be somebody who never has an opinion on anything for fear of being found out because then everyone else sees you as being an uptied boring person in the office so it's a really difficult it's just really difficult be the way to get around like yes to listen and to be like what happened oh and how that must have been awful or like why do you think she did that or be the person that I've always wanted to be that I've never been that you know when like someone looks upset in an office goes like let's go for lunch or like I'm taking you out for and you've never done that to like ping pong. I've always wanted to take someone out to ping pong.

Okay, you can. That's such an achievable dream. It's an achievable dream. The bar is so low for you. It's so low. Now I'm freelance. I don't have anyone to take out to ping pong. But also,

I've never been in a position in an office of any authority. So I can't go, I'm taking you out for, because I'm on like 18th brand. Like popped over to somebody in the account and be like, I'm taking her. And you're like, sorry, who are you? The intern.

Yeah. It's like, I'm taking you to ping pong. You know what? I'm taking it to ping pong. Get your bag, we're going to ping pong. But there was one, basically, there was one time where I did a really good job, like, at my job. I did a good thing in my job, and my editor took me to ping pong and was like, I'm going to take out to ping pong. And I felt so proud of myself.

And it was like, I want to be this person. But also be like, after work, we're going for drinks. Do not say no. We are going to talk about this. You're not someone that just keeps out of everything. Because you can tell the people that just don't engage. Yes, so store up all the times that someone took you to ping pong Or that you're like, wow, that made me feel, but look how it made you feel it.

It made me feel glowing. Glowing and you made you want to give that back to somebody else. So I'm constantly trying to get people to go to ping pong with me. It's good to know. Like store up the mouth and be like, oh wow, that made me feel like this. I make sure I'll say that to other people. And then store up all the bad ones that you either observed or been the recipient of and be like, make sure I don't ever do this.

Yeah, that made me feel small. Like, oh, this is obviously, I can see this, the cross-wire that are happening here, like observe everything, put it in your box, use it. There's that horrible term which is like added value, how can we add value to it? How can we add something positive to it? So if you look at like the office and you're like, okay, so I don't want to get involved in gossip, what can I bring that will improve the office vibe without that being a negative thing, without that being like a, you will never guess what so-so said.

I also just, it just caught my eye. And this over the top, very, like, serious article about office politics, which says, protect yourself as much as possible from anyone you suspect of machiavellianism or other of the dark triad of characteristic. The dark triad. Narcissism. Yes. Maciavellianism.

Yes. Psycopath. E. E. Yes. Yeah. It is. I get them all.

Shall I, should we say what each of them is? So that if you, like, if there's someone in the office who comes up with a dark tree ad. century Italian politician then you can steer clear oh god someone let's deep dive into gameplay if someone in your office if this rings a bell

then don't chat to them so narcissism a hunter who fell in love with his own reflection a pool of water if anyone does that in the office narcissistic people selfish boastful arrogant lacking in empathy and hypersensitive

to criticism I mean that sounds like me but I'm not I don't think but like the idea of like just full ego not doing anything to help anybody else out for themselves you're very aware that that person will do pretty much anything

to get that promotion they will throw you under the boss in a minute if you have a... You're not narcissistic No, I've just... When I said that, I realised it wasn't but I would accept the hypersensitivity. Okay. Okay. See?

I hate it. See? I'm so sad when no one says anything. Yeah, that is true, that is true. Machiavellianism, the word just come from a renowned Italian politician called Niccolo Machiavelli. I mean, this is too much history. Right, so basically...

I think never enough. Manipulation, self-interest, a lack of both emotion and morality. So a Machiavellian person, it is all about them, but they will do bad stuff, I think. I know some real dick-eds. I know people that have an element of it rather than, like, you are a Machiavellian person. But I guess they're so good at hiding it. Exactly. But I just don't know how.

you can actively get actively go through the day attempting an actual sabotage or an actual like yeah I don't know you to sleep at night how can you do that but people do you know how I you know can't play Mafia because I just shout I'm the Mafia Mafia is a parlour game where you have to hide the fact that you're a member of the Mafia and you have to kill the rest of the civilians in the group whenever Tessa was picked as Mafia no one else knows that's the point and she goes bright red and I can't speak and then says a Maffir But yeah, it's the first thing. So that's just a bit of background there.

But I'm very good when I'm a civilian at wheedling them out. Yes. But when I have to be the liar, I just go to pieces because I don't like to lie. Yeah. And I just crumbled. But a lot, like, so many people do. And that's, well, that's why they say that, like, there was this amazing statistic about the percentage of psychopaths they think are in

CEO or thereabouts positions. I can't remember what the percentage is. It's a high percentage. because you can be non-violent and be somebody who has no empathy and just knows how to get to the top and to use people. Yeah, because we're going to psychopathy now, but that's basically like, psychopathy is a mixture of narcissism

and Machiavellianism comes from it, but it's a lack of empathy or remorse, often anti-social behaviour, manipulative, volatile, incredibly intelligent, always somebody who uses other people for their own gain with no sense of remorse about that. And that sounds really like, I feel like it sounds so extreme, but I definitely have met or heard of or know of people

who actually are like that. But because obviously they're not like the head of Google, the level at which they trample on people isn't so aggressive. And I guess phrase is like, you know, don't hate the player, hate the game. Or like, it's just business or any of these things. It's like, this is just what I do in the business world, you know? Yeah. It's all, especially if you're working in anything that was like sales or corporate or anything

that was like would go-go-go-dum numbers-driven. I guess the people who are good at it are not listening to this podcast, they're busy reading The Art of War and, you know, Mackey Valley's top tips for the office. Those people are not listening. It's the people who are in the like,

oh my God, what are you all, why is, why, what is this? Yes. That are, you know, having more struggles with it. But what is this people? Our people. The what is this people? So, this is for, you've got someone

quite difficult on your hands. And you're like, you are a nightmare. And this might be from, you know, who's to say where they come from? I mean, who's to say, sorry, you've got a nightmare on your hands. And sometimes you have to work together and it's insufferable. And, oh, every day is a constant juggerheads of this person. Joggerheads. That's right.

A new one. So, as a rule of thumb, seek to understand before being understood. Right, Gandhi. Thank you. So we are so obsessed with like... No, can you just listen? Can you just listen? Can you just listen?

What I'm trying to say is, can you see it from my point of view? And everybody's just rowing. But if you're like, okay, seek to understand. And let me fully understand it from your point of view. Before I... Before I attempt to make you understand my point of view.

And often once you've fully understood theirs, you're like, it's irrelevant now. You don't need to understand mine. I've got yours. Like, and then people have been fully allowed to fully express themselves, fully say their point. And you've been like, okay.

And then also, to try and use a sort of win-win answer for solutions. I think we go through school and we have such a clear understanding of like if you win someone else must lose. It's so clearly like that's how things work. Like if you're the top of the glass. One minute or the other survives.

Absolutely, Stave it. You know, there's no world in which Voldemort and Harry Potter just shook hands. They can't. Right? But why not? The elder wand. But they could have got over it, I think. Sure, yeah, maybe.

Yeah. And so we're so obsessed with it's like, I must win so that he must lose. because Voldemort isn't really obsessed with winning he's just obsessed with Kering Harry Kitting Kitting Kri-Potter So that Harry Potter loses and therefore by default he wins A real deep dive into his psyche

But anyway we're so obsessed with like If you win someone else was loose But really in the real world It's possible for two people to win Like it's possible for two people to compromise and both succeed It doesn't have to be at someone else in this expense It's not this like someone has taken away My place at the table

Like the table can be infinitely large You know we don't have to see ourselves in this like competition and therefore like what is the way through this that's like everybody wins like is there a way through that's like compromise and doesn't have to be a you know a screaming round and the last one with

someone who's being a nightmare especially if they are you know looking for attention or just being or a bully or being a dickhead for no obvious gain is uh and this of course is from the 33 strategies of war

um get out of cannon get out of canon. No, famously, of course, Russia, 1812. Yes, yes. Napoleon invades Russia. Do you don't even have to tell me?

No, of course. We all know. But just say, it's the sake of the listeners. You know, you know. 1812, Napoleon invades from France invades Russia, expecting to meet and charges across the border meets no obstacle. Everyone's like,

way, oh, off we go. At no point did Napoleon meet the Russians? So, they never rode out to meet them. They just retreated and retreated and retreated back to Moscow in the path of the French is where the expression like salting the earth comes from and as they went they just burned

the Russians burnt everything in their path salted the ground, took down the bridges like made the route into Russia which is obviously so massive if you come from France and you're like I don't know a couple of kilometres across how big can it be and then you get to Russia and you're like holy shit

are we there yeah and we're going through Siberia and now we're in Siberia and everyone's like Napoleon turn this around this is a nightmare and of course it was they took them so long to finally get to Moscow they went into Russia with 450,000 people and got to Moscow at about 10 and then they were in Moscow and then they just shot them off so the Russians that lost no one right in this battle the French like army was decimated and so it's this idea one of the strategies of course is like you don't have to meet them you just have to continue to ignore them salt the earth it continue to ignore them

give them just a void to fight into until they're just so like that's a good point that's something that when you're little and your parents are like just ignore them you don't know how I feel of course I got but it does you don't know exactly and you're like no no one can't but when you get wiser and older you remember 1812 and you're like just just be like oh right and just retreat every time to be like I'm not giving you anything and giving them apps and giving them I think there's also there's a difference isn't it because when parents when my parents specifically be like don't say anything I'd be like right so then I'm just completely acts of the other person doesn't exist

but then that is actually doing something whereas not doing something is to be like okay be really civil so totally civil but in secretly you're salting the earth you know yeah so whenever you say like did you have a good weekend oh lovely just envision yourself salting the plains

of Russia because to the Russians like they were very much in that battle like they were you know drawing up those forces getting the ground ready absolutely you know has a lot of experience in warfare Yes, well I've read the book now I'm getting the ground ready

So you don't have to feel when it's like Oh just ignore them you're like No I want to fight like this is a tactic You know yeah don't have to feel that you've given into this person You're just fighting fire with water There's nothing more frustrating when you're angry There's someone be like right okay You're like no you scream back at me

Like I can't stand it Actually know the only worst thing is when someone laughs But don't do that because that is actually and technistic. Yeah, but in terms of just like being like quite blankly

like pleasant oh okay you're like it makes you worse but are they secretly salting the earth or are they actually oh they are salting the earth

oh my they are seasoning that ground and I think that and it gives them power yeah he needs power they're Russia they're Russia and then each time

each time that happens I'm like right next time I'm gonna but you just it's so difficult to do but if in a work setting, obviously it's a lot, it's actually quite difficult sometimes to like fly off the handle because you're in a work setting. Yeah. So you can just be kind of like,

but eventually they will just run out of steam. I've started listening to and I would recommend everyone listen if you don't already. The TED Talks podcast, which is just like 10 minutes to 18 minutes of like just good hot fun. Just good hot learning. Like learning from someone who knows their business. One of them was how to argue more effectively. And it was basically you said about first find common ground. the first thing, find something

that you both fundamentally agree and then work on from there. The idea is not to shout down the other person. The idea is to understand the other person's point of view fully listen and then like offer alternatives. Because if you're debating, you get told whether you're going to be for or against a topic. So everyone who

debates properly has like learned how to debate for or against anything. Yeah, you just get given it and you might not actually believe in it. Yeah. Yeah. Since we're deep in the art of war, there's some more phrases. Never leave a man No level of a man behind, of course. Divide and conquer.

It's a technique for somebody in a position of power. If my position of power is actually quite weak at the moment and if people below me really paid attention, they could quite easily topple me. My job now is like, so say you and Colin. You and Colin and Paul. Okay, I was something Dickin. You and Colin.

Sure, sure, sure. And Dickon, the four of you are below me. I'm your line manager. I'm very Get back on ball Sorry So I then start being to like Apparently Dickham

Thanks you're a bitch And then I like Start saying like Colin Apparently Paul and Stevie having a row And I just constantly feed all this So you're so busy Infighting Infighting that you even don't even look at me

You know It is clever isn't it Yeah It's so sly Where people sort of drop in pay discrepancies Yeah So then suddenly everyone's devastated That so and so is like 20

and are like more than so intensive. They're so busy talking about that and that doesn't concern the boss, that concerns the finance director or whatever. So then the shit boss is, gets off scot free. Oh, Scott free, yeah. Because you're so busy fighting about,

I'm sure there's another name for it when you, there's obviously a much bigger problem but you give people a more tangible thing to fight about. Yeah. You see actual politics, people do it all the time. Yeah, yeah. When people, you know, anytime that, you know, we're rowing about some funny thing that Trump said,

a hundred percent some backbench policy is getting through while no one's paying any attention. Yeah. He's banning clocks. Yeah, the clocks are down we didn't even notice because we were too busy being like, but is his hair real like that? And so... This is hair real, that. And so, like, massive, massive issue with page grab and see

but let's argue about like the type of milk in the fridge and like, someone's head there. And now... Yeah, so's stealing milk. That's like a classic, isn't it? Who's been stealing the milk? Exactly. And maybe people put up those signs but no one's actually been stealing the milk. And now everyone's too busy fighting about that. Stevie, maybe we could get into being Machiavellian.

I think I should do that. I'd like give a quick go. Let's do it. Let's get a temporary job. And let's give a... Pop in. See if we can rise, how quickly we can rise to power. Yeah.

That's the thing. You do have to be totally like Francis Underwood about it. You do have to just like... You have to want power. You have to want power sort of for its own sake. And you have to want the rides for the sake of the rise. You have to enjoy that. But there is also an element of you do want a promotion and a better job.

So I think people can slip in to act. acting like Francis Underwood. We're talking about House of Cards, by the way. Disgross actor, Kevin Spacey. And you sort of have to... You have to be careful that you don't do it, basically. Because if you're desperate for a job and it's, like, got your name written on it and then someone else...

I didn't give it a try. Yeah, okay, fine. We've completely won't... We've come... I'm going to go back to the definitions of narcissists. How to be a narcissist. My only other word that I've learned... Oh, yeah. War. War.

Sandbagging. That sounds like a sex thing. Doesn't it? couldn't sound more like a sex thing. What sex thing would it be? It'd be something like flopping your balls against a window or something. What alone? Sandbagging.

There's weirder things, isn't there? I think it's, um, you crouch behind someone and you plop your balls on their forehead. From behind? Yeah, of course. So you flop the balls. The persons lay on the bed. Oh, they're laid backwards. I thought they were like stood up or sat down and then you come behind them.

Okay, so here I am. On the sofa, then someone comes and just pops the balls on the forehead. Sandbagging. Sandbagging. Next episode will be How to Sandbag. How to Sandbag. But what is it in terms of it? of war certainly it means I don't quite know what the correlation is with actual war

but the term means to deliberately underperform so to deliberately oh I know people who do that oh and then and then just at the last minute at the last minute and it was like you are so so imprude you're such improved yeah right so that is sandbagging you can do it to and I think in some ways it could be very useful for example if you have like a if you're a builder and you say we think the job will be done in February. I think they sandbag all the time. Yeah, but then really you think you be done less than that, in which case everyone's like, oh, we're thrilled.

We came in under budget and under time. But really, you just sandbagged it, which I think it's quite a reasonable thing to do. Yes, freelancers will often do it as well. I don't do this, I get a deadline and I have to write an article, but if you're paid by the day for something, you're like, oh, well, yeah, it might take a month, and then you sandbag it, and then it takes like a month and a half,

and you get paid an extra half months wage by, like, being like, oh, I haven't been able to actually get it done because it's much more of a bigger job. Is that sandbagging? I lost confidence. No, no, no. Sorry if I was giving you a face of non-confidence. No, no, no.

I think you're right. I think that's exactly it. To say the underperformance would be either like for more money or exactly that for promotion or something or to impress people, you know, to like, what an improvement. Yeah. And somebody in your team might sandbag you by...

Just all in big about the balls. floppy balls on the forehead, they might deliberately underperform to make your project look worse. Oh, as in they're working with you. You're working together something and you think... Oh my God, like on The Apprentice? Yes, exactly right. So like, she was a terrible project manager. Yeah, exactly, Stevie.

Oh my God. So when only, when you know you're saying, if you're shitty for the project manager and the project as a whole is bad, you can point the finger and get rid of somebody. Very clever. Very clever stuff. I can do it again. Do it again. We're all in. Come on.

We're so in now. And very final thing, it's just about if you have somebody who is always tooting their own horn on saying the things that they've done, make sure you find a way to do the same thing. So even though you're like, oh my God, so boastful, so rude and like this is a bit of a gender stereotype

but often women are not as good about like saying the things they've done or like, because it sounds braggie and we've been very carefully taught to be quiet and like, you know, don't say anything. But I just find a classy way of like reporting to your boss each week the things that you've done. Otherwise, if you are lost. Yeah, if you get lost,

because if you are a less observant boss who doesn't have the time and one of your employees is putting everyday stops, it's like, by the way, I closed that deal or I got this, every time you see them in the lift, and the other one doesn't say anything.

To your mind, you're like, well, this guy is doing the better job. You know, even though their work may be exactly the same, you're like, well, this one's being more vocal and more, I've been more aware of this. And so just be like, even though you're like,

oh, it shouldn't be this way. The world is not fair. We don't live there. Yeah, it'd be nice. Like in the favourite, when Emisdain goes like, oh sorry, I've just got to chill because I picked those weeds for your leg. Yeah, exactly. Oh, that was you?

And you're like, gross, but very clever. Gross but clever, you know. So basically just cough and say you pick weeds of people's legs. Yeah, exactly. That's mine. For Queen Anne's gout. Yeah, it's gross, but like, ultimately you can be totally moral and live in the corner furious and bitching.

because that's the thing you aren't happy, you know, it's made you cross. Or you can, like, get in the game a bit and... Get in the game. Get in the game. I'd put your toe in. I think the take-home is, yeah, put your toe in the game. And at least be a wet... Once you know what other people are doing, you're like, okay, I feel much more like...

Oh, I see a soundbagger. Yeah. Like, I see. Put your balls on someone's face. Put your balls on their face. Recognise if they're a psychopath, maybe do it a bit. Have a bit of a go. But don't do anything that makes you feel like a dick, I think.

That's the main thing. And 101 is find a friend. Find a friend. Find a friend. Don't necessarily call them a workwife. No. And if you're absolutely scraping the barrel, that's fine. Just anyone will do. Anyone will do. Just like... Don't say that to the...

The nicest person you can find. Yeah. And that might be quite low. But that's fine. Just anyone that gets you in the day. Yeah, and don't say that. Don't say that. We'll never be friends outside the workplace. But yeah, if you have any... If you have any ideas for future podcast episodes, tweet us at Novoipanacepad. At Stevie M. The S is a 5. That's me. That's Tessacote. That's me. That's Tessacotes over there.

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